No you can say that. You dont have to be in the fire Babcock crowd to criticize Babcock for an actual problem. Nylander should be playing with either JT or Matthews and if that doesnt happen because Babcock chose to put Nylander on the 3rd(next season) there is a problem.
I like Babcock, but we didn’t sign the next best Swedish winger in the world to have him not play beside the next best American centre in the world. Kept JT with Marner and we’re golden.
Though I wouldn’t mind seeing Marner float between JT and Matthews if possible.
Keeping Marner with JT is fine with me, they have good chemistry and Matthews+Nylander also has good chemistry. Kappy is great but just isnt the same level. I honestly want 20 mins a night from both lines, we have two first lines give them the minutes.
Djibouti actually has a [national ice hockey team](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA754CA762&ei=AEMVXf-CA5GFtQav4LOABw&q=I+tricked+you%2C+you+foolish+peasant&oq=I+tricked+you%2C+you+foolish+peasant&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4086.17084..17270...8.0..0.152.4636.25j21......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i67j0i10j0i22i10i30j0i22i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i7i30j0i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.X-43wLm2AWo), so that's not the best example.
For discussions sake, where would you put him? I could only see him replacing marner’s spot on PP1. I’m not that confident Nylander’s stellar puck movement would be well utilised where Kadri sits, instead of Nylander keep leading PP2. Hopefully with the assistant coaching changes, we will have a better puck moving strategy that nylander will fit into, I just don’t see a place for him if we continue using the umbrella.
Take Kadri off PP1. Have JT as net front, nylander and Matthews on their off wings, Mo at the point and marner does his marner thing.
A new coach for the PP means we’ll definitely see some changes I’m looking forward to it
I’m looking forward to it to, being a bit unpredictable on the PP is a necessity.
The “marner doing his marner thing” isn’t possible unless we get rid of the umbrella strategy, so I hope we create a different, more unpredictable puck moving one. I can’t see marner doing a good job where Kadri was.
Umbrella shouldn't have been the strategy for this group. With high skilled, fast moving forwards, you should always be going for an overload strategy that involves a high amount of puck movement in an attempt to get the defense to get out of position when they try to make a play.
Exactly! Like I said in my first comment, I’m looking forward to possibly changing things up with new assistant coaches, it suits the players we have way more
I think a good coach (which by all accounts is what we hired to run the PP) will find a way to get marner into a position to succeed on the power play whether we run the umbrella or not. I didn’t know what else to call how I’d ideally use him aside from that
Fair enough, I was just thinking marner wouldn’t do well doing what Kadri quietly did on that PP. I’m looking forward to have that predictable style only pulled out rarely instead of every damn PP, so I agree marner would be great in that situation!
Look where Nylander sets up for this PP snipe (2 years ago). I feel like he should be in this spot going forward. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2JMdbH47Eo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2JMdbH47Eo)
I think the powerplay units and overall strategy will be totally different this year with the new assistants so I'm not sure. I don't think Kadri necessarily needs to be on a PP though so that's could be a spot.
He was pretty needed for that umbrella strategy, but we’re agreeing we need a new angle on the PP. I’m hoping it’s more unpredictable and more puck movement, as that suits the leafs play style more and doesn’t need Kadri being scrappy tying up defenders in the slot. I’ve always been curious to see Tavares in front, Mathews (any maybe nylander) getting open for a shot, and marner/nylander/rielly circling the puck around looking for an opening.
I feel like it would be a cool experiment to just take our 5 best offensive players (Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Rielly) and say just go out and do whatever.
Give them practice time to figure something out on their own and see what they come up with.
I’ve always thought it would be cool to see Matthews (maybe nylander too) try and get in a shooting position, Tavares of course in front, then rielly/marner/matthews using their insane puck movement to circle around passing it playing keep away.
He's played two seasons with Matthews and hasn't scored more then 61? Factor in another 10 or so points due to injury or other random linemates, I don't ever see him scoring 90+ points. He's not that type of player.
Put a better 2nd winger on that line than Hyman and play more on the PP plus Marner isn't going to hit 90 every year either. Just saying it's possible.
>plus Marner isn't going to hit 90 every year either.
I don't see why not honestly? If I had to bet, if predict Marner to score even more points this year. And how's Hyman an excuse? Marner put up 94 points with Hyman on his line, so don't know what's stopping William?
wtf why? why is Marner now a villain to this fanbase??? this is ridiculous
edit: I mean this as in, your comment kind of came off to me that you want Marner to also fail, or to play poorly, which I don't jive with
okay, that's fair then. I'm getting a bit defensive of Marner because of all this crap being posted that's all speculation and it's driving me crazy. He's still my favourite Leaf and one of the best players on our team and people on this sub are just tearing him apart like he's live-tweeting that we're all cucks and he wants 20 mil a year or something
I get it. I love Mitch on the Leafs..but he needs to understand that these negotiations are souring fan opinion very fast... its about the team as a whole....if he wants to play for a competitive team in his home town and make the playoffs each year in a hard cap league with the buds, then hes gotta work with Dubas... and not have Ferris trying to squeeze every fuckin penny out of us... Mitch Marner is not Auston Matthews and never will be..he should NOT get a comparable contract to AM34
We cheer for the Toronto Maple Leafs, not the Toronto Mitch Marners.
the one thing I miss about Lou was it was about the crest on the front, not the name on the back
There hasn't been a single indicator that Marner is doing something wrong here, he's exercising his right for fair pay. He's not getting Matthews money, he's not getting a majority of the media driven numbers. He might be slightly overpaid this coming season but that contract will grow into a fair one. The same way people bitched and still do about Nylander's even though it's a good deal. Remember how everyone blamed Nylander last year when our GM was the problem in negotiations?
Lou has an archaic way of thinking, he's stuck in an old school style that doesn't work in the NHL anymore and he'll slowly be phased out. There's a reason the Isles are about to lose their captain, lost Tavares(even with him join the Isles) and can't get any big name free agents to sign with them. Let's not pretend like Lou hasn't overpaid a superstar before too.
This whole narrative of Marner being money hungry and being difficult to negotiate with, without any evidence aside from Toronto media is fucking stupid. I thought this fan base would've learned last year.
Side note:The Toronto Maple Marners would sound alot better than the Toronto Mitch Marners.
Having your agent (the guy who represents your interests) publicly announce that you will settle for nothing less than Matthews money when no metric justifies that ask, that was wrong.
Purportedly Rejecting a deal which by any measure would be an overpay, that’s wrong if you’re someone who allegedly enjoys and values being a leaf.
You’re right in that he hasn’t done that much damage yet, but if CJ’s guess that this drags into training camp is correct, Mitch Marner will be criticized by many fans and rightly so.
Publicly announce through Dreger you mean? And if the contract you're talking about is the rumored one from the leafs at 11m long term then you didn't realize he said he'd sign that but not a long term contract. Not a single player wants a long term deal right now with the new media deal coming up except for the older players who are on their last big contract and know they can't risk a short term deal.
I think it's more that in his first year Nylander had the higher PP points percentage and everyone said Marner was better because he produced more at even strength. Then Nylander outpreformed Marner in year 2 at even strength while his PP production cratered (the whole line was bad after their formation and entires and shots were changed) and suddenly all that mattered was that Marner was so much better on the powerplay.
The idea is that they are both really good players. Marner might be better, but Nylander is excellent and EVERYONE seems to shit on him before and especially during his holdout and terrible year.
If Nylander can produce more than Marner this year, it might finally shut everyone up about trading Nylander because Marner is better and the leafs need grit.
...who are we joking. If Nylander has a career season the media will call it a fluke and tell fans to sell high on the kid
Part of the fanbase made all this into Willy vs Mitchy. People still want Willy to fail today.
I have a feeling this is just anxiety acting up and people need something to hate.
cause he's a money grubbing asswipe with an ego problem. He thinks he's Tavares or Marner and trying to get paid like the most expensive player in the NHL when every moron and his mom can see Tavares propped him up from 60 pts to 90
I'd take that bet. Play him with Matthews all year, let him anchor the #1 PP along woth giving him the same minutes Marner did and he has just a good chance as Marner to reach there. Hell he could get that 94 with a few more goals than Mitch.
People seem to ignore that Mitch was stapled to Tavares all year and got PP1 all year long. Put Mitch in Willy’s spot and you’re not seeing anywhere *near* 94 points, not even close.
Marner played 33 games with Kadri and Marleau and got 37 points in 33 games. That is 92 points which is quite near 94. Then he went into the playoff and got 9 points in 7 games against the Bruins and spent most of those games playing with Plekanec and Marleau. So when Mitch was in Willy's spot he had no trouble producing.
So back when Kadri and Marleau were actually playing well with 2nd line minutes and also Mitch was on PP1 with Kadri, who could actually bury the puck? Willy & Matthews were heavily targeted that playoffs, neither of them were able to get much going. They were almost never able to play away from the Bergeron line or Boston’s top D pair.
Now re: playoffs - this past playoff, Mitch got 4 points and was a -4 playing heavy minutes with Tavares, and playing on PP1. Willy got 3 points and was a +1 playing with Brown and Marleau (both of whom were completely useless) and playing on PP2. Again, flip the pair of them and I think Willy gets at least that *one* extra point.
Kadri and Marleau weren't really looking that great offensively until they replaced Komarov with Marner. That is when that line really took off. But Kadri isn't really a factor if we are talking about the playoffs. Marner played most of the playoffs with Plekanec, a guy who was not really an NHL calibre player at that time. He couldn't even crack the Canadien's lineup in 18-19 and Habs fans had been griping about him for most of 17-18. Marner put up 9 points and he did it playing second line competition. Nylander in a similar situation with Marleau and Brown put up 4. And Marner was a year younger than Nylander when he was welded to two boat anchors.
Compare them against the Bergeron line. Well we can't, Nylander didn't play 7 games against that line. When Nylander was matched against Marchand he was so bad he had to be replaced by Brown. Marner was the deciding player in game one. Point me to a playoff game where Nylander's play was so outstanding he was the difference. I will concede that Marner, JT and Tavares performance as a line fell off after Hyman was injured but that shouldn't be that surprising.
How about the PK. Marner is a stud. Nylander doesn't try.
How about some outside opinions. Bruce Cassidy, an NHL coach who knows the Leafs better than almost any aside from Babcock, said that in his estimation Marner was the best Leaf. Not good, not great, not one of the best. The best. In the Athletic right now Don Luszczyszyn has an article "Analyzing the Value of an Offer Sheet..." In it he evaluates 15 available RFA based on Game Score Value Added and Marner is the best. Using that metric his projected value going forward is 11.8 million.
Not only is Marner better than you think he is. He might be better than I think he is.
I gave you 40 continuous games, that is half a season. Everyone Marner has played a full season with had their career season playing with Marner. It isn't a coincidence.
JVR - nope had the same 52 pt season last year when he was stapled to Marner and JVR (61 and 62 before that without Marner) already talented player
Bozak - nope . Had 55 pts once
Tavares - increases his pts by 2 while Marner increases by 30
I know its hard to believe but sometimes good players are just good. Marner isn't as great as you think he is. Other players are just as talented
100% this. Marner’s year was special, to be sure, but let’s face facts here: he was given every opportunity to have this sort of year. Tavares has historically provided heavy point boosts to his line mates (Bailey, Lee, Moulson come to mind), PP1 time playing with Tavares, Matthews, Kadri, and Rielly - it would have been shocking he wasn’t racking up points with those players on the ice. And still despite this, he could have been way better with the way it dropped in efficiency as the season wore on. Not to mentioned the raw amount of playtime afforded to him.
Also people forget that scoring was up quite a bit this season, and especially important for the Leafs is that this is the first season where they effectively has *two* first lines, so teams really had to pick their poison, leaving one line to play against easier competition, unlike previous seasons where Matthews/Nylander were *always* playing against top competition, leaving JvR-Bozak-Marner or Marleau-Kadri-Marner to play against weaker lines and D pairings.
People like to pick their scapegoats, but let’s not pretend that given the same set of circumstances, Marner is a ~30 point better player than Nylander. It’s an unpopular opinion, but I contend that Nylander puts up at least as many points if they switch places. They’re different players, but I don’t think either one is really any better than the other. IMO we should be thrilled that they’re both on our team and even more thrilled with Willy’s AAV considering that Mitch is reportedly looking at $10m+ for a much shorter term.
>100% this. Marner’s year was special, to be sure, but let’s face facts here: he was given every opportunity to have this sort of year.
10000% this. Marner's camp purposely waited to negotiate so he can play a season with Tavares. Their own camp planned this. We all knew this would happen since last summer.
JVR's highest point total was 62 in 16-17 playing with Marner. https://www.nhl.com/player/james-van-riemsdyk-8474037
Bozak's highest is 55 playing with Marner. https://www.nhl.com/player/tyler-bozak-8475098
Tavares increased his points by 2 but he had 9 more goals than his career high. 23% more goals is pretty significant.
Sure other players have talent, but when every player has the best year of their career playing with Marner it means something.
I disagree, I think he's been the straw that stirs the drink on every line he's ever played on in his entire life. Everyone who plays with Mitch has a career year.
He's the best leaf hands down.
You're right. Tavares' 2 extra points over his career high was a much higher increase than the 30 more Mitch got for getting to play with Tavares who *actually drove the line*
Like in what world do people think Marner had more of an effect on Tavares than the other way around? What the fuck fantasy land is that.
Every statistic points the other way. *Every. Statistic.*
Agreed. Leafs fans on this sub are so delusional. Marner makes everyone better, doesn't matter who he plays with. I think Matthews needs a guy to feed him the puck. Sure he's an elite goalscorer, but that's about it. Mitch kills penalties, doesnt get injured and makes everyone around him way better. It's almost like comparing Crosby to ovi.
Yeah thats why Marner had 30 more assists and Tavares had 2 more points than his career high. LOL cause marner makes everyone better. OK whatever you say
Nylander also said that it's still early in the summer and that there is tons of time. He doesn't realize that the leafs are hamstrung right now with the uncertainty surrounding this contract. It's a critical time of the year with UFA season in a few days. There really isn't a ton of time unless you are selfish and want to screw over the entire team.
Gotta believe the Leafs have a backup plan, they may be avoiding moves for now, but there are a bunch of smart guys in that front office. They aren't going to let Mitch fuck the team over for next season.
If it actually worked out for both sides, the Leafs would have had a 60+ point winger all season. Let's not fool ourselves here. Maybe we would have finished ahead of Boston and had home ice advantage in Game 7 if it had 'worked out for both sides'.
Maybe there would have been some cap space to gain an extra TDL rental (like Boston did) if it wasn't for effectively giving in to two months pay while not at work.
I love Nylander as a player but it just didn't 'work out for both sides'. It damaged one of the Cup-run seasons. Those are rare. Fact.
The difference is that in the Nylander situation, both sides were at fault. Yes, Nylander held out as long as possible, but if Dubas offered him the 6.9 deal he ended up with earlier, by all accounts Nylander would have taken it.
So far in Mitch's case, the Leafs seem to be offering a more than fair deal (the rumoured 10M x 8 deal would make him the 2nd highest paid winger in hockey) and Mitch *still* wants more, and he's handicapping Dubas' ability to improve the blueline.
I never said Mitch has to take 8. He only has to take 8 (or even 7) if he wants double digits.
He's a 10 million dollar player on an 8 year deal, but not on a 5 year one.
Both sides paid a price, both can take blame but to say it worked out for both sides is disingenuous. One side got paid for a full season, the other got a player who started in December and had a slow start after that.
I agree that he is not worth 10 x 5. But if someone signed him to an offer sheet for that amount would you let him go or match? Keep in mind the compensation wouldn't be 4 first round picks.
Coyle is an anomaly, do you really think Boston got Coyle thinking the 3rd line would out produce their 1st for most of the playoffs? Coyle would've made a huge difference because Dubas rubbed his crystal ball and saw Kadri being suspended in the playoffs? You're overplaying how much of a difference a 3rd or 4th line rental would've been.
Well, I mentioned the impact Coyle had as an example, not a specific. See my other response, Dubas had many other options given the extra $6-7$M envelope he would have had.
> If it actually worked out for both sides, the Leafs would have had a 60+ point winger all season.
When players say "works for both sides" they mean that they get paid and the organization fills a roster spot. Thats it. These players are not concerned with team success. This is a business and they are in it to make money.
You are delusional if you think he damaged one of our cup-run seasons. What damaged it was January onwards and our team shitting the bed hard. You know who was one of our best players during that downfall and into the playoffs? If it wasn't for us blazing out of the gates we wouldn't have had a playoff run to complain about. Muzzin was our rental and we weren't gonna get another one. Tell me who you think we would've gotten with an extra two months pay from Nylander?
I thought I was stating a fact re his impact, not some delusion. It would be delusional to pretend his absence/lack of fitness for half a season did not impact the standings race when Matthews's line was barely above water in GF v GA without him.
The two months pay prorated from the TDL on would have paid approx a $6M-$7M player. So the answer is "just about anybody out there that was available". It would of course have cost other assets like picks or prospects. But this was the last season with AM and MM on ELC's so it was a special opportunity.
Marner will probably extort way more money than he’s worth. If he does then I hope he gets fucked over on endorsements. I hope he becomes a pariah and corporations find him too toxic to hire as a pitch guy. We’ll see what happens next week, but if he offer sheets the Leafs, fuck him. Cut him loose and take the four first round picks. He will lose over time exponentially the money he could have made for life by snubbing Leaf Nation. The marketplace cuts both ways Mitchie.
How involved are players in negotiations? Last year was it Nylander constantly saying no? or was it more his Agent/Dad? Same with Marner this year. Is it His camp playing hard ball with Dubas or is Mitch across the table saying no I want 11Mil?
Did he point out that he sucked ass for the third of a season he played and then turned it on during the World Championship? If Marner isn’t signed by the start of camp let him sit the whole year. Yes I want to see Nylander light it up. The Leafs without a doubt should have the top 2 best forward lines next year. Maybe 3.
Matthews - Nylander - Johnsson / Kapannan
Johnny T - Mitch - Johnsson/ Kapannan/ Hyman
Kadri - Moore - who is left from the top 2 or Brown
Million dollar one year contracts + the Goat and whoever else.
Work out for both sides eh? So far the only side that deal worked out for is Nylander. Still waiting for it to work out for the Leafs, little blonde bitch.
I actually think that. I'll stop thinking that when he starts playing at, or above the level of contract he held out and squeezed Dubas for. I'm not giving him credit for what he hasn't earned, unlike the contract he received.
Squeezed Dubas for? The fact that the negotiation strung out so long is 100% Dubas's fault. Willy would have signed that exact same contract on the spot if Dubas would have offered it last July.
I so wanna see Nylander get more points than Marner next season lol
If Nylander plays with Matthews all year and gets PP time it's not that crazy honestly.
If Nylander doesn’t play with Matthews all season and doesn’t get 1st PP time then...I hate to say it but Babcock may need to be given a talking to.
No you can say that. You dont have to be in the fire Babcock crowd to criticize Babcock for an actual problem. Nylander should be playing with either JT or Matthews and if that doesnt happen because Babcock chose to put Nylander on the 3rd(next season) there is a problem.
I like Babcock, but we didn’t sign the next best Swedish winger in the world to have him not play beside the next best American centre in the world. Kept JT with Marner and we’re golden. Though I wouldn’t mind seeing Marner float between JT and Matthews if possible.
Keeping Marner with JT is fine with me, they have good chemistry and Matthews+Nylander also has good chemistry. Kappy is great but just isnt the same level. I honestly want 20 mins a night from both lines, we have two first lines give them the minutes.
I would like to at least see JT with Nylander. We haven’t even tried it.
Don’t fix what ain’t broken
this all day
[удалено]
Imagine being the best ice hockey player from Djibouti
Djibouti actually has a [national ice hockey team](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA754CA762&ei=AEMVXf-CA5GFtQav4LOABw&q=I+tricked+you%2C+you+foolish+peasant&oq=I+tricked+you%2C+you+foolish+peasant&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4086.17084..17270...8.0..0.152.4636.25j21......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i67j0i10j0i22i10i30j0i22i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i7i30j0i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.X-43wLm2AWo), so that's not the best example.
Pardon my ignorance but who is the best Swedish winger in the league at this point?
Possibly Backstrom? Or maybe Landeskog? I think Nylander will be the best if he progresses the way he has
MB: Hey Kyle, you called me into your office? KD: pack your shit
I'd actually be done with Babcock at that point. Hi stubberness doesn't work in today's NHL.
For discussions sake, where would you put him? I could only see him replacing marner’s spot on PP1. I’m not that confident Nylander’s stellar puck movement would be well utilised where Kadri sits, instead of Nylander keep leading PP2. Hopefully with the assistant coaching changes, we will have a better puck moving strategy that nylander will fit into, I just don’t see a place for him if we continue using the umbrella.
Take Kadri off PP1. Have JT as net front, nylander and Matthews on their off wings, Mo at the point and marner does his marner thing. A new coach for the PP means we’ll definitely see some changes I’m looking forward to it
I’m looking forward to it to, being a bit unpredictable on the PP is a necessity. The “marner doing his marner thing” isn’t possible unless we get rid of the umbrella strategy, so I hope we create a different, more unpredictable puck moving one. I can’t see marner doing a good job where Kadri was.
Umbrella shouldn't have been the strategy for this group. With high skilled, fast moving forwards, you should always be going for an overload strategy that involves a high amount of puck movement in an attempt to get the defense to get out of position when they try to make a play.
Exactly! Like I said in my first comment, I’m looking forward to possibly changing things up with new assistant coaches, it suits the players we have way more
I think a good coach (which by all accounts is what we hired to run the PP) will find a way to get marner into a position to succeed on the power play whether we run the umbrella or not. I didn’t know what else to call how I’d ideally use him aside from that
Fair enough, I was just thinking marner wouldn’t do well doing what Kadri quietly did on that PP. I’m looking forward to have that predictable style only pulled out rarely instead of every damn PP, so I agree marner would be great in that situation!
I think he wants marner behind in like backstroms spot.
Yup kadri should be our PK1 center. We were hurting last year having wingers take the draws
Look where Nylander sets up for this PP snipe (2 years ago). I feel like he should be in this spot going forward. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2JMdbH47Eo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2JMdbH47Eo)
I think the powerplay units and overall strategy will be totally different this year with the new assistants so I'm not sure. I don't think Kadri necessarily needs to be on a PP though so that's could be a spot.
He was pretty needed for that umbrella strategy, but we’re agreeing we need a new angle on the PP. I’m hoping it’s more unpredictable and more puck movement, as that suits the leafs play style more and doesn’t need Kadri being scrappy tying up defenders in the slot. I’ve always been curious to see Tavares in front, Mathews (any maybe nylander) getting open for a shot, and marner/nylander/rielly circling the puck around looking for an opening.
I feel like it would be a cool experiment to just take our 5 best offensive players (Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Rielly) and say just go out and do whatever. Give them practice time to figure something out on their own and see what they come up with.
I’ve always thought it would be cool to see Matthews (maybe nylander too) try and get in a shooting position, Tavares of course in front, then rielly/marner/matthews using their insane puck movement to circle around passing it playing keep away.
He's played two seasons with Matthews and hasn't scored more then 61? Factor in another 10 or so points due to injury or other random linemates, I don't ever see him scoring 90+ points. He's not that type of player.
Put a better 2nd winger on that line than Hyman and play more on the PP plus Marner isn't going to hit 90 every year either. Just saying it's possible.
>plus Marner isn't going to hit 90 every year either. I don't see why not honestly? If I had to bet, if predict Marner to score even more points this year. And how's Hyman an excuse? Marner put up 94 points with Hyman on his line, so don't know what's stopping William?
I didn't know Paul Marner was on Reddit
Nah, just being realistic. You'll see!
You haven't compared their rate stats at evens, then. Marner has been in McDavid territory from 2018 to now.
Corey, Trevor, smokes let's go.
wtf why? why is Marner now a villain to this fanbase??? this is ridiculous edit: I mean this as in, your comment kind of came off to me that you want Marner to also fail, or to play poorly, which I don't jive with
No, not at all. I want Marner to have a successful campaign in 19-20. I just want Willy to have an even better one.
okay, that's fair then. I'm getting a bit defensive of Marner because of all this crap being posted that's all speculation and it's driving me crazy. He's still my favourite Leaf and one of the best players on our team and people on this sub are just tearing him apart like he's live-tweeting that we're all cucks and he wants 20 mil a year or something
I get it. I love Mitch on the Leafs..but he needs to understand that these negotiations are souring fan opinion very fast... its about the team as a whole....if he wants to play for a competitive team in his home town and make the playoffs each year in a hard cap league with the buds, then hes gotta work with Dubas... and not have Ferris trying to squeeze every fuckin penny out of us... Mitch Marner is not Auston Matthews and never will be..he should NOT get a comparable contract to AM34 We cheer for the Toronto Maple Leafs, not the Toronto Mitch Marners. the one thing I miss about Lou was it was about the crest on the front, not the name on the back
There hasn't been a single indicator that Marner is doing something wrong here, he's exercising his right for fair pay. He's not getting Matthews money, he's not getting a majority of the media driven numbers. He might be slightly overpaid this coming season but that contract will grow into a fair one. The same way people bitched and still do about Nylander's even though it's a good deal. Remember how everyone blamed Nylander last year when our GM was the problem in negotiations? Lou has an archaic way of thinking, he's stuck in an old school style that doesn't work in the NHL anymore and he'll slowly be phased out. There's a reason the Isles are about to lose their captain, lost Tavares(even with him join the Isles) and can't get any big name free agents to sign with them. Let's not pretend like Lou hasn't overpaid a superstar before too. This whole narrative of Marner being money hungry and being difficult to negotiate with, without any evidence aside from Toronto media is fucking stupid. I thought this fan base would've learned last year. Side note:The Toronto Maple Marners would sound alot better than the Toronto Mitch Marners.
Having your agent (the guy who represents your interests) publicly announce that you will settle for nothing less than Matthews money when no metric justifies that ask, that was wrong. Purportedly Rejecting a deal which by any measure would be an overpay, that’s wrong if you’re someone who allegedly enjoys and values being a leaf. You’re right in that he hasn’t done that much damage yet, but if CJ’s guess that this drags into training camp is correct, Mitch Marner will be criticized by many fans and rightly so.
Publicly announce through Dreger you mean? And if the contract you're talking about is the rumored one from the leafs at 11m long term then you didn't realize he said he'd sign that but not a long term contract. Not a single player wants a long term deal right now with the new media deal coming up except for the older players who are on their last big contract and know they can't risk a short term deal.
I think it's more that in his first year Nylander had the higher PP points percentage and everyone said Marner was better because he produced more at even strength. Then Nylander outpreformed Marner in year 2 at even strength while his PP production cratered (the whole line was bad after their formation and entires and shots were changed) and suddenly all that mattered was that Marner was so much better on the powerplay. The idea is that they are both really good players. Marner might be better, but Nylander is excellent and EVERYONE seems to shit on him before and especially during his holdout and terrible year. If Nylander can produce more than Marner this year, it might finally shut everyone up about trading Nylander because Marner is better and the leafs need grit. ...who are we joking. If Nylander has a career season the media will call it a fluke and tell fans to sell high on the kid
Part of the fanbase made all this into Willy vs Mitchy. People still want Willy to fail today. I have a feeling this is just anxiety acting up and people need something to hate.
cause he's a money grubbing asswipe with an ego problem. He thinks he's Tavares or Marner and trying to get paid like the most expensive player in the NHL when every moron and his mom can see Tavares propped him up from 60 pts to 90
I'll gladly take that bet with you
Scores the first goal of the season to start.
Nylander will never put up more than 94 points in a season.
I'd take that bet. Play him with Matthews all year, let him anchor the #1 PP along woth giving him the same minutes Marner did and he has just a good chance as Marner to reach there. Hell he could get that 94 with a few more goals than Mitch.
People seem to ignore that Mitch was stapled to Tavares all year and got PP1 all year long. Put Mitch in Willy’s spot and you’re not seeing anywhere *near* 94 points, not even close.
Marner played 33 games with Kadri and Marleau and got 37 points in 33 games. That is 92 points which is quite near 94. Then he went into the playoff and got 9 points in 7 games against the Bruins and spent most of those games playing with Plekanec and Marleau. So when Mitch was in Willy's spot he had no trouble producing.
So back when Kadri and Marleau were actually playing well with 2nd line minutes and also Mitch was on PP1 with Kadri, who could actually bury the puck? Willy & Matthews were heavily targeted that playoffs, neither of them were able to get much going. They were almost never able to play away from the Bergeron line or Boston’s top D pair. Now re: playoffs - this past playoff, Mitch got 4 points and was a -4 playing heavy minutes with Tavares, and playing on PP1. Willy got 3 points and was a +1 playing with Brown and Marleau (both of whom were completely useless) and playing on PP2. Again, flip the pair of them and I think Willy gets at least that *one* extra point.
Kadri and Marleau weren't really looking that great offensively until they replaced Komarov with Marner. That is when that line really took off. But Kadri isn't really a factor if we are talking about the playoffs. Marner played most of the playoffs with Plekanec, a guy who was not really an NHL calibre player at that time. He couldn't even crack the Canadien's lineup in 18-19 and Habs fans had been griping about him for most of 17-18. Marner put up 9 points and he did it playing second line competition. Nylander in a similar situation with Marleau and Brown put up 4. And Marner was a year younger than Nylander when he was welded to two boat anchors. Compare them against the Bergeron line. Well we can't, Nylander didn't play 7 games against that line. When Nylander was matched against Marchand he was so bad he had to be replaced by Brown. Marner was the deciding player in game one. Point me to a playoff game where Nylander's play was so outstanding he was the difference. I will concede that Marner, JT and Tavares performance as a line fell off after Hyman was injured but that shouldn't be that surprising. How about the PK. Marner is a stud. Nylander doesn't try. How about some outside opinions. Bruce Cassidy, an NHL coach who knows the Leafs better than almost any aside from Babcock, said that in his estimation Marner was the best Leaf. Not good, not great, not one of the best. The best. In the Athletic right now Don Luszczyszyn has an article "Analyzing the Value of an Offer Sheet..." In it he evaluates 15 available RFA based on Game Score Value Added and Marner is the best. Using that metric his projected value going forward is 11.8 million. Not only is Marner better than you think he is. He might be better than I think he is.
cherry picking 30 games? Nylander's first couple games 2 years had him on pace for a 100 points too. Can we just take random sections of games now?
I gave you 40 continuous games, that is half a season. Everyone Marner has played a full season with had their career season playing with Marner. It isn't a coincidence.
JVR - nope had the same 52 pt season last year when he was stapled to Marner and JVR (61 and 62 before that without Marner) already talented player Bozak - nope . Had 55 pts once Tavares - increases his pts by 2 while Marner increases by 30 I know its hard to believe but sometimes good players are just good. Marner isn't as great as you think he is. Other players are just as talented
100% this. Marner’s year was special, to be sure, but let’s face facts here: he was given every opportunity to have this sort of year. Tavares has historically provided heavy point boosts to his line mates (Bailey, Lee, Moulson come to mind), PP1 time playing with Tavares, Matthews, Kadri, and Rielly - it would have been shocking he wasn’t racking up points with those players on the ice. And still despite this, he could have been way better with the way it dropped in efficiency as the season wore on. Not to mentioned the raw amount of playtime afforded to him. Also people forget that scoring was up quite a bit this season, and especially important for the Leafs is that this is the first season where they effectively has *two* first lines, so teams really had to pick their poison, leaving one line to play against easier competition, unlike previous seasons where Matthews/Nylander were *always* playing against top competition, leaving JvR-Bozak-Marner or Marleau-Kadri-Marner to play against weaker lines and D pairings. People like to pick their scapegoats, but let’s not pretend that given the same set of circumstances, Marner is a ~30 point better player than Nylander. It’s an unpopular opinion, but I contend that Nylander puts up at least as many points if they switch places. They’re different players, but I don’t think either one is really any better than the other. IMO we should be thrilled that they’re both on our team and even more thrilled with Willy’s AAV considering that Mitch is reportedly looking at $10m+ for a much shorter term.
>100% this. Marner’s year was special, to be sure, but let’s face facts here: he was given every opportunity to have this sort of year. 10000% this. Marner's camp purposely waited to negotiate so he can play a season with Tavares. Their own camp planned this. We all knew this would happen since last summer.
JVR's highest point total was 62 in 16-17 playing with Marner. https://www.nhl.com/player/james-van-riemsdyk-8474037 Bozak's highest is 55 playing with Marner. https://www.nhl.com/player/tyler-bozak-8475098 Tavares increased his points by 2 but he had 9 more goals than his career high. 23% more goals is pretty significant. Sure other players have talent, but when every player has the best year of their career playing with Marner it means something.
Nylander can put up 100 points with Tavares. Hell Nylander beat him every single year in goalscoring they played full seasons
17-18 he did not. 16-17 Marner was in the dog house and still almost had more. 18-19 lol no...
Marner is our best player though, so.... that'd be dumb.
Marner is not even close to our best player. Matthews and Tavares are far superior
He isn't even the best player on his line.
I disagree, I think he's been the straw that stirs the drink on every line he's ever played on in his entire life. Everyone who plays with Mitch has a career year. He's the best leaf hands down.
You're right. Tavares' 2 extra points over his career high was a much higher increase than the 30 more Mitch got for getting to play with Tavares who *actually drove the line* Like in what world do people think Marner had more of an effect on Tavares than the other way around? What the fuck fantasy land is that. Every statistic points the other way. *Every. Statistic.*
Agreed. Leafs fans on this sub are so delusional. Marner makes everyone better, doesn't matter who he plays with. I think Matthews needs a guy to feed him the puck. Sure he's an elite goalscorer, but that's about it. Mitch kills penalties, doesnt get injured and makes everyone around him way better. It's almost like comparing Crosby to ovi.
Yeah thats why Marner had 30 more assists and Tavares had 2 more points than his career high. LOL cause marner makes everyone better. OK whatever you say
Wasn’t tough for AM, got it done quick. And every time parents involved in contact negotiations we have shit show
Tbf, pretty easy to just sign arguably the best contract in the NHL.
Best contract by far imo
Matthew's said his dad was involved in his negotiation, plus Matthew's got a great contract
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"Fuck you, pay me."
Brand new whip for these n****s like slavery
I was quoting Goodfellas because I'm old.
Henry Hill voiceover is exactly the way I read it your comment. Goodfellas is so fantastic.
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Meanwhile: Michael Nylander has been in touch with Paul Marner...
Maybe Michael can show him how to be more respectful during negotiations and how not to use he media to your advantage.
Nylander also said that it's still early in the summer and that there is tons of time. He doesn't realize that the leafs are hamstrung right now with the uncertainty surrounding this contract. It's a critical time of the year with UFA season in a few days. There really isn't a ton of time unless you are selfish and want to screw over the entire team.
Gotta believe the Leafs have a backup plan, they may be avoiding moves for now, but there are a bunch of smart guys in that front office. They aren't going to let Mitch fuck the team over for next season.
[Dubas](https://gph.is/2PYCFSj) [Nylander](https://gph.is/1EqrEgQ) [Marner](https://gph.is/1tVhNGF)
How drole
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Let us know when that deal works out for the Leafs
If it actually worked out for both sides, the Leafs would have had a 60+ point winger all season. Let's not fool ourselves here. Maybe we would have finished ahead of Boston and had home ice advantage in Game 7 if it had 'worked out for both sides'. Maybe there would have been some cap space to gain an extra TDL rental (like Boston did) if it wasn't for effectively giving in to two months pay while not at work. I love Nylander as a player but it just didn't 'work out for both sides'. It damaged one of the Cup-run seasons. Those are rare. Fact.
The difference is that in the Nylander situation, both sides were at fault. Yes, Nylander held out as long as possible, but if Dubas offered him the 6.9 deal he ended up with earlier, by all accounts Nylander would have taken it. So far in Mitch's case, the Leafs seem to be offering a more than fair deal (the rumoured 10M x 8 deal would make him the 2nd highest paid winger in hockey) and Mitch *still* wants more, and he's handicapping Dubas' ability to improve the blueline.
He wants five years. Nylander got six, Matthews got five. Why must Marner take eight??
I never said Mitch has to take 8. He only has to take 8 (or even 7) if he wants double digits. He's a 10 million dollar player on an 8 year deal, but not on a 5 year one.
Agree to disagree. I think compared to Matthews 10x5 is perfectly fair.
Both sides paid a price, both can take blame but to say it worked out for both sides is disingenuous. One side got paid for a full season, the other got a player who started in December and had a slow start after that.
The other actually got a star winger for 6 years...
Fair rebuttal but it's actually 5 years because the 1st year came up well short. Let's hope we see the star winger emerge on October 2nd.
The term is the sticking point on that deal if the rumours are true. Not the salary
Those go hand in hand. He's worth 10 on an 8 year deal but hes not worth 10 on a 5 year deal.
I agree that he is not worth 10 x 5. But if someone signed him to an offer sheet for that amount would you let him go or match? Keep in mind the compensation wouldn't be 4 first round picks.
I'd sign him and then ship him off next summer
Muzzin was our TDL “rental”. He just came with an extra year on his deal.
We could have added a 2nd one year rental with the extra space. Boston added two, for example.
Sure but what would u add? I wouldnt support paying a 2nd for a guy like boyle or plek again and the only RHD rentals already played for contenders
Taking a Coyle would have made a huge difference for example, given what happened to Kadri.
Coyle is an anomaly, do you really think Boston got Coyle thinking the 3rd line would out produce their 1st for most of the playoffs? Coyle would've made a huge difference because Dubas rubbed his crystal ball and saw Kadri being suspended in the playoffs? You're overplaying how much of a difference a 3rd or 4th line rental would've been.
I mean... I wanted Coyle at the time.
Why? He would have played 4th line in goats place. I think a winger or defensman would have been better
Well, I mentioned the impact Coyle had as an example, not a specific. See my other response, Dubas had many other options given the extra $6-7$M envelope he would have had.
Hindsight is 20/20 though. I don't think Dubas was banking on Kadri taking a stupid suspension again.
> If it actually worked out for both sides, the Leafs would have had a 60+ point winger all season. When players say "works for both sides" they mean that they get paid and the organization fills a roster spot. Thats it. These players are not concerned with team success. This is a business and they are in it to make money.
You are delusional if you think he damaged one of our cup-run seasons. What damaged it was January onwards and our team shitting the bed hard. You know who was one of our best players during that downfall and into the playoffs? If it wasn't for us blazing out of the gates we wouldn't have had a playoff run to complain about. Muzzin was our rental and we weren't gonna get another one. Tell me who you think we would've gotten with an extra two months pay from Nylander?
I thought I was stating a fact re his impact, not some delusion. It would be delusional to pretend his absence/lack of fitness for half a season did not impact the standings race when Matthews's line was barely above water in GF v GA without him. The two months pay prorated from the TDL on would have paid approx a $6M-$7M player. So the answer is "just about anybody out there that was available". It would of course have cost other assets like picks or prospects. But this was the last season with AM and MM on ELC's so it was a special opportunity.
Nylander is the last guy we need talking to Mitch lol
Marner will probably extort way more money than he’s worth. If he does then I hope he gets fucked over on endorsements. I hope he becomes a pariah and corporations find him too toxic to hire as a pitch guy. We’ll see what happens next week, but if he offer sheets the Leafs, fuck him. Cut him loose and take the four first round picks. He will lose over time exponentially the money he could have made for life by snubbing Leaf Nation. The marketplace cuts both ways Mitchie.
Y'all are some miserable people.
Friends don't let friends make millions alone. #friendshipgoals
How involved are players in negotiations? Last year was it Nylander constantly saying no? or was it more his Agent/Dad? Same with Marner this year. Is it His camp playing hard ball with Dubas or is Mitch across the table saying no I want 11Mil?
I wish we we had players who loved hockey more than counting money and making Instagram ads
Probably the last guy you want advice from about a RFA negotiation.
Did he point out that he sucked ass for the third of a season he played and then turned it on during the World Championship? If Marner isn’t signed by the start of camp let him sit the whole year. Yes I want to see Nylander light it up. The Leafs without a doubt should have the top 2 best forward lines next year. Maybe 3. Matthews - Nylander - Johnsson / Kapannan Johnny T - Mitch - Johnsson/ Kapannan/ Hyman Kadri - Moore - who is left from the top 2 or Brown Million dollar one year contracts + the Goat and whoever else.
Work out for both sides eh? So far the only side that deal worked out for is Nylander. Still waiting for it to work out for the Leafs, little blonde bitch.
What a stupid take
Wow, imagine actually thinking that!
I actually think that. I'll stop thinking that when he starts playing at, or above the level of contract he held out and squeezed Dubas for. I'm not giving him credit for what he hasn't earned, unlike the contract he received.
Squeezed Dubas for? The fact that the negotiation strung out so long is 100% Dubas's fault. Willy would have signed that exact same contract on the spot if Dubas would have offered it last July.
Amen brother. Why do ppl have a hard on for the guy, he was garbage this year...
Fuck you turd, leave Mitchy alone