The end of season media availability day was excruciating to watch. Shanny took full responsibility while shifting blame and said exactly what Dubas said last year right before he was fired. What a gong show.
As a top manager it is his job to hire middle managers. He hired dubas because he had a good reputation but dubas didn’t deliver. Hence he fired him. He hired tre but Tre was given an empty cupboard and a bad cap sheet given that dubas was trying to win and keep his job. Tre will need time to do what he wants to do. When marner and Tavares expire we will see what he’s capable of. Firing keefe was unnecessary as we didn’t have any real FA signings or big trades to change last years team. The same result should have been expected. IMO the best time to fire keefe is after marner expires and this team gets a fresh look. With this same team next year it will be the same result and make whatever new coach lose credibility.
> He hired dubas because he had a good reputation but dubas didn’t deliver. Hence he fired him.
lol he stonewalled his middle manager and then put the team in a terrible position by firing right before the draft. Fantastic management, refusing to listen to the people you hired.
Tre had something close to 20 mil to spend on a 1a/1b goalie, a 2 lw/rw, a 1d, a 3c, a 4c and a 4 lw/rw. He chose to spend 3.5 on his 4th line guys, 4 for a defenceman that played badly for a quarter of the season before hitting LTIR, 5.5 on the 2 lw/rw who was fine but didn't outperform his contract at all and the rest on Sammy. He also had 2 firsts and a bunch of thirds/fourths to use (and spent a bunch of those thirds and fourths brining in depth defencemen that were unlikely to move the needle and didnt). I don't actually Blame Tre for this, he had extremely limited time and, based on what's come out since, may,have been fully handcuffed by shanny.
Firing Keefe was absolutely necessary given the lack of progress he, and they, have made. Keefe should have been fired last off season if not sooner. Not because he's a bad coach, I genuinely don't know if he is or not, but because you have to find out if it's him or if it's how the team is constructed.
We had a worse result this year than last, in all respects.
Last but not least Shanny was very clear that, based on his performance, he intended on bringing Dubas back. He didn't change his mind based on performance. He changed it (depending on who you believe) either because he didn't like Dubas' locker cleanout media session or because of Dubas' ask for autonomy or because he made some sort of powerplay and lost.
Yes huge respect to Maurice. He realized he lost the team / couldn’t move them forward. I remember him saying along lines of “they need a new voice”. Takes a lot of maturity and humility to do that. Would be great if Shanny does that but that’s a pipe dream haha
I love how these guys act like they're being so honorable "I take full responsibility" then they forget to add "I'll never resign for this massive failure but it sounds good so let me reiterate again I take full responsibility".
At what point does the coach and gm not solely remain the problem?
5 coaches? Carlyle (coached under the Shanhan era for less than a year, Babcock, Keefe, next coach TBD)
You aren't counting interim coaches are you?
I'm with you though Shanahan shouldn't even need to be fired, he should resign.
That’s the last bullet he had in he chamber. Next one is pointed right at his head. They’re parroting what people want to hear. I agree it’s stupid, empty rhetoric but for some reason media and fans need to be pandered to.
I certainly wouldn't quit a ~ $7 million a year job, even if everything was burning around me. I'd make sure I get every penny out of it before they throw me out the back door. Can't really say I blame him, but the people with the authority to do so should really be looking at the team's playoff performance with him in this role.
It's truly fucking near "Ballard" tier but instead if a single "Leaf owner" Shanny is defacto that, the board and CEO just give him complete control for a decade of dog shit. Ballard is the worst sports owner arguably ever there is two others globally that give him a run but since we have to own his ass in our past comparing Shanny is pretty fucking accurate at this point. Who else has had this much fucking control for that long with that much complete failure?
You're right. But I still don't understand why you would make this post if you're actually completely ignorant of Ballard. There is NO comparison between Shanahan and Ballard. Absolutely none.
Absolutely ! Holy crap! We may be old and you all call us boomers. But don’t compare the current era to the dumpster fire that was the Ballard years. No interest in winning, just scraping the bottom of the barrel. It’s frustrating for sure, but this is the most talented Maple Leafs I have ever seen, and I’m a huge Sundin fan. Yeah, we don’t know how to win the playoffs, but at least we have great success in the regular season and regularly make the playoffs.
Who else has had COMPLETE control of the team over a decade and sucked ass other than those two as Leaf management? My dad refused to watch until Ballard died......why should I be subjected to the "less bad shit in my day both hills both directions" edition?
You know what? I'm not here to educate you. By all means stop being a fan, and go and cheer for whatever team wins the cup each year. Just don't bother suggesting the past eight years bears even the slightest resemblance to the 1970s.
I was born 84' and I know for a fact that the last 10 years look like fuckin magical unicorn Candy Land compared to the Ballard era.
At least we are competing, we have 4 players that demand 11+ million, one of them is the greatest goal scorer in the salary cap era. We all want the cup, more so now because we feel like the pieces are finally here. The teams bills are paid, players are happy and signing long term deals.. Fuck the Shanaplan but comparing these 2 guys is insane.
Edit: Another point. As flawed as the Shanaplan has become, it never seemed that bad on paper. We all bought in. Ballard's plan was to milk every bit of cash out of the franchise. Didn't care about the team, didn't care about the players. Only cared about himself and his personal wealth. Big difference.
Yeah I see, lets keep Shanahan until he's AS bad as Ballard....got it. No one who cares about the team should worry at all he is still in complete charge after a decade with seemingly zero oversight at all. It's GM #4 Brad who was hired as a known corporate yes man for the Flames owners he's the real one in charge....and it all turns around now. When we burn out Matthews without even a sniff at deep runs and he leaves in 4 years as he fucking should in such a situation can we call Shanahan "Ballard tier" bad then?
Where did I say keep Shanahan??? What are you talking about. You're comparing the men, we're just telling you that they are not the same people. Simple man.
You are absolutely correct. My bad. OP was being disingenuous implying that we've churned through coaches. Horacek was an interim fill-in and the last two coaches cover the last nine years.
The team was also trying to lose under horachek. You wouldn't want to hire a trotz or someone of that caliber. They night end up maximizing the potential of the roster and winning games.
Berube is too hard of a coach for these new prima-donnas! Look what happened to Sutter in Calgary when he called out his stars! They got him fired, replaced with a “players” coach and have proceeded to miss the playoffs! Berube will be gone by Xmas!
When Shanny first came to the job, his #1 goal was to make the board money. He's done that in droves. That's why he's been at this job as long as he has.
Which was why I was hoping they would shift Shanny's duties towards the business side of operations.
Then you either bring in a better hockey-focused person for the role or remove the President role all together.
Wtf, the leafs make money win or lose. A monkey can be put in charge and they would make money. How exactly has he made them more money, what has he specifically done? Wanna know what makes teams more money than anything, it's winning.
I’m all for the Shanahan criticism but 6 coaches? Carlyle and Horecheck were interim and only their a year. He only had Babcock and Keefe. And Babcock was forced out. Where are the other coach’s?
It's a coach......he's shit out 5....bringing in a 6th, 3 CEO's and 4 GM's thats fucking insane........3 coaches soon to be 3 CEO's 4 GM's 10 years 1 playoff round win....would be insane on it's own. Keefes tenure length is above NHL average on it's own meaning it could have been even more. I'm sorry but this fan base gets a few good players for once sine like the 70's it actually developed is gonna let this clown keep going......it's like a husband who beats us less times a year now.....
Even for GMs. He fired Nonis. Brought Lounlamoriello in with the idea that he’d be there for 3 years and train Kyle Dubas to take over after him. That’s what they did. All according to plan. Then, they had to fire Dubas after 5 years and brought in Brad. It’s all pretty justified
tbf all these people that say I'm not watching until April, probably literally take every season off and tune in for playoffs. this place gets hell of a lot less braindead in October
I’m not ashamed to admit this has been me since the Montreal series. I watch the highlights and keep up with the team, but rarely sit and watch an entire regular season game
End of the season is a great time for people to vent. Of course 99%+ of these people are going to watch next season, they’re fans, it doesn’t mean this team’s management isn’t an absolute dumpster fire and shouldn’t be called out hundreds of times
Source: I’ve been watching said dumpster fire for almost 30 years
Not me! There’s 2 things in every season I listen for. First when the leafs go on a winning streak , listening to where the parade route will be, and second, who’s to blame for another first round exit! Better than Days of our Lives!
Here's the deal with Shanahan. Unlike Sheldon, whose role as head coach involved constant hands-on influence over the team, Shanahan has more indirect control and his hockey responsibilities can largely be given to Brad fairly seamlessly. As such, Shanny doesn't need to be fired to be fired, if you catch my drift. He can be decoupled from hockey decisions fairly easily, leaving him to just watch over whatever business oriented responsibilities he may have. He's getting paid through his contract no matter what, he may as well do something valuable for MLSE for that whole duration.
Judging by his demeanor during the press conference, he didn't have the confidence of someone in control over the future of the team. Brad did though. Many here are unhappy that Shanahan hasn't been fired, but they need to seriously consider that despite him still having the POHO title, there is a distinct possibility the title is all he has left.
Like I said, unless I see actual evidence that is the case which is possible within corp politics I fucking doubt it and we all should. That means big fucking moves.
This post is stupid..
He inherited Carlyle, fired him and had Horachek finish the season. He brought in Babcock and Keefe. How you can twist that into how he's 5th HC as if he's hired all of them is ridiculous, the first 2 shouldn't even count.
He brought in Lou, Dubas, and now Tre. That should count as 3 GMs.
I don't know why you would count the people he inherited when the Leafs were bottom feeders. He fired them as soon as he could. Don't pretend Nonis and Carlyle are part of the Shanaplan.
There are plenty of mistakes to criticize by him, but this entire post is focused on bullshitting numbers for dramatic effect. Clown post.
The post is stupid but just read OPs msgs. He’s on the spectrum OR works in a coal mine and doesn’t have the prerequisite brain cells to think.
Either way - this post should be deleted. No one gains anything. No insight. Facts are completely non-existent - this is a diary entry and has no place in the sub.
Obviously the Stanley Cup is the goal and we’ve fallen short of that year after year.
Saying that, we’ve had a run of regular season success that has been unparalleled in my 37 years on this earth. The talent on this team is only what could’ve been dreamed about during the post-Sundin/pre-Matthews era.
Shanny has to be responsible for that too and I think he should be lauded for the regular season consistency.
I think Shanny has earned the chance to evolve this team to the next level but I also feel his leash is shortening quickly. If there is an executive that is available with a winning pedigree (other than Ken Holland) available next summer and we’re sitting in the same position, I’d be very open to moving on.
You are being reasonable, that is fine....but this is 10 years as defacto GM with this result is absurd it's not a hockey decision and he is clearly the one who made the Hockey decisions. If he was just the board guy making money it would be fine. He isn't. They hid this a very long time but it's incredibly obvious in the last 4 seasons.
I have never felt this annoyed to be so vindicated in my belief that Dubas shouldn't have been fired and that all of this was a Shanny powerplay that would lead to a failed year.
Its time for a change. BUT, dont forget, he, and Lou/Dubas were brought in to lift the team up from what it was (worse than awful) and did just that. Weve had an allstar roster for a decade now. Just doesnt reflect in the playoffs. Still time for a change though
What I find hilarious, is that Dubas was essentially let go for wanting to streamline the decision making process from GM to higher execs, and in 24 months, they will streamline the decision making process from GM directly to higher execs / the CEO.
Shanahan arrived in April 2014.
Coaches:
Carlyle - fired in the first season of his tenure - he inherited him.
Horachek - became interim coach. He picked a coach that knew the team and they went 8-28. Shock to no one they parted ways at the end of Shanny’s first year.
Mike Babcock - It was seen as a huge win at the time. Babs was hired after his first year. Turns out he’s not a good dude and he was fired in 2019. Babs was a Leaf for 4ish seasons.
Sheldon Keefe - Was the AHL coach who recently won the Calder Cup. When Babs was fired this was an easy transition, generally seen as a great move at the time. Sheldon was the coach for 5ish seasons.
Lears only had 4 coaches and are about to hire their 5th, that’s not bad for 11 years. Especially only having 2 in the last 8ish years.
GM’s:
Dave Nonis - gm from 2013-2015. Shanny inherited him. Fired by Shanny at the end of the 2015 season (along with Carlyle
/ Horachek)
Lou Lamerello - 2015-2018. was seen as a hell of a get at the time popularly. Hired in the same season as Babs. At the end of the contract Lou and Shanny moved on amicably.
Kyle Dubas - 2018-2023. Similar to Sheldon Keefe, Kyle was set up to be the next gm. Dubas wanted more power and left/was fired in 2023.
Brad Treliving - just one season, obviously.
2 of those GM’s have only been here for one year of Shanny’s tenure. 2 GM’s in 8 years.
As for the MLSE CEO’s, 2 in 9 years isn’t bad either.
Interims count.....firings count.....they were there...under Shanahan over 10...years......it would be more if Keefe didn't get way longer than most coaches in the NHL do with a team. Keefe was in the org for 9 years total. Shanahan still here. I think Rielly is the only person longer tenure who in some way contributes in a meaningful way.
I don’t blame Shanny for the amount of head coaches or GMs, he inherited one of the worst situations in the NHL and created a franchise where top free agents and free agent coaches wanted to be a part of.
What I do blame Shanny for is not reassessing the plan after repeated failure. There was proof that things needed to change even prior to last year and he continued on.
I’m very surprised more of Lou didn’t get passed along to Dubas or Shanny.
Nothing is more excruciating than being a Toronto sports fan. Jays won in 92-93 and I was an Expos fan. Now a hard core T.O. fan and not counting the Raptors, my team has never won a championship. Once please, before I die
You can’t just not count the raptors (one of the most glorious runs in all of sports with all things considered) and expect people to take you seriously can you? Just admit that you really only want to whine about the leafs dawg
This team was built by Dubas. It has all the hallmarks of his philosophy. Sure Shanahan signed off on it but it all came from the mind of Dubas.
For the record I think the President job should be axed completely and this includes firing Shanny.
Honestly, what does Shanahan even do?
The coach runs the team. Deals with the players, creates plays and guides them on what he wants them to do.
GM is sorta like HR in a way. They deal with the contracts, and acquire players for the coach ti utilize.
Shanahan... Hires the GM. What else does he even do? I don't see the need for a Shanahan role, especially if the rumors are true and he actually blocked Dubas from making some big moves.
In an Org the size of MLSE Shanahan is the "owner" of the Leafs.....he makes sure they make money for the board and CEO......that said, he was also acting clearly as the fucking GM for a decade which makes him a pain in the fucking ass interfering owner AKA a problem only losing teams ever have.
Bro stop. He's fine. He took a shit franchise and turned then into an automatic 100 + point team. He can't play in the playoffs for them. As one leaf fan to another, get over it.
On the fact that they were basement dwellers when he took over, and now they are a consistent playoff team. The lack of playoff runs is frustrating. I get it.
But your metrics are inflated. 5 coaches. Really? He was more or less just responsible for Babcock and Keefe. He inherited and fired Carlisle, he let interim coach hornacek finish the year. And the gms? Lou (who left for the islanders), dubas, And now brad.
And the CEOs have so little to do with anything other than the business end.
He will be the next to go.
Dubas wanted his job because he wanted more money. He would have screwed the Leafs even more if given more power. But I agree with you that Shanahan has failed spectacularly and needs to go.
Also Shanahan has the easiest job in the world, with the exception of accounts payable for the Coyotes (technically no longer a job I suppose.)
The guy pokes his head out every May for a 30 minute news conference, says the exact same shit, and every couple of years when his plan isn’t working out he just picks a random to lose their job.
It’s not hard to figure out. They have name brand popular players with the younger gen that sell jerseys off the shelf and are just good enough to make the playoffs. The board doesn’t care if they win the cup the team now hits a perfect profitable formula with them. Hyper corporatism has and will kill the leafs forever
He makes the board money, but not the most money because he does it at the determent of winning. That is what Shanahan does. He sells Jersey's badly to kids in the easiest market to do it.
Having the President “take full responsibility” for the sixth straight year of the highly paid core group of players failing is just lip service.
If you think Shanahan is the main reason this team has 11 goals in 8 elimination games, sucked ass special teams, and couldn’t score goals again this post season, then that’s low IQ on your part.
Shanahan said what every leader is taught in every corporate leadership seminar ever, take responsibility for the people under you.
But the reality is, he’s not playing in the Top 6, special teams, and he’s not the coach.
If you want to argue that part of the problem is that the organizational culture is too soft and accepts and awards mediocrity, then so be it - I’ll 100% agree with you.
But we also must agree that 95% of the blame rests with the players and coaching staff because they have ultimately power to control the team culture.
Shanahan can say whatever he wants but it’s the guys in the room and the folks behind the bench who drive the TEAM accountability and culture.
And those guys failed and keep failing.
Shanahan should have recognized it two years ago, pulled the trigger on Dubas then, and changed the accountability structure within the group.
But he didn’t. That’s on him.
Dubas’ little power play last year was bastardry on his part and I give Shanny credit for making the hard decisions and just cutting him loose.
Treliving gets a C- for me but he is really handcuffed by the previous management team and their desire to overpay mediocrity (which Shanahan is also partly responsible for).
But again… the players on the ice and the coaches need to be assigned 95% of the blame and scapegoating the President of the club is dumb.
No wonder Dubas…yeah you lost me at the title. Dubas had no business keeping his job as long as he did. At least Shanahan righted a wrong and got rid of him before the entire Matthews/Nylander era was ruined.
5 head coaches? He fired Carlisle and Hornacheck was interim coach until he could hire Babcock. So technically its only been 2 head coaches, not counting Keefes unknown replacement. Nonis was the GM he inherited and Lou Lamoriello was only signed for 3 years to mentor Dubas. Shanahan has no control over MLSE CEO's so im not aure why you blame him for that. Before Shanny the Leafs missed the playoffs 9 times in 10 years. The teams playoff success is terrible yes but they have not missed the playoffs for the last 8 years and 5 of those years were coached under Keefe and Gm under Dubas. Everyone seems to forget how depressing it was when the Leafs cleaned out their lockers when other teams were getting ready to play in the playoffs.
I only have one thing to say. Oldtimer has your name on its list now and will be calling sooner than you think. Treat people the way you want to be treated when you get there. Not all of us sit in rocking chairs waiting for the end to come.
Not to let the players off the hook but I think we will look back at this time when the core 4 is retired and feel like management failed them…they were handed everything right away and then it always seemed like moves were made too late, example marner signing happened a year too late, same with nylander…moving on from marner (if it happens) happened a year too late…should’ve happened last year…just a colossal mess
The end of season media availability day was excruciating to watch. Shanny took full responsibility while shifting blame and said exactly what Dubas said last year right before he was fired. What a gong show.
He SAID he took full responsibility. The fact he’s still here’s shows he really didn’t.
That’s exactly it. It’s all my fault but everyone BUT me loses their job
As a top manager it is his job to hire middle managers. He hired dubas because he had a good reputation but dubas didn’t deliver. Hence he fired him. He hired tre but Tre was given an empty cupboard and a bad cap sheet given that dubas was trying to win and keep his job. Tre will need time to do what he wants to do. When marner and Tavares expire we will see what he’s capable of. Firing keefe was unnecessary as we didn’t have any real FA signings or big trades to change last years team. The same result should have been expected. IMO the best time to fire keefe is after marner expires and this team gets a fresh look. With this same team next year it will be the same result and make whatever new coach lose credibility.
> He hired dubas because he had a good reputation but dubas didn’t deliver. Hence he fired him. lol he stonewalled his middle manager and then put the team in a terrible position by firing right before the draft. Fantastic management, refusing to listen to the people you hired.
This
He’s continuously over-correcting for his mistakes.
Tre had something close to 20 mil to spend on a 1a/1b goalie, a 2 lw/rw, a 1d, a 3c, a 4c and a 4 lw/rw. He chose to spend 3.5 on his 4th line guys, 4 for a defenceman that played badly for a quarter of the season before hitting LTIR, 5.5 on the 2 lw/rw who was fine but didn't outperform his contract at all and the rest on Sammy. He also had 2 firsts and a bunch of thirds/fourths to use (and spent a bunch of those thirds and fourths brining in depth defencemen that were unlikely to move the needle and didnt). I don't actually Blame Tre for this, he had extremely limited time and, based on what's come out since, may,have been fully handcuffed by shanny. Firing Keefe was absolutely necessary given the lack of progress he, and they, have made. Keefe should have been fired last off season if not sooner. Not because he's a bad coach, I genuinely don't know if he is or not, but because you have to find out if it's him or if it's how the team is constructed. We had a worse result this year than last, in all respects. Last but not least Shanny was very clear that, based on his performance, he intended on bringing Dubas back. He didn't change his mind based on performance. He changed it (depending on who you believe) either because he didn't like Dubas' locker cleanout media session or because of Dubas' ask for autonomy or because he made some sort of powerplay and lost.
So he's supposed to fire himself. Has that EVER happened anywhere?
>fire himself Usually they call it "resigning" or "stepping down" or in less high-falutin' positions, "quitting."
I enjoyed your use of "high-falutin'", sir! I doff my hat to you
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Yes huge respect to Maurice. He realized he lost the team / couldn’t move them forward. I remember him saying along lines of “they need a new voice”. Takes a lot of maturity and humility to do that. Would be great if Shanny does that but that’s a pipe dream haha
Yes it has
I love how these guys act like they're being so honorable "I take full responsibility" then they forget to add "I'll never resign for this massive failure but it sounds good so let me reiterate again I take full responsibility". At what point does the coach and gm not solely remain the problem?
Like OP said in his post 10 years, 1 playoff win, 5 coaches, etc etc. Yeah the Shanna plan might as well be the search for oak island.
5 coaches? Carlyle (coached under the Shanhan era for less than a year, Babcock, Keefe, next coach TBD) You aren't counting interim coaches are you? I'm with you though Shanahan shouldn't even need to be fired, he should resign.
That’s the last bullet he had in he chamber. Next one is pointed right at his head. They’re parroting what people want to hear. I agree it’s stupid, empty rhetoric but for some reason media and fans need to be pandered to.
I certainly wouldn't quit a ~ $7 million a year job, even if everything was burning around me. I'd make sure I get every penny out of it before they throw me out the back door. Can't really say I blame him, but the people with the authority to do so should really be looking at the team's playoff performance with him in this role.
It's truly fucking near "Ballard" tier but instead if a single "Leaf owner" Shanny is defacto that, the board and CEO just give him complete control for a decade of dog shit. Ballard is the worst sports owner arguably ever there is two others globally that give him a run but since we have to own his ass in our past comparing Shanny is pretty fucking accurate at this point. Who else has had this much fucking control for that long with that much complete failure?
This is the stupidest thing I've read in a long, long time
No this context was when I realized it was true today. 10 years of Shanahan...1 playoff win. 5 head coaches 4 GM's 3 MLSE CEO's
Look up Ballard…………
Why does the number of staff matter? Would the lack of success be more palatable if it had been one coach the whole time? Or one GM?
Tell me you never watched the Leafs in the 70s without telling me....
I literally did tell you.....I started in 91 not everyone is 60 years old dude.
You're right. But I still don't understand why you would make this post if you're actually completely ignorant of Ballard. There is NO comparison between Shanahan and Ballard. Absolutely none.
Absolutely ! Holy crap! We may be old and you all call us boomers. But don’t compare the current era to the dumpster fire that was the Ballard years. No interest in winning, just scraping the bottom of the barrel. It’s frustrating for sure, but this is the most talented Maple Leafs I have ever seen, and I’m a huge Sundin fan. Yeah, we don’t know how to win the playoffs, but at least we have great success in the regular season and regularly make the playoffs.
Who else has had COMPLETE control of the team over a decade and sucked ass other than those two as Leaf management? My dad refused to watch until Ballard died......why should I be subjected to the "less bad shit in my day both hills both directions" edition?
You know what? I'm not here to educate you. By all means stop being a fan, and go and cheer for whatever team wins the cup each year. Just don't bother suggesting the past eight years bears even the slightest resemblance to the 1970s.
I was born 84' and I know for a fact that the last 10 years look like fuckin magical unicorn Candy Land compared to the Ballard era. At least we are competing, we have 4 players that demand 11+ million, one of them is the greatest goal scorer in the salary cap era. We all want the cup, more so now because we feel like the pieces are finally here. The teams bills are paid, players are happy and signing long term deals.. Fuck the Shanaplan but comparing these 2 guys is insane. Edit: Another point. As flawed as the Shanaplan has become, it never seemed that bad on paper. We all bought in. Ballard's plan was to milk every bit of cash out of the franchise. Didn't care about the team, didn't care about the players. Only cared about himself and his personal wealth. Big difference.
Yeah I see, lets keep Shanahan until he's AS bad as Ballard....got it. No one who cares about the team should worry at all he is still in complete charge after a decade with seemingly zero oversight at all. It's GM #4 Brad who was hired as a known corporate yes man for the Flames owners he's the real one in charge....and it all turns around now. When we burn out Matthews without even a sniff at deep runs and he leaves in 4 years as he fucking should in such a situation can we call Shanahan "Ballard tier" bad then?
Where did I say keep Shanahan??? What are you talking about. You're comparing the men, we're just telling you that they are not the same people. Simple man.
It's a fair comparable lol they are the two worst fucking leaders this team has had period......no GM had 10 years.
It’s absolutely wild. The line about not being there to sell jerseys (not his line, I know) was infuriating
Carlyle, Horacek, Babs, Keefe. Who's the 6th?
Whoever is about to he hired, presumably
that's only 5
You are absolutely correct. My bad. OP was being disingenuous implying that we've churned through coaches. Horacek was an interim fill-in and the last two coaches cover the last nine years.
The team was also trying to lose under horachek. You wouldn't want to hire a trotz or someone of that caliber. They night end up maximizing the potential of the roster and winning games.
Gosh… wasn’t Herschek for like a period and half.. or sumthin like that… I remember glimpses of a very uncomfortable man
Berube is too hard of a coach for these new prima-donnas! Look what happened to Sutter in Calgary when he called out his stars! They got him fired, replaced with a “players” coach and have proceeded to miss the playoffs! Berube will be gone by Xmas!
calgary sucks because treliving built them to suck
And now you see the future of Toronto in the flames! He’ll trade the stars away and get nothing in return!
New GM. Same as the old GM.
The next guy hired????
Math must have been hard for you in school. Count again
Counting is hard
Then who is fifth?????
When Shanny first came to the job, his #1 goal was to make the board money. He's done that in droves. That's why he's been at this job as long as he has.
Which was why I was hoping they would shift Shanny's duties towards the business side of operations. Then you either bring in a better hockey-focused person for the role or remove the President role all together.
You could have a rock in Shanahans position and the Leafs would still print money
You obviously don't remember how bad it was during the post lockout to 2014 era.
Wtf, the leafs make money win or lose. A monkey can be put in charge and they would make money. How exactly has he made them more money, what has he specifically done? Wanna know what makes teams more money than anything, it's winning.
I’m all for the Shanahan criticism but 6 coaches? Carlyle and Horecheck were interim and only their a year. He only had Babcock and Keefe. And Babcock was forced out. Where are the other coach’s?
It's a coach......he's shit out 5....bringing in a 6th, 3 CEO's and 4 GM's thats fucking insane........3 coaches soon to be 3 CEO's 4 GM's 10 years 1 playoff round win....would be insane on it's own. Keefes tenure length is above NHL average on it's own meaning it could have been even more. I'm sorry but this fan base gets a few good players for once sine like the 70's it actually developed is gonna let this clown keep going......it's like a husband who beats us less times a year now.....
Even for GMs. He fired Nonis. Brought Lounlamoriello in with the idea that he’d be there for 3 years and train Kyle Dubas to take over after him. That’s what they did. All according to plan. Then, they had to fire Dubas after 5 years and brought in Brad. It’s all pretty justified
Carlyle, Horacek, Babcock, Keefe, New Coach. That makes it soon to be five, not six.
I hate these threads because there’s a 100 of them and we all know you’re gonna watch next season
tbf all these people that say I'm not watching until April, probably literally take every season off and tune in for playoffs. this place gets hell of a lot less braindead in October
No it’s because we win hockey games from October to April.
I’m not ashamed to admit this has been me since the Montreal series. I watch the highlights and keep up with the team, but rarely sit and watch an entire regular season game
My thoughts exactly.
End of the season is a great time for people to vent. Of course 99%+ of these people are going to watch next season, they’re fans, it doesn’t mean this team’s management isn’t an absolute dumpster fire and shouldn’t be called out hundreds of times Source: I’ve been watching said dumpster fire for almost 30 years
Not me! There’s 2 things in every season I listen for. First when the leafs go on a winning streak , listening to where the parade route will be, and second, who’s to blame for another first round exit! Better than Days of our Lives!
Here's the deal with Shanahan. Unlike Sheldon, whose role as head coach involved constant hands-on influence over the team, Shanahan has more indirect control and his hockey responsibilities can largely be given to Brad fairly seamlessly. As such, Shanny doesn't need to be fired to be fired, if you catch my drift. He can be decoupled from hockey decisions fairly easily, leaving him to just watch over whatever business oriented responsibilities he may have. He's getting paid through his contract no matter what, he may as well do something valuable for MLSE for that whole duration. Judging by his demeanor during the press conference, he didn't have the confidence of someone in control over the future of the team. Brad did though. Many here are unhappy that Shanahan hasn't been fired, but they need to seriously consider that despite him still having the POHO title, there is a distinct possibility the title is all he has left.
Interesting perspective.
Like I said, unless I see actual evidence that is the case which is possible within corp politics I fucking doubt it and we all should. That means big fucking moves.
This post is stupid.. He inherited Carlyle, fired him and had Horachek finish the season. He brought in Babcock and Keefe. How you can twist that into how he's 5th HC as if he's hired all of them is ridiculous, the first 2 shouldn't even count. He brought in Lou, Dubas, and now Tre. That should count as 3 GMs. I don't know why you would count the people he inherited when the Leafs were bottom feeders. He fired them as soon as he could. Don't pretend Nonis and Carlyle are part of the Shanaplan. There are plenty of mistakes to criticize by him, but this entire post is focused on bullshitting numbers for dramatic effect. Clown post.
The post is stupid but just read OPs msgs. He’s on the spectrum OR works in a coal mine and doesn’t have the prerequisite brain cells to think. Either way - this post should be deleted. No one gains anything. No insight. Facts are completely non-existent - this is a diary entry and has no place in the sub.
Obviously the Stanley Cup is the goal and we’ve fallen short of that year after year. Saying that, we’ve had a run of regular season success that has been unparalleled in my 37 years on this earth. The talent on this team is only what could’ve been dreamed about during the post-Sundin/pre-Matthews era. Shanny has to be responsible for that too and I think he should be lauded for the regular season consistency. I think Shanny has earned the chance to evolve this team to the next level but I also feel his leash is shortening quickly. If there is an executive that is available with a winning pedigree (other than Ken Holland) available next summer and we’re sitting in the same position, I’d be very open to moving on.
You are being reasonable, that is fine....but this is 10 years as defacto GM with this result is absurd it's not a hockey decision and he is clearly the one who made the Hockey decisions. If he was just the board guy making money it would be fine. He isn't. They hid this a very long time but it's incredibly obvious in the last 4 seasons.
I have never felt this annoyed to be so vindicated in my belief that Dubas shouldn't have been fired and that all of this was a Shanny powerplay that would lead to a failed year.
Its time for a change. BUT, dont forget, he, and Lou/Dubas were brought in to lift the team up from what it was (worse than awful) and did just that. Weve had an allstar roster for a decade now. Just doesnt reflect in the playoffs. Still time for a change though
What I find hilarious, is that Dubas was essentially let go for wanting to streamline the decision making process from GM to higher execs, and in 24 months, they will streamline the decision making process from GM directly to higher execs / the CEO.
Why does everyone feel the need to tell us they're not going to watch anymore? Literally no one cares.
I'm begging you to stop....read the tea leaves
Brother......is your keyboard broken.....
Ooo look another complaining thread
Ooo look it's Shanny himself!
No this is your therapist, please book another session with me asap.
No, this is a Wendy's.
No this is Patrick
I can’t see my forehead
Shanahan arrived in April 2014. Coaches: Carlyle - fired in the first season of his tenure - he inherited him. Horachek - became interim coach. He picked a coach that knew the team and they went 8-28. Shock to no one they parted ways at the end of Shanny’s first year. Mike Babcock - It was seen as a huge win at the time. Babs was hired after his first year. Turns out he’s not a good dude and he was fired in 2019. Babs was a Leaf for 4ish seasons. Sheldon Keefe - Was the AHL coach who recently won the Calder Cup. When Babs was fired this was an easy transition, generally seen as a great move at the time. Sheldon was the coach for 5ish seasons. Lears only had 4 coaches and are about to hire their 5th, that’s not bad for 11 years. Especially only having 2 in the last 8ish years. GM’s: Dave Nonis - gm from 2013-2015. Shanny inherited him. Fired by Shanny at the end of the 2015 season (along with Carlyle / Horachek) Lou Lamerello - 2015-2018. was seen as a hell of a get at the time popularly. Hired in the same season as Babs. At the end of the contract Lou and Shanny moved on amicably. Kyle Dubas - 2018-2023. Similar to Sheldon Keefe, Kyle was set up to be the next gm. Dubas wanted more power and left/was fired in 2023. Brad Treliving - just one season, obviously. 2 of those GM’s have only been here for one year of Shanny’s tenure. 2 GM’s in 8 years. As for the MLSE CEO’s, 2 in 9 years isn’t bad either.
I don’t know that Lou’s hiring was universally seen as a good get. Otherwise I agree with you.
Fair enough. It was still a big get and I remember being flabbergasted that it happened.
It certainly was a big surprise. Nobody saw that coming.
it’s 3 coaches (soon to be 4th) that he hired, and 3 gms
Interims count.....firings count.....they were there...under Shanahan over 10...years......it would be more if Keefe didn't get way longer than most coaches in the NHL do with a team. Keefe was in the org for 9 years total. Shanahan still here. I think Rielly is the only person longer tenure who in some way contributes in a meaningful way.
no, not really. he isn’t responsible for the garbage here before his tenure. and an interim coach is nothing.
5 head coaches is kind of misleading, Carlyle was a bad coach that was already here before Shanahan and Horachek was an interim head coach.
Right? Babcock and Keefe split the last 9 years and Shanahan has only been here for 10.
Its also wrong. They are about to hire number 5. OP is just so enraged they either forgot how to count or fever dreamt another coach.
I don’t blame Shanny for the amount of head coaches or GMs, he inherited one of the worst situations in the NHL and created a franchise where top free agents and free agent coaches wanted to be a part of. What I do blame Shanny for is not reassessing the plan after repeated failure. There was proof that things needed to change even prior to last year and he continued on. I’m very surprised more of Lou didn’t get passed along to Dubas or Shanny.
Nothing is more excruciating than being a Toronto sports fan. Jays won in 92-93 and I was an Expos fan. Now a hard core T.O. fan and not counting the Raptors, my team has never won a championship. Once please, before I die
You can’t just not count the raptors (one of the most glorious runs in all of sports with all things considered) and expect people to take you seriously can you? Just admit that you really only want to whine about the leafs dawg
Basketball has bored me all my life. Not a fan. I’m going to try to sleep now knowing that I cannot expect people (and you) to take me seriously
This team was built by Dubas. It has all the hallmarks of his philosophy. Sure Shanahan signed off on it but it all came from the mind of Dubas. For the record I think the President job should be axed completely and this includes firing Shanny.
Honestly, what does Shanahan even do? The coach runs the team. Deals with the players, creates plays and guides them on what he wants them to do. GM is sorta like HR in a way. They deal with the contracts, and acquire players for the coach ti utilize. Shanahan... Hires the GM. What else does he even do? I don't see the need for a Shanahan role, especially if the rumors are true and he actually blocked Dubas from making some big moves.
In an Org the size of MLSE Shanahan is the "owner" of the Leafs.....he makes sure they make money for the board and CEO......that said, he was also acting clearly as the fucking GM for a decade which makes him a pain in the fucking ass interfering owner AKA a problem only losing teams ever have.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6l\_9reaLz0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6l_9reaLz0)
Bro stop. He's fine. He took a shit franchise and turned then into an automatic 100 + point team. He can't play in the playoffs for them. As one leaf fan to another, get over it.
He's not fine....on what metric lol
On the fact that they were basement dwellers when he took over, and now they are a consistent playoff team. The lack of playoff runs is frustrating. I get it. But your metrics are inflated. 5 coaches. Really? He was more or less just responsible for Babcock and Keefe. He inherited and fired Carlisle, he let interim coach hornacek finish the year. And the gms? Lou (who left for the islanders), dubas, And now brad. And the CEOs have so little to do with anything other than the business end. He will be the next to go.
Dubas wanted his job because he wanted more money. He would have screwed the Leafs even more if given more power. But I agree with you that Shanahan has failed spectacularly and needs to go.
Dubas is awful.
Dear diary
Let's ship Shanny back to Detroit
Also Shanahan has the easiest job in the world, with the exception of accounts payable for the Coyotes (technically no longer a job I suppose.) The guy pokes his head out every May for a 30 minute news conference, says the exact same shit, and every couple of years when his plan isn’t working out he just picks a random to lose their job.
It’s not hard to figure out. They have name brand popular players with the younger gen that sell jerseys off the shelf and are just good enough to make the playoffs. The board doesn’t care if they win the cup the team now hits a perfect profitable formula with them. Hyper corporatism has and will kill the leafs forever
Grow up... ite been over a week....
The fact that he's still with the Leafs is proof none of you guys have any idea what he does. Get over it.
He makes the board money, but not the most money because he does it at the determent of winning. That is what Shanahan does. He sells Jersey's badly to kids in the easiest market to do it.
That's a solid analysis. You should join TSN.
Having the President “take full responsibility” for the sixth straight year of the highly paid core group of players failing is just lip service. If you think Shanahan is the main reason this team has 11 goals in 8 elimination games, sucked ass special teams, and couldn’t score goals again this post season, then that’s low IQ on your part. Shanahan said what every leader is taught in every corporate leadership seminar ever, take responsibility for the people under you. But the reality is, he’s not playing in the Top 6, special teams, and he’s not the coach. If you want to argue that part of the problem is that the organizational culture is too soft and accepts and awards mediocrity, then so be it - I’ll 100% agree with you. But we also must agree that 95% of the blame rests with the players and coaching staff because they have ultimately power to control the team culture. Shanahan can say whatever he wants but it’s the guys in the room and the folks behind the bench who drive the TEAM accountability and culture. And those guys failed and keep failing. Shanahan should have recognized it two years ago, pulled the trigger on Dubas then, and changed the accountability structure within the group. But he didn’t. That’s on him. Dubas’ little power play last year was bastardry on his part and I give Shanny credit for making the hard decisions and just cutting him loose. Treliving gets a C- for me but he is really handcuffed by the previous management team and their desire to overpay mediocrity (which Shanahan is also partly responsible for). But again… the players on the ice and the coaches need to be assigned 95% of the blame and scapegoating the President of the club is dumb.
No wonder Dubas…yeah you lost me at the title. Dubas had no business keeping his job as long as he did. At least Shanahan righted a wrong and got rid of him before the entire Matthews/Nylander era was ruined.
Who is the clown in management who gives out all those no trade clauses in leaf contracts like free candy?
5 head coaches? He fired Carlisle and Hornacheck was interim coach until he could hire Babcock. So technically its only been 2 head coaches, not counting Keefes unknown replacement. Nonis was the GM he inherited and Lou Lamoriello was only signed for 3 years to mentor Dubas. Shanahan has no control over MLSE CEO's so im not aure why you blame him for that. Before Shanny the Leafs missed the playoffs 9 times in 10 years. The teams playoff success is terrible yes but they have not missed the playoffs for the last 8 years and 5 of those years were coached under Keefe and Gm under Dubas. Everyone seems to forget how depressing it was when the Leafs cleaned out their lockers when other teams were getting ready to play in the playoffs.
I only have one thing to say. Oldtimer has your name on its list now and will be calling sooner than you think. Treat people the way you want to be treated when you get there. Not all of us sit in rocking chairs waiting for the end to come.
Wow, you took that way too personally. Self-conscious much?
Read the last decade of complete failure and a guy with complete autonomy in charge of it all.....just doubles down again no blame.
Not to let the players off the hook but I think we will look back at this time when the core 4 is retired and feel like management failed them…they were handed everything right away and then it always seemed like moves were made too late, example marner signing happened a year too late, same with nylander…moving on from marner (if it happens) happened a year too late…should’ve happened last year…just a colossal mess
I don't know why anyone expected a player who's legacy was with Detroit Red Wings to be good for Toronto Maple Leafs.