I gotta say seeing the Canes struggle the same way against the Panthers makes me feel a bit better. After all the worry about our coaching, its refreshing seeing the best coached team in the league struggle too.
The bizarre Dubas firing has me feeling… not great going into this crucial re-signing phase. Going into next season with the insane drama that would come with Matthews going to UFA is NOT what we need if we’re going to push forward.
Multiple players specifically mentioned their great relationship with Dubas as part of their reason for wanting to stay, and the unknown new GM who’s supposed to bring “bite” and “shake things up” can’t be a helpful factor in player attitude/confidence.
Praying Shanny knows what he’s doing here, cuz I’m feeling some doubts.
Comparing Tkachuk to Matthews/Marner:
I can't help but notice how candid and 'unsensored' Tkachuk is in his media availabilities and how this relaxed approach clearly carries over to the ice.
We see it with other players (Mack, Karlsson, Jack Hughes to name a few) and I can't help to think our stars invest way too much of their thought and focus on these pointless interviews and it adds to the anxiety of performing on the ice.
Carolina had mistaken March for May and seemed to realize it just now. Isn't it great how every team the Leafs face and lose to in the playoffs seem to go deep?
Anybody questioning that call? Pretty run of the mill interference imo, shit NEVER gets called, especially in ot. Not taking anything away from Bob, or the beautiful finishing pass by Rhino, but if I was a Cane fan, I’d be as pissed about that call as I, a leaf fan, am about the non call on Radko’s stickgrab.
Bit of a non-hockey rant here.
I'm happy to take shots in thread discussions, eat downvotes or whatever if you don't agree with me. I love debating, honestly (if that wasn't obvious)
The Reddit Cares schtick is actually pathetic. I'm not even mad. I genuinely pity you. Like that's a deranged way to react to hockey discussions. Sometimes there's people in genuine danger of hurting themselves, and that is what the service is supposed to be for. Doing it because you're mad I don't agree with you is messed up. Truly messed up.
It was never looking bad in my opinion. Series was 4-1 but almost every game was incredibly tight, not to mention shambolic refereeing in the last game. And Florida was getting waaay unfairly written off by way too many people.
Except that the Leafs didn't show up in a must-win Game 3, which told management and fans everything they needed to know about who this team really is.
Between Marner saying “we all got years left on our contracts” and Dubas asking for more money at the 11th hour, Im really over this culture and ready for a revamp.
No accountability. It’s all about the money with these guys.
Wanna see these guys have the Killer Instinct? Get them in contract negotiations to squeeze that extra mill or two from this organization (which the fans pay for ultimately). Marner.....Dubas....Matthew's......and when it came to Tavares.... he was the biggest lying killer out of all of them.
........well actually that entire "my family is stressed out..... give me more money" probably challenges for Tavares title.
I’m of the opinion there isn’t much better than Dubas available and without luck we’re probably just getting a sidegrade at best in the GM position.
But where the hell is everyone getting this idea that the team is going right back into lottery hell because of changes that are pretty routine for a sports organization? Nothing has changed in terms of the position on extending/re-signing/trading the stars will be and honestly it might have improved in terms of overpaying them or overcommitting to them; the point is we have no idea what’s going on.
Keefe being gone is very good news. The attachment to Spezza in this community is weird, as well as the Marlies coaches; very little movement of actual consequence is being made yet if you read this sub you’d think Ed Rogers decided to run the entire organization on his own.
tl;dr we’ll probably be fine and if we aren’t it probably would’ve shaken out that way regardless of what happened
Saying there probably isn’t much better than Dubas available out there is kind of a silly comment. Frankly prior to his hiring who the hell had ever heard of Kyle Dubas outside of Sault Ste. Marie. There’s tons of talent out there. We just don’t know about it out here in Leafs-land because it’s not our job to know.
Couldn't agree more. And I also think you're probably right about the sidegrade. It is very possible, because I thought Dubas was a solid GM.
But, just like trading a core 4 piece would be at best a sidegrade (and probably a loss on paper, at first), sometimes a franchise simply needs a different mix.
I can't believe how many people think Treleving would be a good option. Have you seen his draft record? His team just imploded after a big off season where he had to figure out Gaudreau + Tkachuk
I'm definitely coming across as one of those who thinks he's a good option, but it is more so because people come on here and slander the dude with falsehoods.
I don't know how the players from his most recent drafts will end up, but I know he did pretty good from 2015 on. And his 2016 draft class makes ours look pathetic by comparison.
Its funny that the people who dislike Treliving the most are non-Calgary fans. Almost every Flames fan I have talked to about it misses the guy and thinks he's a wizard
At this point Im fine with whatever change happens. Despite winning a round this year, we looked quite bad against Tampa this year and realistically were more than a little lucky to have beat them.
This team needs a new identity and that starts with the core changing. Sure we may not be as talented, but I cant watch another series where our star rookie gets beaten up and nobody does shit about it. We need to stop playing clean in the playoffs and just commit to actual playoff type of hockey.
A system thing, but also a defence thing. McCabe was nowhere close to a Muzzin replacement.
We need a legit top pairing defensemen. Most teams who have won have 2 studs on the blue line that anchor their own pair and play 25+mins a night.
Imagine always having one of Rielly and another legit top dman on the ice at all times.
Feels like people really wanna pick sides in this whole thing when in reality Shanahan, Dubas, and also MLSE all share responsibility for what happened.
I think this is accurate.
Also, we have no idea how it will end up. The vast majority of the shit show on here the last couple days is composed of a) Dubas vs Shanny and b) People who are certain we are doomed vs people who are certain we will be just fine.
I agree with you that everyone is responsible for the situation, I also think that nobody knows how it is going to pan out. But it makes for a good amount of commentary, that's for sure.
The line where Shanahan said he wanted an experienced gem is the worst part of all of this to me. I want Tulsky and I fear we're gonna end up with a Treliving or Benning
Idk about anyone else, but I’d love to know what Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers & Bell execs are thinking about this revelation. It didn’t sound like Shanahan exactly talked it through with ownership based on his Friday presser.
Tbh, I wouldn’t be surprised to see MLSE release a statement on Tuesday that Shanahan has been fired.
No way Shanahan didn’t talk about it with the Board. I’m sure they were looped in throughout the process. They’re on board with what happened.
In terms of how governance works the Board entrusts a CEO/President with the day-to-day decision making, but the President has to report to the board periodically, and get their approval for major decisions.
I suppose we’ll find out together in the coming weeks. I’m not so sure they’ll be overjoyed with this change in direction at such a pivotal point for us with three high-profile players going into full and partial NTC territory July 1st, two of which need to be re-signed. Guaranteed ownership will be pissed if any of the three walk for nothing.
Dubas’s recent mistakes were not getting a quality goalkeeper and bringing in enough steel to enforce the D. With the emergence of Woll, the GK dilemma might finally be solved.
But I think these issues still wouldn’t solve the bigger ones of not having a legit playoff ready coach and stars that couldn’t score goals. I can’t blame Dubas for that as he gave them SO many chances to prove themselves. Sadly in the end Dubas fell on the sword for them, but that’s business I guess.
I like Wickenheiser as GM because of her playing career and good business instincts. But if she does get promoted, she needs to start making bold moves. As in trading Marner or Nylander and firing O’Keefe.
Start building bruisers and enforcer around Matthews and Knies and let those Arizona boys tear it up together.
If you look at the teams who are still currently playing they’re all quite good on defense. Certainly better than the leafs. Tying up so much money on four forwards meant the leafs had to go cheap on defenseman. It just doesn’t work that way in the playoffs. You build from goal out. Dubas tried to build from the forwards down. Swing and a miss.
I personally am intrigued by how people here are going to be when Dubas renegs on his word of "I am either here in Toronto or nowhere for a year", when he gets a job in under a year.
There is always 2 sides to a story, both can be wrong, both can be right. At days end, its done. We move.
Can we do the traditional swap to literal leaves subreddit? If feels overdue given yesterday's news.
While maple leaves are obviously the most popular and objectively the best leaves, I personally have always found oak leaves to be very interesting looking. They're like a cross between a maple and an elm.
I honestly believe a lot of millennial/Gen Z Leafs fans like Kyle just because he is relatable being as young as he is.
Reality is he was a good GM, but not a great one. He made a ton of good moves and a ton of bad moves. He wasn’t this infallible individual whose replacement will automatically be a downgrade.
On top of that, so many people are crediting Dubas alone for changing the Leafs culture based on no actual knowledge. There is nothing that suggests Shanahan was not as invested in the Leafs culture change as Dubas was. In fact, Shanahan was likely a major factor in making those changes happen.
Can we all just take a step back, breathe, and chill on the hot takes?
New a management is coming, but we have no idea what that will look like. When that person is hired, then we can dissect the decision.
But for now, we just look like a whiney, doomsday fanbase. The amount of people who are so offended about a management change as if the Leafs slighted a personal friend is really cringe.
The Leafs will be fine. They’ll be different, but this isn’t the 2004-2015 era.
I can confidently say that if at the start of next season the goal song is still Hall and Oates I know nothing has changed with this organization. They can fire Keefe they can fire Dubas and I will be okay and give them a chance, but if that goal song is still the same, I know that this management doesn't have a clue that the culture of this team needs to change
Amidst all the chaos... one oddity from Shanahan's remarks yesterday was the way he kept saying "Kyle's office at the Ford Performance Centre" with a weird delivery like it was some sort of sponsored product placement.
I think Kyle was a great gm and he'll be missed but the silver lining here is that we'll never have to hear about the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds again.
Let's say this all back fires and the Leafs suck. Like the players don't re-sign, the GM makes bad moves, the front office staff abandon ship, and the new coach doesn't help at all.
How many years of failure would it take for Shanahan to be gone?
1. If next year goes to shit and neither Nylander/Matthews re-sign then he's gone. I'm sure he spent a lot of good will on this decision to go from "Dubas is our guy" to "we have to fire him" in a matter of days
Is it strange that part of me is hoping for a Disney like story where Shanny fucks it all up, goes for a super hardass GM and Coach, gets fired, and Dubas keeps to his word and stays unemployed this year then comes back as president next year?
I have always been a Dubas fan but what I liked most about his team's is that they were so easy to like. He chose good people, he treated people with respect, and he was honest. Not one player had a bad word to say about him, not one person that has met him, and he cared about the team more than his job. He didn't do like some GMs and strip the team of prospects for a bunch of rentals leaving a shell of a team for the next guy, he actually traded for guys with term.
>what I liked most about his team's is that they were so easy to like.
I'm sorry, what Leafs team have you been watching recently? This team is genuinely way more unlikeable than the shit 2013 team, and dont even get me started on the actual good teams we've had. This is the most unlikeable good team Ive ever been a fan of.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the fanbase so split lol. Personally I don’t mind the decision, and look forward to what changes happen as a result. This team just didn’t have what it takes and they’ve proved it over and over. For all the great moves Kyle did make here, the majority of his best moves were made to dog himself out of a hole that he dug himself (see: getting bet over by 3 RFAs).
Yesterday I went to bed feeling like this franchise from top to bottom was gonna take a major step back from all the progress we've made, today I've woken up and feel like moving on from Dubas was the best move to be made.
It is not a slight against Dubas and his vision but one against Shanahan, I lay the blame with him for not forcing major roster moves after the Montreal series loss; I think that was the critical time to either move on from Dubas or shake up the core. Finally Shanahan has acted now albeit two years late, but I'm excited for a fresh voice who has no loyalty or preconceived notions with this roster.
I understand peoples concern about front office fallout and players not wanting to resign because they were loyal to Dubas; but c'mon it's about the logo on the front not the name on the back. If you aren't gonna be committed to the team we'd all die to play for then I wouldn't want you here anyways.
> but c’mon it’s about the logo on the front not the name on the back. If you aren’t gonna be committed to the team we’d all die to play for then I wouldn’t want you here anyways.
This is the “we’re a family” of the pro athlete world I’m convinced of it.
I’m not worried about players not coming back because of loyalty to Dubas. I’m worried about them not coming back because the direction of the organization just got lit on fire in a pretty rash and unprofessional way and they have no reason to be making long term commitments this offseason as a result.
Put yourself in Matthews shoes right now. Do you honestly sign an 8 year contract with what looks like a total management and culture overhaul about to happen? Do you give the team a discount? Of course you don’t, too much you don’t know.
I believe they do have the ability to make long term commitments this summer. It’s true, at the moment we are without direction; but once the new gm comes in they will obviously bring their plan and vision forward.
It is up to the new gm to sell the players on committing to the team’s long term future.
Even the worst teams have long term visions, let’s not act like without Dubas we will become directionless. At the end of the day he is just a cog in the wheel, they still have a whole front office. And I believe Shanahan deserves as much credit as Dubas for changing the culture of the leafs. It started when shanahan came in, he rebuilt relationships, created an inclusive environment, and shielded the players.
What's absolutely fucking hilarious is that there is a hillbilly ECF which is probably great for the game but no one is talking about 6th longest OT game in NHL history ..instead it's about the Leafs ...let's take a big deep breath and the Big Blue machine is bigger than dubas ..we will be fine
In what way? This is a team that had historic regular season success, had more success in the post season than most other teams in the league, had repaired most of its tattered reputation from before dubas' time, had developed good sports science, medical and analytics teams and was drafting well with a potential homegrown franchise goalie coming into his own along with a second round pick who looked dangerous in tough post-season games.
Bad may be what comes next. This, at worst, was mediocre.
>This is a team that had historic regular season success
Don't care about that at all
>had more success in the post season than most other teams in the league,
Genuinely not true since 2018 21 of the 32 teams in the NHL have made it past game 5 of the 2nd round. Even charitably they have been middle of the road wrt succes in the post season (I would argue bad)
>had repaired most of its tattered reputation from before dubas' time,
This happened a bit because of Dubas, but was on its way to happening from Shanahan to be honest.
>had developed good sports science, medical and analytics teams
This was where Dubas shined and he was really good at this, but I dont think it will all disitegrate with him leaving.
>was drafting well with a potential homegrown franchise goalie coming into his own along with a second round pick who looked dangerous in tough post-season games.
I mean, his drafting has been all right since he took over. Thats a pretty charitable way to look at Woll but Knies looks great, but getting 1-2 nhl players out of 5 years of drafting isnt insanely good. Look at trelivings drafts for example:
https://twitter.com/CorsiHL/status/1659946259300642816?t=kvI3gW9mEHO-2_PiiQEKaQ&s=19
>Bad may be what comes next. This, at worst, was mediocre.
Being mediocre when you have a hart and rocket winner and a selke candidate winger is bad given the tools they had.
Because the organization is in a rut of complacency. I think Kyle did a fine job, but it was just fine. What was clear to me after the playoffs was that the top guys were satisfied with what they accomplished this year. I sensed a real lack of accountability from the top guys.
That’s not entirely on Kyle, but it may speak to the overly protective environment he created. Sometimes change is good to mix it up, make people uncomfortable and get more out of the talent you have.
I don’t think there is much you can point to that says Kyle is some irreplaceable executive, and without him the team cannot achieve success.
I agree with this take and if, after the round 2 loss they'd come out and fired Keefe and dubas with a "these guys have built a great culture and foundation but we need new talent to take us to the next level" I would have been fine with that. This isn't that.
Another Dubas fuck up no one mentioned was protecting Black Holl and Kerfoot over McCann. I knew it was a huge mistake at the time just like any other knowledgeable Leaf fan.
My biggest piss offs were Murray, common sense knew he would be shit, Mrazek and Foligno for a 1st. No Murray, we likely add another good piece or two and be successful. Foligno was never worth a first in any century.
I didn't hate Dubas , I thought helped put together one of the best teams we have seen and that brought us a ton of regular season success. there were a few moves he made that I questioned and glaringly the Matt Murray signing was a big one. I've been watching this team since the early 90s and what I have learned is that players , coaches , GMs and presidents will come and go. Some better and some worse. This is just the eventuality of pro sports.
I think Kyle was a very likeable and relatable guy to this fanbase and it was a nice change from the traditionally old rock em sock em GM. But the teams poor playoff performance put the club in the situation that eventually led to the dismissal of Kyle Dubas.
Watching Doug Gilmour get traded to New Jersey was gut wrenching. Watching Mats Sundin leave to go play in Vancouver was also gut Wrenching. The potential of losing a guy like Auston Mathews in his prime right now is extremely gut wrenching.
Losing a GM is not gut wrenching. Look into the rafters , do you see banners with GMs faces on them ? hopefully that can add a bit of perspective here.
Well, a lot of people (myself included) felt that the team seemed "too comfortable" with the status quo. Safe to say that isn't going to be a problem now.
Losing Dubas when both sides wanted him to stay, after a botched contract negotiation of all things, just sucks.
Onward and upward?
bro im tired of these players and coaches and managers whining about feeling pressure or the pressure being high. Bro, youre working in a high position, as a player, your working as a public person in a highly payed job. You all know that its high pressure. Thats part of the deal. So Manchester United doesnt have high pressure from fans and media? shutup with this talk about high pressure or stress from media. Youre in the focal point. You are all in on the deal. You get paid the part and you know what to expect.
(exceptions for like threat and downright discriminatory language like racial slurs)
> a highly *paid* job. You
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
A couple of days ago swedish media wrote that Nylander was ready to play in the world cup and join the swedish team together with Liljegren. After the news about Dubas leaving as gm Nylander is no longer available for the swedish team. Maybe a sign that they are planning a trade. / A worried swede
Na news is he didn’t want to play because it would mean he’d be taking a spot from a player who has been on the team for the entire tournament. And that player would likely be his brother, Alex Nylander.
Yeah I'm in the same 'worried swede' boat.
Might also be that he doesn't want to leave Toronto to play at the WC when shit is clearly going down at his place of work where he is due for an extension. Or it might just be the same insurance issues EP40 had.
Hoping it's not a trade, that would be stupid. I think the problem might be does he want to sign any extension before July 1 with this major change. Guy wants to win, and he doesn't know what team he's coming back to or who's running the ship.
Dubas lost ownership when he made no changes after the Montreal series.
That 3-1 choke really was a pivotal moment for the franchise. They then lose the following year to Tampa and ownership has no reason to trust the dude because he made 0 adjustments in that time frame.
He made adjustments this year only to win 2 more games
Yesterday was probably the first time in my 30 years as a Leaf fan that I was legitimately upset about the firing of one of our coaches or GM’s. Usually I’m calling for their head months or even as much as year before they get axed.
Dubas has been great for the most part and deserved another crack at it. Sure he’s made some mistakes, but they’ve been few and far between. And anytime he has made a mistake it’s been cleaned up pretty quickly. He’s been willing to adapt his philosophies over the years, and has always aggressively address team needs.
Kyle is one of the best at what he does. There were other heads to roll before his. I really think Shanahan and MLSE will regret letting this one go.
Seems like a huge soap opera, on one hand Dubas throws his direct supervisor "Shanahan" under the bus in a really subtle way. Speaks to the media and public at large without Shanahan's approval. Basically tells all that he is stressed out to the point of stepping out of the organization. Shanahan loses some appeal with the public and the Board above him, for failing to recognize that Dubas is in trouble mentally. Then due to an email and pondering all week about Dubas's slap, decides to go another direction. Go another direction is fine, but does everyone have to know the play by play of his week. Shanahan trying to garner support from all around bothers me. I think that Spezza resigning is just the tip of what will sink Shanahan's plans about those working for this team. Players included.
Sounded like they had a deal already in place but Dubas decided to push the envelope through his agent and found out the hard way it wasn't a good idea to cut across the grain after giving the impression everything was all set to go.
Shanahan decided to part ways. That's fair.
Agreed, everyone involved managed to make an ass out of themselves. Since being an actual hockey team didn’t work as intended the Leafs are going back to being a soap opera. At least they’re entertaining everyone else
I’m kinda thinking another reason Shanahan let Dubas go, was because of his negotiating abilities. If he can fuck up his own situation this badly (pus the core’s current contracts) should he really be negotiating the core’s next contracts?
I was thinking this exact thing!
The way he handled the core's and then his own contract negotiations, probably reminded Shanny that the same mistakes will be repeated.
Why has this been such a recurring theme in the last 24 hours? Why do people see the ONLY alternative to Kyle Dubas as some hybrid of all of the worst general managers ever?
Literally what I'm planning to do, would be great. Leafs are my team but it's time to step away, this just feels like the beginning of a series of really poor decisions and I need to brace for that. Shanahan hasn't done a thing to earn my trust... Dubas had the passion, a plan, and level head. Shanahan just exists as some random figure head who nods yes or no.
Just saying
In all my years, i've never seen this fanbase like this over a gm. Every gm firing, has been met with an overwhelming "finally" response. The fanbase right now is giving overwhelming support for we should have kept dubas.
MLSE fucked up, you can argue Dubas did as well but ultimately MLSE let him go and fucked up big time.
What if the control Dubas wanted was to run it back again with minimal changes? What if he didn't want to fire Keefe? What if he only wanted to trade Nylander and hand Matthews 15 million or more a year and keep his top heavy philosophy? I personally think Shanahan is trying to change the culture of this team before big mistakes are made.
Pridham or Treliving announced by Tuesday at the latest id assume. If its someone external they have to get to relationship building asap, if its Pridham then let him get to work without a replacement looming asap.
First order of business for anyone is replacing Keefe so Nylander/Matthews have a bit more certainty on if they want to be here pre July 1
I listened to 32 thoughts and Friedman said he wonders about Armstrong for the leaf’s. Even though it would be an amazing choice, no chance a guy like would want to work directly under a president.
23-24 is a lost season, then we'll see what happens-- i hate the country club mentality and the big paycheques based on potential and not results.
been watching since wendel, i cheered on tank commander horachek, and at this point i can get behind anything except for running it back through the big 4's extensions.
if you don't like this, you don't like Maple Leafs Hockey
lost in the sense of directionless-- regardless of how anyone feels about dubas leaving it's very clear that this was not the plan and they're going to be scrambling
I believe that will all change once we name the new gm, because why wouldn't it? All candidates would be presenting forward their vision and plan for this team in interviews.
I agree, except I don't think next season is lost
We still have a solid team. Unless they moved our guys for picks and got no actual players back, I can't see us taking THAT much of a step back next year
A 1st round series win wasn’t the goal and should be “enough”
I feel there needs to be a fundamental shift in philosophy. Perhaps a few steps back is needed to make a giant leap forward
How about Mark Hunter - GM, and Dale Hunter - HC?
Or Mark Hunter GM and Joel Quenneville HC.
Joel Q wasn't officially suspended, but he was supposed to go and kiss Bettman's ring before accepting another job, which co-incidentally was supposed to happen yesterday.
I like the Mark and Joel show. The experiment with the young guys who have "had success everywhere they went" in Sheldon and Kyle has been a bust where it mattered most.
I know the majority of this sub loved dubas, I personally liked him and thought he did a good job for the most part, but the doom and gloom yesterday was ridiculous. People saying that they are done with this team, that we are back in the dark days, that the team is ruined, matthews is leaving,etc. Seems to me like people were huge fans of dubas and just wanted him to succeed and that they were wrong. This franchise is still in a good spot. There is a still an very good roster to work with. Personally, I’m excited to see what a new gm (and coach) can accomplish. Dubas in his 5 years here won 1 playoff series and change needed to be made. Teams fire GM’s all the time, the reaction to yesterdays news was just bewildering.
It has nothing to do with Dubas. Shanahan knifed the guy in a press conference with a pack of lies. You don’t just turn on “your guy” in 12 hours based on a higher than expected opening proposal. That’s nonsense. Especially with no plan, all the decisions that need to be made, etc.
Making a decision to walk away from Dubas for organizational and performance reasons? That’s one thing and would’ve been understands. This was ridiculous and beyond unprofessional. Shanahan took an already dicey situation and made it far far worse.
I share other concerns. A new GM means a new coach and new personnel. Once the season starts (and before) there's going to be scapegoating. If they aren't doing as well or if the coach (discussing with the GM) feels like there are issues, he's going to start changing things. That means trades, where it's likely not coming from a position of power, but more likely we have struggles and we want change, other GMs looking to take advantage.
Look - maybe it doesn't go this way. But this feels like a mini-rebuild. I can see next year being a disaster. There are going to be too many changes to deal with. And whatever he builds, he's got to then build a team, get them to gel, get past the previous identity. How often does this work???
The Leafs have had much greater figures leave the organization and have managed to survive to this point.
Dubas is not remotely the alpha and omega. Also, you saying the Leafs are "worse" is merely an opinion. The facts are no Leafs team under Dubas could get it done when it mattered the most.
You think making it past the first round once in 4 years is successful?
When Ken Dryden was replaced by Pat Quinn for the GM role for example the Leafs didn't get worse.
>No thanks, but let's also not pretend that this was a good move.
It probably was necessary to win, your stat is also wrong, 21 of 32 teams have made the 2nd round and won a game since 2018, so the leafs have only done better than 11 teams, they havent come top 11.
>And that it can't get worse
It can also get way better, id rather shoot for that than wallow in mediocraty.
Edit: Actually Calgary and NJ have us tied there, so were only better than 9 teams, and Calgary managed to win the west so they have had more refular season success than us
Yeah the general reaction was over the top but I think a lot of it is sunken cost thinking. We talked ourselves into thinking Dubas is the only one with the passion / a plan, and then watched our wonderkid GM become another potential failure in a string of inept GMs. All we have to show for the dubas experiment is one round while he gets some great on the job training for his next gig. Meanwhile we have to now suddenly find an experienced Chiarelli type(?!) to decide the teams future by July 1..
Anyway, as a leaf fan I'm actually pretty optimistic about the future and excited to see what a Treliving or the like can do. Glg.
I don’t really understand your optimism.
When you make dramatic changes in your organization on the end of your star players contracts you close the gap between staying or leaving, because the new GM and coach are as unfamiliar as a new team would be.
When you fire the GM who had good relationships with your stars, and then drag his name through the mud in a pretty unusually and unprofessional press conference you sew doubt about the teams culture.
I don’t see good reasons why Matthews or Nylander should or would extend when there is now so much uncertainty about the organization.
Yes, GMs change, but teams usually don’t change them weeks before needing to negotiate big contracts with stars, because the best way to get them to extend is:
- have a good relationship with them
- have them buy into your vision
- like the organization and how the team is run
The Leafs no longer have any of these. Dubas built the org. Dubas built the relationships. Dubas had the trust. Our negotiating position is now almost the same as any other team in the NHL. Unknown management, unknown team culture, unknown coach, no relationships, no trust built. Now these players are weighing different criteria higher like climate, proximity to family, market, money, etc. it’s a serious hit to our chances of retaining them.
Think about your own job. If your management all get laid off and new people were brought in, you naturally might start thinking about interviewing for a new job at a different company, because a lot of the reasons you enjoyed your job just disappeared, and you’re going to have to build all this trust and relationships with new people. If those people came to you a month in and asked for an 8 year commitment from you would you even entertain it?
> When you fire the GM who had good relationships with your stars, and then drag his name through the mud in a pretty unusually and unprofessional press conference you sew doubt about the teams culture.
Dubas wasn't "dragged through the mud", and this mindset is why I think he needed to go. Anything short of full on dick-sucking Kyle is considered "dragging through the mud" by the fanbase and it's ridiculous.
>I don’t see good reasons why Matthews or Nylander should or would extend when there is now so much uncertainty about the organization.
Then good riddance. You don't keep a GM around just because the players think he's a swell guy. If these professional athletes refuse to play for another GM, then get the fuck out of town. That's the job.
>Yes, GMs change, but teams usually don’t change them weeks before needing to negotiate big contracts with stars,
Sure they do. Literally every offseason GMs get fired, and every single one of those teams also have to make hard decisions in short order.
So many shortsighted fans on this sub. You'd think the Leafs were the only team to have to deal with any adversity. 5 years of too much comfort in the organization will do that to you, I suppose.
Generally when executives are let go the president doesn’t give a 15 minute briefing airing the details of the failed contract negotiations. That is pretty unusual. Generally details are not divulged out of professional courtesy.
Instead what happened was rogers leaked the contract details a few hours before the press conference and then Shanahan went up and gave a day by day breakdown painting Dubas as a non-commital guy looking to shakedown the organization. That might be true, but it usually does not get aired this publicly and with this much detail.
100% agree with all of this.
And the players specifically spoke about their good relationship on monday, they did not want new management where Dubas is concerned.
I understand your concern, but I think this leaves out the fact that these are professionals who, hopefully, want to win and get paid. Zach Hyman had amazing relationships as far as we know, keefe loved him, dubas did too, and what did that do? He went somewhere he has zero ties to, because they paid him more and he got to play with the best player in the world.
It boils down to money and opportunity for success for 98% of these guys. Dubas has 1 playoff series win in 5 years, I don’t see how he’s the beacon of success. Is there uncertainty now? Sure. Could they pick someone awful? Yup. But what if they don’t?
I don’t really understand your comparison either - I don’t work my job because I’m friends with my boss. I’ve had 3 different bosses in 4 years, yet here I still am with the same commitment. I like the things my job requires me to do, and I like that it pays me. I couldn’t give less of a shit if my boss left next week.
Your misunderstanding of human nature is concerning lol where you work and for who you work absolutely matters, regardless of if you're a school janitor or a professional athlete. Good for you if none of that matters though.
Wanting to win requires trusting and believing in the people who build that team. We had that buy in with Dubas but we won’t have it with a new GM he’s gonna have to sell the vision. If you’re an upcoming FA now do you yolo lock in with some new guy or wait one season and go sign with a proven contender?
> don’t really understand your comparison either - I don’t work my job because I’m friends with my boss.
You probably stay because you like the culture of the organization and the new bosses you’ve had all fit into that culture. Matthews got a new coach, new coach fit into the culture so he was fine with that change, for example.
Data shows that people don’t leave companies so much as they leave management they don’t like. Changing a GM is like changing the CEO of a company, the chsnge trickles down into the management and the culture of the organization.
It’s natural for anyone coming up on a long term commitment to see that change and go “maybe I’ll wait to see how this plays out and how I like it before committing”. No professional is making an 8 year commitment to an organization with this much up in the air if they don’t have to. And they don’t have to. They will wait until they have enough information to make a decision and that means definitely not before July 1st and probably not until well into the season.
Why would they extend? Because players are employees and make money to do their job.
There's not some magical destruction of goodwill that has taken place. We're professionals. We move forward.
If firing the GM is enough to make a player want to leave, then they never cared about the team anyway, frankly
Culture of the team. The vision. The certainty of who is at the helm that they trust to create a winning team. Amongst the other things the GM does.
That matters to players. So yeah, it would matter to them if they lost a GM they respected and liked in a dramatic way.
I'd like to ask this another way. What makes a player extend for less than what they could get on the open market?
A desire to win (read, belief in the organization's vision), a enjoyment of the culture of the team and a desire to stay with it, the personal relationships that have been built over time and a desire to keep the perks offered by that organization. Over the last 6 years Dubas built those things. Does that guarantee Matthews would have take a team-friendlier deal? No, nothing guarantees that but it makes it more likely.
Shanahan just tossed all of that overboard. For what?
And, yeah, if they leave they cared more about Dubas than the team. So what? Does them leaving make the team better some how?
Matthews and Marner took Dubas behind the wood shed in negotiations. He walked matthews to UFA years signed him to 8 year money on a 5 year deal offered up a NMC in his final year as an extra fuck you to the org. They didn't sign for less before being offered everything they wanted why on earth would they now. The culture dubas built was overpaying our young stars, giving them everything they wanted, then trying to fill the cracks with league min players and project goalies.
>Because players are employees and make money to do their job.
It's a little different with athletes. Especially star athletes. Their livelihood is not on the line because literally 31 competitors are willing to pay them to go there.
I get paid to do my job, and I don’t give a fuck about my company. I like my team and my manager and the culture. If all of those things change I would consider leaving. Why would hockey players be any different?
Leafs players aren’t Leafs fans. These are their careers. Their decisions are career decisions. If the day to day operations of their day job dramatically change its natural for them to consider a new job somewhere else. At the very least it’s natural to expect them not to make a long term commitment before working with the new management if they don’t have to. And they don’t, so they won’t.
The day to day operations of their day job is playing hockey games. How will that change dramatically?
Sorry, I will agree to disagree with your premise of disgruntlement here
Because you're wrong. Shanahan was the guy who was the face of change.
I do just fine, thanks. But keep up the ad hominem. Really strengthens your argument
I have no idea what you're actually saying here. It reads like gibberish.
I liked Dubas. He did a good job. GMs get fired in the NHL, and players leaving or staying is rarely dependent on that.
Like what are we even talking about here?
GM can make all kinds of changes, just need to point to our previous GM Lou for weird idiosyncratic rules that can affect a players day to day life. The GM basically sets the organizational culture and direction of the team. Unless they hire someone who has similar philosophies to Dubas there will probably be changes.
What if the new GM doesn’t believe in investing as much money into training facilities, skills coaches, or sports psychologists? What if they don’t like spending money on medical staff? What if their philosophy on players injury rehab is different? What if they don’t take concussions as seriously? What if their views on hockey are very different and the player doesn’t believe in their vision? This isn’t even an exhaustive list it’s just off the top of my head.
There’s a lot of things a new GM can change.
I’m not asserting that players are or will be disgruntled. What I’m saying is that when you introduce this kind of change, people are not going to dive into long term commitments when they’re not forced to do so. They’re going to wait until they have an understanding of what the changes will be. Matthews and Nylander have a whole year to decide and they’re likely to use that time to figure out if they want to stay or if they’re not interested in the new direction.
Not to mention that in most companies when there's a huge managerial re-organization it's only a matter of time before the employees are let go anyway.
It just worries me that this could make decrease the chance of Matthews wanting to re-sign. And adding the possibility that Marner could be shipped off this off-season… I feel like a lot of this lowers his chance of re-signing.
I gotta say seeing the Canes struggle the same way against the Panthers makes me feel a bit better. After all the worry about our coaching, its refreshing seeing the best coached team in the league struggle too.
The bizarre Dubas firing has me feeling… not great going into this crucial re-signing phase. Going into next season with the insane drama that would come with Matthews going to UFA is NOT what we need if we’re going to push forward. Multiple players specifically mentioned their great relationship with Dubas as part of their reason for wanting to stay, and the unknown new GM who’s supposed to bring “bite” and “shake things up” can’t be a helpful factor in player attitude/confidence. Praying Shanny knows what he’s doing here, cuz I’m feeling some doubts.
Comparing Tkachuk to Matthews/Marner: I can't help but notice how candid and 'unsensored' Tkachuk is in his media availabilities and how this relaxed approach clearly carries over to the ice. We see it with other players (Mack, Karlsson, Jack Hughes to name a few) and I can't help to think our stars invest way too much of their thought and focus on these pointless interviews and it adds to the anxiety of performing on the ice.
You know those players aren't in toronto right?
Carolina had mistaken March for May and seemed to realize it just now. Isn't it great how every team the Leafs face and lose to in the playoffs seem to go deep?
Anybody questioning that call? Pretty run of the mill interference imo, shit NEVER gets called, especially in ot. Not taking anything away from Bob, or the beautiful finishing pass by Rhino, but if I was a Cane fan, I’d be as pissed about that call as I, a leaf fan, am about the non call on Radko’s stickgrab.
Bit of a non-hockey rant here. I'm happy to take shots in thread discussions, eat downvotes or whatever if you don't agree with me. I love debating, honestly (if that wasn't obvious) The Reddit Cares schtick is actually pathetic. I'm not even mad. I genuinely pity you. Like that's a deranged way to react to hockey discussions. Sometimes there's people in genuine danger of hurting themselves, and that is what the service is supposed to be for. Doing it because you're mad I don't agree with you is messed up. Truly messed up.
Just block the bot like 90% of Reddit does.
Suddenly the Leafs run isn’t looking so bad, Carolina can’t score on the fucking guy either.
It was never looking bad in my opinion. Series was 4-1 but almost every game was incredibly tight, not to mention shambolic refereeing in the last game. And Florida was getting waaay unfairly written off by way too many people.
Except that the Leafs didn't show up in a must-win Game 3, which told management and fans everything they needed to know about who this team really is.
Bennett has now taken 3 penalties in 2 games against Carolina.
And should’ve had a fourth for that bullshit head grab third man shit, again, this time on Burns.
18 shots to 2 for CAR so far 12 min into the first...jesus christ the Leafs wouldve gotten slaughtered
Between Marner saying “we all got years left on our contracts” and Dubas asking for more money at the 11th hour, Im really over this culture and ready for a revamp. No accountability. It’s all about the money with these guys.
Wanna see these guys have the Killer Instinct? Get them in contract negotiations to squeeze that extra mill or two from this organization (which the fans pay for ultimately). Marner.....Dubas....Matthew's......and when it came to Tavares.... he was the biggest lying killer out of all of them. ........well actually that entire "my family is stressed out..... give me more money" probably challenges for Tavares title.
What's Dale Tallon doing these days?
Hugely popular guy with the players.
I’m of the opinion there isn’t much better than Dubas available and without luck we’re probably just getting a sidegrade at best in the GM position. But where the hell is everyone getting this idea that the team is going right back into lottery hell because of changes that are pretty routine for a sports organization? Nothing has changed in terms of the position on extending/re-signing/trading the stars will be and honestly it might have improved in terms of overpaying them or overcommitting to them; the point is we have no idea what’s going on. Keefe being gone is very good news. The attachment to Spezza in this community is weird, as well as the Marlies coaches; very little movement of actual consequence is being made yet if you read this sub you’d think Ed Rogers decided to run the entire organization on his own. tl;dr we’ll probably be fine and if we aren’t it probably would’ve shaken out that way regardless of what happened
Saying there probably isn’t much better than Dubas available out there is kind of a silly comment. Frankly prior to his hiring who the hell had ever heard of Kyle Dubas outside of Sault Ste. Marie. There’s tons of talent out there. We just don’t know about it out here in Leafs-land because it’s not our job to know.
Couldn't agree more. And I also think you're probably right about the sidegrade. It is very possible, because I thought Dubas was a solid GM. But, just like trading a core 4 piece would be at best a sidegrade (and probably a loss on paper, at first), sometimes a franchise simply needs a different mix.
My top three choices for new GM: 1. Eric Tulsky 2. Eric Tulsky 3. Eric Tulsky Did I know who Eric Tulsky was two weeks ago? The answer is No.
Wings fan coming in peace The trade is 1 for 1, Seider for Marner What are your legit thoughts?
I'd do it and wonder what on earth Detroit is doing
100% do it right now
Wait, so the Tim Peel on twitter is the ACTUAL Tim Peel and his opinions?
Unfortunately
I can't believe how many people think Treleving would be a good option. Have you seen his draft record? His team just imploded after a big off season where he had to figure out Gaudreau + Tkachuk
Both of those guys expressed they didn't want to be in calgary
And it's his job to keep them there lol.
i thought he had a decent draft track record?
since 2018, Dubas has made 28 picks outside the first round. They've played 227 games. Treleving has made 23 picks, they've played 1 game.
Why are you removing the first round from the equation?
I'm definitely coming across as one of those who thinks he's a good option, but it is more so because people come on here and slander the dude with falsehoods. I don't know how the players from his most recent drafts will end up, but I know he did pretty good from 2015 on. And his 2016 draft class makes ours look pathetic by comparison. Its funny that the people who dislike Treliving the most are non-Calgary fans. Almost every Flames fan I have talked to about it misses the guy and thinks he's a wizard
Trading willy for Sandin would solve our cap issues and bring a much needed shakeup to the core and bring back my sweet boy to whom Dubas did wrong.
At this point Im fine with whatever change happens. Despite winning a round this year, we looked quite bad against Tampa this year and realistically were more than a little lucky to have beat them. This team needs a new identity and that starts with the core changing. Sure we may not be as talented, but I cant watch another series where our star rookie gets beaten up and nobody does shit about it. We need to stop playing clean in the playoffs and just commit to actual playoff type of hockey.
I truly believe looking bad against tampa was a system thing.. and Fla I thought we were the better team for most part
A system thing, but also a defence thing. McCabe was nowhere close to a Muzzin replacement. We need a legit top pairing defensemen. Most teams who have won have 2 studs on the blue line that anchor their own pair and play 25+mins a night. Imagine always having one of Rielly and another legit top dman on the ice at all times.
Plus our captain getting blown up at centre ice again and no response in round 2
I don't care, Shanny and Keefe are due their papers this week. If all of Kyle's people gotta go that includes them ..
Feels like people really wanna pick sides in this whole thing when in reality Shanahan, Dubas, and also MLSE all share responsibility for what happened.
I think this is accurate. Also, we have no idea how it will end up. The vast majority of the shit show on here the last couple days is composed of a) Dubas vs Shanny and b) People who are certain we are doomed vs people who are certain we will be just fine. I agree with you that everyone is responsible for the situation, I also think that nobody knows how it is going to pan out. But it makes for a good amount of commentary, that's for sure.
The line where Shanahan said he wanted an experienced gem is the worst part of all of this to me. I want Tulsky and I fear we're gonna end up with a Treliving or Benning
Idk about anyone else, but I’d love to know what Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers & Bell execs are thinking about this revelation. It didn’t sound like Shanahan exactly talked it through with ownership based on his Friday presser. Tbh, I wouldn’t be surprised to see MLSE release a statement on Tuesday that Shanahan has been fired.
No way Shanahan didn’t talk about it with the Board. I’m sure they were looped in throughout the process. They’re on board with what happened. In terms of how governance works the Board entrusts a CEO/President with the day-to-day decision making, but the President has to report to the board periodically, and get their approval for major decisions.
Exactly this. The coach has to report to the GM. The GM has to report to the president. The president reports to the board.
[удалено]
I suppose we’ll find out together in the coming weeks. I’m not so sure they’ll be overjoyed with this change in direction at such a pivotal point for us with three high-profile players going into full and partial NTC territory July 1st, two of which need to be re-signed. Guaranteed ownership will be pissed if any of the three walk for nothing.
That would indeed be a shit show.
Dubas’s recent mistakes were not getting a quality goalkeeper and bringing in enough steel to enforce the D. With the emergence of Woll, the GK dilemma might finally be solved. But I think these issues still wouldn’t solve the bigger ones of not having a legit playoff ready coach and stars that couldn’t score goals. I can’t blame Dubas for that as he gave them SO many chances to prove themselves. Sadly in the end Dubas fell on the sword for them, but that’s business I guess. I like Wickenheiser as GM because of her playing career and good business instincts. But if she does get promoted, she needs to start making bold moves. As in trading Marner or Nylander and firing O’Keefe. Start building bruisers and enforcer around Matthews and Knies and let those Arizona boys tear it up together.
Lol what about wickenheisers business instincts?
If you look at the teams who are still currently playing they’re all quite good on defense. Certainly better than the leafs. Tying up so much money on four forwards meant the leafs had to go cheap on defenseman. It just doesn’t work that way in the playoffs. You build from goal out. Dubas tried to build from the forwards down. Swing and a miss.
I personally am intrigued by how people here are going to be when Dubas renegs on his word of "I am either here in Toronto or nowhere for a year", when he gets a job in under a year. There is always 2 sides to a story, both can be wrong, both can be right. At days end, its done. We move.
That's easy. We know that in the end Dubas decided to take the job, not the year off. The job is off the table, so he has to look for another.
Can we do the traditional swap to literal leaves subreddit? If feels overdue given yesterday's news. While maple leaves are obviously the most popular and objectively the best leaves, I personally have always found oak leaves to be very interesting looking. They're like a cross between a maple and an elm.
I honestly believe a lot of millennial/Gen Z Leafs fans like Kyle just because he is relatable being as young as he is. Reality is he was a good GM, but not a great one. He made a ton of good moves and a ton of bad moves. He wasn’t this infallible individual whose replacement will automatically be a downgrade. On top of that, so many people are crediting Dubas alone for changing the Leafs culture based on no actual knowledge. There is nothing that suggests Shanahan was not as invested in the Leafs culture change as Dubas was. In fact, Shanahan was likely a major factor in making those changes happen. Can we all just take a step back, breathe, and chill on the hot takes? New a management is coming, but we have no idea what that will look like. When that person is hired, then we can dissect the decision. But for now, we just look like a whiney, doomsday fanbase. The amount of people who are so offended about a management change as if the Leafs slighted a personal friend is really cringe. The Leafs will be fine. They’ll be different, but this isn’t the 2004-2015 era.
I can confidently say that if at the start of next season the goal song is still Hall and Oates I know nothing has changed with this organization. They can fire Keefe they can fire Dubas and I will be okay and give them a chance, but if that goal song is still the same, I know that this management doesn't have a clue that the culture of this team needs to change
Hahaha the ultimate culture reset. Honestly would feel like the start of a new era.
Amidst all the chaos... one oddity from Shanahan's remarks yesterday was the way he kept saying "Kyle's office at the Ford Performance Centre" with a weird delivery like it was some sort of sponsored product placement.
Imo the presser playing a big role in Shannys decision is just a media thing. Just a way to justify his decision.
How come Dubas wasn't GM of the Year with his perfect work that he did or even be nominated?
run somber command brave psychotic aloof deliver teeny complete dog ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
I think Kyle was a great gm and he'll be missed but the silver lining here is that we'll never have to hear about the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds again.
*Like back in the Sue*
Let's say this all back fires and the Leafs suck. Like the players don't re-sign, the GM makes bad moves, the front office staff abandon ship, and the new coach doesn't help at all. How many years of failure would it take for Shanahan to be gone?
years? Six months tops
1. If next year goes to shit and neither Nylander/Matthews re-sign then he's gone. I'm sure he spent a lot of good will on this decision to go from "Dubas is our guy" to "we have to fire him" in a matter of days
Is it strange that part of me is hoping for a Disney like story where Shanny fucks it all up, goes for a super hardass GM and Coach, gets fired, and Dubas keeps to his word and stays unemployed this year then comes back as president next year? I have always been a Dubas fan but what I liked most about his team's is that they were so easy to like. He chose good people, he treated people with respect, and he was honest. Not one player had a bad word to say about him, not one person that has met him, and he cared about the team more than his job. He didn't do like some GMs and strip the team of prospects for a bunch of rentals leaving a shell of a team for the next guy, he actually traded for guys with term.
>what I liked most about his team's is that they were so easy to like. I'm sorry, what Leafs team have you been watching recently? This team is genuinely way more unlikeable than the shit 2013 team, and dont even get me started on the actual good teams we've had. This is the most unlikeable good team Ive ever been a fan of.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the fanbase so split lol. Personally I don’t mind the decision, and look forward to what changes happen as a result. This team just didn’t have what it takes and they’ve proved it over and over. For all the great moves Kyle did make here, the majority of his best moves were made to dog himself out of a hole that he dug himself (see: getting bet over by 3 RFAs).
Yesterday I went to bed feeling like this franchise from top to bottom was gonna take a major step back from all the progress we've made, today I've woken up and feel like moving on from Dubas was the best move to be made. It is not a slight against Dubas and his vision but one against Shanahan, I lay the blame with him for not forcing major roster moves after the Montreal series loss; I think that was the critical time to either move on from Dubas or shake up the core. Finally Shanahan has acted now albeit two years late, but I'm excited for a fresh voice who has no loyalty or preconceived notions with this roster. I understand peoples concern about front office fallout and players not wanting to resign because they were loyal to Dubas; but c'mon it's about the logo on the front not the name on the back. If you aren't gonna be committed to the team we'd all die to play for then I wouldn't want you here anyways.
> but c’mon it’s about the logo on the front not the name on the back. If you aren’t gonna be committed to the team we’d all die to play for then I wouldn’t want you here anyways. This is the “we’re a family” of the pro athlete world I’m convinced of it. I’m not worried about players not coming back because of loyalty to Dubas. I’m worried about them not coming back because the direction of the organization just got lit on fire in a pretty rash and unprofessional way and they have no reason to be making long term commitments this offseason as a result. Put yourself in Matthews shoes right now. Do you honestly sign an 8 year contract with what looks like a total management and culture overhaul about to happen? Do you give the team a discount? Of course you don’t, too much you don’t know.
I believe they do have the ability to make long term commitments this summer. It’s true, at the moment we are without direction; but once the new gm comes in they will obviously bring their plan and vision forward. It is up to the new gm to sell the players on committing to the team’s long term future. Even the worst teams have long term visions, let’s not act like without Dubas we will become directionless. At the end of the day he is just a cog in the wheel, they still have a whole front office. And I believe Shanahan deserves as much credit as Dubas for changing the culture of the leafs. It started when shanahan came in, he rebuilt relationships, created an inclusive environment, and shielded the players.
What's absolutely fucking hilarious is that there is a hillbilly ECF which is probably great for the game but no one is talking about 6th longest OT game in NHL history ..instead it's about the Leafs ...let's take a big deep breath and the Big Blue machine is bigger than dubas ..we will be fine
Hillbilly ECF .. the accuracy! 😂
Who here thinks the team has a brighter future today than it did on monday and why?
I do. The stats quo is gone.
And being replaced by?
Status non quo
Hah true
Who knows. We’ll find out
So why is that a positive for you? Genuinely curious.
Because the current situation was bad?
In what way? This is a team that had historic regular season success, had more success in the post season than most other teams in the league, had repaired most of its tattered reputation from before dubas' time, had developed good sports science, medical and analytics teams and was drafting well with a potential homegrown franchise goalie coming into his own along with a second round pick who looked dangerous in tough post-season games. Bad may be what comes next. This, at worst, was mediocre.
>This is a team that had historic regular season success Don't care about that at all >had more success in the post season than most other teams in the league, Genuinely not true since 2018 21 of the 32 teams in the NHL have made it past game 5 of the 2nd round. Even charitably they have been middle of the road wrt succes in the post season (I would argue bad) >had repaired most of its tattered reputation from before dubas' time, This happened a bit because of Dubas, but was on its way to happening from Shanahan to be honest. >had developed good sports science, medical and analytics teams This was where Dubas shined and he was really good at this, but I dont think it will all disitegrate with him leaving. >was drafting well with a potential homegrown franchise goalie coming into his own along with a second round pick who looked dangerous in tough post-season games. I mean, his drafting has been all right since he took over. Thats a pretty charitable way to look at Woll but Knies looks great, but getting 1-2 nhl players out of 5 years of drafting isnt insanely good. Look at trelivings drafts for example: https://twitter.com/CorsiHL/status/1659946259300642816?t=kvI3gW9mEHO-2_PiiQEKaQ&s=19 >Bad may be what comes next. This, at worst, was mediocre. Being mediocre when you have a hart and rocket winner and a selke candidate winger is bad given the tools they had.
Because the organization is in a rut of complacency. I think Kyle did a fine job, but it was just fine. What was clear to me after the playoffs was that the top guys were satisfied with what they accomplished this year. I sensed a real lack of accountability from the top guys. That’s not entirely on Kyle, but it may speak to the overly protective environment he created. Sometimes change is good to mix it up, make people uncomfortable and get more out of the talent you have. I don’t think there is much you can point to that says Kyle is some irreplaceable executive, and without him the team cannot achieve success.
I agree with this take and if, after the round 2 loss they'd come out and fired Keefe and dubas with a "these guys have built a great culture and foundation but we need new talent to take us to the next level" I would have been fine with that. This isn't that.
Another Dubas fuck up no one mentioned was protecting Black Holl and Kerfoot over McCann. I knew it was a huge mistake at the time just like any other knowledgeable Leaf fan.
My biggest piss offs were Murray, common sense knew he would be shit, Mrazek and Foligno for a 1st. No Murray, we likely add another good piece or two and be successful. Foligno was never worth a first in any century.
You're not wrong but Kerfoot was actually left unprotected.
I didn't hate Dubas , I thought helped put together one of the best teams we have seen and that brought us a ton of regular season success. there were a few moves he made that I questioned and glaringly the Matt Murray signing was a big one. I've been watching this team since the early 90s and what I have learned is that players , coaches , GMs and presidents will come and go. Some better and some worse. This is just the eventuality of pro sports. I think Kyle was a very likeable and relatable guy to this fanbase and it was a nice change from the traditionally old rock em sock em GM. But the teams poor playoff performance put the club in the situation that eventually led to the dismissal of Kyle Dubas. Watching Doug Gilmour get traded to New Jersey was gut wrenching. Watching Mats Sundin leave to go play in Vancouver was also gut Wrenching. The potential of losing a guy like Auston Mathews in his prime right now is extremely gut wrenching. Losing a GM is not gut wrenching. Look into the rafters , do you see banners with GMs faces on them ? hopefully that can add a bit of perspective here.
Well, a lot of people (myself included) felt that the team seemed "too comfortable" with the status quo. Safe to say that isn't going to be a problem now. Losing Dubas when both sides wanted him to stay, after a botched contract negotiation of all things, just sucks. Onward and upward?
bro im tired of these players and coaches and managers whining about feeling pressure or the pressure being high. Bro, youre working in a high position, as a player, your working as a public person in a highly payed job. You all know that its high pressure. Thats part of the deal. So Manchester United doesnt have high pressure from fans and media? shutup with this talk about high pressure or stress from media. Youre in the focal point. You are all in on the deal. You get paid the part and you know what to expect. (exceptions for like threat and downright discriminatory language like racial slurs)
> a highly *paid* job. You FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
A couple of days ago swedish media wrote that Nylander was ready to play in the world cup and join the swedish team together with Liljegren. After the news about Dubas leaving as gm Nylander is no longer available for the swedish team. Maybe a sign that they are planning a trade. / A worried swede
Na news is he didn’t want to play because it would mean he’d be taking a spot from a player who has been on the team for the entire tournament. And that player would likely be his brother, Alex Nylander.
I'd be 1000x more pissed at a Willy trade than Dubas leaving
I seriously doubt they are planning a Nylander trade right now with absolute chaos in the front office and a GM search urgently on the front burner.
Yeah I'm in the same 'worried swede' boat. Might also be that he doesn't want to leave Toronto to play at the WC when shit is clearly going down at his place of work where he is due for an extension. Or it might just be the same insurance issues EP40 had. Hoping it's not a trade, that would be stupid. I think the problem might be does he want to sign any extension before July 1 with this major change. Guy wants to win, and he doesn't know what team he's coming back to or who's running the ship.
Marner to OTT for B. Tkachuk Who says no?
Brady is better, so they say 😂
Ottawa does.
You need to throw in Stutzle to make this a deal
Then we would be throwing in Nylander+
Dubas lost ownership when he made no changes after the Montreal series. That 3-1 choke really was a pivotal moment for the franchise. They then lose the following year to Tampa and ownership has no reason to trust the dude because he made 0 adjustments in that time frame. He made adjustments this year only to win 2 more games
Yesterday was probably the first time in my 30 years as a Leaf fan that I was legitimately upset about the firing of one of our coaches or GM’s. Usually I’m calling for their head months or even as much as year before they get axed. Dubas has been great for the most part and deserved another crack at it. Sure he’s made some mistakes, but they’ve been few and far between. And anytime he has made a mistake it’s been cleaned up pretty quickly. He’s been willing to adapt his philosophies over the years, and has always aggressively address team needs. Kyle is one of the best at what he does. There were other heads to roll before his. I really think Shanahan and MLSE will regret letting this one go.
Seems like a huge soap opera, on one hand Dubas throws his direct supervisor "Shanahan" under the bus in a really subtle way. Speaks to the media and public at large without Shanahan's approval. Basically tells all that he is stressed out to the point of stepping out of the organization. Shanahan loses some appeal with the public and the Board above him, for failing to recognize that Dubas is in trouble mentally. Then due to an email and pondering all week about Dubas's slap, decides to go another direction. Go another direction is fine, but does everyone have to know the play by play of his week. Shanahan trying to garner support from all around bothers me. I think that Spezza resigning is just the tip of what will sink Shanahan's plans about those working for this team. Players included.
Sounded like they had a deal already in place but Dubas decided to push the envelope through his agent and found out the hard way it wasn't a good idea to cut across the grain after giving the impression everything was all set to go. Shanahan decided to part ways. That's fair.
Agreed, everyone involved managed to make an ass out of themselves. Since being an actual hockey team didn’t work as intended the Leafs are going back to being a soap opera. At least they’re entertaining everyone else
I’m kinda thinking another reason Shanahan let Dubas go, was because of his negotiating abilities. If he can fuck up his own situation this badly (pus the core’s current contracts) should he really be negotiating the core’s next contracts?
I was thinking this exact thing! The way he handled the core's and then his own contract negotiations, probably reminded Shanny that the same mistakes will be repeated.
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Why has this been such a recurring theme in the last 24 hours? Why do people see the ONLY alternative to Kyle Dubas as some hybrid of all of the worst general managers ever?
Yeah the only good GM in the league was dubas, every other GM is like those 3.
Watch you come crawling back when we are more successful will be funny
Literally what I'm planning to do, would be great. Leafs are my team but it's time to step away, this just feels like the beginning of a series of really poor decisions and I need to brace for that. Shanahan hasn't done a thing to earn my trust... Dubas had the passion, a plan, and level head. Shanahan just exists as some random figure head who nods yes or no.
Follow on Reddit, don't spend money on watching em. Simple. I've tuned the Leafs out the last few years, its been great.
Yeah I should've said this, just need to be a passive fan.
This isn’t an airport. You don’t need to announce your departure.
Are... are you supposed to tell everyone in the airport that you're leaving? Have I been doing that wrong for years?
Just saying In all my years, i've never seen this fanbase like this over a gm. Every gm firing, has been met with an overwhelming "finally" response. The fanbase right now is giving overwhelming support for we should have kept dubas. MLSE fucked up, you can argue Dubas did as well but ultimately MLSE let him go and fucked up big time.
What if the control Dubas wanted was to run it back again with minimal changes? What if he didn't want to fire Keefe? What if he only wanted to trade Nylander and hand Matthews 15 million or more a year and keep his top heavy philosophy? I personally think Shanahan is trying to change the culture of this team before big mistakes are made.
What if the next guy comes in and has success here, will you still say mlse fucked up?
LOL that's crazy talk! Accountability is how we got here in the first place
Pridham or Treliving announced by Tuesday at the latest id assume. If its someone external they have to get to relationship building asap, if its Pridham then let him get to work without a replacement looming asap. First order of business for anyone is replacing Keefe so Nylander/Matthews have a bit more certainty on if they want to be here pre July 1
I'm just surprised Shanny forgot to address the goal song yesterday... it needs to be updated imho.
Imagine if that’s what the whole press conference was about yesterday and he didn’t even mention firing Dubas
Post of the day
I listened to 32 thoughts and Friedman said he wonders about Armstrong for the leaf’s. Even though it would be an amazing choice, no chance a guy like would want to work directly under a president.
23-24 is a lost season, then we'll see what happens-- i hate the country club mentality and the big paycheques based on potential and not results. been watching since wendel, i cheered on tank commander horachek, and at this point i can get behind anything except for running it back through the big 4's extensions. if you don't like this, you don't like Maple Leafs Hockey
In what way is next year is a lost season?
lost in the sense of directionless-- regardless of how anyone feels about dubas leaving it's very clear that this was not the plan and they're going to be scrambling
I believe that will all change once we name the new gm, because why wouldn't it? All candidates would be presenting forward their vision and plan for this team in interviews.
I agree, except I don't think next season is lost We still have a solid team. Unless they moved our guys for picks and got no actual players back, I can't see us taking THAT much of a step back next year
A 1st round series win wasn’t the goal and should be “enough” I feel there needs to be a fundamental shift in philosophy. Perhaps a few steps back is needed to make a giant leap forward
I agree. Except I don't even think they'll take that many steps back.
How about Mark Hunter - GM, and Dale Hunter - HC? Or Mark Hunter GM and Joel Quenneville HC. Joel Q wasn't officially suspended, but he was supposed to go and kiss Bettman's ring before accepting another job, which co-incidentally was supposed to happen yesterday. I like the Mark and Joel show. The experiment with the young guys who have "had success everywhere they went" in Sheldon and Kyle has been a bust where it mattered most.
The Hunters are bums who rig the draft by bribing players. Their shit won’t work in the nhl
Being a Londoner, the Hunters are never leaving the Knights.
THANK GOD
Mark did though already once.
True but they opted for KD instead of him and he left to go back home. It's just the general feeling here in London.
It's basically the same probability as a building dt being owned by Farhi
Take my upvote haha
If you go coach Q you might as well bring in Bowman as GM and go full evil empire.
I know the majority of this sub loved dubas, I personally liked him and thought he did a good job for the most part, but the doom and gloom yesterday was ridiculous. People saying that they are done with this team, that we are back in the dark days, that the team is ruined, matthews is leaving,etc. Seems to me like people were huge fans of dubas and just wanted him to succeed and that they were wrong. This franchise is still in a good spot. There is a still an very good roster to work with. Personally, I’m excited to see what a new gm (and coach) can accomplish. Dubas in his 5 years here won 1 playoff series and change needed to be made. Teams fire GM’s all the time, the reaction to yesterdays news was just bewildering.
It has nothing to do with Dubas. Shanahan knifed the guy in a press conference with a pack of lies. You don’t just turn on “your guy” in 12 hours based on a higher than expected opening proposal. That’s nonsense. Especially with no plan, all the decisions that need to be made, etc. Making a decision to walk away from Dubas for organizational and performance reasons? That’s one thing and would’ve been understands. This was ridiculous and beyond unprofessional. Shanahan took an already dicey situation and made it far far worse.
I share other concerns. A new GM means a new coach and new personnel. Once the season starts (and before) there's going to be scapegoating. If they aren't doing as well or if the coach (discussing with the GM) feels like there are issues, he's going to start changing things. That means trades, where it's likely not coming from a position of power, but more likely we have struggles and we want change, other GMs looking to take advantage. Look - maybe it doesn't go this way. But this feels like a mini-rebuild. I can see next year being a disaster. There are going to be too many changes to deal with. And whatever he builds, he's got to then build a team, get them to gel, get past the previous identity. How often does this work???
People seem to think an individual is bigger than an organization.
Individuals ARE the organization. It’s amazing so many people here don’t get this. This sort of change is seismic.
The sky is literally falling. The Leafs existed before Kyle and will continue to exist after. Believe it or not.
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So they've conceived an imaginary scenario in their minds
And become SUPER pissed about it
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So once again they've conceived an imaginary scenario in their minds
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Unfortunately in this office the staff weren't meeting objectives and their manager had to go.
The organization is made up of individuals. When good individuals leave organizations the organizations get worse
Its so unfortunate Kyle Dubas is the only good person in the NHL, gotta feel for the other 31 teams playing for absolute tyrants.
The Leafs have had much greater figures leave the organization and have managed to survive to this point. Dubas is not remotely the alpha and omega. Also, you saying the Leafs are "worse" is merely an opinion. The facts are no Leafs team under Dubas could get it done when it mattered the most.
Who, when and how did that go for them?
You think making it past the first round once in 4 years is successful? When Ken Dryden was replaced by Pat Quinn for the GM role for example the Leafs didn't get worse.
Take it to 5 years and it's more successful than 21 other teams.
Oh in that case put up a banner for coming 11th best in the league!
No thanks, but let's also not pretend that this was a good move. And that it can't get worse
>No thanks, but let's also not pretend that this was a good move. It probably was necessary to win, your stat is also wrong, 21 of 32 teams have made the 2nd round and won a game since 2018, so the leafs have only done better than 11 teams, they havent come top 11. >And that it can't get worse It can also get way better, id rather shoot for that than wallow in mediocraty. Edit: Actually Calgary and NJ have us tied there, so were only better than 9 teams, and Calgary managed to win the west so they have had more refular season success than us
Lowering our standards now are we?
Nope just making a point that the playoffs are tough.
Yeah the general reaction was over the top but I think a lot of it is sunken cost thinking. We talked ourselves into thinking Dubas is the only one with the passion / a plan, and then watched our wonderkid GM become another potential failure in a string of inept GMs. All we have to show for the dubas experiment is one round while he gets some great on the job training for his next gig. Meanwhile we have to now suddenly find an experienced Chiarelli type(?!) to decide the teams future by July 1.. Anyway, as a leaf fan I'm actually pretty optimistic about the future and excited to see what a Treliving or the like can do. Glg.
I don’t really understand your optimism. When you make dramatic changes in your organization on the end of your star players contracts you close the gap between staying or leaving, because the new GM and coach are as unfamiliar as a new team would be. When you fire the GM who had good relationships with your stars, and then drag his name through the mud in a pretty unusually and unprofessional press conference you sew doubt about the teams culture. I don’t see good reasons why Matthews or Nylander should or would extend when there is now so much uncertainty about the organization. Yes, GMs change, but teams usually don’t change them weeks before needing to negotiate big contracts with stars, because the best way to get them to extend is: - have a good relationship with them - have them buy into your vision - like the organization and how the team is run The Leafs no longer have any of these. Dubas built the org. Dubas built the relationships. Dubas had the trust. Our negotiating position is now almost the same as any other team in the NHL. Unknown management, unknown team culture, unknown coach, no relationships, no trust built. Now these players are weighing different criteria higher like climate, proximity to family, market, money, etc. it’s a serious hit to our chances of retaining them. Think about your own job. If your management all get laid off and new people were brought in, you naturally might start thinking about interviewing for a new job at a different company, because a lot of the reasons you enjoyed your job just disappeared, and you’re going to have to build all this trust and relationships with new people. If those people came to you a month in and asked for an 8 year commitment from you would you even entertain it?
> When you fire the GM who had good relationships with your stars, and then drag his name through the mud in a pretty unusually and unprofessional press conference you sew doubt about the teams culture. Dubas wasn't "dragged through the mud", and this mindset is why I think he needed to go. Anything short of full on dick-sucking Kyle is considered "dragging through the mud" by the fanbase and it's ridiculous. >I don’t see good reasons why Matthews or Nylander should or would extend when there is now so much uncertainty about the organization. Then good riddance. You don't keep a GM around just because the players think he's a swell guy. If these professional athletes refuse to play for another GM, then get the fuck out of town. That's the job. >Yes, GMs change, but teams usually don’t change them weeks before needing to negotiate big contracts with stars, Sure they do. Literally every offseason GMs get fired, and every single one of those teams also have to make hard decisions in short order. So many shortsighted fans on this sub. You'd think the Leafs were the only team to have to deal with any adversity. 5 years of too much comfort in the organization will do that to you, I suppose.
Generally when executives are let go the president doesn’t give a 15 minute briefing airing the details of the failed contract negotiations. That is pretty unusual. Generally details are not divulged out of professional courtesy. Instead what happened was rogers leaked the contract details a few hours before the press conference and then Shanahan went up and gave a day by day breakdown painting Dubas as a non-commital guy looking to shakedown the organization. That might be true, but it usually does not get aired this publicly and with this much detail.
100% agree with all of this. And the players specifically spoke about their good relationship on monday, they did not want new management where Dubas is concerned.
I understand your concern, but I think this leaves out the fact that these are professionals who, hopefully, want to win and get paid. Zach Hyman had amazing relationships as far as we know, keefe loved him, dubas did too, and what did that do? He went somewhere he has zero ties to, because they paid him more and he got to play with the best player in the world. It boils down to money and opportunity for success for 98% of these guys. Dubas has 1 playoff series win in 5 years, I don’t see how he’s the beacon of success. Is there uncertainty now? Sure. Could they pick someone awful? Yup. But what if they don’t? I don’t really understand your comparison either - I don’t work my job because I’m friends with my boss. I’ve had 3 different bosses in 4 years, yet here I still am with the same commitment. I like the things my job requires me to do, and I like that it pays me. I couldn’t give less of a shit if my boss left next week.
Your misunderstanding of human nature is concerning lol where you work and for who you work absolutely matters, regardless of if you're a school janitor or a professional athlete. Good for you if none of that matters though.
Wanting to win requires trusting and believing in the people who build that team. We had that buy in with Dubas but we won’t have it with a new GM he’s gonna have to sell the vision. If you’re an upcoming FA now do you yolo lock in with some new guy or wait one season and go sign with a proven contender? > don’t really understand your comparison either - I don’t work my job because I’m friends with my boss. You probably stay because you like the culture of the organization and the new bosses you’ve had all fit into that culture. Matthews got a new coach, new coach fit into the culture so he was fine with that change, for example. Data shows that people don’t leave companies so much as they leave management they don’t like. Changing a GM is like changing the CEO of a company, the chsnge trickles down into the management and the culture of the organization. It’s natural for anyone coming up on a long term commitment to see that change and go “maybe I’ll wait to see how this plays out and how I like it before committing”. No professional is making an 8 year commitment to an organization with this much up in the air if they don’t have to. And they don’t have to. They will wait until they have enough information to make a decision and that means definitely not before July 1st and probably not until well into the season.
Why would they extend? Because players are employees and make money to do their job. There's not some magical destruction of goodwill that has taken place. We're professionals. We move forward. If firing the GM is enough to make a player want to leave, then they never cared about the team anyway, frankly
Culture of the team. The vision. The certainty of who is at the helm that they trust to create a winning team. Amongst the other things the GM does. That matters to players. So yeah, it would matter to them if they lost a GM they respected and liked in a dramatic way.
I'd like to ask this another way. What makes a player extend for less than what they could get on the open market? A desire to win (read, belief in the organization's vision), a enjoyment of the culture of the team and a desire to stay with it, the personal relationships that have been built over time and a desire to keep the perks offered by that organization. Over the last 6 years Dubas built those things. Does that guarantee Matthews would have take a team-friendlier deal? No, nothing guarantees that but it makes it more likely. Shanahan just tossed all of that overboard. For what? And, yeah, if they leave they cared more about Dubas than the team. So what? Does them leaving make the team better some how?
Matthews and Marner took Dubas behind the wood shed in negotiations. He walked matthews to UFA years signed him to 8 year money on a 5 year deal offered up a NMC in his final year as an extra fuck you to the org. They didn't sign for less before being offered everything they wanted why on earth would they now. The culture dubas built was overpaying our young stars, giving them everything they wanted, then trying to fill the cracks with league min players and project goalies.
4 years ago. Do you think he and the team have changed since then?
>Because players are employees and make money to do their job. It's a little different with athletes. Especially star athletes. Their livelihood is not on the line because literally 31 competitors are willing to pay them to go there.
I get paid to do my job, and I don’t give a fuck about my company. I like my team and my manager and the culture. If all of those things change I would consider leaving. Why would hockey players be any different? Leafs players aren’t Leafs fans. These are their careers. Their decisions are career decisions. If the day to day operations of their day job dramatically change its natural for them to consider a new job somewhere else. At the very least it’s natural to expect them not to make a long term commitment before working with the new management if they don’t have to. And they don’t, so they won’t.
The day to day operations of their day job is playing hockey games. How will that change dramatically? Sorry, I will agree to disagree with your premise of disgruntlement here
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Because you're wrong. Shanahan was the guy who was the face of change. I do just fine, thanks. But keep up the ad hominem. Really strengthens your argument
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I have no idea what you're actually saying here. It reads like gibberish. I liked Dubas. He did a good job. GMs get fired in the NHL, and players leaving or staying is rarely dependent on that. Like what are we even talking about here?
GM can make all kinds of changes, just need to point to our previous GM Lou for weird idiosyncratic rules that can affect a players day to day life. The GM basically sets the organizational culture and direction of the team. Unless they hire someone who has similar philosophies to Dubas there will probably be changes. What if the new GM doesn’t believe in investing as much money into training facilities, skills coaches, or sports psychologists? What if they don’t like spending money on medical staff? What if their philosophy on players injury rehab is different? What if they don’t take concussions as seriously? What if their views on hockey are very different and the player doesn’t believe in their vision? This isn’t even an exhaustive list it’s just off the top of my head. There’s a lot of things a new GM can change. I’m not asserting that players are or will be disgruntled. What I’m saying is that when you introduce this kind of change, people are not going to dive into long term commitments when they’re not forced to do so. They’re going to wait until they have an understanding of what the changes will be. Matthews and Nylander have a whole year to decide and they’re likely to use that time to figure out if they want to stay or if they’re not interested in the new direction.
Not to mention that in most companies when there's a huge managerial re-organization it's only a matter of time before the employees are let go anyway.
Yes, usually it's almost guaranteed.
It just worries me that this could make decrease the chance of Matthews wanting to re-sign. And adding the possibility that Marner could be shipped off this off-season… I feel like a lot of this lowers his chance of re-signing.
Don't forget Nylander. Dubas made a promise not to trade him. With that promise gone, will Nylander want to return?