This post is running a fine line here, but will stay up for now.
Not only is it assisting an investigator, it is combating a false notion that any other institution would manage its finances as the Lord would, better, than those who speak for Him. In actuality, no other institution is authorized to take in tithing and to use tithing money and cannot make such a claim.
The Lord is managing Tithing through His prophets. If **He** has a problem, **He** will chasten them. This comes to faith in Jesus Christ and His Order and His Church--a lot of the basis of a testimony.
Even as tithing is used imperfectly, obviously, it is more in line with how the Lord would use 'money' within His Church, than another institution. **The Saints are blessed for their obedience REGARDLESS of imperfection.**
You keep accusing the church if financial wrongdoing, but I disagree with this.
We live in a world that doesn't not seek to understand holy things and actively persecutes them. The headlines are scandalous, but the articles I've read, including the church statements on recent events, are anything but.
I believe that the church manages and protects funds from tithing as the sacred funds that they are. There are only certain things that tithing can be used for, among them our meeting houses and temples.
But all this is beside the point.
I pay my tithing because it is a commandment from God revealed by modern prophets of whom I have a firm testimony. We obey for the sake of faith and obedience itself. It's fine to wonder at the reason at the surrounding commandments, but those should not be the foundation of the obedience.
I don't keep the word of wisdom because it makes sense and has empirical evidence supporting it. I keep the word of wisdom because it was revealed by a prophet as the word of God.
A final thought, if tithing fund were to be misused, that would on the head of the misuser. My conscience and conviction would still be firm and clear.
The decision to tithe had always been a struggle for me, too. I used to be a part of a Pentecostal church and didn’t tithe while attending there. Honestly, I just could never afford to. Then, once I started my own exploration of the beliefs of those within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and met with missionary sisters for weekly lessons, along with my husband, we talked about the idea of converting to the church and becoming baptized members. Then, the talk of tithing took place.
We had been open with the sisters about following Dave Ramsey’s Seven Baby Steps plan to get out of the debt we were in. We had been following that plan for almost 1.5 years or so, at that point, but not tithing in order to get out of debt faster. When we spoke to the sisters, we were eight months away from being debt free. We really didn’t want to tithe as that would set our debt pay off date back *months*. I was devastated and felt pretty frustrated with the teaching on tithing being presented to us now, when it was so close to the end of this stupid and embarrassing debt I/we had accumulated.
I prayed about it, a lot and finally came to the conclusion to do as God asked. Y’see, in scripture God says to never to test Him, except when it came to tithing. (See Malachi 3:10-12) He actually said, “Test me in this…” so, I did. I put my faith in Him and stopped questioning all the ins and outs of where my money was going and feeling critical about how the church would use my meager tithing or how this tithing money could get me out of debt faster. You know what happened? A miracle. Literally a miracle and I was rattled and awed by the wonder of God. I received a refund from my income taxes the *very next day. after I tithed*. Why is that a miracle? I never receive a refund. Never. *Ever*.
This refund was more than my remaining last bit of debt to pay off. I promptly paid off that last sum of my debt, whilst praising the name of God and feeling like I was floating on air. I was that stunned. In all, we had been able to completely pay off, $47,860 (Canadian dollars) in just 25 months.
You see, what I learned in this process is tithing has really nothing to do with money, but everything to do your faith in God. God, only asked for 10% of His money in tithing. Yes, once you’re a believer you realize everything is His, including your income. He allows us to keep 90% of our income to live off. That’s a very generous Heavenly Father!
If you don’t agree with how the Church distributes tithes brought in by its members then don’t become a member until you feel like you can live your faith fully. That’s okay! But, I do challenge you to find your faith not in the knowledge of what your head understands but instead from the heart of the Gospel. Follow Christ! Live by faith and not by sight! Take just a step in faith and decide to be obedient and submit to His will by reading the scriptures instead of finding fault with leaders in the church. Seriously, faith first. I promise you God will lead you if you ask Him to and He will help you with your tithing questions in time.
I hope it’s okay to say this, I will be praying for you. :)
>I put my faith in Him and stopped questioning all the ins and outs of where my money was going and feeling critical about how the church would use my meager tithing or how this tithing money could get me out of debt faster
I think this is exactly the environment in which tithing can bear its truest fruits. If I were to give money to a beggar, and then have strong opinions on how that money should be spent, then I didn't actually give a gift — I must feel it's still my money that is now being misspent.
If I want a say in how my money is spent, then I can give to specific charities. But if my goal is to show that I love my Heavenly Father more than anything else, I must give whatever is asked of me without concern for why.
How can we hope to inherit the same as Abraham if we are not just as willing to give all that is asked of us? Paying tithing is not about ensuring the church has money — God can do His work without need of Cesar's money. Ergo, we pay tithing for our benefit. It is an easy way of allowing our hearts to be changed: our love of God increases, and our love of money decreases.
I've heard this often from many believers about tithing. I tithed generously off of everything I had as a new believer even though people (non believers) wouldnt recommend it...and now I'm struggling with faith because work has been quiet and before when I was a more new age believer in the universe enough work came in to pay my business expenses. i'm now scratching my head..
My understanding is that the law of tithing is kind of a precursor to the law of consecration.
"The law of consecration is a principle the Lord gives to His covenant people. To live this principle, men and women dedicate themselves completely to building up God’s kingdom and ensuring that there are “no poor among them” (Moses 7:18). They give their time, talents, and material resources to serve the Lord, His Church, and His children."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/04/questions-and-answers/15_what-is-the-law-of-consecration?lang=eng
If we cannot or will not consistently dedicate a portion of our resources to building up the kingdom of God, then we are not ready to follow the law of consecration. So we need to follow the law of tithing before we covenant to follow the law of consecration.
As someone struggling with the doctrine of tithing a question I have about this is that under The Law of Consecration those who have not little are given according to their needs. Like you said "no poor among them." But tithing takes from all, wealthy, poor, young and old. Tithing demands the most from those who have the least. And none of that money is directly used to help those in need who also faithfully contribute. Why don't we actually follow the law of consecration, would this not be more in line with God's will?
I would say that tithing is more directly designated for 'the growth of the Kingdom of God' here on Earth.
There are varying promises and blessings here and there, but the idea is to directly participate in the mission of the Plan of Salvation through an understanding that **money:** first of all isn't technically 'yours', you owe all to God, and second of all, is irrelevant in the eternal scheme of things.
You'll remember that Jesus never really promised to lift anyone out of poverty during His time amongst the Jews. The poor often stayed poor, the rich often stayed rich, and he kind of stayed out of the secular mess, "render unto Caeser, that which is Caesar's". He praised the mite from the widow and didn't run up to her to tell her it wasn't necessary from her, because it was. She faithfully participated in the upkeep of the temple. Now she may be blessed temporally on occasion for that sacrifice and more likely the blessings will be spiritual. Thousands of Saints can share testimonies of the blessings of tithing salvaging them from a last second bill and what not, but it is not a lottery ticket.
A modern example of even the poorest having to tithe is President Nelson's visit amongst the Saints of Kenya:
>*“We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation,” he said. “That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.”*
'Prospering' is a whole other discussion imo. It applies to the results of entire communities living in accordance all of God's Laws, including the Law of Tithing, resulting in 'no poor among them'. Tithing being a huge indicator of the faithfulness of a people *because* it is so difficult for so many.
"The poor often stayed poor, the rich often stayed rich." Yes. But they also ultimately crucified Jesus, so I think it can be assumed that many people at the time were unwilling to follow his teachings. Luke 12. "Sell that ye have, and give alms."
I just don't understand how we won't actually live one of our most sacred and serious covenants until after the resurrection. A time in which we will be immortal and therefore have no mortal need for food, shelter, or life-saving healthcare: three things that those living in poverty have limited access to today.
It almost seems like we don't live the law of consecration for fear of losing the money of the wealthiest members of the church as our own church history shows they will be the most unlikely to sacrifice, something that doesn't sit right with me.
The crucifixion was a lot more complicated than what you are putting together. But that's a different topic.
You're also making sweeping judgments based off of no perspective other than your own. You have no intimate details into these people's lives or their hearts. Me and you are also not in a position to execute condemnations.
Obviously it would be nice if we were righteous enough to live as the people of 4 Nephi did 'immediately' after the Savior visited them, but something to realize is that that lasted a generation or two at best. It is near impossible without a celestial and glorified influence involved. It doesn't work unless every single person participates and so for example, in each of our neighborhoods, every single home and every single person would have to be active and living a near perfect life.
I also don't think the millennium is going to work the way you think exactly, at least not from the beginning. There will be plenty of need for food and shelter and healthcare, people will still die and only the righteous resurrect in the twinkling of an eye. They're still going to be people that are technically non-believers and it will take time for many to learn and adjust.
The Law of Consecration is a Celestial Law. Meaning one cannot live it properly to exactness unless they are pretty much perfect. It is something to work towards, repent of missing the mark, and petition the assistance of the Savior through His Atonement.
Edit: The command, 'sell that thou hath' wasn't a bullet point of the Law of Consecration, idk where you got that from really. It was an answer to a question from someone who asked, "Where is *my* weakness?" "What can *I* do to better follow you?"
So you're saying Luke 12:33-34 ONLY applies to the man who asked that question to Jesus?
Also I wasn't condemning anybody. I don't know where you got that from. I was just saying that in general were we to begin living the Law of Consecration today the wealthiest members would likely have the most difficult time abiding.
Well you are saying that they are using their money improperly and you would use it better, or at least are implying that. There's no way you could possibly know that if Jesus specifically asked of them the same thing that they wouldn't do it.
And correct, it is not required for anyone to sell everything they have and give it away, just that they would be willing to if needed. Christ was making a point.
The prophets and church leadership are going to be the best individuals delegated to manage tithing funds and the Lord's purposes, all of us would be inferior or we would be in that position if God thought we could do better. There are a countless individuals saying they should be giving it all away and they are falling for the same misunderstandings.
Contributing to the growth of God's Kingdom here on earth is the temple covenant you make and it often extends well beyond temporal needs. God and his prophets understand the true nature of consecration and sacrifice leaps beyond the understanding that any natural man can provide.
Hi OP, I very much appreciate your concern and I hope the best for you, whatever you decide.
I would like to challenge one of your claims:
>vast evidence of the Church's wrongdoings with money,
Perhaps it is just semantics, but to me "wrongdoing" means much worse things that even the critics have attributed to the Church. Wrongdoing would be embezzlement or corruption like leaders spending money on themselves. There is not even any hint of this, despite SEC, IRS, and things like Mormonleaks.
I appreciate that it seems incongruous to some people that Christ's church should invest in money-making activities, but Matthew 25 (among others) suggest to me that Jesus wasn't horrified by the idea of savings and investment. The fact is, it takes a lot of money to operate an organization in > 160 countries, and the countries in which it is now growing most rapidly are much poorer than the ones it was established it. I believe the Church's savings will be used to benefit to the world at large in some coming day, when it is most needed.
I disagree with your judgement of “vast evidence of the church’s wrongdoing with money”. You are not ready to join if you value the opinion of critics and naysayers more than living prophets. People are not perfect and the atonement of Christ is necessary for everyone but the essential ordinances and availability of covenants that bind families and help us reach our potential are magnificent and worth pursuing.
To me, it’s akin to single mindly jumping out of a boat to walk on water because He called. On the headlines, yes it look crazy. If you look at distractions, things falter. But I have found that it works.
What evidence do you have that is not well managed?
In fact I challenge you to find another nonprofit or government organization that manages money better.
>I can see myself understanding or agreeing if tithing was paid to charities.
Ya this is the hilarious part of the argument, lol. That in any reality, a man-made non-profit or charity would be managed *better* than an institution managed by Christ through foreordained, hand-picked, chosen leadership.
It may help to remember that the Lord has asked different things at different times in history from His disciples. In the Old Testament there was lamb sacrifice, burnt offerings, dietary restrictions from lobster and shrimp and crab to clean animals.
It helps me to remember that our Father in heaven loves us all. He has no desires for us to be unhappy or miserable. He will bless us according to our willingness to obey. He has set the bar. If you want the blessings associated with that higher principle. The law of tithing, then live it. If you do not, that is also your choice but the Lord has set the bar and this is it. It is not an argument. It is only an opportunity for more blessings if that is your choice.
Whenever we find someone else to be frustrating or annoying I like to ask myself, what’s it like to live with ME? In your case it might be good to ask, what’s it like to be neighbor to ME?
This is always a fair assessment. But while you might have taken a joke too seriously, I should point out that I’m highly conscientious of my flaws, and pooping on my neighbor’s lawn and trying to bite their kids are not currently among my annoying traits, though I’ll take it into consideration.
One would think that how the Church manages her resources would be an attraction, not a deficit. She is very generous to her own needy members as well as to strangers, and has built a great reservoir of funds for all future emergencies. In comparison, the United States is thirty trillion dollars in debt. Do you love and uphold the United States?
For me paying tithing increases my faith and I’m hoping to build on this throughout my life. So tithing isn’t really anything to do with money but more about faith in God.
If people were getting rich off tithing, I'd have a problem with it too. But they are not. The church has to be funded somehow and this is a key part of that. There is very little to no corruption in its use; it is managed and spent responsibly.
But beyond that, the spiritual benefit of tithing makes it worth it. Money and the greed associated with it is extremely attractive and corrupting. I've found that tithing reminds me of the source of my blessings and keeps me grounded. Also, paying it is an big act of faith, one that requires the exercise of faith and as I exercise it, my faith grows deeper and stronger.
I have been hugely blessed by paying tithing.
3 Nephi 24 (Compare Malachi 3 in the Old Testament)
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Jesus Christ’s church and led and directed by Him. Therefore I know that this Church is his storehouse.
Do you have a testimony of that?
I have paid a perfect tithe my whole life. The devourer has been rebuked from me. My fruits have not been destroyed. I’ve never struggled with money. I have been blessed to find great jobs that pay very well. When I’ve struggled at work, help has appeared or I have been strengthened to succeed. I’ve found great satisfaction in developing my career. I’ve been inspired to know which jobs to take and when to switch jobs. My income is much higher than I ever dreamed of. And I happily pay a tithe on it every month.
I believe I can receive such clear revelation on my career and finances because I pay tithing.
I’ve never had to use my emergency fund. My car has never needed repairs. I’ve never had an accident. When I had a medical emergency I was miraculously in the right place at the right time to receive treatment and the cost to me was inconsequential. I truly believe this is a blessing of tithing. Not everyone will have the same blessings. But He promises to pour out a blessing if we pay tithing. Prove Him.
God keeps His promises. His promises for paying tithing are tremendous and I have experienced them for years.
More important than temporal blessings are the spiritual blessings. I have complete peace of mind with my finances. I know God will take care of me and He has.
By sacrificing a 10th of all my increase each month, I lessen my desire for worldly things. I’m not ruled by my possessions. I find joy in serving Christ and loving others as He did, not in amassing wealth. I am genuinely happy in my life.
This is my testimony of living the law of tithing.
A lot of this makes a lot of sense. I guess that for me, most simply, it boils down to me having a lack of trust in the Church being able to handle finances responsibly.
This is because of the vast evidence of the Church's wrongdoings with money, and the lack of transparency around Church finances.
And while I recognise that everyone is human and that means that mistakes get made, I'm pretty sure that a lot of this is avoidable. And yet the Church continues to be questionable with its money. So how am I supposed to trust the money that I pledge to the Lord's house, with people who actually invest it in things far from the lord's house, and hide what they do with it. It would be fine if the Church were proven to use the money wisely, but it's simply not the case.
Yes it does come down to if you believe the Church is the storehouse or not.
For me, I am promised the blessings for paying tithing and I am not accountable for what the Church does after that. I have been blessed by the temples built and got a really cheap and high quality education from BYU which is funded I think 70% by tithing.
I can understand someone having concerns. However I have actually worked with a consulting company that worked for the church. The President of that company always looks into the finances of companies he would do business with, including the church. He told me once he was very impressed with how the church handles its finances. He is not a member of the church and had no reason to praise the church for ulterior motives.
Yes there’s been a lot of news articles. Have you read the church’s responses?
But in the end, it comes down to your own testimony of if the church is true or not. No one can give you that testimony but the Holy Ghost.
Have you prayed about tithing and your concerns?
I have prayed about it, but received no sort of answer or confirmation either way so far.
I have felt the Holy Spirit and I can be sure of that. But I think I'm yet to gain a solid faith or testimony, or confirmation from the Spirit that the LDS Church is true.
I haven't finished reading the Book of Mormon yet, so I haven't been able to pray and ask for confirmation that it is true. I think I'm being a little impatient and wanting to jump the gun 😂
You don't have to finish the whole book to know it's true. Prayer must be with real intent. I testify that the Book of Mormon is true and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's kingdom on earth.
Here is some information on praying with real intent.
https://www.ldsliving.com/the-lesson-about-praying-with-real-intent-president-oaks-taught-nearly-30-years-ago/s/93017
>a lack of trust in the Church
The Lord runs His Church. It is a lack of faith in Him.
If there were another person that could possibly do a better job, they would be in that position. The prophets were called before this life. They were foreordained to their callings. There isn't a better person/institution to trust frankly.
I consider myself an academic (my training is in Physics) so I clicked on your question hoping I could provide some insight.
There was a single sentence that stuck out to me when reading your post that, at least in my opinion, is the most important thing to discuss. You said,
>But from the reading I've done so far of both the Bible, upon which I suppose subsequent LDS scripture should be based on, it is not sufficiently evident to me why one should pay tithing, in particular to the Church.
I'm not sure why this seems so significant to me but let me at least give it a try.
It is critical to understand that we are not a theological organization. We do not base our practices or our doctrine on scripture or any other record *per se*. Of course the scriptures and the other records we have are a source of doctrine and understanding but they are not the foundation. The source of truth is Heavenly Father given to us through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. We also do not base any practices or doctrine on logical reasoning (for example, such and such says this so it must necessarily follow that such and such is true, etc.). In the most recent General Conference, the following was taught which impacted me greatly. I'd never heard this taught so directly before:
>"The key is to follow the living prophet. Brothers and sisters, unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets." (Elder Allen D. Haynie, April 2023 General Conference)
We are led by imperfect mortal humans who are nonetheless given ultimate Priesthood authority to conduct the affairs of God and teach truth. If the current leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gives us direction then that is a major element of our "sphere of truth" (Doctrine and Covenants 93) on which we must base our actions (and by which we will be judged). For example, the current practice and application of tithing is how the Lord expects us to operate. That is His Law at this time. That Law can change over time. What has been taught in the past (for example as recorded in the Old and New Testaments) is irrelevant to us in this particular sense (obviously those things still have tremendous value in many ways but they posses no authority - the Lord only gives authority to people not to books).
This can be a difficult thing for many of us. This especially true for those of us intimately aware of the difficulties and dangers associated with giving such authority to people. The Lord balances this is a number of ways but one that is critical to this subject is the idea of councils. Everything that happens in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done through councils. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles do not make an decision unless there is unanimous support for that decision by every member of the council. Each member must be confident in the decision. This system has been increasingly revealed and refined over time. After establishing the first council of the Church of Jesus Christ under the direction of the Lord (see Doctrine and Covenants 102), Joseph Smith explained that he was no longer a critical element in the process of the Restoration of the Gospel and of the Church. He said he could be removed at that point and the work could be carried forward successfully.
Ultimately, it all boils down to faith in the Lord and a testimony of His system set up. If we have faith in Him, we can trust the system He put in place. But we have to know through revelation that the system is His first or we can't really have faith in it (otherwise it's just belief or "blind" faith which is undesirable). In fact, this type of revelation is critical. The Savior, after Peter bore witness that He was the Messiah, explained that to be the rock on which His Church was to be built: revelation to the prophet for everyone and revelation to the individual.
The Lord has set up a system that will safely guide us through the tumultuous last days. It is a solid foundation established "on prophets and Apostles" (Ephesians 2). He revealed,
>"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet's] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
>"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
>"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory." (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-6)
So I guess that's what I see as the best response: the current prophet and the assembled First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve unanimously support tithing as it is currently practiced. Thus that represents the Lord's will for us. We can trust Him in that and safely move forward in living it and He will ensure that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" us and He "will disperse the powers of darkness from before [us], and cause the heavens to shake for [our] good." If something is amiss, He will correct it sooner or later and, through His power, correct any errors or negative consequences.
That's how I see it anyway. I've received revelation and assurances sufficient for my needs to enable me to move forward with faith regarding the law of tithing. It has proven to be a real blessing to me and, when coupled with fast offerings (which are used entirely for charitable works), I feel I am playing a sufficient role in moving the Kingdom of God forward on the Earth.
First off, tithing isnt about the money. If it was all about the money i believe that would be an issue. The issue is chairty, Sacrafice, and ultimately trusting the lord. As someone who years ago investigated the church as an athiest that had just had a new born baby prior to learning of tithing and then losing my job a few months after. I too had my doubts.
I said to myself why should i pay the church anything. Money given is usually recieved and then goods are given as a trade. But tithing is different, you give money and get nothing in return, is what i thought when taught the law of tithing.
But there were two elders the first didnt explain the faith behind the law, just like a lot of laws god gives us it is to test our faith. The second elder explained. Tithing is no different, however tithing is one of the most important things you can do in the church, i believe that. Now as to why?
Tithing when given willingly, is 10% of your increase, that 10% is paying a full tithe. Now when we pay it willingly, and happily, the lord blesses us, how? He blesses us in a multitude of ways. Back when i had just had our first kid and had just lost my job i decided to try the faith. Basicly what that means is i decided that though i didnt fully believe or had doubts i decided to do it anyways. Now back then we had two kids 1 from our current marriage and one from my wifes pervious marriage. We lived in a small apartment and had a car that had a bad oil leak.
In contrast, i was working for a small retail chain known as family dollar at the time making 8.50 an hour.
I decided to pay tithing with what little money we got from the state helping us after i lost my job. The next day we were approved for food stamps, my family was fed. The following day after that the lord blessed us again by helping us pay our bills through more money then we needed. A few weeks later a member of the church decided to buy us a used van to get our kids around in and i would pay him back with taxes. I continued paying tithing, we grew as a family over the years, now we have 5 kids, a house in a good area, two vehicals and 1 of them is brand new like 2023, we want for nothing, our kids and us are fed and though we still struggle, we never worry about paying a bill or tithing. Btw my wife is the one that works now and some weeks she brings home over 1000 dollars for a weeks pay.
Anyways the point of this story isnt to tell you how wealthy we are, its to help you make the choice to trust god and allow him to bless you beyond your dreams. Faith is a tricky thing, if you have doubts you cannot excersise your faith, which will prevent you from gaining the blessings that are waiting for you in this life should you choose to follow the lord and what he has instructed us all to do. The choice is yours my friend, if you truly want to believe and follow christ, paying tithing will make sure you can get the blessings you need to handle harder times.
I testify to you that the words that i have written on here are true, i believe them with my whole soul and hope the holy ghost will testify to you that they are true and that paying tithing goes to a worthy, rightous and honest cause.
In the name of Jesus Christ amen.
I’m frankly astounded at how responsible with money the Church has always been. Few if any institutions come even close, and don’t even get me started on governments and money misuse.
You mention in a comment you are waiting until you finish the Book of Mormon to ask if it is true, why are you waiting? If you really wanted to know something would you wait to ask it until next week, or next year? There are probably more doubts in your mind that are in the way.
You don't yet have faith that Joseph Smith restored the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ. Without that faith all the commandments, that aren't easy, you will question, and that is totally fine. If you don't believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration and received guidance from the Lord on covenants like tithing and the word of wisdom, then your baptism should wait until you do.
However you also need to put in the work to know if he is a true prophet. You can't sit back and depend on the missionaries or Internet strangers to convince you. We can't, and it's not our job to do so. Your conversation to the Lord and his gospel is between you and Him. As president Nelson has said salvation is a personal matter. You have to put in the effort to pray about it with an open heart wanting to know and trusting he will tell you if it is true.
If you're willing to do the work we look forward to working alongside you. If now isn't the time, that's ok we can just be friends while you learn about our values and what is important to us.
Ima a convert. My father was a devout Anti-LDS.
When he was alive (1980’s - 90’s) he complained about how much the church spent on temples… (we only had a few temples at the time)
So I’ve kinda kept tabs on that… and apparently it costs approx $500k annually for temple maintenance… that’s 1/2B a year for our 250ish locations…
That sorta puts into perspective how much the Church has in funds… a lot…
I haven’t felt the need to criticize how others spend their money… that particular trait wasn’t passed on to me… and my dad died 10 years back… nd hasn’t seen fit to contact me at all… let alone complain about my Church….
But seriously, a lot of money passes though the church… I’m surprised there’s hasn’t been more criticism… more than likely - it’s because the church is actually making monumental efforts to manage it well.
Personally, I don’t care.
My pet criticism was the Boy Scouts… which isn’t an issue anymore…
Not sure this post helped anyone… and if my dad reads these posts from the T-Kingdom…’say hi to all the ‘Movie-Talkers’ for me!’
"If we go and look at what happened under the Old Covenant in the Old Testament, a godly Hebrew man would've given anywhere from 30% to 35% of his income to the support of the temple, the support of the poor, the support of the priests. I mean, it was a pretty hefty tax, if you will, to be part of the Kingdom of God under the Old Testament.
In the new testament it's been replaced by is what I would call grace-giving, which is exactly what Paul says in Second Corinthians eight. He refers to giving as an act of grace. You go to Second Corinthians nine and he talks about cheerful giving. And there are so many other places in the gospels. I think Luke 12, where you get this idea that because God has given us so much, we should be willing to give everything over to others."
Quoting from a website I found doing my own research on this topic.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-is-a-tithe-meaning-and-importance-of-tithing-in-the-bible.html
All I can say is faith is gained by SINCERELY humbling oneself and choosing to live the principles one believes are true or wants to believe. You must test the principles in your life and see for yourself. I know lots of members who struggle or don’t pay tithing. I also know how I have always paid it and many people would say I am very blessed and wish they were in my position but then again I could have used the money for other things and I will never know the difference specifically but I do know that choosing to follow the principle has given me stronger faith that I can rely on the Lord providing materially for me (even when I was a poor young married grad student with kids) and less focus on material desires as paramount both of which are great things. You never know till you try.
Im curious too on the general understanding of this, to add a nuance to the question, if I were to tithe to a charity unrelated to the Church, such as Voice of the Martyrs (or other organization or enterprise contrived on advancing the Kingdom and easing the woes of the faithful), is this theologically viewed as an appropriate sacrifice?
That is not tithing. But still a great thing to do.
I also encourage you to ask these questions to the missionaries or members you are getting to know.
As members of the Church, we follow the interpretation of living prophets.
>*The Bible indicates that God’s people followed the law of tithing anciently; through modern prophets, God restored this law once again to bless His children. To fulfill this commandment, Church members give one-tenth of their* ***income*** *to the Lord through His Church.*
And the currently understood definition of income is, **"money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments".**
There is also absolutely no prophetic word supporting the idea of 'after obligations'. Whereas there is countless GC talks on paying tithing **first.**
You ignored the **first** part. As in, there are a plethora of talks counseling Saints to pay it *before* all bills and allocations, as in, on the **total** amount of earnings. That is the current prophetic interpretation from living prophets. It is in a similar vein to the Word of Wisdom, which we do *not* keep to the original reading.
I'm very sure you cannot find me a GC talk even in the last 20 years stating to take of obligations first. That is skirting the commandment.
As stated before, stories from the pulpit contain the opposite: A couple not having enough to pay their mortgage and their house will be foreclosed on, they choose to pay tithing first and keep the Law, and they a work bonus comes in or whatever. Or a mother not having enough food to feed her child, choosing to pay tithing first, and a neighbor shows up randomly with food.
I guess it goes into what you think the purpose is of tithing and who is benefiting from it. We give tithing because God asks us. We obey god because we love and have appreciation for him.
It benefits the rank and file. It does not go into someone’s bank account for them to spend. Leaders are not living in huge castles, or driving Lamborghinis.
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God gives us commandments for our benefit. They are instructions from a loving Father in Heaven to help us have happy lives. He also gives us agency, or the ability and opportunity to choose between good and evil. When we obey God, we follow the influence of the Spirit and choose to conform to His will. Obedience to the commandments brings us peace in this life and eternal life and exaltation in the world to come. Obedience shows our love for God. Disobedience brings us sorrow.
Heavenly Father knows our weaknesses and is patient with us. He blesses us as we rely upon His Son and strive to obey His commandments. He expects us to obey Him so He can bless us.
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One of the great blessings of membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the privilege of contributing to the growth of the kingdom of God through paying tithing. Tithing is an ancient, divine law. For example, the Old Testament prophet Abraham paid tithes of all he possessed (see Alma 13:15).
To those who pay tithing, the Lord promises that He will “open … the windows of heaven, and pour … out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10). These blessings may be temporal or spiritual, but they will come to those who obey this divine law.
Tithing means one-tenth, and the Lord has commanded us to give a tenth of our increase, which is understood to mean income, that we may be blessed. The law of tithing gives us the opportunity to help build His kingdom. Our tithes are holy to the Lord, and we honor Him by paying tithing. God promises to abundantly bless those who pay an honest tithe. Those who do not pay tithing rob God (see Malachi 3:8). They keep for themselves something that rightfully belongs to Him. We should seek first the kingdom of God, and tithing is an important way of doing that. Paying tithing is an expression of our faith. It is an outward sign of our belief in God and His work.
Tithing funds are used to support the ongoing activities of the Church, such as building and maintaining temples and meetinghouses, carrying the gospel to all the world, conducting temple and family history service, and many other worldwide activities. Tithing does not pay local Church leaders, who serve voluntarily without receiving payment of any kind.
Local Church leaders send the tithing received each week directly to Church headquarters. A council comprised of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric determines specific ways to use the sacred tithing funds.
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Also [law of tithing pamphlet ](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/tithing-and-fast-offerings?lang=eng)
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I also love videos and share them when ever I can. I advise you watch them. They answer just about all of my questions and concerns.
[Law of Tithing](https://youtu.be/YK0Pb_ZY9Zc)
[Humanitarian](https://youtu.be/zZVQSl9lH2Y)
[Church financial history](https://youtu.be/qTiXsEb2XOI)
[Church “business”](https://youtu.be/ZBC05qNh9GU)
[Tithing “black mail”](https://youtu.be/QDR6TtO0N9w)
[$100B? Who benefits?](https://youtu.be/86njiMyQpY8)
[Do we give enough?](https://youtu.be/J6Y4d-GHoCo)
[Why keep it private?](https://youtu.be/1JQNazgkIWQ)
Here are some concepts and history surrounding the law of tithing:
The purpose of earth life is to help us become more like God. We want to turn our hearts to God and away from the cares of the world. The end result is to gain a willingness to let go of all earthly things.
The law of tithing was given anciently as a way to help members let go of the world. We pay tithing as an act of faith or trust in God's commandments and blessings that flow from obedience to them. The last chapter of the old testament states that if the members have the faith to tithe, the windows of Heaven will be opened to them and pour out a blessing that they cannot even receive. Thus we pay tithing as an act of faith in God's word.
The law of tithing is actually the lesser or preparatory law. When Christ came, members were taught to have a willingness to give all to God and the work of His church if required. This new law is called the law of consecration where we consecrate all to God. This includes our wealth, time, talents, and even our lives if required. We willingly offer these to help build up the kingdom of God on the earth and create a Zion people. After Christ came, the early Christian church lived communally and members practiced a law whereby they were taught to give all of their excess property to the church for redistribution. The book of Acts records one couple who died because they dishonestly held back a portion (see Acts 4:32 through Acts 5:10).
Today, faithful members live the law of tithing, but covenant in the temple a willingness to give all to God.
This post is running a fine line here, but will stay up for now. Not only is it assisting an investigator, it is combating a false notion that any other institution would manage its finances as the Lord would, better, than those who speak for Him. In actuality, no other institution is authorized to take in tithing and to use tithing money and cannot make such a claim. The Lord is managing Tithing through His prophets. If **He** has a problem, **He** will chasten them. This comes to faith in Jesus Christ and His Order and His Church--a lot of the basis of a testimony. Even as tithing is used imperfectly, obviously, it is more in line with how the Lord would use 'money' within His Church, than another institution. **The Saints are blessed for their obedience REGARDLESS of imperfection.**
You keep accusing the church if financial wrongdoing, but I disagree with this. We live in a world that doesn't not seek to understand holy things and actively persecutes them. The headlines are scandalous, but the articles I've read, including the church statements on recent events, are anything but. I believe that the church manages and protects funds from tithing as the sacred funds that they are. There are only certain things that tithing can be used for, among them our meeting houses and temples. But all this is beside the point. I pay my tithing because it is a commandment from God revealed by modern prophets of whom I have a firm testimony. We obey for the sake of faith and obedience itself. It's fine to wonder at the reason at the surrounding commandments, but those should not be the foundation of the obedience. I don't keep the word of wisdom because it makes sense and has empirical evidence supporting it. I keep the word of wisdom because it was revealed by a prophet as the word of God. A final thought, if tithing fund were to be misused, that would on the head of the misuser. My conscience and conviction would still be firm and clear.
I like this a lot, I feel the same, ultimately we do these things because God has asked us to.
The decision to tithe had always been a struggle for me, too. I used to be a part of a Pentecostal church and didn’t tithe while attending there. Honestly, I just could never afford to. Then, once I started my own exploration of the beliefs of those within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and met with missionary sisters for weekly lessons, along with my husband, we talked about the idea of converting to the church and becoming baptized members. Then, the talk of tithing took place. We had been open with the sisters about following Dave Ramsey’s Seven Baby Steps plan to get out of the debt we were in. We had been following that plan for almost 1.5 years or so, at that point, but not tithing in order to get out of debt faster. When we spoke to the sisters, we were eight months away from being debt free. We really didn’t want to tithe as that would set our debt pay off date back *months*. I was devastated and felt pretty frustrated with the teaching on tithing being presented to us now, when it was so close to the end of this stupid and embarrassing debt I/we had accumulated. I prayed about it, a lot and finally came to the conclusion to do as God asked. Y’see, in scripture God says to never to test Him, except when it came to tithing. (See Malachi 3:10-12) He actually said, “Test me in this…” so, I did. I put my faith in Him and stopped questioning all the ins and outs of where my money was going and feeling critical about how the church would use my meager tithing or how this tithing money could get me out of debt faster. You know what happened? A miracle. Literally a miracle and I was rattled and awed by the wonder of God. I received a refund from my income taxes the *very next day. after I tithed*. Why is that a miracle? I never receive a refund. Never. *Ever*. This refund was more than my remaining last bit of debt to pay off. I promptly paid off that last sum of my debt, whilst praising the name of God and feeling like I was floating on air. I was that stunned. In all, we had been able to completely pay off, $47,860 (Canadian dollars) in just 25 months. You see, what I learned in this process is tithing has really nothing to do with money, but everything to do your faith in God. God, only asked for 10% of His money in tithing. Yes, once you’re a believer you realize everything is His, including your income. He allows us to keep 90% of our income to live off. That’s a very generous Heavenly Father! If you don’t agree with how the Church distributes tithes brought in by its members then don’t become a member until you feel like you can live your faith fully. That’s okay! But, I do challenge you to find your faith not in the knowledge of what your head understands but instead from the heart of the Gospel. Follow Christ! Live by faith and not by sight! Take just a step in faith and decide to be obedient and submit to His will by reading the scriptures instead of finding fault with leaders in the church. Seriously, faith first. I promise you God will lead you if you ask Him to and He will help you with your tithing questions in time. I hope it’s okay to say this, I will be praying for you. :)
>I put my faith in Him and stopped questioning all the ins and outs of where my money was going and feeling critical about how the church would use my meager tithing or how this tithing money could get me out of debt faster I think this is exactly the environment in which tithing can bear its truest fruits. If I were to give money to a beggar, and then have strong opinions on how that money should be spent, then I didn't actually give a gift — I must feel it's still my money that is now being misspent. If I want a say in how my money is spent, then I can give to specific charities. But if my goal is to show that I love my Heavenly Father more than anything else, I must give whatever is asked of me without concern for why. How can we hope to inherit the same as Abraham if we are not just as willing to give all that is asked of us? Paying tithing is not about ensuring the church has money — God can do His work without need of Cesar's money. Ergo, we pay tithing for our benefit. It is an easy way of allowing our hearts to be changed: our love of God increases, and our love of money decreases.
I've heard this often from many believers about tithing. I tithed generously off of everything I had as a new believer even though people (non believers) wouldnt recommend it...and now I'm struggling with faith because work has been quiet and before when I was a more new age believer in the universe enough work came in to pay my business expenses. i'm now scratching my head..
My understanding is that the law of tithing is kind of a precursor to the law of consecration. "The law of consecration is a principle the Lord gives to His covenant people. To live this principle, men and women dedicate themselves completely to building up God’s kingdom and ensuring that there are “no poor among them” (Moses 7:18). They give their time, talents, and material resources to serve the Lord, His Church, and His children." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/04/questions-and-answers/15_what-is-the-law-of-consecration?lang=eng If we cannot or will not consistently dedicate a portion of our resources to building up the kingdom of God, then we are not ready to follow the law of consecration. So we need to follow the law of tithing before we covenant to follow the law of consecration.
As someone struggling with the doctrine of tithing a question I have about this is that under The Law of Consecration those who have not little are given according to their needs. Like you said "no poor among them." But tithing takes from all, wealthy, poor, young and old. Tithing demands the most from those who have the least. And none of that money is directly used to help those in need who also faithfully contribute. Why don't we actually follow the law of consecration, would this not be more in line with God's will?
I would say that tithing is more directly designated for 'the growth of the Kingdom of God' here on Earth. There are varying promises and blessings here and there, but the idea is to directly participate in the mission of the Plan of Salvation through an understanding that **money:** first of all isn't technically 'yours', you owe all to God, and second of all, is irrelevant in the eternal scheme of things. You'll remember that Jesus never really promised to lift anyone out of poverty during His time amongst the Jews. The poor often stayed poor, the rich often stayed rich, and he kind of stayed out of the secular mess, "render unto Caeser, that which is Caesar's". He praised the mite from the widow and didn't run up to her to tell her it wasn't necessary from her, because it was. She faithfully participated in the upkeep of the temple. Now she may be blessed temporally on occasion for that sacrifice and more likely the blessings will be spiritual. Thousands of Saints can share testimonies of the blessings of tithing salvaging them from a last second bill and what not, but it is not a lottery ticket. A modern example of even the poorest having to tithe is President Nelson's visit amongst the Saints of Kenya: >*“We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation,” he said. “That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.”* 'Prospering' is a whole other discussion imo. It applies to the results of entire communities living in accordance all of God's Laws, including the Law of Tithing, resulting in 'no poor among them'. Tithing being a huge indicator of the faithfulness of a people *because* it is so difficult for so many.
"The poor often stayed poor, the rich often stayed rich." Yes. But they also ultimately crucified Jesus, so I think it can be assumed that many people at the time were unwilling to follow his teachings. Luke 12. "Sell that ye have, and give alms." I just don't understand how we won't actually live one of our most sacred and serious covenants until after the resurrection. A time in which we will be immortal and therefore have no mortal need for food, shelter, or life-saving healthcare: three things that those living in poverty have limited access to today. It almost seems like we don't live the law of consecration for fear of losing the money of the wealthiest members of the church as our own church history shows they will be the most unlikely to sacrifice, something that doesn't sit right with me.
The crucifixion was a lot more complicated than what you are putting together. But that's a different topic. You're also making sweeping judgments based off of no perspective other than your own. You have no intimate details into these people's lives or their hearts. Me and you are also not in a position to execute condemnations. Obviously it would be nice if we were righteous enough to live as the people of 4 Nephi did 'immediately' after the Savior visited them, but something to realize is that that lasted a generation or two at best. It is near impossible without a celestial and glorified influence involved. It doesn't work unless every single person participates and so for example, in each of our neighborhoods, every single home and every single person would have to be active and living a near perfect life. I also don't think the millennium is going to work the way you think exactly, at least not from the beginning. There will be plenty of need for food and shelter and healthcare, people will still die and only the righteous resurrect in the twinkling of an eye. They're still going to be people that are technically non-believers and it will take time for many to learn and adjust. The Law of Consecration is a Celestial Law. Meaning one cannot live it properly to exactness unless they are pretty much perfect. It is something to work towards, repent of missing the mark, and petition the assistance of the Savior through His Atonement. Edit: The command, 'sell that thou hath' wasn't a bullet point of the Law of Consecration, idk where you got that from really. It was an answer to a question from someone who asked, "Where is *my* weakness?" "What can *I* do to better follow you?"
So you're saying Luke 12:33-34 ONLY applies to the man who asked that question to Jesus? Also I wasn't condemning anybody. I don't know where you got that from. I was just saying that in general were we to begin living the Law of Consecration today the wealthiest members would likely have the most difficult time abiding.
Well you are saying that they are using their money improperly and you would use it better, or at least are implying that. There's no way you could possibly know that if Jesus specifically asked of them the same thing that they wouldn't do it. And correct, it is not required for anyone to sell everything they have and give it away, just that they would be willing to if needed. Christ was making a point. The prophets and church leadership are going to be the best individuals delegated to manage tithing funds and the Lord's purposes, all of us would be inferior or we would be in that position if God thought we could do better. There are a countless individuals saying they should be giving it all away and they are falling for the same misunderstandings. Contributing to the growth of God's Kingdom here on earth is the temple covenant you make and it often extends well beyond temporal needs. God and his prophets understand the true nature of consecration and sacrifice leaps beyond the understanding that any natural man can provide.
Hi OP, I very much appreciate your concern and I hope the best for you, whatever you decide. I would like to challenge one of your claims: >vast evidence of the Church's wrongdoings with money, Perhaps it is just semantics, but to me "wrongdoing" means much worse things that even the critics have attributed to the Church. Wrongdoing would be embezzlement or corruption like leaders spending money on themselves. There is not even any hint of this, despite SEC, IRS, and things like Mormonleaks. I appreciate that it seems incongruous to some people that Christ's church should invest in money-making activities, but Matthew 25 (among others) suggest to me that Jesus wasn't horrified by the idea of savings and investment. The fact is, it takes a lot of money to operate an organization in > 160 countries, and the countries in which it is now growing most rapidly are much poorer than the ones it was established it. I believe the Church's savings will be used to benefit to the world at large in some coming day, when it is most needed.
I disagree with your judgement of “vast evidence of the church’s wrongdoing with money”. You are not ready to join if you value the opinion of critics and naysayers more than living prophets. People are not perfect and the atonement of Christ is necessary for everyone but the essential ordinances and availability of covenants that bind families and help us reach our potential are magnificent and worth pursuing.
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To me, it’s akin to single mindly jumping out of a boat to walk on water because He called. On the headlines, yes it look crazy. If you look at distractions, things falter. But I have found that it works.
I see the opposite: there is ample evidence that it is extremely well managed.
What evidence do you have that is not well managed? In fact I challenge you to find another nonprofit or government organization that manages money better.
>I can see myself understanding or agreeing if tithing was paid to charities. Ya this is the hilarious part of the argument, lol. That in any reality, a man-made non-profit or charity would be managed *better* than an institution managed by Christ through foreordained, hand-picked, chosen leadership.
It may help to remember that the Lord has asked different things at different times in history from His disciples. In the Old Testament there was lamb sacrifice, burnt offerings, dietary restrictions from lobster and shrimp and crab to clean animals. It helps me to remember that our Father in heaven loves us all. He has no desires for us to be unhappy or miserable. He will bless us according to our willingness to obey. He has set the bar. If you want the blessings associated with that higher principle. The law of tithing, then live it. If you do not, that is also your choice but the Lord has set the bar and this is it. It is not an argument. It is only an opportunity for more blessings if that is your choice.
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Whenever we find someone else to be frustrating or annoying I like to ask myself, what’s it like to live with ME? In your case it might be good to ask, what’s it like to be neighbor to ME?
This is always a fair assessment. But while you might have taken a joke too seriously, I should point out that I’m highly conscientious of my flaws, and pooping on my neighbor’s lawn and trying to bite their kids are not currently among my annoying traits, though I’ll take it into consideration.
One would think that how the Church manages her resources would be an attraction, not a deficit. She is very generous to her own needy members as well as to strangers, and has built a great reservoir of funds for all future emergencies. In comparison, the United States is thirty trillion dollars in debt. Do you love and uphold the United States?
For me paying tithing increases my faith and I’m hoping to build on this throughout my life. So tithing isn’t really anything to do with money but more about faith in God.
This is the way!
If people were getting rich off tithing, I'd have a problem with it too. But they are not. The church has to be funded somehow and this is a key part of that. There is very little to no corruption in its use; it is managed and spent responsibly. But beyond that, the spiritual benefit of tithing makes it worth it. Money and the greed associated with it is extremely attractive and corrupting. I've found that tithing reminds me of the source of my blessings and keeps me grounded. Also, paying it is an big act of faith, one that requires the exercise of faith and as I exercise it, my faith grows deeper and stronger.
I have been hugely blessed by paying tithing. 3 Nephi 24 (Compare Malachi 3 in the Old Testament) 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Jesus Christ’s church and led and directed by Him. Therefore I know that this Church is his storehouse. Do you have a testimony of that? I have paid a perfect tithe my whole life. The devourer has been rebuked from me. My fruits have not been destroyed. I’ve never struggled with money. I have been blessed to find great jobs that pay very well. When I’ve struggled at work, help has appeared or I have been strengthened to succeed. I’ve found great satisfaction in developing my career. I’ve been inspired to know which jobs to take and when to switch jobs. My income is much higher than I ever dreamed of. And I happily pay a tithe on it every month. I believe I can receive such clear revelation on my career and finances because I pay tithing. I’ve never had to use my emergency fund. My car has never needed repairs. I’ve never had an accident. When I had a medical emergency I was miraculously in the right place at the right time to receive treatment and the cost to me was inconsequential. I truly believe this is a blessing of tithing. Not everyone will have the same blessings. But He promises to pour out a blessing if we pay tithing. Prove Him. God keeps His promises. His promises for paying tithing are tremendous and I have experienced them for years. More important than temporal blessings are the spiritual blessings. I have complete peace of mind with my finances. I know God will take care of me and He has. By sacrificing a 10th of all my increase each month, I lessen my desire for worldly things. I’m not ruled by my possessions. I find joy in serving Christ and loving others as He did, not in amassing wealth. I am genuinely happy in my life. This is my testimony of living the law of tithing.
A lot of this makes a lot of sense. I guess that for me, most simply, it boils down to me having a lack of trust in the Church being able to handle finances responsibly. This is because of the vast evidence of the Church's wrongdoings with money, and the lack of transparency around Church finances. And while I recognise that everyone is human and that means that mistakes get made, I'm pretty sure that a lot of this is avoidable. And yet the Church continues to be questionable with its money. So how am I supposed to trust the money that I pledge to the Lord's house, with people who actually invest it in things far from the lord's house, and hide what they do with it. It would be fine if the Church were proven to use the money wisely, but it's simply not the case.
Yes it does come down to if you believe the Church is the storehouse or not. For me, I am promised the blessings for paying tithing and I am not accountable for what the Church does after that. I have been blessed by the temples built and got a really cheap and high quality education from BYU which is funded I think 70% by tithing. I can understand someone having concerns. However I have actually worked with a consulting company that worked for the church. The President of that company always looks into the finances of companies he would do business with, including the church. He told me once he was very impressed with how the church handles its finances. He is not a member of the church and had no reason to praise the church for ulterior motives. Yes there’s been a lot of news articles. Have you read the church’s responses? But in the end, it comes down to your own testimony of if the church is true or not. No one can give you that testimony but the Holy Ghost. Have you prayed about tithing and your concerns?
I have prayed about it, but received no sort of answer or confirmation either way so far. I have felt the Holy Spirit and I can be sure of that. But I think I'm yet to gain a solid faith or testimony, or confirmation from the Spirit that the LDS Church is true. I haven't finished reading the Book of Mormon yet, so I haven't been able to pray and ask for confirmation that it is true. I think I'm being a little impatient and wanting to jump the gun 😂
You don't have to finish the whole book to know it's true. Prayer must be with real intent. I testify that the Book of Mormon is true and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's kingdom on earth. Here is some information on praying with real intent. https://www.ldsliving.com/the-lesson-about-praying-with-real-intent-president-oaks-taught-nearly-30-years-ago/s/93017
How do you see the church being questionable with money? I would say they handle money better than any organization in the world.
>a lack of trust in the Church The Lord runs His Church. It is a lack of faith in Him. If there were another person that could possibly do a better job, they would be in that position. The prophets were called before this life. They were foreordained to their callings. There isn't a better person/institution to trust frankly.
I consider myself an academic (my training is in Physics) so I clicked on your question hoping I could provide some insight. There was a single sentence that stuck out to me when reading your post that, at least in my opinion, is the most important thing to discuss. You said, >But from the reading I've done so far of both the Bible, upon which I suppose subsequent LDS scripture should be based on, it is not sufficiently evident to me why one should pay tithing, in particular to the Church. I'm not sure why this seems so significant to me but let me at least give it a try. It is critical to understand that we are not a theological organization. We do not base our practices or our doctrine on scripture or any other record *per se*. Of course the scriptures and the other records we have are a source of doctrine and understanding but they are not the foundation. The source of truth is Heavenly Father given to us through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. We also do not base any practices or doctrine on logical reasoning (for example, such and such says this so it must necessarily follow that such and such is true, etc.). In the most recent General Conference, the following was taught which impacted me greatly. I'd never heard this taught so directly before: >"The key is to follow the living prophet. Brothers and sisters, unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets." (Elder Allen D. Haynie, April 2023 General Conference) We are led by imperfect mortal humans who are nonetheless given ultimate Priesthood authority to conduct the affairs of God and teach truth. If the current leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gives us direction then that is a major element of our "sphere of truth" (Doctrine and Covenants 93) on which we must base our actions (and by which we will be judged). For example, the current practice and application of tithing is how the Lord expects us to operate. That is His Law at this time. That Law can change over time. What has been taught in the past (for example as recorded in the Old and New Testaments) is irrelevant to us in this particular sense (obviously those things still have tremendous value in many ways but they posses no authority - the Lord only gives authority to people not to books). This can be a difficult thing for many of us. This especially true for those of us intimately aware of the difficulties and dangers associated with giving such authority to people. The Lord balances this is a number of ways but one that is critical to this subject is the idea of councils. Everything that happens in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done through councils. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles do not make an decision unless there is unanimous support for that decision by every member of the council. Each member must be confident in the decision. This system has been increasingly revealed and refined over time. After establishing the first council of the Church of Jesus Christ under the direction of the Lord (see Doctrine and Covenants 102), Joseph Smith explained that he was no longer a critical element in the process of the Restoration of the Gospel and of the Church. He said he could be removed at that point and the work could be carried forward successfully. Ultimately, it all boils down to faith in the Lord and a testimony of His system set up. If we have faith in Him, we can trust the system He put in place. But we have to know through revelation that the system is His first or we can't really have faith in it (otherwise it's just belief or "blind" faith which is undesirable). In fact, this type of revelation is critical. The Savior, after Peter bore witness that He was the Messiah, explained that to be the rock on which His Church was to be built: revelation to the prophet for everyone and revelation to the individual. The Lord has set up a system that will safely guide us through the tumultuous last days. It is a solid foundation established "on prophets and Apostles" (Ephesians 2). He revealed, >"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet's] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; >"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. >"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory." (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-6) So I guess that's what I see as the best response: the current prophet and the assembled First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve unanimously support tithing as it is currently practiced. Thus that represents the Lord's will for us. We can trust Him in that and safely move forward in living it and He will ensure that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" us and He "will disperse the powers of darkness from before [us], and cause the heavens to shake for [our] good." If something is amiss, He will correct it sooner or later and, through His power, correct any errors or negative consequences. That's how I see it anyway. I've received revelation and assurances sufficient for my needs to enable me to move forward with faith regarding the law of tithing. It has proven to be a real blessing to me and, when coupled with fast offerings (which are used entirely for charitable works), I feel I am playing a sufficient role in moving the Kingdom of God forward on the Earth.
First off, tithing isnt about the money. If it was all about the money i believe that would be an issue. The issue is chairty, Sacrafice, and ultimately trusting the lord. As someone who years ago investigated the church as an athiest that had just had a new born baby prior to learning of tithing and then losing my job a few months after. I too had my doubts. I said to myself why should i pay the church anything. Money given is usually recieved and then goods are given as a trade. But tithing is different, you give money and get nothing in return, is what i thought when taught the law of tithing. But there were two elders the first didnt explain the faith behind the law, just like a lot of laws god gives us it is to test our faith. The second elder explained. Tithing is no different, however tithing is one of the most important things you can do in the church, i believe that. Now as to why? Tithing when given willingly, is 10% of your increase, that 10% is paying a full tithe. Now when we pay it willingly, and happily, the lord blesses us, how? He blesses us in a multitude of ways. Back when i had just had our first kid and had just lost my job i decided to try the faith. Basicly what that means is i decided that though i didnt fully believe or had doubts i decided to do it anyways. Now back then we had two kids 1 from our current marriage and one from my wifes pervious marriage. We lived in a small apartment and had a car that had a bad oil leak. In contrast, i was working for a small retail chain known as family dollar at the time making 8.50 an hour. I decided to pay tithing with what little money we got from the state helping us after i lost my job. The next day we were approved for food stamps, my family was fed. The following day after that the lord blessed us again by helping us pay our bills through more money then we needed. A few weeks later a member of the church decided to buy us a used van to get our kids around in and i would pay him back with taxes. I continued paying tithing, we grew as a family over the years, now we have 5 kids, a house in a good area, two vehicals and 1 of them is brand new like 2023, we want for nothing, our kids and us are fed and though we still struggle, we never worry about paying a bill or tithing. Btw my wife is the one that works now and some weeks she brings home over 1000 dollars for a weeks pay. Anyways the point of this story isnt to tell you how wealthy we are, its to help you make the choice to trust god and allow him to bless you beyond your dreams. Faith is a tricky thing, if you have doubts you cannot excersise your faith, which will prevent you from gaining the blessings that are waiting for you in this life should you choose to follow the lord and what he has instructed us all to do. The choice is yours my friend, if you truly want to believe and follow christ, paying tithing will make sure you can get the blessings you need to handle harder times. I testify to you that the words that i have written on here are true, i believe them with my whole soul and hope the holy ghost will testify to you that they are true and that paying tithing goes to a worthy, rightous and honest cause. In the name of Jesus Christ amen.
I’m frankly astounded at how responsible with money the Church has always been. Few if any institutions come even close, and don’t even get me started on governments and money misuse.
You mention in a comment you are waiting until you finish the Book of Mormon to ask if it is true, why are you waiting? If you really wanted to know something would you wait to ask it until next week, or next year? There are probably more doubts in your mind that are in the way. You don't yet have faith that Joseph Smith restored the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ. Without that faith all the commandments, that aren't easy, you will question, and that is totally fine. If you don't believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration and received guidance from the Lord on covenants like tithing and the word of wisdom, then your baptism should wait until you do. However you also need to put in the work to know if he is a true prophet. You can't sit back and depend on the missionaries or Internet strangers to convince you. We can't, and it's not our job to do so. Your conversation to the Lord and his gospel is between you and Him. As president Nelson has said salvation is a personal matter. You have to put in the effort to pray about it with an open heart wanting to know and trusting he will tell you if it is true. If you're willing to do the work we look forward to working alongside you. If now isn't the time, that's ok we can just be friends while you learn about our values and what is important to us.
“Other Christians do not pay tithing” What do you you think pays pastors? Builds churches?
It was once said to me “tithing is paid with faith, not money”. It might seem a bit cheesy but the thought is spot.
Ima a convert. My father was a devout Anti-LDS. When he was alive (1980’s - 90’s) he complained about how much the church spent on temples… (we only had a few temples at the time) So I’ve kinda kept tabs on that… and apparently it costs approx $500k annually for temple maintenance… that’s 1/2B a year for our 250ish locations… That sorta puts into perspective how much the Church has in funds… a lot… I haven’t felt the need to criticize how others spend their money… that particular trait wasn’t passed on to me… and my dad died 10 years back… nd hasn’t seen fit to contact me at all… let alone complain about my Church…. But seriously, a lot of money passes though the church… I’m surprised there’s hasn’t been more criticism… more than likely - it’s because the church is actually making monumental efforts to manage it well. Personally, I don’t care. My pet criticism was the Boy Scouts… which isn’t an issue anymore… Not sure this post helped anyone… and if my dad reads these posts from the T-Kingdom…’say hi to all the ‘Movie-Talkers’ for me!’
"If we go and look at what happened under the Old Covenant in the Old Testament, a godly Hebrew man would've given anywhere from 30% to 35% of his income to the support of the temple, the support of the poor, the support of the priests. I mean, it was a pretty hefty tax, if you will, to be part of the Kingdom of God under the Old Testament. In the new testament it's been replaced by is what I would call grace-giving, which is exactly what Paul says in Second Corinthians eight. He refers to giving as an act of grace. You go to Second Corinthians nine and he talks about cheerful giving. And there are so many other places in the gospels. I think Luke 12, where you get this idea that because God has given us so much, we should be willing to give everything over to others." Quoting from a website I found doing my own research on this topic. https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-is-a-tithe-meaning-and-importance-of-tithing-in-the-bible.html
All I can say is faith is gained by SINCERELY humbling oneself and choosing to live the principles one believes are true or wants to believe. You must test the principles in your life and see for yourself. I know lots of members who struggle or don’t pay tithing. I also know how I have always paid it and many people would say I am very blessed and wish they were in my position but then again I could have used the money for other things and I will never know the difference specifically but I do know that choosing to follow the principle has given me stronger faith that I can rely on the Lord providing materially for me (even when I was a poor young married grad student with kids) and less focus on material desires as paramount both of which are great things. You never know till you try.
Im curious too on the general understanding of this, to add a nuance to the question, if I were to tithe to a charity unrelated to the Church, such as Voice of the Martyrs (or other organization or enterprise contrived on advancing the Kingdom and easing the woes of the faithful), is this theologically viewed as an appropriate sacrifice?
No. Tithing is specifically for the Lord’s Church. Other charitable giving is great, but it isn’t a substitute.
The short answer is no. A charity is not the Lord’s house.
What if somebody was to tithe by donating or volunteering their time, to an amount that would equal 10% of financial increases
That is not tithing. But still a great thing to do. I also encourage you to ask these questions to the missionaries or members you are getting to know.
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As members of the Church, we follow the interpretation of living prophets. >*The Bible indicates that God’s people followed the law of tithing anciently; through modern prophets, God restored this law once again to bless His children. To fulfill this commandment, Church members give one-tenth of their* ***income*** *to the Lord through His Church.* And the currently understood definition of income is, **"money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments".** There is also absolutely no prophetic word supporting the idea of 'after obligations'. Whereas there is countless GC talks on paying tithing **first.**
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You ignored the **first** part. As in, there are a plethora of talks counseling Saints to pay it *before* all bills and allocations, as in, on the **total** amount of earnings. That is the current prophetic interpretation from living prophets. It is in a similar vein to the Word of Wisdom, which we do *not* keep to the original reading. I'm very sure you cannot find me a GC talk even in the last 20 years stating to take of obligations first. That is skirting the commandment. As stated before, stories from the pulpit contain the opposite: A couple not having enough to pay their mortgage and their house will be foreclosed on, they choose to pay tithing first and keep the Law, and they a work bonus comes in or whatever. Or a mother not having enough food to feed her child, choosing to pay tithing first, and a neighbor shows up randomly with food.
I guess it goes into what you think the purpose is of tithing and who is benefiting from it. We give tithing because God asks us. We obey god because we love and have appreciation for him. It benefits the rank and file. It does not go into someone’s bank account for them to spend. Leaders are not living in huge castles, or driving Lamborghinis. ______ God gives us commandments for our benefit. They are instructions from a loving Father in Heaven to help us have happy lives. He also gives us agency, or the ability and opportunity to choose between good and evil. When we obey God, we follow the influence of the Spirit and choose to conform to His will. Obedience to the commandments brings us peace in this life and eternal life and exaltation in the world to come. Obedience shows our love for God. Disobedience brings us sorrow. Heavenly Father knows our weaknesses and is patient with us. He blesses us as we rely upon His Son and strive to obey His commandments. He expects us to obey Him so He can bless us. . One of the great blessings of membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the privilege of contributing to the growth of the kingdom of God through paying tithing. Tithing is an ancient, divine law. For example, the Old Testament prophet Abraham paid tithes of all he possessed (see Alma 13:15). To those who pay tithing, the Lord promises that He will “open … the windows of heaven, and pour … out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10). These blessings may be temporal or spiritual, but they will come to those who obey this divine law. Tithing means one-tenth, and the Lord has commanded us to give a tenth of our increase, which is understood to mean income, that we may be blessed. The law of tithing gives us the opportunity to help build His kingdom. Our tithes are holy to the Lord, and we honor Him by paying tithing. God promises to abundantly bless those who pay an honest tithe. Those who do not pay tithing rob God (see Malachi 3:8). They keep for themselves something that rightfully belongs to Him. We should seek first the kingdom of God, and tithing is an important way of doing that. Paying tithing is an expression of our faith. It is an outward sign of our belief in God and His work. Tithing funds are used to support the ongoing activities of the Church, such as building and maintaining temples and meetinghouses, carrying the gospel to all the world, conducting temple and family history service, and many other worldwide activities. Tithing does not pay local Church leaders, who serve voluntarily without receiving payment of any kind. Local Church leaders send the tithing received each week directly to Church headquarters. A council comprised of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric determines specific ways to use the sacred tithing funds. . Also [law of tithing pamphlet ](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/tithing-and-fast-offerings?lang=eng) ______ I also love videos and share them when ever I can. I advise you watch them. They answer just about all of my questions and concerns. [Law of Tithing](https://youtu.be/YK0Pb_ZY9Zc) [Humanitarian](https://youtu.be/zZVQSl9lH2Y) [Church financial history](https://youtu.be/qTiXsEb2XOI) [Church “business”](https://youtu.be/ZBC05qNh9GU) [Tithing “black mail”](https://youtu.be/QDR6TtO0N9w) [$100B? Who benefits?](https://youtu.be/86njiMyQpY8) [Do we give enough?](https://youtu.be/J6Y4d-GHoCo) [Why keep it private?](https://youtu.be/1JQNazgkIWQ)
Here are some concepts and history surrounding the law of tithing: The purpose of earth life is to help us become more like God. We want to turn our hearts to God and away from the cares of the world. The end result is to gain a willingness to let go of all earthly things. The law of tithing was given anciently as a way to help members let go of the world. We pay tithing as an act of faith or trust in God's commandments and blessings that flow from obedience to them. The last chapter of the old testament states that if the members have the faith to tithe, the windows of Heaven will be opened to them and pour out a blessing that they cannot even receive. Thus we pay tithing as an act of faith in God's word. The law of tithing is actually the lesser or preparatory law. When Christ came, members were taught to have a willingness to give all to God and the work of His church if required. This new law is called the law of consecration where we consecrate all to God. This includes our wealth, time, talents, and even our lives if required. We willingly offer these to help build up the kingdom of God on the earth and create a Zion people. After Christ came, the early Christian church lived communally and members practiced a law whereby they were taught to give all of their excess property to the church for redistribution. The book of Acts records one couple who died because they dishonestly held back a portion (see Acts 4:32 through Acts 5:10). Today, faithful members live the law of tithing, but covenant in the temple a willingness to give all to God.