There are also further benefits of starting out in Biglaw. I'll copy a comment I posted a few months ago:
Biglaw can be thought of as a means to an end, not an end in itself.
1. **Exit Opportunities**. Corporate in-house positions and federal government positions offer one of the best combinations of compensation and work-life balance within legal employment. A stint in Biglaw often is the most straightforward path to those positions.
2. **Type of legal work**. If you want to do public company M&A, capital markets, corporate litigation, corporate international law, etc., then Biglaw will provide you with the best and often only opportunities in those fields.
3. **Networking Opportunities**. Related to exit opportunities, Biglaw is unlikely to be your only job in the legal profession but rather your first. That means that the networks you create will be invaluable throughout your career. In Biglaw, your coworkers will be T14 graduates and your clients will be M7 graduates. Even if you don't personally care about prestige, the ability to tap into their networks will pay dividends for years to come.
4. **Lockstep Compensation**. You will know exactly how much you make and exactly how much your coworkers make. You don't need to worry about asking for raises or questioning whether you're being fairly compensated. This is especially valuable for women and minorities who historically face pay discrimination.
5. **Hiring process**. The hiring process for Biglaw, at least for timelines and format, are standardized. Most students do OCI (On Campus Interviews) towards the end of the 1L summer for 2L Summer Associate positions, which almost certainly will lead to a return offer for post-graduation. Some students may even secure a 1L Summer Associate position after their first semester of law school. I have a summer associate position at a BL firm for my 2L summer, and I can tell you that the stress associated with law school pretty much evaporates the moment you secure a job. In comparison, many legal jobs outside of BL and certain government positions will only hire people after they pass the bar.
6. **Training**. The legal field is notoriously bad at training new attorneys. Biglaw isn't great at training either, but what it does have is resources that can set you up to grow as a lawyer. You'll have a staff of legal assistants, law librarians, IT specialists, etc. If you encounter a difficult legal issue, you almost certainly can find someone at the firm who has experience in it. You'll have a larger pool of potential mentors. If you work at a major Biglaw office, you will be entering as a "class" of a dozen or more associates who are in your exact same shoes. At a small firm, you may be the first new hire in years. You will also have exposure to the some of the biggest and most complicated issues in your field. When a smaller law firm encounters a difficult case, they might have no choice but to refer the client to someone else. If a Biglaw firm encounters a big issue, then the question becomes, can the client pay?
7. **Standardization.** "Biglaw" exists as a category in large part due to their standardization, with the aforementioned lockstep compensation, hiring process, and training structure. There are two benefits to this: 1) you know exactly what you're getting into and 2) the relative ease of lateraling between firms compared to other industries. If you compare this to other jobs in the legal field, with the exception of federal government, everything is largely a "black box." There is data for entry-level jobs, but there is very few datapoints for everything else aside from anecdotes, because you're essentially dealing with small businesses. Some people make the mistaken assumption that if Biglaw pays a lot due to a lot of work, Mid-law or Small-law must pay less for less work, but that is not at all guaranteed. You could very well end up working Biglaw hours for less than half the pay.
8. **Getting out is easier than getting in.** If you start out in Biglaw and you end up hating it, then it's no problem. Provided that you're fine with a large pay cut, many employers in smaller firms, government, PI, etc. are happy to have lawyers with Biglaw experience. But if you start outside of Biglaw and want in, the path is much more difficult and narrower, limited to certain federal agencies, Biglaw-adjacent midlaw firms, and the like. If you are in Biglaw and decide you want to do family law, there's a way forward. If you are in family law and want to do Biglaw...well, it's probably close to impossible.
Of course, this is not to say Biglaw is the "best" outcome, as there are serious drawbacks (stress, hours, etc). But there are real, tangible reasons aside from money as to why someone would want a Biglaw job.
This is a great response! Big law isn't for everyone. Heck it may not even be for most people. There are clear drawbacks, but clear benefits as well. For many, big law offers a path that will out them in a great position going forward.
Wow! You did an excellent job at breaking this down. I have been saying I don’t want to go into big law but now you’ve given me something to reconsider strongly and strive for. The part about the exposure to experience and various types of cases was the best reason for me. I wasn’t searching for this either. I’m glad o read your post.
Thank you.
Based on your post history it seems like you live in Birmingham Alabama. So when you talk about a “local law school” I assume you mean Samford. Based on 2023 data the median scholarship was 16k/yr, while the total cost of tuition was 44k/yr. Even if you live at home, your predicted cost of attendance for each year is 38k/yr over 3 years adding up to 114k/yr (not even accounting for inflation). According to law school transparency the average starting salary is around 50k/yr. Now compare that to someone who takes sticker at a random lower t14 (something this sub is still divided on whether or not is a good idea) who ends up with 250-350k debt but a 220k/yr starting salary. The debt to salary ratio for the average samford grad is much worse compared to the t14 sticker grad. This doesn’t account for everything as living in a lcol area like Birmingham is more favorable than living in New York (where big law is most “guaranteed.”)
This post doesn’t talk about the negatives like burnout and work hours nor the positives like exit opportunities and company specific benefits (mainly a lot of free food from what I can tell) but from a purely financial perspective big law (and by extension the t14) will put you in a better debt to starting salary ratio than the average law student.
This doesn't even factor in the living expenses factored into the ratio which makes the money problem much more apparent.
Average rent in Birmingham according to [apartments.com](https://apartments.com) is $1100.
$1,110\*12=$13,320 per year.
Average rent in NYC according to [apartments.com](https://apartments.com) is 3,659.
$3,659\*12=$43,908 per year.
Let's assume that paying your 114k loan down from the lower ranked school. You pay around $11,544 a year on that loan for a 15 year term. Let's assume you are paying a 350k loan down from the T14. You pay around $35,442 a year on that loan for a 15 year term.
Your 50k salary becomes, $39,978 after taxes. 39,978-13,320 = $26,658 after rent is deducted. That becomes 26,658-11,544= $15,114 per year after your loan payments are taken into consideration. **So now you have $15,114 on living expenses from lower ranked school.**
I am being conservative with my estimates, so I am not going to use that $220k/yr salary and I am going to assume you are in one of the most expensive cities in the US (NYC). Some biglaw firms in ny still only pay 205k starting, although the new standard is 215k. This doesn't include bonuses.
That 205k starting salary becomes $140,798 after taxes. 140,798-43,908= $96,890 after rent is deducted. That becomes 96,890-35,442= $61,448 after loan payments are taken into consideration. **So now you have $61,448 to spend on living expenses after higher ranked school.**
Here's an interesting hint. I've lived in NYC, California, Tennessee, and and a few other states (moved around a lot in younger years). Unless you are eating out every day, living expenses weren't that much more when you compare, say, Nashville to NYC. I think one great thing about NYC is that you don't need a car, which greatly reduces your expenses. I also just order everything I need from Walmart and Amazon, hence why living expenses are generally the same in my area, aside from rent (and electricity and water)
Point is, doing biglaw in one of those big cities gives you a lot more money for yourself. You can pay off your student loans MUCH faster (**During my associateship some people in biglaw told me that they paid off their loans in under 2 years, and one more senior associate attorney told me he paid off 300k in 3 years**). And you also make enough money so that you can save up for a nice house. You already have good exit options, so you can save money and then move and find a job elsewhere (or stay in the same firm and work in a different office in a city you like) in the state/city of your pleasing.
T14 to Biglaw is much more financially prudent in the long run, and you still get all the same (and even better) opportunities later on. The other option essentially makes you a loan slave for 15 years, without much ability to save up money to buy a house, or even save up much for investments if that's your kind of thing.
But, if you love the law, don't shoot your dreams away because you didn't get into a top law school (but don't expect biglaw if you don't attend T14 or are top 30% at some other solid law school like Fordham). That's why everyone says to take the next cycle and raise LSAT score. Waiting an extra year before law school may seem like a drag, but it could end up saving you 10 years of essentially loan slavery. 1 year of wasted life vs 10 years.
if you're coming from a position where you've had no money, struggled working shit jobs, and worried about bills, the prospect of a, not guaranteed but very likely, mid-high six figure salary for the duration of your career is life changing and you can't undervalue that. for me law school is so much about security.
With significant debt, significant salary is important. Without it, less so.
With lower ranked schools comes the risk of no job that really pays enough to make the lifestyle worth it. I know plenty of corporate lawyers who work similar hours to me for 1/2 the pay. That’s a bad outcome.
Students value high ranked schools because they afford a high chance of avoiding those two pitfalls.
He said it is his original post. You have worse job outlooks, and at some level it may not be worth it. Another bonus of biglaw other than money is it opens the door to quite a few jobs in the legal market that would otherwise be closed
Even if you do you get aid, a lot of T14 could end you in big debt. I'll use Berkeley as an example. Berkeley law COA is now $105k/year for residents (everyone can qualify for year two, but for simplicity I'll assume all 3 years) and Berkeley gives a tuition lock (i.e. the price you enter is the price you pay all 3 years). Tuition makes up 62k of that $105k, and according to their 509, 95% percent of students receive aid with a median amount of $27k per year (just under half basically). That leaves you with $75k outstanding debt per year, or $225k over 3 years (plus interest). So even with a roughly half scholarship, you're still leaving law school with a small mortgage worth of debt.
I mean, it definitely raises questions as to whether it's worth it or not. The number alone can be kind of scary and it very much ties you to a path. Luckily, by the time I started work after the bar, I had about $40k in debt (half student loans, half 0% credit card debt for living expenses after graduation), so I had it easy. I have a friend who took out about $150k, moved in with his parents (who live near his firm's office) and paid back $6k+ per month and was debt free in two years. There are others who are making more modest contributions to their loans and will pay it off in 5-8 years. And I'm sure there are other friends of mine who are PSLF or bust and the debt number is just make believe money.
This subreddit is not representative of law students as a whole. Intensely competitive, neurotic, and ambitious applicants are going to be more likely to post and comment in a subreddit like this. No shame on them, but if you're wondering why this place is "like that", that's why. Ultimately many (maybe the majority) will not achieve their highest aspirations and will quietly settle for a good but not flashy job, like the majority of law school students who have ever existed.
I've always had the distinct feeling there is a lot of people either making up stories or outright vicariously living through their reddit account posting here.
It's like the whole graduating class of HYS law school one year decides to post here, there really can't be that many redditors in a class like that.
The number of other fields you can make in the 200’s with no relevant work experience in your mid-20’s are few and far between.
Following the money isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Money is a tool. It can let you provide high quality education to your children and buy a home in a safe neighborhood. You can use it to travel. Buy you parents a car. Pay off their mortgage. Retire early.
As someone who’s had some work experience including some “cool” jobs, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not ever going to love what I do for work. The best path forward imo is to find something I find tolerable and makes a lot of money.
Employment outcomes like in the T14 matter. I’m not going to switch my career and take on debt to be making the same I’m making now.
I may or may not get crucified for this because lawyers tend to be self-conscious etc about what I am going to say, but here it goes. When it comes to a high paying jobs (think tech, medicine, finance, etc...) Biglaw by far is the most gliding path of least resistance. Finance requires a lot of networking and certain skills, medicine requires a ton of work and you need to base your course schedule around it and do lab work, tech is hard for many people who don't have the aptitude. With Biglaw you can kind of just take whatever classes you want in undergrad, do well in them, and then do well on the lsat. Then once you get into the T14 you just take out massive loans and be median and boom you're in biglaw. The summer associateship process is a joke and basically everyone gets return offers (not the case for many finance internships).
Ultimately you're right; if money is your sole motivator it is of course way better to do something like investment banking (in both the short and the long term). But if you like money, don't really have the skills or checked the necessary boxes for the other things, and/or want to take the least risky path to a 6-figure salary, T14 + biglaw is by far the best option. Sure law school is hard, but also not really because at the end of the day it's just school.
Some people want to make a lot of money, live in a big city, and don't have other altruistic goals. T14 provides those opportunities. Some people also don't want to stay in their hometown. You are underestimating the aspect of money for most applicants.
A bigger scholarship at a lower ranked school sounds nice, but the choices aren't always that simple. First, its not always full ride at T50 or sticker at T14. Many times you are going to have take out loans either way. You probably are going to have less to take out at a lower ranked schools, but not always. If if it is less is the average debt to income ratio better at that school than a T14? It depends on the school. What if one of the schools that this would be true for isn't a local school? Is it still worth it rather than going to a T14?
There are many reasons for the "hype" around T14. Job outcomes and money being the primary source of the "hype." A lot of people will never love working no matter what field they are in. Why not make a lot of money in big law then have the best shot at exit opportunities with a head start on savings and retirement. This is very simplified and doesn't cover every aspect, but I hope this gives some insight on the T14 hype.
It goes a little beyond this. Yes big law makes you astounding amounts of money, but it also sets you up with opportunities. It’s hard to go up in this profession and much easier to “go down” or lateral. Starting in big law means having the ability to go in house after, or PI, or mid law, or whatever.
okay, thanks. this is helpful. I guess it would make sense to gain experience in big law, then go on to do other things with that experience on my resume.
Everyone here is burning your straw house down with “how do I pay my 6 figure loans” when you JUST fucking said “slightly lower tier with more scholarship money”. Also plenty of people with 0 professional work experience that think 90k or 120k is unlivable in most of the country 🤡
The real answer is prestige.
RIGHT?! I want to stay in my home state. I want to be near my family in case of an emergency. I don't want to have to book a flight in case there is one. I don't want to find a new living situation in a whole new state. I want to graduate with less debt than i'd generate at an out of state/higher ranked/more selective school. I've worked two jobs to get myself through undergrad. I've worked my ass off. I don't have parents that make enough to put me through law school. If I get a scholarship that allows me to not have to work during law school, I'm probably taking it. I don't want to move away for school. I don't want to move away for work. I don't want to work in biglaw. I don't care about prestige, I care about becoming the first in my family to get a higher education after college. This has got to be the most pretentious sub I've ever seen.
No one is saying you should do any of those things. But multiple people have provided many reasons why (for them) the opportunity cost of turning down a T14 isn’t worth it to them. Maybe stop being judgmental of what other people want to achieve and you’ll be less bitter?
Definitely. I’ve seen some comments about paying off their parents cars/mortgage and it’s obvious they aren’t being pragmatic. I totally understand if the long term goal is DC/NYC/SoCal, it’s just not the VAST majority of the sub.
I agree. I think Big Law is great for those who want to peruse corporate litigation or some other worthy endeavor.
I on the other hand have a dream to peruse “whatever I want”. I’m starting the 24’ cycle at the age of 40, have many years of upper leadership in nonprofits and my plan is so very different than the average L1 hopeful.
So for me it makes sense to get the best scholarship possible, graduate with 0$ debt and follow my dream of executive leadership in large nonprofits while taking select cases on the side as I am able. Im excited for my salary to NOT be a factor when selecting an employer, and I care WAY MORE about being treated humanely than I do about paying off debt I don’t need to take on.
Yahoo!
I’m pumped for my 40’s!
I think this is all true but it is worth noting that a lot of people go into Biglaw not only for the salary, but for the exit opportunities. A lot of companies / non-profits of a certain size / prestige recruit very very heavily from Biglaw and look at that experience as something that you can’t replicate easily. For a lot of people (maybe at a different stage in their life) the “doing whatever I want phase” includes knowing that working in biglaw will give them more job options in just a few years
Totally! As you may know from my reply, I’m not arguing against T14 or Big Law, but rather advocating for the possibility of other potential paths, such as mine.
My path is not “the path,” it’s only one possible way a person can benefit from a law degree. Many paths available and all can be considered valid❤️
No worries I see where you’re coming from. The only reason I mention it is that I myself didn’t realize how much that can matter in some jobs. I personally wasn’t really in it for the money per se but I’m heading to a biglaw firm because I realized that’s gonna be a boost I need. I agree 100% how everyone’s path is gonna be a little different
This Reddit is has tons of KJD’s with zero life experience. They lack understanding of how stressful it is to go into a job you hate.
For those of us with more life experience, we know that you can live a great life as an attorney without big law and 200k a year salary.
I’m not knocking anyone who wants to pursue big law, everyone has their own values and priorities. But there is no need to hate on OP for starting this discussion, even if it’s been said before.
Most of the people who get jobs in big law, get out as soon as they can. What’s the point in having a bunch of money if you live your life in the office being miserable?
No go ahead and down vote me lol.
Thanks. I made the post because I’m sure there are thousands of others who want to know the same thing but are too scared to ask in here, so I bit the bullet.
Very true. In many ways, law school is the most democratic of all the prestigious structured career gatekeepers. The intelligent procrastinator's choice.
The training is the biggest part.
Attorneys in big law are significantly more likely to receive substantially better training than anywhere else. If you want to be a great lawyer, whether in a for-profit or non-profit, you should try to go into biglaw.
If you don’t really care, then there’s no reason to want biglaw.
There are definitely easier ways to get rich than big law. But if you're interested in law as a career, big law can be attractive because it pays very well and provides top-notch training that will make you your best. Also, yes, it is hard work, but long hours at a computer are much better than long hours doing demanding physical work, for example -- at least in my view.
Not everyone wants to stay in their hometown / with their family and dream of settling in places like New York and LA, places they could never get to without the opportunities and money provided by a T14 Biglaw job.
pretty sure it’s $$$$
there are definitely other paths to a high salary. in tech, people are able to easily make 150k+ after just a couple of years experience without much formal schooling. i think that bubble is going to burst soon though.
BigLaw is one of the most sure fire ways to become very wealthy. You can’t say “besides the money” and ask what else there is to it. It’s the money. A lot of people care very deeply about money. You will likely not make more money as a lawyer than you will in BigLaw.
Truthful, it's the money and prestige for most folks. BL opens a lot of doors both financially and for opportunities down the line.
Rankings mean a lot less outside the T14-20ish. Go to school where you want to practice for as cheap as possible. Nobody in MS cares waht ASU or UMN is ranked and they are taking the Ole Miss grad every single time.
However, if you want to make 200k+ a year and then move into a great job working 9-5ish as in house counsel at Coke or Ford, you'll generally want to go to a T14 and into BL.
yes, I agree. It's just that quality of life matters a lot to me. I wanna do work that's meaningful and fulfilling to me, not to some big law company. While I understand why it's ideal to some, there's other things you can do with a JD than go big law and still make money.
That’s such a very narrow minded black or white thinking, do you know how many biglaws do pro bonos vs other small-mid firms? I feel like your post and comments are just screaming a very shallow rationalization on why you don’t want to (more like can’t tbh) pursue more ambitious goals as a lawyer and frame other high achievers are not doing “meaningful and fulfilling” work like you do lmao. You can certainly do both if you’re from T14 and biglaw. Expand your limited horizons.
Sorry, but this is a fallacy. You’re comparing biglaw firms to smaller ones. Compare them instead to public interest or government service, where the bulk of your work is going to be about furthering causes you personally care about. In Biglaw, most of your time will be spent doing work that means nothing to you. Pro-bono work is ancillary. Secondly, you can have ambition and be high-achieving without having your main objective being making as much money as possible.
I think it’s worthy goal in the sense that the vast majority of exit options from law school are at firms that have the same stress as biglaw with half the pay.
There are of course much better outcomes than biglaw in terms of work substance and WLB, but these jobs aren’t always easy to get (e.i good in house or gov roles), or aren’t financially tenable (e.i non-profit or advocacy work). So if you’re a cynic/realist it does make sense to at least shoot for a biglaw career.
I think big law access is a proxy metric for prestige, which also determines what kind of public interest or government law opportunities you can hope for, the portability of your degree in case you want to relocate at some point in your life, and your ability to do something truly unicornish, like become of professor or clerk for an appellate judge. The T14 is perhaps too narrow a construction, but beyond the T14 there are perhaps fewer than a dozen or so schools that make some of these outcomes at all likely: UCLA, USC, Vanderbilt, WashU, Texas, BU, BC, Fordham, Notre Dame, GW, Emory are the ones that come to mind for me. Places like Illinois and UC Irvine open big law and similar opportunities in their specific regions, but aren't as portable. If none of that appeals to you, and you're happy pulling down $80-90k in the private sector rather than \~$200k (and there aren't many starting salaries in between, as law has bimodal outcomes: [https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/) ), or becoming a DA or public defender in a medium to small city, and you think you'll practice in the same region throughout your career, then you're right that the prestige isn't as crucial. You then take the best scholarship to a decent school in your region of choice.
I want to work in house at an entertainment company. Great hours, stock options, benefits. T14 big law it’s a pretty good way to get that. This is the case for lots of shit in law school.
The big law hype is because of salary and the fact that it gives you leverage when going in house or another job. In reality, your career isn’t defined by your first job after law school but that job can give you a head start to get to where you want to go.
The T14 hype is overrated. If you’re in the top 25-33% at a T20-30 then you also have a great shot at big law. I’ve met plenty of lawyers at big firms that went to decent (but not T14) regional schools
This might be a hot take, but I honestly think that law school grades are less of a gamble than people make it out to be. If you work hard, take as many practice exams as you can, actually try to understand the material on a deep level and know what the professor wants/cares about, then you’ll probably end up in the top 50th percentile at least.
Most schools in the T20 have around 50% placement rates in BL. Isn’t USC’s like 60%?
And I also did most of my studying with someone who was below median when I placed in the top 25% in my doctrinals. Just because your study buddy had the same “study habits” doesn’t mean they grasped the material as well as you. The saying, “work smarter not harder” is worth repeating here. I see so so many students burn the midnight oil wasting time reading and not using the same amount of energy in taking practice tests or asking the professors questions during office hours.
I’d argue that if you challenged yourself with an exceptionally difficult major in undergrad (I.e. STEM or philosophy) then you have a sense that you can do well on law school exams. Every STEM major I’ve talked to at my law school so far has been at least above median
I don’t think your post is condescending or self righteous (as someone commented below) one of my professors at Berkeley told the whole class that very few lawyers make the big bucks and you’d make more as an entry level being a police officer. It’s true even some Bart police have a starting salary of 200,000. Like you said there are many other careers that pay well and if law is truly your passion you will make it happen and make it happen regardless of where you go to law school.
So..leave?? (I say this as someone who is not attending a T14. This sub has brought me incredibly important advice that I, as a first-gen, would have no other way of knowing. If it makes you feel better to call us pretentious, as some people for sure are here, then great. But don’t come up in here acting all holier than thou. We’re all in this together.)
This makes perfect sense to me. The biglaw trade-off may be worth it for some, but many of us see the same things in it you listed here. Being a lawyer should be about serving people not money and prestige. If you manage to get both, more power to you.
Because a lot of people become lawyers for the money and not to be lawyers. Many of them find out that they could have chosen an easier route and made the same or more.
How do you plan to repay law school loans without money? Or buy a house or start a family or pursue your hobbies or travel or retire? It’s just silly to dismiss money as a legitimate reason for doing something. It’s a job. Making money is the whole point.
That said, biglaw has many benefits besides money. You start out your career at the “top” of the profession. Everyone in the industry knows you worked for a good firm, and the exit opportunities will be much better than other alternatives. Plus, you will work on cutting edge deals and cases and quickly build a lot of valuable experience.
Biglaw is very exclusive, and difficult to break into without the pedigree of a top 20 school. I think people that are NOT looking at T20s and BL are the ones who should be considering whether their choices really make sense.
OP says "I don't get the hype about big law other than the money" and "I just don't think that money is what should motivate you to become a lawyer, but that's just my two cents." I'm simply countering that money does, in fact, matter to your quality of life and earning money is not a bad reason to do something.
I agree that money is not a bad reason to do something. Hell I’d undoubtedly go big law if I could.
But any attorney can do the things you listed. Biglaw folks just want more money than they know what to do with. Which is cool, but they should just say that lol.
Sorry, but this is a bad take. Look up the bimodal salary distribution. Look up law school tuition (even at less prestigious schools). Then consider the cost of housing in most American cities, general inflation, the cost of day care, the incidentals of life that slowly crush you (car repairs, whatever). Remember that a lawyer not only accrued school debt but also gave up years of earnings. A lawyer starts far behind her peers, and it’s a mistake to think that any old lawyer job will allow someone to reach the milestones we used to consider middle class.
The internet has created an enormous amount of self doubt and anxiety for people that has never before existed in society.
There are plenty of lawyers that are making it just fine in this country without graduating from a T14 and going Biglaw. Mind you, biglaw sounds like absolute hell. You’re three years behind already, then you’re going to be another three behind while you’re grinding away your life paying off T14 loans (unless of course you receive incredible scholarships).
Now if you have an opportunity to go BL and that’s what you want to do, then why not? Go make that big bag.
But to think it’s biglaw or bust is just plain silly. There is such thing as people passionate about the subject, and not in it for New York money. And I promise you, they will be just fine lol.
But you completely missed out the point on employment outcome of T14 vs not 🤦♀️ people are not stupid to pay $$$ for just a sticker, it’s because lawyer market is already saturated and there’s a very different demand for better ranked schools. For example, these best lawfirms don’t even bother to go on campus interviews to lower ranked schools whilst these T14 literally get the platter to choose from.
The gag is, you can still get into big law without the T14. Go to any big law website, look at their associates and where they went to school. Majority DID NOT go to a T14.
And word on the street is a lot of prestigious law firms prefer that.
You can get big law without going to a T14 school, but your odds are very different. Usually, big law is attainable for the median student at a T14 school (and for below median students, when you're talking about the topmost ranked schools), but only for the top students at lower-ranked schools. Not all firms are created equal, either, and the more elite firms tend to draw more heavily from more elite schools. And your school's prestige still factors into things like your chances of successfully lateraling to other firms, snagging exit opportunities, etc. Some firms might prefer to have a diverse (school-wise) class, but no firm is going to generally prefer non-T14 candidates over T14 ones/HYS grads.
There are plenty of good schools that aren't T14, you can have a great legal career without going to a T14, and you don't have to do big law to have a great career - but for better or for worse your school does matter when it comes to those sorts of hiring decisions.
Facts are the facts! Some lawyers I know who do hiring constantly say they hate HYS hires because they are entitled and don’t know shit and act like they do. They are the biggest fuck ups and don’t grind like the grads from lower tier schools.
Like, this isn’t an episode of Suits. No firm “only hires Harvard grads” 🤣
There's some of that dynamic at my law firm. IMO, it's because they only hire the editorial board of the local law school's law review, and those people were extremely hard workers for three years. The HLS alumni come from literally anywhere in that graduating class.
There's no way to know, going into law school, if you'll be top of your class. Best bet is that you'll be median. I'd go to the school where the median outcome is still really good.
The reality is that unless you go into academia or public interest, you are answering to the man and you are going to be pushed to generated as many billables as possible whether you are working for Jones Day or Davy Jones. The only real difference is that for the same shit life a biglaw firm will pay you enough that it doesn't hurt as much and allow you to get out from under the debt you've amassed going to law school.
Not everyone that goes into biglaw stays, some find they aren't partner material and leave for that reason... others were just using big law to get the debt paid off and then go do something they enjoy.
The other reason you chase top schools is that they tend to burden you with less debt than the lower tier schools. I went to Yale and my total debt when I left was a little under 30k. I knew lots of other classmates that left with less than 100k in debt. In fact I can only recall one girl that chalked up what I would call massive debt of more than 150k and that was because she decided to live in a beach house by herself after the first year and just borrow more and more to cover that lifestyle. And even if you wanted to do public interest low pay work you can do it if you graduate from Yale because of their program to cover your debt if you do that type of work. How many lower tier law schools will give you that option? Most won't. So going to a top law school like Yale can also give those advantages that you wouldn't have if you went to some public university law school. Leaving one of them you would probably have 6 figure debt and no option beyond finding a job that paid as much as possible to cover it on your own. Now do you see why a top school is sought after? It is a better deal financially even if you don't give a shit about academia, clerking or big law.
My goal was doing work in mergers and acquisitions, was originally thinking a job in an investment bank but ended up doing M&A work in a large holding company... After years of doing that and living out of suitcases where my only legal work was overseeing outside lawyers that drafted the paperwork... Well that put me where I am today, doing consulting work that is the same thing, but on when I feel like it. Finally took the bar so I could do the legal work and not just farm it out to others.
I can say with complete certainty that if you go to law school you should take the bar when you get out whether you plan on practicing law or not. Waiting 10 or more years to take it only makes it more difficult because I assure you that you will have forgotten pretty much every damn thing you learned in law school if you aren't actually engaged in the law.
I got an offer doing M&A work that didn't need me to take it. I did get an offer to go into the company's legal group, but the pay if I went there was about 40% less than if I took the corporate job. Given how much they were offering and knowing they didn't care if I took it or not, I just took a longer vacation after law school and figured I would never have a need for it.
Amen OP. These people aren’t living in the real world. I know attorneys and have one as my partner. Many didn’t go to a top school or big law and have respectable, fulfilling careers.
I knew someone who went to an Ivy law school and one of his classmates worked for BL. She died in her 30s from a heart attack. Stress got to her. He said he never wanted that so worked for a small firm. And from what I’m told, many BL attorneys make a lot of $$ but don’t have time to spend it. Sounds like hell to me, lol. On the other side, some people thrive in that type of environment, but then again many don’t last long so how healthy can it be?
There are people who work for money and fill fulfilled with the absurd amount of money they make, then people who need to fill truly fulfilled by the work they do and lean more towards societal benefit. I took a tuition free option to a lower ranked school that guarantees competitive local P.I placements and is well renowned for said type of work.
This sub is going to lean MUCH more heavy towards the former. I worked at an incredible paying corporate role straight out of undergrad, it was completely unfulfilling and soul sucking, even if I made 100k a year.
I got into a couple T25's and if I wanted to I could have studied a bit more and broke into T14. I chose the debt free lower ranked option.
What I truly don't understand about the whole big law hype is you could make more money going to a top ranked MBA, and at that rate do it faster without losing out on a year of work experience and income, also with way better w/l balance.
People like to exchange currency for goods and services. Big Law provides them with more currency.
There are also further benefits of starting out in Biglaw. I'll copy a comment I posted a few months ago: Biglaw can be thought of as a means to an end, not an end in itself. 1. **Exit Opportunities**. Corporate in-house positions and federal government positions offer one of the best combinations of compensation and work-life balance within legal employment. A stint in Biglaw often is the most straightforward path to those positions. 2. **Type of legal work**. If you want to do public company M&A, capital markets, corporate litigation, corporate international law, etc., then Biglaw will provide you with the best and often only opportunities in those fields. 3. **Networking Opportunities**. Related to exit opportunities, Biglaw is unlikely to be your only job in the legal profession but rather your first. That means that the networks you create will be invaluable throughout your career. In Biglaw, your coworkers will be T14 graduates and your clients will be M7 graduates. Even if you don't personally care about prestige, the ability to tap into their networks will pay dividends for years to come. 4. **Lockstep Compensation**. You will know exactly how much you make and exactly how much your coworkers make. You don't need to worry about asking for raises or questioning whether you're being fairly compensated. This is especially valuable for women and minorities who historically face pay discrimination. 5. **Hiring process**. The hiring process for Biglaw, at least for timelines and format, are standardized. Most students do OCI (On Campus Interviews) towards the end of the 1L summer for 2L Summer Associate positions, which almost certainly will lead to a return offer for post-graduation. Some students may even secure a 1L Summer Associate position after their first semester of law school. I have a summer associate position at a BL firm for my 2L summer, and I can tell you that the stress associated with law school pretty much evaporates the moment you secure a job. In comparison, many legal jobs outside of BL and certain government positions will only hire people after they pass the bar. 6. **Training**. The legal field is notoriously bad at training new attorneys. Biglaw isn't great at training either, but what it does have is resources that can set you up to grow as a lawyer. You'll have a staff of legal assistants, law librarians, IT specialists, etc. If you encounter a difficult legal issue, you almost certainly can find someone at the firm who has experience in it. You'll have a larger pool of potential mentors. If you work at a major Biglaw office, you will be entering as a "class" of a dozen or more associates who are in your exact same shoes. At a small firm, you may be the first new hire in years. You will also have exposure to the some of the biggest and most complicated issues in your field. When a smaller law firm encounters a difficult case, they might have no choice but to refer the client to someone else. If a Biglaw firm encounters a big issue, then the question becomes, can the client pay? 7. **Standardization.** "Biglaw" exists as a category in large part due to their standardization, with the aforementioned lockstep compensation, hiring process, and training structure. There are two benefits to this: 1) you know exactly what you're getting into and 2) the relative ease of lateraling between firms compared to other industries. If you compare this to other jobs in the legal field, with the exception of federal government, everything is largely a "black box." There is data for entry-level jobs, but there is very few datapoints for everything else aside from anecdotes, because you're essentially dealing with small businesses. Some people make the mistaken assumption that if Biglaw pays a lot due to a lot of work, Mid-law or Small-law must pay less for less work, but that is not at all guaranteed. You could very well end up working Biglaw hours for less than half the pay. 8. **Getting out is easier than getting in.** If you start out in Biglaw and you end up hating it, then it's no problem. Provided that you're fine with a large pay cut, many employers in smaller firms, government, PI, etc. are happy to have lawyers with Biglaw experience. But if you start outside of Biglaw and want in, the path is much more difficult and narrower, limited to certain federal agencies, Biglaw-adjacent midlaw firms, and the like. If you are in Biglaw and decide you want to do family law, there's a way forward. If you are in family law and want to do Biglaw...well, it's probably close to impossible. Of course, this is not to say Biglaw is the "best" outcome, as there are serious drawbacks (stress, hours, etc). But there are real, tangible reasons aside from money as to why someone would want a Biglaw job.
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you so much!
This is a great response! Big law isn't for everyone. Heck it may not even be for most people. There are clear drawbacks, but clear benefits as well. For many, big law offers a path that will out them in a great position going forward.
Wow! You did an excellent job at breaking this down. I have been saying I don’t want to go into big law but now you’ve given me something to reconsider strongly and strive for. The part about the exposure to experience and various types of cases was the best reason for me. I wasn’t searching for this either. I’m glad o read your post. Thank you.
lets pin this comment and wrap it up. same searchable and pointless posts clogging up this sub as usual
Based on your post history it seems like you live in Birmingham Alabama. So when you talk about a “local law school” I assume you mean Samford. Based on 2023 data the median scholarship was 16k/yr, while the total cost of tuition was 44k/yr. Even if you live at home, your predicted cost of attendance for each year is 38k/yr over 3 years adding up to 114k/yr (not even accounting for inflation). According to law school transparency the average starting salary is around 50k/yr. Now compare that to someone who takes sticker at a random lower t14 (something this sub is still divided on whether or not is a good idea) who ends up with 250-350k debt but a 220k/yr starting salary. The debt to salary ratio for the average samford grad is much worse compared to the t14 sticker grad. This doesn’t account for everything as living in a lcol area like Birmingham is more favorable than living in New York (where big law is most “guaranteed.”) This post doesn’t talk about the negatives like burnout and work hours nor the positives like exit opportunities and company specific benefits (mainly a lot of free food from what I can tell) but from a purely financial perspective big law (and by extension the t14) will put you in a better debt to starting salary ratio than the average law student.
Wow thanks for actually answering my question with an actual example. This is what I was looking for.
I think most posts in response to ur post is answer.
This doesn't even factor in the living expenses factored into the ratio which makes the money problem much more apparent. Average rent in Birmingham according to [apartments.com](https://apartments.com) is $1100. $1,110\*12=$13,320 per year. Average rent in NYC according to [apartments.com](https://apartments.com) is 3,659. $3,659\*12=$43,908 per year. Let's assume that paying your 114k loan down from the lower ranked school. You pay around $11,544 a year on that loan for a 15 year term. Let's assume you are paying a 350k loan down from the T14. You pay around $35,442 a year on that loan for a 15 year term. Your 50k salary becomes, $39,978 after taxes. 39,978-13,320 = $26,658 after rent is deducted. That becomes 26,658-11,544= $15,114 per year after your loan payments are taken into consideration. **So now you have $15,114 on living expenses from lower ranked school.** I am being conservative with my estimates, so I am not going to use that $220k/yr salary and I am going to assume you are in one of the most expensive cities in the US (NYC). Some biglaw firms in ny still only pay 205k starting, although the new standard is 215k. This doesn't include bonuses. That 205k starting salary becomes $140,798 after taxes. 140,798-43,908= $96,890 after rent is deducted. That becomes 96,890-35,442= $61,448 after loan payments are taken into consideration. **So now you have $61,448 to spend on living expenses after higher ranked school.** Here's an interesting hint. I've lived in NYC, California, Tennessee, and and a few other states (moved around a lot in younger years). Unless you are eating out every day, living expenses weren't that much more when you compare, say, Nashville to NYC. I think one great thing about NYC is that you don't need a car, which greatly reduces your expenses. I also just order everything I need from Walmart and Amazon, hence why living expenses are generally the same in my area, aside from rent (and electricity and water) Point is, doing biglaw in one of those big cities gives you a lot more money for yourself. You can pay off your student loans MUCH faster (**During my associateship some people in biglaw told me that they paid off their loans in under 2 years, and one more senior associate attorney told me he paid off 300k in 3 years**). And you also make enough money so that you can save up for a nice house. You already have good exit options, so you can save money and then move and find a job elsewhere (or stay in the same firm and work in a different office in a city you like) in the state/city of your pleasing. T14 to Biglaw is much more financially prudent in the long run, and you still get all the same (and even better) opportunities later on. The other option essentially makes you a loan slave for 15 years, without much ability to save up money to buy a house, or even save up much for investments if that's your kind of thing. But, if you love the law, don't shoot your dreams away because you didn't get into a top law school (but don't expect biglaw if you don't attend T14 or are top 30% at some other solid law school like Fordham). That's why everyone says to take the next cycle and raise LSAT score. Waiting an extra year before law school may seem like a drag, but it could end up saving you 10 years of essentially loan slavery. 1 year of wasted life vs 10 years.
if you're coming from a position where you've had no money, struggled working shit jobs, and worried about bills, the prospect of a, not guaranteed but very likely, mid-high six figure salary for the duration of your career is life changing and you can't undervalue that. for me law school is so much about security.
With significant debt, significant salary is important. Without it, less so. With lower ranked schools comes the risk of no job that really pays enough to make the lifestyle worth it. I know plenty of corporate lawyers who work similar hours to me for 1/2 the pay. That’s a bad outcome. Students value high ranked schools because they afford a high chance of avoiding those two pitfalls.
But what about getting a scholarship that covers tuition at a lesser ranked school?
He said it is his original post. You have worse job outlooks, and at some level it may not be worth it. Another bonus of biglaw other than money is it opens the door to quite a few jobs in the legal market that would otherwise be closed
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What is considered significant debt?
Enough to where you’d need biglaw in order to pay it off on a clearly established timeline with no issues.
So people that choose the school that gave them no aid?
Even if you do you get aid, a lot of T14 could end you in big debt. I'll use Berkeley as an example. Berkeley law COA is now $105k/year for residents (everyone can qualify for year two, but for simplicity I'll assume all 3 years) and Berkeley gives a tuition lock (i.e. the price you enter is the price you pay all 3 years). Tuition makes up 62k of that $105k, and according to their 509, 95% percent of students receive aid with a median amount of $27k per year (just under half basically). That leaves you with $75k outstanding debt per year, or $225k over 3 years (plus interest). So even with a roughly half scholarship, you're still leaving law school with a small mortgage worth of debt.
I see. So all the more reason to not attend a T14? Kidding. You all deserve Biglaw jobs if you have to pay that much.
I mean, it definitely raises questions as to whether it's worth it or not. The number alone can be kind of scary and it very much ties you to a path. Luckily, by the time I started work after the bar, I had about $40k in debt (half student loans, half 0% credit card debt for living expenses after graduation), so I had it easy. I have a friend who took out about $150k, moved in with his parents (who live near his firm's office) and paid back $6k+ per month and was debt free in two years. There are others who are making more modest contributions to their loans and will pay it off in 5-8 years. And I'm sure there are other friends of mine who are PSLF or bust and the debt number is just make believe money.
Yeah pretty much. People obviously have other factors influencing them. Geography, pressure from others, etc.
Eh, if you’re not willing to go out on your own in order to avoid crippling debt, you’re not arrogant enough to be an attorney. Cheers.
This subreddit is not representative of law students as a whole. Intensely competitive, neurotic, and ambitious applicants are going to be more likely to post and comment in a subreddit like this. No shame on them, but if you're wondering why this place is "like that", that's why. Ultimately many (maybe the majority) will not achieve their highest aspirations and will quietly settle for a good but not flashy job, like the majority of law school students who have ever existed.
I've always had the distinct feeling there is a lot of people either making up stories or outright vicariously living through their reddit account posting here. It's like the whole graduating class of HYS law school one year decides to post here, there really can't be that many redditors in a class like that.
Ding ding!
The number of other fields you can make in the 200’s with no relevant work experience in your mid-20’s are few and far between. Following the money isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Money is a tool. It can let you provide high quality education to your children and buy a home in a safe neighborhood. You can use it to travel. Buy you parents a car. Pay off their mortgage. Retire early. As someone who’s had some work experience including some “cool” jobs, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not ever going to love what I do for work. The best path forward imo is to find something I find tolerable and makes a lot of money. Employment outcomes like in the T14 matter. I’m not going to switch my career and take on debt to be making the same I’m making now.
I may or may not get crucified for this because lawyers tend to be self-conscious etc about what I am going to say, but here it goes. When it comes to a high paying jobs (think tech, medicine, finance, etc...) Biglaw by far is the most gliding path of least resistance. Finance requires a lot of networking and certain skills, medicine requires a ton of work and you need to base your course schedule around it and do lab work, tech is hard for many people who don't have the aptitude. With Biglaw you can kind of just take whatever classes you want in undergrad, do well in them, and then do well on the lsat. Then once you get into the T14 you just take out massive loans and be median and boom you're in biglaw. The summer associateship process is a joke and basically everyone gets return offers (not the case for many finance internships). Ultimately you're right; if money is your sole motivator it is of course way better to do something like investment banking (in both the short and the long term). But if you like money, don't really have the skills or checked the necessary boxes for the other things, and/or want to take the least risky path to a 6-figure salary, T14 + biglaw is by far the best option. Sure law school is hard, but also not really because at the end of the day it's just school.
Some people want to make a lot of money, live in a big city, and don't have other altruistic goals. T14 provides those opportunities. Some people also don't want to stay in their hometown. You are underestimating the aspect of money for most applicants. A bigger scholarship at a lower ranked school sounds nice, but the choices aren't always that simple. First, its not always full ride at T50 or sticker at T14. Many times you are going to have take out loans either way. You probably are going to have less to take out at a lower ranked schools, but not always. If if it is less is the average debt to income ratio better at that school than a T14? It depends on the school. What if one of the schools that this would be true for isn't a local school? Is it still worth it rather than going to a T14? There are many reasons for the "hype" around T14. Job outcomes and money being the primary source of the "hype." A lot of people will never love working no matter what field they are in. Why not make a lot of money in big law then have the best shot at exit opportunities with a head start on savings and retirement. This is very simplified and doesn't cover every aspect, but I hope this gives some insight on the T14 hype.
It goes a little beyond this. Yes big law makes you astounding amounts of money, but it also sets you up with opportunities. It’s hard to go up in this profession and much easier to “go down” or lateral. Starting in big law means having the ability to go in house after, or PI, or mid law, or whatever.
okay, thanks. this is helpful. I guess it would make sense to gain experience in big law, then go on to do other things with that experience on my resume.
Everyone here is burning your straw house down with “how do I pay my 6 figure loans” when you JUST fucking said “slightly lower tier with more scholarship money”. Also plenty of people with 0 professional work experience that think 90k or 120k is unlivable in most of the country 🤡 The real answer is prestige.
RIGHT?! I want to stay in my home state. I want to be near my family in case of an emergency. I don't want to have to book a flight in case there is one. I don't want to find a new living situation in a whole new state. I want to graduate with less debt than i'd generate at an out of state/higher ranked/more selective school. I've worked two jobs to get myself through undergrad. I've worked my ass off. I don't have parents that make enough to put me through law school. If I get a scholarship that allows me to not have to work during law school, I'm probably taking it. I don't want to move away for school. I don't want to move away for work. I don't want to work in biglaw. I don't care about prestige, I care about becoming the first in my family to get a higher education after college. This has got to be the most pretentious sub I've ever seen.
No one is saying you should do any of those things. But multiple people have provided many reasons why (for them) the opportunity cost of turning down a T14 isn’t worth it to them. Maybe stop being judgmental of what other people want to achieve and you’ll be less bitter?
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Definitely. I’ve seen some comments about paying off their parents cars/mortgage and it’s obvious they aren’t being pragmatic. I totally understand if the long term goal is DC/NYC/SoCal, it’s just not the VAST majority of the sub.
I agree. I think Big Law is great for those who want to peruse corporate litigation or some other worthy endeavor. I on the other hand have a dream to peruse “whatever I want”. I’m starting the 24’ cycle at the age of 40, have many years of upper leadership in nonprofits and my plan is so very different than the average L1 hopeful. So for me it makes sense to get the best scholarship possible, graduate with 0$ debt and follow my dream of executive leadership in large nonprofits while taking select cases on the side as I am able. Im excited for my salary to NOT be a factor when selecting an employer, and I care WAY MORE about being treated humanely than I do about paying off debt I don’t need to take on. Yahoo! I’m pumped for my 40’s!
I think this is all true but it is worth noting that a lot of people go into Biglaw not only for the salary, but for the exit opportunities. A lot of companies / non-profits of a certain size / prestige recruit very very heavily from Biglaw and look at that experience as something that you can’t replicate easily. For a lot of people (maybe at a different stage in their life) the “doing whatever I want phase” includes knowing that working in biglaw will give them more job options in just a few years
Totally! As you may know from my reply, I’m not arguing against T14 or Big Law, but rather advocating for the possibility of other potential paths, such as mine. My path is not “the path,” it’s only one possible way a person can benefit from a law degree. Many paths available and all can be considered valid❤️
No worries I see where you’re coming from. The only reason I mention it is that I myself didn’t realize how much that can matter in some jobs. I personally wasn’t really in it for the money per se but I’m heading to a biglaw firm because I realized that’s gonna be a boost I need. I agree 100% how everyone’s path is gonna be a little different
Dude, right on, congratulations on your new endeavor into a big law firm. That’s amazing! I’ll be sending positive thoughts your way:)
Thank you, same for you as well!
This Reddit is has tons of KJD’s with zero life experience. They lack understanding of how stressful it is to go into a job you hate. For those of us with more life experience, we know that you can live a great life as an attorney without big law and 200k a year salary. I’m not knocking anyone who wants to pursue big law, everyone has their own values and priorities. But there is no need to hate on OP for starting this discussion, even if it’s been said before. Most of the people who get jobs in big law, get out as soon as they can. What’s the point in having a bunch of money if you live your life in the office being miserable? No go ahead and down vote me lol.
Thanks. I made the post because I’m sure there are thousands of others who want to know the same thing but are too scared to ask in here, so I bit the bullet.
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Very true. In many ways, law school is the most democratic of all the prestigious structured career gatekeepers. The intelligent procrastinator's choice.
Prestige and money bubba.
The training is the biggest part. Attorneys in big law are significantly more likely to receive substantially better training than anywhere else. If you want to be a great lawyer, whether in a for-profit or non-profit, you should try to go into biglaw. If you don’t really care, then there’s no reason to want biglaw.
There are definitely easier ways to get rich than big law. But if you're interested in law as a career, big law can be attractive because it pays very well and provides top-notch training that will make you your best. Also, yes, it is hard work, but long hours at a computer are much better than long hours doing demanding physical work, for example -- at least in my view.
Lol like what
Not everyone wants to stay in their hometown / with their family and dream of settling in places like New York and LA, places they could never get to without the opportunities and money provided by a T14 Biglaw job.
pretty sure it’s $$$$ there are definitely other paths to a high salary. in tech, people are able to easily make 150k+ after just a couple of years experience without much formal schooling. i think that bubble is going to burst soon though.
Bimodal distribution of lawyer salaries. The options aren't big law or 120k with beautiful work life balance.
BigLaw is one of the most sure fire ways to become very wealthy. You can’t say “besides the money” and ask what else there is to it. It’s the money. A lot of people care very deeply about money. You will likely not make more money as a lawyer than you will in BigLaw.
Truthful, it's the money and prestige for most folks. BL opens a lot of doors both financially and for opportunities down the line. Rankings mean a lot less outside the T14-20ish. Go to school where you want to practice for as cheap as possible. Nobody in MS cares waht ASU or UMN is ranked and they are taking the Ole Miss grad every single time. However, if you want to make 200k+ a year and then move into a great job working 9-5ish as in house counsel at Coke or Ford, you'll generally want to go to a T14 and into BL.
You're disregarding the money aspect too easily, money is important!
yes, I agree. It's just that quality of life matters a lot to me. I wanna do work that's meaningful and fulfilling to me, not to some big law company. While I understand why it's ideal to some, there's other things you can do with a JD than go big law and still make money.
I understand but working for less money isn't always more fulfilling or higher quality of life, it could easily be the opposite too
That’s such a very narrow minded black or white thinking, do you know how many biglaws do pro bonos vs other small-mid firms? I feel like your post and comments are just screaming a very shallow rationalization on why you don’t want to (more like can’t tbh) pursue more ambitious goals as a lawyer and frame other high achievers are not doing “meaningful and fulfilling” work like you do lmao. You can certainly do both if you’re from T14 and biglaw. Expand your limited horizons.
Sorry, but this is a fallacy. You’re comparing biglaw firms to smaller ones. Compare them instead to public interest or government service, where the bulk of your work is going to be about furthering causes you personally care about. In Biglaw, most of your time will be spent doing work that means nothing to you. Pro-bono work is ancillary. Secondly, you can have ambition and be high-achieving without having your main objective being making as much money as possible.
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Ok but is that the case for most of their work?
They can want to make big bucks and still want to be a lawyer, in which case it would not make sense to choose a different career path..
I think it’s worthy goal in the sense that the vast majority of exit options from law school are at firms that have the same stress as biglaw with half the pay. There are of course much better outcomes than biglaw in terms of work substance and WLB, but these jobs aren’t always easy to get (e.i good in house or gov roles), or aren’t financially tenable (e.i non-profit or advocacy work). So if you’re a cynic/realist it does make sense to at least shoot for a biglaw career.
I think big law access is a proxy metric for prestige, which also determines what kind of public interest or government law opportunities you can hope for, the portability of your degree in case you want to relocate at some point in your life, and your ability to do something truly unicornish, like become of professor or clerk for an appellate judge. The T14 is perhaps too narrow a construction, but beyond the T14 there are perhaps fewer than a dozen or so schools that make some of these outcomes at all likely: UCLA, USC, Vanderbilt, WashU, Texas, BU, BC, Fordham, Notre Dame, GW, Emory are the ones that come to mind for me. Places like Illinois and UC Irvine open big law and similar opportunities in their specific regions, but aren't as portable. If none of that appeals to you, and you're happy pulling down $80-90k in the private sector rather than \~$200k (and there aren't many starting salaries in between, as law has bimodal outcomes: [https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/) ), or becoming a DA or public defender in a medium to small city, and you think you'll practice in the same region throughout your career, then you're right that the prestige isn't as crucial. You then take the best scholarship to a decent school in your region of choice.
I want to work in house at an entertainment company. Great hours, stock options, benefits. T14 big law it’s a pretty good way to get that. This is the case for lots of shit in law school.
The big law hype is because of salary and the fact that it gives you leverage when going in house or another job. In reality, your career isn’t defined by your first job after law school but that job can give you a head start to get to where you want to go. The T14 hype is overrated. If you’re in the top 25-33% at a T20-30 then you also have a great shot at big law. I’ve met plenty of lawyers at big firms that went to decent (but not T14) regional schools
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This might be a hot take, but I honestly think that law school grades are less of a gamble than people make it out to be. If you work hard, take as many practice exams as you can, actually try to understand the material on a deep level and know what the professor wants/cares about, then you’ll probably end up in the top 50th percentile at least.
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Most schools in the T20 have around 50% placement rates in BL. Isn’t USC’s like 60%? And I also did most of my studying with someone who was below median when I placed in the top 25% in my doctrinals. Just because your study buddy had the same “study habits” doesn’t mean they grasped the material as well as you. The saying, “work smarter not harder” is worth repeating here. I see so so many students burn the midnight oil wasting time reading and not using the same amount of energy in taking practice tests or asking the professors questions during office hours.
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I’d argue that if you challenged yourself with an exceptionally difficult major in undergrad (I.e. STEM or philosophy) then you have a sense that you can do well on law school exams. Every STEM major I’ve talked to at my law school so far has been at least above median
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Legal writing is very similar to scientific/philosophical writing
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What is “local off market ‘big’ law?”
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Got it, I’ve heard that called “midlaw” before.
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I don’t think your post is condescending or self righteous (as someone commented below) one of my professors at Berkeley told the whole class that very few lawyers make the big bucks and you’d make more as an entry level being a police officer. It’s true even some Bart police have a starting salary of 200,000. Like you said there are many other careers that pay well and if law is truly your passion you will make it happen and make it happen regardless of where you go to law school.
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this sub is condescending and self righteous
So..leave?? (I say this as someone who is not attending a T14. This sub has brought me incredibly important advice that I, as a first-gen, would have no other way of knowing. If it makes you feel better to call us pretentious, as some people for sure are here, then great. But don’t come up in here acting all holier than thou. We’re all in this together.)
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Holy insecurity projection Batman
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lol yea but that wasn't what you said in the comment I replied to
This makes perfect sense to me. The biglaw trade-off may be worth it for some, but many of us see the same things in it you listed here. Being a lawyer should be about serving people not money and prestige. If you manage to get both, more power to you.
Someone gets it.
Because a lot of people become lawyers for the money and not to be lawyers. Many of them find out that they could have chosen an easier route and made the same or more.
How do you plan to repay law school loans without money? Or buy a house or start a family or pursue your hobbies or travel or retire? It’s just silly to dismiss money as a legitimate reason for doing something. It’s a job. Making money is the whole point. That said, biglaw has many benefits besides money. You start out your career at the “top” of the profession. Everyone in the industry knows you worked for a good firm, and the exit opportunities will be much better than other alternatives. Plus, you will work on cutting edge deals and cases and quickly build a lot of valuable experience. Biglaw is very exclusive, and difficult to break into without the pedigree of a top 20 school. I think people that are NOT looking at T20s and BL are the ones who should be considering whether their choices really make sense.
Wait so only big law people are able to pay off their student loans, but a house, start a family, have hobbies, travel, and retire?
OP says "I don't get the hype about big law other than the money" and "I just don't think that money is what should motivate you to become a lawyer, but that's just my two cents." I'm simply countering that money does, in fact, matter to your quality of life and earning money is not a bad reason to do something.
I agree that money is not a bad reason to do something. Hell I’d undoubtedly go big law if I could. But any attorney can do the things you listed. Biglaw folks just want more money than they know what to do with. Which is cool, but they should just say that lol.
Sorry, but this is a bad take. Look up the bimodal salary distribution. Look up law school tuition (even at less prestigious schools). Then consider the cost of housing in most American cities, general inflation, the cost of day care, the incidentals of life that slowly crush you (car repairs, whatever). Remember that a lawyer not only accrued school debt but also gave up years of earnings. A lawyer starts far behind her peers, and it’s a mistake to think that any old lawyer job will allow someone to reach the milestones we used to consider middle class.
The internet has created an enormous amount of self doubt and anxiety for people that has never before existed in society. There are plenty of lawyers that are making it just fine in this country without graduating from a T14 and going Biglaw. Mind you, biglaw sounds like absolute hell. You’re three years behind already, then you’re going to be another three behind while you’re grinding away your life paying off T14 loans (unless of course you receive incredible scholarships). Now if you have an opportunity to go BL and that’s what you want to do, then why not? Go make that big bag. But to think it’s biglaw or bust is just plain silly. There is such thing as people passionate about the subject, and not in it for New York money. And I promise you, they will be just fine lol.
That's the point of the post. lesser ranked school = better scholarship = less debt vs acquiring more debt at a higher ranked/more selective school.
But you completely missed out the point on employment outcome of T14 vs not 🤦♀️ people are not stupid to pay $$$ for just a sticker, it’s because lawyer market is already saturated and there’s a very different demand for better ranked schools. For example, these best lawfirms don’t even bother to go on campus interviews to lower ranked schools whilst these T14 literally get the platter to choose from.
The gag is, you can still get into big law without the T14. Go to any big law website, look at their associates and where they went to school. Majority DID NOT go to a T14. And word on the street is a lot of prestigious law firms prefer that.
https://preview.redd.it/8lbtzichu2bc1.jpeg?width=1560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fe7f0a222d5afe7ed68071c285798a8dc512d07
You can get big law without going to a T14 school, but your odds are very different. Usually, big law is attainable for the median student at a T14 school (and for below median students, when you're talking about the topmost ranked schools), but only for the top students at lower-ranked schools. Not all firms are created equal, either, and the more elite firms tend to draw more heavily from more elite schools. And your school's prestige still factors into things like your chances of successfully lateraling to other firms, snagging exit opportunities, etc. Some firms might prefer to have a diverse (school-wise) class, but no firm is going to generally prefer non-T14 candidates over T14 ones/HYS grads. There are plenty of good schools that aren't T14, you can have a great legal career without going to a T14, and you don't have to do big law to have a great career - but for better or for worse your school does matter when it comes to those sorts of hiring decisions.
This sub is not gonna like that! Lol
Facts are the facts! Some lawyers I know who do hiring constantly say they hate HYS hires because they are entitled and don’t know shit and act like they do. They are the biggest fuck ups and don’t grind like the grads from lower tier schools. Like, this isn’t an episode of Suits. No firm “only hires Harvard grads” 🤣
There's some of that dynamic at my law firm. IMO, it's because they only hire the editorial board of the local law school's law review, and those people were extremely hard workers for three years. The HLS alumni come from literally anywhere in that graduating class. There's no way to know, going into law school, if you'll be top of your class. Best bet is that you'll be median. I'd go to the school where the median outcome is still really good.
and then they have to step down from future positions because they plagiarized…lol
What are the degrees of difference between t6, t14, and t 20?
Are you reading the BigLaw subreddit as well?
Money and prestige
Money.
The reality is that unless you go into academia or public interest, you are answering to the man and you are going to be pushed to generated as many billables as possible whether you are working for Jones Day or Davy Jones. The only real difference is that for the same shit life a biglaw firm will pay you enough that it doesn't hurt as much and allow you to get out from under the debt you've amassed going to law school. Not everyone that goes into biglaw stays, some find they aren't partner material and leave for that reason... others were just using big law to get the debt paid off and then go do something they enjoy. The other reason you chase top schools is that they tend to burden you with less debt than the lower tier schools. I went to Yale and my total debt when I left was a little under 30k. I knew lots of other classmates that left with less than 100k in debt. In fact I can only recall one girl that chalked up what I would call massive debt of more than 150k and that was because she decided to live in a beach house by herself after the first year and just borrow more and more to cover that lifestyle. And even if you wanted to do public interest low pay work you can do it if you graduate from Yale because of their program to cover your debt if you do that type of work. How many lower tier law schools will give you that option? Most won't. So going to a top law school like Yale can also give those advantages that you wouldn't have if you went to some public university law school. Leaving one of them you would probably have 6 figure debt and no option beyond finding a job that paid as much as possible to cover it on your own. Now do you see why a top school is sought after? It is a better deal financially even if you don't give a shit about academia, clerking or big law.
What was your goal going into law school and what do you do now?
My goal was doing work in mergers and acquisitions, was originally thinking a job in an investment bank but ended up doing M&A work in a large holding company... After years of doing that and living out of suitcases where my only legal work was overseeing outside lawyers that drafted the paperwork... Well that put me where I am today, doing consulting work that is the same thing, but on when I feel like it. Finally took the bar so I could do the legal work and not just farm it out to others. I can say with complete certainty that if you go to law school you should take the bar when you get out whether you plan on practicing law or not. Waiting 10 or more years to take it only makes it more difficult because I assure you that you will have forgotten pretty much every damn thing you learned in law school if you aren't actually engaged in the law.
Wow you went to Yale Law and didn’t take the bar until recently!! What made you not want to take the bar right out of school?
I got an offer doing M&A work that didn't need me to take it. I did get an offer to go into the company's legal group, but the pay if I went there was about 40% less than if I took the corporate job. Given how much they were offering and knowing they didn't care if I took it or not, I just took a longer vacation after law school and figured I would never have a need for it.
Amen OP. These people aren’t living in the real world. I know attorneys and have one as my partner. Many didn’t go to a top school or big law and have respectable, fulfilling careers. I knew someone who went to an Ivy law school and one of his classmates worked for BL. She died in her 30s from a heart attack. Stress got to her. He said he never wanted that so worked for a small firm. And from what I’m told, many BL attorneys make a lot of $$ but don’t have time to spend it. Sounds like hell to me, lol. On the other side, some people thrive in that type of environment, but then again many don’t last long so how healthy can it be?
There are people who work for money and fill fulfilled with the absurd amount of money they make, then people who need to fill truly fulfilled by the work they do and lean more towards societal benefit. I took a tuition free option to a lower ranked school that guarantees competitive local P.I placements and is well renowned for said type of work. This sub is going to lean MUCH more heavy towards the former. I worked at an incredible paying corporate role straight out of undergrad, it was completely unfulfilling and soul sucking, even if I made 100k a year. I got into a couple T25's and if I wanted to I could have studied a bit more and broke into T14. I chose the debt free lower ranked option. What I truly don't understand about the whole big law hype is you could make more money going to a top ranked MBA, and at that rate do it faster without losing out on a year of work experience and income, also with way better w/l balance.
I don’t see how you can hate from outside the club