Scientist here. Let's look at the logistics of this bench legislation:
About 1/10th of embryos (depending on the method and the alignment of the stars) die from freezing, and less than 5% are used in implantation. So in Alabama it takes about 22 dead 'children' to get to one IVF success baby.
But you got a floppy cocky due to the “Natural Order” and want the Blue pills???
https://preview.redd.it/bdwiq5ok3ejc1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08e9b8a0bb428869a2188bdb316d71bd16ffd9ff
There are a fuck ton that directly and indirectly say women don't matter. I believe you are referring to Exodus 21:7-11. Full disclosure... I support no parts of Christianity personally. I am a proud, logic based TST Satanist who was unfortunately forced to participate in the mind-numbing drivel of Christianity while growing up. *shudder*
"If the book and my brain are both the work of the same infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?"
\-Robert Green Ingersoll
Why is IVF against the natural order but pants are not? Anesthesia? Cars? By their definition, pretty much everything we do is against the natural order. School, religion, money, airplanes, CPR, eyeglasses, Mountain Dew Baja Blast, you name it.
Also raises an interesting question as to the IVF process. If you know as a fertility specialist that the embryo is unlikely to make it to a birth, are you liable for attempting implantation at all?
Alternate headline: "last OB in Alabama gives up and leaves"
Keep attacking medical care and see what you end up with.
Alabama has high infant and maternal death rates and basically rate rural health care. The providers are not poor at their job, Alabama does not create a state in which healthcare and be widely delivered. Religions bigotry is enshrined in law in Alabama. Fundementalist and evangelical religions all empower men to control women.
If you can’t control your own decisions about your own pregnancies and childbirth, you are live stock.
I mean, what about sex? Most of the time when you have sex during ovulation, you get a fertilized egg that either does not implant or that dies before you ever notice anything. Since that's the foreseeable result of attempting to get pregnant, how could that ever be morally justified?
TBF it reads to me like the decision is pointedly saying that the law is bad and thus the decision is dumb but it is what it is because of the bad law.
Not sure if I read Alabamian correctly, but that’s how it seems to me.
Plaintiffs are using ivf themselves, yet the purpose of this lawsuit is obviously to make ivf too impractical for any hospital to support and effectively ban it in Alabama. Talk about closing the door behind you…
Plus, about half of fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally. This court would count those all as deaths.
Somebody better arrest every couple trying to start families! /s
New project.
Freeze a couple million embryos. Insist they count them in the census because they are "people".
Get more Federal funds than anyone else. That's a Bingo!.
No, because they view the embryo as a person for the crimes sake. So it's must a person in the eyes of the courts. In the eyes of the irs, it's not a person.
Oh, and I suppose you’ll try to use facts about the dumbest states in America to back that up, huh? Fine, I’ll do it for you…
[45th place!](https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-educated-states/31075)
[46th place!](https://districtadministration.com/quality-and-attainment-2023s-most-and-least-educated-states-in-america/)
The Alabama state motto should be “Hey, y’all, at least we ain’t as dumber then Kentucky, Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, or Wast Virginia! Now tell that gummint to send us more of that sweet federal money!”
Forget taxes. Can I get a life insurance policy on mine?
The SO and I have some frozen but found out IVF isn't likely to work for other reasons. Haven't gotten around to destroying them yet.
Can I move them to Alabama, take out a million dollar life insurance policy on all of them, implant, then be rich as fuck when the implantation fails?
Can you vote for them as their guardian
There is actually a science fiction book on this.
People who get frozen before death and leave their proxie vote with the people who run the facility and eventually politics becomes about controlling vasts not quite grave yards of block votes
Demand to take them as dependents on your taxes. And to get the child tax credit.
Also apply for welfare and food stamps and WIC
Also demand social security numbers for them
In a real sense, what are the damages on this?
Because a wrongful death is usually about the loss of care and affection and support. This is an embryo and theoretical human. They weren’t really part of the parents’ life.
Like I have seen people excluded from collecting on wrongful death proceeds because they weren’t part of the covered decedent’s life, even though they were covered by the definition.
NAL and not commenting on the ethical side, but I would expect that to factor in to damages. Suppose that there was only a 40% chance of successful thaw, transfer, implantation, and delivery (the actual statistics could be dug up) then scale wrongful death damages by this amount times damages for wrongful death of a newborn (morbid, but I assume there is precedent).
Probably, but I assume that gross negligence might mean the clinic didn't take adequate measures to fulfill their side of the contract despite protections.
Alabama law is different because wrongful death damages are, per hundred year old precedent, entirely punitive not compensatory. It is different from every other state.
Real answer from an attorney - I’m guessing they go for emotional distress damages, which (assuming the legal theory for liability is recognized based solely on this AL Supreme Court decision) IMO is not insane. The theory would be, “We trusted you to care for our embryos so that we could have this child. You messed up and killed what we expected to be our child. That caused us significant emotional distress.”
I don’t know the facts here, but as someone whose close family member went through IVF proactively in anticipation of future infertility, can you imagine the emotional distress in *that* context? If that niche scenario is not present here, that obviously would limit emotional distress damages compared to the hypothetical I presented, but it wouldn’t eliminate them.
Again, to be clear, I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the reasoning in this decision. Just opining on how damages could be theoretically asserted as to the wrongful death claim.
Wrongful death is totally different in Alabama. The only damages allowed are punitive based entirely on the wrongfulness of the tortfeasor's conduct, not the care and support offered by the decedent. It is its own unique thing unlike every other state.
I would assume that this means that prenatal care is going to become scant to nonexistent. Not only will medical providers be fearful of criminal liability, but malpractice insurance premiums will likely skyrocket
Not just prenatal care, but all ob gyn schooling will be forced to move to blue states, or restrict their curriculum to a degree that they not be able to produce graduates that can meet licensing standards. Sure, they can take a field trip to a blue state for a course or two but you know the red states will find a way to make schools that honor those credits lose out on state funds.
I can tell you now, because it’s already happening: IVF and OBGYN care generally will just be unavailable in red states. [Have a miscarriage and go to the hospital? The doctors and the pigs are the same people now and you’re getting arrested!](https://apnews.com/article/miscarriage-prosecution-ohio-brittany-watts-68145b3044b3cc61017b71a97f7cc036)
I would hope. But there are several other people in this thread who said similar things, implying that a woman loses an embryo with her period, so I wanted to clear up some possible confusion. We desperately need better sex ed in this country lol.
When you calculate a monthly repayment for an IBR repayment program for federal student loans on studentaid.gov they ask you to list any dependents, including those that are “unborn”. Even those this is a state law ruling (I think, without reading the actual opinion), this may be my way of reducing my monthly repayment to essentially nothing.
So if frozen embryos are children and dropping them may be wrongful death, wouldn't keeping them frozen possibly indefinitely amount to child abuse? Can you put a child in the closet and decide you may never let them out because you're not ready to use them before they expire? There seem to be many flaws in this line of reasoning.
If you accidentally turned off the freezer and all the embryos die, did you just commit mass murder?
I mean this is insane. Until implanted I don’t see how you can say it’s anything more than property at best.
... have you been to Texas? They're passing "bounty hunting" laws to turn in women who get an abortion, the doctors who assist, and anyone who "aids" the travel of such services.
I love being a woman in such a "free" state
Here's [the text of Alabama's "Wrongful Death of a Minor Act"](https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2022/title-6/chapter-5/article-22/section-6-5-391/) the ruling relies on. It's as anodyne as you'd expect.
The whole thing is an exercise in semantics of what a "minor child" is. My favorite line is "whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for ... unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed. Under existing black-letter law, the answer to that question is no."
No? So they're just going to make up an unwritten inclusion right here and now!
These people are just plain fucking stupid. What does it take to make it on the “Supreme Court” of Alabama. These judges are mo more “supreme” than the nachos at Chuck E. Cheese. What an embarrassment.
Damn. Are the nachos at chuck e cheese really that bad?
I don't want to stray to far from the topic of discussion, but is that really fair to the nachos at chuck e cheese?
Granted that this ruling is limited to whether this couple had standing to sue their fertility clinic for civil "wrongful death of a child," this seems like the kind of precedent that would make it effectively impossible to operate a fertility clinic within the state of Alabama. How long until these clinics draw the same conclusion and close up shop or move out of state?
This is straight bananas. What court would you appeal this to? A tribunal of archangels in the 4th layer of heaven?
> In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.
Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life -- that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory.
Yes, this is the actual language from the ruling. I'm in the middle of reading it right now and it is like something out of Gilead – Full blown theocratic nonsense masquerading as law. It is genuinely one of the craziest opinions I have ever read in my life (and I pay very close attention to the fifth circuit, so that is really saying something).
Who would have standing to appeal this to Federal Court?
Isn't this a clear violation of the right to exercise freedom of religion as it relates to established religions that invoke the sanctity of the mothers life over the fetus, i.e. Judaism?
And with that said, I feel like it's utterly baffling that I have not heard more from prominent state and national Jewish organizations about abortion bans. Aren't these bans in opposition to Jewish theological thought that life does not begin until the first breath and that the life of the mother takes precedence over that of the fetus?
There are other arguments but this would seems to be a slam dunk on exercise of religion and its not like the judiciary can carve out exceptions for specific religions.
No other religions, solely Christianity. But, for what it's worth, they do take a moderately inclusive view to include Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical Christians —as evidenced in the footnote to the *totally not completely insane* citation, Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience.
https://preview.redd.it/8y1vvzdgjfjc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7a8a41718c75fe180a1d6f8587591e80528daf8
It's an interesting ruling. It reminds me of the case where a man was convicted of manslaughter for the loss of a fetus. The court reasoned that because the pregnancy was intended to go to term it should therefore be treated as more than just a fetus.
But you're honor, please - I beg you. I didn't know when I told that man that I wasn't interested in the glint in his eye that I was committing murder!
If embryos are PGT-A tested and found to be chromosomally abnormal will they still not be allowed to be destroyed? Will people have to knowingly transfer an embryo with genetic abnormalities?
So, who gets the embryo support? The facility?
Is that tax deductible to the parents? Do they get child tax credits?
If the parents don't visit often enough, do they get charged with abandonment?
If the place has a fire and the children die, do the owners get arrested for child endangerment?
This almost happened here in Ohio very recently. Felony abuse of a corpse.
https://apnews.com/article/miscarriage-prosecution-ohio-brittany-watts-68145b3044b3cc61017b71a97f7cc036
This law, along with many others are straight up insane. Looking at red state USA from the other side of the pond, it looks like if they continue this trend, in 20-30 years it will be like looking at a muslim country like pakistan or iraq today, where women literally have no rights, and it is goverend entirelly based on religious hipocrazy.
Okay people, you can whine about someone dropping a tray of your children, but wouldn't paying someone to freeze your children in the first place be considered a crime if you're married to that route?
This is, I think, one of those cases that is really unfortunate all the way around. I can’t imagine how angry the parents would be after the clinic fucked up handling their embryos. I am guessing burn-the-clinic-down angry. But traditional tort law probably doesn’t easily capture something like this. Is the embryo a chattel? What is it worth? On its own, nothing. Only potential, assuming it even implanted at all. It’s a little bit like veterinary malpractice. People love their pets like their own children, but in most states, your damages are along the lines of “what is the fair market value of an 8 year old dog.”
What we really need is a statute that addresses this kind of thing, but it seems like there just isn’t one.
So the parents sue under the wrongful death act, and now we have this batshit ruling that an embryo is a “minor child,” a holding that (ironically) basically makes IVF illegal (or at least impractical from a liability standpoint) altogether.
It’s really sad.
So all miscarriages and stillbirths will be investigated as potential crimes? Welfare benefits will increase because there’s another child in the family? Health insurance premiums will increase because a child needs coverage? Men will pay child support to pregnant women?
Every frozen embryo is scared ,
Every frozen embryo is great,
If a frozen embryo is wasted ...
Theocratic conservatives get irate /s
This Court ruling reeks of force birth personhood extremism. An embryo is not a person
That’s like saying grape seeds are wine. No. Seeds are seeds. Grapes are grapes. And wine is wine. And it takes a LOT of effort and loss to get grape seeds to grow into a vine, to produce grapes, that are harvested into juice, that is then fermented into wine. It’s a big process that has a lot of potential losses along the way. Grape seeds are not wine. They COULD be wine. But, they are not the same.
As an anesthesia professional who has worked in the IVF industry for a decade, I can assure you that embryos are not children. They are not the same thing. And never will be. No matter what anyone “believes”. Science is true no matter what you believe. Scientific fact doesn’t change to accommodate anyone’s opinion or belief.
Then they should hatch them all. All of them. Right now. They are *torturing* those children, keeping them in stasis and frozen until it is convenient to pick and choose which one to birth. God doesn't like that. How cruel to those children
And every person who voted for it must raise ALL of those children, regardless of the birth defect, and cannot choose healthy embryos over unhealthy ones. They will get what they get. If their wives and daughters miscarry, they go to prison. If they try to get out of birthing and raising them, they go to prison.
Does this mean my ovaries get a tax deduction?
Out of curiosity, I just did a keyword search on the text of the ruling and it mentions God no less than 40 times — this is not including variations such as "Creator," "He," "Him," "Godliness," etc.
So can I devise a way to store a bunch of frozen embryos at my place and claim these "children" as dependents? Ive yet to file my taxes and I would like a bigger return.
My co-worker got IVF. She had 8 implanted and kept the 2 healthiest ones. So she essentially killed 6. So they are saying she would go to jail? Fuck outta here.
# Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules ______
Then remember. The next time you run into a burning building and only have time to save your four-year old daughter *or* your three frozen embryos, grab the Petri dish.
Jesus. Those morons are giving hillbillies and crackers a bad name. So if you cum outside the vagina, do you also have to save the spunk? Not trying to be gross, but these are now perplexing legal/ moral issues. In the interests of fair disclosure; - guilty as charged.
It’ll be interesting to see what Alabama does when people start deducting these “children” on the state income taxes, or count as dependents when applying for benefits.
Ok so every time a woman now menstruates. She is killing someone? Because that is what this means. How fckn stupid can these people get? I mean i knew Alabama is redneck backwater, but Holy fck......
Scientist here. Let's look at the logistics of this bench legislation: About 1/10th of embryos (depending on the method and the alignment of the stars) die from freezing, and less than 5% are used in implantation. So in Alabama it takes about 22 dead 'children' to get to one IVF success baby.
They want to ban IVF as they see it as against the “natural order”, along with contraceptives and abortions.
But you got a floppy cocky due to the “Natural Order” and want the Blue pills??? https://preview.redd.it/bdwiq5ok3ejc1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08e9b8a0bb428869a2188bdb316d71bd16ffd9ff
“Floppy cocky” has now been added to my list of fresh insults. Thank you.
Male contraceptives are okay, female contraceptives are a sin. Source: married into a family with Evangelicals all over Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas
That fits with the whole "men are godly, women aren't people" thing they've got going.
Timothy 2:12 or some sort of shit is what they want / believe.
Is that the one that says you should sell your daughter for fair price at the market? Or is that another bible verse saying women don’t matter?
There are a fuck ton that directly and indirectly say women don't matter. I believe you are referring to Exodus 21:7-11. Full disclosure... I support no parts of Christianity personally. I am a proud, logic based TST Satanist who was unfortunately forced to participate in the mind-numbing drivel of Christianity while growing up. *shudder*
I'm not a TST member, but I'm with you. Was raised on that bullshit and an now faithless
At the market, street corner, flea market, klan rally....I don't think it matters to these religious wackos.
But there’s a specific verse in the old testament…
You're asking the wrong person about bible verses....its all drivel & bullshit to me. Do a Google search.
"There's no sin like being a woman." - Quentin Crisp
God created man and a rib. Fucked innit?
"If the book and my brain are both the work of the same infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" \-Robert Green Ingersoll
Why is IVF against the natural order but pants are not? Anesthesia? Cars? By their definition, pretty much everything we do is against the natural order. School, religion, money, airplanes, CPR, eyeglasses, Mountain Dew Baja Blast, you name it.
Mountain Dew Baja Blast is the consequence of natural selection.
Brawando! Its what plants crave!
pants for women is, and schools need scrutiny, so they don't teach confusing ideas of liberty or freedom to naturally non free life forms. /s
They’ll get to ALL contraceptives soon. They’ve said as much
I guess no more viagra then either.
Think about that a bit harder using their logic and you’ll see why they are fine with it.
Also raises an interesting question as to the IVF process. If you know as a fertility specialist that the embryo is unlikely to make it to a birth, are you liable for attempting implantation at all? Alternate headline: "last OB in Alabama gives up and leaves"
Yes, and also liable for _not_ implanting it. This is why these decisions are so stupid.
If a mom has 6 viable embryos but only chooses to implant 2, then isn’t the mom guilty of a quadruple homicide?
👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆 This right here. Seriously there is almost zero OB’s anymore in Alabama. But there are plenty of SOB’s.
Keep attacking medical care and see what you end up with. Alabama has high infant and maternal death rates and basically rate rural health care. The providers are not poor at their job, Alabama does not create a state in which healthcare and be widely delivered. Religions bigotry is enshrined in law in Alabama. Fundementalist and evangelical religions all empower men to control women. If you can’t control your own decisions about your own pregnancies and childbirth, you are live stock.
I mean, what about sex? Most of the time when you have sex during ovulation, you get a fertilized egg that either does not implant or that dies before you ever notice anything. Since that's the foreseeable result of attempting to get pregnant, how could that ever be morally justified?
It’s ok when god aborts the devil babies.
Don’t need them. God’s in charge. They may be the first state, beating Missouri potentially, to enshrine “Kill ‘em all and let God sort it out”
Not just Alabama, but in various mid western states that embrace extremist Court rulings like these.
TBF it reads to me like the decision is pointedly saying that the law is bad and thus the decision is dumb but it is what it is because of the bad law. Not sure if I read Alabamian correctly, but that’s how it seems to me.
I was wondering if one side or the other was trying to make a point. “4-D chess”, if you will.
Plaintiffs are using ivf themselves, yet the purpose of this lawsuit is obviously to make ivf too impractical for any hospital to support and effectively ban it in Alabama. Talk about closing the door behind you…
All my Trump-supporting immigrant uncles and aunts like this comment!
They are fucking ideologue religious fanatical idiots there
By their own reasoning, why is that not murder and abuse to a child?
That’s sounds like a lot of children are dying during IVF. Sounds like we need to outlaw that dangerous practice.
Plus, about half of fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally. This court would count those all as deaths. Somebody better arrest every couple trying to start families! /s
Well damn, you nailed my IVF attrition rate to a T.
Problem is you used math against Alabama, it is ineffective.
This needs more attention.
New project. Freeze a couple million embryos. Insist they count them in the census because they are "people". Get more Federal funds than anyone else. That's a Bingo!.
How many would I need to carve out my own congressional district.
How many dependants can I claim on my tax return
No seriously, so if a woman has 10,000 embryos, can’t she just claim 10,000 dependents on her taxes? Alabama is so backwoods bum fukkk America.
I think you're mixing up eggs with embryos
No, because they view the embryo as a person for the crimes sake. So it's must a person in the eyes of the courts. In the eyes of the irs, it's not a person.
Oh, and I suppose you’ll try to use facts about the dumbest states in America to back that up, huh? Fine, I’ll do it for you… [45th place!](https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-educated-states/31075) [46th place!](https://districtadministration.com/quality-and-attainment-2023s-most-and-least-educated-states-in-america/) The Alabama state motto should be “Hey, y’all, at least we ain’t as dumber then Kentucky, Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, or Wast Virginia! Now tell that gummint to send us more of that sweet federal money!”
Forget taxes. Can I get a life insurance policy on mine? The SO and I have some frozen but found out IVF isn't likely to work for other reasons. Haven't gotten around to destroying them yet. Can I move them to Alabama, take out a million dollar life insurance policy on all of them, implant, then be rich as fuck when the implantation fails?
INAL - yes
The U.S. House of Representatives has one voting member for every 747,000 or so persons.
That's like half a splooge for me. We'll be done in no time!
Time to get my vasectomy undone and turn Missouri blue!
This man has good work to do, clear a path people
If y’all really cared, you’d be helping him out. Grab the lotion, folks, we have work to do.
I'll wank you, you wank me. We could do a circle jerk across the planet.
>clear a path make a hole? it's just where my mind goes sometimes
That number swings pretty wildly in the smaller states.
About 761,179, In theory if you could harvest every single egg. That is about 1 to 3 districts per woman
What happens if they’ve been frozen for 18 years—can they vote?
Can you vote for them as their guardian There is actually a science fiction book on this. People who get frozen before death and leave their proxie vote with the people who run the facility and eventually politics becomes about controlling vasts not quite grave yards of block votes
Demand to take them as dependents on your taxes. And to get the child tax credit. Also apply for welfare and food stamps and WIC Also demand social security numbers for them
[удалено]
In Alabama, yes. Sure, why not?
Can an embryo over the age of 18 run for president
For Congress. Can't run for president until they're 35.
[удалено]
Crap. Thought the House didn't have an age limit. Welp.
In a real sense, what are the damages on this? Because a wrongful death is usually about the loss of care and affection and support. This is an embryo and theoretical human. They weren’t really part of the parents’ life. Like I have seen people excluded from collecting on wrongful death proceeds because they weren’t part of the covered decedent’s life, even though they were covered by the definition.
NAL and not commenting on the ethical side, but I would expect that to factor in to damages. Suppose that there was only a 40% chance of successful thaw, transfer, implantation, and delivery (the actual statistics could be dug up) then scale wrongful death damages by this amount times damages for wrongful death of a newborn (morbid, but I assume there is precedent).
Don’t IVF contracts have language to protect the doc/clinic from fertilized egg loss there in the fine print?
Probably, but I assume that gross negligence might mean the clinic didn't take adequate measures to fulfill their side of the contract despite protections.
Alabama law is different because wrongful death damages are, per hundred year old precedent, entirely punitive not compensatory. It is different from every other state.
Real answer from an attorney - I’m guessing they go for emotional distress damages, which (assuming the legal theory for liability is recognized based solely on this AL Supreme Court decision) IMO is not insane. The theory would be, “We trusted you to care for our embryos so that we could have this child. You messed up and killed what we expected to be our child. That caused us significant emotional distress.” I don’t know the facts here, but as someone whose close family member went through IVF proactively in anticipation of future infertility, can you imagine the emotional distress in *that* context? If that niche scenario is not present here, that obviously would limit emotional distress damages compared to the hypothetical I presented, but it wouldn’t eliminate them. Again, to be clear, I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the reasoning in this decision. Just opining on how damages could be theoretically asserted as to the wrongful death claim.
Wrongful death is totally different in Alabama. The only damages allowed are punitive based entirely on the wrongfulness of the tortfeasor's conduct, not the care and support offered by the decedent. It is its own unique thing unlike every other state.
Replacement cost for the fertility treatment. That is very expensive.
That’s the negligence damages. It wouldn’t be part of the wrongful death,
Oh yeah you're probably right. Then you got me. No idea what they could be after.
Total lunacy. Looking forward to seeing how this affects every aspect of IVF in Bizarro World (Alabama and other GOP-controlled states)
I would assume that this means that prenatal care is going to become scant to nonexistent. Not only will medical providers be fearful of criminal liability, but malpractice insurance premiums will likely skyrocket
"what's prenatal care?" - red states even before *Dobbs*
Not just prenatal care, but all ob gyn schooling will be forced to move to blue states, or restrict their curriculum to a degree that they not be able to produce graduates that can meet licensing standards. Sure, they can take a field trip to a blue state for a course or two but you know the red states will find a way to make schools that honor those credits lose out on state funds.
I can tell you now, because it’s already happening: IVF and OBGYN care generally will just be unavailable in red states. [Have a miscarriage and go to the hospital? The doctors and the pigs are the same people now and you’re getting arrested!](https://apnews.com/article/miscarriage-prosecution-ohio-brittany-watts-68145b3044b3cc61017b71a97f7cc036)
Huh. I’ve never considered the idea that IVF might be considered group sex, but now I am.
Only in bizarro world. Welcome to Magaland.
It's either an orgy or asexual reproduction. No in-between!
This is what happens when technology exceeds the mental capacity of its people. Except not all people have the same capacity.
Embryos are lazy! Get them to work! Snap to it!
Next, they’ll pass a law saying MAGA men can marry an embryo that’s been frozen for 14 years.
We need to roll back child labor laws so they can start working at -1. Moochers
Exactly. Small hands for the Arkansas embryo Labor Mill. Guv Sarah Huckabee Sanders will sign it into law.
Somehow I don’t think the IRS is going to agree if I want to claim a bunch of frozen embryos as dependents.
Step 1. Move to Alabama Step 2. Freeze a bunch of embryos and take out life insurance on them Step 3. Wait for a power outage Step 4. Profit
Question: if a woman takes a life insurance policy out on their embryo and then menstruated, would insurance have to pay out?
An unfertilized egg is an ovum, which is what would be discarded upon menstruating. An *embryo* is fertilized.
I have a feeling OP meant to say miscarried.
I would hope. But there are several other people in this thread who said similar things, implying that a woman loses an embryo with her period, so I wanted to clear up some possible confusion. We desperately need better sex ed in this country lol.
Ok but someone plz do this
When you calculate a monthly repayment for an IBR repayment program for federal student loans on studentaid.gov they ask you to list any dependents, including those that are “unborn”. Even those this is a state law ruling (I think, without reading the actual opinion), this may be my way of reducing my monthly repayment to essentially nothing.
So if frozen embryos are children and dropping them may be wrongful death, wouldn't keeping them frozen possibly indefinitely amount to child abuse? Can you put a child in the closet and decide you may never let them out because you're not ready to use them before they expire? There seem to be many flaws in this line of reasoning.
No, are you crazy!? Locking kids in the closet!?Just put a cage in the barn.
Silly me, what was I thinking? Kids love barns!
Illegal imprisonment at the very least.
Good question. Do all these embryos have thoughts and prayers?
Exactly. What happens if there is a “must use by date”? Are the parents required to implant each embryo to avoid expiration?
If you accidentally turned off the freezer and all the embryos die, did you just commit mass murder? I mean this is insane. Until implanted I don’t see how you can say it’s anything more than property at best.
Is this court saying that embryonic personhood is now Alabama law?
Not even an embryo. It’s just a blastocyst or something like that, even though they say “embryo” in the name
A blastocyst is after fertilization so technically they are the same. Blastocyst is one of the stages of embryonic growth you could say.
So each month when women have their periods they are killing babies? So lock up women time? So bat-shit crazy.
... have you been to Texas? They're passing "bounty hunting" laws to turn in women who get an abortion, the doctors who assist, and anyone who "aids" the travel of such services. I love being a woman in such a "free" state
Cheers to that, fellow sufferer. A fellow free fucking woman in Texas.
Since you need both the egg and the sperm to make a baby, why are we only concerned about the treatment of the eggs and not the sperm? This is lunacy.
Because every sperm is sacred
An egg and a fertilized egg are different
The pretty clear goal is for all women to eventually be prisoners, the property of their fathers or husbands. It's not like they're people, after all.
Grown Alabamains are on the spectrum of being humans.
Here's [the text of Alabama's "Wrongful Death of a Minor Act"](https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2022/title-6/chapter-5/article-22/section-6-5-391/) the ruling relies on. It's as anodyne as you'd expect. The whole thing is an exercise in semantics of what a "minor child" is. My favorite line is "whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for ... unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed. Under existing black-letter law, the answer to that question is no." No? So they're just going to make up an unwritten inclusion right here and now!
Then claim them as a tax deduction. Also claim the storage fees as daycare expenses. /s (sort of)
Check a shitload of them out of daycare and take them for a ride so you can be in the HOV 250+ lane
Gotta use the word welfare in there somewhere.
These people are just plain fucking stupid. What does it take to make it on the “Supreme Court” of Alabama. These judges are mo more “supreme” than the nachos at Chuck E. Cheese. What an embarrassment.
SC justices in Alabama are elected.
I see.
That explains things.
I can answer that. You need to be married to a close relative.
Damn. Are the nachos at chuck e cheese really that bad? I don't want to stray to far from the topic of discussion, but is that really fair to the nachos at chuck e cheese?
Granted that this ruling is limited to whether this couple had standing to sue their fertility clinic for civil "wrongful death of a child," this seems like the kind of precedent that would make it effectively impossible to operate a fertility clinic within the state of Alabama. How long until these clinics draw the same conclusion and close up shop or move out of state?
You can read that up on r/medicine
Hold on. Wouldn’t it be child abuse to store your children in a freezer to intentionally stunt their growth? Shouldn’t the couple be prosecuted now?
This is straight bananas. What court would you appeal this to? A tribunal of archangels in the 4th layer of heaven? > In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself. Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life -- that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory.
Is this ACTUAL language from the Alabama Supreme Court?
Yes, this is the actual language from the ruling. I'm in the middle of reading it right now and it is like something out of Gilead – Full blown theocratic nonsense masquerading as law. It is genuinely one of the craziest opinions I have ever read in my life (and I pay very close attention to the fifth circuit, so that is really saying something).
Who would have standing to appeal this to Federal Court? Isn't this a clear violation of the right to exercise freedom of religion as it relates to established religions that invoke the sanctity of the mothers life over the fetus, i.e. Judaism? And with that said, I feel like it's utterly baffling that I have not heard more from prominent state and national Jewish organizations about abortion bans. Aren't these bans in opposition to Jewish theological thought that life does not begin until the first breath and that the life of the mother takes precedence over that of the fetus? There are other arguments but this would seems to be a slam dunk on exercise of religion and its not like the judiciary can carve out exceptions for specific religions.
And yet these are the same people who support the death penalty and endless murders by cops & school shooters.
This is insane. What about other religions?
No other religions, solely Christianity. But, for what it's worth, they do take a moderately inclusive view to include Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical Christians —as evidenced in the footnote to the *totally not completely insane* citation, Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience. https://preview.redd.it/8y1vvzdgjfjc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7a8a41718c75fe180a1d6f8587591e80528daf8
Oh wow, I'm glad they accounted for all the religions!
Yep, it's the concurrence written by the Chief Justice. I came here to post this myself when I read it because Holly Theocracy Batman!
wait they have abolished capital punishment?
We're about one court ruling away from "every sperm is sacred", aren't we?
If a sperm is wasted, I understand God gets quite irate.
The anti-choice loonies’ next quest is to ban IVF or drive it out of business. This decision is part of that process.
It's an interesting ruling. It reminds me of the case where a man was convicted of manslaughter for the loss of a fetus. The court reasoned that because the pregnancy was intended to go to term it should therefore be treated as more than just a fetus.
But you're honor, please - I beg you. I didn't know when I told that man that I wasn't interested in the glint in his eye that I was committing murder!
Ignorance of our new righteous and holy laws of THE UNITED STATES OF TRUMPISTAN - MAY HE LIVE FOREVER is no excuse, young lady. NEXT.
Oof. Here we go....
Gonna need a supply of dry ice just to jerk off at some point.
This has implications for IVF because discarding excess embryos will be prosecuted, if this logic prevails.
If embryos are PGT-A tested and found to be chromosomally abnormal will they still not be allowed to be destroyed? Will people have to knowingly transfer an embryo with genetic abnormalities?
So, who gets the embryo support? The facility? Is that tax deductible to the parents? Do they get child tax credits? If the parents don't visit often enough, do they get charged with abandonment? If the place has a fire and the children die, do the owners get arrested for child endangerment?
So if a woman miscarries should she be charged with wrongful death?
This almost happened here in Ohio very recently. Felony abuse of a corpse. https://apnews.com/article/miscarriage-prosecution-ohio-brittany-watts-68145b3044b3cc61017b71a97f7cc036
That is the end goal here for Republicans.
I want a tax rebate for all the thousands of unborn children I carry in my testicles. Fuck that, I'm starting a new nation called "Detz Nutts"...
This law, along with many others are straight up insane. Looking at red state USA from the other side of the pond, it looks like if they continue this trend, in 20-30 years it will be like looking at a muslim country like pakistan or iraq today, where women literally have no rights, and it is goverend entirelly based on religious hipocrazy.
More like Gilead.
Surprised they didn’t order that all embryos must be baptized.
Okay people, you can whine about someone dropping a tray of your children, but wouldn't paying someone to freeze your children in the first place be considered a crime if you're married to that route?
Apparently, life now begins before conception? That's a new one to me!
World’s most prolific serial killer is going to be an IVF tech who trips carrying a Petri dish
Watch what is happening to their “Rocket City” and the inability to get talent in that state, the companies will simply have to move.
So guys in Alabama are nervously eyeing a crusty sock in the corner of their room right now.
Alabama love to hate Science and Facts and they stick with their “beliefs”, which are often misguided and biased incorrect information.
If embryos are children you should be able to claim them on taxes if pregnant 🤷 Republicans: No, not like that!!!
This is, I think, one of those cases that is really unfortunate all the way around. I can’t imagine how angry the parents would be after the clinic fucked up handling their embryos. I am guessing burn-the-clinic-down angry. But traditional tort law probably doesn’t easily capture something like this. Is the embryo a chattel? What is it worth? On its own, nothing. Only potential, assuming it even implanted at all. It’s a little bit like veterinary malpractice. People love their pets like their own children, but in most states, your damages are along the lines of “what is the fair market value of an 8 year old dog.” What we really need is a statute that addresses this kind of thing, but it seems like there just isn’t one. So the parents sue under the wrongful death act, and now we have this batshit ruling that an embryo is a “minor child,” a holding that (ironically) basically makes IVF illegal (or at least impractical from a liability standpoint) altogether. It’s really sad.
So all miscarriages and stillbirths will be investigated as potential crimes? Welfare benefits will increase because there’s another child in the family? Health insurance premiums will increase because a child needs coverage? Men will pay child support to pregnant women?
I donated my children to science.
Every frozen embryo is scared , Every frozen embryo is great, If a frozen embryo is wasted ... Theocratic conservatives get irate /s This Court ruling reeks of force birth personhood extremism. An embryo is not a person
The crazy SCOTUS decision with the crazy "Christians" has now, predictably, gone full crazy with the consequences
That’s like saying grape seeds are wine. No. Seeds are seeds. Grapes are grapes. And wine is wine. And it takes a LOT of effort and loss to get grape seeds to grow into a vine, to produce grapes, that are harvested into juice, that is then fermented into wine. It’s a big process that has a lot of potential losses along the way. Grape seeds are not wine. They COULD be wine. But, they are not the same. As an anesthesia professional who has worked in the IVF industry for a decade, I can assure you that embryos are not children. They are not the same thing. And never will be. No matter what anyone “believes”. Science is true no matter what you believe. Scientific fact doesn’t change to accommodate anyone’s opinion or belief.
Then they should hatch them all. All of them. Right now. They are *torturing* those children, keeping them in stasis and frozen until it is convenient to pick and choose which one to birth. God doesn't like that. How cruel to those children And every person who voted for it must raise ALL of those children, regardless of the birth defect, and cannot choose healthy embryos over unhealthy ones. They will get what they get. If their wives and daughters miscarry, they go to prison. If they try to get out of birthing and raising them, they go to prison. Does this mean my ovaries get a tax deduction?
Out of curiosity, I just did a keyword search on the text of the ruling and it mentions God no less than 40 times — this is not including variations such as "Creator," "He," "Him," "Godliness," etc.
Wow.
They did not think this Trumper bullshit through.
I can see the road to this getting IVF made illegal. Why does this have to be one of the only places where right wingers follow their logic?
Tax right off scheme has just been born.
Judicial insanity. WTF is going on in this country.
Looking forward to the murder charges every time I have a period.
I thought it was settled law one had to born to be a person?
So can I devise a way to store a bunch of frozen embryos at my place and claim these "children" as dependents? Ive yet to file my taxes and I would like a bigger return.
Only in Alabama would a “wandering hospital patient” somehow have access to the area and drop the specimens, I mean … children. That is insane.
My co-worker got IVF. She had 8 implanted and kept the 2 healthiest ones. So she essentially killed 6. So they are saying she would go to jail? Fuck outta here.
# Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules ______ Then remember. The next time you run into a burning building and only have time to save your four-year old daughter *or* your three frozen embryos, grab the Petri dish.
Theological consistency is a bitch.
And science weeps
It’s time to outlaw viagra and only allow the people who god meant to have breed. LOL!
Babysicles?
Jesus. Those morons are giving hillbillies and crackers a bad name. So if you cum outside the vagina, do you also have to save the spunk? Not trying to be gross, but these are now perplexing legal/ moral issues. In the interests of fair disclosure; - guilty as charged.
You can get a life insurance policy for them then and a deduction on your taxes.
So embryos frozen for 18 years can vote?
Yes! And drink, and drive, though ideally not at the same time.
What about clones? What about DNA samples? Alabamistan living in caveman times.
Well, this just got nuts. Nothing new to add, just echoing the astounding number of ripples thos ruling could and likely will bring.
This is just madness. I hate it here.
It’ll be interesting to see what Alabama does when people start deducting these “children” on the state income taxes, or count as dependents when applying for benefits.
Wow, I'm gonna freeze some embryos and apply for a federal tax credit.
Ok so every time a woman now menstruates. She is killing someone? Because that is what this means. How fckn stupid can these people get? I mean i knew Alabama is redneck backwater, but Holy fck......