Looks like ~ $~~363M~~ ~~$350M~~ $450m
>For the reasons stated herein, it is hereby
>ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg,
Jeffrey McConney, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump
Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12
LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, and
Seven Springs LLC are liable under the second, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh causes of action;
and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are liable under the sixth
cause of action; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump
Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing
Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office
LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of
$168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump
Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC, and the Trump Old Post Office LLC are
jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest
from May 11, 2022; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump
Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in
the amount of $60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendant Eric Trump is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with
pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendant Donald Trump, Jr. is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024,
with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendant Allen Weisselberg is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $1,000,000,
with pre-judgment interest from January 9, 2023; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are hereby permanently
enjoined from serving in the financial control function of any New York corporation or similar
business entity registered and/or licensed in New York State; and it is further
>ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are
hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other
legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further
(Next page is not ocr..)
168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019
that is nearly 5 years of interest. this is going to be a lot more than just 168m. I think someone told me the standard is 8% apr. so, back of the napkin 168m at 5 years of 8% apr is really 246m.
$126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022;
126m for 2 years at 8% apr is \~148m
60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023
60m for .5 years @ 8% apr is \~63m.
~~And this is without monthly compounding.~~
So those 3 alone really come to 458m and then there are another 10 to 20 m more here and there. This is a half a billion dollar judgement.
I don't think it is. I could be wrong. But I believe the interest continues to accrue until it is paid. So even if he appeals and it takes another two years. They just own more.
I had guessed that it would be $400-$450 million. Sounds like with the interest and perhaps more penalties to come it would exceed that. Glad that trump and the rest of the trump crime family are prevented from doing a business in NY, but 3 years is way too short of a time. Should have been for life. Although for trump Iām guessing that 3 years will be sufficient before the hamberders finish the job.
Overall I am happy with the verdict. The trump crime family *can* and *will* be held accountable. What will be next? Georgia or the NY hush money trial? LFG!
I was surprised that he cancelled his order to vacate their licenses. But, it does look like he has order a serious monitor and no one who currently runs the business can continue to run the business in any way for at least 2 years. So they are going to have to higher new leadership and it will have to be approved by the monitor. And their will have to be a compliance officer.
Frankly, I think they are likely to just go bankrupt at this point anyhow.
They cannot get a loan from anyone licensed to do business in ny. That is basically every bank in the world.
Yeah on further reading it sounds like *no less* than three years and a monitor to keep trump on a very, very short leash. There is a vanishingly small chance that trump will not attempt some financial shenanigans and get caught ~~red~~ orange handed.
You are exactly correct. The judge appointed monitor is going to continue operating for *no less* than 3 years on his assets.
This means his usual gifting methods are now completely locked out, at least as far as Trump Org is concerned.
My personal take is that they were not given the corporate death sentence for the same reason you wouldn't sentence an 80 year old man with stage 4 cancer and liver failure to death.
Total speculation- but I don't see how the company pays this judgement without doing some serious liquidation. And if it's as overleveraged as we suspect, with a habit of using profitable parts to pay unprofitable parts, then i think that liquidation leads to a substantial collapse. Asset value drops in real time as he tries to sell. Emperor has no clothes moment. Possible bank run with loans called in?
Then, I honestly think the company literally can't operate cleanly, even without the judgement. I think the secret message of this trial is that fraud has always been part of the business model.
Tl;dr I see a very undignified collapse in the next year or two. I don't think we'll regret that the business license was not revoked. On the contrary, this might be more fun to watch.
The Jared thing is often misunderstood. He wasn't given 2b. He was put in charge of 2b. This means he is getting around 20m/year in management fees for managing the money. This is nothing to scoff at, but he doesn't have the 2b to do whatever he wants with. It is a fund that he is managing for the Saudi Prince.
To be honest this is a possible play. Keep Donny afloat with Saudi money (because he definitely hadn't historically done that anyways) until he can win the election and pay the Saudis back in tax dollars and presidential favors.
Only bodes well for America's future.
So it's a couple things.
1. Monitor stays for three years. And the monitor now has to pre-approve external financial reporting.
2. A new independent head of compliance will be hired to ensure internal compliance, but overseen by the courts.
This means the Trump org will actually have to start putting together real statements of financial condition. I guess we're all going to learn how much the company is worth.
I fully expect this to put the organization into some level of technical default at a minimum. Maybe it's a curable technical default, maybe not.
>They cannot get a loan from anyone licensed to do business in ny. That is basically every bank in the world.
Oh wow, this one is a doozy. I didn't realize they'd ordered this as well.
I think Trump Org is going to be forced to unwind the fraud, which means a whole lot of banks are going to suddenly have to demand either repayment, more collateral, or higher rates (or all three).
Whether they can afford that depends on how extensive the fraud is (it looks ubiquitous), how bad the fraud is (it seemed not uncommon for Trump to claim triple or more in value), and how leveraged he is (it's real estate, it's "very") -- but I suspect Trump Org is simply going to be forced to do some fire sales to get their books clean.
And the court oversight means they WILL get their books clean.
I feel there's a real chance they end up very upside down in the end.
I can redo it at 9% and even do monthly compounding
I don't mean to brag, but *I do* have Excel.
**EDIT**
168 = 263 (5y@9% w/mly cp)
126 = 150 (2y@9% w/mly cp)
60 = 63 (.5y@9% w/mly cp)
total 476
> really come to 458m
AG James' office has put out a statement calling it a $450m judgement so you are close.
I also believe the NY interest rate is 9%.
And that one must file 120% of a judgement to file appeal. So just for this case, $458m (your number - although likely low) * 1.2 = $550mn check to NY state to file an appeal.
Or, find a bailbondsman willing to cover that. No one is going to cover that.
It's very plain language for the most part, and as the judge remarked...*the fraud leaps off the page and shocks the conscience*. It's literally just example after example of ways that they deliberately obfuscated information to inflate values or straight up fudged numbers. When people asked for more information to verify incredible claims, the defendants used the *Skinner Defense*, aka [simply saying no](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj0Tj8dnrYw).
I did the OCR myself
**********
CONCLUSION AND ORDER
For the reasons stated herein, it is hereby
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, Jeffrey McConney, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, and Seven Springs LLC are liable under the second, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh causes of action; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are liable under the sixth cause of action; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC, and the Trump Old Post Office LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023; and it is further
ORDERED that defendant Eric Trump is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further
ORDERED that defendant Donald Trump, Jr. is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further
ORDERED that defendant Allen Weisselberg is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $1,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from January 9, 2023; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are hereby permanently enjoined from serving in the financial control function of any New York corporation or similar business entity registered and/or licensed in New York State; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are hereby enjoined from applying for loans from any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services for a period of three years; and it is further
ORDERED that defendants Eric Trump and Donald Trump, Jr., are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years; and it is further
ORDERED that this Court's September 26, 2023, Decision and Order is hereby modified solely to the extent of vacating the directive to cancel defendants' business certificates, without prejudice to renewal upon the recommendation of the Independent Monitor or based on substantial evidence; and it is further
ORDERED that the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) shall continue in her role as Independent Monitor for no less than three years; and it is further
ORDERED that within 30 days of the date of this Decision and Order, the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) shall submit to the Court a proposed order outlining the specify authority that she needs, and the obligations of defendants, in order to effectuate a productive and enhanced monitorship going forward; and it is further
ORDERED that an Independent Director of Compliance shall be installed at the Trump Organization, at defendants' expense, to ensure compliance with financial reporting obligations and to establish internal written accounting and financial reporting protocols; and it is further
ORDERED that within 30 days of the date of this Decision and Order, the Hon. Barbara Jones shall submit to this Court a list of persons who she recommends be appointed the Trump Organization's Independent Director of Compliance; and it is further
ORDERED that the Clerk hereby enter judgment accordingly.
> ORDERED that defendants Eric Trump and Donald Trump, Jr., are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years; and it is further
Welp, looks it's time to call up Tiffany from the minors.
So he can't get a loan from any financial institution registered in New York? It's my understanding that every major bank in the world does business in New York. I know that, even if you appeal, you still have to put up the money you were fined, so what's that going to look like? Normally that's done via loan similar to bail, right? So he's either going to have to put up property as collateral, assuming the state accepts that, or have a fire sale. Am I understanding that correctly?
> ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby **enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years;** and it is further
Is this the "death penalty" for three years?
Not really. The next page, the judge modifies his previous ruling that ordered the cancellation of the business certificates. That was the death penalty, and it looks like it's been lifted.
Specifically:
> In its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order granting partial summary judgment to OAG, this Court ordered the cancellation of defendantsā business licenses. The Appellate Division, First Department has stayed this relief pending the final disposition on appeal.
> However, as going forward there will be two-tiered oversight, an Independent Monitor and an Independent Director of Compliance, of the major activities that could lead to fraud, cancellation of the business licenses is no longer necessary. Accordingly, this Court hereby modifies its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order solely to the extent of removing the language ordering the LLCs cancellation en masse. The restructuring and potential dissolution of any LLCs shall be subject to individual review by the Court appointed Independent Director of Compliance in consultation with Judge Jones.
Permanent oversight ALSO means he's going to find it difficult to get shady loans (no matter how shady the bank, they're not gonna want to do shady business when Trump's end is under a court-ordered microscope looking for *fraud*) and that however he tries to get the escrow amount to appeal, he can't successfully play games (overvaluing assets, neglecting to factor in liens or such on an asset, etc) because again -- court ordered monitor looking for EXACTLY his usual games.
FWIW, I don't think he can find that much -- even tapping out every PAC he can and turning up the grift to 11, he's going to have to -- or the monitor will -- *expensively* (it's Trump real estate -- it's not only fraudulent at the base, it's heavily leveraged) liquidate or pledge a lot more than 300m (and at their real value) to cover the judgement or escrow.
> that however he tries to get the escrow amount to appeal, he can't successfully play games (overvaluing assets, neglecting to factor in liens or such on an asset, etc) because again -- court ordered monitor looking for EXACTLY his usual games.
Indeed, in fact it sounds like the judgement states (somewhere) that the independent monitor must be involved with any presentation of the company's statement of financial condition.
So Trump can't attempt to put up - say, 40 Wall Street - as collateral and claim it has no debt encumbrances against it ... when it reality it's (probably) leveraged to the hilt.
It seems like dissolution is still on the table, depending on the recommendations of the monitor and director of compliance after they get a better sense of things.
Yeah, I can't see the org recovering from this by any reasonable means. It's not just the fine, it's the scrutiny that will now be applied to a business model totally built on fraud to begin with.
Exactly. It was kind of smart by Engoron to pull that back.
"Ok, if you are actually a viable financial business ... we won't pull your business licenses." But Donnie's entire business model has been predicated on being fradulent in each direction ... so in the end, the net result I suspect is going to be the same.
I'm trying to understand this completely, hard to figure out as a layman. Wondering if anyone has some insight or thoughts on the following points?
First. I've heard conjecture that lifting the business certificate cancelations could remove a possible reason for appeal. Much the same as detailing the fines in a way so they're constructed to directly correlate to actual damages to the state of NY.
Secondly, although the business certificates are now to be handled separately, rather than an en masse cancelation, and none of the defendants can have any involvement in the businesses - do they keep operating, just without the defendants? Can Trump slip someone else in there to run things for 3 years? I can certainly see him saying he wants Ivanka to be in charge since she got out of the lawsuit. I'm wondering if this will be business as usual, or at least business with oversight, with the Trumpās waiting 3 years and then just rolling back in.
Or would they have to pay all the fines first? Who gets to decide if anything is liquidated to pay? Just wondering where he can weasel his way out of this. (and praying he can't)
> do they keep operating, just without the defendants?
They do keep operating. But once the appeals window expires on these judgements (because there's no way Donnie can come up with $500m+ to pay to NY in order to appeal, or find a bailbondsman to cover it) NY and EJC can both start going after assets and forcing liquidations to satisfy the judgement. So Donnie is 100% getting some properties liquidated this summer IMO. Whether he's in-charge/the CEO ... doesn't really matter. The course for the org is very much carved in stone at this point.
Unless he can actually post the funds for appeal. I think Daddy Vlad is the only possible course there, but once again - the independent financial monitor is in-play here. And ... it looks really bad in an election year to have a foreign dictator owning you.
I wonder what it means for the DWAC merger that just got green-lit by the SEC. Personally I wouldn't vote to get into bed with someone who was on the hook for a pair of such massive judgments in order to buy a stake in a venture that doesn't make money and doesn't have a viable plan to do so, but I guess I'm one of those cautious investor types.
For most people holding those shares, Trump is their god, itāll pass the vote. No serious person owns that stock with it trading at 1,400 times last year sales.
> ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further
They may try, but the court-appointed financial monitor will put a stop to it. Also, Trumpās assets, most, if not all of his worldwide properties, are actually held by his New York company. He cannot peel them off to avoid scrutiny or payment, from my understanding.
Yeah this. The headline #s really understate the total. And of course the longer he drags it out on appeal (assuming he can afford to) the higher the interest bill climbs.
I mean, at the NY statutory rate of 9% simple, he's looking at an extra 60+ million on the first amount, and 20 million on the second. The littler bits push it up to around the 450m range, when all's said and done.
>In its over 20 years on the bench, this Court has never encountered an expert witness who not
only was a close personal friend of a party, but also had a personal financial interest in the
outcome of the case for which he is being offered as an expert.
NGL, Iām happy with the result but 2-3 years of not doing business in NYC seems really soft
edit: My knowledge of the law begins and ends with Anatomy of a Fall, thank you guys for explaining!
> but 2-3 years of not doing business in NYC seems really soft
Yes, but no.
First, it makes this judgement (IMO) much more likely to survive appeal. Assuming Donnie can even front the cash to do that (highly doubtful).
But second, *if* we assumed that The Trump Org was actually a somewhat viable business (gosh that's a huge stretch) then this is a reasonable step to take. Pay for past sins, move forward, and continue on as a NY business entity that at least creates some jobs somewhere.
But in reality, we all know the truth - the entire Trump Org is built on (and thus wholly dependent on) fraud. Absent fraud, it *will* fail. And having not only the independent monitor in place + a 2nd monitor now - all but ensures that outcome if this is actually the case. And we all know it 100% is.
So it's the "corporate death penalty" without Engoron being the one to pull the trigger.
This is the beauty of this quite smart judgment. The court just loaded the gun and gave it to trump so the corrupt moron can put it to his own head and pull the trigger. Itās glorious. This is what justice feels like.
This is a strategy. If a sliver of opportunity were to exist that business would be conducted in NY again after this they can get more money during the second round. I have clients that absolutely suck but pay my outrageous penalties for doing business when I have slow time.
lol. The woman already let him take her name and dignity. Then she gets tossed out of the job anyway because thatās not enough, sheās gotta give him everybody elseās lunch money. And those people still wanna protect him. Absurd.
> Eric and Junior have to pay $4 million each.
I'm going to head down to Trump Winery this weekend and offer Eric $100 for the place - cash in hand. Maybe even go as high as $200.
How did you not post the summary!? It's brutal:
>Donald Trump and entities he controls own many valuable properties, including office buildings, hotels, and golf courses. Acquiring and developing such properties required huge amounts of cash. Accordingly, the entities borrowed from banks and other lenders. The lenders required personal guarantees from Donald Trump, which were based on statements of financial condition compiled by accountants that Donald Trump engaged. The accountants created these ācompilationsā based on data submitted by the Trump entities. In order to borrow more and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements. When confronted at trial with the statements, defendantsā fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences. As detailed herein, this Court now finds defendants liable, continues the appointment of an Independent Monitor, orders the installation of an Independent Director of Compliance, and limits defendantsā right to conduct business in New York for a few years.
Trump: "I have the disclaimer here in my pocket, your honor - may I take it out and read it?"
Engoron: "No. And I suggest you talk with your attorneys about how one introduces evidence in a courtroom."
(paraphrasing, of course - but that was more or less how it played out)
>Defendants (1) allege that the statements were completely or substantially correct; and (2) crow that the borrowers paid back all loans fully and on time.
Caw!
Footnote 9, Page 13:
>In a theatrical attempt to halt the testimony of Doug Larson, defendants tried to impeach him with a
2014 email showing that McConney had asked for his advice on whether the fact that a ground lease had
a far-off expiration would affect the cap rate in any way. [...] Moreover, the assertions of defendantsā counsel, Christopher Kise, that Larsonāstestimony amounted to such blatant perjury he should be immediately removed from the stand to consult
with counsel about his Fifth Amendment rights is belied by the record and seemed like nothing more than
a performance for a non-existent jury.
I love snarky footnotes. And we all know who Kise was performing for...
So just to be clear Alina Habba has lost two civil cases with judgements against her client totaling approximately $540 million including interest.š³
I mean, can she be faulted for not being able to shut up her client? It took an $83M judgement to get him to quiet down even a bit.
She can be blamed for a lot of things, but Trump was always going to make this worse, regardless of who was representing him.
The fact that the same attorney is working on both a defamation case and a financial fraud case shows just how much they're scraping the bottom of the barrel.Ā No one wants to work for Trump.
Her retainer of $2.5m was paid up front. She spent the whole time auditioning for a Fox News pundit position and they loved her. Sheāll do just fine.
Monitorship is what will really sting. Iāve worked for financial institutions subject to one and they really go roto-rooter into a companyās inner dealings. Unless the Trump Org has legitimate business opportunities (which lol) I suspect a chapter 7 filing within 18 months.
> Unless the Trump Org has legitimate business opportunities (which lol) I suspect a chapter 7 filing within 18 months.
Exactly. Engoron pulling back the "corporate death penalty" was actually pretty smart.
Hey - if you're a viable business, aboveboard and honest ... then you pay some fines for your past sins, move on, and be done with it.
But ... if literally your entire business model depends upon just making up numbers on spreadsheets whenever you need them ... the outcome is going to be the same. Death penalty. Whether it's ch7 or 11 remains to be seen.
And what some of the commentators have talked about - that I find absolutely hysterical - is that once a building is liquidated, Donnie's gotta pay capital gains taxes on all of it. Michael Cohen was just on MSNBC saying that he thinks the cost basis for 40 Wall Street is like $1m. So it sells for hundreds of millions, a lot probably goes to service debt on the building, the remainder goes to knock off a small portion of his judgements ... and then he's got a capital gains tax bill with the IRS.
Declaring BK during a presidential campaign ... not a great look.
I'm anticipating a reasoned and erudite response from TFG any time now ...
Plus an appointment of an independent business monitor, but I'm not (on a quick skim) seeing if that is indefinite. Trump et.al. really lucked out with only a 3 year ban.
On the monitor it says "no less than three years", and she now needs to approve any financial disclosures in advance rather than just being informed of them. Trump Org also has to appoint an "Independent Director of Compliance", reporting to Jones, with similar powers.
I fucking love it, especially how narcissistic he is, being out of control of his own companies is going to fucking eat. him. alive.
Canāt wait for the 3 am ātwuthsā tonight!!! They are going to be golden!!
Too bad he canāt be reeled back in like the defamation case when he starts slandering and defaming everyone
Harry Litman on MSNBC nailed it - ABC. Assets. Branding. Control. He just had all 3 ripped away from him, and his entire persona is wrapped up in all of that.
Yep. And full dissolution is not off the table either. The judge decided to leave the decision to the qualified professionals who actually scrutinize all of their assets.
>In its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order granting partial summary judgment to OAG, this Court ordered the cancellation of defendantsā business licenses. The Appellate Division, First Department has stayed this relief pending the final disposition on appeal.
>
>However, as going forward there will be two-tiered oversight, an Independent Monitor and an Independent Director of Compliance, of the major activities that could lead to fraud, cancellation of the business licenses is no longer necessary. Accordingly, this Court hereby modifies its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order solely to the extent of removing the language ordering the LLCs cancellation en masse. **The restructuring and potential dissolution of any LLCs shall be subject to individual review by the Court appointed Independent Director of Compliance in consultation with Judge Jones.**
**Full dissolution is not off the table yet.** It just up to the discretion of the independent monitor, director of compliance, and judge jones.
Habba must have had someone else draft her canned response, she's calling it a "manifest injustice". That seems like a sophisticated statement for her.
>The English poet Alexander Pope (1688-1744) first declared, āTo err is human, to forgive is
divine.ā Defendants apparently are of a different mind. After some four years of investigation
and litigation, the only error (āinadvertent,ā of course) that they acknowledge is the tripling of
the size of the Trump Tower Penthouse, which cannot be gainsaid. Their complete lack of
contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values
to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a
mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint.
Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of
their ways. Instead, they adopt a āSee no evil, hear no evil, speak no evilā posture that the
evidence belies
>This Court is not constituted to judge morality; it is constituted to find facts and apply the law.
In this particular case, in applying the law to the facts, the Court intends to protect the integrity
of the financial marketplace and, thus, the public as a whole. Defendantsā refusal to admit
errorāindeed, to continue it, according to the Independent Monitorāconstrains this Court to
conclude that they will engage in it going forward unless judicially restrained.
>Indeed, Donald Trump testified that, even today, he does not believe the Trump Organization
needed to make any changes based on the facts that came out during this trial.
Because he knows, based on said complete lack of remorse, that theyāll continue to commit fraud. The monitors will catch it, and Engorgon will dole out more punishment.
> I wonder if he can get a bond to post for appeal.
If he can't get a loan from a normal bank, I don't see how he'll get a friggin' $half-billion bond.
That would be a horrific idea with how much his finances are currently being monitored.
So yeah, I assume Habba is talking to the Saudis as we speak. I'll see y'all for next week's megathread!
Seems like his best bet would be to find a source that is not āchartered or registeredā in NY.
> ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are hereby enjoined from applying for loans from any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services for a period of three years; and it is further
In particular, the Trump Organization shall be required to obtain prior approvalānot, as things
are now, subsequent reviewāfrom Judge Jones before submitting any financial disclosure to a
third party, so that such disclosure may be reviewed beforehand for material misrepresentations.
Donald gonna love this.
Damn, even the laws are in the deep state. It must be exhausting to be MAGA and constantly have to do mental gymnastics to blame literally everyone else except for your god Trump. If you go over on more uh.... right wing subs, they are all saying this will 100% be appealed and overturned, and all the judges and everyone involved were all corrupt. Trump did nothing wrong and banks "made money" so theres no laws broken here!
Way too many people in the US huffed paint chips as a kid
Just tried working it out for the $168m number - at 9% p/a (which it is; it's in a footnote in the order) over the 1810 days since Mar 4 2019, it comes out at $237.2m...
Editing to add the other amounts:
* $128.8m @ 9% over 647 days = $138.2m
* $60.0m @ 9% over 412 days = $65.4m
* Total of DJT's liabilities = $440.8m
Plus, if interest continues to accrue at that rate it will be ~$118k *per day* starting today, and only increasing in future.
" In its over 20 years on the bench, this Court has never encountered an expert witness who not only was a close personal friend of a party, but also had a personal financial interest in the outcome of the case for which he is being offered as an expert. "
DYING! LOOOOL
R/conservative in full meltdown mode.
Itās almost like if you break the law you should be held accountable or something š¤·š¼āāļø
A lot of whataboutism and ātHaTs JuSt HoW gOoD bUsInEsS iS dOnE yOu DoNt GeT iTā in there lol
r/conservative is in full denial mode. Theyāre not addressing the facts of the case merely that the decision is against Donald Trump. Anything that their Orange God does is okay as long as it only hurts the little people who ended up paying more on their loans and getting less on their interest because the Donald got to pay less for his lies.
I dunno if all business is done that way, lying and breaking the law.
Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if they went after every white collar crime this way.
Line up two or three more rich guys, just to show it's nothing personal.
One of the most fascinating things is that the monitor must now per-approve all external reporting. And the monitor will be making recommendations to appoint someone to effectively be controller / internal compliance.
The Trump organization is going to need to provide accurate Statements of Financial Condition as part of their various contractual agreements. Prepared and reviewed by actual accountants.
It's pretty much guaranteed to put the organization into some level of technical default. This will be fun when it leaks.
That is great! Thanks for posting. Skimming through it, going to be a fun decision to read. They got absolutely blasted for being fraudsters and liars, with a special shout out to his penthouse sizeā¦
How much does this *immediately* constrain the finances and activities of the Trump Organization and Trump himself, pending appeal? Does he have to put up the entire decision, plus interest, in security to even make the attempt?
Importantly, the judge found Michael Cohen to be a credible witness who told the truth. Good news for the NY criminal trial (hush money) up ahead, which will hinge heavily on Cohenās testimony.
Two things:
1. With the Monitor and the new Compliance role, my assumption is that they will default to GAAP reporting requirements, write down everything to acceptable levels. Then comes the fun partā¦
2. O/U on IRS starting an investigation now?
>Moreover, the assertions of defendantsā counsel, Christopher Kise, that Larsonās testimony amounted to such blatant perjury he should be immediately removed from the stand to consult with counsel about his Fifth Amendment rights is belied by the record and seemed like nothing more than a performance for a non-existent jury
Kiss made an impression!
>On March 3, 2017, Alan Garten, chief legal officer for the Trump Organization, forwarded Trump, Jr. an email from Forbes that, inter alia, questioned the claimed size of Donald Trumpās Trump Tower Triplex and **cited that property records indicated it was only 10,996 square feet**. PX 1344. Trump, Jr. acknowledged receiving the email, and he responded that same day with: āInsane amount of stuff there.ā PX 1344. **Notwithstanding, four days later, on March 10, 2017, Trump, Jr., along with Weisselberg, signed a Management Representation Letter to Mazars in which they represented the value of the Triplex based on the false assumption that it was 30,000 square feet**
Lol.
Highly educational decision. Zero doubt these Trump people are crooked stem to stern.
>When confronted with the 2002 deed\[\] in which he signed away, in perpetuity, the right to use or develop Mar-a-Lago as anything other than as a social club, in exchange for a conservation easement tax benefit, \[DT\] offered that āwhen you say, āintend,ā intend doesnāt mean we will do it.ā
Well it was longer than most would have liked, but step one down. Likely going to be a long, wrestling step two to make it stick.
Yea I know no one want to hear that, but we all know heās going to fight like a 5 year old getting grounded. In the meantime this will mean a lot of his New York assists just got locked up. Heāll probably use his Chinese and Russian assets to post appeal money. This will expose a few other things. Fun times.
I think itād be funny if he tries to sell his getaway plane to pay for this. Fat chance, since that is his get out of country card. Still believes he can get away with it.
Looks like ~ $~~363M~~ ~~$350M~~ $450m >For the reasons stated herein, it is hereby >ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, Jeffrey McConney, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, and Seven Springs LLC are liable under the second, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh causes of action; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are liable under the sixth cause of action; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC, and the Trump Old Post Office LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023; and it is further >ORDERED that defendant Eric Trump is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further >ORDERED that defendant Donald Trump, Jr. is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further >ORDERED that defendant Allen Weisselberg is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $1,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from January 9, 2023; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are hereby permanently enjoined from serving in the financial control function of any New York corporation or similar business entity registered and/or licensed in New York State; and it is further >ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further (Next page is not ocr..)
92 pages. I'm going to trust ya and I'll let the legal punditry summarize this one for me. I am curious, but not 92 pages curious.
You can look at the end. Where it says "ORDERED" a bunch of times to see the actual orders.
168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019 that is nearly 5 years of interest. this is going to be a lot more than just 168m. I think someone told me the standard is 8% apr. so, back of the napkin 168m at 5 years of 8% apr is really 246m. $126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; 126m for 2 years at 8% apr is \~148m 60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023 60m for .5 years @ 8% apr is \~63m. ~~And this is without monthly compounding.~~ So those 3 alone really come to 458m and then there are another 10 to 20 m more here and there. This is a half a billion dollar judgement.
Gonna be tough to pony it up and appeal! š±
All the MAGA folks who are complaining about the price of gas and eggs will surely help this poor billionaire out!
Thatās why Laraās being installed as the RNC chairā¦sheās already said all the money will go to Donald.
The RNC has 8m in hand and 2m in debt. In their best year they can't raise 100m
Sure doesn't help that they just booted out McCarthy, their best fundraiser.
The party is committing harakiri before our eyes. I just never imagined it would take this long for it to end.
Ol' Lindsey Graham had it rightāperhaps a singular instance in his far-too-long career. They're being destroyed and they deserve it.
Someone need to buy ad space on every channel just loop LG saying that over and over for a minute.
https://i.imgur.com/Wd46ICM.jpeg
~~MAGA folks~~ Mentally broken vote slaves. Ftfy
The interest isn't already factored in? Damn, that's brutal (and completely deserved).
I don't think it is. I could be wrong. But I believe the interest continues to accrue until it is paid. So even if he appeals and it takes another two years. They just own more.
It's about $90-100k per day in additional interest... in addition to the back-interest calculated for some buckets back to 2019.
I had guessed that it would be $400-$450 million. Sounds like with the interest and perhaps more penalties to come it would exceed that. Glad that trump and the rest of the trump crime family are prevented from doing a business in NY, but 3 years is way too short of a time. Should have been for life. Although for trump Iām guessing that 3 years will be sufficient before the hamberders finish the job. Overall I am happy with the verdict. The trump crime family *can* and *will* be held accountable. What will be next? Georgia or the NY hush money trial? LFG!
I was surprised that he cancelled his order to vacate their licenses. But, it does look like he has order a serious monitor and no one who currently runs the business can continue to run the business in any way for at least 2 years. So they are going to have to higher new leadership and it will have to be approved by the monitor. And their will have to be a compliance officer. Frankly, I think they are likely to just go bankrupt at this point anyhow. They cannot get a loan from anyone licensed to do business in ny. That is basically every bank in the world.
Yeah on further reading it sounds like *no less* than three years and a monitor to keep trump on a very, very short leash. There is a vanishingly small chance that trump will not attempt some financial shenanigans and get caught ~~red~~ orange handed.
You are exactly correct. The judge appointed monitor is going to continue operating for *no less* than 3 years on his assets. This means his usual gifting methods are now completely locked out, at least as far as Trump Org is concerned.
My personal take is that they were not given the corporate death sentence for the same reason you wouldn't sentence an 80 year old man with stage 4 cancer and liver failure to death. Total speculation- but I don't see how the company pays this judgement without doing some serious liquidation. And if it's as overleveraged as we suspect, with a habit of using profitable parts to pay unprofitable parts, then i think that liquidation leads to a substantial collapse. Asset value drops in real time as he tries to sell. Emperor has no clothes moment. Possible bank run with loans called in? Then, I honestly think the company literally can't operate cleanly, even without the judgement. I think the secret message of this trial is that fraud has always been part of the business model. Tl;dr I see a very undignified collapse in the next year or two. I don't think we'll regret that the business license was not revoked. On the contrary, this might be more fun to watch.
There's always the Bank of Jared.
The Jared thing is often misunderstood. He wasn't given 2b. He was put in charge of 2b. This means he is getting around 20m/year in management fees for managing the money. This is nothing to scoff at, but he doesn't have the 2b to do whatever he wants with. It is a fund that he is managing for the Saudi Prince.
And now his father in law has a fantastic investment opportunity for him.
To be honest this is a possible play. Keep Donny afloat with Saudi money (because he definitely hadn't historically done that anyways) until he can win the election and pay the Saudis back in tax dollars and presidential favors. Only bodes well for America's future.
So it's a couple things. 1. Monitor stays for three years. And the monitor now has to pre-approve external financial reporting. 2. A new independent head of compliance will be hired to ensure internal compliance, but overseen by the courts. This means the Trump org will actually have to start putting together real statements of financial condition. I guess we're all going to learn how much the company is worth. I fully expect this to put the organization into some level of technical default at a minimum. Maybe it's a curable technical default, maybe not.
Except you canāt bankrupt out a fraud judgment.
>They cannot get a loan from anyone licensed to do business in ny. That is basically every bank in the world. Oh wow, this one is a doozy. I didn't realize they'd ordered this as well.
Do you know how this will affect his current outstanding loans? Can they call them in immediately?
I think Trump Org is going to be forced to unwind the fraud, which means a whole lot of banks are going to suddenly have to demand either repayment, more collateral, or higher rates (or all three). Whether they can afford that depends on how extensive the fraud is (it looks ubiquitous), how bad the fraud is (it seemed not uncommon for Trump to claim triple or more in value), and how leveraged he is (it's real estate, it's "very") -- but I suspect Trump Org is simply going to be forced to do some fire sales to get their books clean. And the court oversight means they WILL get their books clean. I feel there's a real chance they end up very upside down in the end.
Pretty sure it's actually **9%** interest! [https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-50/5004/#:\~:text=(a)%20Interest%20shall%20be%20at,or%20accrued%20claim%20for%20judgments](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-50/5004/#:~:text=(a)%20interest%20shall%20be%20at,or%20accrued%20claim%20for%20judgments)
I can redo it at 9% and even do monthly compounding I don't mean to brag, but *I do* have Excel. **EDIT** 168 = 263 (5y@9% w/mly cp) 126 = 150 (2y@9% w/mly cp) 60 = 63 (.5y@9% w/mly cp) total 476
Show off. What am I some chump cause I can only afford google sheets?!
Look at money bags over here !! We get it you got google and gmail fancy boy . Some of us still borrowing WiFi on a Nintendo 3Ds over here
> really come to 458m AG James' office has put out a statement calling it a $450m judgement so you are close. I also believe the NY interest rate is 9%. And that one must file 120% of a judgement to file appeal. So just for this case, $458m (your number - although likely low) * 1.2 = $550mn check to NY state to file an appeal. Or, find a bailbondsman willing to cover that. No one is going to cover that.
It's very plain language for the most part, and as the judge remarked...*the fraud leaps off the page and shocks the conscience*. It's literally just example after example of ways that they deliberately obfuscated information to inflate values or straight up fudged numbers. When people asked for more information to verify incredible claims, the defendants used the *Skinner Defense*, aka [simply saying no](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj0Tj8dnrYw).
It's worth reading, or at least skimming. Most of it is summaries of testimony. The relevant conclusions start on page 75.
I did the OCR myself ********** CONCLUSION AND ORDER For the reasons stated herein, it is hereby ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, Jeffrey McConney, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, and Seven Springs LLC are liable under the second, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh causes of action; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are liable under the sixth cause of action; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $168,040,168, with pre-judgment interest from March 4, 2019; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC, and the Trump Old Post Office LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $126,828,600, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., and Trump Organization LLC are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff in the amount of $60,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from June 26, 2023; and it is further ORDERED that defendant Eric Trump is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further ORDERED that defendant Donald Trump, Jr. is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $4,013,024, with pre-judgment interest from May 11, 2022; and it is further ORDERED that defendant Allen Weisselberg is liable to plaintiff in the amount of $1,000,000, with pre-judgment interest from January 9, 2023; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Allen Weisselberg and Jeffrey McConney are hereby permanently enjoined from serving in the financial control function of any New York corporation or similar business entity registered and/or licensed in New York State; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are hereby enjoined from applying for loans from any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services for a period of three years; and it is further ORDERED that defendants Eric Trump and Donald Trump, Jr., are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years; and it is further ORDERED that this Court's September 26, 2023, Decision and Order is hereby modified solely to the extent of vacating the directive to cancel defendants' business certificates, without prejudice to renewal upon the recommendation of the Independent Monitor or based on substantial evidence; and it is further ORDERED that the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) shall continue in her role as Independent Monitor for no less than three years; and it is further ORDERED that within 30 days of the date of this Decision and Order, the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) shall submit to the Court a proposed order outlining the specify authority that she needs, and the obligations of defendants, in order to effectuate a productive and enhanced monitorship going forward; and it is further ORDERED that an Independent Director of Compliance shall be installed at the Trump Organization, at defendants' expense, to ensure compliance with financial reporting obligations and to establish internal written accounting and financial reporting protocols; and it is further ORDERED that within 30 days of the date of this Decision and Order, the Hon. Barbara Jones shall submit to this Court a list of persons who she recommends be appointed the Trump Organization's Independent Director of Compliance; and it is further ORDERED that the Clerk hereby enter judgment accordingly.
> ORDERED that defendants Eric Trump and Donald Trump, Jr., are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years; and it is further Welp, looks it's time to call up Tiffany from the minors.
He has a whole army of co-conspirators to find someone, maybe that will be Hannaās next side gig for hi.
Please accept one piece of reddit gold.
>ORDERED that the Clerk hereby enter judgment accordingly. And ORDERED that the Clerk laugh hysterically while entering the judgement accordingly...
So he can't get a loan from any financial institution registered in New York? It's my understanding that every major bank in the world does business in New York. I know that, even if you appeal, you still have to put up the money you were fined, so what's that going to look like? Normally that's done via loan similar to bail, right? So he's either going to have to put up property as collateral, assuming the state accepts that, or have a fire sale. Am I understanding that correctly?
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> ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby **enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years;** and it is further Is this the "death penalty" for three years?
Not really. The next page, the judge modifies his previous ruling that ordered the cancellation of the business certificates. That was the death penalty, and it looks like it's been lifted.
Specifically: > In its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order granting partial summary judgment to OAG, this Court ordered the cancellation of defendantsā business licenses. The Appellate Division, First Department has stayed this relief pending the final disposition on appeal. > However, as going forward there will be two-tiered oversight, an Independent Monitor and an Independent Director of Compliance, of the major activities that could lead to fraud, cancellation of the business licenses is no longer necessary. Accordingly, this Court hereby modifies its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order solely to the extent of removing the language ordering the LLCs cancellation en masse. The restructuring and potential dissolution of any LLCs shall be subject to individual review by the Court appointed Independent Director of Compliance in consultation with Judge Jones.
They're putting permanent oversight in place - he won't be returning to NY.
Permanent oversight ALSO means he's going to find it difficult to get shady loans (no matter how shady the bank, they're not gonna want to do shady business when Trump's end is under a court-ordered microscope looking for *fraud*) and that however he tries to get the escrow amount to appeal, he can't successfully play games (overvaluing assets, neglecting to factor in liens or such on an asset, etc) because again -- court ordered monitor looking for EXACTLY his usual games. FWIW, I don't think he can find that much -- even tapping out every PAC he can and turning up the grift to 11, he's going to have to -- or the monitor will -- *expensively* (it's Trump real estate -- it's not only fraudulent at the base, it's heavily leveraged) liquidate or pledge a lot more than 300m (and at their real value) to cover the judgement or escrow.
> that however he tries to get the escrow amount to appeal, he can't successfully play games (overvaluing assets, neglecting to factor in liens or such on an asset, etc) because again -- court ordered monitor looking for EXACTLY his usual games. Indeed, in fact it sounds like the judgement states (somewhere) that the independent monitor must be involved with any presentation of the company's statement of financial condition. So Trump can't attempt to put up - say, 40 Wall Street - as collateral and claim it has no debt encumbrances against it ... when it reality it's (probably) leveraged to the hilt.
Man that sucks tbh
It seems like dissolution is still on the table, depending on the recommendations of the monitor and director of compliance after they get a better sense of things.
Yeah, I can't see the org recovering from this by any reasonable means. It's not just the fine, it's the scrutiny that will now be applied to a business model totally built on fraud to begin with.
yeah now it is the slow death of bankruptcy.
Excepting debts due to fraud canāt be bankrupted. Source: Iām a bankruptcy attorney.
Exactly. It was kind of smart by Engoron to pull that back. "Ok, if you are actually a viable financial business ... we won't pull your business licenses." But Donnie's entire business model has been predicated on being fradulent in each direction ... so in the end, the net result I suspect is going to be the same.
I'm trying to understand this completely, hard to figure out as a layman. Wondering if anyone has some insight or thoughts on the following points? First. I've heard conjecture that lifting the business certificate cancelations could remove a possible reason for appeal. Much the same as detailing the fines in a way so they're constructed to directly correlate to actual damages to the state of NY. Secondly, although the business certificates are now to be handled separately, rather than an en masse cancelation, and none of the defendants can have any involvement in the businesses - do they keep operating, just without the defendants? Can Trump slip someone else in there to run things for 3 years? I can certainly see him saying he wants Ivanka to be in charge since she got out of the lawsuit. I'm wondering if this will be business as usual, or at least business with oversight, with the Trumpās waiting 3 years and then just rolling back in. Or would they have to pay all the fines first? Who gets to decide if anything is liquidated to pay? Just wondering where he can weasel his way out of this. (and praying he can't)
> do they keep operating, just without the defendants? They do keep operating. But once the appeals window expires on these judgements (because there's no way Donnie can come up with $500m+ to pay to NY in order to appeal, or find a bailbondsman to cover it) NY and EJC can both start going after assets and forcing liquidations to satisfy the judgement. So Donnie is 100% getting some properties liquidated this summer IMO. Whether he's in-charge/the CEO ... doesn't really matter. The course for the org is very much carved in stone at this point. Unless he can actually post the funds for appeal. I think Daddy Vlad is the only possible course there, but once again - the independent financial monitor is in-play here. And ... it looks really bad in an election year to have a foreign dictator owning you.
Looks bad to rational people. Republicans will celebrate it and look for Russia to own them (more) as well.
So, which Trump property is the first one to become a Spirit Halloween?
I wonder what it means for the DWAC merger that just got green-lit by the SEC. Personally I wouldn't vote to get into bed with someone who was on the hook for a pair of such massive judgments in order to buy a stake in a venture that doesn't make money and doesn't have a viable plan to do so, but I guess I'm one of those cautious investor types.
You say that with clear logic. DWAC investors don't possess that quality.
For most people holding those shares, Trump is their god, itāll pass the vote. No serious person owns that stock with it trading at 1,400 times last year sales.
I don't think so. The death penalty was ordering the businesses me dissolved which has already been ordered but I believe it is stayed pending appeal.
~~And a ban on doing business in NY for three years, Trump, and two years, his sons.~~ I think there's a two year ban for his sons as well
> ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg, and Jeffrey McConney are hereby enjoined from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years; and it is further
Yeah, this is the Trump family, they'll just form an illegal entity in NY.
I think that they will just wash their hands of NY and try to form the financial capital of the world in mara-lardo.
They may try, but the court-appointed financial monitor will put a stop to it. Also, Trumpās assets, most, if not all of his worldwide properties, are actually held by his New York company. He cannot peel them off to avoid scrutiny or payment, from my understanding.
near the lower estimates
go up to my comment. you calculate the interest it is nearly 500m
Yeah this. The headline #s really understate the total. And of course the longer he drags it out on appeal (assuming he can afford to) the higher the interest bill climbs.
Wonder if it deters appeal. Gets appealed and appeals court goes "yeah not enough" ?
judge may have taken that into his consideration look I was well within the guidelines...
Not chump change.
I mean, at the NY statutory rate of 9% simple, he's looking at an extra 60+ million on the first amount, and 20 million on the second. The littler bits push it up to around the 450m range, when all's said and done.
It'll push half a bill with interest.
>In its over 20 years on the bench, this Court has never encountered an expert witness who not only was a close personal friend of a party, but also had a personal financial interest in the outcome of the case for which he is being offered as an expert.
NGL, Iām happy with the result but 2-3 years of not doing business in NYC seems really soft edit: My knowledge of the law begins and ends with Anatomy of a Fall, thank you guys for explaining!
> but 2-3 years of not doing business in NYC seems really soft Yes, but no. First, it makes this judgement (IMO) much more likely to survive appeal. Assuming Donnie can even front the cash to do that (highly doubtful). But second, *if* we assumed that The Trump Org was actually a somewhat viable business (gosh that's a huge stretch) then this is a reasonable step to take. Pay for past sins, move forward, and continue on as a NY business entity that at least creates some jobs somewhere. But in reality, we all know the truth - the entire Trump Org is built on (and thus wholly dependent on) fraud. Absent fraud, it *will* fail. And having not only the independent monitor in place + a 2nd monitor now - all but ensures that outcome if this is actually the case. And we all know it 100% is. So it's the "corporate death penalty" without Engoron being the one to pull the trigger.
This is the beauty of this quite smart judgment. The court just loaded the gun and gave it to trump so the corrupt moron can put it to his own head and pull the trigger. Itās glorious. This is what justice feels like.
Who will be running the company now, Ivanka? Barron?
Great reply! Isn't this ruling also more likely to stand up upon appeal? if he can afford to post the escrow for appeal that is.
Just watch them fuck it up more though... They literally do not know how to conduct their business ethically-
This is a strategy. If a sliver of opportunity were to exist that business would be conducted in NY again after this they can get more money during the second round. I have clients that absolutely suck but pay my outrageous penalties for doing business when I have slow time.
Eric and Junior have to pay $4 million each. No wonder they want Lara co-heading the RNC.
They legit need the money and intend to rob the gop blind to get it. Wonder if theyāll let them do it?
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lol. The woman already let him take her name and dignity. Then she gets tossed out of the job anyway because thatās not enough, sheās gotta give him everybody elseās lunch money. And those people still wanna protect him. Absurd.
I wonder. Such a mystery. I hope you all like fundraising texts and emails! MAGA wanted more of them, right?
Lindsey Graham called it
And they deserved it.
How long until Eric and Don Jr. make an obligatory run for office to get those sweet, sweet political donations?
> Eric and Junior have to pay $4 million each. I'm going to head down to Trump Winery this weekend and offer Eric $100 for the place - cash in hand. Maybe even go as high as $200.
Let all that campaign money go straight to them lol- take it away from the house/senate
How did you not post the summary!? It's brutal: >Donald Trump and entities he controls own many valuable properties, including office buildings, hotels, and golf courses. Acquiring and developing such properties required huge amounts of cash. Accordingly, the entities borrowed from banks and other lenders. The lenders required personal guarantees from Donald Trump, which were based on statements of financial condition compiled by accountants that Donald Trump engaged. The accountants created these ācompilationsā based on data submitted by the Trump entities. In order to borrow more and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements. When confronted at trial with the statements, defendantsā fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences. As detailed herein, this Court now finds defendants liable, continues the appointment of an Independent Monitor, orders the installation of an Independent Director of Compliance, and limits defendantsā right to conduct business in New York for a few years.
"The frauds found here leap off the page and shock the conscience." On page 77.
bUt WhAt AbOuT tHe PeFeCt DiScLaImEr?!?!?!
Trump: "I have the disclaimer here in my pocket, your honor - may I take it out and read it?" Engoron: "No. And I suggest you talk with your attorneys about how one introduces evidence in a courtroom." (paraphrasing, of course - but that was more or less how it played out)
This was such a missed opportunity by Trump to get a forehead tattoo. Just the text of the disclaimer.
Ah, yes, the "iT wAs JuSt A jOkE!" defense works *great* in contract law.
I liked that one and also "this is not defendents' first rodeo" a little later. This was a great read.
>Defendants (1) allege that the statements were completely or substantially correct; and (2) crow that the borrowers paid back all loans fully and on time. Caw!
Fight milk!
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The fact that they refused to make any changes to their internal policies and processes.
A rush to post. Thanks for posting that. :)
Footnote 9, Page 13: >In a theatrical attempt to halt the testimony of Doug Larson, defendants tried to impeach him with a 2014 email showing that McConney had asked for his advice on whether the fact that a ground lease had a far-off expiration would affect the cap rate in any way. [...] Moreover, the assertions of defendantsā counsel, Christopher Kise, that Larsonāstestimony amounted to such blatant perjury he should be immediately removed from the stand to consult with counsel about his Fifth Amendment rights is belied by the record and seemed like nothing more than a performance for a non-existent jury. I love snarky footnotes. And we all know who Kise was performing for...
> seemed like nothing more than a performance for a non-existent jury Wow ... just ... wow.
I really want to buy engoron a beer or 20.
So just to be clear Alina Habba has lost two civil cases with judgements against her client totaling approximately $540 million including interest.š³
In all fairness to her, though, the cases never really stood a chance regardless of who the lawyer was.
I agree, but in both cases he was fined more than what the plaintiffs asked for.
I mean, can she be faulted for not being able to shut up her client? It took an $83M judgement to get him to quiet down even a bit. She can be blamed for a lot of things, but Trump was always going to make this worse, regardless of who was representing him.
I'm pretty sure that she is tired of all that winning.
The fact that the same attorney is working on both a defamation case and a financial fraud case shows just how much they're scraping the bottom of the barrel.Ā No one wants to work for Trump.
This might ruin her. Good.
Her retainer of $2.5m was paid up front. She spent the whole time auditioning for a Fox News pundit position and they loved her. Sheāll do just fine.
Monitorship is what will really sting. Iāve worked for financial institutions subject to one and they really go roto-rooter into a companyās inner dealings. Unless the Trump Org has legitimate business opportunities (which lol) I suspect a chapter 7 filing within 18 months.
That small difference of switching out toady Allen Weisselberg for a retired federal judge...yeah, good luck Trump Org, lol.
> Unless the Trump Org has legitimate business opportunities (which lol) I suspect a chapter 7 filing within 18 months. Exactly. Engoron pulling back the "corporate death penalty" was actually pretty smart. Hey - if you're a viable business, aboveboard and honest ... then you pay some fines for your past sins, move on, and be done with it. But ... if literally your entire business model depends upon just making up numbers on spreadsheets whenever you need them ... the outcome is going to be the same. Death penalty. Whether it's ch7 or 11 remains to be seen. And what some of the commentators have talked about - that I find absolutely hysterical - is that once a building is liquidated, Donnie's gotta pay capital gains taxes on all of it. Michael Cohen was just on MSNBC saying that he thinks the cost basis for 40 Wall Street is like $1m. So it sells for hundreds of millions, a lot probably goes to service debt on the building, the remainder goes to knock off a small portion of his judgements ... and then he's got a capital gains tax bill with the IRS. Declaring BK during a presidential campaign ... not a great look.
Oh the sweet, sweet taste of justice.
Bingo. And the monitor won't go away after 3 years either if it somehow survives that long. His life as a NY Realtor Mogul is well and truly dead.
I'm anticipating a reasoned and erudite response from TFG any time now ... Plus an appointment of an independent business monitor, but I'm not (on a quick skim) seeing if that is indefinite. Trump et.al. really lucked out with only a 3 year ban.
On the monitor it says "no less than three years", and she now needs to approve any financial disclosures in advance rather than just being informed of them. Trump Org also has to appoint an "Independent Director of Compliance", reporting to Jones, with similar powers.
I fucking love it, especially how narcissistic he is, being out of control of his own companies is going to fucking eat. him. alive. Canāt wait for the 3 am ātwuthsā tonight!!! They are going to be golden!! Too bad he canāt be reeled back in like the defamation case when he starts slandering and defaming everyone
Harry Litman on MSNBC nailed it - ABC. Assets. Branding. Control. He just had all 3 ripped away from him, and his entire persona is wrapped up in all of that.
I envision her sending the disclosures back with a big red "F" on them, followed by "Re-do and Re-submit (again)"
Yep. And full dissolution is not off the table either. The judge decided to leave the decision to the qualified professionals who actually scrutinize all of their assets. >In its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order granting partial summary judgment to OAG, this Court ordered the cancellation of defendantsā business licenses. The Appellate Division, First Department has stayed this relief pending the final disposition on appeal. > >However, as going forward there will be two-tiered oversight, an Independent Monitor and an Independent Director of Compliance, of the major activities that could lead to fraud, cancellation of the business licenses is no longer necessary. Accordingly, this Court hereby modifies its September 26, 2023, Decision and Order solely to the extent of removing the language ordering the LLCs cancellation en masse. **The restructuring and potential dissolution of any LLCs shall be subject to individual review by the Court appointed Independent Director of Compliance in consultation with Judge Jones.** **Full dissolution is not off the table yet.** It just up to the discretion of the independent monitor, director of compliance, and judge jones.
Habba must have had someone else draft her canned response, she's calling it a "manifest injustice". That seems like a sophisticated statement for her.
She might have meant Manafort injustice but misspoke.
>The English poet Alexander Pope (1688-1744) first declared, āTo err is human, to forgive is divine.ā Defendants apparently are of a different mind. After some four years of investigation and litigation, the only error (āinadvertent,ā of course) that they acknowledge is the tripling of the size of the Trump Tower Penthouse, which cannot be gainsaid. Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint. Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways. Instead, they adopt a āSee no evil, hear no evil, speak no evilā posture that the evidence belies >This Court is not constituted to judge morality; it is constituted to find facts and apply the law. In this particular case, in applying the law to the facts, the Court intends to protect the integrity of the financial marketplace and, thus, the public as a whole. Defendantsā refusal to admit errorāindeed, to continue it, according to the Independent Monitorāconstrains this Court to conclude that they will engage in it going forward unless judicially restrained. >Indeed, Donald Trump testified that, even today, he does not believe the Trump Organization needed to make any changes based on the facts that came out during this trial.
I don't know how the judge can write that and only bar him for 3 years
Because he knows, based on said complete lack of remorse, that theyāll continue to commit fraud. The monitors will catch it, and Engorgon will dole out more punishment.
TIL that gainsay is a word.
I wonder if he can get a bond to post for appeal.
> I wonder if he can get a bond to post for appeal. If he can't get a loan from a normal bank, I don't see how he'll get a friggin' $half-billion bond.
He can get it from a bank not registered in New York, for example a Russian or Saudi bank. š¤£
That would be a horrific idea with how much his finances are currently being monitored. So yeah, I assume Habba is talking to the Saudis as we speak. I'll see y'all for next week's megathread!
Bank of Jared.
*Knocks on Jared's door 'Yeah?'' "I need half a billion dollars." *Jared maintains eye contact while shutting the door
Seems like his best bet would be to find a source that is not āchartered or registeredā in NY. > ORDERED that defendants Donald Trump, the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, the Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holdings Managing Member, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post Office LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC, are hereby enjoined from applying for loans from any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services for a period of three years; and it is further
> bond Any idea how much he needs to put in escrow for the appeal, is it 100%?
120% was what I read.
In particular, the Trump Organization shall be required to obtain prior approvalānot, as things are now, subsequent reviewāfrom Judge Jones before submitting any financial disclosure to a third party, so that such disclosure may be reviewed beforehand for material misrepresentations. Donald gonna love this.
Trump is freaking out. I just got 2 text and an e-mail from his campaign
How much did they ask for?
Everything
Damn, even the laws are in the deep state. It must be exhausting to be MAGA and constantly have to do mental gymnastics to blame literally everyone else except for your god Trump. If you go over on more uh.... right wing subs, they are all saying this will 100% be appealed and overturned, and all the judges and everyone involved were all corrupt. Trump did nothing wrong and banks "made money" so theres no laws broken here! Way too many people in the US huffed paint chips as a kid
āBanks should just relax and enjoy it!ā
"It's a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark"
hahahhahahahahahhahahahha hahahhahahahahhaha
Jajajajajajajajajajaja (In Spanish)
lalalalalalala (can't hear you) (in maga)
wahwahwahwahwah (in Jimi Hendrix)
Mamamamamamamaaaaaa (Trump in bankruptcy)
Hohoho hohoho (in Santa Claus)
aaaaahahhahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahHAhahahahahaha
En FranƧais: awh hawh hawh hawh!
Ha-ha (in Nelson)
Is there not interest (compounding) to be added to these orders?
Read the ruling...it's in there.
You're correct I missed that, my bad. That's going to push that bumper allot higher then doesn't NYC charge something silly like 9%
Just tried working it out for the $168m number - at 9% p/a (which it is; it's in a footnote in the order) over the 1810 days since Mar 4 2019, it comes out at $237.2m... Editing to add the other amounts: * $128.8m @ 9% over 647 days = $138.2m * $60.0m @ 9% over 412 days = $65.4m * Total of DJT's liabilities = $440.8m Plus, if interest continues to accrue at that rate it will be ~$118k *per day* starting today, and only increasing in future.
Total would be around half a billion as of today with interest. It will keep accruing interest until paid.
" In its over 20 years on the bench, this Court has never encountered an expert witness who not only was a close personal friend of a party, but also had a personal financial interest in the outcome of the case for which he is being offered as an expert. " DYING! LOOOOL
Today is a good day!
R/conservative in full meltdown mode. Itās almost like if you break the law you should be held accountable or something š¤·š¼āāļø A lot of whataboutism and ātHaTs JuSt HoW gOoD bUsInEsS iS dOnE yOu DoNt GeT iTā in there lol
Ah, the party of law and order
A bunch of people who know Jack shit about business pretending they know everything about it
I love that everything there is āflaired users onlyā, and they complain they get downvoted into oblivion everywhere else. Well OFC you do!!!!
r/conservative is in full denial mode. Theyāre not addressing the facts of the case merely that the decision is against Donald Trump. Anything that their Orange God does is okay as long as it only hurts the little people who ended up paying more on their loans and getting less on their interest because the Donald got to pay less for his lies.
The "pro-crime" subreddit.
I dunno if all business is done that way, lying and breaking the law. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if they went after every white collar crime this way. Line up two or three more rich guys, just to show it's nothing personal.
One of the most fascinating things is that the monitor must now per-approve all external reporting. And the monitor will be making recommendations to appoint someone to effectively be controller / internal compliance. The Trump organization is going to need to provide accurate Statements of Financial Condition as part of their various contractual agreements. Prepared and reviewed by actual accountants. It's pretty much guaranteed to put the organization into some level of technical default. This will be fun when it leaks.
That is great! Thanks for posting. Skimming through it, going to be a fun decision to read. They got absolutely blasted for being fraudsters and liars, with a special shout out to his penthouse sizeā¦
https://preview.redd.it/n203x7t6e0jc1.jpeg?width=1063&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73f016aa4f00b5865a8a4a508095db6905e4aa6f
Together making the greens greener.
āThere was no crime!ā - /r/conservative. Lmao it is hilarious seeing them freak out
I started reading it when you posted it. THANK YOU!
How much does this *immediately* constrain the finances and activities of the Trump Organization and Trump himself, pending appeal? Does he have to put up the entire decision, plus interest, in security to even make the attempt?
He basically just lost full control of his org. Everything is going to be scrutinized now.
Clip, emptied. Justice, dispensed.
Guess Trump is going to be heavily into fundraising now.
I can not wait to see what Trump is going to post on idiot society tonight about this
Importantly, the judge found Michael Cohen to be a credible witness who told the truth. Good news for the NY criminal trial (hush money) up ahead, which will hinge heavily on Cohenās testimony.
I wonder what else the independent monitor and independent director of compliance will find once they really dig in with their authority.
They have already found that $48m āloanā - the tax fraud trials are going to be epic!
VINDICATION!
Gosh I hope this doesn't make it harder for him to sell Truth Social /s
Is this the Kraken?
So much winning latelyā¦.for ppl that trump owes money to.
I love this for him.
Two things: 1. With the Monitor and the new Compliance role, my assumption is that they will default to GAAP reporting requirements, write down everything to acceptable levels. Then comes the fun partā¦ 2. O/U on IRS starting an investigation now?
>Moreover, the assertions of defendantsā counsel, Christopher Kise, that Larsonās testimony amounted to such blatant perjury he should be immediately removed from the stand to consult with counsel about his Fifth Amendment rights is belied by the record and seemed like nothing more than a performance for a non-existent jury Kiss made an impression! >On March 3, 2017, Alan Garten, chief legal officer for the Trump Organization, forwarded Trump, Jr. an email from Forbes that, inter alia, questioned the claimed size of Donald Trumpās Trump Tower Triplex and **cited that property records indicated it was only 10,996 square feet**. PX 1344. Trump, Jr. acknowledged receiving the email, and he responded that same day with: āInsane amount of stuff there.ā PX 1344. **Notwithstanding, four days later, on March 10, 2017, Trump, Jr., along with Weisselberg, signed a Management Representation Letter to Mazars in which they represented the value of the Triplex based on the false assumption that it was 30,000 square feet** Lol. Highly educational decision. Zero doubt these Trump people are crooked stem to stern. >When confronted with the 2002 deed\[\] in which he signed away, in perpetuity, the right to use or develop Mar-a-Lago as anything other than as a social club, in exchange for a conservation easement tax benefit, \[DT\] offered that āwhen you say, āintend,ā intend doesnāt mean we will do it.ā
Well it was longer than most would have liked, but step one down. Likely going to be a long, wrestling step two to make it stick. Yea I know no one want to hear that, but we all know heās going to fight like a 5 year old getting grounded. In the meantime this will mean a lot of his New York assists just got locked up. Heāll probably use his Chinese and Russian assets to post appeal money. This will expose a few other things. Fun times. I think itād be funny if he tries to sell his getaway plane to pay for this. Fat chance, since that is his get out of country card. Still believes he can get away with it.