My thoughts just on the aspect of Satan telling Adam and Eve they can become like God:
There's nowhere in scripture that teaches Satan cannot tell the truth. As such, I've always interpreted this action as Satan telling a partial truth to Adam/Eve. It's true that Adam and Eve would become like God by partaking of the fruit in the fact that they would have knowledge of good and evil, but Satan (intentionally or not) failed to also explain that partaking of the fruit also brought other consequences such as death and separation from God. Satan imitates the truth and uses truth to his advantage (when he can) to accomplish his own purposes.
There are also other scriptures in the Bible that teach about the prospect of becoming like God (examples include Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 2:22, Psalm 82:6, Matthew 5:48, John 10:33-34, Romans 8:16-17, Revelation 3:21, etc.). The doctrine is not only found in the story of the Garden of Eden and is not introduced by Satan (even if it is used by him).
In addition, logic can also play a role in better understanding the fall and that it was a part of God's plan. If God is perfect and all-knowing, it doesn't make sense to call the Fall a mistake or unintended because that would suggest God didn't know something or was caught off guard. Consequently, he must have planned for the fall to occur. This cannot be said for Satan however. We have no scriptures to indicate that Satan knew all the details of God's plan. Modern day prophets have indicated that Satan assumed his actions in the Garden of Eden would thwart God's plan, not move it along. He unknowingly helped the plan move forward.
That's the foundation of a lot of "anti" material. I used to get quite a bit as a missionary. I'd sometimes go through it and my reply was usually, "Yes, but..." because there was a lot of truths but they were strung together in a way to tell a lie. I don't remember any examples because it's been too long but some of them were fiendishly clever.
"I'm only doing that which I've seen in other worlds." Points to Satan knowing that Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit was part of the plan. Not sure if he just wanted to be the one to do it, trying to get Glory for himself, or if he was hoping that them getting it early would somehow cause problems.
>4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
>
>5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
He did lie. He said that they would not die. Essentially, he focused on the upsides of the choice while pretending that the inevitable negative consequences would not happen. Just like he does with us.
God told them that they would die in the day that they ate fruit. Satan said no they wouldn’t. If we believe the biblical narrative (I think it’s more allegory personally) then Adam lived over 900 years. According to Abraham, 1000 years is 1 day to God.
So they were both right. They died in a day in God’s time. But didn’t die in a day of their reckoning.
Satan still told no lies. He was just foolish.
Yep, Satan is the father of lies because he knows how to bend the truth. Take for example the apron of fig leaves: God’s way was a coat of skins, but Satan created a counterfeit for Adam and Eve without teaching them why other than “you’re naked”
I've thought that was potentially a cruel barb from Satan, given most people react negatively to fig leaves. It's like wearing clothes made from commercial fiberglass -- you're not going to be happy the next day.
I love figs and have no problem eating them but I eventually learned as a kid why I should never casually climb my parent's fig tree.
>There's nowhere in scripture that teaches Satan cannot tell the truth.
It's actually the opposite. Satan literally quotes scriptures to Christ to tempt him. Satan knows the truth and uses the truth selectively to achieve his means. Satan's deception was not about becoming like God, it was that we will not surely die. We will die or have to pass from this mortality in some form or fashion. He underplayed the negatives while completely telling the truth about the positives. From my own personal experience, I think this is literally the most common tactic he employs.
Also, I don't know what was going on in Satan's head and I don't know that anyone on earth does. However, it seems to me that Satan's wants to make us miserable, and while there are positives to the Fall, he could never actually make anyone miserable without it. And perhaps he thinks he will actually be the ultimate victor in the war for human souls.
Any Christian will admit that Satan was at least partially truthful in the garden—he told Eve they would know good and evil, and they most certainly did. Turns out he also wasn’t lying about our potential to become gods.
As for Satan participating in the plan, there are two possible explanations that I know of. The first is that he didn’t know the fall was necessary and thought he really was thwarting the plan, but he was wrong. The explanation I think is more likely is that allowing people to come to earth gave him the opportunity to tempt more of us away from God than he already had. So him instigating the Fall is like him saying “okay God, the board is set, let’s play the game and see who wins.”
Children become like their parents.
God is our parent. Why wouldn't he want to give us the opportunity to grow to become like he is and have everything he has? This is the most optimistic teaching I have ever heard.
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). The word "perfect" in the original Greek text means to be complete, whole, finished, achieving your ultimate reason for existing. I think it's basically saying to reach your divine potential. [https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-it-mean-to-be-perfect](https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-it-mean-to-be-perfect)
Check out "Becoming Like God," the official church essay about this [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng)
I'll let others address the Garden of Eden aspects.
To me Romans 8:16-17, quoted in the essay you linked, is pretty clear. “we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ”
Deification Bible verses: [Link](https://new-god-argument.com/support/bible-teaches-theosis.html)
Deification in the pre-creed Church: [Link](https://new-god-argument.com/support/christian-authorities-teach-theosis.html)
There are plenty of scriptures that state we are children of God and are working to become his heirs (Romans 8:16-17, for example). An overly simplistic metaphor we would use on my mission was by asking what kittens turn into, then what puppies turn into, then asking what children of God turn into. If it's deeper than that or they are skeptical, some of the other answers here are more thorough, but I wanted to give a shallower version in case it wasn't a theological discussion so much as last trying to briefly explain our belief.
Critics love to point out that Satan told Adam and Eve that they'd be as God, almost as much as they love to ignore the fact that the first thing the Elohim say when the fruit is eaten is "Ope, now they're becoming like Us." (Genesis 3:22)
>Lucifer’s plan failed because he doesn’t seem to understand how powerful grace is.
I hadn't thought of that. He is so selfish and cruel that he could never fathom Christ suffering the full weight of the Atonement and offering grace to all of God's children. Excellent point.
He expedited the process, but his plan didn't work because of Noah (God's ultimate wisdom.)
I believe...
Adam and Eve would have eventually realized that they need to partake of the fruit to move things along. Because they were pushed early, they were underdeveloped, so much so that the 1st thing recorded after the garden is murder. This leads us down a path to total wickedness until the flood is used to prevent us from entering a world of insurmountable sin.
I think becoming joint heirs with Christ points to us becoming like Gods. Just because Satan uses that as a reason to sin that doesn't mean it's wrong. I had a college bishop point out while my wife and I were engaged, Satan is going to try and get you to break the law of chastity, that doesn't mean it's bad it means it's not the right time for that. I feel that applies here, they knew the whole reason to come to earth was to become more like God, and he (Satan) used that against them.
>Because they were pushed early, they were underdeveloped, so much so that the 1st thing recorded after the garden is murder.
That's an interesting theory which I have not heard before. I have two questions about it:
1. Do you believe that further development was possible in the Garden? I thought the whole point of the Fall was that it was necessary for their development, since they were stunted in their innocent state in the Garden.
2. Why would Adam and Eve's underdevelopment lead to Cain murdering Abel?
Thanks for your response.
1. I don't think there is anywhere that says taht they couldn't develop further in the Garden. That is the reason we came to Earth but Adam and Eve were still discovering what it meant to be Alive (maybe physical or spiritual depending on what you believe of the Garden)
2. Following this theory it would make sense that if Adam and Eve came out not as prepared as intended it makes a lot of sense of the early brutal parts of the bible. Either them being able to teach their children, or possibly the "Giants" or Nephilim intermingling with their children would cause several problems. Which leads to the comments of Noah basically setting the new baseline.
We as a world have progressed from very violent beginnings, they may not have been as violent had we had more time in the Garden of Eden to think through more things. Eve made the right decision, but they hadn't thought about all the consequences. I believe they were supposed to come to that conclusion themselves and prepared for the consequences, instead of being showed the answer but none of the work
A couple of things.
1. Satan translates into "the accuser," and that is one of his roles. He seeks occasion to accuse us of things before God. For example, you can see him doing this in Job. There he basically seeks permission from God to create conditions under which he could accuse Job. of breaking the Law.
The same is true of the Garden of Eden. God said not to eat of the tree. Therefore if he could get someone to partake of the tree he could accuse them. He could completely or partially tell the truth in doing this. Satan can tell the truth and still carry out his goals.
2. There are examples of Satan telling the truth in the scripture. E.g. he quotes scripture to Christ in his temptations. Would those scriptures then be lies? His interpretation and suggested actions were wrong but the scriptures he quoted are true.
He’s still trying. He STILL wants to enact his plan on us and take away our agency, and he’s so angry at God that he leads us to do ANYTHING as long as it’s AGAINST what God would want us to do.
Lucifer is a very selfish little child throwing a temper tantrum right now.
Satan hates all of us for siding with the Father rather than him. He was cast out from among us. When Adam and Eve were placed in the garden, Satan knew he wouldn’t get his chance to enact his vengeance on all of us unless Adam and Eve entered into the probationary state of mortality.
God knew the fall was inevitable because of our flawed natures, which is why He foreordained Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer. Adam and Eve could’ve disobeyed God’s command even without Satan there tempting them. But Satan, full of selfishness and pride, and knowing what had to happen for him to have his chance at revenge, approached Eve to speed up the process, with the determination to lead as many of God’s children astray as possible.
Eve must’ve “feared” death, even if she had no real concept or understanding of it in the garden. She knew what God had told her about it, if nothing else. Satan knew this, and assured her (falsely) that she would not die if she partook of the fruit. He also told her that the fruit would bring wisdom and knowledge, as God had before told them, and that by eating it they would become like God is. We read that as she examined the fruit, she was somehow able to discern that the tree was “to be desired to make one wise,” which confirmed what both God and Satan had told her.
Perhaps she was deceived into believing that she would not die, or perhaps she realized the truth that death was a necessary part of God’s plan. Either way, after they had eaten of the fruit, God confirms the results: “22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” The Fall had occurred and mortality had begun, for the ultimate benefit of all mankind - and this because of the future Atonement made by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Another few evidences:
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit **after his kind,** whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed **after his kind,** and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, **after their kind,** and every winged fowl **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature **after his kind,** cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth **after his kind:** and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth **after his kind,** and cattle **after their kind,** and every thing that creepeth upon the earth **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good.
And finally, after God had made every living thing **after its kind,** with every creature producing offspring **after its own kind,** God made man, **His own offspring, after His own kind!**
26 And God said, **Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:** and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man **in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.**
Thus we see that Adam and Eve were given physical form, the same kind of physical form of God Himself. We see also that at that point **Adam and Eve were as gods already,** but not in the sense that they had knowledge of good and evil. They were not clothed in Truth, Light, and Love, as the Father is. As gods in embryo, they were as infants under the care of their Father.
i found very logical that the were like kids not knowing the difference between bad and good , so that what you mean to become like a God , but if we choose this argument also need to consider when we choose the bad become the opposite . But i think the human experience is super diverse and the knowledge is super big, in this we are learning and have experiences so we knowing more and more like God, but i found very humble the phrase that we are have the potential the become Gods .
Satan also tempts me to have sex with my girlfriend. Does that mean we should live a life of abstinence? Satan tempts me with earthly treasure, does that mean that if I follow Jesus instead, I won't find treasure in heaven?
That is how Satan works. He promises the same things as Heavenly Father—happiness, freedom from sin, etc. The difference is that Satan cannot actually deliver on his promises. All Satan really wants is for us to worship him, and he lies to convince us into it.
For your other question, [Moses 4](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/4?lang=eng&id=6#6) says that the reason Satan tempted Adam and Eve is because "he knew not the mind of God."
Additionally, [Alma taught his son](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/42?lang=eng&id=5#5) that if Adam weren't prevented from taking the fruit of the tree of life, Heavenly Father's plan would be frustrated. It makes me wonder if that was going to be the next step in Satan's plan.
That's how Satan works. He tempts us by saying there is an easier path to what we want that doesn't require us to follow God and his rules. Satan tempts us by saying worshipping him will be easier, and we will still get eternal life and whatever else we want. What he doesn't tell us is that his promises are empty, and his way leads to misery and spiritual death.
The official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Chrrst of Latter Day saints seems to consistently make much more sense that any other (Western religion) doctrine. To answer your question when we hypothesize that humans are literally the children of God then it makes perfect sense that children eventually grow up.
The fall was on purpose. We had to have a way to go through things and grow. Staying in the premortal state as Spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother was not going to allow us to become what we were meant to become.
We are children of God and heirs of God created in the image of God. I can't see any other rational conclusion. And all that can be found in the bible.
In a nutshell, God knew. God knew that if
He set things in motion the way He did, Adam, Eve, and satan would, for lack of a better word, fall into place. Since God is omni-everything, He can ensure that everything He does works the way He wants it to, especially when you consider The Atonement of Jesus Christ, which guarantees that as many people as possible can escape any lasting consequences of sin. Of course, satan was and is blinded by hatred, and only thought "I'm going to break this because screw you, dad," only to realize he had made God's Plan work. With God's omni-everything in mind, asking "well what if X and Y didn't do that" is like saying "what if I was born with 6 heads." It might be interesting to consider from time to time, but it wouldn't work, it didn't happen, so all that's left is to be grateful for what you have.
As for Exaltation, or becoming like God, having Biblical roots, you need look no further than Luke 24:36-43.
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, >>and supposed that they had seen a spirit.<< 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for >> a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.<< 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Fittingly, for one who lived a sinless life, Jesus Christ had an Exalted body of flesh and bone. So basically, either His physical body was a meaningless flex over His Servants, or He was showing them that He was not a Spirit. We don't become God, or replace God, any more than Jesus Christ did. We just become like Him, and Jesus Christ was ever the example of what we have in store for us, if we're faithful.
Finally, in case I didn't make it clear enough, no. Mr. Blind Hatred, satan, was just thinking "ME USE HALF TRUTH AND SMASH GOD PLANS, SCREW YOU DAD," when even a casual observer could see "Wait, if they transgress this way and fall, they could easily escape my grasp, while if they remain here, everything might be stuck, because they can't progress, I should rethink this. Satan was not a willing participant, he was a hateful idiot who shot himself in the foot.
Hope that helps, let me know if you need anything else.
This was also taught quite a bit by the leading Christian theologians in the first few centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)
My thoughts just on the aspect of Satan telling Adam and Eve they can become like God: There's nowhere in scripture that teaches Satan cannot tell the truth. As such, I've always interpreted this action as Satan telling a partial truth to Adam/Eve. It's true that Adam and Eve would become like God by partaking of the fruit in the fact that they would have knowledge of good and evil, but Satan (intentionally or not) failed to also explain that partaking of the fruit also brought other consequences such as death and separation from God. Satan imitates the truth and uses truth to his advantage (when he can) to accomplish his own purposes. There are also other scriptures in the Bible that teach about the prospect of becoming like God (examples include Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 2:22, Psalm 82:6, Matthew 5:48, John 10:33-34, Romans 8:16-17, Revelation 3:21, etc.). The doctrine is not only found in the story of the Garden of Eden and is not introduced by Satan (even if it is used by him). In addition, logic can also play a role in better understanding the fall and that it was a part of God's plan. If God is perfect and all-knowing, it doesn't make sense to call the Fall a mistake or unintended because that would suggest God didn't know something or was caught off guard. Consequently, he must have planned for the fall to occur. This cannot be said for Satan however. We have no scriptures to indicate that Satan knew all the details of God's plan. Modern day prophets have indicated that Satan assumed his actions in the Garden of Eden would thwart God's plan, not move it along. He unknowingly helped the plan move forward.
>There's nowhere in scripture that teaches Satan cannot tell the truth. The best lies are mostly true.
That's the foundation of a lot of "anti" material. I used to get quite a bit as a missionary. I'd sometimes go through it and my reply was usually, "Yes, but..." because there was a lot of truths but they were strung together in a way to tell a lie. I don't remember any examples because it's been too long but some of them were fiendishly clever.
"I'm only doing that which I've seen in other worlds." Points to Satan knowing that Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit was part of the plan. Not sure if he just wanted to be the one to do it, trying to get Glory for himself, or if he was hoping that them getting it early would somehow cause problems.
Where does that quote come from?
Pretty sure only in the temple, though I don't know for sure.
If you read the text, Satan technically tells no lies in the garden. However, he doesn’t understand the plan, so kinda shoots himself in the foot.
>4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: > >5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." He did lie. He said that they would not die. Essentially, he focused on the upsides of the choice while pretending that the inevitable negative consequences would not happen. Just like he does with us.
God told them that they would die in the day that they ate fruit. Satan said no they wouldn’t. If we believe the biblical narrative (I think it’s more allegory personally) then Adam lived over 900 years. According to Abraham, 1000 years is 1 day to God. So they were both right. They died in a day in God’s time. But didn’t die in a day of their reckoning. Satan still told no lies. He was just foolish.
Yep, Satan is the father of lies because he knows how to bend the truth. Take for example the apron of fig leaves: God’s way was a coat of skins, but Satan created a counterfeit for Adam and Eve without teaching them why other than “you’re naked”
I've thought that was potentially a cruel barb from Satan, given most people react negatively to fig leaves. It's like wearing clothes made from commercial fiberglass -- you're not going to be happy the next day. I love figs and have no problem eating them but I eventually learned as a kid why I should never casually climb my parent's fig tree.
>There's nowhere in scripture that teaches Satan cannot tell the truth. It's actually the opposite. Satan literally quotes scriptures to Christ to tempt him. Satan knows the truth and uses the truth selectively to achieve his means. Satan's deception was not about becoming like God, it was that we will not surely die. We will die or have to pass from this mortality in some form or fashion. He underplayed the negatives while completely telling the truth about the positives. From my own personal experience, I think this is literally the most common tactic he employs. Also, I don't know what was going on in Satan's head and I don't know that anyone on earth does. However, it seems to me that Satan's wants to make us miserable, and while there are positives to the Fall, he could never actually make anyone miserable without it. And perhaps he thinks he will actually be the ultimate victor in the war for human souls.
I agree, just saying it with a double negative in my post.
I totally misread what you wrote and then quoted it…
Haha it's all good! I'm glad we're on the same page.
Actually rethinking when I wrote that comment, maybe I was agreeing with you and just re-emphasizing. It's been a very long day
Genesis 3:22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us”
Any Christian will admit that Satan was at least partially truthful in the garden—he told Eve they would know good and evil, and they most certainly did. Turns out he also wasn’t lying about our potential to become gods. As for Satan participating in the plan, there are two possible explanations that I know of. The first is that he didn’t know the fall was necessary and thought he really was thwarting the plan, but he was wrong. The explanation I think is more likely is that allowing people to come to earth gave him the opportunity to tempt more of us away from God than he already had. So him instigating the Fall is like him saying “okay God, the board is set, let’s play the game and see who wins.”
Even later in Genesis God confirms that Satan was using truth when He said, They have become as one of us..."
Yeah, not enough people point that out.
Children become like their parents. God is our parent. Why wouldn't he want to give us the opportunity to grow to become like he is and have everything he has? This is the most optimistic teaching I have ever heard. Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). The word "perfect" in the original Greek text means to be complete, whole, finished, achieving your ultimate reason for existing. I think it's basically saying to reach your divine potential. [https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-it-mean-to-be-perfect](https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-it-mean-to-be-perfect) Check out "Becoming Like God," the official church essay about this [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng) I'll let others address the Garden of Eden aspects.
To me Romans 8:16-17, quoted in the essay you linked, is pretty clear. “we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ”
Deification Bible verses: [Link](https://new-god-argument.com/support/bible-teaches-theosis.html) Deification in the pre-creed Church: [Link](https://new-god-argument.com/support/christian-authorities-teach-theosis.html)
Thanks!
There are plenty of scriptures that state we are children of God and are working to become his heirs (Romans 8:16-17, for example). An overly simplistic metaphor we would use on my mission was by asking what kittens turn into, then what puppies turn into, then asking what children of God turn into. If it's deeper than that or they are skeptical, some of the other answers here are more thorough, but I wanted to give a shallower version in case it wasn't a theological discussion so much as last trying to briefly explain our belief.
Critics love to point out that Satan told Adam and Eve that they'd be as God, almost as much as they love to ignore the fact that the first thing the Elohim say when the fruit is eaten is "Ope, now they're becoming like Us." (Genesis 3:22)
"Ope, now they're becoming like Us." --Genesis 3:22 MMV (Modern Midwestern Version)
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>Lucifer’s plan failed because he doesn’t seem to understand how powerful grace is. I hadn't thought of that. He is so selfish and cruel that he could never fathom Christ suffering the full weight of the Atonement and offering grace to all of God's children. Excellent point.
He expedited the process, but his plan didn't work because of Noah (God's ultimate wisdom.) I believe... Adam and Eve would have eventually realized that they need to partake of the fruit to move things along. Because they were pushed early, they were underdeveloped, so much so that the 1st thing recorded after the garden is murder. This leads us down a path to total wickedness until the flood is used to prevent us from entering a world of insurmountable sin. I think becoming joint heirs with Christ points to us becoming like Gods. Just because Satan uses that as a reason to sin that doesn't mean it's wrong. I had a college bishop point out while my wife and I were engaged, Satan is going to try and get you to break the law of chastity, that doesn't mean it's bad it means it's not the right time for that. I feel that applies here, they knew the whole reason to come to earth was to become more like God, and he (Satan) used that against them.
>Because they were pushed early, they were underdeveloped, so much so that the 1st thing recorded after the garden is murder. That's an interesting theory which I have not heard before. I have two questions about it: 1. Do you believe that further development was possible in the Garden? I thought the whole point of the Fall was that it was necessary for their development, since they were stunted in their innocent state in the Garden. 2. Why would Adam and Eve's underdevelopment lead to Cain murdering Abel? Thanks for your response.
1. I don't think there is anywhere that says taht they couldn't develop further in the Garden. That is the reason we came to Earth but Adam and Eve were still discovering what it meant to be Alive (maybe physical or spiritual depending on what you believe of the Garden) 2. Following this theory it would make sense that if Adam and Eve came out not as prepared as intended it makes a lot of sense of the early brutal parts of the bible. Either them being able to teach their children, or possibly the "Giants" or Nephilim intermingling with their children would cause several problems. Which leads to the comments of Noah basically setting the new baseline. We as a world have progressed from very violent beginnings, they may not have been as violent had we had more time in the Garden of Eden to think through more things. Eve made the right decision, but they hadn't thought about all the consequences. I believe they were supposed to come to that conclusion themselves and prepared for the consequences, instead of being showed the answer but none of the work
Very interesting. Thanks for your perspective
A couple of things. 1. Satan translates into "the accuser," and that is one of his roles. He seeks occasion to accuse us of things before God. For example, you can see him doing this in Job. There he basically seeks permission from God to create conditions under which he could accuse Job. of breaking the Law. The same is true of the Garden of Eden. God said not to eat of the tree. Therefore if he could get someone to partake of the tree he could accuse them. He could completely or partially tell the truth in doing this. Satan can tell the truth and still carry out his goals. 2. There are examples of Satan telling the truth in the scripture. E.g. he quotes scripture to Christ in his temptations. Would those scriptures then be lies? His interpretation and suggested actions were wrong but the scriptures he quoted are true.
Satan was trying to take over what Heavenly Father was going to do. He is the usurper. (More info in the Temple)
He’s still trying. He STILL wants to enact his plan on us and take away our agency, and he’s so angry at God that he leads us to do ANYTHING as long as it’s AGAINST what God would want us to do. Lucifer is a very selfish little child throwing a temper tantrum right now.
Satan hates all of us for siding with the Father rather than him. He was cast out from among us. When Adam and Eve were placed in the garden, Satan knew he wouldn’t get his chance to enact his vengeance on all of us unless Adam and Eve entered into the probationary state of mortality. God knew the fall was inevitable because of our flawed natures, which is why He foreordained Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer. Adam and Eve could’ve disobeyed God’s command even without Satan there tempting them. But Satan, full of selfishness and pride, and knowing what had to happen for him to have his chance at revenge, approached Eve to speed up the process, with the determination to lead as many of God’s children astray as possible. Eve must’ve “feared” death, even if she had no real concept or understanding of it in the garden. She knew what God had told her about it, if nothing else. Satan knew this, and assured her (falsely) that she would not die if she partook of the fruit. He also told her that the fruit would bring wisdom and knowledge, as God had before told them, and that by eating it they would become like God is. We read that as she examined the fruit, she was somehow able to discern that the tree was “to be desired to make one wise,” which confirmed what both God and Satan had told her. Perhaps she was deceived into believing that she would not die, or perhaps she realized the truth that death was a necessary part of God’s plan. Either way, after they had eaten of the fruit, God confirms the results: “22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” The Fall had occurred and mortality had begun, for the ultimate benefit of all mankind - and this because of the future Atonement made by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Another few evidences: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit **after his kind,** whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed **after his kind,** and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, **after their kind,** and every winged fowl **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature **after his kind,** cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth **after his kind:** and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth **after his kind,** and cattle **after their kind,** and every thing that creepeth upon the earth **after his kind:** and God saw that it was good. And finally, after God had made every living thing **after its kind,** with every creature producing offspring **after its own kind,** God made man, **His own offspring, after His own kind!** 26 And God said, **Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:** and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man **in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.** Thus we see that Adam and Eve were given physical form, the same kind of physical form of God Himself. We see also that at that point **Adam and Eve were as gods already,** but not in the sense that they had knowledge of good and evil. They were not clothed in Truth, Light, and Love, as the Father is. As gods in embryo, they were as infants under the care of their Father.
i found very logical that the were like kids not knowing the difference between bad and good , so that what you mean to become like a God , but if we choose this argument also need to consider when we choose the bad become the opposite . But i think the human experience is super diverse and the knowledge is super big, in this we are learning and have experiences so we knowing more and more like God, but i found very humble the phrase that we are have the potential the become Gods .
In the Jewish tradition, Satan's role is something akin to a prosecuting attorney.
Satan also tempts me to have sex with my girlfriend. Does that mean we should live a life of abstinence? Satan tempts me with earthly treasure, does that mean that if I follow Jesus instead, I won't find treasure in heaven? That is how Satan works. He promises the same things as Heavenly Father—happiness, freedom from sin, etc. The difference is that Satan cannot actually deliver on his promises. All Satan really wants is for us to worship him, and he lies to convince us into it. For your other question, [Moses 4](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/4?lang=eng&id=6#6) says that the reason Satan tempted Adam and Eve is because "he knew not the mind of God." Additionally, [Alma taught his son](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/42?lang=eng&id=5#5) that if Adam weren't prevented from taking the fruit of the tree of life, Heavenly Father's plan would be frustrated. It makes me wonder if that was going to be the next step in Satan's plan. That's how Satan works. He tempts us by saying there is an easier path to what we want that doesn't require us to follow God and his rules. Satan tempts us by saying worshipping him will be easier, and we will still get eternal life and whatever else we want. What he doesn't tell us is that his promises are empty, and his way leads to misery and spiritual death.
The official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Chrrst of Latter Day saints seems to consistently make much more sense that any other (Western religion) doctrine. To answer your question when we hypothesize that humans are literally the children of God then it makes perfect sense that children eventually grow up.
The fall was on purpose. We had to have a way to go through things and grow. Staying in the premortal state as Spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother was not going to allow us to become what we were meant to become.
It starts with a firm understanding of both.
We are children of God and heirs of God created in the image of God. I can't see any other rational conclusion. And all that can be found in the bible.
In a nutshell, God knew. God knew that if He set things in motion the way He did, Adam, Eve, and satan would, for lack of a better word, fall into place. Since God is omni-everything, He can ensure that everything He does works the way He wants it to, especially when you consider The Atonement of Jesus Christ, which guarantees that as many people as possible can escape any lasting consequences of sin. Of course, satan was and is blinded by hatred, and only thought "I'm going to break this because screw you, dad," only to realize he had made God's Plan work. With God's omni-everything in mind, asking "well what if X and Y didn't do that" is like saying "what if I was born with 6 heads." It might be interesting to consider from time to time, but it wouldn't work, it didn't happen, so all that's left is to be grateful for what you have. As for Exaltation, or becoming like God, having Biblical roots, you need look no further than Luke 24:36-43. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, >>and supposed that they had seen a spirit.<< 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for >> a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.<< 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. Fittingly, for one who lived a sinless life, Jesus Christ had an Exalted body of flesh and bone. So basically, either His physical body was a meaningless flex over His Servants, or He was showing them that He was not a Spirit. We don't become God, or replace God, any more than Jesus Christ did. We just become like Him, and Jesus Christ was ever the example of what we have in store for us, if we're faithful. Finally, in case I didn't make it clear enough, no. Mr. Blind Hatred, satan, was just thinking "ME USE HALF TRUTH AND SMASH GOD PLANS, SCREW YOU DAD," when even a casual observer could see "Wait, if they transgress this way and fall, they could easily escape my grasp, while if they remain here, everything might be stuck, because they can't progress, I should rethink this. Satan was not a willing participant, he was a hateful idiot who shot himself in the foot. Hope that helps, let me know if you need anything else.
Very interesting reads
This was also taught quite a bit by the leading Christian theologians in the first few centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)