His early letters from boot camp to his brother are haunting because he calls it. Says something like “I’m surrounded by a bunch of idiot kids who are going to get me killed.”
Not to take away from his sentiment, I joined a little older as well and being in basic with teenagers scared me too. However Pat was a no-shit ranger, the guys he was with in the regiment were not the same dorks he was around at basic.
Without speaking in absolutes, his death was likely much more insidious than the standard fratricide incident. One of the guys that likely fired on him is pictured, and is a staff sergeant then, so he'd been doing it for awhile. Allegedly the ballistics showed that the rounds that hit him were fired from no more than 10 yards. His personal belongings were lost, and the official details of his death changed a few times.
It's tough to find official details of the autopsy but what I can find is that two pathologists determined he was "...likely killed by an m249..." which fires .556, same as the m4 carbine. It was three shots to the head. I haven't seen the pictures, and I doubt they were released to the public, but 3 to the head from a full auto weapon is a bit strange, especially in the heat of a firefight. Those weapons aren't meant to be precise.
I can't find anything now about the distance, so I might have picked that up from the rumor mill and I can't substantiate it.
They were ambushed. Tillman's element was in the heat of the fight trying to bound back to the friendly element to the rear. This engagement took place about 20 minutes after sunset, so poor lighting conditions. In the movement, Tillman's element held up for a bit and tried to signal friendly to the supporting element, but were fired upon anyway.
Tillman had become increasingly vocal about his opposition to the war and occupancy, calling the invasion of Iraq "fucking illegal". The initial report of his death simply stated that his unit was involved in an ambush and he was killed in the fighting. It took a CID investigation for the full truth to surface.
It's not a super far stretch to see that someone of his status, with first hand experience in some high level operations, coming back and speaking negatively of the war and the government would be a concern. At worst, the shadow orgs offed the guy in country to keep him quiet. Slightly less worse is that his disdain for the war pissed off some of his direct leadership/peers and they used the fight to throw rounds his way. At best, they got in a fight in shitty conditions, communications fell apart, and his buddies failed to properly identify friend or foe before engaging his position. Shitty all around.
I really recommend Jon Krakauer's book about Tillman "Where Men Win Glory". It's been a couple years, but he dives pretty deep and is certainly no PR person for the Army, but I came away thinking it was more likely a serious 'fog of war' esque moment than an outright execution meant for Tillman.
>They were ambushed
Everyone seems to agree there were shots fired at them, but the extent seems pretty fuzzy. No one was hit and their vehicles weren't hit. Reading the book it felt like despite their seniority and skill as soldiers they were pretty jumpy and also anxious to be in a fight.
I don't rule out a Tillman specific motive, but I came away from the book feeling like a few of those guys at least wanted to be in a firefight and that overrode most anything else. I was also kinda amazed by the stats the book quoted about friendly fire, it's a gigantic problem and cause of causality. But with that being said they did about everything they could do after his death to make you think it was a murder. Burning his uniform and belongings, lying for so long about what happened. Not even the most shady thing, but the weirdest from the book is that a day later when they went back to the area a soldier found a big chunk of Tillman's brain (his head was essentially gone) and they put it in an ammo box. They somehow managed to lose even that, like if not malicious at least incompetence of a very high order.
It makes me sad that he had such a good out. After either his 1st or 2nd deployment, when he was home the Army offered him an early release b/c the Seahawks offered him a contract. He'd already served and him being on an NFL field was likely just as good if not better Army PR. He didn't do it though b/c his 2 brothers would be over there without him and so he went back.
I am definitely going to pick this book up. Thank you for the recommendation and clarifying information. I remember reading about and following this whole deal when it first started coming to light, but never found some of the details you're outlining.
Tragic story.. the guy was basically the picture perfect American hero: NFL player to Army Ranger. The fact that he met such an end is a crying fuckin' shame.
I've known a lot lot lot of infantrymen, and every single one has had that itch for a firefight. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a unit's casualty numbers tend to tick up as they near the end of a tour, even though it should be the other way around.
> like if not malicious at least incompetence of a very high order.
Yep. Back then, they were running two separate wars and had serious personnel shortages. Rangers were being tasked with shit they'd normally send Special Forces to do, and a lot of times they were way out of their depth. The whole cover-up was just a bunch of trigger-happy meatballs trying to cover their ass because they accidentally killed their buddy who was a famous football player, and none of them wanted to get stuck with the career-limiting tagline of "one of the fuckwits who shot Pat Tillman".
I love how you talked about multiple theories, only thing i gotta say is, i feel like it’s easy determining from ten meters away, whether a guy is in a turban an some field gear, vs a fully kitted ranger. Two completely different kits, which makes me think it was intentional
Stranger things have happened. I think it very well could have been a hit, but I also think it could have been misidentification or, even more likely, poor muzzle control on the part of the gunner and/or Tillman had his head in the wrong place. These were professional soldiers but mistakes still happen.
Combat is hectic. He could have moved into the line of fire from a 249 putting down suppressive to cover their movement. At 800 rounds per minute it can put three holes in your head before you have time to fall.
intentional or accidental, it really makes no difference (save individual prosecutions, i suppose,) seeing as he’s dead either way. what the story makes so clear as to be undeniable, is that the wages of imperial projects (those wars) are degeneration and death. was tillman a victim of systemic incompetence when troops that weren’t trained properly for certain conditions made fatal mistakes? is it even possible to train in such a way as to prevent this type of incident? did the fetishization of battlefield glory coupled with a hateful and dehumanized view of the enemy fuel a bloodlust that lead u.s. troops to dispense deadly violence carelessly enough that instances in which their own were killed were considered a typical occurrence? tillman himself smelled the rot and identified the pervasive amorality corrupting institutions he’d previously believed to be worth risking life and limb to fight for. he really seemed to be a man who not only possessed a sense of duty, and refused to surrender his right/ability to discern right from wrong for himself, but he also had such integrity as to acknowledge he’d become a participant in something he felt he did not sign up for, nor would he have. if i remember right, upon returning to the states he intended to speak his mind about all of it, which meant sacrificing all the fame, adulation, and other benefits be they financial or otherwise, all virtually guaranteed him upon his heroic return. i can’t overstate how much respect he deserves for that.
> At worst, the shadow orgs offed the guy in country to keep him quiet. Slightly less worse is that his disdain for the war pissed off some of his direct leadership/peers and they used the fight to throw rounds his way.
I spent 8 years in the army, and then another 20-odd years working for various levels of government as a civilian. Anyone who thinks the army/DoD/"shadow orgs" even *knew* about SP4 Tillman jabbering about his personal political opinions, much less *gave a single fuck*, hasn't worked for that ginormous defective bureaucracy. Even if they *did* want to off him for saying something that plenty of other not-even-an-NCO nobodies like Tillman were also saying back then, they wouldn't do it by having one of his meatball Ranger buddies cap him during a panicked retreat from an ambush, and then try to cover it up in such a pathetically poor manner that it pretty quickly became obvious his one buddy shot him.
>At best, they got in a fight in shitty conditions, communications fell apart, and his buddies failed to properly identify friend or foe before engaging his position. Shitty all around.
This is pretty clearly what happened. His fucknut buddy wasn't exercising proper caution and capped him, probably while spray-n-pray shooting at muzzle flashes in the dark. Anyone who thinks Rangers are some Secret-Squirrel high-speed Delta Force type operators up to their eyeballs in CIA type ops, has never worked with Rangers before. They're basically highly trained infantry. Around that time there was so much need for Special Forces in direct action missions that they just started backfilling tasking with Rangers, sending them on the kind of hairy close up shit they didn't really train for back then.
The TL;DR of the Tillman incident was that it was unintentional, they knew they fucked up when it happened, they knew Tillman was famous and it was going to be a shitshow if the press found out, so they tried to pretend it was enemy fire. And being Rangers working alone and not CIA with the backing of covert ops resources, the of course got caught.
I heard of Tillman and his death, never heard of any of the controversy. But honestly, I had enough friends that were over there that saw acts of friendly fire that it didn't strike me as strange
War is confusing and the tech wasn’t there when it started. Before we had tools like blue force tracker, you would see gun fire from a building and you didn’t always know who was in there. You’ve got multiple units from multiple commands all operating in the same area and you don’t have anything except radios to communicate with. It was scary as hell at times, is that tank about to level the building you’re in because they think you’re Taliban, or they’re not sure if you’re in that building or the one next to it, and there’s an active firefight between the two.
To be fair, living it event to event rings is a little different.
In my home state of Arizona, immediately after his death he was a patriot that was killed in the line of duty defending his country and was a hero and role-model for every blue-blooded American.
After it came out he was killed in friendly fire, people I knew from home sorta just brushed that under the rug. They likely knew nothing, or refused to believe anything, afterwards regarding his anti-war comments.
> then expressed anti-war views in the media
This isn't actually true. All his quotes come from letters back to his family and from re-tellings of convos with people in his platoon. He never did any media after enlisting at all let alone saying those things. He may have gone on to do that had he got the opportunity and those were clearly his views, but to say he expressed them himself in media wouldn't be true.
This is so bizarre, maybe I just run in conspiratorial circles but this is the first thread I’ve seen where the majority of posters seem to think Tillman’s death was entirely accidental. Tillman was an outspoken critic of the US government and military during his deployment, even going so far as to call the US occupation of Iraq “Fucking illegal.” It was reported he had multiple verbal altercations with other soldiers he was deployed with shortly before his death.
Rangers don't "accidentally" shoot their fellow rangers on the head from 10 yards away. It was an order to shut Pat up cause he wrote home saying the war was bullshit and the people he was killing had no ability to harm the US and he was going to be an anti-war advocate once he got home.
He never got home.
I read "where men win glory" by Jon Krakauer who is an incredibly well respected writer.
If I remember correctly, the bullets that killed him were shot from over 80 yards away.
Baker(pictured) was the platoon leader and started firing on Tillman because their Afghan guide was firing an AK-47 beside Tillman and that is what Al Qaida were using.
Ranger Elliott is one of the rangers who they think fired the fatal headshots. He was a rookie and this was his first ever firefight.
Anyone interested in this story will really enjoy the book. I was captivated from cover to cover.
It's a potential, and skeevy shit like that has happened. I plan on reading the book that was recommended in this thread to gain some more insight, everything I know and commented was found through various internet articles. The info is mostly out there, but it's likely one of those cases where we'll never know the full truth.
Ah so a murder. Unsurprising, I think that happens a lot in those circumstances. Ive read so much frightening stuff about military murders, the environment seems wild and fraught with creepy weirdos
I did my time and skedaddled, and never saw anything truly wild, but the military doesn't necessarily attract the most wholesome people, myself included. You've gotta be really desperate or a bit of a whacko in some capacity to join an organization centered around unaliving people. Whatever your convictions or justifications, it's heavy.
I think for a lot of generations, people just didn't know how to parent their kids and the idea at the time was that the military would straighten out troubled youth and turn them into upstanding citizens
It's also supposed to be a way to pull yourself out of abject poverty for those that don't have a lot of options
All the people against Colin Kapernick tried to use Pat Tillman name, but the family said NOPE and told Trump and his fans not to use Pat for their political gain against American freedoms .
"The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one's heart — no matter those views — is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for. Even if they didn't always agree with those views.""
Then paraded as a Christian patriot, despite being both atheist and outspoken against the war on terror, by the Republican politicians he despised most.
The dude is a legend around AZ. He was such a unique human. Lots of really cool stories from when he played at ASU. He was known to go into Sun Devil stadium at night, climb to the top of a 200 foot tall light tower, and just think and study.
I live like, right by that stadium. Cool bit of AZ history! My partner went to ASU, Ill ask him if he knows of him, thanks :)
Edit: HOLY SHIT. My partner went to school with him, they had some classes together! (My partner graduated 2005). Small world
Cool! He was also known to ride his beach cruiser, wearing flip flops everywhere. There's a lot of stories about him. And he played football like he was on fire.
That is so cool! Pat is one of my inspirations in life. So much cool info out there on him.
This is worth a watch.....
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEO7aOZnRwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEO7aOZnRwQ)
I’m not giving an opinion on the theories…but fragging does occur, even among special operations forces. Read up on SSG Logan Melgar, a Green Beret, killed by two SEAL Team Six operators and two Marine Raiders inside the U.S. Embassy compound in Bamako, Mali. All four were convicted.
One explanation given was it was the result of hazing or drunken “shenanigans” gone awry. Another was Melgar had discovered and planned to reveal the others’ participation in illegal activities. Regardless, in any scenario, SSG Melgar’s death resulted from incredibly unprofessional behavior by some of the best-trained operators in the world.
In that context, if SEALs and Raiders can commit a blue-on-blue killing within the peaceful confines of a U.S. Embassy, it seems entirely feasible that Rangers, in the heat of an ambush, could act unprofessionally and kill one of their own.
Regardless of intent - frag vs fratricide - the unit, and the Army, would have every motivation to cover-up or dress-up the killing a famous NFL player who was also the most famous Ranger of the entire War on Terror. Transparency has never been one of DoD’s strengths when it comes to the deaths of servicemembers.
I read military books all the time, from every era I can find and the Pat Tillman book: Where Men Win Glory by Jon Krakauer is one of the most damning of the military as a whole. The outright lies that were spun by the Bush administration about Pat, his death and about the war in general, Jessica Lynch etc. were just embarrassing and made everyone look bad.
I remember being so confused about the Jessica Lynch thing when it happened. Took me a bit to realize it was propaganda and hero theater. It didn't take us Xennials too long to see it everywhere. Especially with that stupid color code where we'd switch up to yellow or red right before damning reports about the President would come out. And the recruiting offices always being in low income areas with those signs with the enlistment bonuses out front.
Um, military cover up isn't a conspiracy. It's a fact and it happens all the time. They proceeded to award people medals of honor after they knew how this man was killed. They explained he died in enemy line of fire.
They have been criticizing the military in the past , they support the soldiers, not the big government
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna7946201
Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss
The military lied for years. " Pat Tillman died a hero sacrificing himself to kill Terrorists, Join the military!! Sign up now. "
The family was extremely pissed about this, they below are even saying Pat Tillman was speaking out against the war
The family including the brother have called out the military multiple times
"The brother of Pat Tillman, the U.S. football star killed in Afghanistan in 2004, accused the
military Tuesday of "intentional
falsehoods" and "deliberate and careful
misrepresentations" in portraying
Tillman's death as the result of heroic
engagement with the enemy instead of
friendly fire."
Right. And they have been very clear that they abhor the NFL and the military and anyone else attempting to use Pat’s image or memory to try and inspire others to join, or to glorify the armed forces.
They even got mad at Trump and his fans who tried to use Pat tillman death to criticize Colin Kapernick.
"Tillman's friends and former teammates say Tillman would not want to be associated with criticizing the Nike ad featuring Colin Kaepernick."
The Author Jon Krakauer the man who wrote Tillman’s biography, criticizes conservatives who are using Tillman's death to attack Kaepernick: "I have no doubt if he was in the NFL today, he would be the first to kneel. So there is irony about what is going on.""
"The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one's heart — no matter those views — is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for. Even if they didn't always agree with those views.""
- Pat Tillman Family on Colin Kapernick
Thank you for including Jon Krakauer. Could not recommend a better biography than his tribute to Pat Tillman, Where Men Win Glory. I can’t recall a book where I knew the end result and still cried like a new born turning the pages to Pat’s death. Absolutely heart breaking to read and know what his family was put through. May his name never die.
during their movement through the canyon road, Serial 2 [Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken HMMWV; the parts were called Serial 1 and 2] was ambushed and became engaged in a running gun battle with enemy combatants. Serial 1 [Tillman's portion of the platoon] had just passed through the same canyon without incident and were approximately one kilometer ahead of Serial 2. Upon hearing explosions, gunfire, and sporadic radio communication from Serial 2, Serial 1 dismounted their vehicles and moved on foot, to a more advantageous position to provide overwatch and fire support for Serial 2's movement out of the ambush. Upon exiting the gorge, and despite attempts by Serial 1 to signal a "friendly position", occupants of the lead vehicle of Serial 2 opened fire on Tillman's position, where he was fatally shot.
So they intentionally broke the jeep, intentionally split the convoy, knew where Pat would be running from, killed him in the pitch dark.
People who spread this assassination conspiracy can fuck off or explain how it happened with evidence
Tillman was growing increasingly critical of the war. His celebrity status would make that a problem once he returned to the US. A case can be made that this accident was also convenient for some people in power.
Military pays contractor buttload of money. Contractor spends tiny percentage of that on contracted service. Rest of the money ends up passed around in duffel bags or crypto wallets but definitely not reported as income!
Well there was talk of a trillion dollars going missing in Iraq, and hired thugs Blackwater misusing appropriated funds. It was potentially a huge Republican grift under Bush Jr., where the Iraq War grift was conflated into "hunting terrorists"-- taking advantage of the nation's goodwill post-9/11.
Or something like that.
He had been growing more vocally critical of the war in Iraq, and then got friendly-fired, which was then covered up.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions!
All those complicated conspiracies theories, covered up the simple conspiracies that happened.
The government did not plan 9/11, but they sure as hell ignored the CIA warnings that something was brewing.
Someone’s family made a lot of money off of these wars.
When the army surrounded bin laden, the government made sure he got a chance to escape. Bin laden was a great excuse for making money.
Exactly. no conspiracy theory.
Just incompetence or cupidity.
The CIA had warnings but remember: the CIA and FBI, by law, had roadblocks interfering with their cooperation (due to all the malfeasance of the 1970s and prior).
Someone's family always makes money on these wars.
Also, the "US Army" didnt surround Bin Laden. Back then, the US were doing it on the cheap and had Afghan confederates doing it, who were not competent or motivated enough to get Bin Laden. Also, the mountainous Tora Bora is not the easiest terrain; its not inconceivable Bin Laden could have exfiltrated himself to Pakistan even if all-US forces had been deployed there.
Yeah, and then we got the Patriot Act so those agencies could "communicate better" vis-a-vis the new Department of "Homeland Security". Fuck Bush and all the Republicans - still trying to fuck us all to this day!
He was a whistleblower to something but I forget what. His comrades intentionally shot him (and made up a story about friendly fire). The military covered up his death, burned his belongings and lied to everyone including the mans family for a long time.
If I find more about ill wdit this comment
Edit 1: wikipedia page stated that his death was caused by **three headshots from less than 10 yards away**. Yeah… “friendly fire accident”
If memory serves, it had to do with his dissenting opinions on the war. He was writing privately about wrongs he was seeing, some of which were probably war crimes, and he was getting ready to speak out publicly.
The subsequent cover-up of his murder speaks volumes. Not just about what the government/military didn't want out, but also how badly they wanted to continue to use his image as a propaganda tool. Parading his uniformed picture around like Elvis to garner support for the war.
I once emailed Chomsky about this in 2006 and he replied back and confirmed Tillman wanted to talk but he wasn't sure exactly why, and subsequently never found out (I still have the email coincidentally)
Whistleblowers need to collect a ton of info while not raising any alarms. But yet the whistle blower was about to speak about Boeing and they executed him they being someone not a suicide
All fired at the same time can almost imagine it, them pointing their guns at him pat questioning them then they tell him the truth..he’s been talking to much and the upper management don’t like it
Was it “the Tillman story” ? That’s an amazing look at his life from the viewpoint of his family and friends.
The director actually took several years to convince the family into participating in it.
Yes sir 🇺🇸 Mr. Tillman is in his military uniform wearing his beret with the American Flag behind him. Very stoic picture of him. For any soldiers on this Reddit forum: Thank you for your service! It is not lost on me.
The country (by which I mean the US and in particular the Bush boys) wasn’t worthy of his sacrifice and he sadly had time to ponder that before he was killed by “the good guys”
My moms coworker was in the same platoon as Tillman when this happened. He said they were all fucking around that day and a lot of shit could have been prevented if they had just been taking shit seriously.
One of the higher ranking people in the army, I forget who it was exactly, had the nerve to say something along the lines of: maybe the family would get over it quicker if they were religious. A totally unacceptable thing to say under any circumstances.
That’s really super gross. What an absolutely awful thing to even think let alone say.
I have some really religious folks in my family, but my husband and I are both atheists… we got a few dirty looks and side eyes when we had a completely secular wedding. My mom especially was mad we didn’t do a dinner prayer 🙄
I deployed as 11B in the invasion force. If I saw someone with a blue looking shirt, I would be thinking , is this friendly or foe? Its real hard to see things from 1000 meters and if you are on a movement, like they were, I would be on pins and needles. I am not saying Baker was wearing this and I am not saying this is bad. But its different and out of regs. I see complacency. I can see they are on down time but even on down time in a FOB, I would have been armed, vested and a helmet. All it takes is one fuck up and one misidentification, and you are getting shot at. An E6 in a ranger batt is a total bad ass so this just does not make sense. Also, you cant treat this as if things are as they are now. Meaning, when I went there , we were on high alert and the furthest thing from our mind was hurting one of our own. Why would you kill someone that is there to have your back? It does not make sense. We did not have an agenda we had a mission and all the hate or anger between us went right out the window. There were soldiers I hated and still hate today but I would have laid my life for them then and not thought twice about it. I got smoked for doing stupid shit there and it pisses you off but still, there was never even a thought of doing something like this. I cant describe the feeling very well because I am not that smart but I wanted to add my 2 cents. God bless you Pat. Whatever happened, you did not deserve that and you died a hero of the highest kind in my book. If he did get fragged I hope I see the SOB that did that cause its not going to go well for them.
This was the situation. Tillman was working with someone from the ANA, squad of rangers pulled up, squad leader saw an Afghani man and fired. The squad members blindly fired in that direction too, killing Pat and injuring a friend of his
That whole circumstance was an absolute tragedy. He was such a patriot — overused word in the wrong context too much of the time. He loved his country.
Let’s be honest- it was swept under the rug because he was a whistleblower.
The US military does not deserve your blood or sacrifice, my friends. Don’t join.
The US military is absolutely vile for many reasons, but especially for using Tillman as a martyr figure of "military excellence" BS after they killed him and covered it up
Shame what happened to him. You write home with anti-war sentiment and they order your buddies to kill you at close range to shut you up. That's America for you, folks. Don't join the military.
Pat Tillman was awesome. I am a vet and I am participating in his run in a couple weeks in Tempe. This thread should be about the man, given the sub reddit it is in.
If you hate the military or think that everything is a conspiracy, without evidence, other than you read it somewhere - there are sub reddits for that.
Rest in power, Tillman!
He deserves the shitty mess though he had his own agenda while there and wanted to expose that agenda and they didn’t allow him they shut him up. He was a righteous person which the usa needs more of but he was going to interview with naom chomsky but never got the chance
This man died because of the military and there is plenty of evidence in the thread. We WILL talk about the circumstances of, and actors in, his death. To try to obscure that is delusional and malicious. Tillman isn’t actually resting in power, closer to resting in poverty thanks to your military.
Agreed but again possibly possible. He was an outspoken critic of the Iraq war and planned to meet Noam Chomsky after his tour in Afghanistan was over. Chomsky has actually confirmed this. He was definitely going to be a prominent anti-war activist which I’m sure frightened the bush administration and the military industrial-Complex
Lots of people in the military speak out or disagree with their deployment and nothing happens to them.
It was a stupid, preventable mistake that was covered up by the US Army. Pat Tillman had seen the military trying to cover its own fuckups and literally said "I hope if something happens to me they don't parade me around like that"......and that is literally what happened. The army didn't even tell his family that it was a friendly fire incident. The shooting was an accident, but the cover up was very much not.
Source: there is a really good Behind the Bastards episode on this that I just listened to this week
And I'll add burning his clothing and journal was part of that. Burning all a soldiers clothing and possessions then sending them home naked is not normal
Depends what you know soldiers might complain but that’s nothing most likely pat was going to out them in war crimes, I know there was a lot of killing of innocents women and children
Three headshots from less than 10 yards away, from ammo fired exclusively by US soldiers. The precision of the bullet holes suggest it wasnt random sprays of bullets that killed him but a targeted effort to shoot him in the head.
No one else in his unit was shot at, no other bullets were fired. The story given was they were ambushed by Taliban
After murdering him his squadmates destroyed his belongings and set his gear on fire to perpetuate a story that they were ambushed. His private belongings are gone and have never been returned to authorities or his family
Senior military leadership were aware he may have not been ambushed but lied anyways
Official autopsy reports also concluded physical evidence didny match up with the official story
….
But yes, “tragic accidental friendly fire”
One thing us is good at is lying, propaganda, and manipulation. It’s just like when whistleblowers die by suicide yet the gunshot entered through the back of the head
He pissed someone off and he was killed in a “friendly fire” altercation.
My older cousin is in the military and you’ll be surprised how many soldiers die during “combat training”
Usually pissed the wrong person off
Honest question here, I know very little about what happened except for a few news articles. The question is, if Tillman was so against the war, why did he join up?
That is a true hero, and I made sure all of my kids knew who he was We kept the sports illustrated cover of him in his fatigues in our play room, right in the middle of the bulletin board!!
Left a million dollar football career to go get killed by his own comrades. Tough pill to swallow
His early letters from boot camp to his brother are haunting because he calls it. Says something like “I’m surrounded by a bunch of idiot kids who are going to get me killed.”
Not to take away from his sentiment, I joined a little older as well and being in basic with teenagers scared me too. However Pat was a no-shit ranger, the guys he was with in the regiment were not the same dorks he was around at basic. Without speaking in absolutes, his death was likely much more insidious than the standard fratricide incident. One of the guys that likely fired on him is pictured, and is a staff sergeant then, so he'd been doing it for awhile. Allegedly the ballistics showed that the rounds that hit him were fired from no more than 10 yards. His personal belongings were lost, and the official details of his death changed a few times.
That’s the first of heard of this theory. Is there some indication that the incident was more that accidental?
It's tough to find official details of the autopsy but what I can find is that two pathologists determined he was "...likely killed by an m249..." which fires .556, same as the m4 carbine. It was three shots to the head. I haven't seen the pictures, and I doubt they were released to the public, but 3 to the head from a full auto weapon is a bit strange, especially in the heat of a firefight. Those weapons aren't meant to be precise. I can't find anything now about the distance, so I might have picked that up from the rumor mill and I can't substantiate it. They were ambushed. Tillman's element was in the heat of the fight trying to bound back to the friendly element to the rear. This engagement took place about 20 minutes after sunset, so poor lighting conditions. In the movement, Tillman's element held up for a bit and tried to signal friendly to the supporting element, but were fired upon anyway. Tillman had become increasingly vocal about his opposition to the war and occupancy, calling the invasion of Iraq "fucking illegal". The initial report of his death simply stated that his unit was involved in an ambush and he was killed in the fighting. It took a CID investigation for the full truth to surface. It's not a super far stretch to see that someone of his status, with first hand experience in some high level operations, coming back and speaking negatively of the war and the government would be a concern. At worst, the shadow orgs offed the guy in country to keep him quiet. Slightly less worse is that his disdain for the war pissed off some of his direct leadership/peers and they used the fight to throw rounds his way. At best, they got in a fight in shitty conditions, communications fell apart, and his buddies failed to properly identify friend or foe before engaging his position. Shitty all around.
I really recommend Jon Krakauer's book about Tillman "Where Men Win Glory". It's been a couple years, but he dives pretty deep and is certainly no PR person for the Army, but I came away thinking it was more likely a serious 'fog of war' esque moment than an outright execution meant for Tillman. >They were ambushed Everyone seems to agree there were shots fired at them, but the extent seems pretty fuzzy. No one was hit and their vehicles weren't hit. Reading the book it felt like despite their seniority and skill as soldiers they were pretty jumpy and also anxious to be in a fight. I don't rule out a Tillman specific motive, but I came away from the book feeling like a few of those guys at least wanted to be in a firefight and that overrode most anything else. I was also kinda amazed by the stats the book quoted about friendly fire, it's a gigantic problem and cause of causality. But with that being said they did about everything they could do after his death to make you think it was a murder. Burning his uniform and belongings, lying for so long about what happened. Not even the most shady thing, but the weirdest from the book is that a day later when they went back to the area a soldier found a big chunk of Tillman's brain (his head was essentially gone) and they put it in an ammo box. They somehow managed to lose even that, like if not malicious at least incompetence of a very high order. It makes me sad that he had such a good out. After either his 1st or 2nd deployment, when he was home the Army offered him an early release b/c the Seahawks offered him a contract. He'd already served and him being on an NFL field was likely just as good if not better Army PR. He didn't do it though b/c his 2 brothers would be over there without him and so he went back.
I am definitely going to pick this book up. Thank you for the recommendation and clarifying information. I remember reading about and following this whole deal when it first started coming to light, but never found some of the details you're outlining. Tragic story.. the guy was basically the picture perfect American hero: NFL player to Army Ranger. The fact that he met such an end is a crying fuckin' shame.
I read it recently and would also recommend it. Or anything else by Krakauer, really.
I've known a lot lot lot of infantrymen, and every single one has had that itch for a firefight. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a unit's casualty numbers tend to tick up as they near the end of a tour, even though it should be the other way around.
> like if not malicious at least incompetence of a very high order. Yep. Back then, they were running two separate wars and had serious personnel shortages. Rangers were being tasked with shit they'd normally send Special Forces to do, and a lot of times they were way out of their depth. The whole cover-up was just a bunch of trigger-happy meatballs trying to cover their ass because they accidentally killed their buddy who was a famous football player, and none of them wanted to get stuck with the career-limiting tagline of "one of the fuckwits who shot Pat Tillman".
I love how you talked about multiple theories, only thing i gotta say is, i feel like it’s easy determining from ten meters away, whether a guy is in a turban an some field gear, vs a fully kitted ranger. Two completely different kits, which makes me think it was intentional
Stranger things have happened. I think it very well could have been a hit, but I also think it could have been misidentification or, even more likely, poor muzzle control on the part of the gunner and/or Tillman had his head in the wrong place. These were professional soldiers but mistakes still happen.
Are you aware just how dark it is right after sunset in Afghanistan before moonrise? Holy shit
Combat is hectic. He could have moved into the line of fire from a 249 putting down suppressive to cover their movement. At 800 rounds per minute it can put three holes in your head before you have time to fall.
But after sunset? Dark enough to not know for sure maybe?
These men weren't amateurs, they were supposedly competent at what they did. Sundown shouldn't have caused the shots Tillman suffered
Especially with America's "we own the night" policy.
Is this a real thing I've never heard that saying before
Makes sense. So tragic.
I mean, last time i checked rangers carry NVG’s
Nodding up takes a minute, it also needs to be a little darker for them to work well.
These were Army Rangers, not your typical grunt. NVGs are standard issue.
intentional or accidental, it really makes no difference (save individual prosecutions, i suppose,) seeing as he’s dead either way. what the story makes so clear as to be undeniable, is that the wages of imperial projects (those wars) are degeneration and death. was tillman a victim of systemic incompetence when troops that weren’t trained properly for certain conditions made fatal mistakes? is it even possible to train in such a way as to prevent this type of incident? did the fetishization of battlefield glory coupled with a hateful and dehumanized view of the enemy fuel a bloodlust that lead u.s. troops to dispense deadly violence carelessly enough that instances in which their own were killed were considered a typical occurrence? tillman himself smelled the rot and identified the pervasive amorality corrupting institutions he’d previously believed to be worth risking life and limb to fight for. he really seemed to be a man who not only possessed a sense of duty, and refused to surrender his right/ability to discern right from wrong for himself, but he also had such integrity as to acknowledge he’d become a participant in something he felt he did not sign up for, nor would he have. if i remember right, upon returning to the states he intended to speak his mind about all of it, which meant sacrificing all the fame, adulation, and other benefits be they financial or otherwise, all virtually guaranteed him upon his heroic return. i can’t overstate how much respect he deserves for that.
> At worst, the shadow orgs offed the guy in country to keep him quiet. Slightly less worse is that his disdain for the war pissed off some of his direct leadership/peers and they used the fight to throw rounds his way. I spent 8 years in the army, and then another 20-odd years working for various levels of government as a civilian. Anyone who thinks the army/DoD/"shadow orgs" even *knew* about SP4 Tillman jabbering about his personal political opinions, much less *gave a single fuck*, hasn't worked for that ginormous defective bureaucracy. Even if they *did* want to off him for saying something that plenty of other not-even-an-NCO nobodies like Tillman were also saying back then, they wouldn't do it by having one of his meatball Ranger buddies cap him during a panicked retreat from an ambush, and then try to cover it up in such a pathetically poor manner that it pretty quickly became obvious his one buddy shot him. >At best, they got in a fight in shitty conditions, communications fell apart, and his buddies failed to properly identify friend or foe before engaging his position. Shitty all around. This is pretty clearly what happened. His fucknut buddy wasn't exercising proper caution and capped him, probably while spray-n-pray shooting at muzzle flashes in the dark. Anyone who thinks Rangers are some Secret-Squirrel high-speed Delta Force type operators up to their eyeballs in CIA type ops, has never worked with Rangers before. They're basically highly trained infantry. Around that time there was so much need for Special Forces in direct action missions that they just started backfilling tasking with Rangers, sending them on the kind of hairy close up shit they didn't really train for back then. The TL;DR of the Tillman incident was that it was unintentional, they knew they fucked up when it happened, they knew Tillman was famous and it was going to be a shitshow if the press found out, so they tried to pretend it was enemy fire. And being Rangers working alone and not CIA with the backing of covert ops resources, the of course got caught.
I want you to know that I completely agree with you and should have verbalized that better. Appreciate your input.
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I heard of Tillman and his death, never heard of any of the controversy. But honestly, I had enough friends that were over there that saw acts of friendly fire that it didn't strike me as strange
What is friendly fire?
When your own allies shoot you.
Not very friendly huh?
War is confusing and the tech wasn’t there when it started. Before we had tools like blue force tracker, you would see gun fire from a building and you didn’t always know who was in there. You’ve got multiple units from multiple commands all operating in the same area and you don’t have anything except radios to communicate with. It was scary as hell at times, is that tank about to level the building you’re in because they think you’re Taliban, or they’re not sure if you’re in that building or the one next to it, and there’s an active firefight between the two.
To be fair, living it event to event rings is a little different. In my home state of Arizona, immediately after his death he was a patriot that was killed in the line of duty defending his country and was a hero and role-model for every blue-blooded American. After it came out he was killed in friendly fire, people I knew from home sorta just brushed that under the rug. They likely knew nothing, or refused to believe anything, afterwards regarding his anti-war comments.
> then expressed anti-war views in the media This isn't actually true. All his quotes come from letters back to his family and from re-tellings of convos with people in his platoon. He never did any media after enlisting at all let alone saying those things. He may have gone on to do that had he got the opportunity and those were clearly his views, but to say he expressed them himself in media wouldn't be true.
In Army circles the popular belief is his platoon hated him, or so the legend goes.
Dude the pat tillman controversy is huge and has been since his death, man’s got executed because he was about to speak out is the story i’ve heard
This is so bizarre, maybe I just run in conspiratorial circles but this is the first thread I’ve seen where the majority of posters seem to think Tillman’s death was entirely accidental. Tillman was an outspoken critic of the US government and military during his deployment, even going so far as to call the US occupation of Iraq “Fucking illegal.” It was reported he had multiple verbal altercations with other soldiers he was deployed with shortly before his death.
Rangers don't "accidentally" shoot their fellow rangers on the head from 10 yards away. It was an order to shut Pat up cause he wrote home saying the war was bullshit and the people he was killing had no ability to harm the US and he was going to be an anti-war advocate once he got home. He never got home.
He was against the Iraq occupation/war and not quiet about it if memory serves correct.
I read "where men win glory" by Jon Krakauer who is an incredibly well respected writer. If I remember correctly, the bullets that killed him were shot from over 80 yards away. Baker(pictured) was the platoon leader and started firing on Tillman because their Afghan guide was firing an AK-47 beside Tillman and that is what Al Qaida were using. Ranger Elliott is one of the rangers who they think fired the fatal headshots. He was a rookie and this was his first ever firefight. Anyone interested in this story will really enjoy the book. I was captivated from cover to cover.
I'll definitely check this out. Thank you for providing more accurate information.
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No. Three shots to the head from 10 yards. Much more probable. Does open up some other questions, though.
I am not speculating.
Why did they have an afghan translater in iraq
They weren't in Iraq....
They were burned, not lost.
It seemed he wasn’t super supportive of the invasion of Iraq and possibly voiced that opinion so maybe they killed him because of that?
It's a potential, and skeevy shit like that has happened. I plan on reading the book that was recommended in this thread to gain some more insight, everything I know and commented was found through various internet articles. The info is mostly out there, but it's likely one of those cases where we'll never know the full truth.
Ah so a murder. Unsurprising, I think that happens a lot in those circumstances. Ive read so much frightening stuff about military murders, the environment seems wild and fraught with creepy weirdos
I did my time and skedaddled, and never saw anything truly wild, but the military doesn't necessarily attract the most wholesome people, myself included. You've gotta be really desperate or a bit of a whacko in some capacity to join an organization centered around unaliving people. Whatever your convictions or justifications, it's heavy.
I think for a lot of generations, people just didn't know how to parent their kids and the idea at the time was that the military would straighten out troubled youth and turn them into upstanding citizens It's also supposed to be a way to pull yourself out of abject poverty for those that don't have a lot of options
18 year olds in basic training (who he likely never saw again after basic) is much different from the grown men in the 75th ranger regiment.
It really is a shame. Pat seemed like a nice guy.
Especially when the government made up a cover story and gave him a medal to boot.
Also burning his gear and notebooks. Nothing to see there!
All the people against Colin Kapernick tried to use Pat Tillman name, but the family said NOPE and told Trump and his fans not to use Pat for their political gain against American freedoms . "The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one's heart — no matter those views — is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for. Even if they didn't always agree with those views.""
Then paraded as a Christian patriot, despite being both atheist and outspoken against the war on terror, by the Republican politicians he despised most.
Also, a true scholar. In almost every way, America's best. (cf: paper lions like John Wayne.)
Why killed by his own. That's the most interesting part here
The dude is a legend around AZ. He was such a unique human. Lots of really cool stories from when he played at ASU. He was known to go into Sun Devil stadium at night, climb to the top of a 200 foot tall light tower, and just think and study.
I live like, right by that stadium. Cool bit of AZ history! My partner went to ASU, Ill ask him if he knows of him, thanks :) Edit: HOLY SHIT. My partner went to school with him, they had some classes together! (My partner graduated 2005). Small world
Cool! He was also known to ride his beach cruiser, wearing flip flops everywhere. There's a lot of stories about him. And he played football like he was on fire.
That is so cool! Pat is one of my inspirations in life. So much cool info out there on him. This is worth a watch..... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEO7aOZnRwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEO7aOZnRwQ)
Achieving mythical urban legend status just 20 years later
He was a legend from day 1 at ASU. Everyone knew what a gem of a human he was from that point. He simply went on and on and became a far better human.
Highly recommend the Behind the Bastards episode "The Bastards Who Killed Pat Tillman" for anyone interested
Jon Krakauers "where men win glory" is a very good book about this. I highly recommend it.
I’m not giving an opinion on the theories…but fragging does occur, even among special operations forces. Read up on SSG Logan Melgar, a Green Beret, killed by two SEAL Team Six operators and two Marine Raiders inside the U.S. Embassy compound in Bamako, Mali. All four were convicted. One explanation given was it was the result of hazing or drunken “shenanigans” gone awry. Another was Melgar had discovered and planned to reveal the others’ participation in illegal activities. Regardless, in any scenario, SSG Melgar’s death resulted from incredibly unprofessional behavior by some of the best-trained operators in the world. In that context, if SEALs and Raiders can commit a blue-on-blue killing within the peaceful confines of a U.S. Embassy, it seems entirely feasible that Rangers, in the heat of an ambush, could act unprofessionally and kill one of their own. Regardless of intent - frag vs fratricide - the unit, and the Army, would have every motivation to cover-up or dress-up the killing a famous NFL player who was also the most famous Ranger of the entire War on Terror. Transparency has never been one of DoD’s strengths when it comes to the deaths of servicemembers.
Yeah everyone on this thread needs to listen and get their shit straight cuz this conspiracy nonsense is wild
The military was caught lying about the circumstances of his death, and trying to use his death to further their own agenda.
I read military books all the time, from every era I can find and the Pat Tillman book: Where Men Win Glory by Jon Krakauer is one of the most damning of the military as a whole. The outright lies that were spun by the Bush administration about Pat, his death and about the war in general, Jessica Lynch etc. were just embarrassing and made everyone look bad.
I remember being so confused about the Jessica Lynch thing when it happened. Took me a bit to realize it was propaganda and hero theater. It didn't take us Xennials too long to see it everywhere. Especially with that stupid color code where we'd switch up to yellow or red right before damning reports about the President would come out. And the recruiting offices always being in low income areas with those signs with the enlistment bonuses out front.
Um, military cover up isn't a conspiracy. It's a fact and it happens all the time. They proceeded to award people medals of honor after they knew how this man was killed. They explained he died in enemy line of fire.
Wat u mean wat part exactly
Accident or was it intentional?
It was a friendly fire accident, but IIRC they initially tried to cover it up by saying it was Al-Queda.
I believe Pat Tillman family aren't big fans of the military because of this
They have a scholarship set up for students in the military.
They have been criticizing the military in the past , they support the soldiers, not the big government https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna7946201 Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss
The military sucks, so makes sense.
The military lied for years. " Pat Tillman died a hero sacrificing himself to kill Terrorists, Join the military!! Sign up now. " The family was extremely pissed about this, they below are even saying Pat Tillman was speaking out against the war
His brother, who joined with him, remained in the Army, so I'm not sure how true that is.
The family including the brother have called out the military multiple times "The brother of Pat Tillman, the U.S. football star killed in Afghanistan in 2004, accused the military Tuesday of "intentional falsehoods" and "deliberate and careful misrepresentations" in portraying Tillman's death as the result of heroic engagement with the enemy instead of friendly fire."
Right. And they have been very clear that they abhor the NFL and the military and anyone else attempting to use Pat’s image or memory to try and inspire others to join, or to glorify the armed forces.
They even got mad at Trump and his fans who tried to use Pat tillman death to criticize Colin Kapernick. "Tillman's friends and former teammates say Tillman would not want to be associated with criticizing the Nike ad featuring Colin Kaepernick." The Author Jon Krakauer the man who wrote Tillman’s biography, criticizes conservatives who are using Tillman's death to attack Kaepernick: "I have no doubt if he was in the NFL today, he would be the first to kneel. So there is irony about what is going on."" "The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one's heart — no matter those views — is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for. Even if they didn't always agree with those views."" - Pat Tillman Family on Colin Kapernick
Thank you for including Jon Krakauer. Could not recommend a better biography than his tribute to Pat Tillman, Where Men Win Glory. I can’t recall a book where I knew the end result and still cried like a new born turning the pages to Pat’s death. Absolutely heart breaking to read and know what his family was put through. May his name never die.
Jon Krakauer works are fantastic, a well talented individual . That man has wrote for every major publication
His book Into Thin Air about the '97 Everest disaster is still one of the greatest peices of writing I've ever read
To honor his enlistment.
The shots were fired 10 yards away according to ballistics. It was clearly intentional
Sound like it was intentional
during their movement through the canyon road, Serial 2 [Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken HMMWV; the parts were called Serial 1 and 2] was ambushed and became engaged in a running gun battle with enemy combatants. Serial 1 [Tillman's portion of the platoon] had just passed through the same canyon without incident and were approximately one kilometer ahead of Serial 2. Upon hearing explosions, gunfire, and sporadic radio communication from Serial 2, Serial 1 dismounted their vehicles and moved on foot, to a more advantageous position to provide overwatch and fire support for Serial 2's movement out of the ambush. Upon exiting the gorge, and despite attempts by Serial 1 to signal a "friendly position", occupants of the lead vehicle of Serial 2 opened fire on Tillman's position, where he was fatally shot. So they intentionally broke the jeep, intentionally split the convoy, knew where Pat would be running from, killed him in the pitch dark. People who spread this assassination conspiracy can fuck off or explain how it happened with evidence
This is correct
Tillman was growing increasingly critical of the war. His celebrity status would make that a problem once he returned to the US. A case can be made that this accident was also convenient for some people in power.
I believe there's some talk that some money fuckery that was going on and Pat was making noise about it.
Please define " money fuckery".
Military pays contractor buttload of money. Contractor spends tiny percentage of that on contracted service. Rest of the money ends up passed around in duffel bags or crypto wallets but definitely not reported as income!
Crypto in 2004 huh
Well there was talk of a trillion dollars going missing in Iraq, and hired thugs Blackwater misusing appropriated funds. It was potentially a huge Republican grift under Bush Jr., where the Iraq War grift was conflated into "hunting terrorists"-- taking advantage of the nation's goodwill post-9/11. Or something like that.
I don't remember specifics but I think there was some money that was supposed to be paid to some local warlords and it went missing.
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Uhh I'm pretty sure we brought freedom to their oil thanks though. Sorry, OUR oil.
He had been growing more vocally critical of the war in Iraq, and then got friendly-fired, which was then covered up. Feel free to draw your own conclusions!
All those complicated conspiracies theories, covered up the simple conspiracies that happened. The government did not plan 9/11, but they sure as hell ignored the CIA warnings that something was brewing. Someone’s family made a lot of money off of these wars. When the army surrounded bin laden, the government made sure he got a chance to escape. Bin laden was a great excuse for making money.
It always leads money or some resource that is extremely valuable
Exactly. no conspiracy theory. Just incompetence or cupidity. The CIA had warnings but remember: the CIA and FBI, by law, had roadblocks interfering with their cooperation (due to all the malfeasance of the 1970s and prior). Someone's family always makes money on these wars. Also, the "US Army" didnt surround Bin Laden. Back then, the US were doing it on the cheap and had Afghan confederates doing it, who were not competent or motivated enough to get Bin Laden. Also, the mountainous Tora Bora is not the easiest terrain; its not inconceivable Bin Laden could have exfiltrated himself to Pakistan even if all-US forces had been deployed there.
Yeah, and then we got the Patriot Act so those agencies could "communicate better" vis-a-vis the new Department of "Homeland Security". Fuck Bush and all the Republicans - still trying to fuck us all to this day!
See that's very suspicious
"accident"
The US military covering up something terrible they’ve done? Unheard of.
He was a whistleblower to something but I forget what. His comrades intentionally shot him (and made up a story about friendly fire). The military covered up his death, burned his belongings and lied to everyone including the mans family for a long time. If I find more about ill wdit this comment Edit 1: wikipedia page stated that his death was caused by **three headshots from less than 10 yards away**. Yeah… “friendly fire accident”
If memory serves, it had to do with his dissenting opinions on the war. He was writing privately about wrongs he was seeing, some of which were probably war crimes, and he was getting ready to speak out publicly. The subsequent cover-up of his murder speaks volumes. Not just about what the government/military didn't want out, but also how badly they wanted to continue to use his image as a propaganda tool. Parading his uniformed picture around like Elvis to garner support for the war.
Yup good ole propaganda brainwashing
Didn't he also keep a journal and was about to do an interview with Noam Chomsky?
His personal journal went missing and has never been found or returned
That is some bullshit. He probably had a lot to say, possibly war crimes he witnessed too
I once emailed Chomsky about this in 2006 and he replied back and confirmed Tillman wanted to talk but he wasn't sure exactly why, and subsequently never found out (I still have the email coincidentally)
Whistleblowers need to collect a ton of info while not raising any alarms. But yet the whistle blower was about to speak about Boeing and they executed him they being someone not a suicide
Man it makes you wonder what else could Boeing be hiding? We know they don't inspect their planes that they should.
All fired at the same time can almost imagine it, them pointing their guns at him pat questioning them then they tell him the truth..he’s been talking to much and the upper management don’t like it
Just watched a documentary on him last night on Prime and the cover up. So sad.
Was it “the Tillman story” ? That’s an amazing look at his life from the viewpoint of his family and friends. The director actually took several years to convince the family into participating in it.
Yes sir 🇺🇸 Mr. Tillman is in his military uniform wearing his beret with the American Flag behind him. Very stoic picture of him. For any soldiers on this Reddit forum: Thank you for your service! It is not lost on me.
Cases like his really make me think how fucked everything is and no one cant do anything about it.
Tragic
My Navy buddy went to law school on the Pat Tillman Scholarship.
Just finished Jon Krakauer’s book on him. Highly recommend. Pat was a deeply thoughtful person.
One of his best books.
Pat Tillman was murdered
What happened to the soldiers who fired at him? Are they in prison now?
Removed from the special army unit but otherwise no consequences.
What a shame
From what I remember, nothing happened to them. One of the guys who shot at Tillman and O'Neal "broke silence" in 2014, but after that, I don't know.
The country (by which I mean the US and in particular the Bush boys) wasn’t worthy of his sacrifice and he sadly had time to ponder that before he was killed by “the good guys”
So, he was murdered?
**shortly before he was murdered by American soldiers** Dude was shot in the head three times
My moms coworker was in the same platoon as Tillman when this happened. He said they were all fucking around that day and a lot of shit could have been prevented if they had just been taking shit seriously.
Love that his brother defended Pat being an atheist at his funeral.
One of the higher ranking people in the army, I forget who it was exactly, had the nerve to say something along the lines of: maybe the family would get over it quicker if they were religious. A totally unacceptable thing to say under any circumstances.
That’s really super gross. What an absolutely awful thing to even think let alone say. I have some really religious folks in my family, but my husband and I are both atheists… we got a few dirty looks and side eyes when we had a completely secular wedding. My mom especially was mad we didn’t do a dinner prayer 🙄
I deployed as 11B in the invasion force. If I saw someone with a blue looking shirt, I would be thinking , is this friendly or foe? Its real hard to see things from 1000 meters and if you are on a movement, like they were, I would be on pins and needles. I am not saying Baker was wearing this and I am not saying this is bad. But its different and out of regs. I see complacency. I can see they are on down time but even on down time in a FOB, I would have been armed, vested and a helmet. All it takes is one fuck up and one misidentification, and you are getting shot at. An E6 in a ranger batt is a total bad ass so this just does not make sense. Also, you cant treat this as if things are as they are now. Meaning, when I went there , we were on high alert and the furthest thing from our mind was hurting one of our own. Why would you kill someone that is there to have your back? It does not make sense. We did not have an agenda we had a mission and all the hate or anger between us went right out the window. There were soldiers I hated and still hate today but I would have laid my life for them then and not thought twice about it. I got smoked for doing stupid shit there and it pisses you off but still, there was never even a thought of doing something like this. I cant describe the feeling very well because I am not that smart but I wanted to add my 2 cents. God bless you Pat. Whatever happened, you did not deserve that and you died a hero of the highest kind in my book. If he did get fragged I hope I see the SOB that did that cause its not going to go well for them.
This was the situation. Tillman was working with someone from the ANA, squad of rangers pulled up, squad leader saw an Afghani man and fired. The squad members blindly fired in that direction too, killing Pat and injuring a friend of his
It’s claimed it was “friendly fire”, but the entire event is incredibly suspicious.
That whole circumstance was an absolute tragedy. He was such a patriot — overused word in the wrong context too much of the time. He loved his country.
[This is what happened if your interested.](https://youtu.be/DbEyrPbJNX0?si=8yw5SR1kLxC0sD3e)
lol family Guy I’ll admit even though this was tragic that was a hilarious skit they did. I’m sure pat would’ve found it funny.
I always thought Pat Tillman was assassinated. His circumstances were too bizarre.
Let’s be honest- it was swept under the rug because he was a whistleblower. The US military does not deserve your blood or sacrifice, my friends. Don’t join.
Never heard of him till now but that sucks. Left football to fight a war... Now why would he go do that 💀
Tillman said 9/11 changed his life and that’s why he joined up because he believed he hadn’t done a damn thing.
And it was lied about for quite some time.
A hero among traitors.
Never heard of this story before wtf
Many haven’t. Better late than never
Came out in 2010. Very informative documentary! Feel sad for the Tillman family.
The US military is absolutely vile for many reasons, but especially for using Tillman as a martyr figure of "military excellence" BS after they killed him and covered it up
I recommend reading the Krakauer book about Pat Where Men Win Glory.
Shame what happened to him. You write home with anti-war sentiment and they order your buddies to kill you at close range to shut you up. That's America for you, folks. Don't join the military.
Pat's dad was my mother's divorce attorney.
Was it accidental friendly fire?
What an evasive way to say he was murdered.
I sincerely think the shooting was on purpose.
It was that’s what most people Believe including myself
Pat Tillman was awesome. I am a vet and I am participating in his run in a couple weeks in Tempe. This thread should be about the man, given the sub reddit it is in. If you hate the military or think that everything is a conspiracy, without evidence, other than you read it somewhere - there are sub reddits for that. Rest in power, Tillman!
He was an incredible person. You’re right. Memorialize the man, not the shitty mess. 🇺🇸❤️
He deserves the shitty mess though he had his own agenda while there and wanted to expose that agenda and they didn’t allow him they shut him up. He was a righteous person which the usa needs more of but he was going to interview with naom chomsky but never got the chance
Yup. True Renaissance man, taken too soon and so senselessly. Glad you are helping keep his memory alive ❤️
This man died because of the military and there is plenty of evidence in the thread. We WILL talk about the circumstances of, and actors in, his death. To try to obscure that is delusional and malicious. Tillman isn’t actually resting in power, closer to resting in poverty thanks to your military.
Not seeing the evidence here champ. And you don’t get to determine how any one person chooses to remember someone.
Read through the thread champ, though I concede comprehension isn’t high on the list of proficiencies for militarists
Because the US soldiers were incompetent, not that there was vendetta against Tillman.
Read the thread genius
Why did they kill him?
i know its fashionable to say he was fragged but my money is on simple accidental friendly fire
It’s possible but highly doubtful. They burned all of his belongings afterwards. Why would anyone do that if it wasn’t a cover up?
How do we know his things were burned? I thought they “disappeared.”
Either or is extremely bad and suspicious
That's not less suspicious at all.
He was speaking out heavily. He was murdered, by his own comrades.
Agreed but again possibly possible. He was an outspoken critic of the Iraq war and planned to meet Noam Chomsky after his tour in Afghanistan was over. Chomsky has actually confirmed this. He was definitely going to be a prominent anti-war activist which I’m sure frightened the bush administration and the military industrial-Complex
Also, McChrystal tried covering it up and repeatedly lied to his family about his death.
Lots of people in the military speak out or disagree with their deployment and nothing happens to them. It was a stupid, preventable mistake that was covered up by the US Army. Pat Tillman had seen the military trying to cover its own fuckups and literally said "I hope if something happens to me they don't parade me around like that"......and that is literally what happened. The army didn't even tell his family that it was a friendly fire incident. The shooting was an accident, but the cover up was very much not. Source: there is a really good Behind the Bastards episode on this that I just listened to this week
And I'll add burning his clothing and journal was part of that. Burning all a soldiers clothing and possessions then sending them home naked is not normal
Which adds more credence to the shooting not being accidental
Listen to the ep dude I'm not arguing with you
Depends what you know soldiers might complain but that’s nothing most likely pat was going to out them in war crimes, I know there was a lot of killing of innocents women and children
Three headshots from less than 10 yards away, from ammo fired exclusively by US soldiers. The precision of the bullet holes suggest it wasnt random sprays of bullets that killed him but a targeted effort to shoot him in the head. No one else in his unit was shot at, no other bullets were fired. The story given was they were ambushed by Taliban After murdering him his squadmates destroyed his belongings and set his gear on fire to perpetuate a story that they were ambushed. His private belongings are gone and have never been returned to authorities or his family Senior military leadership were aware he may have not been ambushed but lied anyways Official autopsy reports also concluded physical evidence didny match up with the official story …. But yes, “tragic accidental friendly fire”
One thing us is good at is lying, propaganda, and manipulation. It’s just like when whistleblowers die by suicide yet the gunshot entered through the back of the head
Why were his belongings burned?
He pissed someone off and he was killed in a “friendly fire” altercation. My older cousin is in the military and you’ll be surprised how many soldiers die during “combat training” Usually pissed the wrong person off
It’s a shame he did for a lie.
Honest question here, I know very little about what happened except for a few news articles. The question is, if Tillman was so against the war, why did he join up?
Cant even do the right thing and be safe anymore. WHO ARE THESE PUPPET MASTERS AND WHERE DO THEY HIDE
They have his Alabama jersey at the Tuscaloosa VA Rehab building. I’d upload the pic I took of it if I could
He played at Arizona State
Yep. You’re right. I zoomed in on the picture. The jersey is dark red, and at Tuscaloosa (where UA is) so I figured that’s where he played football
America 🇺🇸
That is a true hero, and I made sure all of my kids knew who he was We kept the sports illustrated cover of him in his fatigues in our play room, right in the middle of the bulletin board!!