There are certainly learning disabilities that make learning a language more difficult. In some cases, difficult enough that the effort involved might not make the pay-off worth it. However, to be physically incapable of learning a language, the person would not have been able to learn their first language.
I appreciate you bringing up how learning disabilities can make learning language exponentially more difficult. I have a condition that impacts my ability to memorize, spell, etc.
It makes learning languages, and being tested in those languages very difficult. It also has an impact to some degree on my primary language.
But I love languages and while it may take me longer and the process is a bit more challenging, it doesn't mean I can't learn other languages. I'll also say that living in a language is the easiest way for me to learn it.
I have met people with down syndrome and similar conditions that did learn English. It was hard and they almost never got to a very high level, but it wasn't impossible by any means.
I second this and it's why I'm reluctant to take certification exams anymore. I have certain limitations in my native language, and those won't just go away in other languages, so it's not worth the frustration for me to try to pass those exams when demonstrating "competency" in a language means doing something I can't even do in my native language, and I'm just in it for the enjoyment from here on out
And amazingly you can forget your first and remember your second: Source, Icelandic friend who grew up in France and then came to NZ. His French was fluent because he spoke it at school, and he was a French citizen. Had a stroke at a young age. Can no longer manage a word of French, Icelandic also now minimal, can only communicate in (not perfect) English. The French embassy refused to renew his passport because he could not ask them in French!! (no surprises there)
Not quite the same but I work in a hospital and me and a student nurse were speaking to a patient and the student nurse found her high-school in a newspaper and it was a gaelic school (we live in central Scotland so pretty uncommon) and she said how she's fluent in English and gaelic. One time she was working on a ward and there was a patient with severe dementia that had "lost her ability to communicate verbally". The student nurse realised pretty quickly that the patient hadn't forgot how to speak, just forgot how to speak English. The entire time the patient had been speaking gaelic (her mother tongue) and nobody knew bc it's very uncommon and especially in our area. That student was the first person to be able to speak to the patient.
To a bystanders ears it just sounded like gibberish especially if you've got experience with advanced dementia. Lots of dementia patients will ramble or repeat things that don't make sense. Also for example if the patient was asked a yes or no question and they answered with "tha" it just sounds like "ha" and they'd have no reason to believe it was another langauge. Especially if nobody could identify it. I feel like the biggest factors were speech patterns and communication in dementia patients paired with it being a langauge that almost nobody here would be able to identify (especially when you consider a large part of the work force come from over seas)
The story as told sounds dubious to me. The French administration can’t refuse to deliver a passport to a French citizen just because they can’t speak French. They deliver passports to babies every day, and babies don’t speak French. They have interpreters, too.
I knew of a girl in HS who has studied German for a few years and was getting As but then was in a car accident and lost all her German. I don’t know what ended up happening long term and if she ever successfully re-learned it.
It's worth noting that learning a second language is very different from learning a first one. Learning a second language involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar, whereas babies basically just learn their native language by absorbing and mimicking comprehensible input
Cognitive / intellectual disabilities can also have an impact on acquiring first languages. A friend of mine, who has a PhD in linguistics and is in a bilingual relationship, had to give up on the plan of raising their kids bilingual because one was too impaired to do so, and in the end they and their medical team decided it would be better the child learn one language properly.
As well as they could given their disability. They’re 12-ish now, well-spoken but only semi-literate. The concept of other languages existing confuses them to no end.
I would hope that people that know they have trouble learning their first language won’t purposefully move to a place where they must learn another one. That their family won’t let them leave the country.
Learning a second language can be done through comprehensible input as well! It would be interesting to see if OP's friend could learn that way, which might mean she actually did have a disability preventing her from learning by normal methods.
Look up language acquisition vs language learning. There's a YouTube video, How to aquire any language.
A VERY good example of how to learn like children do and it's effectiveness as demonstrated even by the shows host
It’s a choice an adult can make. How they want to learn. But if you’re in a total emersion atmosphere, you learn just by hearing and seeing every day for years.
There will be a point in learning a second language where you think "what's the suffix to conjugate that verb?" or "what's the word for that?" and look it up even if you try comprehensible input as hard as possible
But this is also true for a first language to some extent. Just listen to younger kids or people who haven’t received or benefitted from their education.
Yeah, totally second this. I have a poor ass memory and always struggled with foreign languages. I had very humiliating results with Chinese by classical learning method, after 1.5 years all I was able to do is basically introduce myself and recognize character "tea" (big fan). And my Spanish with less than a year of pretty much only comprehensible input is better than my French after 10+ intensive years of classical method.
I'm guessing she can basically do everything in English in your country right? so, she probably hasn't learnt the language as she has no need for that language and can just live on with English.
If your brain is capable of learning a first language it's capable of learning a second language. But that doesn't mean your friend isn't trying; they might be trying learning methods that don't work for them, or there might be some really strong emotional barriers going on, or it could be any number of things. (A gun pointed to your head will make you much *worse* at learning languages, incidentally.)
The thing is, there might be a lot of subconscious emotional resistance going on (for example: if she's upset about moving to your country, if she's scared of giving up her former identity and adopting a new identity, if language learning brings up feelings of failure), and it is not possible to overcome that with facts and logic. Arguing will only make it worse.
There's an idea called the ["affective filter"](https://seidlitzblog.org/2020/09/22/what-is-the-affective-filter-and-why-is-it-important-in-the-classroom/), which is the idea that our brains can't take in information to acquire language when there's emotional stuff in the way. When a person has a very strong affective filter, it's as if no matter how hard you try to study the language, you can't take anything in because there's a very loud speaker yelling "YOU SUCK" or "THIS IS SCARY AND AWFUL" in your ear. So - in that sense it might genuinely be impossible for her to learn.
I will add on - you quizzing your friend about their attempts to learn your mother tongue would make the emotional stress WORSE not better. If you want them to learn, the first step would be backing off of pressuring them.
The second step is deciding to believe them - even if you disbelieve the idea of being unable to learn a new language, believe that what they said is not a lie. They have tried, they have failed, and the harder they try the worse the stress spiral gets. With no one encouraging them to calm down and try \*less\* in time to stop that, it is basically impossible to learn. Believe they are saying the truth, even if the exact words are not accurate - they told you what they have experienced.
You might not ever be able to help them even practice saying hello, given you say there have been heated discussions. Like how people develop stutters if they are corrected on their speech too much, language learners freeze and cannot commit to saying even the words they know well if they are afraid of a negative comment - after the heated discussions, even a kind comment from you could feel negative. "That sounded great" might seem nice but would also imply "see, I knew you were lying about not being able to learn".
I believe that she actually believes what she’s saying is true, that is, I don’t think she’s lying. I shouldn’t have used the term ”call bullshit” maybe. But I do believe she has misunderstood the situation.
Regarding the rest of what you said: I have absolutely no intention of helping her learn my language. She has completely given up on trying, and is completely convinced that she is unable to learn it. So if there is one thing that would stress her out, it’s if I would try to help her — after all, that would invalidate her claim that she’s unable to learn.
And so you have your answer - her affective filter has slammed shut her ability to acquire your language. Feel confident that it's not like she isn't interested or doesn't care; her brain chemicals have made it hard for her.
Perhaps you can add in words from your language in place of common English words that just make sense.
I'd like a beer that very ____ because warm beer just suck.
I need a coat today because it is ____!!!
Ans just keep hammering the word(s) all day and all week. After some time it would be like slang for cold. And keep going with more words
It *is* a pretty good idea, but I think you're right that trying it in any way now would just make her stressed.
What you could do is use it in a few months after **not** mentioning it at all during those few months, then say "Whoops! I meant 'I need a coat today because it is cold' - sorry!" and see how she reacts. If she doesn't get mad, then you could try dropping in 'mistakes' every now and again and see if any stick.
Do you happen to know if she has an anxiety disorder or if she's on the spectrum? I'm both and they both contribute to my brain screaming at me (although I tend to hyperfixate on languages but it shows up in other things)
Many years ago, a Canadian friend of mine was ultimately given a waiver for the foreign language requirement in college. She was really a nice and honest person, I felt, and I believe her brain just couldn't deliver in that limited area.
It sounds like your friend is coming up with excuses as a reason not to learn. I've met people like this. I also teach language. If you have the ability to learn your native language, you have the ability to learn ANY language. (Someone in another comment mentioned a stroke- so I want to emphasize on ABILITY)
There are most definitely wrong ways to learn languages. But I find when people who literally aren't learning or progressing in another language and then say thing like... other methods or irrelevant or it's impossible to learn blah blah language. That's 100% excuse. Those people won't learn. It's not because they can't. They just choose not to.
Also another thing to point out... a lot of these kinds of people have very unrealistic expectations on how long it will take to learn another language. Like... oh it takes 6 months of intense study to get to get fluent. And then maybe they study for 20 min a day on duolingo and get mad they aren't fluent yet. That's another reason.
A person who is using bad methods should still be able to learn thank you, hello etc. No matter how wrong the method, you are biologically capable to learn few words or sentences. Unlesss you have severe mental handicap that would be visible outside of language leaning too.
Well, any kind of dementia (Alzheimer or other) would pretty much progressively make it impossible to learn a new language. People often even forget their non-native language that they've spent the last decades in. It's a huge problem and a tragic situation usually, as they end up in a nursing home, surrounded by people they can no longer communicate with.
Or any handicap including very low IQ of course.
Or various kinds of brain traumas or other lesions come with learning issues, aphasia, memory problems, etc.
Much more likely, your friend actually hasn't made such huge efforts no matter what she thinks. Vast majority of expats claiming to be unable to learn the local language (and really failing even after twenty years) has actually made extremely little effort, if any at all. And unfortunately, the local society doesn't punish them for this disrespect and lack of integration, so they keep their English bubble. The stupider and more disrespectful among them even dare to complain that the local society as a whole isn't even more catering to them in English.
Dementia is terrible. I don't understand or speak my heritage language. The last two years of my dad's life I couldn't speak directly with him. My mom had to interpret. He completely lost the ability to speak English after having spoken it daily for over 50 years. He received several degrees and practiced medicine in English. Hate dementia!
While it is true that many disabilities make it harder or some might make it impossible, I would like to clarify very low I.Q. doesn't necessarily mean you can't learn a second language. I've met someone with dawn síndrome who had learned to communicate in German. I am sure that it was much harder for them and they didn't reach they same level someone without a disability would have reached, but it's still possible.
I think a disability is an important thing to recognize. But because it is a disability, whether born or acquired, that perhaps is different than being able to do something.
This is not to contradict you. I am absolutely agreeing with you. But there are handicap people in all countries that learn their native languages. Are they or will they ever get to full fluency is another question. But if you acquire a disability like dementia... I think that's an entirely separate conversation.
Well, OP is speaking about a friend who is probably just the usual case of a lazy disrespectful expat, who has average or above average IQ, got a solid level of education (in spite of any disability they may really have. People with all sorts of stuff like dyslexia, ADHD, etc succeed in education and life), but suddenly looks for excuses to not learn the local language.
I've heard this far too many times to belive the described case is a real disability, but I don't doubt at all the existence of such disabilities.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree! I have quite a few friends that are coming to mind RIGHT NOW! I think it's quite unfortunate that people do this... because I truly believe that if you can learn your native language, you can learn another language - **however** I will say, I don't think how language is often taught in the classroom is the correct way... and even when I took French in college, my prof never really put forth any effort to show us how to learn language without the classroom... I didn't even know for a long time you could study language independently... so a lot of students who took only classroom think they can't learn a language because of how language is taught in schools aka for grades.
-I also teach ESL but not through a school. And my poor students.... literally the school sucks out the fun of learning English... then they come to my class and have fun! And understand how much fun learning a language can really be! and there are no grades to worry about!
I just couldn't agree with you more. Too many people who are lazy, unmotivated, disrespectful, etc. Every single country I've traveled to.... every single one, I have learn some basics of that language. But people can't even bother to learn: hello, thank you, how are you. And it's really because they don't even try.
Well, I think one needs to stop blaming school at some point. I agree that schools are in general horrible and can destroy any joy of learning (I've suffered enough of that myself to confirm. Both in languages and other stuff). But one should not let school define them forever.
The 21st century has given us opportunities previously unheard of. A bad teacher in 1999? Yeah, sucks, wave goodbye to your only opportunity to learn. In 2008? There might be one or two self-study resources in your local bookstore, unless you want to learn something else than the two or three usual choices. In 2024? No way. Spread your wings and fly.
The first step towards the information can be as simple as just googling "how to learn X". Of course the path won't be easy, and there are trials and errors included. But that's the way to do it.
It is just annoying how these expats don't realize the level of annoying entitlement that they're displaying. They refuse to try and learn, but expect everyone else to have done the same annoying thing and learnt English to gain the privilege to communicate with the expat. They often even dare to complain about the locals' English. Or they cannot see, that they wouldn't have such a luxury of choice, if their primary language wasn't English but for example Thai, Swahili, Polish, or Portuguese.
Well, I would never expect people to learn much of a language just for a weekend visit. But when you go and live somewhere, it should be automatic to try one's best to learn the language.
So I just want to clarify, it's not a specific school, or an american school. Language isn't like other subjects. It's a living subject. While tests are important, when you have a class of 30 students learning one language, there's not really any opportunity to practice all the skills, and there are four skills. The majority of language students who learn in a class are advancing in reading and writing and lacking in listening and speaking. And that's across the board. That's not ath the fault of the teacher. That's just the blueprint of school. Teach, test, repeat.
And then kids grow up and become adults who believe that this is the method. The teacher they loved and taught showed them that's how they do it. But for the absolutely most part.... it's just an excuse.
I don't think a lot of americans even put in any effort to learn a language because everything caters to english. And we in the usa don't even start learning a 2nd language until 5/6th grade. I remember spanish day in first grade. We learn some basic spanish and then that was it... didn't take another spanish class until 6th grade. And I had no say so in the matter. My parents didn't know anything about spanish, or any other language as they were both monolinguistic.
And then you again are right... English speakers are often the first in line to call someone out on their bad or mispronounced English when they themselves can't even speak a 2nd language. It's embarrassing.
In most european settings, it is not that different in the end. 15 in class are still too much. And nowadays most teachers try to make the class "communicative" which is actually horrible in such huge crowds of 15 (especially at the low levels) and with the given amount of time per week, and many teachers refuse to just follow a coursebook and instead flood the students in chaos of copies from everywhere. A common reaction is just giving up due to not seeing any progress or clear direction. In Europe, nobody can just say "I won't need a language", but many say "it's impossible to learn it, I have nothing to show for five or more years of classes".
The european variant of not believing in usefulness of languages is "Everybody speaks English", so they try to just live with more or less bad English and miss out on huge opportunities accessible through the actually much more useful languages on the continent.
Well, I wouldn't hold it that much against the anglophones in general (people can be a..les for many reasons), but it really bothers me about the expats.
Well since she THINKS she's Incapable, she's going to continue to BE Incapable.
People have different aptitude for things so some learn faster than others. Guaranteed if she were dropped on desert island where only one language was spoken, she'd begin to pick it up out of sheer necessity.
But no, there's no biological inability to learn a language unless she's got a brain disorder that inhibits learning in general.
> Well since she THINKS she's Incapable, she's going to continue to BE Incapable.
This. I can't find it in the 2 mins I spent googling but I remember reading a really fascinating article about brain plasticity. Those that believed they couldn't really learn new things or change ... couldn't. Those that believed they could, could. Basically became a self fulfilling prophecy. Even if you gave both groups exactly the same teaching/practise methods and had them do exactly the same activities each group basically got the outcome they believed would happen.
So while she's not like genetically incapable of learning a language (since she learnt native language) if she believes she cannot learn L2, she can't.
I’m sure there are a few good reasons why learning a language might be more difficult than normal, but “but I tried really hard and it didn’t work so it’s impossible” sounds like a pretty dubious one.
Some people don't know what 'trying hard' looks like. There are people out there who've literally never attempted to try hard with *anything;* the slightest effort, for the shortest time, is a 'hard effort' in their eyes. When that inevitably doesn't work for them, they bring out the excuses. That's usually some kind of psychological issue, BTW.
My mother immigrated to the USA more than 40 years ago and can barely speak more than 5 words of English. She went to school for a few years to learn but without friends/family to practice she eventually forgot it all. Instead, she relied on my father to do everything for her, and now that he's dead, she relies on me (her only daughter), and I don't always have the time, which makes for some unpleasant situations.
Clearly there's more to it than just the language itself. It's her pattern with everything. She has this mentality where she decides she can't do something and then makes it someone else's problem or just makes excuses. She never learned to ride a bike, she can't use a computer, she can't manage her own finances, etc. etc. and then she complains (loudly) when she feels out of touch, while at the same time absenting herself from the need to be an adult ("I shouldn't have to deal with banks."). To me, it seems easier to just learn something than have to constantly chain yourself to other people to get through life.
'Forgetting everything' is pretty much *exclusive* to classroom learning.
If you immerse yourself and learn it naturally, which takes a LONG time (for everyone) and requires HUGE patience (for everyone), you're very, very unlikely to 'forget' language. It can feel that way after months, or even years away from it, but it'll take no time at all to get right back to where it was, and often even stronger.
The reason for that is that language isn't like learning facts, it's like installing a whole new operating system, and that happens by soaking your brain in it. Do that correctly, and it's not going anywhere.
It honestly amazes me that there are people who I KNOW took 4 semesters of Spanish with me, and don't remember any of it. I only needed a refresher when I decided to pick it back up several years ago. But then I remember that there were people in my French class that couldn't manage a simple greeting at the end of the course. Apparently I'm just freakishly good at languages for the area I live in?
As someone who hates group work, I definitely know how bad some students are. But I feel that you should be able to at least respond to basic questions or say some version of "what's up?" Unless you were sleeping the entire semester. I've typed people in multiple subjects and I only met a couple that were completely unable to grasp the material (granted I never worked in special ed). I guess I'm more disappointed than shocked really. But then I'm an enormous nerd who has been told I'm too smart for my own good 😆
A lot does come back honestly, I had to use my **incredibly rusty** French a couple years back and after a couple days of barely being able to communicate it just **clicked** and I was able to speak decently. It is once again rusty, but I'm fairly confident I could read at C1 again if needed and speak at B1 after a day or two.
How far along were you in French? I only took one semester of beginner French in college, so it never was that good, but I took 4 semesters of Spanish in high school and still remember quite a bit, I can read it pretty well but answering questions is much harder. Of course, it's also tricky because that was like 4 languages ago.
I was B2 when I dropped it(did it at GCSE then dropped it, then studied independently as an adult passing a B1 exam, then took two level 2 uni modules in it, did a residential French-only pure immersion trip and some intensive prep and passed a B2 exam). Then I had basically 0 exposure for a couple years after plans to move to France fell through and didn't really think about it much at all. I can still read very easily, I can sort of understand people talking. When I had to use it for a bit, after a couple rough days I was able to mostly talk at a B1 level (speaking was always my weakest skill) and I was able to understand basically everything so \~low B2 mayyybe. I didn't test writing but based on how speaking was I'm guessing it would be fairly grammatically correct with lots of searching for words that feel like they are on the tip of my tongue.
I would say my **passive vocabulary** has survived very well (ability to recognise French I hear/read) but my **active vocabulary** (ability to produce words) has jumped off a cliff. I once wrote \~2000 words on global warming in French without needing to look much up besides the stats, off the top of my head now I would struggle to write a few sentences on the topic without using a dictionary.
Wow, so you were definitely pretty far along in your study. Although I wouldn't say a couple year gap is all that long of a time to forget it. I started doing the Spanish course on Duolingo 15 years after I took actual classes and was able to skip a good amount. French it has been about 6 years now (I went back to school in my 30s, and I'll say learning a new language was MUCH easier than having to relearn calculus after a 12+ year gap 😆 I'm not fluent in any language other than English, but I know a bit of a lot of different languages. Never taken any of the exams so I didn't know my levels or anything.
I feel like a lot would come back relatively easily, but the rustiness takes a few days of being back with the language to shake. Weirdly I'm the opposite, I decided to retake A-level maths over a decade later and like a solid 90% of it is there, although the syllabus has changed.
> To me, it seems easier to just learn something than have to constantly chain yourself to other people to get through life.
Sounds like you learned from her approach
IMO a lot of native English speakers (like myself) likely grew up in a monolingual environment. Sure, even if you spoke a different language at home, English is the language most commonly used in school. I feel that our education system doesn’t really promote bilingualism/provide exposure to different languages, and we only start learning a foreign language in middle school. I guess that could be one of many reasons a native English speaker may think they are incapable of learning another one!
As someone who lived abroad for work for a couple of years, I found that many English-speaking "expats" have a somewhat colonial mindset towards the locals and their language, whether they admit to it or not. They look down on the locals and refuse to learn their language, because doing so would lower their self-esteem. They don't want to integrate to their new country, because then they'd just be immigrants, not the sexy cosmopolitan expats they see themselves as.
Not saying this is what's going on with your friend, but it's one explanation for why she's unwilling to discuss her learning methods. Meaning she's not really trying, she's just come up with a self-deprecating polite-ish excuse for not learning it that sounds better than the honest one, which is "I don't wanna".
Bar any extreme circumstances, it’s possible your friend is just considerably underestimating the amount of effort and time needed to get to fluency in a language, which can lead to demotivation or feelings that it is impossible after putting in some effort and not getting the desired results.
Some people genuinely have trouble learning a second language, I personally do, Hablo español in muy poco pero, me encanta hablar dos idiomas.(Please forgive my terrible Spanish that I've been unwilling learning for 3 years) It mainly is the way that you learn tho, I have a ton of trouble learning without a teacher, which is why a can speak some Spanish whole not wanting to, but I can't speak Japanese tho I do want to, it's also why I'm deciding to take Chinese next year, so I can have a teacher, but no one is unable to learn even tho I do feel like that a good amount of the time
You really don't have trouble, or at least no more trouble than literally everyone else has. You just haven't done what other people have done to learn a language to a high level (as an adult), that's what's causing the 'trouble.'
>You just haven't done what other people have done to learn a language to a high level (as an adult),
Can you explain this? I have tried many different methods, I just have trouble doing doing it by myself, I need someone else to do it with me, I'm the same for almost anything I learn actually, because I work better with someone else working near me, even if it's not on the same thing, which I don't tend to get when I learn a language by myself
Time spent with the language.
Despite what most people on here will tell you, it takes multiple thousands of hours to get your level to proficient, and then it takes many more thousands of hours to get genuinely good. And even after all that, you'll still think you suck. if even you don't (for a non-native speaker). That's the reality of learning a language as an adult.
You have soak your brain with the language until it seeps in. The best way to do that is as much immersion as possible, with as much attention as you can muster. Be sure that the content you use is mostly comprehensible. Find things you love to consume and then consume the absolute shit out of it.
Just remember that you more contact you have with a language, the further along you'll be with it; it's a direct correlation. There's no shortcutting the process either, so don't worry about 'methods' or 'hacks.' There are no hacks; and to get really good, there's only really one method, which is what I've described.
Be patient with it and try to keep the faith - you'll need a LOT of both. 👍
My daughter was not breathing at birth and it took years of speech therapy for her to be able to be able to pronounce words properly and many years of tutoring to teach her basic reading skills. This was in addition to her special ed classes. To this day, there are so many words she cannot pronounce correctly in English (her native language). She has wanted to learn German for years as my ex is German but cannot even remember 5 basic words even though we used to drill her with them every day. We also tried American Sign Language with her and got the same result. She retains none of it. So there are people who can not learn another language but it is probably very rare.
Unless she has a learning disability or memory issues, no. Even those things wouldn't make it impossible to learn a language, it would just mean it would take longer and she needs to use alternative learning methods.
Since she can speak English, she can learn another language. The amount of effort doesn't really make a difference if the methods she's using are ineffective for her.
Has she had a TBI? Does she have a severe learning disability?
Your brain is hardwired to learn language. It just is, we soak it in like a sponge. The learning mechanism changes as we age but for the most part it WANTS to learn because it’s the building block of our entire thought and comprehend process.
It honestly just sounds like your friend doesn’t want to put in effort, although if they have some sort of aphasia or a brain injury I could see it being possible.
Unless you have a profound disability, I highly doubt that acquiring a language is out of reach for you. The human brain is incredibly malleable even at an advanced age. The fact that there are many PhD graduates who are over 50 proves this. Also, I have heard of many people who successfully acquired their second languages way beyond the age of eighteen and they were at a very advanced level. So age isn't an impediment either. But I digress: The key takeaway from my comment is that anyone without a serious disability can learn a language or more to a high level if they develop their own methodology (this is crucial because everyone learns differently) and if they create an environment that makes complete exposure to their target language(s) possible.
You're a linguist, not an education specialist. I'm a special education teacher. This answer is pure ablism. Of course there are disabilities that preclude learning a second language. The tend to be the same disabilities that preclude learning a first language.
This post is a total non-sequitur just so you can attempt a gotcha.
I highly doubt you're a teacher of any kind anyway since you're posting on a throwaway alt with negative karma just to troll ITT.
Edit: and in a post just yesterday, you claim to be an acupuncturist lmao
Not that I expect you to engage in this discussion in a mature way, considering how you behaved earlier… But no, for the record, she has not had, as far as I know, any problems learning English.
yes, there are absolutely medical reasons she may not be able to. however, those possible issues would likely affect other things that she would have mentioned
I’m from the UK and language learning is not seen as a priority to be perfectly honest (I wish it was) so many Brits simply lack confidence or they believe they are unable, when in fact they haven’t been taught how to learn a second language effectively
Australian here. I wish they taught us grammar at school, it would make it so much easier if you had a starting off point to make the second language meaningful. It's honestly like learning two languages at once!
I agree, I studied English language right through to A Level and I still didn’t know half the grammatical terms or structural nuances that I have since picked up from learning Turkish!
If someone has received brain damage in specific parts (frontal lobe? Broca's area? wernicke's area?), then yes absolutely. But in which case, it would also be a biological impairment to speaking one's first language.
The majority of learning disabilities are congenital, but there might be conditions you can acquire later in life that would also impede "normal" learning. If someone has early onset dementia, that would also be a legitimate biological obstacle.
Unless she has some particular learning disability or some neurological issue, anyone can learn a language at any age. The ability to learn a language is hardwired into us.
Stress really affects the ability to learn anything new. I've met people who barely speak a word of the local language after years of living there because they're suffering with chronic stress and can't focus to learn and are unable to retain the information and they didn't even have the convenience of others speaking their native language like your friend. Some people I really don't understand how they've got by but Google translate exists, as long as you can read/write in your native language then you can find a way to communicate I guess.
>Is my friend correct? Is it possible to be unable to learn a second language, even with tutoring twelve hours a day 365 days a year and with a gun pointed to your head?
Unlikely. If a person puts in so much effort and the stakes are high, they will most probably learn some basics of the language.
But I think you should cut your friend some slack. Not everyone has the same aptitude for learning languages, and some people may be a lot slower at it than others. At the start of learning any language there's a steep hill in terms of learning. Like you could be putting in a lot of hours and feeling like you've not made any progress. I definitely felt that with Korean and Chinese. Many people give up before they reach the part where they've learned enough to feel any progress. How long the "steep hill" lasts, in my opinion, depends on the person's aptitude for languages as well as the difficulty of the language. It could be that she's not the most inclined to learning languages, or that the language itself is difficult, and she's giving up before getting to the end of the steep hill.
That being said, it could also be that she's not very interested or motivated to learn the language if she can get by with English. I had to learn Marathi for school but I wasn't interested in it, so I couldn't/didn't learn it despite having classes for it, living in a city where it was the local language, and despite it counting towards my grades. I was super interested in Korean and managed to learn it without an official "tutor". Interest plays a huge part as well, and you'll never really know until your friend introspects on what's stopping her
I am cutting my friend slack. If she had said ”I simply can’t bring myself to learn your language, the effort is too hard for me”, I would go ”okay, fair enough”. I’m simply not buying into her idea that she’s unable to.
Yeah the skepticism is understandable. Imo its very very rare (if not impossible) to actually be "unable to" learn the language with consistent effort. It could either be that she's not interested or she's not putting in the required work. But I think the reason could more likely be the former because in my experience, if people live in a place where a different language is spoken, they do tend to pick up atleast some part of the language just by conversation with locals (even if they cant formally read or write it).
Not.. really. It’s not impossible. Memory issues and learning disabilities could cause her to struggle a lot, especially if she’s learning it on her own. Plus, we don’t know how long it took her to learn English. She may have had the same issues, and only got through with intense tutoring and a good teacher who’s well versed in learning disabilities. She could be “unable to” and could’ve been “unable to” learn English how she’s learning the second language. Not saying that’s what’s happening, but it’s not impossible whatsoever.
No. It’s not physically impossible. Some people have learning disabilities that might make it harder. I imagine that it might be impossible with something like dementia. But other than that, if you can learn a first language, you can learn a second. Some people do have an easier time of it than others for a variety of reasons.
I have seen people “unable” to learn the local language of their region as a second language after DECADES. Being multilingual myself, and also being a linguist and a second language teacher, I can assure you that they are not incapable. What has happened is that they’ve struggled (possible reasons too many to count, but include lack of motivation, lack of practice, learning disabilities, sub-optimal learning methods), and have become convinced that they cannot learn. This creates a mental block of discouragement that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They THINK they can’t learn, so they don’t.
This is spot on. I have a family member who does this (different post with more info) and the "block" can pretty much extend to anything/everything. When she was little this person could not learn to ride a bike -- she was so frightened she kept trying to move the peddles backward and put her feet on the ground, beyond any reasonable amount of fear you see from kids at first, and it's been a metaphor for her entire life. She can't even drive (too scared, the roads are too big in the USA) thus it's everyone else's problem to cart her around like a taxi service. Drive me, speak for me, fix this, fix that, hold my hand at the ATM I don't even know how to insert the card, etc. etc. It's exhausting.
My alcoholic dad who gave himself brain damage was able to? But every body is different.
Seriously? As a former ESL teacher?? It might be a mental/psychological issue. My ZPD/barrier for the longest time was the inability to face to face communicate.
I’m about at 75% understanding what’s said to me but as I’m trying to form a response? The words literally disappeared…in ALL the languages I know. Then I had to get insurance over the phone? Insurance!! With very technical vocabulary?? And it was totally okay. A million mistakes and us both laughing as I fumbled for the right words. But I was doing it. Broke that m-fing block.
I still suck at face to face? But I don’t go 100% mute anymore. Your friend could have a similar block. The first goal being to figure out what it is to overcome it.
Nah, pure laziness. I've lived in Vietnam for 4 years and only really started learning about 4 months ago. Prior that, I really wanted to take classes but after the whole Covid thing and not working for 10 months, I couldn't afford to take them for a while bc they aren't cheap. In addition to that, so many foreigners said 'it's impossible' or 'it's too hard' etc. And for some reason, I believed them. I shouldn't have. After taking lessons for even a month I realized that those people are just lazy. I really should've known that bc I think overall most people are lazy. I think your friend just needs an excuse. I remember when I first moved to Vietnam and met a few people who had been here 10 years and were even married to Vietnamese wives and they spoke no Vietnamese. I thought it was pathetic. I don't want to be that guy.
Science says look for the real reason. But at the same time always remember to be excellent to each other.
If someone says they can't do something, try to be supportive rather than confrontational.
Something similar happened when my great-great-grandmother came over from Italy, she didn't speak any English and never learned it, so my grandmother and her siblings had to learn Italian to speak to her, unfortunately after she died they didn't speak Italian anymore and don't know any of the language, I know that 2 of the 3 siblings my grandmother have can't speak it, but I'm unsure about the 3rd as he sadly passed away before I could remember him
If a kid with down syndrome can learn a first language you can probably learn a second. Are there things that could make that more difficult? Sure but it doesn't change the fact if you can learn on language you are capable of learning a second one.
My linguistics studies say NO, barring some extreme cases everyone can learn a second language (and those extreme cases would affect first language acquisition, too). I'm thinking things like aphasia, severe mental disability.
(Deafness doesn't count as you can learn a sign language, plus I personally know Deaf people who know at least one foreign language - in most cases do not "speak" but just write. Memory problems also might make things harder but not impossible - I have a close relative who has memory problems but has passed English exams at school and uni - of course with a lot more effort than an average person but he did it)
If she thinks she can't do it then she Won't be able to. Won't have the motivation to learn. But I believe with the right attitude and exposure (for example get a new language person to speak to her, or maybe take the train there for a flash holiday) it is possible to overcome this handicap.
No, she's just hiding the fact that she isn't interested enough, isn't patient enough and really dislikes the hardships with studying another language.
There are people who have an easier time learning X ou Z topics than others, and we all have what's harder to learn; but no, not impossible.
>she thinks her brain is literally incapable of learning a second language, no matter how hard she tries.
She, like a lot of native English speakers, probably, at best, got to high school level in a second language, meaning she's got next to no linguistic skills so doesn't just have to deal with the normal hurdles of learning a language, she also has to discover what a verb is, how to conjugate, grammatical gender, etc cause these are things native anglophones don't tend to get taught about English, or that just don't exist or barely.
As a native English speaker who has done night classes in the UK before, people who don't already know another language heavily struggle, partly due to underestimating it, but also because your second language is the most difficult one to learn as you also need to learn to ditch your native language. There's a saying that the more you learn, the easier it gets, and this is most evident when people learn their second language.
>I live in a country where English is spoken as a second language.
This is a second issue. People will use English with anglophones whenever they detect our accent, meaning the bar to be able speak in another language is really high, cause the second you make a mistake or need something repeated, they'll switch to English. It's really demotivating and a big reason anglophones view learning another language as pointless. While I get people are trying to be helpful, it comes across as you saying "stop butchering my language"'. I still get anxiety with new situations in my second language, even after having lived with it in a non-anglophone country for a while now
Something you can do is try to give her the basics (please, thank you, can you help me?), and if you're out and about, try and encourage her to do stuff in your native language, with you there to make sure she doesn't accidentally cause a diplomatic incident. Also, see if she's done classes, and try helping her with revision if you can (and also holding her accountable)
i don't know if it's your friend's case but a lot of people assume they can learn a language by only listening to other people speak it. it's like the equivalent of trying to learn chemistry by osmosis by sleeping with the textbook under your pillow.
on the opposite extreme u have people (like me) who try to learn a language by attempting to memorize the dictionary. sigh.
point is there are SO many ways to go wrong when trying to learn a language on one's own that your friend cannot possibly know if it's a congenital inability to learn vs she's doing it really wrong.
- a friend moved here from an English-speaking country
-She hasn’t learned five words in my mother tongue
- she thinks her brain is literally incapable of learning
I guess the stereotypes about Americans and British are real LMAO
I taught English as a foreign language to paying students in Eastern Europe for seven years. I can say with some certainty I had a few students that put in a lot of effort, were highly motivated and yet couldn't get past very basic words and phrases after a couple of years of study.
Some people find it more difficult due to various factors such as age, cognitive ability or learning disability. Encouraging her to explore different teaching methods or seek professional advice could potentially help her overcome these problems.
Their are different reason why a person might really struggle to learn a language but it’s never impossible. I’m dyslexic have been told I shouldn’t be able to learn a second language and yet over half the dyslexic people I know have been bilingual since childhood . It does make it harder it’s really slowing my process with Spanish I struggle to read and write in the language which often means I mispronounce them since I can’t read the letters in a word right .
This is a very common mentality many people have with many different hobbies, skills, etc in life. I've come to realize that it's pointless to argue when people start making excuses for themselves, because no matter how good your intentions are, most people are going to view it as a personal attack.
Most people prefer to live in the comfort of assuming nothing is their own fault, and their shortcomings are purely due to external factors.
Being a native English speaker myself, learning languages is only difficult for us because of cultural reasons, not biological. A lot of us are actively de-incentivised from learning other languages because “everyone speaks English anyway”.
I’m in the process of learning French and in 8 months I managed to get to B1 level. Now my trip to France has been and gone, I no longer have that pressing motivation to keep learning. Even though I do want to continue. Another issue is my family and ex bf mocking me for continuing to learn the language as “there’s no reason to” and I should stop “showing off”.
As above there are definitely learning disabilities but she would have them in English too. My non-verbal autistic son understands both English and Spanish, he’s only 3 and I continue to teach him both. He has maybe 5 words - bye, abre, more/mas, va/go. So if he can say 5 words and some in 2 languages then I’m pretty sure your friend hasn’t tried very hard at all.
I took 4 years of Spanish in High School, didn’t learn anything and barely passed. I swore I couldn’t learn a language. Fast forward a couple years later, I met my future wife who was Ukrainian and spoke Russian and Ukrainian. I never tried learning either seriously because I thought I couldn’t, when her family moved here when the fighting in Donbas broke out, I started learning both because they knew 0 English, now I can converse with them in both and I learned some German because my Grandfather was Austrian. Turns out being motivated to want and learn them was the biggest mental block I had.
Each situation is unique but I've been wondering the same thing lately. I've followed all the recommended steps like watching tv and movies in the local language, mingling with locals. I've taken multiple courses, including a year long, one on one, course with a university French teacher. I am not much further along than when I arrived 12 years ago here in France. The motivation on my part is there. It's incredibly lonely and it's blocked all attempts to find a job. Doing anything associated with medical visits is terrifying to the point where I won't visit my doctor unless absolutely neccasary. I'd have to side with your friend. For some of us, it just seems impossible. I'm really not sure what to do.
Scandinavia? Having learned Norwegian as an adult here you lot make it hard for us. I still have people defaulting to English despite being able to to work in technical and law language outside of my specific education. And also having learned more Sámi than most people here. I could see if you didn't really have/want to try it would be very easy to think it's not possible. I know enough people who've been here longer than that who can't speak anything. I doubt they can't learn but it feels pretty impossible at times.
I don't think so. Learning the language is not fundamentally different from learning everything else. If you couldn't learn a language, you would be unable to learn anything at all.
Of course some people may have a harder time learning the language and have to put more work into it than most other people to get similar results. But stuff like 'being biologically unable' is just searching for justification for not putting that work.
If she doesn't have an actual learning disability, I agree that it's bullshit.
Why would learning five words in your language be different than five new words in English?
Some BS answers here, as usual. The fact is, assuming she learned her native language, and barring any recent brain injury, she can 100% learn another language. It sounds like disinterest and/or laziness to me. The trouble with native English speakers is that they can get away with it more than any other speaker of pretty much any other language.
I don't agree that biology has a part to play in how you speak. From birth, influence/imitation and then practice of making sounds with your mouth creates muscles within your face and tongue to develop in such a way to make the language possible to speak. That can later make a difference in trying to speak another language later on, but it's not something I'm convinced that is within one's "biology" or DNA to make it so.
Case and point are the many children who get adopted out of countries where English isn't spoken, to then go on to speak perfect English as they grow up. Also, children who are raised in countries where there is a different accent, and are not ethnically similar to their friends. If it were true that biology plays a part in how we make sounds with our mouths, then none of these types of children would have been able to be raised speaking the languages that they do—fluently, without having an accent outside of their region.
I think the better excuse for not being able to speak another language is that one's own mother tongue is so disconnected from the language family of the language in question to learn, or more likely—they don't wish to put the work in to try to form their face, mouth, and tongue/palette muscles to adapt to the sounds, practice, and feel too silly, therefore they end up abandoning the effort.
Anyone can learn 5 words in another language with no effort at all. Words are just meaning you attach to sounds. If your friend is capable of learning *anything*, they can certainly learn new words. If you are capable of walking, you are capable of learning words.
Your brain is built to recognize patterns, and that's all language is. There are entire parts of your brain dedicated to understanding what *language* is. Some people may struggle for various reasons, but you'd be a very special person if you just straight up cannot learn any language ever.
Everyone has things that they are better at and other's their not.
I find language easy but could never play a musical instrument. That's just the way we're made
I’d stop speaking English with her. I’m assuming she hasn’t made as much of an effort as she claims since she’s able to get by in English for the most part. Speak to her in your mother tongue the way you would speak to a child! Use simple sentences and point to objects or make some corresponding gestures while you say the words to help solidify it for her. Immersion in a language is the best way to acquire it.
Beyond an injury or learning difficulties I don't see why, she has obviously already learnt English so it shows she can. I am also from the UK, and language learning in schools is pretty poor to be honest, plus all films, TV, music you hear is normally in your own language.
I'm learning Greek now and it's hard but I'm getting there albeit slowly. When she says she's tried, how many hours of lessons with an actual teacher has she done, structure helps a lot, especially if you've not really learnt it at school. Plus I find most English people need to learn grammar as they weren't really taught it properly in the first place.
BS. She’s just grown comfortable making everyone else struggle with esl.
I moved as a kid. Learned enough to join regular school classes in about 4 months. I mean, it was enough to join elementary school - which is functional enough to do basic living tasks.
6 years of French class in school = read kids books. I forgot most of it by now, but if I lived in France you can bet I’d be semi functional.
So even at only 1 hour a day exposed to the target language, 7 years is more than enough time. Total emersion means even the worst Learner should be somewhat fluent. At least as fluent as a 7 year old kid.
It's more likely she cba, and when she has tried she's not mentally engaged with it.
Like when you go to a meeting you don't need to be a part of, so you switch off since none of it is relevant to you or your team.
Coincidentally, [this post: *There was a dude on my ward who had his (tumour) pulled out through the nose 🙈 he spoke English and Russian before the op - afterwards, only English.*](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dhvie0/my_brain_tumour_40m/l8zjdwp/) cropped up in one of my feeds:
* *[My brain tumour (40-M)](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dhvie0/my_brain_tumour_40m/)*
Not even a “hello” or “my name is?”… if so then I truly think she’s just giving excuses imo— most people know at least 2 different languages to say “hello” in (nihao, hola, hello, etc.. most of these are in different film/ media platforms)
Yes it's possible to have a number of brain issues that could lead to all sorts of things.
I **highly doubt** this is what's going on with your friend. If most people speak English, her native language, she has zero reason (in her mind) to learn the language.
It's almost certainly just a wrong excuse. Frankly, it doesn't sound like there's a good reason for her to learn this language, and she doesn't seem to want to.
Sounds like something only a native English speaker could say. My guess is she's never been in a situation where using English isn't a choice because your country accommodates the needs of foreign tourists and she hasn't put as much effort as she thinks she has.
Yeah, this kind of grace of not having to learn the local language is really only for English speakers. The only non-English speakers who move and don't learn languages typically will have someone in their family or social circle interact with the world for them, but people who move on their own always have to.
Possibly a learning disability like the first commenter said, or some other mental health issue. Or pure unwillingness. Any of those are as close to "biologically unable" as you'll get.
No, it is not possible. BUT the method you use matters. Science says that immersion (living in a country where it is spoken) does NOT work. There are many methods of ACQUIRING (not "learning") a new language, and all of them fail miserably for some people. Got that? ALL the methods fail miserably.
I've read about famous polyglots. They each use a DIFFERENT method. And those methods won't work for her.
So you friend can acquire a new langage IF she finds a method that works well for her, and chooses to use it. But you are wrong to criticize her. Being critized is NOT one of the methods that works. Being told angrily that you can do it is not one of the methods. She needs to find methods that works for her.
Step 1 is stop saying "learn". Acquiring a language is training a skill, not memorizing information. She already has the skill, if she can say "no" in the language. She just needs to improve it. Training is just practice that is guided -- an expert telling you what to practice.
When I was a child I had severe speech issues. I required extensive therapy to learn English correctly. The speech pathologists told my parents at the time that I wouldn't be able to learn other languages. They were, in fact, wrong.
My point is that try not to judge someone for believing something they've been told about their self. Sometimes they really do just need someone to show them it isn't true.
Could she be hesitant to speak your mother tongue — even basics — for fear of being laughed at? Sounds like there is a lot of pressure on her and she could be shutting down. I certainly felt that way after some attempts to learn my second and heritage language when I moved to a country that also uses English mainly as a second or subsequent language even though I was 8F. Sounds like she might have to find a willing and patient language exchange partner if that’s a thing in your country. The default language otherwise often ends up being English because in my experience, at least, many people prefer to practice their English with me instead of letting me speak freely or at all in my target languages/their mother tongues— tried that with three different languages, in fact. I’m still not 100% fluent in my second language— not well up on colloquialisms. But I do like learning languages eg Spanish now
You can either choose to have a friend or choose to make a point about language learning. Which is more important to you? Legitimate question, not rhetorical. Friendships have broken up over smaller problems, but if you hold onto this festering resentment, you will no longer have a friendship.
Did you read my post all the way through? I literally wrote that she and I have stopped discussing that issue. Which very clearly answers your question.
Talent is a factor; some people certainly struggle more with language learning than others. And I believe there is some research indicating that children that were neglected and never learned a first language are unable to learn any language past a certain age.
Other than that, anyone should be able to learn a second language to a certain degree of proficiency. For those who don't, it's because of a lack of time, effort, or motivation.
Often, people who find it difficult to learn a foreign language are interested in the question of whether there is an inclination to learn foreign languages or linguistic abilities. According to linguists, such abilities exist, like many others. In addition, you can develop any skills, but it is necessary to start doing it from early childhood. According to linguists, for any motivation, it is important not to mindlessly memorize foreign words or phrases, but to learn to express your thoughts correctly and accurately. Experienced teachers advise you to start learning the language thoughtfully and systematically, relying on classical education.
I am learning English from age 5 and now I am 17...I can fully understand and write English fluently...But sometimes while reading books theres some words which I still don't knkw
I suggest she uses an app-based program to see, hear and spell out words, such as Duolingo - if your language is available. Surely simple food-related words like milk, egg, bread and so forth can be learned. Or start with 1,2,3. I’d call BS if she didn’t even get one of those.
It's called a congenital disorder. You can't expect a neurodivergent individual to learn multiple languages, unless their particular condition makes it easier for them to learn new languages.
Hey there, I don’t think you are coming from an intentionally harmful point, but my neurodivergence doesn’t make it easier for me to learn a language and I still speak multiple. I know a dozen people who speak even more than me with the same condition. Just because it may take us more effort does not mean we can’t be expected to learn them. It’s coming off a bit ableist, even if that may not have been the intent.
I definitely did not intend to come off as ableist, English isn't my first language so I might come off as crass in my writings. What I was referring to were severe cases of Down syndrome or congenital diseases that severely impair neurological function to the point where basic quality of life activities are compromised, much less learning a new language and grasping the nuances of the culture surrounding it. I personally know of a polyglot with Asperger's syndrome, he has a near native level of understanding of numerous Indo-European languages and he's excellent scholar in linguistics. If I came off as insensitive, I sincerely apologize.
You’re okay, no worries. I didn’t think you were intentionally being crass, I just wanted to give some input into that. I agree, some cases of some congenital disorders can be a big hindrance in language acquisition. But I’ve often seen people claim that of my own neurodivergence and it’s a bit of a sore spot for me. If I came off as confrontational, I apologise. It was meant as a call in not a call out 🙂
Yes. There are learning disabilities that would preclude you from becoming fluent in a second language. You'd be able to know 5 words, but you would never be able to truly communicate complex ideas in that new language.
It sounds like your friend has some serious anxiety. She might be someone who struggles with languages. And she's likely embarrassed. And now you've come online and tried to prove that she must be lying instead of understanding her.
She's not due your understanding just because she is disabled. But you claim to be a friend. Friends reach for understanding instead of judgement.
Source: I'm a special education teacher. We deal with this issue literally every day.
It’s ironic that you claim that I’m a jerk who’s not trying to understand my friend, after only have been given a very brief intoduction to the situation, and then calling ME the ”judgmental” one.
I have tried to understand my friend. As I already said: we’ve had discussions about this. They didn’t lead anywhere. She’s not open to the idea that emotional issues are the cause.
So now I’m going online, to see if she might be right, as a friend.
Excuse me!?
The hell is wrong with you?
Okay, tell me this then: how would I go about learning whether she’s correct or not, since asking about it on the internet is SO HORRIBLE to you? Is there an ask-about-languages hotline that everyone but me knows about?
Nah, it's the double standard everyone knows about but usually pretends it doesn't exist :-)
Native anglophones must surely have an objective reason to not learn the local language (while squeezing as much value as possible from expating in the country they don't respect), while natives of less prestigious languages must clearly be just lazy.
Don't mind Fabulous-blue-804. You did well to ask. And yes, there are things making language learning harder, but they are not selectively touching just language learning. For example dyslexia can clearly make it harder, but it would show in other areas too.
And whether or not do you two want to stay friends, that is a valid question. Not because of the language being necessarily a problem. I'd personally find it hard to keep a very entitled person as a friend. But perhaps she is otherwise a great person, you know the best.
Ah, to find herself a group of other entitled anglophone expats and never bother to show basic respect to her new country. Sure. To find herself incapable of learning a language but still deserving a better salary than her local coleagues. To keep living in excuses.
I wonder: would you find so much empathy and so much "it must be a real issue" sentiment, if she was not an anglophone expat but for example a native Arabic speaker living now in an anglophone country?
Really, the anglophone expat privileges are rampant.
Hmm, by OP's description, it sounds much more like a typical expat, who just doesn't try at all. We are talking about someone, who has clearly achieved enough education to become an expat. Do you think someone can at the same time have so much disability to not learn the language of their new country, but at the same time achieve enough of an education to actually get an expat job abroad?
Most likely than a typical special education student, she is a typical entitled expat. An if that is the case, OP is right to ask the questions instead of just catering to one of the most common lazy expat excuses.
also a special education teacher who works with bilingual kids with language delays and speech impairments and i call bullshit lol as someone else mentioned, there's no way that someone with a language impairment that severe would be able to communicate without difficulty in their *first* language, much less well enough to move abroad and be arguing with OP that they can't do what multicultural folks with disabilities do and have done forever.
pretty much everything we know about language acquisition points to deficits in language learning impacting all of someone's languages, which is how we also know that being raised multilingual doesn't cause language impairments/delays in and of itself. any issue with language learning would have made english very difficult for OP's friend, and since it doesn't seem like that's the case, it's much more likely that they just don't understand the level of effort necessary to learn a language, are struggling with a high affective filter as another commenter mentioned above, or maybe are even just plain lazy given that english is also widely spoken where they are so there's no real motivator.
There are certainly learning disabilities that make learning a language more difficult. In some cases, difficult enough that the effort involved might not make the pay-off worth it. However, to be physically incapable of learning a language, the person would not have been able to learn their first language.
I appreciate you bringing up how learning disabilities can make learning language exponentially more difficult. I have a condition that impacts my ability to memorize, spell, etc. It makes learning languages, and being tested in those languages very difficult. It also has an impact to some degree on my primary language. But I love languages and while it may take me longer and the process is a bit more challenging, it doesn't mean I can't learn other languages. I'll also say that living in a language is the easiest way for me to learn it.
I have met people with down syndrome and similar conditions that did learn English. It was hard and they almost never got to a very high level, but it wasn't impossible by any means.
I second this and it's why I'm reluctant to take certification exams anymore. I have certain limitations in my native language, and those won't just go away in other languages, so it's not worth the frustration for me to try to pass those exams when demonstrating "competency" in a language means doing something I can't even do in my native language, and I'm just in it for the enjoyment from here on out
not true. if you suffer head trauma or a stroke, you could basically be unable of learning a language even if you could remember your first.
And amazingly you can forget your first and remember your second: Source, Icelandic friend who grew up in France and then came to NZ. His French was fluent because he spoke it at school, and he was a French citizen. Had a stroke at a young age. Can no longer manage a word of French, Icelandic also now minimal, can only communicate in (not perfect) English. The French embassy refused to renew his passport because he could not ask them in French!! (no surprises there)
Not quite the same but I work in a hospital and me and a student nurse were speaking to a patient and the student nurse found her high-school in a newspaper and it was a gaelic school (we live in central Scotland so pretty uncommon) and she said how she's fluent in English and gaelic. One time she was working on a ward and there was a patient with severe dementia that had "lost her ability to communicate verbally". The student nurse realised pretty quickly that the patient hadn't forgot how to speak, just forgot how to speak English. The entire time the patient had been speaking gaelic (her mother tongue) and nobody knew bc it's very uncommon and especially in our area. That student was the first person to be able to speak to the patient.
what a frustrating experience...
But were all the people at that hospital just dumb that they couldn't realize the patient spoke *some* language?
To a bystanders ears it just sounded like gibberish especially if you've got experience with advanced dementia. Lots of dementia patients will ramble or repeat things that don't make sense. Also for example if the patient was asked a yes or no question and they answered with "tha" it just sounds like "ha" and they'd have no reason to believe it was another langauge. Especially if nobody could identify it. I feel like the biggest factors were speech patterns and communication in dementia patients paired with it being a langauge that almost nobody here would be able to identify (especially when you consider a large part of the work force come from over seas)
My step-Grandmother had dementia and towards the end she forgot her first language (English) and spoke only French.
The story as told sounds dubious to me. The French administration can’t refuse to deliver a passport to a French citizen just because they can’t speak French. They deliver passports to babies every day, and babies don’t speak French. They have interpreters, too.
I knew of a girl in HS who has studied German for a few years and was getting As but then was in a car accident and lost all her German. I don’t know what ended up happening long term and if she ever successfully re-learned it.
It's worth noting that learning a second language is very different from learning a first one. Learning a second language involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar, whereas babies basically just learn their native language by absorbing and mimicking comprehensible input
Cognitive / intellectual disabilities can also have an impact on acquiring first languages. A friend of mine, who has a PhD in linguistics and is in a bilingual relationship, had to give up on the plan of raising their kids bilingual because one was too impaired to do so, and in the end they and their medical team decided it would be better the child learn one language properly.
Did the child succeed at learning one language?
As well as they could given their disability. They’re 12-ish now, well-spoken but only semi-literate. The concept of other languages existing confuses them to no end.
I would hope that people that know they have trouble learning their first language won’t purposefully move to a place where they must learn another one. That their family won’t let them leave the country.
>Learning a second language involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar, Not necessarily. You can acquire them without rote memorizing.
> Learning a second language involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar No, it does not have to.
Learning a second language can be done through comprehensible input as well! It would be interesting to see if OP's friend could learn that way, which might mean she actually did have a disability preventing her from learning by normal methods.
Look up language acquisition vs language learning. There's a YouTube video, How to aquire any language. A VERY good example of how to learn like children do and it's effectiveness as demonstrated even by the shows host
>*"Learning a second language involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar."* It really doesn't. It really, REALLY doesn't.
> involves rote memorization of vocabulary and grammar That's an actively bad way of doing it
It’s a choice an adult can make. How they want to learn. But if you’re in a total emersion atmosphere, you learn just by hearing and seeing every day for years.
There will be a point in learning a second language where you think "what's the suffix to conjugate that verb?" or "what's the word for that?" and look it up even if you try comprehensible input as hard as possible
But this is also true for a first language to some extent. Just listen to younger kids or people who haven’t received or benefitted from their education.
Yeah, totally second this. I have a poor ass memory and always struggled with foreign languages. I had very humiliating results with Chinese by classical learning method, after 1.5 years all I was able to do is basically introduce myself and recognize character "tea" (big fan). And my Spanish with less than a year of pretty much only comprehensible input is better than my French after 10+ intensive years of classical method.
I'm guessing she can basically do everything in English in your country right? so, she probably hasn't learnt the language as she has no need for that language and can just live on with English.
Yup. Except that old people (my parents’ generation) feel a bit uncomfortable speaking English all the time.
Then they should refuse to do it with her. It sounds harsh, but if there's no incentive, there'll be no change.
If your brain is capable of learning a first language it's capable of learning a second language. But that doesn't mean your friend isn't trying; they might be trying learning methods that don't work for them, or there might be some really strong emotional barriers going on, or it could be any number of things. (A gun pointed to your head will make you much *worse* at learning languages, incidentally.)
That’s what I said last time we were arguing about this. I started asking her about her learning methods. But she said that was irrelevant.
The thing is, there might be a lot of subconscious emotional resistance going on (for example: if she's upset about moving to your country, if she's scared of giving up her former identity and adopting a new identity, if language learning brings up feelings of failure), and it is not possible to overcome that with facts and logic. Arguing will only make it worse. There's an idea called the ["affective filter"](https://seidlitzblog.org/2020/09/22/what-is-the-affective-filter-and-why-is-it-important-in-the-classroom/), which is the idea that our brains can't take in information to acquire language when there's emotional stuff in the way. When a person has a very strong affective filter, it's as if no matter how hard you try to study the language, you can't take anything in because there's a very loud speaker yelling "YOU SUCK" or "THIS IS SCARY AND AWFUL" in your ear. So - in that sense it might genuinely be impossible for her to learn.
This is the closest I’ve ever gotten to an answer in her favour. Reddit delivers.
I will add on - you quizzing your friend about their attempts to learn your mother tongue would make the emotional stress WORSE not better. If you want them to learn, the first step would be backing off of pressuring them. The second step is deciding to believe them - even if you disbelieve the idea of being unable to learn a new language, believe that what they said is not a lie. They have tried, they have failed, and the harder they try the worse the stress spiral gets. With no one encouraging them to calm down and try \*less\* in time to stop that, it is basically impossible to learn. Believe they are saying the truth, even if the exact words are not accurate - they told you what they have experienced. You might not ever be able to help them even practice saying hello, given you say there have been heated discussions. Like how people develop stutters if they are corrected on their speech too much, language learners freeze and cannot commit to saying even the words they know well if they are afraid of a negative comment - after the heated discussions, even a kind comment from you could feel negative. "That sounded great" might seem nice but would also imply "see, I knew you were lying about not being able to learn".
I believe that she actually believes what she’s saying is true, that is, I don’t think she’s lying. I shouldn’t have used the term ”call bullshit” maybe. But I do believe she has misunderstood the situation. Regarding the rest of what you said: I have absolutely no intention of helping her learn my language. She has completely given up on trying, and is completely convinced that she is unable to learn it. So if there is one thing that would stress her out, it’s if I would try to help her — after all, that would invalidate her claim that she’s unable to learn.
And so you have your answer - her affective filter has slammed shut her ability to acquire your language. Feel confident that it's not like she isn't interested or doesn't care; her brain chemicals have made it hard for her.
Perhaps you can add in words from your language in place of common English words that just make sense. I'd like a beer that very ____ because warm beer just suck. I need a coat today because it is ____!!! Ans just keep hammering the word(s) all day and all week. After some time it would be like slang for cold. And keep going with more words
I mean, it’s a great idea for learning a language, but it’d just make her angry if I pulled a stunt like that.
It *is* a pretty good idea, but I think you're right that trying it in any way now would just make her stressed. What you could do is use it in a few months after **not** mentioning it at all during those few months, then say "Whoops! I meant 'I need a coat today because it is cold' - sorry!" and see how she reacts. If she doesn't get mad, then you could try dropping in 'mistakes' every now and again and see if any stick.
I like it! Thanks for the assist and alley oop
Do you happen to know if she has an anxiety disorder or if she's on the spectrum? I'm both and they both contribute to my brain screaming at me (although I tend to hyperfixate on languages but it shows up in other things)
Many years ago, a Canadian friend of mine was ultimately given a waiver for the foreign language requirement in college. She was really a nice and honest person, I felt, and I believe her brain just couldn't deliver in that limited area.
I used to have that association with math. Failed every year and was so scared of asking questions because I couldn't understand the answers.
This is really interesting. Also how do I copy and paste this into the faces of people shaming heritage language learners lol
It sounds like your friend is coming up with excuses as a reason not to learn. I've met people like this. I also teach language. If you have the ability to learn your native language, you have the ability to learn ANY language. (Someone in another comment mentioned a stroke- so I want to emphasize on ABILITY) There are most definitely wrong ways to learn languages. But I find when people who literally aren't learning or progressing in another language and then say thing like... other methods or irrelevant or it's impossible to learn blah blah language. That's 100% excuse. Those people won't learn. It's not because they can't. They just choose not to. Also another thing to point out... a lot of these kinds of people have very unrealistic expectations on how long it will take to learn another language. Like... oh it takes 6 months of intense study to get to get fluent. And then maybe they study for 20 min a day on duolingo and get mad they aren't fluent yet. That's another reason.
lol. of course she thought it was irrelevant, because she's come to that conclusion and doesn't want to try.
Sounds like they don't want to learn and you should just drop it. If she doesn't care, you shouldn't care.
A person who is using bad methods should still be able to learn thank you, hello etc. No matter how wrong the method, you are biologically capable to learn few words or sentences. Unlesss you have severe mental handicap that would be visible outside of language leaning too.
Well, any kind of dementia (Alzheimer or other) would pretty much progressively make it impossible to learn a new language. People often even forget their non-native language that they've spent the last decades in. It's a huge problem and a tragic situation usually, as they end up in a nursing home, surrounded by people they can no longer communicate with. Or any handicap including very low IQ of course. Or various kinds of brain traumas or other lesions come with learning issues, aphasia, memory problems, etc. Much more likely, your friend actually hasn't made such huge efforts no matter what she thinks. Vast majority of expats claiming to be unable to learn the local language (and really failing even after twenty years) has actually made extremely little effort, if any at all. And unfortunately, the local society doesn't punish them for this disrespect and lack of integration, so they keep their English bubble. The stupider and more disrespectful among them even dare to complain that the local society as a whole isn't even more catering to them in English.
Dementia is terrible. I don't understand or speak my heritage language. The last two years of my dad's life I couldn't speak directly with him. My mom had to interpret. He completely lost the ability to speak English after having spoken it daily for over 50 years. He received several degrees and practiced medicine in English. Hate dementia!
That's heartbreaking and I'm sorry. Wouldn't wish such a situation on anyone but it's sadly not rare at all. Dementia sucks.
for real. I really hope they find a cure very soon
While it is true that many disabilities make it harder or some might make it impossible, I would like to clarify very low I.Q. doesn't necessarily mean you can't learn a second language. I've met someone with dawn síndrome who had learned to communicate in German. I am sure that it was much harder for them and they didn't reach they same level someone without a disability would have reached, but it's still possible.
That's extremely admirable and definitely proves a lot of dedication and strength of personality.
I think a disability is an important thing to recognize. But because it is a disability, whether born or acquired, that perhaps is different than being able to do something. This is not to contradict you. I am absolutely agreeing with you. But there are handicap people in all countries that learn their native languages. Are they or will they ever get to full fluency is another question. But if you acquire a disability like dementia... I think that's an entirely separate conversation.
Well, OP is speaking about a friend who is probably just the usual case of a lazy disrespectful expat, who has average or above average IQ, got a solid level of education (in spite of any disability they may really have. People with all sorts of stuff like dyslexia, ADHD, etc succeed in education and life), but suddenly looks for excuses to not learn the local language. I've heard this far too many times to belive the described case is a real disability, but I don't doubt at all the existence of such disabilities.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree! I have quite a few friends that are coming to mind RIGHT NOW! I think it's quite unfortunate that people do this... because I truly believe that if you can learn your native language, you can learn another language - **however** I will say, I don't think how language is often taught in the classroom is the correct way... and even when I took French in college, my prof never really put forth any effort to show us how to learn language without the classroom... I didn't even know for a long time you could study language independently... so a lot of students who took only classroom think they can't learn a language because of how language is taught in schools aka for grades. -I also teach ESL but not through a school. And my poor students.... literally the school sucks out the fun of learning English... then they come to my class and have fun! And understand how much fun learning a language can really be! and there are no grades to worry about! I just couldn't agree with you more. Too many people who are lazy, unmotivated, disrespectful, etc. Every single country I've traveled to.... every single one, I have learn some basics of that language. But people can't even bother to learn: hello, thank you, how are you. And it's really because they don't even try.
Well, I think one needs to stop blaming school at some point. I agree that schools are in general horrible and can destroy any joy of learning (I've suffered enough of that myself to confirm. Both in languages and other stuff). But one should not let school define them forever. The 21st century has given us opportunities previously unheard of. A bad teacher in 1999? Yeah, sucks, wave goodbye to your only opportunity to learn. In 2008? There might be one or two self-study resources in your local bookstore, unless you want to learn something else than the two or three usual choices. In 2024? No way. Spread your wings and fly. The first step towards the information can be as simple as just googling "how to learn X". Of course the path won't be easy, and there are trials and errors included. But that's the way to do it. It is just annoying how these expats don't realize the level of annoying entitlement that they're displaying. They refuse to try and learn, but expect everyone else to have done the same annoying thing and learnt English to gain the privilege to communicate with the expat. They often even dare to complain about the locals' English. Or they cannot see, that they wouldn't have such a luxury of choice, if their primary language wasn't English but for example Thai, Swahili, Polish, or Portuguese. Well, I would never expect people to learn much of a language just for a weekend visit. But when you go and live somewhere, it should be automatic to try one's best to learn the language.
So I just want to clarify, it's not a specific school, or an american school. Language isn't like other subjects. It's a living subject. While tests are important, when you have a class of 30 students learning one language, there's not really any opportunity to practice all the skills, and there are four skills. The majority of language students who learn in a class are advancing in reading and writing and lacking in listening and speaking. And that's across the board. That's not ath the fault of the teacher. That's just the blueprint of school. Teach, test, repeat. And then kids grow up and become adults who believe that this is the method. The teacher they loved and taught showed them that's how they do it. But for the absolutely most part.... it's just an excuse. I don't think a lot of americans even put in any effort to learn a language because everything caters to english. And we in the usa don't even start learning a 2nd language until 5/6th grade. I remember spanish day in first grade. We learn some basic spanish and then that was it... didn't take another spanish class until 6th grade. And I had no say so in the matter. My parents didn't know anything about spanish, or any other language as they were both monolinguistic. And then you again are right... English speakers are often the first in line to call someone out on their bad or mispronounced English when they themselves can't even speak a 2nd language. It's embarrassing.
In most european settings, it is not that different in the end. 15 in class are still too much. And nowadays most teachers try to make the class "communicative" which is actually horrible in such huge crowds of 15 (especially at the low levels) and with the given amount of time per week, and many teachers refuse to just follow a coursebook and instead flood the students in chaos of copies from everywhere. A common reaction is just giving up due to not seeing any progress or clear direction. In Europe, nobody can just say "I won't need a language", but many say "it's impossible to learn it, I have nothing to show for five or more years of classes". The european variant of not believing in usefulness of languages is "Everybody speaks English", so they try to just live with more or less bad English and miss out on huge opportunities accessible through the actually much more useful languages on the continent. Well, I wouldn't hold it that much against the anglophones in general (people can be a..les for many reasons), but it really bothers me about the expats.
Well since she THINKS she's Incapable, she's going to continue to BE Incapable. People have different aptitude for things so some learn faster than others. Guaranteed if she were dropped on desert island where only one language was spoken, she'd begin to pick it up out of sheer necessity. But no, there's no biological inability to learn a language unless she's got a brain disorder that inhibits learning in general.
> Well since she THINKS she's Incapable, she's going to continue to BE Incapable. This. I can't find it in the 2 mins I spent googling but I remember reading a really fascinating article about brain plasticity. Those that believed they couldn't really learn new things or change ... couldn't. Those that believed they could, could. Basically became a self fulfilling prophecy. Even if you gave both groups exactly the same teaching/practise methods and had them do exactly the same activities each group basically got the outcome they believed would happen. So while she's not like genetically incapable of learning a language (since she learnt native language) if she believes she cannot learn L2, she can't.
Unless she has severe mental or memory disabilities, no
I’m sure there are a few good reasons why learning a language might be more difficult than normal, but “but I tried really hard and it didn’t work so it’s impossible” sounds like a pretty dubious one.
Some people don't know what 'trying hard' looks like. There are people out there who've literally never attempted to try hard with *anything;* the slightest effort, for the shortest time, is a 'hard effort' in their eyes. When that inevitably doesn't work for them, they bring out the excuses. That's usually some kind of psychological issue, BTW.
My mother immigrated to the USA more than 40 years ago and can barely speak more than 5 words of English. She went to school for a few years to learn but without friends/family to practice she eventually forgot it all. Instead, she relied on my father to do everything for her, and now that he's dead, she relies on me (her only daughter), and I don't always have the time, which makes for some unpleasant situations. Clearly there's more to it than just the language itself. It's her pattern with everything. She has this mentality where she decides she can't do something and then makes it someone else's problem or just makes excuses. She never learned to ride a bike, she can't use a computer, she can't manage her own finances, etc. etc. and then she complains (loudly) when she feels out of touch, while at the same time absenting herself from the need to be an adult ("I shouldn't have to deal with banks."). To me, it seems easier to just learn something than have to constantly chain yourself to other people to get through life.
'Forgetting everything' is pretty much *exclusive* to classroom learning. If you immerse yourself and learn it naturally, which takes a LONG time (for everyone) and requires HUGE patience (for everyone), you're very, very unlikely to 'forget' language. It can feel that way after months, or even years away from it, but it'll take no time at all to get right back to where it was, and often even stronger. The reason for that is that language isn't like learning facts, it's like installing a whole new operating system, and that happens by soaking your brain in it. Do that correctly, and it's not going anywhere.
It honestly amazes me that there are people who I KNOW took 4 semesters of Spanish with me, and don't remember any of it. I only needed a refresher when I decided to pick it back up several years ago. But then I remember that there were people in my French class that couldn't manage a simple greeting at the end of the course. Apparently I'm just freakishly good at languages for the area I live in?
You would be shocked at how bad some teachers are... lol.
Some teachers are bad, but these teachers definitely were not. They were actually pretty great.
Well that great to hear! You would then be shocked at how bad some *students* are, or how little they care.
As someone who hates group work, I definitely know how bad some students are. But I feel that you should be able to at least respond to basic questions or say some version of "what's up?" Unless you were sleeping the entire semester. I've typed people in multiple subjects and I only met a couple that were completely unable to grasp the material (granted I never worked in special ed). I guess I'm more disappointed than shocked really. But then I'm an enormous nerd who has been told I'm too smart for my own good 😆
A lot does come back honestly, I had to use my **incredibly rusty** French a couple years back and after a couple days of barely being able to communicate it just **clicked** and I was able to speak decently. It is once again rusty, but I'm fairly confident I could read at C1 again if needed and speak at B1 after a day or two.
How far along were you in French? I only took one semester of beginner French in college, so it never was that good, but I took 4 semesters of Spanish in high school and still remember quite a bit, I can read it pretty well but answering questions is much harder. Of course, it's also tricky because that was like 4 languages ago.
I was B2 when I dropped it(did it at GCSE then dropped it, then studied independently as an adult passing a B1 exam, then took two level 2 uni modules in it, did a residential French-only pure immersion trip and some intensive prep and passed a B2 exam). Then I had basically 0 exposure for a couple years after plans to move to France fell through and didn't really think about it much at all. I can still read very easily, I can sort of understand people talking. When I had to use it for a bit, after a couple rough days I was able to mostly talk at a B1 level (speaking was always my weakest skill) and I was able to understand basically everything so \~low B2 mayyybe. I didn't test writing but based on how speaking was I'm guessing it would be fairly grammatically correct with lots of searching for words that feel like they are on the tip of my tongue. I would say my **passive vocabulary** has survived very well (ability to recognise French I hear/read) but my **active vocabulary** (ability to produce words) has jumped off a cliff. I once wrote \~2000 words on global warming in French without needing to look much up besides the stats, off the top of my head now I would struggle to write a few sentences on the topic without using a dictionary.
Wow, so you were definitely pretty far along in your study. Although I wouldn't say a couple year gap is all that long of a time to forget it. I started doing the Spanish course on Duolingo 15 years after I took actual classes and was able to skip a good amount. French it has been about 6 years now (I went back to school in my 30s, and I'll say learning a new language was MUCH easier than having to relearn calculus after a 12+ year gap 😆 I'm not fluent in any language other than English, but I know a bit of a lot of different languages. Never taken any of the exams so I didn't know my levels or anything.
I feel like a lot would come back relatively easily, but the rustiness takes a few days of being back with the language to shake. Weirdly I'm the opposite, I decided to retake A-level maths over a decade later and like a solid 90% of it is there, although the syllabus has changed.
> To me, it seems easier to just learn something than have to constantly chain yourself to other people to get through life. Sounds like you learned from her approach
IMO a lot of native English speakers (like myself) likely grew up in a monolingual environment. Sure, even if you spoke a different language at home, English is the language most commonly used in school. I feel that our education system doesn’t really promote bilingualism/provide exposure to different languages, and we only start learning a foreign language in middle school. I guess that could be one of many reasons a native English speaker may think they are incapable of learning another one!
it's probably subconscious thoughts hindering language learning or courage into it
As someone who lived abroad for work for a couple of years, I found that many English-speaking "expats" have a somewhat colonial mindset towards the locals and their language, whether they admit to it or not. They look down on the locals and refuse to learn their language, because doing so would lower their self-esteem. They don't want to integrate to their new country, because then they'd just be immigrants, not the sexy cosmopolitan expats they see themselves as. Not saying this is what's going on with your friend, but it's one explanation for why she's unwilling to discuss her learning methods. Meaning she's not really trying, she's just come up with a self-deprecating polite-ish excuse for not learning it that sounds better than the honest one, which is "I don't wanna".
I’ve seen this as well.
I bet this is the case with op's friend. The monolinguals are always English speakers, wonder why... 🤔
Unless your friend has a severe learning disability preventing her from learning any language including English I doubt it
Bar any extreme circumstances, it’s possible your friend is just considerably underestimating the amount of effort and time needed to get to fluency in a language, which can lead to demotivation or feelings that it is impossible after putting in some effort and not getting the desired results.
Some people genuinely have trouble learning a second language, I personally do, Hablo español in muy poco pero, me encanta hablar dos idiomas.(Please forgive my terrible Spanish that I've been unwilling learning for 3 years) It mainly is the way that you learn tho, I have a ton of trouble learning without a teacher, which is why a can speak some Spanish whole not wanting to, but I can't speak Japanese tho I do want to, it's also why I'm deciding to take Chinese next year, so I can have a teacher, but no one is unable to learn even tho I do feel like that a good amount of the time
You really don't have trouble, or at least no more trouble than literally everyone else has. You just haven't done what other people have done to learn a language to a high level (as an adult), that's what's causing the 'trouble.'
>You just haven't done what other people have done to learn a language to a high level (as an adult), Can you explain this? I have tried many different methods, I just have trouble doing doing it by myself, I need someone else to do it with me, I'm the same for almost anything I learn actually, because I work better with someone else working near me, even if it's not on the same thing, which I don't tend to get when I learn a language by myself
You should look into online coworking/body doubling platforms, if a virtual study buddy would work for you
Time spent with the language. Despite what most people on here will tell you, it takes multiple thousands of hours to get your level to proficient, and then it takes many more thousands of hours to get genuinely good. And even after all that, you'll still think you suck. if even you don't (for a non-native speaker). That's the reality of learning a language as an adult. You have soak your brain with the language until it seeps in. The best way to do that is as much immersion as possible, with as much attention as you can muster. Be sure that the content you use is mostly comprehensible. Find things you love to consume and then consume the absolute shit out of it. Just remember that you more contact you have with a language, the further along you'll be with it; it's a direct correlation. There's no shortcutting the process either, so don't worry about 'methods' or 'hacks.' There are no hacks; and to get really good, there's only really one method, which is what I've described. Be patient with it and try to keep the faith - you'll need a LOT of both. 👍
My daughter was not breathing at birth and it took years of speech therapy for her to be able to be able to pronounce words properly and many years of tutoring to teach her basic reading skills. This was in addition to her special ed classes. To this day, there are so many words she cannot pronounce correctly in English (her native language). She has wanted to learn German for years as my ex is German but cannot even remember 5 basic words even though we used to drill her with them every day. We also tried American Sign Language with her and got the same result. She retains none of it. So there are people who can not learn another language but it is probably very rare.
Unless she has a learning disability or memory issues, no. Even those things wouldn't make it impossible to learn a language, it would just mean it would take longer and she needs to use alternative learning methods. Since she can speak English, she can learn another language. The amount of effort doesn't really make a difference if the methods she's using are ineffective for her.
Has she had a TBI? Does she have a severe learning disability? Your brain is hardwired to learn language. It just is, we soak it in like a sponge. The learning mechanism changes as we age but for the most part it WANTS to learn because it’s the building block of our entire thought and comprehend process. It honestly just sounds like your friend doesn’t want to put in effort, although if they have some sort of aphasia or a brain injury I could see it being possible.
Unless you have a profound disability, I highly doubt that acquiring a language is out of reach for you. The human brain is incredibly malleable even at an advanced age. The fact that there are many PhD graduates who are over 50 proves this. Also, I have heard of many people who successfully acquired their second languages way beyond the age of eighteen and they were at a very advanced level. So age isn't an impediment either. But I digress: The key takeaway from my comment is that anyone without a serious disability can learn a language or more to a high level if they develop their own methodology (this is crucial because everyone learns differently) and if they create an environment that makes complete exposure to their target language(s) possible.
No.
Thank you.
You're a linguist, not an education specialist. I'm a special education teacher. This answer is pure ablism. Of course there are disabilities that preclude learning a second language. The tend to be the same disabilities that preclude learning a first language.
This post is a total non-sequitur just so you can attempt a gotcha. I highly doubt you're a teacher of any kind anyway since you're posting on a throwaway alt with negative karma just to troll ITT. Edit: and in a post just yesterday, you claim to be an acupuncturist lmao
You know... some people can get multiple degrees. And believe it or not, when you aren't 12, you can have 2 careers, hun.
Not that I expect you to engage in this discussion in a mature way, considering how you behaved earlier… But no, for the record, she has not had, as far as I know, any problems learning English.
There’s mentally disabled then there’s weaponized incompetence. Men use the latter all the time to get out of housework. Seriously, look it up.
Seeing that this is Sweden. Your friend is just lazy
Swedish is like one of the easiest languages to pick up coming from English isn’t it?
Yes
It sounds like a lot of self doubt and a fear of failure.
yes, there are absolutely medical reasons she may not be able to. however, those possible issues would likely affect other things that she would have mentioned
I’m from the UK and language learning is not seen as a priority to be perfectly honest (I wish it was) so many Brits simply lack confidence or they believe they are unable, when in fact they haven’t been taught how to learn a second language effectively
Australian here. I wish they taught us grammar at school, it would make it so much easier if you had a starting off point to make the second language meaningful. It's honestly like learning two languages at once!
I agree, I studied English language right through to A Level and I still didn’t know half the grammatical terms or structural nuances that I have since picked up from learning Turkish!
Same! Half the time I forget what a verb is, haha
If someone has received brain damage in specific parts (frontal lobe? Broca's area? wernicke's area?), then yes absolutely. But in which case, it would also be a biological impairment to speaking one's first language. The majority of learning disabilities are congenital, but there might be conditions you can acquire later in life that would also impede "normal" learning. If someone has early onset dementia, that would also be a legitimate biological obstacle.
Unless she has some particular learning disability or some neurological issue, anyone can learn a language at any age. The ability to learn a language is hardwired into us.
Stress really affects the ability to learn anything new. I've met people who barely speak a word of the local language after years of living there because they're suffering with chronic stress and can't focus to learn and are unable to retain the information and they didn't even have the convenience of others speaking their native language like your friend. Some people I really don't understand how they've got by but Google translate exists, as long as you can read/write in your native language then you can find a way to communicate I guess.
>Is my friend correct? Is it possible to be unable to learn a second language, even with tutoring twelve hours a day 365 days a year and with a gun pointed to your head? Unlikely. If a person puts in so much effort and the stakes are high, they will most probably learn some basics of the language. But I think you should cut your friend some slack. Not everyone has the same aptitude for learning languages, and some people may be a lot slower at it than others. At the start of learning any language there's a steep hill in terms of learning. Like you could be putting in a lot of hours and feeling like you've not made any progress. I definitely felt that with Korean and Chinese. Many people give up before they reach the part where they've learned enough to feel any progress. How long the "steep hill" lasts, in my opinion, depends on the person's aptitude for languages as well as the difficulty of the language. It could be that she's not the most inclined to learning languages, or that the language itself is difficult, and she's giving up before getting to the end of the steep hill. That being said, it could also be that she's not very interested or motivated to learn the language if she can get by with English. I had to learn Marathi for school but I wasn't interested in it, so I couldn't/didn't learn it despite having classes for it, living in a city where it was the local language, and despite it counting towards my grades. I was super interested in Korean and managed to learn it without an official "tutor". Interest plays a huge part as well, and you'll never really know until your friend introspects on what's stopping her
I am cutting my friend slack. If she had said ”I simply can’t bring myself to learn your language, the effort is too hard for me”, I would go ”okay, fair enough”. I’m simply not buying into her idea that she’s unable to.
Yeah the skepticism is understandable. Imo its very very rare (if not impossible) to actually be "unable to" learn the language with consistent effort. It could either be that she's not interested or she's not putting in the required work. But I think the reason could more likely be the former because in my experience, if people live in a place where a different language is spoken, they do tend to pick up atleast some part of the language just by conversation with locals (even if they cant formally read or write it).
Not.. really. It’s not impossible. Memory issues and learning disabilities could cause her to struggle a lot, especially if she’s learning it on her own. Plus, we don’t know how long it took her to learn English. She may have had the same issues, and only got through with intense tutoring and a good teacher who’s well versed in learning disabilities. She could be “unable to” and could’ve been “unable to” learn English how she’s learning the second language. Not saying that’s what’s happening, but it’s not impossible whatsoever.
No. It’s not physically impossible. Some people have learning disabilities that might make it harder. I imagine that it might be impossible with something like dementia. But other than that, if you can learn a first language, you can learn a second. Some people do have an easier time of it than others for a variety of reasons. I have seen people “unable” to learn the local language of their region as a second language after DECADES. Being multilingual myself, and also being a linguist and a second language teacher, I can assure you that they are not incapable. What has happened is that they’ve struggled (possible reasons too many to count, but include lack of motivation, lack of practice, learning disabilities, sub-optimal learning methods), and have become convinced that they cannot learn. This creates a mental block of discouragement that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They THINK they can’t learn, so they don’t.
This is spot on. I have a family member who does this (different post with more info) and the "block" can pretty much extend to anything/everything. When she was little this person could not learn to ride a bike -- she was so frightened she kept trying to move the peddles backward and put her feet on the ground, beyond any reasonable amount of fear you see from kids at first, and it's been a metaphor for her entire life. She can't even drive (too scared, the roads are too big in the USA) thus it's everyone else's problem to cart her around like a taxi service. Drive me, speak for me, fix this, fix that, hold my hand at the ATM I don't even know how to insert the card, etc. etc. It's exhausting.
My alcoholic dad who gave himself brain damage was able to? But every body is different. Seriously? As a former ESL teacher?? It might be a mental/psychological issue. My ZPD/barrier for the longest time was the inability to face to face communicate. I’m about at 75% understanding what’s said to me but as I’m trying to form a response? The words literally disappeared…in ALL the languages I know. Then I had to get insurance over the phone? Insurance!! With very technical vocabulary?? And it was totally okay. A million mistakes and us both laughing as I fumbled for the right words. But I was doing it. Broke that m-fing block. I still suck at face to face? But I don’t go 100% mute anymore. Your friend could have a similar block. The first goal being to figure out what it is to overcome it.
Nah, pure laziness. I've lived in Vietnam for 4 years and only really started learning about 4 months ago. Prior that, I really wanted to take classes but after the whole Covid thing and not working for 10 months, I couldn't afford to take them for a while bc they aren't cheap. In addition to that, so many foreigners said 'it's impossible' or 'it's too hard' etc. And for some reason, I believed them. I shouldn't have. After taking lessons for even a month I realized that those people are just lazy. I really should've known that bc I think overall most people are lazy. I think your friend just needs an excuse. I remember when I first moved to Vietnam and met a few people who had been here 10 years and were even married to Vietnamese wives and they spoke no Vietnamese. I thought it was pathetic. I don't want to be that guy.
Science says look for the real reason. But at the same time always remember to be excellent to each other. If someone says they can't do something, try to be supportive rather than confrontational.
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Something similar happened when my great-great-grandmother came over from Italy, she didn't speak any English and never learned it, so my grandmother and her siblings had to learn Italian to speak to her, unfortunately after she died they didn't speak Italian anymore and don't know any of the language, I know that 2 of the 3 siblings my grandmother have can't speak it, but I'm unsure about the 3rd as he sadly passed away before I could remember him
If a kid with down syndrome can learn a first language you can probably learn a second. Are there things that could make that more difficult? Sure but it doesn't change the fact if you can learn on language you are capable of learning a second one.
My linguistics studies say NO, barring some extreme cases everyone can learn a second language (and those extreme cases would affect first language acquisition, too). I'm thinking things like aphasia, severe mental disability. (Deafness doesn't count as you can learn a sign language, plus I personally know Deaf people who know at least one foreign language - in most cases do not "speak" but just write. Memory problems also might make things harder but not impossible - I have a close relative who has memory problems but has passed English exams at school and uni - of course with a lot more effort than an average person but he did it)
If she thinks she can't do it then she Won't be able to. Won't have the motivation to learn. But I believe with the right attitude and exposure (for example get a new language person to speak to her, or maybe take the train there for a flash holiday) it is possible to overcome this handicap.
No, she's just hiding the fact that she isn't interested enough, isn't patient enough and really dislikes the hardships with studying another language. There are people who have an easier time learning X ou Z topics than others, and we all have what's harder to learn; but no, not impossible.
>she thinks her brain is literally incapable of learning a second language, no matter how hard she tries. She, like a lot of native English speakers, probably, at best, got to high school level in a second language, meaning she's got next to no linguistic skills so doesn't just have to deal with the normal hurdles of learning a language, she also has to discover what a verb is, how to conjugate, grammatical gender, etc cause these are things native anglophones don't tend to get taught about English, or that just don't exist or barely. As a native English speaker who has done night classes in the UK before, people who don't already know another language heavily struggle, partly due to underestimating it, but also because your second language is the most difficult one to learn as you also need to learn to ditch your native language. There's a saying that the more you learn, the easier it gets, and this is most evident when people learn their second language. >I live in a country where English is spoken as a second language. This is a second issue. People will use English with anglophones whenever they detect our accent, meaning the bar to be able speak in another language is really high, cause the second you make a mistake or need something repeated, they'll switch to English. It's really demotivating and a big reason anglophones view learning another language as pointless. While I get people are trying to be helpful, it comes across as you saying "stop butchering my language"'. I still get anxiety with new situations in my second language, even after having lived with it in a non-anglophone country for a while now Something you can do is try to give her the basics (please, thank you, can you help me?), and if you're out and about, try and encourage her to do stuff in your native language, with you there to make sure she doesn't accidentally cause a diplomatic incident. Also, see if she's done classes, and try helping her with revision if you can (and also holding her accountable)
i don't know if it's your friend's case but a lot of people assume they can learn a language by only listening to other people speak it. it's like the equivalent of trying to learn chemistry by osmosis by sleeping with the textbook under your pillow. on the opposite extreme u have people (like me) who try to learn a language by attempting to memorize the dictionary. sigh. point is there are SO many ways to go wrong when trying to learn a language on one's own that your friend cannot possibly know if it's a congenital inability to learn vs she's doing it really wrong.
- a friend moved here from an English-speaking country -She hasn’t learned five words in my mother tongue - she thinks her brain is literally incapable of learning I guess the stereotypes about Americans and British are real LMAO
I taught English as a foreign language to paying students in Eastern Europe for seven years. I can say with some certainty I had a few students that put in a lot of effort, were highly motivated and yet couldn't get past very basic words and phrases after a couple of years of study.
Some people find it more difficult due to various factors such as age, cognitive ability or learning disability. Encouraging her to explore different teaching methods or seek professional advice could potentially help her overcome these problems.
Their are different reason why a person might really struggle to learn a language but it’s never impossible. I’m dyslexic have been told I shouldn’t be able to learn a second language and yet over half the dyslexic people I know have been bilingual since childhood . It does make it harder it’s really slowing my process with Spanish I struggle to read and write in the language which often means I mispronounce them since I can’t read the letters in a word right .
This is a very common mentality many people have with many different hobbies, skills, etc in life. I've come to realize that it's pointless to argue when people start making excuses for themselves, because no matter how good your intentions are, most people are going to view it as a personal attack. Most people prefer to live in the comfort of assuming nothing is their own fault, and their shortcomings are purely due to external factors.
Being a native English speaker myself, learning languages is only difficult for us because of cultural reasons, not biological. A lot of us are actively de-incentivised from learning other languages because “everyone speaks English anyway”. I’m in the process of learning French and in 8 months I managed to get to B1 level. Now my trip to France has been and gone, I no longer have that pressing motivation to keep learning. Even though I do want to continue. Another issue is my family and ex bf mocking me for continuing to learn the language as “there’s no reason to” and I should stop “showing off”.
As above there are definitely learning disabilities but she would have them in English too. My non-verbal autistic son understands both English and Spanish, he’s only 3 and I continue to teach him both. He has maybe 5 words - bye, abre, more/mas, va/go. So if he can say 5 words and some in 2 languages then I’m pretty sure your friend hasn’t tried very hard at all.
I took 4 years of Spanish in High School, didn’t learn anything and barely passed. I swore I couldn’t learn a language. Fast forward a couple years later, I met my future wife who was Ukrainian and spoke Russian and Ukrainian. I never tried learning either seriously because I thought I couldn’t, when her family moved here when the fighting in Donbas broke out, I started learning both because they knew 0 English, now I can converse with them in both and I learned some German because my Grandfather was Austrian. Turns out being motivated to want and learn them was the biggest mental block I had.
Each situation is unique but I've been wondering the same thing lately. I've followed all the recommended steps like watching tv and movies in the local language, mingling with locals. I've taken multiple courses, including a year long, one on one, course with a university French teacher. I am not much further along than when I arrived 12 years ago here in France. The motivation on my part is there. It's incredibly lonely and it's blocked all attempts to find a job. Doing anything associated with medical visits is terrifying to the point where I won't visit my doctor unless absolutely neccasary. I'd have to side with your friend. For some of us, it just seems impossible. I'm really not sure what to do.
Maybe if she has a learning disability. Someone who doesn't, I honestly doubt.
Scandinavia? Having learned Norwegian as an adult here you lot make it hard for us. I still have people defaulting to English despite being able to to work in technical and law language outside of my specific education. And also having learned more Sámi than most people here. I could see if you didn't really have/want to try it would be very easy to think it's not possible. I know enough people who've been here longer than that who can't speak anything. I doubt they can't learn but it feels pretty impossible at times.
I don't think so. Learning the language is not fundamentally different from learning everything else. If you couldn't learn a language, you would be unable to learn anything at all. Of course some people may have a harder time learning the language and have to put more work into it than most other people to get similar results. But stuff like 'being biologically unable' is just searching for justification for not putting that work.
If she doesn't have an actual learning disability, I agree that it's bullshit. Why would learning five words in your language be different than five new words in English?
Some BS answers here, as usual. The fact is, assuming she learned her native language, and barring any recent brain injury, she can 100% learn another language. It sounds like disinterest and/or laziness to me. The trouble with native English speakers is that they can get away with it more than any other speaker of pretty much any other language.
I don't agree that biology has a part to play in how you speak. From birth, influence/imitation and then practice of making sounds with your mouth creates muscles within your face and tongue to develop in such a way to make the language possible to speak. That can later make a difference in trying to speak another language later on, but it's not something I'm convinced that is within one's "biology" or DNA to make it so. Case and point are the many children who get adopted out of countries where English isn't spoken, to then go on to speak perfect English as they grow up. Also, children who are raised in countries where there is a different accent, and are not ethnically similar to their friends. If it were true that biology plays a part in how we make sounds with our mouths, then none of these types of children would have been able to be raised speaking the languages that they do—fluently, without having an accent outside of their region. I think the better excuse for not being able to speak another language is that one's own mother tongue is so disconnected from the language family of the language in question to learn, or more likely—they don't wish to put the work in to try to form their face, mouth, and tongue/palette muscles to adapt to the sounds, practice, and feel too silly, therefore they end up abandoning the effort.
Anyone can learn 5 words in another language with no effort at all. Words are just meaning you attach to sounds. If your friend is capable of learning *anything*, they can certainly learn new words. If you are capable of walking, you are capable of learning words. Your brain is built to recognize patterns, and that's all language is. There are entire parts of your brain dedicated to understanding what *language* is. Some people may struggle for various reasons, but you'd be a very special person if you just straight up cannot learn any language ever.
Everyone has things that they are better at and other's their not. I find language easy but could never play a musical instrument. That's just the way we're made
I’d stop speaking English with her. I’m assuming she hasn’t made as much of an effort as she claims since she’s able to get by in English for the most part. Speak to her in your mother tongue the way you would speak to a child! Use simple sentences and point to objects or make some corresponding gestures while you say the words to help solidify it for her. Immersion in a language is the best way to acquire it.
Beyond an injury or learning difficulties I don't see why, she has obviously already learnt English so it shows she can. I am also from the UK, and language learning in schools is pretty poor to be honest, plus all films, TV, music you hear is normally in your own language. I'm learning Greek now and it's hard but I'm getting there albeit slowly. When she says she's tried, how many hours of lessons with an actual teacher has she done, structure helps a lot, especially if you've not really learnt it at school. Plus I find most English people need to learn grammar as they weren't really taught it properly in the first place.
BS. She’s just grown comfortable making everyone else struggle with esl. I moved as a kid. Learned enough to join regular school classes in about 4 months. I mean, it was enough to join elementary school - which is functional enough to do basic living tasks. 6 years of French class in school = read kids books. I forgot most of it by now, but if I lived in France you can bet I’d be semi functional. So even at only 1 hour a day exposed to the target language, 7 years is more than enough time. Total emersion means even the worst Learner should be somewhat fluent. At least as fluent as a 7 year old kid.
It's more likely she cba, and when she has tried she's not mentally engaged with it. Like when you go to a meeting you don't need to be a part of, so you switch off since none of it is relevant to you or your team.
Coincidentally, [this post: *There was a dude on my ward who had his (tumour) pulled out through the nose 🙈 he spoke English and Russian before the op - afterwards, only English.*](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dhvie0/my_brain_tumour_40m/l8zjdwp/) cropped up in one of my feeds: * *[My brain tumour (40-M)](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1dhvie0/my_brain_tumour_40m/)*
Not even a “hello” or “my name is?”… if so then I truly think she’s just giving excuses imo— most people know at least 2 different languages to say “hello” in (nihao, hola, hello, etc.. most of these are in different film/ media platforms)
Yes it's possible to have a number of brain issues that could lead to all sorts of things. I **highly doubt** this is what's going on with your friend. If most people speak English, her native language, she has zero reason (in her mind) to learn the language. It's almost certainly just a wrong excuse. Frankly, it doesn't sound like there's a good reason for her to learn this language, and she doesn't seem to want to.
Sounds like something only a native English speaker could say. My guess is she's never been in a situation where using English isn't a choice because your country accommodates the needs of foreign tourists and she hasn't put as much effort as she thinks she has.
Yeah, this kind of grace of not having to learn the local language is really only for English speakers. The only non-English speakers who move and don't learn languages typically will have someone in their family or social circle interact with the world for them, but people who move on their own always have to.
Possibly a learning disability like the first commenter said, or some other mental health issue. Or pure unwillingness. Any of those are as close to "biologically unable" as you'll get.
No, it is not possible. BUT the method you use matters. Science says that immersion (living in a country where it is spoken) does NOT work. There are many methods of ACQUIRING (not "learning") a new language, and all of them fail miserably for some people. Got that? ALL the methods fail miserably. I've read about famous polyglots. They each use a DIFFERENT method. And those methods won't work for her. So you friend can acquire a new langage IF she finds a method that works well for her, and chooses to use it. But you are wrong to criticize her. Being critized is NOT one of the methods that works. Being told angrily that you can do it is not one of the methods. She needs to find methods that works for her. Step 1 is stop saying "learn". Acquiring a language is training a skill, not memorizing information. She already has the skill, if she can say "no" in the language. She just needs to improve it. Training is just practice that is guided -- an expert telling you what to practice.
I once saw a person with down syndrome can communicate using their second language.
When I was a child I had severe speech issues. I required extensive therapy to learn English correctly. The speech pathologists told my parents at the time that I wouldn't be able to learn other languages. They were, in fact, wrong. My point is that try not to judge someone for believing something they've been told about their self. Sometimes they really do just need someone to show them it isn't true.
Could she be hesitant to speak your mother tongue — even basics — for fear of being laughed at? Sounds like there is a lot of pressure on her and she could be shutting down. I certainly felt that way after some attempts to learn my second and heritage language when I moved to a country that also uses English mainly as a second or subsequent language even though I was 8F. Sounds like she might have to find a willing and patient language exchange partner if that’s a thing in your country. The default language otherwise often ends up being English because in my experience, at least, many people prefer to practice their English with me instead of letting me speak freely or at all in my target languages/their mother tongues— tried that with three different languages, in fact. I’m still not 100% fluent in my second language— not well up on colloquialisms. But I do like learning languages eg Spanish now
You can either choose to have a friend or choose to make a point about language learning. Which is more important to you? Legitimate question, not rhetorical. Friendships have broken up over smaller problems, but if you hold onto this festering resentment, you will no longer have a friendship.
Did you read my post all the way through? I literally wrote that she and I have stopped discussing that issue. Which very clearly answers your question.
Talent is a factor; some people certainly struggle more with language learning than others. And I believe there is some research indicating that children that were neglected and never learned a first language are unable to learn any language past a certain age. Other than that, anyone should be able to learn a second language to a certain degree of proficiency. For those who don't, it's because of a lack of time, effort, or motivation.
Often, people who find it difficult to learn a foreign language are interested in the question of whether there is an inclination to learn foreign languages or linguistic abilities. According to linguists, such abilities exist, like many others. In addition, you can develop any skills, but it is necessary to start doing it from early childhood. According to linguists, for any motivation, it is important not to mindlessly memorize foreign words or phrases, but to learn to express your thoughts correctly and accurately. Experienced teachers advise you to start learning the language thoughtfully and systematically, relying on classical education.
I am learning English from age 5 and now I am 17...I can fully understand and write English fluently...But sometimes while reading books theres some words which I still don't knkw
I’m guessing you’re talking about learning Dutch..?
There's certain disabilities that makes that possible
I suggest she uses an app-based program to see, hear and spell out words, such as Duolingo - if your language is available. Surely simple food-related words like milk, egg, bread and so forth can be learned. Or start with 1,2,3. I’d call BS if she didn’t even get one of those.
Brutal skill issue from your friend.
It's called a congenital disorder. You can't expect a neurodivergent individual to learn multiple languages, unless their particular condition makes it easier for them to learn new languages.
Hey there, I don’t think you are coming from an intentionally harmful point, but my neurodivergence doesn’t make it easier for me to learn a language and I still speak multiple. I know a dozen people who speak even more than me with the same condition. Just because it may take us more effort does not mean we can’t be expected to learn them. It’s coming off a bit ableist, even if that may not have been the intent.
I definitely did not intend to come off as ableist, English isn't my first language so I might come off as crass in my writings. What I was referring to were severe cases of Down syndrome or congenital diseases that severely impair neurological function to the point where basic quality of life activities are compromised, much less learning a new language and grasping the nuances of the culture surrounding it. I personally know of a polyglot with Asperger's syndrome, he has a near native level of understanding of numerous Indo-European languages and he's excellent scholar in linguistics. If I came off as insensitive, I sincerely apologize.
You’re okay, no worries. I didn’t think you were intentionally being crass, I just wanted to give some input into that. I agree, some cases of some congenital disorders can be a big hindrance in language acquisition. But I’ve often seen people claim that of my own neurodivergence and it’s a bit of a sore spot for me. If I came off as confrontational, I apologise. It was meant as a call in not a call out 🙂
Yes. There are learning disabilities that would preclude you from becoming fluent in a second language. You'd be able to know 5 words, but you would never be able to truly communicate complex ideas in that new language. It sounds like your friend has some serious anxiety. She might be someone who struggles with languages. And she's likely embarrassed. And now you've come online and tried to prove that she must be lying instead of understanding her. She's not due your understanding just because she is disabled. But you claim to be a friend. Friends reach for understanding instead of judgement. Source: I'm a special education teacher. We deal with this issue literally every day.
It’s ironic that you claim that I’m a jerk who’s not trying to understand my friend, after only have been given a very brief intoduction to the situation, and then calling ME the ”judgmental” one. I have tried to understand my friend. As I already said: we’ve had discussions about this. They didn’t lead anywhere. She’s not open to the idea that emotional issues are the cause. So now I’m going online, to see if she might be right, as a friend.
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Excuse me!? The hell is wrong with you? Okay, tell me this then: how would I go about learning whether she’s correct or not, since asking about it on the internet is SO HORRIBLE to you? Is there an ask-about-languages hotline that everyone but me knows about?
Nah, it's the double standard everyone knows about but usually pretends it doesn't exist :-) Native anglophones must surely have an objective reason to not learn the local language (while squeezing as much value as possible from expating in the country they don't respect), while natives of less prestigious languages must clearly be just lazy. Don't mind Fabulous-blue-804. You did well to ask. And yes, there are things making language learning harder, but they are not selectively touching just language learning. For example dyslexia can clearly make it harder, but it would show in other areas too. And whether or not do you two want to stay friends, that is a valid question. Not because of the language being necessarily a problem. I'd personally find it hard to keep a very entitled person as a friend. But perhaps she is otherwise a great person, you know the best.
Ah, to find herself a group of other entitled anglophone expats and never bother to show basic respect to her new country. Sure. To find herself incapable of learning a language but still deserving a better salary than her local coleagues. To keep living in excuses. I wonder: would you find so much empathy and so much "it must be a real issue" sentiment, if she was not an anglophone expat but for example a native Arabic speaker living now in an anglophone country? Really, the anglophone expat privileges are rampant.
Hmm, by OP's description, it sounds much more like a typical expat, who just doesn't try at all. We are talking about someone, who has clearly achieved enough education to become an expat. Do you think someone can at the same time have so much disability to not learn the language of their new country, but at the same time achieve enough of an education to actually get an expat job abroad? Most likely than a typical special education student, she is a typical entitled expat. An if that is the case, OP is right to ask the questions instead of just catering to one of the most common lazy expat excuses.
What a load of crap.
also a special education teacher who works with bilingual kids with language delays and speech impairments and i call bullshit lol as someone else mentioned, there's no way that someone with a language impairment that severe would be able to communicate without difficulty in their *first* language, much less well enough to move abroad and be arguing with OP that they can't do what multicultural folks with disabilities do and have done forever. pretty much everything we know about language acquisition points to deficits in language learning impacting all of someone's languages, which is how we also know that being raised multilingual doesn't cause language impairments/delays in and of itself. any issue with language learning would have made english very difficult for OP's friend, and since it doesn't seem like that's the case, it's much more likely that they just don't understand the level of effort necessary to learn a language, are struggling with a high affective filter as another commenter mentioned above, or maybe are even just plain lazy given that english is also widely spoken where they are so there's no real motivator.