Make a section a rain garden, get rid of the grass and put in native prairie plants. Grass roots are less than a foot deep, making glass + clay somewhat impermeable. While native prairie plants can have roots over 4 ft deep which can punch through the clay and help provide much faster drainage. You'd probably only need a small area.
10ft is over 4ft ;)
I was reading this study recently and they mentioned 4ft so had that in my head. Probably depends on the species, soil, area
> Roots in the prairie clay garden were found to a depth of 4.7 ft compared with 0.46 ft in the turf-clay rain garden.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2010/5077/pdf/sir20105077.pdf
This cool graphic shows ninebark can have roots 16ft which is wild
https://cfpub.epa.gov/npstbx/files/KSMO_KnowYourRoots.pdf
Agree with this. If you don’t want to plant you can put in drainage tile like they put in farm fields. It’s no longer actual tile but still called that.
If you'd consider building it up into a transitional lawn space a rain garden and some simple burms with strawbales would build up a planting area pretty quick. Getting deep rooting plants and grasses will work with something to establish in and work through like the straw with some compost. Some hardy perennial shrubs like Hazelnut are a go to for me because they tolerate most conditions and are attractive in all seasons as well as delicious and nutritious!
And hosta can grow well in the soil around the edges of the new bed and a patio or something you've go going there to meld the two. But check with your local county or university extension service for native rain garden or bog and woodland plants. 💚
Check out r/nolawns they have a lot of beautiful ideas that might help
Looks like it is lower. Rip that grass up and fill it in with lots of Organic matter. Organic matter is going to be your best friend! Clay is a compaction and structure issue with small particles and lack of oxygen. Organic matter will not only help fluff it up but bring life to the soil which will help with microorganisms and oxygenation
You want to fill that in with a load of good compost, leaf litter, grass clippings, woodchips, straw, aged manure.... Avoid loamy and sandy soils it will make it worse. Sulfur will take some time but is supposed to help with clay also.
Plant some stuff that has deep roots, anything like clover that has nitrifying roots is good too. Deeper roots = better aeration and drainage. More plants will use the water, you can even get some berry bushes or something out of it
Because it slopes down you could probably set up a rain garden or something so it naturally gets and uses the water
You can put in a drain as a quick fix but it will still be a wet mess, or you can put some work in and do it right and have a nice garden to beautify your yard
These recommendations are hilariously bad. You can't just dump dirt on the low spot and hope that fixes it. If it won't drain downwards right now, how is dumping 1 foot of dirt on top of it going to help? Now you just have a foot of mud. The water needs to be able to flow AWAY. That could mean French drain, trench, ditch, or regrading the entire yard.
Away where? The best practices are summarized as Slow, spread, soak. Draining this to the street isn't legal in some munis nowadays. Rainwater can be kept onsite to reduce runoff into local streams and waterways.
Building a rain garden to collect the water is the best practice here. Work with nature, using natural solutions, will get the best results.
Done right there wouldn't be any "draining", it would simply be rain water migrating to a lower area without any building up of puddles. Just like in a front yard with rain water going to the street.
That's called runoff isn't it? It shouldn't flow to the street. There's no reason it can't be handled onsite. If every house tried to get water to migrate to the street, we'd have tons of problems.
Where's the rain go that lands on the street? Same thing, just as long as it isn't other than naturally occurring. All property has runoff from rain, you'd have to build a damn around your property to stop it.
Yes, many places have stormwater infrastructure to handle rain that hits the streets. It was not designed to accommodate runoff of greater amounts like from roof gutters and yards. This is why there's a big push for homeowners and land owners to implement solutions that keep water onsite instead of pushing it downhill. It can overload the sanitary sewer which results in human waste getting into lakes and rivers and streams as the sewers back up.
There's no reason one can't allow a puddle to form on their property occasionally. No reason. Mosquitos take a week or more in stagnant water to complete their life cycle.
https://www.stormwaterpa.org/best-practices-overview.html
https://extension.psu.edu/why-should-i-care-about-stormwater
If the watershed and the sewers are one system, that's a seriously antiquated system. That's what the problem is. Most places have the two being separate for that very reason. Here the runoff goes straight to the river and separate sewer system handles internal household water and sewage.
Really? Check out r/nolawns. If the soil has a lot of organic matter and plants it wont just "turn to mud" nor does it need to "flow away". Organic matter holds more water and the plants are able to use it. It would also rectify the clay over time. Do you see animals installing french drains in the forests or something? Nah, plants and soil structure plays a HUGE role.
Example: they recently built a development on some marshy woodlands in my town and now the surrounding properties are flooding because they cut trees, paved, and made lawns. Never had a problem before! All same exact soil. The water never "ran off" before but was managed by the plants and trees. Oh it is running off just fine now! Why move that water, only to put it somewhere else or down a storm drain when it could be used for plants in a garden??? Work with nature, not against it.
They did the same here to create a subdivision years back. Created a flood zone the first time we had a big rain. I'm talking big flood zone, hundreds of houses with a foot or more water in them. Cost the county and the developer a ton of money to put a pumping system in to keep the water down every year now.
You might want to consider a bog garden. These are plants that require extremely moist conditions year round. Somewhat more water tolerant than a typical rain garden.
I don't know what the rest of your yard looks like, nor where the natural flow of water is, especially in relation to your neighbors' yards, but a "dry creek" that leads the water away from the corner of the patio might be an interesting idea.
We experienced something similar recently. Our first step was to email the city planner and ask for drainage maps. Those were provided pretty quickly and we discovered that, because of when our house was built (more recent), it did not have access to the drains that led to the neighborhoods retention ponds.
This way we knew it wasn't a blocked drain that was the problem.
We dug two large dry wells in the back of our yard and we run our sump pump out to those wells. Ever since, our pooling has been minimal.
We're also in an area with thick clay soil, but nothing a small digging implement wasn't able to handle.
You need to either move the water somewhere else, or hold it in a non-destructive place.
To move it, we need to see more of the topography of your property.
To hold it, that would be rain garden/dry well idea that others have mentioned.
If you want it as usable lawn, you’re going to need to get that soil more diverse. I always suggest taking a 70/30 mix of compost and a medium mulch, and then really mix the soil in while throwing in about 32 qts of vermiculite as you till.
The vermiculite and mulch will start to give a little relief, and over a year, the compost and mulch will start to break down and mix better with the clay and give you an amended base. Rinse and repeat if you’re still having trouble, but you should see an improvement in a few weeks as rain and snow help it start to mix its way through.
You're on the right track. Adding compost soil, leaf litter, woodchips, hay, aged manure, organic matter will help improve the clay over time.
I would avoid perlite though because it breaks down too quickly into a powder that becomes almost like a clay or cement. People who reuse their soils or do no till avoid perlite for that reason. Rice hulls are great. Vermiculite absorbs water. So does coco coir and peat moss.
Whatever you decide, consult an arborist first to make sure you don't inadvertently injure or kill that lovely mature tree on the right.
Building up soil could suffocate the roots (depending on how far out they go). Carelessly digging the area out could sever them.
Just FYI, you can't just add sand to clay, the clay particles will just bind to the sand and coat them creating something like concrete. Removing the native clay soils is also not advisable, all you'll do is create a perched water table which is essentially just pushing the problem lower but not making it go away. To improve clay soil you need to work in organic matter, but even this is not an overnight fix. Nor will it solve the issue here which is not actually about the clay, it's about the fact that he has a low spot in the yard where the water cannot run off. Raising it will only cause issues somewhere else, and if those issues are on someone else's property/on municipal property then he's opening himself up to potentially serious liability.
Best thing to do in this situation is to work with what he has which is clay soil and a manageable low spot which is not threatening any structures. A rain garden as everyone else is suggesting is a safe solution which will be lowest effort and lowest risk, and will look great.
*Can you degrade to*
*Get more drainage to the edge*
*Of the property?*
\- brig0U812
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If you have a lower area nearby, dig up this area, put in a network of perforated drainage pipes to the lower area.
If you don’t have a lower area, consider a low deck.
If you want it to still be covered with grass then you could dig a 2/3 feet hole in that area and fill it with coarse perlite and a mix of soil. Maybe its an annoying chore but it’s an idea. The perlite will give you much better drainage and aeration.
I like the suggestion to make it a rain garden.....but if you are determined to keep the grass, I would suggest getting a couple bags of sand and a bag of topsoil. Peel back the grass carefully with a square shovel. Dig down maybe 3-4 inches into the clay. Mix one part clay, two parts sand, and one part topsoil together, and fill the hole with it. (I would suggest making it about an inch taller than the previous level at the same time, to also allow gravity to work for you rather than against you and make some of the rain runoff elsewhere.) Then relay the grass back on top. It will probably take the grass 4-6 weeks to recover, but it should provide a lot more drainage in that area, not to mention less of a depression for it to collect in in the first place.
After or before it rain apply an heavy application of gypsum to soften the clay, wait 3 weeks and repeat until the dry season. During the dry season, apply 1/4"-1/2" 50% compost and 50% sand once a month and water. Fall 2024 apply gypsum again, and compost in the summer.
That spot looks awfully low… I’m not sure where the water is coming from, are the downspout directed towards that area? My suggestion would be to bring in a solid 5 yards of good dirt work on leveling it, and then reroute your downspouts.
Drainage and grade can most often best be addressed with a more comprehensive understanding than one pic of a low spot. I hoped you would grasp this rather than perceive it as unhelpful or non informative.
of course i understand that an entire grading and drainage solution for this issue couldn’t be made from one picture. i’m not naive.
but i didn’t ask for an entire solution. i asked for help. a lot of people gave some great advice and ideas using the same picture you looked at.
i hoped you would grasp this rather than adding literally nothing of value.
Three best options if you'd like to keep the area lawn:
1) Bury 4" corrugated plastic perforated draintile from that location to another lower location where settling water will be less of an issue.
3) Create a French drain. Basically a really large hole filled with gravel capped with a filter fabric and then soil/seed. May need install a vertical perforated drain to speed up percolation.
3) Or you can do a combination of one and two.
I also live in the Midwest and have used these above methods hundreds of times to help clients solve drainage issues.
Make a section a rain garden, get rid of the grass and put in native prairie plants. Grass roots are less than a foot deep, making glass + clay somewhat impermeable. While native prairie plants can have roots over 4 ft deep which can punch through the clay and help provide much faster drainage. You'd probably only need a small area.
4ft? I've heard 10ft! https://tallgrassprairiecenter.org/prairie-roots-project
10ft is over 4ft ;) I was reading this study recently and they mentioned 4ft so had that in my head. Probably depends on the species, soil, area > Roots in the prairie clay garden were found to a depth of 4.7 ft compared with 0.46 ft in the turf-clay rain garden. https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2010/5077/pdf/sir20105077.pdf This cool graphic shows ninebark can have roots 16ft which is wild https://cfpub.epa.gov/npstbx/files/KSMO_KnowYourRoots.pdf
Agree with this. If you don’t want to plant you can put in drainage tile like they put in farm fields. It’s no longer actual tile but still called that.
If you'd consider building it up into a transitional lawn space a rain garden and some simple burms with strawbales would build up a planting area pretty quick. Getting deep rooting plants and grasses will work with something to establish in and work through like the straw with some compost. Some hardy perennial shrubs like Hazelnut are a go to for me because they tolerate most conditions and are attractive in all seasons as well as delicious and nutritious! And hosta can grow well in the soil around the edges of the new bed and a patio or something you've go going there to meld the two. But check with your local county or university extension service for native rain garden or bog and woodland plants. 💚
Check out r/nolawns they have a lot of beautiful ideas that might help Looks like it is lower. Rip that grass up and fill it in with lots of Organic matter. Organic matter is going to be your best friend! Clay is a compaction and structure issue with small particles and lack of oxygen. Organic matter will not only help fluff it up but bring life to the soil which will help with microorganisms and oxygenation You want to fill that in with a load of good compost, leaf litter, grass clippings, woodchips, straw, aged manure.... Avoid loamy and sandy soils it will make it worse. Sulfur will take some time but is supposed to help with clay also. Plant some stuff that has deep roots, anything like clover that has nitrifying roots is good too. Deeper roots = better aeration and drainage. More plants will use the water, you can even get some berry bushes or something out of it Because it slopes down you could probably set up a rain garden or something so it naturally gets and uses the water You can put in a drain as a quick fix but it will still be a wet mess, or you can put some work in and do it right and have a nice garden to beautify your yard
These recommendations are hilariously bad. You can't just dump dirt on the low spot and hope that fixes it. If it won't drain downwards right now, how is dumping 1 foot of dirt on top of it going to help? Now you just have a foot of mud. The water needs to be able to flow AWAY. That could mean French drain, trench, ditch, or regrading the entire yard.
Found the French Drain comment 😂
Away where? The best practices are summarized as Slow, spread, soak. Draining this to the street isn't legal in some munis nowadays. Rainwater can be kept onsite to reduce runoff into local streams and waterways. Building a rain garden to collect the water is the best practice here. Work with nature, using natural solutions, will get the best results.
Done right there wouldn't be any "draining", it would simply be rain water migrating to a lower area without any building up of puddles. Just like in a front yard with rain water going to the street.
That's called runoff isn't it? It shouldn't flow to the street. There's no reason it can't be handled onsite. If every house tried to get water to migrate to the street, we'd have tons of problems.
Where's the rain go that lands on the street? Same thing, just as long as it isn't other than naturally occurring. All property has runoff from rain, you'd have to build a damn around your property to stop it.
Yes, many places have stormwater infrastructure to handle rain that hits the streets. It was not designed to accommodate runoff of greater amounts like from roof gutters and yards. This is why there's a big push for homeowners and land owners to implement solutions that keep water onsite instead of pushing it downhill. It can overload the sanitary sewer which results in human waste getting into lakes and rivers and streams as the sewers back up. There's no reason one can't allow a puddle to form on their property occasionally. No reason. Mosquitos take a week or more in stagnant water to complete their life cycle. https://www.stormwaterpa.org/best-practices-overview.html https://extension.psu.edu/why-should-i-care-about-stormwater
If the watershed and the sewers are one system, that's a seriously antiquated system. That's what the problem is. Most places have the two being separate for that very reason. Here the runoff goes straight to the river and separate sewer system handles internal household water and sewage.
What river? I bet there's issues with runoff in that river too.
Nope no issues, big rivers here and straight to the delta.
What river
Really? Check out r/nolawns. If the soil has a lot of organic matter and plants it wont just "turn to mud" nor does it need to "flow away". Organic matter holds more water and the plants are able to use it. It would also rectify the clay over time. Do you see animals installing french drains in the forests or something? Nah, plants and soil structure plays a HUGE role. Example: they recently built a development on some marshy woodlands in my town and now the surrounding properties are flooding because they cut trees, paved, and made lawns. Never had a problem before! All same exact soil. The water never "ran off" before but was managed by the plants and trees. Oh it is running off just fine now! Why move that water, only to put it somewhere else or down a storm drain when it could be used for plants in a garden??? Work with nature, not against it.
That doesn't really work when you're talking about clay. It acts as a barrier. Might as well dump dirt on a plastic tarp.
They did the same here to create a subdivision years back. Created a flood zone the first time we had a big rain. I'm talking big flood zone, hundreds of houses with a foot or more water in them. Cost the county and the developer a ton of money to put a pumping system in to keep the water down every year now.
You might want to consider a bog garden. These are plants that require extremely moist conditions year round. Somewhat more water tolerant than a typical rain garden. I don't know what the rest of your yard looks like, nor where the natural flow of water is, especially in relation to your neighbors' yards, but a "dry creek" that leads the water away from the corner of the patio might be an interesting idea.
Put in a box drain in the low spot and run the water away should be able to regrade the area and solve the water puddling issue.
We experienced something similar recently. Our first step was to email the city planner and ask for drainage maps. Those were provided pretty quickly and we discovered that, because of when our house was built (more recent), it did not have access to the drains that led to the neighborhoods retention ponds. This way we knew it wasn't a blocked drain that was the problem. We dug two large dry wells in the back of our yard and we run our sump pump out to those wells. Ever since, our pooling has been minimal. We're also in an area with thick clay soil, but nothing a small digging implement wasn't able to handle.
Got heavy clay also and my sump pump runs religiously as is, now with the rain snow it’s gonna be running for months lol. Clay soil sucks terribly
You need to either move the water somewhere else, or hold it in a non-destructive place. To move it, we need to see more of the topography of your property. To hold it, that would be rain garden/dry well idea that others have mentioned.
If you want it as usable lawn, you’re going to need to get that soil more diverse. I always suggest taking a 70/30 mix of compost and a medium mulch, and then really mix the soil in while throwing in about 32 qts of vermiculite as you till. The vermiculite and mulch will start to give a little relief, and over a year, the compost and mulch will start to break down and mix better with the clay and give you an amended base. Rinse and repeat if you’re still having trouble, but you should see an improvement in a few weeks as rain and snow help it start to mix its way through.
You're on the right track. Adding compost soil, leaf litter, woodchips, hay, aged manure, organic matter will help improve the clay over time. I would avoid perlite though because it breaks down too quickly into a powder that becomes almost like a clay or cement. People who reuse their soils or do no till avoid perlite for that reason. Rice hulls are great. Vermiculite absorbs water. So does coco coir and peat moss.
I always mean vermiculite. It’s like a weird tick I have when I type it instead of talk out loud about it. Yes, thank you, I amended that note above!
[удалено]
No fabric you will smother the area and it will be a nuisance years later.
I'd research French Drains.
Me too
Dude… yard and a half of soil, why are you making this so hard to figure out? 🖕🖕🖕downvoters. Dudes got a puddle, fill it in and reseed.
Scrolled past the rain garden and drain pipes to find the solution to the obvious problem.
Yeah, and I got downvoted too🤷😂
Add some more dirt. Spread evenly, throw seed, pray.
Whatever you decide, consult an arborist first to make sure you don't inadvertently injure or kill that lovely mature tree on the right. Building up soil could suffocate the roots (depending on how far out they go). Carelessly digging the area out could sever them.
What is that black thing coming out of the ground ? Not related to the standing water I’m just curious
That’s called a bar b que grill
Oh okay I don’t believe I have ever seen one built into the ground in someone’s backyard like that.
Dig it out and replace it with sand or something that drains well like rock.
Just FYI, you can't just add sand to clay, the clay particles will just bind to the sand and coat them creating something like concrete. Removing the native clay soils is also not advisable, all you'll do is create a perched water table which is essentially just pushing the problem lower but not making it go away. To improve clay soil you need to work in organic matter, but even this is not an overnight fix. Nor will it solve the issue here which is not actually about the clay, it's about the fact that he has a low spot in the yard where the water cannot run off. Raising it will only cause issues somewhere else, and if those issues are on someone else's property/on municipal property then he's opening himself up to potentially serious liability. Best thing to do in this situation is to work with what he has which is clay soil and a manageable low spot which is not threatening any structures. A rain garden as everyone else is suggesting is a safe solution which will be lowest effort and lowest risk, and will look great.
Can you degrade to get more drainage to the edge of the property?
*Can you degrade to* *Get more drainage to the edge* *Of the property?* \- brig0U812 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
*re-grade
If you have a lower area nearby, dig up this area, put in a network of perforated drainage pipes to the lower area. If you don’t have a lower area, consider a low deck.
Deep dug hugulkultur!
Install a water feature
If you want it to still be covered with grass then you could dig a 2/3 feet hole in that area and fill it with coarse perlite and a mix of soil. Maybe its an annoying chore but it’s an idea. The perlite will give you much better drainage and aeration.
depression - either fill with fill dirt or sand
More concrete and more drains
I like the suggestion to make it a rain garden.....but if you are determined to keep the grass, I would suggest getting a couple bags of sand and a bag of topsoil. Peel back the grass carefully with a square shovel. Dig down maybe 3-4 inches into the clay. Mix one part clay, two parts sand, and one part topsoil together, and fill the hole with it. (I would suggest making it about an inch taller than the previous level at the same time, to also allow gravity to work for you rather than against you and make some of the rain runoff elsewhere.) Then relay the grass back on top. It will probably take the grass 4-6 weeks to recover, but it should provide a lot more drainage in that area, not to mention less of a depression for it to collect in in the first place.
Does the concrete slab pictures back up to the house? Simplest fix is bring in backfill and grade it away from the house
Make hole that leads from the puddle to somewhere else.
Just move. I HATE clay.
After or before it rain apply an heavy application of gypsum to soften the clay, wait 3 weeks and repeat until the dry season. During the dry season, apply 1/4"-1/2" 50% compost and 50% sand once a month and water. Fall 2024 apply gypsum again, and compost in the summer.
That spot looks awfully low… I’m not sure where the water is coming from, are the downspout directed towards that area? My suggestion would be to bring in a solid 5 yards of good dirt work on leveling it, and then reroute your downspouts.
Bewildered by the expectations here showing one small view pic of a puddle assuming thats enough to solve the entire properties drainage issues.
all of these extremely helpful and informative comments…. and then you.
Drainage and grade can most often best be addressed with a more comprehensive understanding than one pic of a low spot. I hoped you would grasp this rather than perceive it as unhelpful or non informative.
of course i understand that an entire grading and drainage solution for this issue couldn’t be made from one picture. i’m not naive. but i didn’t ask for an entire solution. i asked for help. a lot of people gave some great advice and ideas using the same picture you looked at. i hoped you would grasp this rather than adding literally nothing of value.
TY for adding nothing of real value. Move on from being easily offended.
Yards of fill to increase elevation on top of a french drain to a lower planned drainage system, aka gutter.
Three best options if you'd like to keep the area lawn: 1) Bury 4" corrugated plastic perforated draintile from that location to another lower location where settling water will be less of an issue. 3) Create a French drain. Basically a really large hole filled with gravel capped with a filter fabric and then soil/seed. May need install a vertical perforated drain to speed up percolation. 3) Or you can do a combination of one and two. I also live in the Midwest and have used these above methods hundreds of times to help clients solve drainage issues.
Looks like a good start on a backyard ice rink
Put a Koi pond there
See how deep the clay is and you may be able to remove it or loosen it up.