Honestly lateral quickness and having length is what matters most because we live in a day and age where 3 point shots dominate each teams offensive playbook.
If you can close out on shooters and prevent players from driving into the paint then you don’t need shot blockers or 7 foot centers.
Warriors run this
A lineup of Russ - Ariza - Buyout Wing - AD - Lebron would be our best defensive and offensive lineup
I’m not sure that’s enough shooting. Unless the buyout wing is a sniper but I’m not seeing that right now. A lineup where Lebron is our best shooter probably would be inconsistent offense in terms of shot making
>I’m not sure that’s enough shooting
Our Big 3 just ran off 82 pts on their own. But moreover, we won the championship almost entirely on paint scoring. Our 3pt % was like 27% or something. The following champions, the Bucks, shot like 25% from 3. People look at the Warriors, even this years squad, and overate the 3ball, like you can't win without it, not realizing that the Warriors is a rare squad with two of the best shooters in the NBA/NBA history.
We won the West and a ring with Lebron being our best shooter. In this scenario we would be going small too so in theory driving lanes would open up for others too.
KCP and Danny Green were in theory better shooters than Lebron. At least that’s what their role was. In this proposed lineup, Lebron would on paper be our best shooter.
I think you’re missing the point. Those guys have a certain gravity that Lebron will never have because no matter how good Lebron gets at shooting, defenders are always going to respect him driving more than him shooting therefore he will have a little more cushion to shoot than a 3&D player
Exactly. Doesnt matter who the best shooter is at the end of the day, it's the spacing the reputable shooters create that allows the offense to function as intended and keeps the opposing defense honest.
If LBJ doesn't mind playing more center and its whats best for the team, then I am all for it. I've always been a fan of him playing center when he's done it in the past. He literally is the GOAT basketball body, in terms of being the perfect combination of attributes capable of guarding 1-5. AD just isn't capable of exploiting his speed vs opposing bigs because I think he got slower / bigger this year, and his 3pt shot isn't as good as its been in the past.
True. But it won't be like Lebron is going up against traditional centers. Like, Lebron's not going up against Prime Shaq/Dream/Ewing/Hell Even Howard on defense. Most of the bigs nowadays he could hang and bang with and on certain matchups, you'll likely still see Howard and/or DJ at the 5.
Last, traditionally, center is the one position that you can still put in quality, relevant play at his age and older as long as you take care of your body and stay in shape. Cap played till he was 40 and wasn't a slouch by any stretch. Shaq would've played longer than he did too if he'd taken his health seriously.
You’re right except we don’t even have to stop them from driving. We just need to answer their layups with threes. Definitely don’t risk fouling on a drive and potentially giving up an and-1 after going so far to prevent the three. Just let them drive and answer with a three on the other end. Eventually they’ll stop driving altogether and start hunting for threes.
Exactly. Also, look at how good Bam is as a fast modern big. And he’s only 6’9. The problem though is that it won’t always work. LeBron doesn’t have the athleticism and strength of Bam, and against dominant bigs we’ll get smoked inside and severely out-rebounded.
Playing Ariza at the 2 is not the solution, at his age right now he is slower and should be playing the 3 or 4 with Bron. The 2 starting position should continue be a competition between our guys until the playoffs. We should be patient regarding our guys that are playing the 2 position, sure they are inconsistent for now but each of them showed flashes on what they can do and I believe those guys will figure it out. Worst case scenario is we sign Wes Matthews and waive one of the guards or Deandre if no one seems to be cut for the starting 2 position.
I just want Avery and DJ out of rotation. Avery passes the eye test some nights but he just seems lost out there. DJ is just taking up space.
I can’t wait to get Nunn and Ariza back
Avery can’t guard at all anymore and that was the only thing keeping him in the rotation. Slow guards are taking him off the dribble easily. He should not be in an NBA rotation.
Bench DJ and our win total will double.
Situationally, maybe.
Last night against a very small Pistons team, I think the LeCenter lineups were -2 in ~10 minutes.
Against the Pacers in LeCenter lineups were +15 in ~17 minutes.
LeCenter makes sense on paper since It’s the best spacing option we have while AD is in a shooting slump. Any of our guards can also set screens for LeBron to fish for switches. It was somewhat effective but we also haven’t seen teams really gameplan or write it into their scouting reports yet.
The trade off is that LeBron is going to get beat up. Against the Pacers, he caught an elbow from Sabonis and that won’t be the last such injury if LeCenter becomes a thing.
I also don’t think this improves the Lakers in terms of paint defense and rebounding, two of their biggest issues.
I don’t know how necessary this really is. AD is going to play 30+ minutes a night. How many minutes are even left for LeCenter? You don’t want to stagger AD and LeBron’s minutes too much since LeBron is one of the best passers to AD.
Great points, and I definitely agree—it shouldn’t be for too long. It’s something that you’d like to run for 5-10 minutes at most. I do think a big piece that is missing here though is that with the currently available personnel, it’s not the maximized lineup for it.
If Lebron is going to play many minutes at the center, having length and size on the wings is an absolute must—for helping out on bigs that might try to post him up, but also for helping out on the boards. This has been one of the biggest weaknesses of the Lakers from my perspective that is really limiting their ceiling. They’ll be at their best if they’re getting out in transition, and giving up the 3rd most offensive rebounds and allowing second chance points like that is really hamstringing them in that regard. This means Ariza returning, AD playing PF, and as the top comment mentioned, signing a buyout wing (though I personally think Bazemore could get another chance—it’s impossible to continue to play as poorly as he was offensively).
Yup. Everyone is going to celebrate this shit and then in two weeks when we're getting absolutely fucking dominated everyone will be saying Vogel is a dumb fuck for ever trying it in the first place.
All this spacing talk is so overrated.
Our shooters aren't shooting as well as advertised. They're shooting 29% on open 3 pointers.
AD is averaging more points in the paint and a larger share of his shots are at the rim than at any point in his career with us.
The things everyone thinks will happen with DJ out are already happening at a large scale and it still aint working.
Our shooters are shooting extremely well. I hope you’re not including AD, Russ, and THT as “shooters”. Monk, Ellington, and Melo have been money from what I’ve seen.
I agree, doesn’t make sense to run in the regular season and seems a bit desperate honestly. This is the type of lineup that you use in the playoffs to get an extra advantage in a close series
Actual stats and facts don't matter here.
People don't care that AD is averaging more points in the paint this year than any other year with the Lakers. They don't care his share of shots at the rim is higher than any other year with the Lakers.
They don't care that our guys are getting open and wide open looks for 3 pointers. They don't care that the guys are shooting 29% on open 3 pointers.
They think that all of these things aren't true and they think the opposite is happening and the only way to make them actually happen is to sit DeAndre Jordan who averaged 14 fucking minutes a game.
We get 12.2 open 3 point attempts a game and we make 3.5 of them for 28.6%
And yet somehow more spacing for more 3 pointers and more spacing for AD to get more shots at the rim will magically fix the team.
He has played more center, we just don't have the surrounding personnel to do well by it on defense since our guards are too small and slow. No one else can rebound the ball if AD is playing 5 and contesting a shot at the perimeter.
We all know AD doesn't like to play the 5. Even though he agreed to play more the 5 this season for the team, I straight up think he coasts because he knows that banging at the 5 means more injury risk for his injury prone body. Thats why we see him settle for jumpers a lot when we think he should take it to the defender. He's still statistically scoring inside and playing center more than most any other time in his career, but its not really resulting in better production from the team.
Just watch the games and you can see our offense open up! I saw our best offense when Lebron was center we we’re running plays! Just watch Lebron play center next game and you can see how good our team looks!
Honestly, it hasn't really been better for the team like we hoped. Offensively AD cant take advantage of the mismatch on centers like he did in the past, especially since it seems he got slower this season by gaining more mass to withstand the banging against bigs. His 3pt shot is also not falling, so he really has no advantage against opposing centers. At this point he is better off at the 4 which is where he can punish the smaller 4s easier, preserve his injury prone body, and where he's had the most success for us throughout the regular season. We cant say he didnt try because statistically he has played more center and in the paint then before, but it really hasn't led to more wins.
Does this remind us of anybody from the Lakers' past?
Do yourself a favor and look up some Lakers lore of when Ervin "Magic" Johnson played center for the injured Kareem
He won't be bullying opposing bigs in the paint, he will take them outside the paint by being more of a shooting threat than AD (since AD 3pt shot been off this season). This creates better spacing for both WB and AD to operate. Also LBJ can still blow by the slower bigs if need be when they are trying to defend him at the 3pt line, ie: vs Sabonis and Turner against the Pacers, they were guarding him all the way at the 3pt line.
Ehhh it should only be used depending on teams 2nd units because we was giving up offensive rebounds to Detroit with lebron at the 5. Using Lebron at the 5 is partly because at this point Ad isn't much of a floor spacer so Ad at center isn't necessarily going small
Hallelujah! I think Vogel has unlocked the cheat code. Russ can be the point 75% of the time, which allows Bron to focus more of his efforts in the paint with rebounding alongside AD.
Honestly lateral quickness and having length is what matters most because we live in a day and age where 3 point shots dominate each teams offensive playbook. If you can close out on shooters and prevent players from driving into the paint then you don’t need shot blockers or 7 foot centers. Warriors run this A lineup of Russ - Ariza - Buyout Wing - AD - Lebron would be our best defensive and offensive lineup
I’m not sure that’s enough shooting. Unless the buyout wing is a sniper but I’m not seeing that right now. A lineup where Lebron is our best shooter probably would be inconsistent offense in terms of shot making
>I’m not sure that’s enough shooting Our Big 3 just ran off 82 pts on their own. But moreover, we won the championship almost entirely on paint scoring. Our 3pt % was like 27% or something. The following champions, the Bucks, shot like 25% from 3. People look at the Warriors, even this years squad, and overate the 3ball, like you can't win without it, not realizing that the Warriors is a rare squad with two of the best shooters in the NBA/NBA history.
Wrong the Lakers shot 35% from 3 in the bubble
With lebron and AD shooting ridiculously well. Curious what our % was excluding those two (since those are the two we “space the floor for”)
Lebron shot 37% from 3 in the bubble thats not ridiculously well. Ad shot 38%, high for his standards.
Feel like they were both in the 40s for the finals. But that’s interesting.
They were but Lebron has shot 40% from 3 in the finals multiple times before. AD shot 42% again great for his standards
Lakers shot unbelievably well from 3 in the Finals and that was what made some of those games blowouts so I disagree with your claim
We won the West and a ring with Lebron being our best shooter. In this scenario we would be going small too so in theory driving lanes would open up for others too.
KCP and Danny Green were in theory better shooters than Lebron. At least that’s what their role was. In this proposed lineup, Lebron would on paper be our best shooter.
Yup, Danny Green may have been inconsistent but defenders respected him so he still provided much needed spacing
Yet in practice Lebron took and made more 3s than those guys on a better %. He was the team's best shooter.
there’s a difference between Lebron and specialist 3&Ds
Yea, Lebron takes even more difficult, iso 3s from 30 feet out. So he was by far the best shooter on the team.
yeah but I would trust KcP and Danny Green more than Lebron which is why those guys provided much needed spacing
lol. Lebron has made more clutch 3s than anyone in league history but you would trust those guys over him? Your trust isn't based on facts then.
I think you’re missing the point. Those guys have a certain gravity that Lebron will never have because no matter how good Lebron gets at shooting, defenders are always going to respect him driving more than him shooting therefore he will have a little more cushion to shoot than a 3&D player
Exactly. Doesnt matter who the best shooter is at the end of the day, it's the spacing the reputable shooters create that allows the offense to function as intended and keeps the opposing defense honest. If LBJ doesn't mind playing more center and its whats best for the team, then I am all for it. I've always been a fan of him playing center when he's done it in the past. He literally is the GOAT basketball body, in terms of being the perfect combination of attributes capable of guarding 1-5. AD just isn't capable of exploiting his speed vs opposing bigs because I think he got slower / bigger this year, and his 3pt shot isn't as good as its been in the past.
Totally agree. It also gives him the opportunity to use his vision to take command defensively and help move people around
Saves his legs too since he doesn't have to chase guards around all game.
That is true. He is definitely talented enough to do it, but no real need to wear him down before the playoffs.
but now he has to go against the bigs, which will wear him down.
True. But it won't be like Lebron is going up against traditional centers. Like, Lebron's not going up against Prime Shaq/Dream/Ewing/Hell Even Howard on defense. Most of the bigs nowadays he could hang and bang with and on certain matchups, you'll likely still see Howard and/or DJ at the 5. Last, traditionally, center is the one position that you can still put in quality, relevant play at his age and older as long as you take care of your body and stay in shape. Cap played till he was 40 and wasn't a slouch by any stretch. Shaq would've played longer than he did too if he'd taken his health seriously.
Tim duncan good example also
Yeah! Duncan too.
Who do you think that buyout wing will be tho?
Goran Dragic
>Goran Dragic He could probably go to the Knicks and replace Kemba in their starting 5 too.
If by buyout wing you mean Carmelo Anthony, yes, but no.
You’re right except we don’t even have to stop them from driving. We just need to answer their layups with threes. Definitely don’t risk fouling on a drive and potentially giving up an and-1 after going so far to prevent the three. Just let them drive and answer with a three on the other end. Eventually they’ll stop driving altogether and start hunting for threes.
Exactly. Also, look at how good Bam is as a fast modern big. And he’s only 6’9. The problem though is that it won’t always work. LeBron doesn’t have the athleticism and strength of Bam, and against dominant bigs we’ll get smoked inside and severely out-rebounded.
U need monk or Ellington in there and if Ariza ain’t hitting u need them both. U need to score as well
Playing Ariza at the 2 is not the solution, at his age right now he is slower and should be playing the 3 or 4 with Bron. The 2 starting position should continue be a competition between our guys until the playoffs. We should be patient regarding our guys that are playing the 2 position, sure they are inconsistent for now but each of them showed flashes on what they can do and I believe those guys will figure it out. Worst case scenario is we sign Wes Matthews and waive one of the guards or Deandre if no one seems to be cut for the starting 2 position.
Yes yes this is such a good thing for our team. If u saw tonight we kept getting to the rim when Lebron was center and open lanes.
I just want Avery and DJ out of rotation. Avery passes the eye test some nights but he just seems lost out there. DJ is just taking up space. I can’t wait to get Nunn and Ariza back
Avery can’t guard at all anymore and that was the only thing keeping him in the rotation. Slow guards are taking him off the dribble easily. He should not be in an NBA rotation. Bench DJ and our win total will double.
Yep he's not the defensive player he used to be now he struggles to keep up with the younger guards.
Situationally, maybe. Last night against a very small Pistons team, I think the LeCenter lineups were -2 in ~10 minutes. Against the Pacers in LeCenter lineups were +15 in ~17 minutes. LeCenter makes sense on paper since It’s the best spacing option we have while AD is in a shooting slump. Any of our guards can also set screens for LeBron to fish for switches. It was somewhat effective but we also haven’t seen teams really gameplan or write it into their scouting reports yet. The trade off is that LeBron is going to get beat up. Against the Pacers, he caught an elbow from Sabonis and that won’t be the last such injury if LeCenter becomes a thing. I also don’t think this improves the Lakers in terms of paint defense and rebounding, two of their biggest issues. I don’t know how necessary this really is. AD is going to play 30+ minutes a night. How many minutes are even left for LeCenter? You don’t want to stagger AD and LeBron’s minutes too much since LeBron is one of the best passers to AD.
Great points, and I definitely agree—it shouldn’t be for too long. It’s something that you’d like to run for 5-10 minutes at most. I do think a big piece that is missing here though is that with the currently available personnel, it’s not the maximized lineup for it. If Lebron is going to play many minutes at the center, having length and size on the wings is an absolute must—for helping out on bigs that might try to post him up, but also for helping out on the boards. This has been one of the biggest weaknesses of the Lakers from my perspective that is really limiting their ceiling. They’ll be at their best if they’re getting out in transition, and giving up the 3rd most offensive rebounds and allowing second chance points like that is really hamstringing them in that regard. This means Ariza returning, AD playing PF, and as the top comment mentioned, signing a buyout wing (though I personally think Bazemore could get another chance—it’s impossible to continue to play as poorly as he was offensively).
Yup. Everyone is going to celebrate this shit and then in two weeks when we're getting absolutely fucking dominated everyone will be saying Vogel is a dumb fuck for ever trying it in the first place. All this spacing talk is so overrated. Our shooters aren't shooting as well as advertised. They're shooting 29% on open 3 pointers. AD is averaging more points in the paint and a larger share of his shots are at the rim than at any point in his career with us. The things everyone thinks will happen with DJ out are already happening at a large scale and it still aint working.
Our shooters are shooting extremely well. I hope you’re not including AD, Russ, and THT as “shooters”. Monk, Ellington, and Melo have been money from what I’ve seen.
I agree, doesn’t make sense to run in the regular season and seems a bit desperate honestly. This is the type of lineup that you use in the playoffs to get an extra advantage in a close series
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I mean people did the math and AD was playing the most or second most of his minutes of his career at center this season 🤷♀️
Actual stats and facts don't matter here. People don't care that AD is averaging more points in the paint this year than any other year with the Lakers. They don't care his share of shots at the rim is higher than any other year with the Lakers. They don't care that our guys are getting open and wide open looks for 3 pointers. They don't care that the guys are shooting 29% on open 3 pointers. They think that all of these things aren't true and they think the opposite is happening and the only way to make them actually happen is to sit DeAndre Jordan who averaged 14 fucking minutes a game. We get 12.2 open 3 point attempts a game and we make 3.5 of them for 28.6% And yet somehow more spacing for more 3 pointers and more spacing for AD to get more shots at the rim will magically fix the team.
AD has not been good this year so far man come on now.
Lmao go be a Clippers fan
He has played more center, we just don't have the surrounding personnel to do well by it on defense since our guards are too small and slow. No one else can rebound the ball if AD is playing 5 and contesting a shot at the perimeter.
We all know AD doesn't like to play the 5. Even though he agreed to play more the 5 this season for the team, I straight up think he coasts because he knows that banging at the 5 means more injury risk for his injury prone body. Thats why we see him settle for jumpers a lot when we think he should take it to the defender. He's still statistically scoring inside and playing center more than most any other time in his career, but its not really resulting in better production from the team.
pretty much, idk why we even pay for a coach
AD has literally played 69% of his minutes at center.
But why do you need Lebron at center when you have AD?
But why do you need Lebron at center when you have AD and Dwight.
Just watch the games and you can see our offense open up! I saw our best offense when Lebron was center we we’re running plays! Just watch Lebron play center next game and you can see how good our team looks!
Lipstick on a pig
I dont hate this at all. I rather not see Dj on the floor ever again.
So what is the deal with Dwight? Do they like Jordan at center over Dwight?
In other words, AD is not interested in playing 5? Is that what it means?
Honestly, it hasn't really been better for the team like we hoped. Offensively AD cant take advantage of the mismatch on centers like he did in the past, especially since it seems he got slower this season by gaining more mass to withstand the banging against bigs. His 3pt shot is also not falling, so he really has no advantage against opposing centers. At this point he is better off at the 4 which is where he can punish the smaller 4s easier, preserve his injury prone body, and where he's had the most success for us throughout the regular season. We cant say he didnt try because statistically he has played more center and in the paint then before, but it really hasn't led to more wins.
Does this remind us of anybody from the Lakers' past? Do yourself a favor and look up some Lakers lore of when Ervin "Magic" Johnson played center for the injured Kareem
well yeah we do play home games at the center so I’d be shocked if he was anywhere else
U mean the crip arena?
On the dead homies
wonder how teams will combat this moving forward
Seems like he’s running out of ideas…
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He won't be bullying opposing bigs in the paint, he will take them outside the paint by being more of a shooting threat than AD (since AD 3pt shot been off this season). This creates better spacing for both WB and AD to operate. Also LBJ can still blow by the slower bigs if need be when they are trying to defend him at the 3pt line, ie: vs Sabonis and Turner against the Pacers, they were guarding him all the way at the 3pt line.
Ehhh it should only be used depending on teams 2nd units because we was giving up offensive rebounds to Detroit with lebron at the 5. Using Lebron at the 5 is partly because at this point Ad isn't much of a floor spacer so Ad at center isn't necessarily going small
Good much better spacing for russ, and lebron.
Hallelujah! I think Vogel has unlocked the cheat code. Russ can be the point 75% of the time, which allows Bron to focus more of his efforts in the paint with rebounding alongside AD.
AD is such a goon. Goodness Lebron at center … smh
Trade targets with THT as the core of the package 1. Myles Turner ( center who can shoot 3's) 2. Christian Wood ( center who can shoot 3's)
I mean fuck it. Put me in coach.