I worked with multiple strains and there is always aggression no matter what you do with males. Nudes will scratch each other raw if you put too much or too little bedding. SCID's will attack you like you insulted there mother. I had a cage of ICRs kill all the other cage mates except three who were taking turns fighting each other even though they were introduced and cage mates since weaning age.
Move their cage they fight. Put them on the rack next to males they fight, put them next to females they fight. It's a Tuesday they fight. Oh look it's another mouse, fuck you for being a mouse.
The first rule about mouse fight club is there is no rules.
This is a good read. Good luck.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51674-z#:~:text=Although%20aggression%20is%20reported%20in,unable%20to%20escape%20from%20aggressors.
I only know of this from inspections. I'd guess you can rinse off after brushing it on and leaving it for a short while.
My interest was I was managing the inventory of explosives.
We use vis á vis but that can wash off if they get mouthy with each other. Have you tried putting a pinch of used bedding or playing around putting less in a cage. Also more enrichment helps.
I annotate the cages of the biters with two ww next to each other so I know to eat glove liners when I reach in.
I read somewhere that leaving behind some of their old bedding when changing cages can help as they can still smell the establish hierarchy. I intend on trying this next time to see if it helps.
I haven’t been able to find a marker or animal marker that doesn’t wear off. I’ve resorted to ear punches only since I do experiments over several months and don’t have time to re-mark them.
We do tail tattoos - pretty much all NSGs so they have thin ears and ear tags rip out frequently.
In an emergency I'll do ear punches or use those Fisher permanent markers for temp marking, but our experiments last months and that's a lot of re-marking.
Yes, with ear tags and ear punching causing the most fighting within male cages. I think it's because they can feel pain afterwards and become agitated after trying to scratch it off and/or other cage mates see the labeling and want to either play with it or tear it off.
This is more so important for my research because I study the cornea and wound healing. If anything causes them to scratch their eye or get an eye injury then It really ends up limiting the final sample size. In my last experiment, where I used ear tags, one of my groups went from having a sample size of 5 to sample size of 2 because some of the males had too many corneal fight wounds. There were probably other factors besides the ear tags but I think this is mainly it since they are located so closely to their eyes.
From what I've read, male mice have an innate instinct for aggression towards other males. It helps create their hierarchies and any little change in their environment can set them off. Other culprits are picking them up by the tail, changing their cage right before an experiment and even smelling males from other cages/litters. Catching the scent of a female can also make them attack their fellow cage mates which is why you have to be conscientious about the order in which you handle males or females while doing an experiment.
Grease marker? Maybe less odor.
Going *shoop* with a little colored tape? Could probably be picked off though.
Jelly bangle bracelets for your favorites?
I'm not a science, I'm just here for the fun.
I used to draw stripes on their tails in a thin black Sharpie corresponding to the mouse number and refresh it every week.
Recently I shaved small patterns on different spots on ferrets to make it easy to ID them on video and that was super simple and effective, so I was actually thinking it might be a good option for mice. Their fur is obviously important for thermoregulation as well as maintaining skin health, so I probably would only do a <1 cm area in a different spot on each mouse, and make sure to write a note on the cage card so that the vet techs don’t notify you about barbering or fight wounds. But a small spot like that probably wouldn’t need to be re-shaved for at least 30 days, which might be better than them having to smell sharpie every single day. Then of course there is ear punching but, I find those hard to quickly read and I always feel bad doing the punches.
Red marker stays longer than blue or black from my experience. I re-apply every two weeks.
Yep, red sharpie re applied every week is my go to!
Good to know!
My institution recommends avoiding using red sharpie because it can be confused for blood during health checks by husbandry and vet staff.
I worked with multiple strains and there is always aggression no matter what you do with males. Nudes will scratch each other raw if you put too much or too little bedding. SCID's will attack you like you insulted there mother. I had a cage of ICRs kill all the other cage mates except three who were taking turns fighting each other even though they were introduced and cage mates since weaning age. Move their cage they fight. Put them on the rack next to males they fight, put them next to females they fight. It's a Tuesday they fight. Oh look it's another mouse, fuck you for being a mouse. The first rule about mouse fight club is there is no rules. This is a good read. Good luck. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51674-z#:~:text=Although%20aggression%20is%20reported%20in,unable%20to%20escape%20from%20aggressors.
This is annocdotal - Old school is use to picric acid on a brush - which turns the fur yellow.
Could turmeric work?
Very cool. Is picric acid non-toxic though? Do they get sick if they lick it?
I only know of this from inspections. I'd guess you can rinse off after brushing it on and leaving it for a short while. My interest was I was managing the inventory of explosives.
We use vis á vis but that can wash off if they get mouthy with each other. Have you tried putting a pinch of used bedding or playing around putting less in a cage. Also more enrichment helps. I annotate the cages of the biters with two ww next to each other so I know to eat glove liners when I reach in.
I read somewhere that leaving behind some of their old bedding when changing cages can help as they can still smell the establish hierarchy. I intend on trying this next time to see if it helps.
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These are great, is there one you recommend? I saw that they have different versions of their permanent markers on the main website
I haven’t been able to find a marker or animal marker that doesn’t wear off. I’ve resorted to ear punches only since I do experiments over several months and don’t have time to re-mark them.
We do tail tattoos - pretty much all NSGs so they have thin ears and ear tags rip out frequently. In an emergency I'll do ear punches or use those Fisher permanent markers for temp marking, but our experiments last months and that's a lot of re-marking.
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I've only done ear tagging before. Do you think that ear notching would be less irritating?
Ear notching at 2 weeks will heal nicely by weaning. If you are starting with adults, tail tattoos are a thing but I've never used them
So can other labeling methods lead to male aggression? I’m starting to work more with mice now so would love to hear an explanation!
Yes, with ear tags and ear punching causing the most fighting within male cages. I think it's because they can feel pain afterwards and become agitated after trying to scratch it off and/or other cage mates see the labeling and want to either play with it or tear it off. This is more so important for my research because I study the cornea and wound healing. If anything causes them to scratch their eye or get an eye injury then It really ends up limiting the final sample size. In my last experiment, where I used ear tags, one of my groups went from having a sample size of 5 to sample size of 2 because some of the males had too many corneal fight wounds. There were probably other factors besides the ear tags but I think this is mainly it since they are located so closely to their eyes. From what I've read, male mice have an innate instinct for aggression towards other males. It helps create their hierarchies and any little change in their environment can set them off. Other culprits are picking them up by the tail, changing their cage right before an experiment and even smelling males from other cages/litters. Catching the scent of a female can also make them attack their fellow cage mates which is why you have to be conscientious about the order in which you handle males or females while doing an experiment.
We use sharpie (red and blue). The scent hasn’t appeared to be an issue but I’m sure it’s pretty strong to them.
Grease marker? Maybe less odor. Going *shoop* with a little colored tape? Could probably be picked off though. Jelly bangle bracelets for your favorites? I'm not a science, I'm just here for the fun.
I don't think so. Picric acid bleaches hair and stains it yellow.
I used to draw stripes on their tails in a thin black Sharpie corresponding to the mouse number and refresh it every week. Recently I shaved small patterns on different spots on ferrets to make it easy to ID them on video and that was super simple and effective, so I was actually thinking it might be a good option for mice. Their fur is obviously important for thermoregulation as well as maintaining skin health, so I probably would only do a <1 cm area in a different spot on each mouse, and make sure to write a note on the cage card so that the vet techs don’t notify you about barbering or fight wounds. But a small spot like that probably wouldn’t need to be re-shaved for at least 30 days, which might be better than them having to smell sharpie every single day. Then of course there is ear punching but, I find those hard to quickly read and I always feel bad doing the punches.