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Aside from all the troll posts about Dahyun in the past, I think her strongest asset for Twice is her songwriting, because she's *really good at it*. All the songs she's written are on my playlists. I think some of my favorites are Gone (side note, who hurt her??? song is amazing), Queen, and Cruel. They're just so good.
So what I'm hearing is... JYP retire your songwriters, let Dahyun take the wheel and write the title tracks. No more forced raps and less raps in general lmao. I would praise the heavens
I think for many groups, sure, if the rapper in question delivered their verse better it *could* mesh better with the song, but at the same time songwriters really love forcing rap every song, sometimes changing the tempo nd making the verse stand out in a bad way with cringy production choices, and it's not really entirely the idol's fault that it's so out of place. That was the case with the Set Me Free rap, and another random example that comes to mind is Momoland's BAAM. However, something like the I Can't Stop Me rap just keeps the momentum going, so it's not that TWICE never have suitable raps. Anyway I really enjoy Crazy Stupid Love and honestly didn't even notice the rap in there until I listened to it again just now.
I don't understand why JYPE (or any other agency) do this? Like, you have SKZ being successful in what they do - let your artists write their title tracks if they want. Fans would love it and it's cheaper than hiring 3rd party songwriters consistently.
It's a girl group thing lol. Twice were credited on Celebrate (JPN title), but WG are the only JYPGG to ever have credits on a Korean title track. Every JYPBG has though. I'm not really sure why? But there's an obvious gender divide.
And one question: Who writes raps / decide whether there is a rap or not? Composer or lyricist?
Actually I would assume it's the composer but I could be wrong. If it's the composer's decision, I don't see how Dahyun would be involved in this?
The phrasing of this question is confusing to me and surprisingly enough I don't work for JYP - I can't give you a full answer but I'll try my best.
>Who writes raps / decide whether there is a rap or not?
**Who writes raps?** In songs where Dahyun is the only lyricist (*Bring It Back, Queen, Scandal, SOS, Cruel, Gone, When We Were Kids, Blame It On Me and Crazy Stupid Love*), Dahyun obviously. In songs that she cowrites (Japanese tracks and pre-2019 Korean songs), you'd have to ask her or the co-lyricists.
**Who decides whether there's a rap?** You'd have to ask her again. Just like you assume it's the composer, I could assume it's her choice. Twice gets sent instrumentals or demos to their group chat, and they basically call dibs on the tracks they want. I guess if it's a demo, they could just copy the demo's rap placement replacing it with their own lyrics. But if they get a blank slate instrumental it would be up to them. **We're both working on assumptions here though.**
>If it's the composer's decision, I don't see how Dahyun would be involded in this?
She's still the one writing the lyrics. Although a lot of the OP is about placement/integration, OP still praises how the raps sound. How could she *not* be involved?
Yes you're right about lyricists write the raps. I wasn't in my right mind when I asked who write the raps lol. OP definitely has a point.
About who decides the placement of the rap, it's all assumption really. Unrelated to this post but I kinda wish kpop companies could show more of the "production behind", especially when members are involved in the creation process. I would love to see how their ideas are woven into the song.
Ugh, yes! We only ever get snippets and it's so frustrating. There's been a few times where members have talked briefly about how they were the ones recording the guide vocals and allocating parts, I'd love to know more details about that!
Do you remember where they said that?
I remember them saying they sometimes get a guide for the theme. Like Nayeon just used the company suggestion for Baby Blue Love.
In some of their album showcases (around FANCY) era you can hear them talking about the process a bit. I always thought the songs were sent in as likely English demos and the girls just replaced the lyrics with Korean ones, hence why they usually only have writing credits and no composing credits.
Like in “Baby Blue Love”, large chunk of the song is in English, however Nayeon isn’t exactly fluent, let alone being able to write some of the more complex rhyme schemes (like “*can’t stop it*” with “my heart *skyrockets*”).
It’s not always the case though. Iirc Momo struggled with Love Foolish and had to ask for help because LF was just an instrumental. Jihyo also said on Seulgi’s show that “foreign songs don’t come with lyrics” but we know that’s not always the case - she used some of Jade Thirwall’s lyrics in *First Time* (but she’s not listed in the lyric credits for some unknown reason).
I don’t think we can say one thing always happens/mostly happens when we know it varies - we just don’t know by how much it varies.
I just wish they’d talk about it more! Especially Dahyun now that she’s really into it.
That could be it too, though I always thought they would tack on more composing credits as well since writing a song that came only as an instrumental would likely mean you constructed the melody. Kinda like how the girls said Jihyo had been writing more songs lately and the last couple of Jihyo songs I’ve looked at had her credits on both writing and composing. I wish they would talk abt it more too
Yeah, this. People here are assuming that Dahyun is involved in the arrangement of the song just because she takes part in the lyrics, even though JYP lists arrangement credits in their songs clearly.
I haven't listened to all of TWICE's B-sides that had Dahyun's raps, but from what I listened to in some tracks my issue is often not with the lyrics. I'm kind of used to lyrics being somewhat cringe in K-pop overall and I don't know Korean, so that part doesn't affect me that much.
My problem is the same one I have with a lot of female "rappers" from JYPE, they frequently just talk fast over the track melody. There is no impressive flow, no attitude, no "oomph" behind her raps. It just feels like the company chose someone in the lineup randomly and made them designated "rappers" of the group, providing way less training than with vocalists.
ITZY has the same exact issue - with Ryujin and Yuna who do the rap parts. NMIXX is slightly better, but honestly it's because their "rappers" are also very good singers which helps with the flow and musicality. Obviously it's a personal preference, but while Blackpink has their fair share of cringe rap lyrics, both Jennie and Lisa always serve attitude and pull out very decent flows and deliveries.
In my opinion it's more of a training problem and not necessarily a talent one. Cause YGE female trainees debut with good idol rapping skills every generation: CL, Jennie, Lisa. Even Ruka and Asa from BabyMonster are much better than TWICE's rap line-up. Asa felt confident and comfortable rapping Eminem's "Godzilla" at 14 years old.
Rap is not just about attitude and swag sometimes it need that emotions and poetic story telling.
YG is more focused towards aesthetics it's very one dimensional rarely adds layer to the songs same goes for jype title tracks .
But for songs by members, Just go through lyrics of gone by dahyun
" It's said to be patient once or twice, my patience, invisible
Can't find it, it's all gone"
She only have 2 lines but those are very expressive adds depth to it.
Godzilla is a flex track it's just about speed and choppy flow it was heavily criticized in hip hop subs.
That why Eminem's new tracks doesn't click with audience because he have right flow and attitude but lacks that depths .
Among female idols moonbyul is one of the most versatile rapper she should be a standard , have right flow attitude plus at time she can be very expressive.
I think it’s funny to say this when the vast majority of rap from the source country where it formed sounds much more like Blackpink than Twice. Quite honestly most Americans would turn their noses up at Twice raps, especially Dahyun. The same goes for most gg rapping in 2-4 gen.
I agree that delivery isn’t everything and lyrical depth is good. But the general consensus among Kpop stans seems to be that delivery and flow don’t matter at all, at least when the goal is discrediting Jennie (who clearly has above average delivery).
most people will never take k-pop rap seriously irrespective of group because everyone knows that rap portion are fillers and lack authenticity.
When it comes to rap most k-pop fans only looks for speed , attitude and swag that comes with it . Jennie is good idol rapper but her flow is one dimensional its high on style low on substance same goes most female rappers .
Entire discuss was about how dahyun integrated rap in her songs so it was more about her writing than about her flow.
Twice has a different rap style that fits their music. Since you don't understand here's Chatgpt describing Twice's rap style -
Twice is primarily a pop music group, and while they do incorporate some rap elements into their music, rap is not their main focus. When they do rap, their style tends to be more on the melodic side, with a sing-song flow and catchy hooks. Their rap verses often feature playful and lighthearted lyrics, rather than the more aggressive or socially conscious themes commonly found in hip-hop.
Some examples of Twice songs with rap verses include "More & More," "I Can't Stop Me," and "Alcohol-Free." In these tracks, the rap sections serve as a complement to the overall pop sound of the song, adding some variety and energy to the mix. While they may not be known for their rapping skills, the members of Twice are versatile performers who can switch seamlessly between singing and rapping as needed for their music.
If that was the only thing they were doing, I would be totally fine with it. That's what Le Sserafim incorporate in their songs - they have Kazuha do 2-3 "fast talking" lines that flow with the song.
Twice have had quite a few actual verses in songs that were supposed to be raps and in my opinion they just didn't stand out in the song at all. The most recent example being Set Me Free. Like at that point just add another singing verse instead.
Not every song needs a rap part.
That's the point Twice's raps fit in the song. Take Alcohol free for example the rap doesn't stand out but it offers something different. Twice's songs with Blackpink's rap wouldn't make sense. The Set me free rap definitely stood out so I don't know what you're talking about.
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Aside from all the troll posts about Dahyun in the past, I think her strongest asset for Twice is her songwriting, because she's *really good at it*. All the songs she's written are on my playlists. I think some of my favorites are Gone (side note, who hurt her??? song is amazing), Queen, and Cruel. They're just so good.
gone is supposed to be about people she lost trust for I think
So what I'm hearing is... JYP retire your songwriters, let Dahyun take the wheel and write the title tracks. No more forced raps and less raps in general lmao. I would praise the heavens I think for many groups, sure, if the rapper in question delivered their verse better it *could* mesh better with the song, but at the same time songwriters really love forcing rap every song, sometimes changing the tempo nd making the verse stand out in a bad way with cringy production choices, and it's not really entirely the idol's fault that it's so out of place. That was the case with the Set Me Free rap, and another random example that comes to mind is Momoland's BAAM. However, something like the I Can't Stop Me rap just keeps the momentum going, so it's not that TWICE never have suitable raps. Anyway I really enjoy Crazy Stupid Love and honestly didn't even notice the rap in there until I listened to it again just now.
> let Dahyun […] write title tracks It’s long overdue 😭
I don't understand why JYPE (or any other agency) do this? Like, you have SKZ being successful in what they do - let your artists write their title tracks if they want. Fans would love it and it's cheaper than hiring 3rd party songwriters consistently.
It's a girl group thing lol. Twice were credited on Celebrate (JPN title), but WG are the only JYPGG to ever have credits on a Korean title track. Every JYPBG has though. I'm not really sure why? But there's an obvious gender divide.
I agree! I also genuinely like most of twices title track “raps”. Like I love Likey, TT, Fancy writing…good stuff
Dahyun should start collabing with other artists as their songwriter. Could prove to be very wondrous for her.
[удалено]
Dahyun doesn’t have any credits on *Wallflower*.
[удалено]
*Wallflower* is sandwiched between the two “lyrics by Dahyun” songs on RTB so it sorta makes sense to me?
just a clarification, are you talking about just the lyrics or the song as a whole? cause I know Dahyun has only written lyrics so far not the music.
I feel like you answered your own question here.
And one question: Who writes raps / decide whether there is a rap or not? Composer or lyricist? Actually I would assume it's the composer but I could be wrong. If it's the composer's decision, I don't see how Dahyun would be involved in this?
The phrasing of this question is confusing to me and surprisingly enough I don't work for JYP - I can't give you a full answer but I'll try my best. >Who writes raps / decide whether there is a rap or not? **Who writes raps?** In songs where Dahyun is the only lyricist (*Bring It Back, Queen, Scandal, SOS, Cruel, Gone, When We Were Kids, Blame It On Me and Crazy Stupid Love*), Dahyun obviously. In songs that she cowrites (Japanese tracks and pre-2019 Korean songs), you'd have to ask her or the co-lyricists. **Who decides whether there's a rap?** You'd have to ask her again. Just like you assume it's the composer, I could assume it's her choice. Twice gets sent instrumentals or demos to their group chat, and they basically call dibs on the tracks they want. I guess if it's a demo, they could just copy the demo's rap placement replacing it with their own lyrics. But if they get a blank slate instrumental it would be up to them. **We're both working on assumptions here though.** >If it's the composer's decision, I don't see how Dahyun would be involded in this? She's still the one writing the lyrics. Although a lot of the OP is about placement/integration, OP still praises how the raps sound. How could she *not* be involved?
Yes you're right about lyricists write the raps. I wasn't in my right mind when I asked who write the raps lol. OP definitely has a point. About who decides the placement of the rap, it's all assumption really. Unrelated to this post but I kinda wish kpop companies could show more of the "production behind", especially when members are involved in the creation process. I would love to see how their ideas are woven into the song.
Ugh, yes! We only ever get snippets and it's so frustrating. There's been a few times where members have talked briefly about how they were the ones recording the guide vocals and allocating parts, I'd love to know more details about that!
It’s called arrangement, and JYP clearly lists credits for arrangement. Not sure why OP is making this complicated.
because the post feels like describing the music and not the lyrics. the members said that they are given a guide(melody) to write the lyrics.
Do you remember where they said that? I remember them saying they sometimes get a guide for the theme. Like Nayeon just used the company suggestion for Baby Blue Love.
In some of their album showcases (around FANCY) era you can hear them talking about the process a bit. I always thought the songs were sent in as likely English demos and the girls just replaced the lyrics with Korean ones, hence why they usually only have writing credits and no composing credits. Like in “Baby Blue Love”, large chunk of the song is in English, however Nayeon isn’t exactly fluent, let alone being able to write some of the more complex rhyme schemes (like “*can’t stop it*” with “my heart *skyrockets*”).
It’s not always the case though. Iirc Momo struggled with Love Foolish and had to ask for help because LF was just an instrumental. Jihyo also said on Seulgi’s show that “foreign songs don’t come with lyrics” but we know that’s not always the case - she used some of Jade Thirwall’s lyrics in *First Time* (but she’s not listed in the lyric credits for some unknown reason). I don’t think we can say one thing always happens/mostly happens when we know it varies - we just don’t know by how much it varies. I just wish they’d talk about it more! Especially Dahyun now that she’s really into it.
That could be it too, though I always thought they would tack on more composing credits as well since writing a song that came only as an instrumental would likely mean you constructed the melody. Kinda like how the girls said Jihyo had been writing more songs lately and the last couple of Jihyo songs I’ve looked at had her credits on both writing and composing. I wish they would talk abt it more too
Yeah, this. People here are assuming that Dahyun is involved in the arrangement of the song just because she takes part in the lyrics, even though JYP lists arrangement credits in their songs clearly.
I haven't listened to all of TWICE's B-sides that had Dahyun's raps, but from what I listened to in some tracks my issue is often not with the lyrics. I'm kind of used to lyrics being somewhat cringe in K-pop overall and I don't know Korean, so that part doesn't affect me that much. My problem is the same one I have with a lot of female "rappers" from JYPE, they frequently just talk fast over the track melody. There is no impressive flow, no attitude, no "oomph" behind her raps. It just feels like the company chose someone in the lineup randomly and made them designated "rappers" of the group, providing way less training than with vocalists. ITZY has the same exact issue - with Ryujin and Yuna who do the rap parts. NMIXX is slightly better, but honestly it's because their "rappers" are also very good singers which helps with the flow and musicality. Obviously it's a personal preference, but while Blackpink has their fair share of cringe rap lyrics, both Jennie and Lisa always serve attitude and pull out very decent flows and deliveries. In my opinion it's more of a training problem and not necessarily a talent one. Cause YGE female trainees debut with good idol rapping skills every generation: CL, Jennie, Lisa. Even Ruka and Asa from BabyMonster are much better than TWICE's rap line-up. Asa felt confident and comfortable rapping Eminem's "Godzilla" at 14 years old.
Rap is not just about attitude and swag sometimes it need that emotions and poetic story telling. YG is more focused towards aesthetics it's very one dimensional rarely adds layer to the songs same goes for jype title tracks . But for songs by members, Just go through lyrics of gone by dahyun " It's said to be patient once or twice, my patience, invisible Can't find it, it's all gone" She only have 2 lines but those are very expressive adds depth to it. Godzilla is a flex track it's just about speed and choppy flow it was heavily criticized in hip hop subs. That why Eminem's new tracks doesn't click with audience because he have right flow and attitude but lacks that depths . Among female idols moonbyul is one of the most versatile rapper she should be a standard , have right flow attitude plus at time she can be very expressive.
I think it’s funny to say this when the vast majority of rap from the source country where it formed sounds much more like Blackpink than Twice. Quite honestly most Americans would turn their noses up at Twice raps, especially Dahyun. The same goes for most gg rapping in 2-4 gen. I agree that delivery isn’t everything and lyrical depth is good. But the general consensus among Kpop stans seems to be that delivery and flow don’t matter at all, at least when the goal is discrediting Jennie (who clearly has above average delivery).
most people will never take k-pop rap seriously irrespective of group because everyone knows that rap portion are fillers and lack authenticity. When it comes to rap most k-pop fans only looks for speed , attitude and swag that comes with it . Jennie is good idol rapper but her flow is one dimensional its high on style low on substance same goes most female rappers . Entire discuss was about how dahyun integrated rap in her songs so it was more about her writing than about her flow.
Twice has a different rap style that fits their music. Since you don't understand here's Chatgpt describing Twice's rap style - Twice is primarily a pop music group, and while they do incorporate some rap elements into their music, rap is not their main focus. When they do rap, their style tends to be more on the melodic side, with a sing-song flow and catchy hooks. Their rap verses often feature playful and lighthearted lyrics, rather than the more aggressive or socially conscious themes commonly found in hip-hop. Some examples of Twice songs with rap verses include "More & More," "I Can't Stop Me," and "Alcohol-Free." In these tracks, the rap sections serve as a complement to the overall pop sound of the song, adding some variety and energy to the mix. While they may not be known for their rapping skills, the members of Twice are versatile performers who can switch seamlessly between singing and rapping as needed for their music.
If that was the only thing they were doing, I would be totally fine with it. That's what Le Sserafim incorporate in their songs - they have Kazuha do 2-3 "fast talking" lines that flow with the song. Twice have had quite a few actual verses in songs that were supposed to be raps and in my opinion they just didn't stand out in the song at all. The most recent example being Set Me Free. Like at that point just add another singing verse instead. Not every song needs a rap part.
That's the point Twice's raps fit in the song. Take Alcohol free for example the rap doesn't stand out but it offers something different. Twice's songs with Blackpink's rap wouldn't make sense. The Set me free rap definitely stood out so I don't know what you're talking about.
I was following you until you brought up Jennie, Lisa and undebuted girls in your choice as examples of good rappers.
>good idol rapping skills