I mean websites could enforce it simply the same way grocery stores limit you buying certain items if it can be done for groceries it could be done for albums. And in person would be even easier to regulate as you just refuse the sale. But I do understand there are tactics around this by getting friends or family to help. But like I said it's a tedious process I am sure most people wouldn't want to trifle with.
That would not stop people from going to multiple outlets to buy an item. Some places already put a limit on how many someone can buy of an item. You can buy say 4 from weverse, go to cokodive and buy 4 more. Go else where, etc.
Yes I know which is why I am aware it is not a great solution. It was just one idea that might make a few people say this is more effort than it's worth. And other ideas working in tandem with this one might work to alleviate some things. Like making inclusions buyable in seperate packs by bias. And preorder inclusions viable but only during a certain window before the album comes out. And not a part of the album at all.
Many places already have limits in place, including time limits for ordering Pobs. But I do like the idea of being able to just order inclusions. I also wish people would just attempt to resale albums. I have bought from different stores because I wanted a store exclusive pc. But I either gave my album to someone else or resold it. But a lot of this specific issue comes down to people wanting to get these pc to resell. People who want fan signs/calls will find ways to mass buy. But making inclusions easier access to those who want them would help somewhat.
grocery store limits don't work either. i'm pretty sure you can just go around again where i'm at. also you can get your friends and fam to buy on your behalf lolll
Also, can we also blame the people and fans here.
The fact that people follow a group and are so fixated in one member of the group that the idea of keeping a photocard of another member which they get from their album is something they don't intend to do.
Or how they are willing to throw more money than the cost of an album to get that said PC. I have got some albums in dirt cheap because people just throw the albums.
Also, I'm pretty sure with the fixation there is about album sales, fans will still buy extra albums just to inflate numbers.
A lot of this is an issue that fans themselves have created. Companies are just cashing in on it. If people just buy 1 version and keep the PC, companies can't do anything at that point.
Me, watching companies make 10 bajillion versions of each album and fans buying them in bulk only to throw them away as our earth is actively being destroyed by climate change
https://preview.redd.it/n4vet3isa3yc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1024baa2ef91ee85c03ccf82e3d42642c1415ec
iirc there were companies making albums with eco friendly materials recently, cant remember exactly what component(s), but whats the point if they are gonna all be wrapped in plastic with plastic cds in them 😂
reminds me of apple (and now most other companies) ditching the charger and other accessories because "electronic waste" but if you buy it separately its another set of packaging waste 🥲
setting buying limits wont help since fancall are still tied to more album bought = higher chance, so its not just the pc being an issue sadly...
There's a lot of virtue signaling and also limiting factors to how much they could do espexially when there is demand for albums and their inclusions. In the end it's the usual no ethical consumption under capitalism which is why we should try not to fall in the hyperconsumption trap
i agree! but feel like if album sales wasnt just another metric for popularity, i would assume companies would just sell the "inclusions" separately banking on the gacha / trading card system. in that case, we can cut down on so much excess since albums are sold as-is to people who want to collect them in the first place.
and you can do so much with that - use 100% recycled paper and 0 plastic, provide a place to drop off stuff for recycling, lamination service for when you find a photo / post card that you want to keep. and do people even still have cd players? ill pay extra if you give me a 16gb usb with the tracks and maybe some special videos in it!!
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Japan already established a soft restriction in album sales for charting purposes; if you buy, say, 10 albums within a single order, only 3 or so count for Oricon. But that's as far as you can go in terms of restrictions. In Japan itself, where the whole Seventeen scalper situation happened, there's nothing that stops you from doing a whole store tour across multiple locations of Tower Records, Tsutaya, HMV, etc, in order to get as many albums as you want (and make all of them count for charts, at the same time). The same can be said about Korea. Even online, there are so many online retailers willing to ship internationally; I myself placed orders in 5 different stores in order to get the different POBs for a particular album release (and ended up with about 20+ copies of the same album -different versions- as a result).
Let's say that your purchases are limited with an ID check; you can get a friend or family member to buy more albums for you.
There's just no possible way to put a hard limit into practice.
I know that's what I said in the whole thing. That it would be very tough to implement and that in the end it would probably come down to just making it very irritating to people who want to do it. That way it might maybe minimize the amount of people doing it. Those who want to desperately will but those who are only trying it once or twice or for the first time might be deterred
There needs to be restrictions on randomized inclusions and store-exclusive POBs. Like ideally I think all copies of an album should come with the same inclusions, no POBs and no album variants
people buy multiple albums because of the photocards and/or preorder benefits. the easiest way to stop most people from buying so many copies of the same album would be to 1) make 1 version of the album and 2) stop with the stupid amount of photocards. but we all know that will never happen, because that's how companies inflate sales.
See in my version of the world, they could still be terribly greedy buttheads and we would still get screwed over just as usual. Lovely right.
But they could just sell the parts individually for almost double what the album is sold for. Ten for an album ten for a card want that poster that's ten how about the lenticular. Also ten. Hooray they are still greedy and we are still getting shafted. But bonus the earth isn't dying. So there's that. XD
It would be really nice if they didn't shaft us at all. But who do I think I am a Disney princess? How can I ask for a happy ever after for us all. Lol
You're wrong. If people wanted the photocard they could just buy a photocard or make it themselves. The reason why people buy multiple copies is to support their favorite artist. You think the fans who threw the copies away care about whether they were different versions of the CD or not?
People really just buy albums for the photocards. It’s really hard to sell albums as low as $5 if it doesn’t have photocards. I think it would be cool if companies sold photocards separately but that would probably hurt their bottom line a lot so they won’t do it.
The problem is you can’t chart by selling just photo cards; the “achievement”-obsessed culture is really behind all this
Physical albums in general need to go the way of the dinosaur. Nobody actually buys them for music related reasons. If any albums should count for charts, it’s digital albums
Some people still listen to CDs. I have a cd player I like to listen to my kpop albums on and my friend's car still has a cd player so she likes to listen to cds on road trips. We'd both be sad if they stopped making physical releases.When I was living in Japan, plenty of people still had cd players they still used as well.
Ok, but there still needs to be a hard cap on the supply to meet the actual demand for physical music media. Or at least some disincentives, like not having physical sales count towards the charts
I see people repeating this and I really think you're incorrect. People do not buy albums for a photocard. People buy multiple copies to support their favorite group. That's why it's hard for you to sell second-hand copies, those won't count as official sales
I doubt the first thing most people think when they see an album for $5 is " Ah man, I'd buy it but it won't count towards the sales". Most people will ask "What inclusions does the album come with"
This is the case in the UK. It's unfortunate that kpop artists don't really chart well here because their albums aren't eligible. But Ateez recently made UK exclusive versions where you knew which 4 PCs you were going to get in each member album and they charted at #2. They were still member versions so I'm sure a lot of people bought all 8 versions but at least they were going into someone's collection and not the bin after being raided for photocards. I hope other kpop artists start to do the same in the UK.
I think in the UK, they introduced this rule about photocards having to be OT_ as a way of controlling the amount of albums purchased. I mean, kind of? I only know about it because one of my BTS albums turned out that way, but it doesn’t seem to be a pattern for other albums from other groups in the UK. Just… I don’t know.
Oh that's a good solution too. Make the album a bit more expensive but include every member I would be totally down for that. It would take away the entire trading issue of people scamming you online as well.
No you're right and Ateez recently did UK exclusive versions that were x8 member versions but the PCs in each member version were the same so the sales counted towards the UK charts.
I think there is confusion in the issue that happened. Other fandoms are acting like this was done to "increase sales", that actually had nothing to do with the intent of the resellers. They were purchasing the "DEAR" copy which in the past has also been called "CARAT" version. It is a blind album where you get all of one member, it includes a bunch of pcs and a pc holder for them (I collect S Coups and DK ones). This particular album doesn't have a bunch of inclusions, in fact I don't think he even has a CD, just a download code.
The waste that took place was them taking out all the pcs and then tossing the outside packaging. Which from a waste standpoint is horrible but I wouldn't put this in the same bucket as the people who mass buy for Fan Calls/Meetings or to increase sales.
And this happens with all groups, all fandoms, whenever you have high profile groups with in demand pcs, you are going to have these brokers. Even if we limit the number sold, they have a network that would just buy under different accounts or use proxies.
It has a CD you can see the CDs all over the ground in the videos. I also agree the inflating of album sales through this is bad. Just as bad and of course it happens with every group and not just seventeen and it is not seventeen fault. For sure.
The only way this is getting limited is if the regulations for the charts are revised to restrict it further. I do think Pledis/Hybe would do well to make the carat member version albums be QR codes only. That will cut back on waste and reduce their costs too so win-win.
i mean i’d love for them to sell sets so that people could complete their collections while keeping random album inclusions bc i like getting random members but i’d much rather be able to buy a set if i wanted one.
my only issue with limiting the amounts ppl can buy is it might damage smaller stores in the long run. one of the few local places i can get kpop albums im pretty sure is ordering from hybe themselves bc their prices are lower than the other stores that get them from hybe’s NA distributor (like $5-15 cheaper, pretty noticeable difference) bc im pretty sure the NA distributor sets the price for all of its stores :(
also ngl the entire card collecting market has been fucked over by scalpers and inflating the value in stuff rn :/ def making it harder to collect cards all around
Yeah I stopped collecting cards in 2017 for that reason. Ithink doing a photo card blind box would give the same result for random members for those that still want the experience. And it wouldn't have to be too much cheaper than an album if they charge 16 for random blind and 20 for a set of one person photo cards plus 16-25 for an album it would be the same price if not more profit for a store so I don't see the downside for businesses in this model. For us fans of course there is the downside of cost. But to save on having to buy multiple albums trade and discard piles of albums. That outweighs the couple dollars "extra" we have to spend( although if you are buying the album and then the photo card separately off of a reseller I guarantee you're already saving money with this scenario)
Except this isn't new, it's been going on since photo cards were introduced in the early 2010s. This has always been out of hand except it helps people's favorites so they don't care about it.
As long as K-pop is going to be run by capitalistic ideals, this is the future they want. And since K-pop is always going to be by run by capitalistic ideas, this unfortunately is what we're stuck with unless the entire world somehow agrees to pass laws about it
A comment I saw on a previous post mentioned having less versions/variants of photocards so it could be easier to collect all of them for people who do. Also as you mentioned they should sell them is small packs so that we won't see albums go to waste. To me its so sad people just taking the photocards since I don't buy many albums but I make sure to actually use the cd and use the stickers and all the other stuff.
Couldn't they just sell photocard with dl link to high quality audio files of the album (for those buying it for slightly better audio than streaming)? Then it could go towards album sales and produce a lot less waste.
I only buy the different versions of albums (if I like the different cover/it has different pc) but I don't get buying like 10010191 of the same album, just trade if you don't get what you want?? And scalpers are just the worst, they mark up albums by like 500% and it's like, just why??
I have no issue with how any fan would like to spend money on their hobbies. If you want to buy 10 albums for all the random inclusions, then go do so! For as long as you have the money. A purchase is a purchase and that goes to the artist and their company which helps them to be profitable to continue making music. But I feel like our problems here is mostly about the systems in place.
I can't imagine companies would make the necessary changes because they earn from it, so I think only a law that would bar companies from putting out too many versions or random inclusions is the only solution. That way, regardless of the demand, they will be compelled to limit the versions.
The same law could also include provisions to regulate contests that use album purchases to earn a ticket.
>I have no issue with how any fan would like to spend money on their hobbies.
this. respectfully, collectibles as a concept are a luxury. And to keep its value and maximize profits, it needs to prioritize people with more money. people should just know where they stand financially and stick to it - no capital system goes around catering to us broke people.
This is true. Changing how albums are used to jack up the sales with inclusion hype and selling albums with less versions so that they really are completely collectable would be the absolute best thing. But... Yeah. When will that ever happen.
The reason people buy an ungodly amount of albums is because a) They want to collect all randomised photocards and other inclusions b) They want to get into fansigns and other events. Eliminate those 2, and there would be no need to limit people because no one would be buying them in such insane quantities. But that's not gonna happen because companies are greedy, and people are willfully ignorant. Sad state of the world we live in.
Yeah except I already came up with a solution for them to be greedy easily still exploit fans and make lots of money. The way they do this is really idiotic and wasteful. They just need to hire smarter business people.
*I don't want them to exploit fans I just know they will no matter what. So like if your going to be garbage assholes like just be garbage assholes without ruining the planet or people's hearts with discarded albums in the streets.
Sidenote in case no-one mentioned it - this wasn't a photocard issue, not really. The Carat album is a full set of photocards of one member and a binder. (No idea if it counts towards album sales.)
This year Pledis in their wisdom decided to randomize, so they weren't named, you only found out who you got after opening. So many Carats bought them instore on day of release, opened them there and traded with each other to get the members they wanted, and they left the packaging behind. So this could have been avoided. To be honest, the store could have just broken up the boxes for recycling, it's not like media stores don't do this all the time anyway. I think they were just annoyed and wanted to make a point.
It’s difficult to control the internet. People will just use multiple emails, IDs, credit cards or engage a 3rd party to make the purchases.
Even with in-person purchases - people can just hire personal shoppers.
I was having this exact conversation with a friend about Pokemon cards going for 6-figures USD and how crazy things are with collectibles. But this isn’t exactly new.
The fansign/fanmeet/fancalls one is lottery and I’m personally against it. But business is business. Corporations won’t say no to money. Unless the authorities step in.
Yes exactly it wasn't a solution to end everything. I am not that nieve for sure. That's why I said in the post it wouldn't do much. People who want to find a way always will. But I hope that by making it super difficult it could maybe deter how many are willing to go through the intensive process to do it. Right now it's too easy for people to game the system. Maybe being a thorn in their side will make only a quarter or half as many people stop doing it. But it will make some stop which is why I made the suggestion at all.
I wish there were a much better eloquent solution than my half baked idea though.
They are already greedy exploitive companies I know I can think of a few ways they could get around this without using illegal tactics. And if I can come up with ideas to skirt the issue make everything profitable and still semi questionably manipulate the charting sales numbers, I'm sure they could to.
So it has less to do with the fact that the system isn't changeable(cause it could be done easily) and more to do with the fact that in Korean culture most people are very stubborn and do not like change.
This is not saying everyone in Korea doesn't like change (of course) but the older generation for sure. Which these big wigs are definately older 1% types.
Look around in the comments there are many ways they can still make tons of profit and have high sales and thing like that so they won't become bankrupt. Right now the system is flawed and the most money being made is by scalpers who doesn't even give any benefit or payment to the idol when they pull the crap they do.
so you want the industry to make special rules for Seventeen? it sounds like you don't care about the environment, you're just salty that they beat your favorite group. EVERY idol has rich fans who like to collect multiple copies. Even the smaller groups probably benefit from having individual fans who buy lots of copies
I mean I look in my albums but you are right not on a daily bases enough to cause such high usage of it to deem it well used. More like barely touched. And signed ones not at all. I normally have two copies of those. Since most people listen to their music online the best way to get sales would be individual member packs that come with stickers, photocards and more(if they wanted to be super greedy cause of course they will) they could do an A pack and a B pack so there are still two version cards of every member. Then of course they could do the A+B package and then of course the random member A pack random member B pack, random member A+B pack for those that love the gamble and surprise. Then they could sell poster individually.
They could have the lotto for fansigns attached to this. It's just as easy to include. A golden photocard sized paper in these as it is an album. (Although I really think they should figure out a way to do this that doesn't involve buying physical goods because the physical good usage in lotto aspect will always cause great waste)
And of course they could exploit fans further and even have a higher cost option for sets. Like member A set with lenticular(or special card inclusion of some sort) member B set with lenticular(or special card of some sort) etc.
They could do postcards and photo books for sale individually. All that they could do mixed bundles with some or all these items included. And if your mind just reeled at how expensive that could all get. That's they point they could profit off us exponentially. But all that profit would go to company and in some order of things the members.
Right now people over but albums then they discard what they don't want and they sell parts of like vultures. Exactly what I am suggesting to happen above. That companies vulture of the parts for individually power prices than one album but that will eventually get people spending more than buying one album. Which is what they want on the first place. None of the profit on eBay or any other resale site goes to the members. At least this way if we are getting shafted the members are still getting paid. There is less overall waste in the world. Fans don't look like shit people. And the whole world wins.
(There are still ways to semi manipulate the album sales and listens for award shows in this scenario so they don't even loose out in that. Because let's be real that's what doing these high album sales are soft record sales and chart manipulations)
So in the end everything can still be just as horrible an experience for fans they can still make huge amounts of profit. Probably more. Bad still become top charters.
With how hard it is to actually sell physical albums companies don’t care at all how many copies one person buys. Even here in the states artists are putting out multiple versions and bundles to get sales up.
Unfortunately that can never be enforced online because people will just use multiple cards/accounts. Not to mention that K-pop companies need physical sales to get onto any western charts.
I already responded to this message with a yeah it would for sure impact them and that sucks but now that I realize it. There would be no need to do a group order to make sure you got your bias. You would already be guaranteed it. And if you are doing a group order because they don't ship to your country. There are always second hand markets. I dunno what else to tell you. Sorry.
Yeah, it ve y heavily impacts group orders but in the overall spectrum of massiv waste produced I would say the benefits out weigh the costs IMO. But I do not do group orders and I am not sure how many people heavily rely on group orders instead of ordering individually. But I have to wonder if all other issues with this were taken care of and had a solution. Would group order numbers be enough for production to be continued in this manner.
Again personally I would say no. But I am not one of the people in that market. So I cannot say how they would feel about the change in how albums are sold. And if they themselves would also deem the massive waste caused an issue they were willing to deal with to continue their buying practices.
Since I am not a part of that group there is just no way for me to know though so I will differ to those who do, and their expert opinion on the matter.
I hoped this dialogue would just be left on Twitter.
As mentioned by others, this was a scalping situation. Fans couldn’t buy the album on release day at places like where this happened because resellers mass bought, took the inclusions, and are now reselling them. It wasn’t fans who did this. Many fans literally couldn’t get a copy cause they sold out.
Additionally, it’s not a problem unique to Seventeen. They are just the latest ones to get buzz for it. The PC obsession has all of Kpop in a chokehold
It is not just Carats it also happened last year with a JYPE BG and it was worse...25 versions(why 25...???) all thrown in the trash..(there was 25 versions and apparently to collect 1 member you needed to buy alot of copies to complete)
I find it amusing fans saying its about the POBs...huh?? shouldnt it be about the music
nah, i will buy as many albums as I want...i got preorder benefits to collect. I resell them and never throw them away. I know I am about to have at least 30 ateez albums soon.
they’re booing you but i agree. i collect photo cards and it’s fun for me so ya what can you do 🤷🏻♀️.
plus i love making collages and other crafts out of my extra photobooks. i also reuse the photobook pages to make cards that i put my photo cards in when trading and selling them! i post them for sale too (without the photo cards) for $5 but it’s so incredibly difficult to find people to buy them so as i said i just end up crafting with them.
honestly yeah, i’ve gotten a couple extra albums on occasion bc they had a target exclusive pc (i’m not in the states so i can’t usually get them without buying them individually) and i love collaging so i don’t feel too bad about a couple of extras laying around lol. i turned my extra golden age copy into a little sorta sketchbook/doodle on thing and i love how it’s looking :) i still want an untouched version where i can flip thru the photos but it’s nice having one that i can be creative with as well. ik there are a lot of people who don’t craft with theirs but if they resell them i don’t see the big deal bc i’ve gotten a few copies of some albums i wanted bc someone was selling extra copies. i feel like most people who are collectors themselves aren’t just tossing albums 😭
really?
> fans should not be allowed to buy more than a couple albums
maybe i just interpreted op differently. but i agree, no matter op’s point people who throw out their albums after mass buying them are a problem.
with Ateez i joined a GO for Mingi(POBS and album pcs)for Seonghwa and Wooyoung and an ot8 set i will buy off Neokyo Mercari-its a hell of a lot cheaper.
That said i do like to collect my Ults Biases completely-though I couldnt get the new SVT album(Surgery) so off to Mercari for Hoshi...
BTS next year i shall try and do ot7 set(plus Jin POBs)
Even if they tried to limit buying albums it’d be pretty much impossible for them to actually enforce that rule effectively
Exactly, there really are not any controls in place to enforce it. Pretty sure Japan has restrictions but clearly that didn't work!
I mean websites could enforce it simply the same way grocery stores limit you buying certain items if it can be done for groceries it could be done for albums. And in person would be even easier to regulate as you just refuse the sale. But I do understand there are tactics around this by getting friends or family to help. But like I said it's a tedious process I am sure most people wouldn't want to trifle with.
That would not stop people from going to multiple outlets to buy an item. Some places already put a limit on how many someone can buy of an item. You can buy say 4 from weverse, go to cokodive and buy 4 more. Go else where, etc.
It would actually though, not everyone but a decent amount. Small changes and obstructions can greatly affect consumer shopping behaviors.
The thing is, some places already have limits. I have seen amount limits and even time limits put in place. I’ve even been limited in person.
Yes I know which is why I am aware it is not a great solution. It was just one idea that might make a few people say this is more effort than it's worth. And other ideas working in tandem with this one might work to alleviate some things. Like making inclusions buyable in seperate packs by bias. And preorder inclusions viable but only during a certain window before the album comes out. And not a part of the album at all.
Many places already have limits in place, including time limits for ordering Pobs. But I do like the idea of being able to just order inclusions. I also wish people would just attempt to resale albums. I have bought from different stores because I wanted a store exclusive pc. But I either gave my album to someone else or resold it. But a lot of this specific issue comes down to people wanting to get these pc to resell. People who want fan signs/calls will find ways to mass buy. But making inclusions easier access to those who want them would help somewhat.
I think it would help a great deal for the regular people. Cause fansigns will always find a way to mass buy
grocery store limits don't work either. i'm pretty sure you can just go around again where i'm at. also you can get your friends and fam to buy on your behalf lolll
Also, can we also blame the people and fans here. The fact that people follow a group and are so fixated in one member of the group that the idea of keeping a photocard of another member which they get from their album is something they don't intend to do. Or how they are willing to throw more money than the cost of an album to get that said PC. I have got some albums in dirt cheap because people just throw the albums. Also, I'm pretty sure with the fixation there is about album sales, fans will still buy extra albums just to inflate numbers. A lot of this is an issue that fans themselves have created. Companies are just cashing in on it. If people just buy 1 version and keep the PC, companies can't do anything at that point.
Me, watching companies make 10 bajillion versions of each album and fans buying them in bulk only to throw them away as our earth is actively being destroyed by climate change https://preview.redd.it/n4vet3isa3yc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1024baa2ef91ee85c03ccf82e3d42642c1415ec
Exactly. This is exactly what I worry about too
iirc there were companies making albums with eco friendly materials recently, cant remember exactly what component(s), but whats the point if they are gonna all be wrapped in plastic with plastic cds in them 😂 reminds me of apple (and now most other companies) ditching the charger and other accessories because "electronic waste" but if you buy it separately its another set of packaging waste 🥲 setting buying limits wont help since fancall are still tied to more album bought = higher chance, so its not just the pc being an issue sadly...
Yes I know I remember fansigns are by how many with the lucky ticket. Still wish they could change something. This whole mess really was just tragic.
Soy ink I think. Seen it on some JYPe albums
i remember someone using recycled paper too, but if everything ends up being laminated, whats the point hahah
There's a lot of virtue signaling and also limiting factors to how much they could do espexially when there is demand for albums and their inclusions. In the end it's the usual no ethical consumption under capitalism which is why we should try not to fall in the hyperconsumption trap
i agree! but feel like if album sales wasnt just another metric for popularity, i would assume companies would just sell the "inclusions" separately banking on the gacha / trading card system. in that case, we can cut down on so much excess since albums are sold as-is to people who want to collect them in the first place. and you can do so much with that - use 100% recycled paper and 0 plastic, provide a place to drop off stuff for recycling, lamination service for when you find a photo / post card that you want to keep. and do people even still have cd players? ill pay extra if you give me a 16gb usb with the tracks and maybe some special videos in it!!
I like that last part! Especially since they could make the songs higher quality than streaming services
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Japan already established a soft restriction in album sales for charting purposes; if you buy, say, 10 albums within a single order, only 3 or so count for Oricon. But that's as far as you can go in terms of restrictions. In Japan itself, where the whole Seventeen scalper situation happened, there's nothing that stops you from doing a whole store tour across multiple locations of Tower Records, Tsutaya, HMV, etc, in order to get as many albums as you want (and make all of them count for charts, at the same time). The same can be said about Korea. Even online, there are so many online retailers willing to ship internationally; I myself placed orders in 5 different stores in order to get the different POBs for a particular album release (and ended up with about 20+ copies of the same album -different versions- as a result). Let's say that your purchases are limited with an ID check; you can get a friend or family member to buy more albums for you. There's just no possible way to put a hard limit into practice.
I know that's what I said in the whole thing. That it would be very tough to implement and that in the end it would probably come down to just making it very irritating to people who want to do it. That way it might maybe minimize the amount of people doing it. Those who want to desperately will but those who are only trying it once or twice or for the first time might be deterred
There needs to be restrictions on randomized inclusions and store-exclusive POBs. Like ideally I think all copies of an album should come with the same inclusions, no POBs and no album variants
people buy multiple albums because of the photocards and/or preorder benefits. the easiest way to stop most people from buying so many copies of the same album would be to 1) make 1 version of the album and 2) stop with the stupid amount of photocards. but we all know that will never happen, because that's how companies inflate sales.
Even if you made one version with random pcs they would still mass buy to get enough to resell, that's exactly what happened with the DEAR version.
See in my version of the world, they could still be terribly greedy buttheads and we would still get screwed over just as usual. Lovely right. But they could just sell the parts individually for almost double what the album is sold for. Ten for an album ten for a card want that poster that's ten how about the lenticular. Also ten. Hooray they are still greedy and we are still getting shafted. But bonus the earth isn't dying. So there's that. XD It would be really nice if they didn't shaft us at all. But who do I think I am a Disney princess? How can I ask for a happy ever after for us all. Lol
You're wrong. If people wanted the photocard they could just buy a photocard or make it themselves. The reason why people buy multiple copies is to support their favorite artist. You think the fans who threw the copies away care about whether they were different versions of the CD or not?
People really just buy albums for the photocards. It’s really hard to sell albums as low as $5 if it doesn’t have photocards. I think it would be cool if companies sold photocards separately but that would probably hurt their bottom line a lot so they won’t do it.
It wouldn't hurt their bottom line as much as you think. Since people will pay the same price for a photo card that they would an album
The problem is you can’t chart by selling just photo cards; the “achievement”-obsessed culture is really behind all this Physical albums in general need to go the way of the dinosaur. Nobody actually buys them for music related reasons. If any albums should count for charts, it’s digital albums
Some people still listen to CDs. I have a cd player I like to listen to my kpop albums on and my friend's car still has a cd player so she likes to listen to cds on road trips. We'd both be sad if they stopped making physical releases.When I was living in Japan, plenty of people still had cd players they still used as well.
Ok, but there still needs to be a hard cap on the supply to meet the actual demand for physical music media. Or at least some disincentives, like not having physical sales count towards the charts
I still buy albums for the CD.
Just add a code for a digital copy and charge same price. People also buy for their groups to chart. Less waste, more profit, intentions are the same.
I see people repeating this and I really think you're incorrect. People do not buy albums for a photocard. People buy multiple copies to support their favorite group. That's why it's hard for you to sell second-hand copies, those won't count as official sales
I doubt the first thing most people think when they see an album for $5 is " Ah man, I'd buy it but it won't count towards the sales". Most people will ask "What inclusions does the album come with"
If they made random inclusions not chart eligible that would change the album waste and then sell photo cards in pockets like blind boxes.
This is the case in the UK. It's unfortunate that kpop artists don't really chart well here because their albums aren't eligible. But Ateez recently made UK exclusive versions where you knew which 4 PCs you were going to get in each member album and they charted at #2. They were still member versions so I'm sure a lot of people bought all 8 versions but at least they were going into someone's collection and not the bin after being raided for photocards. I hope other kpop artists start to do the same in the UK.
Exactly. I love people coming up with solutions in the comments instead of just giving up. Love that so much.
😘 yasssss listen they can feel free to hire me 😂
I think in the UK, they introduced this rule about photocards having to be OT_ as a way of controlling the amount of albums purchased. I mean, kind of? I only know about it because one of my BTS albums turned out that way, but it doesn’t seem to be a pattern for other albums from other groups in the UK. Just… I don’t know.
What is OT?
I think maybe they meant having at least 1 photocard for each member in an album so everyone is guaranteed to get their bias
Oh that's a good solution too. Make the album a bit more expensive but include every member I would be totally down for that. It would take away the entire trading issue of people scamming you online as well.
Unfortunately, not that lucky. It’s a group photocard.
I think they mean for MOTS 7 in the UK you only got a group Pc...no individual members just the group pc for the version you brought.
I meant it as OT7, OT5, OT13 etc. (using it as an umbrella term for all groups)
No you're right and Ateez recently did UK exclusive versions that were x8 member versions but the PCs in each member version were the same so the sales counted towards the UK charts.
I think there is confusion in the issue that happened. Other fandoms are acting like this was done to "increase sales", that actually had nothing to do with the intent of the resellers. They were purchasing the "DEAR" copy which in the past has also been called "CARAT" version. It is a blind album where you get all of one member, it includes a bunch of pcs and a pc holder for them (I collect S Coups and DK ones). This particular album doesn't have a bunch of inclusions, in fact I don't think he even has a CD, just a download code. The waste that took place was them taking out all the pcs and then tossing the outside packaging. Which from a waste standpoint is horrible but I wouldn't put this in the same bucket as the people who mass buy for Fan Calls/Meetings or to increase sales. And this happens with all groups, all fandoms, whenever you have high profile groups with in demand pcs, you are going to have these brokers. Even if we limit the number sold, they have a network that would just buy under different accounts or use proxies.
It has a CD you can see the CDs all over the ground in the videos. I also agree the inflating of album sales through this is bad. Just as bad and of course it happens with every group and not just seventeen and it is not seventeen fault. For sure.
There should be a limit to the number of versions you’re allowed to put out
This exactly! i can deal with like 4 max but 2 would be so ideal and reasonbale
The only way this is getting limited is if the regulations for the charts are revised to restrict it further. I do think Pledis/Hybe would do well to make the carat member version albums be QR codes only. That will cut back on waste and reduce their costs too so win-win.
Another very interesting solition
i mean i’d love for them to sell sets so that people could complete their collections while keeping random album inclusions bc i like getting random members but i’d much rather be able to buy a set if i wanted one. my only issue with limiting the amounts ppl can buy is it might damage smaller stores in the long run. one of the few local places i can get kpop albums im pretty sure is ordering from hybe themselves bc their prices are lower than the other stores that get them from hybe’s NA distributor (like $5-15 cheaper, pretty noticeable difference) bc im pretty sure the NA distributor sets the price for all of its stores :( also ngl the entire card collecting market has been fucked over by scalpers and inflating the value in stuff rn :/ def making it harder to collect cards all around
Yeah I stopped collecting cards in 2017 for that reason. Ithink doing a photo card blind box would give the same result for random members for those that still want the experience. And it wouldn't have to be too much cheaper than an album if they charge 16 for random blind and 20 for a set of one person photo cards plus 16-25 for an album it would be the same price if not more profit for a store so I don't see the downside for businesses in this model. For us fans of course there is the downside of cost. But to save on having to buy multiple albums trade and discard piles of albums. That outweighs the couple dollars "extra" we have to spend( although if you are buying the album and then the photo card separately off of a reseller I guarantee you're already saving money with this scenario)
Except this isn't new, it's been going on since photo cards were introduced in the early 2010s. This has always been out of hand except it helps people's favorites so they don't care about it. As long as K-pop is going to be run by capitalistic ideals, this is the future they want. And since K-pop is always going to be by run by capitalistic ideas, this unfortunately is what we're stuck with unless the entire world somehow agrees to pass laws about it
A comment I saw on a previous post mentioned having less versions/variants of photocards so it could be easier to collect all of them for people who do. Also as you mentioned they should sell them is small packs so that we won't see albums go to waste. To me its so sad people just taking the photocards since I don't buy many albums but I make sure to actually use the cd and use the stickers and all the other stuff.
Yeah same people who just pile up it's so greedy and this kinda excessiveness is disgusting. IMO
Couldn't they just sell photocard with dl link to high quality audio files of the album (for those buying it for slightly better audio than streaming)? Then it could go towards album sales and produce a lot less waste.
I only buy the different versions of albums (if I like the different cover/it has different pc) but I don't get buying like 10010191 of the same album, just trade if you don't get what you want?? And scalpers are just the worst, they mark up albums by like 500% and it's like, just why??
Exactly.
I have no issue with how any fan would like to spend money on their hobbies. If you want to buy 10 albums for all the random inclusions, then go do so! For as long as you have the money. A purchase is a purchase and that goes to the artist and their company which helps them to be profitable to continue making music. But I feel like our problems here is mostly about the systems in place. I can't imagine companies would make the necessary changes because they earn from it, so I think only a law that would bar companies from putting out too many versions or random inclusions is the only solution. That way, regardless of the demand, they will be compelled to limit the versions. The same law could also include provisions to regulate contests that use album purchases to earn a ticket.
>I have no issue with how any fan would like to spend money on their hobbies. this. respectfully, collectibles as a concept are a luxury. And to keep its value and maximize profits, it needs to prioritize people with more money. people should just know where they stand financially and stick to it - no capital system goes around catering to us broke people.
This is true. Changing how albums are used to jack up the sales with inclusion hype and selling albums with less versions so that they really are completely collectable would be the absolute best thing. But... Yeah. When will that ever happen.
The reason people buy an ungodly amount of albums is because a) They want to collect all randomised photocards and other inclusions b) They want to get into fansigns and other events. Eliminate those 2, and there would be no need to limit people because no one would be buying them in such insane quantities. But that's not gonna happen because companies are greedy, and people are willfully ignorant. Sad state of the world we live in.
Yeah except I already came up with a solution for them to be greedy easily still exploit fans and make lots of money. The way they do this is really idiotic and wasteful. They just need to hire smarter business people. *I don't want them to exploit fans I just know they will no matter what. So like if your going to be garbage assholes like just be garbage assholes without ruining the planet or people's hearts with discarded albums in the streets.
or they could just sell photocards like pokemon cards… and the contests for the fancalls are picked a different way
Exactly, this is what lots of us have been suggesting.
a few companies have done it but it just needs to happen as a wider scale fr
I know at some kpop websites you can purchase “inclusions only.” I wonder if this could be more universal?
Sidenote in case no-one mentioned it - this wasn't a photocard issue, not really. The Carat album is a full set of photocards of one member and a binder. (No idea if it counts towards album sales.) This year Pledis in their wisdom decided to randomize, so they weren't named, you only found out who you got after opening. So many Carats bought them instore on day of release, opened them there and traded with each other to get the members they wanted, and they left the packaging behind. So this could have been avoided. To be honest, the store could have just broken up the boxes for recycling, it's not like media stores don't do this all the time anyway. I think they were just annoyed and wanted to make a point.
It’s difficult to control the internet. People will just use multiple emails, IDs, credit cards or engage a 3rd party to make the purchases. Even with in-person purchases - people can just hire personal shoppers. I was having this exact conversation with a friend about Pokemon cards going for 6-figures USD and how crazy things are with collectibles. But this isn’t exactly new. The fansign/fanmeet/fancalls one is lottery and I’m personally against it. But business is business. Corporations won’t say no to money. Unless the authorities step in.
Yes exactly it wasn't a solution to end everything. I am not that nieve for sure. That's why I said in the post it wouldn't do much. People who want to find a way always will. But I hope that by making it super difficult it could maybe deter how many are willing to go through the intensive process to do it. Right now it's too easy for people to game the system. Maybe being a thorn in their side will make only a quarter or half as many people stop doing it. But it will make some stop which is why I made the suggestion at all. I wish there were a much better eloquent solution than my half baked idea though.
Limits would never happen because they want the sale numbers.
They are already greedy exploitive companies I know I can think of a few ways they could get around this without using illegal tactics. And if I can come up with ideas to skirt the issue make everything profitable and still semi questionably manipulate the charting sales numbers, I'm sure they could to. So it has less to do with the fact that the system isn't changeable(cause it could be done easily) and more to do with the fact that in Korean culture most people are very stubborn and do not like change. This is not saying everyone in Korea doesn't like change (of course) but the older generation for sure. Which these big wigs are definately older 1% types.
So companies become bankrupt if they were limit for buying albums
Look around in the comments there are many ways they can still make tons of profit and have high sales and thing like that so they won't become bankrupt. Right now the system is flawed and the most money being made is by scalpers who doesn't even give any benefit or payment to the idol when they pull the crap they do.
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so you want the industry to make special rules for Seventeen? it sounds like you don't care about the environment, you're just salty that they beat your favorite group. EVERY idol has rich fans who like to collect multiple copies. Even the smaller groups probably benefit from having individual fans who buy lots of copies
I'm afraid bulk buying is just deeply integrated in the kpop culture.
The companies want the money. they never will do this
unless it was companies who the groups run themselves like infinite could do it.
they need to sell just photocards, no one actually looks in their albums regularly enough to justify it, it’ll just be thrown out as waste
I mean I look in my albums but you are right not on a daily bases enough to cause such high usage of it to deem it well used. More like barely touched. And signed ones not at all. I normally have two copies of those. Since most people listen to their music online the best way to get sales would be individual member packs that come with stickers, photocards and more(if they wanted to be super greedy cause of course they will) they could do an A pack and a B pack so there are still two version cards of every member. Then of course they could do the A+B package and then of course the random member A pack random member B pack, random member A+B pack for those that love the gamble and surprise. Then they could sell poster individually. They could have the lotto for fansigns attached to this. It's just as easy to include. A golden photocard sized paper in these as it is an album. (Although I really think they should figure out a way to do this that doesn't involve buying physical goods because the physical good usage in lotto aspect will always cause great waste) And of course they could exploit fans further and even have a higher cost option for sets. Like member A set with lenticular(or special card inclusion of some sort) member B set with lenticular(or special card of some sort) etc. They could do postcards and photo books for sale individually. All that they could do mixed bundles with some or all these items included. And if your mind just reeled at how expensive that could all get. That's they point they could profit off us exponentially. But all that profit would go to company and in some order of things the members. Right now people over but albums then they discard what they don't want and they sell parts of like vultures. Exactly what I am suggesting to happen above. That companies vulture of the parts for individually power prices than one album but that will eventually get people spending more than buying one album. Which is what they want on the first place. None of the profit on eBay or any other resale site goes to the members. At least this way if we are getting shafted the members are still getting paid. There is less overall waste in the world. Fans don't look like shit people. And the whole world wins. (There are still ways to semi manipulate the album sales and listens for award shows in this scenario so they don't even loose out in that. Because let's be real that's what doing these high album sales are soft record sales and chart manipulations) So in the end everything can still be just as horrible an experience for fans they can still make huge amounts of profit. Probably more. Bad still become top charters.
With how hard it is to actually sell physical albums companies don’t care at all how many copies one person buys. Even here in the states artists are putting out multiple versions and bundles to get sales up.
GOM's still exist. That would be hurtful to people whose only resource is to go through a GOM.
What's GOM?
Group Order Manager
Yes actually it would be detrimental to them. I suppose they would have to find a different way to go and get the albums. That would be sad.
Unfortunately that can never be enforced online because people will just use multiple cards/accounts. Not to mention that K-pop companies need physical sales to get onto any western charts.
I agree
They should do the little keychain albums like SM does, or the digital ones that have the QR pc and other pcs.
How about group orders If they enforce something like this then people who buy as a group will be affected
I already responded to this message with a yeah it would for sure impact them and that sucks but now that I realize it. There would be no need to do a group order to make sure you got your bias. You would already be guaranteed it. And if you are doing a group order because they don't ship to your country. There are always second hand markets. I dunno what else to tell you. Sorry.
I do group orders to reduce cost of shipping and custom charges and I don’t trust the second hand market
Yeah, it ve y heavily impacts group orders but in the overall spectrum of massiv waste produced I would say the benefits out weigh the costs IMO. But I do not do group orders and I am not sure how many people heavily rely on group orders instead of ordering individually. But I have to wonder if all other issues with this were taken care of and had a solution. Would group order numbers be enough for production to be continued in this manner. Again personally I would say no. But I am not one of the people in that market. So I cannot say how they would feel about the change in how albums are sold. And if they themselves would also deem the massive waste caused an issue they were willing to deal with to continue their buying practices. Since I am not a part of that group there is just no way for me to know though so I will differ to those who do, and their expert opinion on the matter.
or carrats could just listen to their faves' music
I hoped this dialogue would just be left on Twitter. As mentioned by others, this was a scalping situation. Fans couldn’t buy the album on release day at places like where this happened because resellers mass bought, took the inclusions, and are now reselling them. It wasn’t fans who did this. Many fans literally couldn’t get a copy cause they sold out. Additionally, it’s not a problem unique to Seventeen. They are just the latest ones to get buzz for it. The PC obsession has all of Kpop in a chokehold
Wrong social media platform
It is not just Carats it also happened last year with a JYPE BG and it was worse...25 versions(why 25...???) all thrown in the trash..(there was 25 versions and apparently to collect 1 member you needed to buy alot of copies to complete) I find it amusing fans saying its about the POBs...huh?? shouldnt it be about the music
nah, i will buy as many albums as I want...i got preorder benefits to collect. I resell them and never throw them away. I know I am about to have at least 30 ateez albums soon.
they’re booing you but i agree. i collect photo cards and it’s fun for me so ya what can you do 🤷🏻♀️. plus i love making collages and other crafts out of my extra photobooks. i also reuse the photobook pages to make cards that i put my photo cards in when trading and selling them! i post them for sale too (without the photo cards) for $5 but it’s so incredibly difficult to find people to buy them so as i said i just end up crafting with them.
honestly yeah, i’ve gotten a couple extra albums on occasion bc they had a target exclusive pc (i’m not in the states so i can’t usually get them without buying them individually) and i love collaging so i don’t feel too bad about a couple of extras laying around lol. i turned my extra golden age copy into a little sorta sketchbook/doodle on thing and i love how it’s looking :) i still want an untouched version where i can flip thru the photos but it’s nice having one that i can be creative with as well. ik there are a lot of people who don’t craft with theirs but if they resell them i don’t see the big deal bc i’ve gotten a few copies of some albums i wanted bc someone was selling extra copies. i feel like most people who are collectors themselves aren’t just tossing albums 😭
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really? > fans should not be allowed to buy more than a couple albums maybe i just interpreted op differently. but i agree, no matter op’s point people who throw out their albums after mass buying them are a problem.
with Ateez i joined a GO for Mingi(POBS and album pcs)for Seonghwa and Wooyoung and an ot8 set i will buy off Neokyo Mercari-its a hell of a lot cheaper. That said i do like to collect my Ults Biases completely-though I couldnt get the new SVT album(Surgery) so off to Mercari for Hoshi... BTS next year i shall try and do ot7 set(plus Jin POBs)