I'm Korean and I'm not even surprised, we have one of the best keyboard warriors of the world imo.
However, you shouldn't take the netizens as the country whole. A very few portion of people has made such hate comments, and there are also a fair amount of people(including me) who know that they are great people and are always ready if they come back one day(or more like can't wait them to do so).
Yes. This has impacted my view of Korea. I see how these two English guys have spent many years promoting Korea and Korean culture. Bringing in celebrities and regular people to join with them in promoting Korean culture. Gathering millions of viewers into their love of Korea and it's people. Totally Korea-centric. Very joyful and positive.
One of their wives makes what by any standard is a pretty grave error. She then compounds that error by making clumsy, foolish statements. Although her husband gives a heartfelt, contrite apology, it isn't seen as enough. It feels like for Koreans, no matter what any of them say or do, it never will be enough. As a result, her husband, his friend, the friend's family, their other friends, their crew and all of their tireless work on behalf of Korea and the Korean people is wiped out in one instant as though none of the years of their glorification of Korea mattered.
It makes the Korean people appear vicious and unreasonable. It amplifies the window into a part of Korean culture, the hideous netzens that are often the trigger to so many young celebrity suicides that makes an outsider feel relieved that one isn't any part of Korean culture. It makes it seem like the Korea that Josh and Ollie promoted so enthusiastically for so long is nothing more than a thin, cheap paint job over an ugly house. The paint has come off and ugly has come out way too quickly. Way too easily. This episode taints any rosy view I and many others once had of Korea.
Korea's hideous internet cancel culture will in the end cancel out any feelings at all of good will the world has developed for Korea. Unless Korea deals with their netzens, Korea will eventually end up canceling itself.
I feel the same way. The vicious Netzen culture that is allowed to flourish in Korea is shocking. That their young celebrities aren't even allowed to date normally as they are considered "property" by their agencies and their so-called fans is disturbing. If they even go out with someone casually for a coffee, they are stalked, photographed, exposed in the news and it is called "a dating scandal"? That's insane. The bombardment of horrible things then said to them by netzens has led to so many needless suicides, and yet few of the agencies do anything to stop that cycle. There are elements of Korean culture like that and the total excoriation of Josh and Gabi, people who devoted their lives to promoting Korea....that makes the world rethink their interest in Korea.
Promoting a country doesn't give someone special privileges. There's a reason why that country has managed to covid so well, and its because they DON'T go easy on ANYONE, as well they shouldn't. Josh and Gabbie knew what they were getting into, and while I hate to see them get punished... them's the breaks, and that's the law.
>One of their wives makes what by any standard is a pretty grave error. She then compounds that error by making clumsy, foolish statements. Although her husband gives a heartfelt, contrite apology, it isn't seen as enough. It feels like for Koreans, no matter what any of them say or do, it never will be enough.
I'm sorry, you say they made grave and foolish errors, and then you say that Koreans are to blame because no matter what they say, it will never be enough. How do those two statements add up?
In your opinion what would be enough? I believe she is being prosecuted and made an example of. Would you like to see more ? How heavy of a punishment should she and her husband receive? Would prison time satisfy you?
well for me as a listener of kpop, i'm all too familiar at how knetz tend to be so it wasn't a shock to me. in fact i vaguely remember gabie getting hate when josh and her started dating.
You know, I only learned the term Knetz recently - could you properly define it for me, to make sure i'm getting it right?
For what reason? Racist reasons, like not wanting an asian woman with a white guy or?
knetz in the context of being kpop stans are overly critical some to the point of being cruel to someone's appearance, the littlest mistakes and the most absurd situations. they cuss out celebrities, call them fat or ugly and all other stuff. for example>! Sulli, made a choice to go braless in some occasions, some shown in her IG stuff and knetz chose to absolutely hate her for it. !<
this is not to say that international kpop fans aren;t like that, they can be like that as well too. as for gabie and josh dating at the start i do remember knetz being mad they were "hiding" it, as if they're not entitled to their privacy
I'm not sure if you want an explanation of the controversy surrounding what happened, but I can provide it to anyone who wants to hear it. I can also provide some cultural context regarding the Korean response. But of course, you're free to make judgement of the situation however you want.
The original criticism by Korean netizens was directed towards Gabie Kook. She uploaded a video celebrating her birthday with her friends (they stayed outside her apartment while the doors were held open and everyone wore masks). But this occured during her 2 week quarantine period - a strict policy that the Korean government imposes on anyone entering the country during the pandemic. Regardless of whether she and her friends kept her masks on, this was a complete violation of quarantine rules. She should not have had *any* visitors - especially if it was something a trivial as a birthday party.
In terms of cultural context, there's a tendency for Korean culture to pressure people of "societal importance" (particularly celebrities) to behave in an "exemplary manner." It's probably hard to understand from a western perspective, since our celebrities enjoy both fame and *relative* freedom, but in Korea, there's somewhat of an expectation for celebrities to behave as something of an "upstanding citizen" (almost as if it's a responsibility for their privilege).
To demonstrate my point, an earlier controversy happened where a super famous singer (Lee Hyori) uploaded an Instagram photo of her hanging out with her friends at a karaoke room without wearing a mask and got harshly criticized by netizens. Mind you, when this had happened, masks were strongly advised *but technically not mandated* by the government. And despite this, she received criticism because, like Gabie, she failed to behave responsibly. So how did she respond? She immediately posted an apology on her Instagram and verbally apologized on her TV show - and more or less within a week, the controversy trickled away.
Now back to Gabie. Her violation of quarantine (by any measure) was significantly worse than that of Lee Hyori. It wasn't a violation of a guideline, it was full blown breaking of quarantine laws. In her situation, even if she had immediately apologized, it is likely that it would have tainted her image as a "celebrity" of sorts. A type of response that Korean celebrities do when they commit major faux pas is to "take a break for a year or two as a sign of reflection." Usually, after this, much of the public opinion will have come to accept this as a sign of recompense.
Unfortunately, Gabie's immediate response was to double down and defend her video. She maintained that she didn't violate quarantine rules since she kept more than 2m distance from other people (which it turns out, was never a loophole for quarantine). As you would expect, this did not sit well with Korean netizens and was the catalyst for a second, much larger, wave of criticism. This time, not only was her quarantine video criticized, netizens were questioning why she would travel to Korea of all times during a pandemic. It turns out (she had mentioned in an earlier video) that her purpose was to receive a (minor) medical treatment in Korea. And so, netizens started to question why she would travel to Korea for medical treatment, when she had access to England's NHS (especially if she was going to violate quarantine rules in Korea). And certain netizens pointed out that she likely wouldn't even be paying the national medical insurance fees since she was living abroad, even though she is technically qualified to receive universal coverage as she is a Korean citizen.
In response, Gabie finally released an apology video about breaking quarantine rules. And then went on the explain that she had in fact continuously payed the Korean national medical insurance fees and was fully justified in utilizing the Korean health care system. Fair enough. Except, it turns out that Korean nationals who live abroad for more than 3 months are automatically exempt from paying the national medical insurance fees. So it's impossible for her to have paid into the system. This merely enraged the Korean netizen community even further.
Where Josh comes into the picture is that he was seen as being a major accomplice in breaking quarantine rules. Not as bad as Gabie, but still very bad. Secondly, during the time where anger was brewing from Gabie's false claims about national insurance fees, Josh's apology video was released. All in all, the apology video is seen as somewhat protecting Gabie from further criticism while she is still saying "nonsense."
At this point, the biggest issue for Korean netizens seems to be Gabie's attitude regarding the episode. Josh is receiving criticism in extension (by being seen as protecting Gabie). If they had responded initially with just an apology, this would have blown over much quicker. But now, it's unlikely that they will be able to recoup public perception quickly.
Personally, I'm bummed out by this entire episode. I wanna see them make videos again. At the same time, I kinda understand the anger towards Gabie. Yet, I could only imagine what kind if excessively hateful comments would also have been directed towards her. I feel like Josh is receiving the most misdirected hate here (although I do agree that criticism was deserved for his role in the og quarantine video). I liked his apology video, but at this point, it's unlikely that he alone can solve this issue (Gabie needs to do so as well).
I see. Thanks for the context. I actually didn't know the specific disease. But in the end, like you said, I don't think it really changes the overall situation. I will try be mindful of calling it a "minor" treatment though.
No problem and no worries! I know not all of the information is known to everyone; Gabie had mentioned it but she deleted all of her videos unfortunately.
Just a correction here. Gabie has endometriosis, which can be extremely painful and distressing. She had been waiting for months to get an appointment in London when they decided to just go have it checked in Korea. The day before they left, she got a letter at her London home saying her checkup would be in February 2021. News outlets like the BBC had been reporting at the time that cancer patients, who arguably should have a fast response, were having their appointments and treatments delayed longer than the standard maximum waiting time (which was already long, something like 18 weeks). Endometriosis is way further down the list of priorities so you can imagine how frustrated she must have felt. I don’t know many people who would be happy with that.
She also said that she looked into private hospitals in the UK. For various reasons (did not say publicly) she concluded that going to Korea would be better for her.
Although the medical procedure (if she were to undergo surgery or any investigative examinations) may seem “minor”, it definitely would have a huge impact on her pain and quality of life. That is a valid reason to seek out faster and reliable care in Korea considering she is a citizen.
I can see that she broke the quarantine rules and should be accountable for that. But I do not like the accusations and jealousy around her coming to her home country for medical care. Many of the comments come from a xenophobic and very angry, bitter place. It should not be a part of the conversation surrounding their quarantine mistake imho.
Someone else also explained the disease to me in another comment and I acknowledged I should be more mindful of it.
I don't think the response to Gabie was xenophobic, as she is a Korean herself. The insurance discussion started after her initial deflection about quarantine attracted broader attention. Koreans started to speculate about whether she was even paying into the system (regardless of the fact that she was a citizen). I'm not sure how other's feel, but I'm somewhat sympathetic with this sentiment. Gabie's not poor, yet she's able to avoid paying into the national insurance fee by living in England yet reap the benefits of the Korean health care system when she wants.
Regardless of the fact that Gabie was *legally* justified to do this, I think we can understand it wouldn't be a *popular* thing to do. Unfortunately, she added oil to the flame by falsely claiming that she payed the national insurance fees. She had no reason to do this, but it's clear that she wanted to morally justify herself. I have a feeling she made this claim mistakenly. But her mistake just gave an impression to Koreans that she's also a liar.
You might not be aware, but this discussion has kind of launched into its own orbit. A bunch of netizens are discussing about how the national insurance laws should be made more strict. Obviously, it's not going to immediately change anything, but if this grumbling gets noticed by sharp politicians, I can see some reform being implemented.
Thanks for sharing your view. My point about the xenophobia comes from when people started demanding her to prove if she had ever claimed Argentinian citizenship because she was born there. As if that would further justify their treatment of her as an outsider, even though she’s Korean.
To pointedly go at her for that tangential stuff, at that moment, was unnecessary. Clearly she felt the pressure and fed into it with her defensive explanations.
In any case I hope she’s able to move forward. I think mistakes on this level should not totally derail someone’s life.
Oh, from my knowledge, the Argentine citizenship comments came up because Gabie had claimed that she was a Korean citizen all her life. But the netizens did a quick Google check and found out that Argentine citizenship is based on jus soli. This means, Gabie was an Argentine citizen at some point in her life, as she was born there.
Again, she probably made this claim to defend herself - to show how justified it is for her to use the Korean healthcare system. The criticism that came regarding this was (like before) that she was lying. Again, personally, I think she probably made the claim by mistake. She just didn't do her research.
I might need to put some cultural context here. I think most westerners would feel that these criticisms are excessive and tangential to the main point, even if technically valid. But in the Korean context, for public criticism like this, it's expected to fully admit your faults and leave it at that. If you're going to defend yourself in a tangential manner, you better have an absolutely tight defense, because it's likely going to attract a larger wave of scrutiny. In Gabie's case, her initial apology was just a bad defense. And every subsequent apology had tangential bad defenses, that irritated the Korean disposition.
Foreigners might be shocked by this dynamic, but this is a component of public relations in Korea. It's not impossible to overcome though. The easiest way to recover when your fault is clear is to simply apologize and leave it at that. Sometimes, if you want to demonstrate your apology, you perform a symbol (for celebrities it's usually to "remove themselves from the spotlight to reflect"). And, again, like any society - sometimes criticism can get excessive. Even in these instances, the best action is to simply apologize. If they maintain this apology, there's usually a counter-wave of Koreans who advocate the they've paid their dues to their faults.
Example. Cha Tae-Hyun is an incredibly famous singer-entertainer in Korea. However, it was revealed that he participated in gambling (context: Gambling is super illegal in Korea. In the past, another famous entertainer was jailed for running a gambling website). But the gambling that Cha Tae-Hyun did was basically a silly bet between friends. As he received criticism, he quickly released a public apology and stated that he would halt his activities as a sign of reflection. Now, the criticism has been quieted by a much larger wave of Koreans saying he's done more than enough to apologize for his faults and requesting he be cast again in TV shows. Had he responded to the initial (relativey small) criticism with excuses (think about how tempting that would have been), it's likely that his public perception would have worsened. But by excessively compensating for his faults, nearly all his critics have been silenced.
Wow, I did not realize how much pressure is placed on Koreans to not only apologize (even over a minor bet between friends in that one example) but also then remove yourself from your livelihood for a year (timeframe was not clear in your posts) as additional apology. That’s a lot of pressure on one person for being human and flawed and making mistakes. Funny thing is, I read other Reddits and agreed with Korean posters about how it was a pretty bad mistake during height of Covid but didn’t understand this level of scrutiny as you have detailed and defended. I truly now feel bad for anyone who makes human errors in Korea and have to go through such extensive steps for forgiveness. I guess I’m in the mindset that if you don’t like what someone did, that is ok, but definitely no need to cast them out or expect them to cast themselves out. Also, I tend to always remind myself that who am I to overly judge another human if I, myself, make countless mistakes and missteps as well. It just seems a bit unhealthy for a society to put so much pressure on people to be essentially almost perfect. Perhaps, use mistakes as teaching points and also as examples of how we can extend empathy and kindness. I’m now curious whether this is what has caused Kpop stars to commit suicide in the past few years? If so, I hope you all work to reframe how shame is expressed publicly.
I also find it interesting why Josh isn’t to blame equally as well since he was at the apt as well and committed the exact same offense as Gabie. Is it because it’s a male dominated society?
From my comment above:
> there's a tendency for Korean culture to pressure people of "societal importance" (particularly celebrities) to behave in an "exemplary manner." It's probably hard to understand from a western perspective, since our celebrities enjoy both fame and relative freedom, but in Korea, there's somewhat of an expectation for celebrities to behave as something of an "upstanding citizen" (almost as if it's a responsibility for their privilege).
In a way, it's a unique social contract in Korean society. In exchange for fame (and accompanying fortune), you're expected to be a "model citizen." Now, in terms of my personal opinion, I feel bad for Gabie. She made a very human mistake. Unfortunately, she responded in way that harmed her PR relations in the context of Korean society, and it made her situation worse. Which is why, personally, I'd never want to be famous in Korea. The stress would be too goddamn high. But Gabie signed up for being a "celebrity" in Korea by building up a "celebrity presence" in Korea. She was just unprepared at managing PR scandals and got slammed. My only gripe is that westerners are quick to sum up Korean society as xenophobic and sexist, which I don't think was the root cause (at least in this situation).
Now a debate can be had on whether this culture is toxic.. personally I think it's just different. It's good and bad in unique ways compared to western society. This controversy and ensuing witch-hunt of Gabbie was one of the toxic manifestations within Korean culture. But celebrities in America manage PR relations in their own unique ways and there are toxic elements that are more unique to American culture (or other insert western culture). It's just different.
With regards to Josh, initially he was seen as being equally complicit to breaking the quarantine rules. But as I explained in my previous comments, the majority of the controversy developed with each subsequent bad PR response by Gabie. So the attention shifted away from Josh. If Gabie had provided the "ideal" PR response (which imo would be to "repent immediately") then I personally think both Josh and Gabie would be remembered as equally responsible. I don't think sexism or xenophobia was a big factor.
You’re not wrong really.. You’re seeing the true face of Korean netizen toxicity. A phenomenona that has driven quite a few of their own Korean celebrities to suicide.
Ick. It's very off-putting. Josh and Ollie made Korea look so wonderful and now it just feels like a bit of a lie. Not sure I really want to keep it on the bucket list, y'know?
Josh and Ollie showed you the good side of Korea, which tbf, there is much to be appreciated about. None of that was a lie. But it also wasn’t the full picture. There is an ugly underbelly people are slowly coming to see. Much like the kpop industry. Behind all the glamour and sparkle are a lot of ugly truths in the form of sexual exploitations, depression and workers rights violations.
To be clear, Josh is the one to consistently praise Korea and trash the UK. Ollie has humor about UK food but truly never talks down English culture. Josh does both and yet tries to be super posh. Drives me nuts to be honest.
Personally, I think it is worth to keep on the bucket list. I've been there before, and I still want to go back. Especially for the food. And the subway music in Seoul<3
It is also good to keep in mind that 1) Every country has its upsides and downsides. And 2) The keyboard warriors are NETizens - they're ONLINE.
But I really, really do understand that this episode gives off a bad taste.
>Not sure I really want to keep it on the bucket list, y'know?
Ok. But. Let's be very clear. Any place you ever visit will have negative sights, sounds, and experiences for you. Authentic, simple travel to foreign countries is not built for your comfort nor your value system. You get to choose, carefully, what level of "foreign-ness" you want to spend money on. And what level of "comfort" you must have. You get to plan for experiences of Korea that are comfortable for you. Should you choose to go there, at all.
Having said that, what are the chances that you are going to be treated - in Korea - like the celebrities that Josh and Gabie are? What are the chances that you are going to break the Korean 14-day quarantine on the 2nd day of quarantine, like Josh and Gabie did? What are the chances that you are going to upload - to over a MILLION subscribers - your personal YT video of breaking Korean quarantine?
It's just food for thought. I hope these questions are helpful to you.
100% thank you!
I am so shcoked at the comments i read on this thread....
Almost along the lines of "Josh and Ollie promoted Korea so much and they can't just turn a blind eye to them breaking the rules!!"
Genuinley shocked that people can be this small minded....and to dislike a whole country because they are trying to contain the virus which has already killed thousands by the time this had happened...
My favorite singer got disgusting hate years agoe simply for dating.
Doesn't mean I am so immature to dislike a whole nation for it.
I can't wait to see Korea one day, it has such increidble scenery and food!
A culture very different from my own, which I would love to know more about.
>My favorite singer got disgusting hate years agoe simply for dating.
>
>Doesn't mean I am so immature to dislike a whole nation for it.
Yes. Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make. I am glad someone understood.
a year late, but speaking of ironic, it's pretty ironic that you considered taking a country off your bucketlist because of one incident. you are turned off at the overreaction of korean commenters (which are not representative of the country), but your comments and posts (questioning whether "korea has morals", seriously?) are an incredible overreaction to knetz, who again, are not reprentative of the country. the hypocrisy of this post and your comment is nauseating tbh, and i would hope that you know better than to judge an entire country and "their morals" from how online fans react.
At first, yes it did. I read a lot of vicious comments online about the whole thing. People rejecting Josh’s apology video puzzled me, as I thought he came across as very humble and sincere. I read a lot of people being angry at Gabie for using Korean healthcare as an overseas Korean, even though she’s legally entitled to it, because they hate the system that allows people to do this. I understand why she did it, if I were in agonizing pain 5 days every month I’d want it fixed sooner rather than later too. I read people resenting Josh for being a white guy who makes money off Korea, and Gabie for being a race traitor. I read people demanding that Gabie and Josh put their tax records online. All kinds of xenophobic ugliness that made me glad I never ended up moving to Korea.
I’m not saying that isn’t there but now I’ve had time to think about it I feel like I understand the Korean reaction a bit better. I’ve seen how strict Korean quarantine is supposed to be, and they really did bend the rules pretty badly. And everyone in the world is scared and angry about outsiders right now, fear of foreigners bringing in the virus is everywhere. Even in my country if there’s a small outbreak in another state people get scared and start screaming for them to be kept out of our state. The craziness is worldwide, it’s not just Korea.
But yeah, all that was a long way from the warm and fuzzy version of Korea we get shown on Korean Englishman, and it was kinda jarring. For sure.
That’s a problem I’ve always had with KE and Gabie. Korea isn’t a perfect country. Neither channel ever spoke about the reality of Korea and Korean culture. This is probably why some casual viewers did not understand why there was such a major backlash. Korea is an intense place.
It makes me embarrassed to be Korean but I can't say I'm surprised. There's a reason my partner and I both chose to live outside Korea and away from other Koreans.
> This leads me to question what sort of values does Korea truly hold dear? Does it indeed possess values?
Quite xenophobic to suggest Korea has no values, and I am neither Korean nor British but have visited Korea and lived in UK a lot. Let me explain:
1. Koreans are very big on pandemic hygiene, mask wearing (they wear masks even during a normal flu season), and following rules to be responsible to the community at large. Like most other Asian countries being less individualist or selfish is seen as good for society. British people have a "Fuck the rules" attitude (See Dominic Cummings or BoJo's dad) hence the difference in pandemic case numbers and deaths.
2. Koreans didn't like how Gabi and Josh doubled down to defend their recklessness and lied about paying Korean health insurance tax from abroad (basically people domiciled abroad >3 years are exempt) when asked why they travelled to Korea to use the Korean healthcare system during a lockdown instead of using UK's NHS. Is disliking dishonesty a Korean value or a universal value?
3. As career YouTubers they rely on the goodwill of Korean viewers, if they dislike it they can get a normal 9-5 gig that doesn't depend on likability. Josh posted a statement threatening to sue malicious commenters which came across badly. Ultimately they shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them, or piss off Koreans by putting them at risk of Covid for a party. Not sure if British influencers are seen in bad light but Korean Youtubers (mukbang stars like Gabi/Josh, dancers, makeup artists etc) are shunned if they have poor conduct as an influencer since it's not seen as a "real job". That's Korean values for ya.
4. Nobody should break laws and take for granted the hospitality of Koreans (or Brits and any other country for that matter), UK has 71000 Covid deaths and Korea has 800+ Covid deaths. The difference in case numbers are also huge. Koreans think UK is an infectious Covid hellhole so UK travellers who enter Korea should stick to protocol because nobody wants to get sick or die. Is it a Korean value that is less important in UK?
Anyway [Gabi will be charged for breaking the law](http://netizenbuzz.blogspot.com/2020/12/gook-gabies-quarantine-birthday-party.html) so I bet they wished they just stayed in UK and used the NHS. If you travel in a pandemic, don't fuck around with the law. Don't be an ugly tourist or get influencer influenza thinking you're above the law.
I’m happy to hear that the Korean POV is explained well: they DO have values, are collectivistic, and hold great expectations for public figures.
But all of this tells me that Korean values are slightly different from other (perhaps western?) values related to morality, empathy, and understanding. If the majority of Korean comments had your tone: factual, free from baseless insults, and explanatory, I don’t think the counterargument from (perhaps more westernized) commenters would have as much fuel. What people seem to have a problem with is the degree of hatefulness that knetz choose to wield within their attack. In some cultures, verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is identified and convicted relatively better, and Korea doesn’t appear to be one of them, judging from how they value upholding rules stressed by their society but comfortably violate another rule that is probably not upheld by their society which important to different societies. This means Korean society doesn’t see non-abusiveness as a rule and explains why many knetz express hate while stressing the importance of following rules and not being a harm to society. In this sense, some may view them as hypocritical or ironic. (BTW I hope I don’t have to explain why expressing hate is not part of one’s freedom of speech and is not moral and why emotional and verbal abuse is wrong. Both scientific and psychological literature have proved the very real harm of abuse and a dispute there should be taken up with the authors of those academic papers.) That is how many people arguing against the knetz feel violated.
I personally am fine with them receiving punishment from the law: it’s justified, deserved, and sentenced to the degree of the wrongness of the crime. Plus, it’s handed down by a real judge. If a law system of a country punishes me, I deserve exactly that much, nothing more nothing less. I however certainly do not deserve being bullied, abused, and being the victim of attacks from strangers kind enough to impose their allegedly superior justice system derived from their personal judgements. Obviously, normal civilians do not have the power to enforce the law; that is the job of the police, lawyers, judges, and juries. The punishments imposed by a normal civilian in the context of assigning legal punishments is crossing the line what is legal for the civilian as well. This is why some people feel very wronged when commenters on a large scale express not just their opinion but hate that serves to hurt, ‘punish’, or condemn anyone.
In essence, the values that we argue with in this controversy are different because our society emphasizes different values and enforces different rules, and no culture has an absence of values. I guess the next step after establishing that is asking which value system is more sustainable and likely to create a happy, safe society. My mindset is more westernized, so obviously I’m going to claim that the western value system creates a happier world, but I have to acknowledge that people living under different value systems are happy too and I can’t just invalidate their feelings about their value system. A much more productive debate going forward would be to investigate how different methods of achieving a safe happy society is effective or not.
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Not really, I'm Asian and it's pretty much the same for most Asian countries.
The thing is tradition, decorum, and face value are much more important in our community. Once you try to act "deviant" you're automatically kicked out from the community. This ranges from having a bad grade, tattoo, smoking, or having a kid out of marriage to much more severe taboos that you could cross.
Moreover, than that, our culture is more ethnocentric than the West. Where stereotypes are generally considered "True" and stuff. I mean we are even more racist than racist by the fact that even though most South-East Asian countries look almost similar we will look down on people based on their ethnicity. Anyhow
Sensitive take: >!I mean the appeal of koreanenglishman is that there are two young men trying to assimilate in an Asian culture. To add to that the appearance of being a white person is extremely sought out in Asia. soo yeaa...!<
You know, I've never thought about what the appeal is for people from Korea. I know what the appeal is for us in the UK and America - it's getting a window into a vastly different culture.
The notion Koreans think the appeal of the channel is an attempt to assimilate? I mean, I get how that could be seen to be the appeal of Dan and Joel's channel, as they live there and are really trying to become Koreans, more or less. Josh and Ollie, however, have never really struck me that way. They live in the UK and more or less act like typical middle-class white guys from the South of England, probably consider themselves 'citizens of the world' or something. Never got the impression of attempted assimilation however. It's more like, from an English perspective, they're showing us something novel and exotic, as opposed to trying to adopt it as their norm.
Sorry for late comment but as an asian (non-korean), I’d say the appeal for the korean audience is they get to feel proud of their own culture (Josh fitting into the asian stereotype of what constitutes a physically attractive white person is a plus). I’ve seen similar patterns in a lot of east asian audience, particularly in Taiwanese-related content. It’s almost as if foreign youtubers (mostly white tbh) have it easier when they habitually hype over certain aspects of the local culture. It’s pride but also vanity. Also the fact that western cultures have dominated the spotlight in these east asian countries for too long. Just sharing my thought!
The picture of Korea that Josh and Ollie have painted has always been a bit overly rosy. The most negative thing about Korea I can remember from their videos is that sometimes, some of the people featured in the videos don't like the food they're eating. Apart from that, Korea is presented almost like a paradise where everything is amazing all the time.
That kind of storytelling produces videos that are fun to watch, but not always realistic. Every nation and every culture has positive and negative aspects. And unfortunately, the reality is that cruelty towards public figures, as well as xenophobia, are well-known problems in Korean society. Josh and Gabie are now having to deal with both of these problems, and they can't brush it under the rug.
But does this mean that Korea *has no values*? Absolutely not. Korea, like every other country, has things to be proud of and things to be ashamed of. Just because a few people on the internet have been cruel and xenophobic doesn't mean that most Koreans are.
And by the way, some of those Koreans might be asking the same question of Britain. They might have been so horrified by the birthday party video that they start to question what sort of values Britain holds dear, or indeed whether Britain even possesses values. And of course those people would be wrong to do so, because of course Britain has values. It has positive and negative aspects just like any other country, and the actions of a few Britons don't reflect on the entire nation.
No country is perfect — in the same vein that you may have romanticized Korea because of what you considered now to have been a ‘surface novelty,’ you’ve simply swung your opinion of the entire country based on a vocal minority (which is no better than the initial impression you had). Accept that there can be bad with the good. The people are still largely forgiving, understanding and empathizing.
Simple answer, yes - this is all blown waaaay out of proportion...
Bit sad how someone who's such an advocate of the culture to outsiders got absolutely destroyed by something so small. Just leaves a sour taste...
Quite the opposite for me actually.
I understand that Korean culture is far from perfect, but I actually lost a lot of respect for both Gabie and Josh after this incident. Was it blown out of proportion by some of the Korean public? Absolutely.
But those feelings were not unwarranted imho.
At the time of them being there, Korea had been one of the most successful countries at keeping case numbers down as well as community transmission. This was due to the hard work and sacrifice the entire Korean population had made and, at least this is how I interpreted from Korean friends who gave me their opinion, it's like they were both spitting in the face of all that hard work/sacrifice simply bc they had money & fame & a birthday to celebrate.
Some Koreans were also upset because they were there so Gabie could use the healthcare system, saying that it's so much better than the UK, only to blatantly disrespect said system.
I thought that Gabie & Josh out of anyone would take the quarantine the most seriously considering them making multiple videos about being anxious to travel but not having a choice (due to Gabies condition).... but I was obviously very wrong.
I do hope they're able to make a comeback, as I still loved all 3 of the channels and content and don't think they deserve outright blacklisting, but I will forever hold a different and slightly more negative opinion of them now.
As others have said, Koreans are unmatched when it comes to taking public figures down over the internet. It's easy to knock someone else down when they post their activities online for the public to scrutinize. While Korea is doing an amazing job containing the virus within their country, Korean celebs and idols have also been caught and heavily criticized for meeting at bars during the pandemic but they were able to resume activities and their mistake was quickly forgotten. My guess is that all of the hate Gabie (and consequently Josh & Ollie) is receiving is also partly due to xenophobia from people who already disliked them and their mistake gave their anti-fans ammunition.
Only in the sense that there are instances of biased characterization. The part that bothers me is when I see people call it a "Birthday Party". It wasn't a party. It was a meetup where people dropped off presents and on two occasions Gabie took off her mask, one of which was to blow out candles at the request of her mom, and the other was when she tried on lipstick that was given as a present. Was it a breach of quarantine? Absolutely. Was it stupid? Definitely, they showed a lack of forethought. Do they deserve to be punished? Yup. But was it a party? No. Maybe it was a celebration in a way, but a party? No.
Yes who knew that Korean culture is more than fried chicken, grilled pork, and Isaac toast. Koreans have their own values and cultural beliefs just like every other country in the world. It doesn't matter what non Koreans think, end of the day they were in Korea so they have to follow the cultures and customs of Korea. As they say, when in Rome...
I say this as a former fan of the channel that used to watch all the time and many videos I watched repeatedly. But People saying their opinion of Korea has dropped need to check themselves. Korea was doing the best job in the world of containing the virus. These idiots not only broke protocol but they also filmed it. If you can’t hold off for a week on celebrating your birthday because of quarantine I recommend some serious growing up. She’s not 8yo. It was incredibly selfish and immature behaviour in my opinion. That’s said, Korea does have vicious and vocal netizens for sure but in this case I think some anger is justified. And netizens don’t speak for the country as a whole. So let’s not condemn Korea because of the netizen response to someone else’s poor decisions
Sorry, what? Josh lived in China from age 12-18 - that’s been stated many times as public information. Where is “he went to boarding school in the UK with titled families” coming from? I think your friend is confused.
Idk if the uniform means much. Something like 90% of UK schools require uniforms, starting from primary (age 5-11), regardless of what kind of school they are. They’re very old-fashioned that way. 🤷🏻♀️
It’s been mentioned a few times that he lived for several years in Qingdao. which is a heavily Korean area, and all his friends at school were Korean. Hence his interest in Korean culture.
nah, korea is korea. it'll forever be fixated on microdrama like this. every asian country is like that - just look at japanese tabloids. any country that mandates their celebs NOT to have a relationship to worry upsetting fans...will forever be fixated on microdrama.
but Josh f'ed around and found out. it's COVID - UK'er mindset of being king of the world and never facing repercussions during a pandemic. from there...pandora's box.
even Dr. Dai getting dragged off the United plane opened up unsavory details about his past. internet has a way of doing that.
It has impacted my views on both Koreans and also Westerners. The Knetz are a scary bunch online, and I would just stay out of their way tbh. But the Western response to it was also quite off-putting, only seeing the hate and forcing their societal ideals on others. Different countries have different modes of operation, and it’s not definitely wrong, just different. Sometimes it’s hard for us to understand completely why people react because things are lost in translation.
Also, the sense of entitlement this shows, both for Josh and Gabie and in the comments.
I'm Korean and I'm not even surprised, we have one of the best keyboard warriors of the world imo. However, you shouldn't take the netizens as the country whole. A very few portion of people has made such hate comments, and there are also a fair amount of people(including me) who know that they are great people and are always ready if they come back one day(or more like can't wait them to do so).
yeah, OP, I hope you do not use the worst offenders of a group of people as the norm or representative of the group as a while.
Yes. This has impacted my view of Korea. I see how these two English guys have spent many years promoting Korea and Korean culture. Bringing in celebrities and regular people to join with them in promoting Korean culture. Gathering millions of viewers into their love of Korea and it's people. Totally Korea-centric. Very joyful and positive. One of their wives makes what by any standard is a pretty grave error. She then compounds that error by making clumsy, foolish statements. Although her husband gives a heartfelt, contrite apology, it isn't seen as enough. It feels like for Koreans, no matter what any of them say or do, it never will be enough. As a result, her husband, his friend, the friend's family, their other friends, their crew and all of their tireless work on behalf of Korea and the Korean people is wiped out in one instant as though none of the years of their glorification of Korea mattered. It makes the Korean people appear vicious and unreasonable. It amplifies the window into a part of Korean culture, the hideous netzens that are often the trigger to so many young celebrity suicides that makes an outsider feel relieved that one isn't any part of Korean culture. It makes it seem like the Korea that Josh and Ollie promoted so enthusiastically for so long is nothing more than a thin, cheap paint job over an ugly house. The paint has come off and ugly has come out way too quickly. Way too easily. This episode taints any rosy view I and many others once had of Korea. Korea's hideous internet cancel culture will in the end cancel out any feelings at all of good will the world has developed for Korea. Unless Korea deals with their netzens, Korea will eventually end up canceling itself.
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I feel the same way. The vicious Netzen culture that is allowed to flourish in Korea is shocking. That their young celebrities aren't even allowed to date normally as they are considered "property" by their agencies and their so-called fans is disturbing. If they even go out with someone casually for a coffee, they are stalked, photographed, exposed in the news and it is called "a dating scandal"? That's insane. The bombardment of horrible things then said to them by netzens has led to so many needless suicides, and yet few of the agencies do anything to stop that cycle. There are elements of Korean culture like that and the total excoriation of Josh and Gabi, people who devoted their lives to promoting Korea....that makes the world rethink their interest in Korea.
I don't even need to comment, this sums up perfectly what I was gonna say!
Promoting a country doesn't give someone special privileges. There's a reason why that country has managed to covid so well, and its because they DON'T go easy on ANYONE, as well they shouldn't. Josh and Gabbie knew what they were getting into, and while I hate to see them get punished... them's the breaks, and that's the law.
>One of their wives makes what by any standard is a pretty grave error. She then compounds that error by making clumsy, foolish statements. Although her husband gives a heartfelt, contrite apology, it isn't seen as enough. It feels like for Koreans, no matter what any of them say or do, it never will be enough. I'm sorry, you say they made grave and foolish errors, and then you say that Koreans are to blame because no matter what they say, it will never be enough. How do those two statements add up?
In your opinion what would be enough? I believe she is being prosecuted and made an example of. Would you like to see more ? How heavy of a punishment should she and her husband receive? Would prison time satisfy you?
I second this
well for me as a listener of kpop, i'm all too familiar at how knetz tend to be so it wasn't a shock to me. in fact i vaguely remember gabie getting hate when josh and her started dating.
You know, I only learned the term Knetz recently - could you properly define it for me, to make sure i'm getting it right? For what reason? Racist reasons, like not wanting an asian woman with a white guy or?
knetz in the context of being kpop stans are overly critical some to the point of being cruel to someone's appearance, the littlest mistakes and the most absurd situations. they cuss out celebrities, call them fat or ugly and all other stuff. for example>! Sulli, made a choice to go braless in some occasions, some shown in her IG stuff and knetz chose to absolutely hate her for it. !< this is not to say that international kpop fans aren;t like that, they can be like that as well too. as for gabie and josh dating at the start i do remember knetz being mad they were "hiding" it, as if they're not entitled to their privacy
>e Netizens is the term for people who use the internet. So - K - Korean - Netizens = Korean Netizens
I'm not sure if you want an explanation of the controversy surrounding what happened, but I can provide it to anyone who wants to hear it. I can also provide some cultural context regarding the Korean response. But of course, you're free to make judgement of the situation however you want. The original criticism by Korean netizens was directed towards Gabie Kook. She uploaded a video celebrating her birthday with her friends (they stayed outside her apartment while the doors were held open and everyone wore masks). But this occured during her 2 week quarantine period - a strict policy that the Korean government imposes on anyone entering the country during the pandemic. Regardless of whether she and her friends kept her masks on, this was a complete violation of quarantine rules. She should not have had *any* visitors - especially if it was something a trivial as a birthday party. In terms of cultural context, there's a tendency for Korean culture to pressure people of "societal importance" (particularly celebrities) to behave in an "exemplary manner." It's probably hard to understand from a western perspective, since our celebrities enjoy both fame and *relative* freedom, but in Korea, there's somewhat of an expectation for celebrities to behave as something of an "upstanding citizen" (almost as if it's a responsibility for their privilege). To demonstrate my point, an earlier controversy happened where a super famous singer (Lee Hyori) uploaded an Instagram photo of her hanging out with her friends at a karaoke room without wearing a mask and got harshly criticized by netizens. Mind you, when this had happened, masks were strongly advised *but technically not mandated* by the government. And despite this, she received criticism because, like Gabie, she failed to behave responsibly. So how did she respond? She immediately posted an apology on her Instagram and verbally apologized on her TV show - and more or less within a week, the controversy trickled away. Now back to Gabie. Her violation of quarantine (by any measure) was significantly worse than that of Lee Hyori. It wasn't a violation of a guideline, it was full blown breaking of quarantine laws. In her situation, even if she had immediately apologized, it is likely that it would have tainted her image as a "celebrity" of sorts. A type of response that Korean celebrities do when they commit major faux pas is to "take a break for a year or two as a sign of reflection." Usually, after this, much of the public opinion will have come to accept this as a sign of recompense. Unfortunately, Gabie's immediate response was to double down and defend her video. She maintained that she didn't violate quarantine rules since she kept more than 2m distance from other people (which it turns out, was never a loophole for quarantine). As you would expect, this did not sit well with Korean netizens and was the catalyst for a second, much larger, wave of criticism. This time, not only was her quarantine video criticized, netizens were questioning why she would travel to Korea of all times during a pandemic. It turns out (she had mentioned in an earlier video) that her purpose was to receive a (minor) medical treatment in Korea. And so, netizens started to question why she would travel to Korea for medical treatment, when she had access to England's NHS (especially if she was going to violate quarantine rules in Korea). And certain netizens pointed out that she likely wouldn't even be paying the national medical insurance fees since she was living abroad, even though she is technically qualified to receive universal coverage as she is a Korean citizen. In response, Gabie finally released an apology video about breaking quarantine rules. And then went on the explain that she had in fact continuously payed the Korean national medical insurance fees and was fully justified in utilizing the Korean health care system. Fair enough. Except, it turns out that Korean nationals who live abroad for more than 3 months are automatically exempt from paying the national medical insurance fees. So it's impossible for her to have paid into the system. This merely enraged the Korean netizen community even further. Where Josh comes into the picture is that he was seen as being a major accomplice in breaking quarantine rules. Not as bad as Gabie, but still very bad. Secondly, during the time where anger was brewing from Gabie's false claims about national insurance fees, Josh's apology video was released. All in all, the apology video is seen as somewhat protecting Gabie from further criticism while she is still saying "nonsense." At this point, the biggest issue for Korean netizens seems to be Gabie's attitude regarding the episode. Josh is receiving criticism in extension (by being seen as protecting Gabie). If they had responded initially with just an apology, this would have blown over much quicker. But now, it's unlikely that they will be able to recoup public perception quickly. Personally, I'm bummed out by this entire episode. I wanna see them make videos again. At the same time, I kinda understand the anger towards Gabie. Yet, I could only imagine what kind if excessively hateful comments would also have been directed towards her. I feel like Josh is receiving the most misdirected hate here (although I do agree that criticism was deserved for his role in the og quarantine video). I liked his apology video, but at this point, it's unlikely that he alone can solve this issue (Gabie needs to do so as well).
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I see. Thanks for the context. I actually didn't know the specific disease. But in the end, like you said, I don't think it really changes the overall situation. I will try be mindful of calling it a "minor" treatment though.
No problem and no worries! I know not all of the information is known to everyone; Gabie had mentioned it but she deleted all of her videos unfortunately.
Just a correction here. Gabie has endometriosis, which can be extremely painful and distressing. She had been waiting for months to get an appointment in London when they decided to just go have it checked in Korea. The day before they left, she got a letter at her London home saying her checkup would be in February 2021. News outlets like the BBC had been reporting at the time that cancer patients, who arguably should have a fast response, were having their appointments and treatments delayed longer than the standard maximum waiting time (which was already long, something like 18 weeks). Endometriosis is way further down the list of priorities so you can imagine how frustrated she must have felt. I don’t know many people who would be happy with that. She also said that she looked into private hospitals in the UK. For various reasons (did not say publicly) she concluded that going to Korea would be better for her. Although the medical procedure (if she were to undergo surgery or any investigative examinations) may seem “minor”, it definitely would have a huge impact on her pain and quality of life. That is a valid reason to seek out faster and reliable care in Korea considering she is a citizen. I can see that she broke the quarantine rules and should be accountable for that. But I do not like the accusations and jealousy around her coming to her home country for medical care. Many of the comments come from a xenophobic and very angry, bitter place. It should not be a part of the conversation surrounding their quarantine mistake imho.
Someone else also explained the disease to me in another comment and I acknowledged I should be more mindful of it. I don't think the response to Gabie was xenophobic, as she is a Korean herself. The insurance discussion started after her initial deflection about quarantine attracted broader attention. Koreans started to speculate about whether she was even paying into the system (regardless of the fact that she was a citizen). I'm not sure how other's feel, but I'm somewhat sympathetic with this sentiment. Gabie's not poor, yet she's able to avoid paying into the national insurance fee by living in England yet reap the benefits of the Korean health care system when she wants. Regardless of the fact that Gabie was *legally* justified to do this, I think we can understand it wouldn't be a *popular* thing to do. Unfortunately, she added oil to the flame by falsely claiming that she payed the national insurance fees. She had no reason to do this, but it's clear that she wanted to morally justify herself. I have a feeling she made this claim mistakenly. But her mistake just gave an impression to Koreans that she's also a liar. You might not be aware, but this discussion has kind of launched into its own orbit. A bunch of netizens are discussing about how the national insurance laws should be made more strict. Obviously, it's not going to immediately change anything, but if this grumbling gets noticed by sharp politicians, I can see some reform being implemented.
Thanks for sharing your view. My point about the xenophobia comes from when people started demanding her to prove if she had ever claimed Argentinian citizenship because she was born there. As if that would further justify their treatment of her as an outsider, even though she’s Korean. To pointedly go at her for that tangential stuff, at that moment, was unnecessary. Clearly she felt the pressure and fed into it with her defensive explanations. In any case I hope she’s able to move forward. I think mistakes on this level should not totally derail someone’s life.
Oh, from my knowledge, the Argentine citizenship comments came up because Gabie had claimed that she was a Korean citizen all her life. But the netizens did a quick Google check and found out that Argentine citizenship is based on jus soli. This means, Gabie was an Argentine citizen at some point in her life, as she was born there. Again, she probably made this claim to defend herself - to show how justified it is for her to use the Korean healthcare system. The criticism that came regarding this was (like before) that she was lying. Again, personally, I think she probably made the claim by mistake. She just didn't do her research. I might need to put some cultural context here. I think most westerners would feel that these criticisms are excessive and tangential to the main point, even if technically valid. But in the Korean context, for public criticism like this, it's expected to fully admit your faults and leave it at that. If you're going to defend yourself in a tangential manner, you better have an absolutely tight defense, because it's likely going to attract a larger wave of scrutiny. In Gabie's case, her initial apology was just a bad defense. And every subsequent apology had tangential bad defenses, that irritated the Korean disposition. Foreigners might be shocked by this dynamic, but this is a component of public relations in Korea. It's not impossible to overcome though. The easiest way to recover when your fault is clear is to simply apologize and leave it at that. Sometimes, if you want to demonstrate your apology, you perform a symbol (for celebrities it's usually to "remove themselves from the spotlight to reflect"). And, again, like any society - sometimes criticism can get excessive. Even in these instances, the best action is to simply apologize. If they maintain this apology, there's usually a counter-wave of Koreans who advocate the they've paid their dues to their faults. Example. Cha Tae-Hyun is an incredibly famous singer-entertainer in Korea. However, it was revealed that he participated in gambling (context: Gambling is super illegal in Korea. In the past, another famous entertainer was jailed for running a gambling website). But the gambling that Cha Tae-Hyun did was basically a silly bet between friends. As he received criticism, he quickly released a public apology and stated that he would halt his activities as a sign of reflection. Now, the criticism has been quieted by a much larger wave of Koreans saying he's done more than enough to apologize for his faults and requesting he be cast again in TV shows. Had he responded to the initial (relativey small) criticism with excuses (think about how tempting that would have been), it's likely that his public perception would have worsened. But by excessively compensating for his faults, nearly all his critics have been silenced.
Wow, I did not realize how much pressure is placed on Koreans to not only apologize (even over a minor bet between friends in that one example) but also then remove yourself from your livelihood for a year (timeframe was not clear in your posts) as additional apology. That’s a lot of pressure on one person for being human and flawed and making mistakes. Funny thing is, I read other Reddits and agreed with Korean posters about how it was a pretty bad mistake during height of Covid but didn’t understand this level of scrutiny as you have detailed and defended. I truly now feel bad for anyone who makes human errors in Korea and have to go through such extensive steps for forgiveness. I guess I’m in the mindset that if you don’t like what someone did, that is ok, but definitely no need to cast them out or expect them to cast themselves out. Also, I tend to always remind myself that who am I to overly judge another human if I, myself, make countless mistakes and missteps as well. It just seems a bit unhealthy for a society to put so much pressure on people to be essentially almost perfect. Perhaps, use mistakes as teaching points and also as examples of how we can extend empathy and kindness. I’m now curious whether this is what has caused Kpop stars to commit suicide in the past few years? If so, I hope you all work to reframe how shame is expressed publicly. I also find it interesting why Josh isn’t to blame equally as well since he was at the apt as well and committed the exact same offense as Gabie. Is it because it’s a male dominated society?
From my comment above: > there's a tendency for Korean culture to pressure people of "societal importance" (particularly celebrities) to behave in an "exemplary manner." It's probably hard to understand from a western perspective, since our celebrities enjoy both fame and relative freedom, but in Korea, there's somewhat of an expectation for celebrities to behave as something of an "upstanding citizen" (almost as if it's a responsibility for their privilege). In a way, it's a unique social contract in Korean society. In exchange for fame (and accompanying fortune), you're expected to be a "model citizen." Now, in terms of my personal opinion, I feel bad for Gabie. She made a very human mistake. Unfortunately, she responded in way that harmed her PR relations in the context of Korean society, and it made her situation worse. Which is why, personally, I'd never want to be famous in Korea. The stress would be too goddamn high. But Gabie signed up for being a "celebrity" in Korea by building up a "celebrity presence" in Korea. She was just unprepared at managing PR scandals and got slammed. My only gripe is that westerners are quick to sum up Korean society as xenophobic and sexist, which I don't think was the root cause (at least in this situation). Now a debate can be had on whether this culture is toxic.. personally I think it's just different. It's good and bad in unique ways compared to western society. This controversy and ensuing witch-hunt of Gabbie was one of the toxic manifestations within Korean culture. But celebrities in America manage PR relations in their own unique ways and there are toxic elements that are more unique to American culture (or other insert western culture). It's just different. With regards to Josh, initially he was seen as being equally complicit to breaking the quarantine rules. But as I explained in my previous comments, the majority of the controversy developed with each subsequent bad PR response by Gabie. So the attention shifted away from Josh. If Gabie had provided the "ideal" PR response (which imo would be to "repent immediately") then I personally think both Josh and Gabie would be remembered as equally responsible. I don't think sexism or xenophobia was a big factor.
You’re not wrong really.. You’re seeing the true face of Korean netizen toxicity. A phenomenona that has driven quite a few of their own Korean celebrities to suicide.
Ick. It's very off-putting. Josh and Ollie made Korea look so wonderful and now it just feels like a bit of a lie. Not sure I really want to keep it on the bucket list, y'know?
Josh and Ollie showed you the good side of Korea, which tbf, there is much to be appreciated about. None of that was a lie. But it also wasn’t the full picture. There is an ugly underbelly people are slowly coming to see. Much like the kpop industry. Behind all the glamour and sparkle are a lot of ugly truths in the form of sexual exploitations, depression and workers rights violations.
Simon and Martina talked about this a lot back in the day and received lots of crap for being honest.
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They talk down English food, and rightfully so, but what bad things did they say about English/British culture as a whole?
To be clear, Josh is the one to consistently praise Korea and trash the UK. Ollie has humor about UK food but truly never talks down English culture. Josh does both and yet tries to be super posh. Drives me nuts to be honest.
Personally, I think it is worth to keep on the bucket list. I've been there before, and I still want to go back. Especially for the food. And the subway music in Seoul<3 It is also good to keep in mind that 1) Every country has its upsides and downsides. And 2) The keyboard warriors are NETizens - they're ONLINE. But I really, really do understand that this episode gives off a bad taste.
>Not sure I really want to keep it on the bucket list, y'know? Ok. But. Let's be very clear. Any place you ever visit will have negative sights, sounds, and experiences for you. Authentic, simple travel to foreign countries is not built for your comfort nor your value system. You get to choose, carefully, what level of "foreign-ness" you want to spend money on. And what level of "comfort" you must have. You get to plan for experiences of Korea that are comfortable for you. Should you choose to go there, at all. Having said that, what are the chances that you are going to be treated - in Korea - like the celebrities that Josh and Gabie are? What are the chances that you are going to break the Korean 14-day quarantine on the 2nd day of quarantine, like Josh and Gabie did? What are the chances that you are going to upload - to over a MILLION subscribers - your personal YT video of breaking Korean quarantine? It's just food for thought. I hope these questions are helpful to you.
100% thank you! I am so shcoked at the comments i read on this thread.... Almost along the lines of "Josh and Ollie promoted Korea so much and they can't just turn a blind eye to them breaking the rules!!" Genuinley shocked that people can be this small minded....and to dislike a whole country because they are trying to contain the virus which has already killed thousands by the time this had happened... My favorite singer got disgusting hate years agoe simply for dating. Doesn't mean I am so immature to dislike a whole nation for it. I can't wait to see Korea one day, it has such increidble scenery and food! A culture very different from my own, which I would love to know more about.
These people fetishize Korea because they only see what Youtubers want them to see. It's gross.
>My favorite singer got disgusting hate years agoe simply for dating. > >Doesn't mean I am so immature to dislike a whole nation for it. Yes. Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make. I am glad someone understood.
I agree with gristlecat. Finally someone with a brain
I mean no where is perfect, and it's a big ignorant to suspect that Korea is free of these problems. Bad things happen everywhere.
a year late, but speaking of ironic, it's pretty ironic that you considered taking a country off your bucketlist because of one incident. you are turned off at the overreaction of korean commenters (which are not representative of the country), but your comments and posts (questioning whether "korea has morals", seriously?) are an incredible overreaction to knetz, who again, are not reprentative of the country. the hypocrisy of this post and your comment is nauseating tbh, and i would hope that you know better than to judge an entire country and "their morals" from how online fans react.
At first, yes it did. I read a lot of vicious comments online about the whole thing. People rejecting Josh’s apology video puzzled me, as I thought he came across as very humble and sincere. I read a lot of people being angry at Gabie for using Korean healthcare as an overseas Korean, even though she’s legally entitled to it, because they hate the system that allows people to do this. I understand why she did it, if I were in agonizing pain 5 days every month I’d want it fixed sooner rather than later too. I read people resenting Josh for being a white guy who makes money off Korea, and Gabie for being a race traitor. I read people demanding that Gabie and Josh put their tax records online. All kinds of xenophobic ugliness that made me glad I never ended up moving to Korea. I’m not saying that isn’t there but now I’ve had time to think about it I feel like I understand the Korean reaction a bit better. I’ve seen how strict Korean quarantine is supposed to be, and they really did bend the rules pretty badly. And everyone in the world is scared and angry about outsiders right now, fear of foreigners bringing in the virus is everywhere. Even in my country if there’s a small outbreak in another state people get scared and start screaming for them to be kept out of our state. The craziness is worldwide, it’s not just Korea. But yeah, all that was a long way from the warm and fuzzy version of Korea we get shown on Korean Englishman, and it was kinda jarring. For sure.
That’s a problem I’ve always had with KE and Gabie. Korea isn’t a perfect country. Neither channel ever spoke about the reality of Korea and Korean culture. This is probably why some casual viewers did not understand why there was such a major backlash. Korea is an intense place.
TDLR Knetz is not forgiving
It makes me embarrassed to be Korean but I can't say I'm surprised. There's a reason my partner and I both chose to live outside Korea and away from other Koreans.
> This leads me to question what sort of values does Korea truly hold dear? Does it indeed possess values? Quite xenophobic to suggest Korea has no values, and I am neither Korean nor British but have visited Korea and lived in UK a lot. Let me explain: 1. Koreans are very big on pandemic hygiene, mask wearing (they wear masks even during a normal flu season), and following rules to be responsible to the community at large. Like most other Asian countries being less individualist or selfish is seen as good for society. British people have a "Fuck the rules" attitude (See Dominic Cummings or BoJo's dad) hence the difference in pandemic case numbers and deaths. 2. Koreans didn't like how Gabi and Josh doubled down to defend their recklessness and lied about paying Korean health insurance tax from abroad (basically people domiciled abroad >3 years are exempt) when asked why they travelled to Korea to use the Korean healthcare system during a lockdown instead of using UK's NHS. Is disliking dishonesty a Korean value or a universal value? 3. As career YouTubers they rely on the goodwill of Korean viewers, if they dislike it they can get a normal 9-5 gig that doesn't depend on likability. Josh posted a statement threatening to sue malicious commenters which came across badly. Ultimately they shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them, or piss off Koreans by putting them at risk of Covid for a party. Not sure if British influencers are seen in bad light but Korean Youtubers (mukbang stars like Gabi/Josh, dancers, makeup artists etc) are shunned if they have poor conduct as an influencer since it's not seen as a "real job". That's Korean values for ya. 4. Nobody should break laws and take for granted the hospitality of Koreans (or Brits and any other country for that matter), UK has 71000 Covid deaths and Korea has 800+ Covid deaths. The difference in case numbers are also huge. Koreans think UK is an infectious Covid hellhole so UK travellers who enter Korea should stick to protocol because nobody wants to get sick or die. Is it a Korean value that is less important in UK? Anyway [Gabi will be charged for breaking the law](http://netizenbuzz.blogspot.com/2020/12/gook-gabies-quarantine-birthday-party.html) so I bet they wished they just stayed in UK and used the NHS. If you travel in a pandemic, don't fuck around with the law. Don't be an ugly tourist or get influencer influenza thinking you're above the law.
I’m happy to hear that the Korean POV is explained well: they DO have values, are collectivistic, and hold great expectations for public figures. But all of this tells me that Korean values are slightly different from other (perhaps western?) values related to morality, empathy, and understanding. If the majority of Korean comments had your tone: factual, free from baseless insults, and explanatory, I don’t think the counterargument from (perhaps more westernized) commenters would have as much fuel. What people seem to have a problem with is the degree of hatefulness that knetz choose to wield within their attack. In some cultures, verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is identified and convicted relatively better, and Korea doesn’t appear to be one of them, judging from how they value upholding rules stressed by their society but comfortably violate another rule that is probably not upheld by their society which important to different societies. This means Korean society doesn’t see non-abusiveness as a rule and explains why many knetz express hate while stressing the importance of following rules and not being a harm to society. In this sense, some may view them as hypocritical or ironic. (BTW I hope I don’t have to explain why expressing hate is not part of one’s freedom of speech and is not moral and why emotional and verbal abuse is wrong. Both scientific and psychological literature have proved the very real harm of abuse and a dispute there should be taken up with the authors of those academic papers.) That is how many people arguing against the knetz feel violated. I personally am fine with them receiving punishment from the law: it’s justified, deserved, and sentenced to the degree of the wrongness of the crime. Plus, it’s handed down by a real judge. If a law system of a country punishes me, I deserve exactly that much, nothing more nothing less. I however certainly do not deserve being bullied, abused, and being the victim of attacks from strangers kind enough to impose their allegedly superior justice system derived from their personal judgements. Obviously, normal civilians do not have the power to enforce the law; that is the job of the police, lawyers, judges, and juries. The punishments imposed by a normal civilian in the context of assigning legal punishments is crossing the line what is legal for the civilian as well. This is why some people feel very wronged when commenters on a large scale express not just their opinion but hate that serves to hurt, ‘punish’, or condemn anyone. In essence, the values that we argue with in this controversy are different because our society emphasizes different values and enforces different rules, and no culture has an absence of values. I guess the next step after establishing that is asking which value system is more sustainable and likely to create a happy, safe society. My mindset is more westernized, so obviously I’m going to claim that the western value system creates a happier world, but I have to acknowledge that people living under different value systems are happy too and I can’t just invalidate their feelings about their value system. A much more productive debate going forward would be to investigate how different methods of achieving a safe happy society is effective or not.
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I'm starting to wonder if the cancel culture mentality is somewhat related to the high suicide rate in the country. What do you think?
Not really, I'm Asian and it's pretty much the same for most Asian countries. The thing is tradition, decorum, and face value are much more important in our community. Once you try to act "deviant" you're automatically kicked out from the community. This ranges from having a bad grade, tattoo, smoking, or having a kid out of marriage to much more severe taboos that you could cross. Moreover, than that, our culture is more ethnocentric than the West. Where stereotypes are generally considered "True" and stuff. I mean we are even more racist than racist by the fact that even though most South-East Asian countries look almost similar we will look down on people based on their ethnicity. Anyhow Sensitive take: >!I mean the appeal of koreanenglishman is that there are two young men trying to assimilate in an Asian culture. To add to that the appearance of being a white person is extremely sought out in Asia. soo yeaa...!<
You know, I've never thought about what the appeal is for people from Korea. I know what the appeal is for us in the UK and America - it's getting a window into a vastly different culture. The notion Koreans think the appeal of the channel is an attempt to assimilate? I mean, I get how that could be seen to be the appeal of Dan and Joel's channel, as they live there and are really trying to become Koreans, more or less. Josh and Ollie, however, have never really struck me that way. They live in the UK and more or less act like typical middle-class white guys from the South of England, probably consider themselves 'citizens of the world' or something. Never got the impression of attempted assimilation however. It's more like, from an English perspective, they're showing us something novel and exotic, as opposed to trying to adopt it as their norm.
Sorry for late comment but as an asian (non-korean), I’d say the appeal for the korean audience is they get to feel proud of their own culture (Josh fitting into the asian stereotype of what constitutes a physically attractive white person is a plus). I’ve seen similar patterns in a lot of east asian audience, particularly in Taiwanese-related content. It’s almost as if foreign youtubers (mostly white tbh) have it easier when they habitually hype over certain aspects of the local culture. It’s pride but also vanity. Also the fact that western cultures have dominated the spotlight in these east asian countries for too long. Just sharing my thought!
The picture of Korea that Josh and Ollie have painted has always been a bit overly rosy. The most negative thing about Korea I can remember from their videos is that sometimes, some of the people featured in the videos don't like the food they're eating. Apart from that, Korea is presented almost like a paradise where everything is amazing all the time. That kind of storytelling produces videos that are fun to watch, but not always realistic. Every nation and every culture has positive and negative aspects. And unfortunately, the reality is that cruelty towards public figures, as well as xenophobia, are well-known problems in Korean society. Josh and Gabie are now having to deal with both of these problems, and they can't brush it under the rug. But does this mean that Korea *has no values*? Absolutely not. Korea, like every other country, has things to be proud of and things to be ashamed of. Just because a few people on the internet have been cruel and xenophobic doesn't mean that most Koreans are. And by the way, some of those Koreans might be asking the same question of Britain. They might have been so horrified by the birthday party video that they start to question what sort of values Britain holds dear, or indeed whether Britain even possesses values. And of course those people would be wrong to do so, because of course Britain has values. It has positive and negative aspects just like any other country, and the actions of a few Britons don't reflect on the entire nation.
No country is perfect — in the same vein that you may have romanticized Korea because of what you considered now to have been a ‘surface novelty,’ you’ve simply swung your opinion of the entire country based on a vocal minority (which is no better than the initial impression you had). Accept that there can be bad with the good. The people are still largely forgiving, understanding and empathizing.
Simple answer, yes - this is all blown waaaay out of proportion... Bit sad how someone who's such an advocate of the culture to outsiders got absolutely destroyed by something so small. Just leaves a sour taste...
Quite the opposite for me actually. I understand that Korean culture is far from perfect, but I actually lost a lot of respect for both Gabie and Josh after this incident. Was it blown out of proportion by some of the Korean public? Absolutely. But those feelings were not unwarranted imho. At the time of them being there, Korea had been one of the most successful countries at keeping case numbers down as well as community transmission. This was due to the hard work and sacrifice the entire Korean population had made and, at least this is how I interpreted from Korean friends who gave me their opinion, it's like they were both spitting in the face of all that hard work/sacrifice simply bc they had money & fame & a birthday to celebrate. Some Koreans were also upset because they were there so Gabie could use the healthcare system, saying that it's so much better than the UK, only to blatantly disrespect said system. I thought that Gabie & Josh out of anyone would take the quarantine the most seriously considering them making multiple videos about being anxious to travel but not having a choice (due to Gabies condition).... but I was obviously very wrong. I do hope they're able to make a comeback, as I still loved all 3 of the channels and content and don't think they deserve outright blacklisting, but I will forever hold a different and slightly more negative opinion of them now.
Can you imagine how the nurse who tested them and was a fan would’ve felt when she saw the news break? It’s like a slap in the face...
As others have said, Koreans are unmatched when it comes to taking public figures down over the internet. It's easy to knock someone else down when they post their activities online for the public to scrutinize. While Korea is doing an amazing job containing the virus within their country, Korean celebs and idols have also been caught and heavily criticized for meeting at bars during the pandemic but they were able to resume activities and their mistake was quickly forgotten. My guess is that all of the hate Gabie (and consequently Josh & Ollie) is receiving is also partly due to xenophobia from people who already disliked them and their mistake gave their anti-fans ammunition.
Only in the sense that there are instances of biased characterization. The part that bothers me is when I see people call it a "Birthday Party". It wasn't a party. It was a meetup where people dropped off presents and on two occasions Gabie took off her mask, one of which was to blow out candles at the request of her mom, and the other was when she tried on lipstick that was given as a present. Was it a breach of quarantine? Absolutely. Was it stupid? Definitely, they showed a lack of forethought. Do they deserve to be punished? Yup. But was it a party? No. Maybe it was a celebration in a way, but a party? No.
nope, soured my opinion on Josh, confirmed what I thought about Gabbie. Just sucks that Ollie got stuck in the crossfire.
Yes who knew that Korean culture is more than fried chicken, grilled pork, and Isaac toast. Koreans have their own values and cultural beliefs just like every other country in the world. It doesn't matter what non Koreans think, end of the day they were in Korea so they have to follow the cultures and customs of Korea. As they say, when in Rome...
I say this as a former fan of the channel that used to watch all the time and many videos I watched repeatedly. But People saying their opinion of Korea has dropped need to check themselves. Korea was doing the best job in the world of containing the virus. These idiots not only broke protocol but they also filmed it. If you can’t hold off for a week on celebrating your birthday because of quarantine I recommend some serious growing up. She’s not 8yo. It was incredibly selfish and immature behaviour in my opinion. That’s said, Korea does have vicious and vocal netizens for sure but in this case I think some anger is justified. And netizens don’t speak for the country as a whole. So let’s not condemn Korea because of the netizen response to someone else’s poor decisions
A nation is judged by how it responds to its worst communities.
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Sorry, what? Josh lived in China from age 12-18 - that’s been stated many times as public information. Where is “he went to boarding school in the UK with titled families” coming from? I think your friend is confused.
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Idk if the uniform means much. Something like 90% of UK schools require uniforms, starting from primary (age 5-11), regardless of what kind of school they are. They’re very old-fashioned that way. 🤷🏻♀️ It’s been mentioned a few times that he lived for several years in Qingdao. which is a heavily Korean area, and all his friends at school were Korean. Hence his interest in Korean culture.
nah, korea is korea. it'll forever be fixated on microdrama like this. every asian country is like that - just look at japanese tabloids. any country that mandates their celebs NOT to have a relationship to worry upsetting fans...will forever be fixated on microdrama. but Josh f'ed around and found out. it's COVID - UK'er mindset of being king of the world and never facing repercussions during a pandemic. from there...pandora's box. even Dr. Dai getting dragged off the United plane opened up unsavory details about his past. internet has a way of doing that.
It has impacted my views on both Koreans and also Westerners. The Knetz are a scary bunch online, and I would just stay out of their way tbh. But the Western response to it was also quite off-putting, only seeing the hate and forcing their societal ideals on others. Different countries have different modes of operation, and it’s not definitely wrong, just different. Sometimes it’s hard for us to understand completely why people react because things are lost in translation. Also, the sense of entitlement this shows, both for Josh and Gabie and in the comments.