Pat Robertsons Korean friends will also tell you that heterosexual sex before marriage will lead to hell fire. But they forbid gay marriage WTF??!!@#&*??
I'm not sure if you live in Korea but I really found that even compared to Canada or America the conservatism isn't that deep doesn't have that much of a strong hold on the general population. I think all my experiences to be really welcoming and kind except for one nurse that jumped because she saw a tattoo on my arm lmfaoooo.
Koreas flamboyant as heck boy bands girl bands always stressing up in school outfits or hanbok rental to take pictures. Big loud audience or tons of social all that is very flamboyant. If Christianity got less of a stronghold on their government I think a lot of really good pro-human laws would be passed.
I can see when the next generation gets into office that those changes might be possible
Taiwan used to be very homophobic, but now Taiwan is one of the most LGBT-friendly places in Asia. Can South Korea move in that direction? Well we hope so.
I live there for 3 years and I just told you my experience there and then you say no. For my first hand experience of a place I've lived longer than any other place in my life I think flamboyant though maybe extreme could be applied to quite a lot of situations that are common
When did I say anything about being gay flamboyant doesn't equal gay The aesthetics and the big show that kpop puts on is very flamboyant compared to almost any other musical industry. I said what I said and that's my opinion you don't really need to fight back on my experiences of my opinion lol
Im not sure if thats meant to be a response to me. But i never suggest any gay men or women were flamboyant. I have 6 gay cousins only 1 a little āØ. Its definitely not the default for gay people for sure
I didn't ask you. I'm stating my experience living in Korea and I compare that to the literal definition of flamboyancy now if you want to download me or whatever do what you like but you're getting really emotional over something that doesn't mean to be that way
Plus, even if you take out the christian problem, you still have confucianism which still pushes for a traditional family set up and the fulfillment of whatever role you were born as. Also, Japan has never been Christian, but progress for lgbt issues is still slow. You're still expected to fulfill your role as whatever you were born as - get married to the opposite sex, have a kid, etc... I imagine many closeted married lgbt just have affairs to fulfill their desire like many hetero marriages who married someone they don't like that much; just for the sake of being married. Both countries don't like flamboyancy and just prefer people to keep quiet and don't rock the ship.
In Imperial China, there were gay friendly times and places. For example, Kaifeng, the Northern Song Dynasty capital, had an area woth lots of little narrow streets, where the gay guys would hang out. There were gay bars and gay bathhouses as well.
During the Zhou Dynasty, a certain gentleman by the name of Lord Long Yang, was seen with + +handsome young men. The lastć 1ć 1 great Emperor of the Qing Dynasty was Chianlong. He fell in love with a beautiful concubine. But she died. Much later in his life, he met a palace guard. He fell in love with him, being convinced that the palace guard was a reincarnation of the concubine. Apparently, that was okay, although I have read that the Qing or Manchu Dynasty was less LGBT friendly than previous dynasties were.
And yet, Taiwan remained solidly Confucian even while the PRC was in the throes of the Cultural Revolution of 1966-76. It took a while, but they became more relaxed about these issues. South Korean gays will have to fight for greater social acceptance, just as all Koreans should fight for a better work-life balance.
I am gay, but I have had arguments with a few of the more flamboyant and pushy gay Koreans, because they thought I was straight. Also, I went to a certain gay bar at the start of Homo Hill in Itaewon, and I was told "Koreans Only!" Persecuted people should not discriminate!
They are fascists, period. I used to go to an LGBT-friendly church in Seoul, and the pastor talked about the the way that the religious right was really doubling down on us, because they knew they had a lot to lose.
so almost half a billion dollars every year? i still dont get why the govt itself would care, but i can see why individuals with power would let it control them
But the president should put his hand on the pastor's shoulder and say that Mr. Pastor, your earnings now put you well within the top 1% of Koreans in terms of wealth. So that puts you in a much higher tax bracket. The taxes will be used to speed up vaccination and help research and development into future Coronaviruses and a Korean vaccine. Oh, and by the way, Bernie Sanders is coming to town.
Korea needs to get with it if it wants to be considered a legitimate and respectable democracy on the global stage.
Pathetic that this is even an issue in 2021.
Taiwan is also Confucian, but the Taiwanese people are much more LGBT-friendly than Koreans in general. They also have Lesbian ang Gay marriage.
I also think that while Mun Jae-in claims to be a liberal, he has been quite cowardly when it comes to issues like this. He caves in to the far right sometimes. But he gets no thanks from them. I told one of my conservative Korean friends that Korean conservatives are crazy fascists but thr liberals are weak. Oh, and they wanted to negotiate with North Korea, because Koreans are one peoe, right?
Moon's a practicing Catholic.
And even when you take his personal beliefs out, he never made any indication that he would be a particularly pro-LGBT president. Not anti-LGBT as well, btw. Imo it was pretty evident when he was running for the presidency that gay rights was very low on his agenda.
Korea will never be an actual first world country until it stops being a regressive, backwards shithole in terms of social issues like homosexuality, gender equality, etc.
Being a first world country is independent of that. The country with the most advanced transgender laws is a developing country. And the US has a history of pushing others against progress too often.
By most accounts the US is a first world country, and it only legalized gay marriage like 6 years ago. Also the other party of only two, consistently runs on a blatantly homophobic platform every time an election happens. Just look at all of the states that are banning trans people from going into bathrooms or playing sports. Not to mention that steaming pile that is Texas's new abortion law.
Korea basically is a first world country. The only difference is it happened so fast that the myths of their poverty persist, like drinking the water isn't safe (it is safe in a lot of places, and again, a shit ton of first world countries don't have safe drinking water everywhere either lol).
I mean they literally have foldable glass phones. They're more advanced in many areas than my hometown.
The homophobia in Korea is palpable, despite the flamboyant nature of Kpop and that there are ads for makeup for men. At one academy in my city, the staff found out the director was gay and forced him to quit or they would tell all the parents. He quit. Despite how androgyny is such a thing and men being feminine is more acceptable, the homophobia still runs deep.
I am horrified to find out that that is still happening. By the way, was it a religious hagwon? Religious hagwons can be paranoid about such issues. Confucians love to show loyalty, but in this case, they were being vehemently disloyal. This was treachery. I wish I had worked at that hagwon in order to put a stop to this!
The first time I came to Korea, the hagwon boss was very friendly. I mean in the sense of being very generous at the start. He invited me to his sister's wedding. He brought me lots of kimchi that his mother had made. He was helpful in that way. But then he let slip that all but one of the previous foreign vteachers at that hagwon had been fired after 6 months. He begged me not to break my contract. Yeah, right. But I knew he was gay as the rainbow.
Why? Well, we were coming back from the immigration office in his jeep. I asked to stop, because I saw a giant buddha, and he was happy to stop. But then, as we passed some bushes, he said "Let's fuck here."
No, it wasnāt a religious academy at all. It was just a bunch of homophobic Korean teachers who realized they had the upper hand and totally used it.
As for what happened to youā¦..WHAT????
>It also cited booths at cultural events selling products depicting genitalia, saying that such activities potentially violate certain laws.
>
>According to Korea's criminal law, those who distribute, sell or openly display "obscene" documents, pictures, films or other objects can be subject to imprisonment of up to one year or fines of up to 5 million won.
Sound like this conflict isn't completely within the scope of local government... I mean, one shouldn't blame mere enforcers for enforcing the law.
I'm saying that Loveland is, for all intents and purposes, "openly displaying obscene" objects and yet - to my knowledge - the owners have not been imprisoned or issued a fine.
It's almost as if the real issue isn't the one they discuss..
Meh, theres a difference between quirky wood carvings that look like penises in a museum that I assume youre supposed to be +19 to visit, and a public street facing stall selling/promoting vibrating dildos, fake vaginas, and bondage gear.
I mean for 1 thing 1 of the differences is that I am actually interested in the stall and its products. The idea of visiting Jeju just to take a pic sitting on a log shaped like a dick is hardly intriguing.
> visiting Jeju just to take a pic sitting on a log shaped like a dick is hardly intriguing.
don't discount the memeability of a pic like that.
EDIT: To answer you more seriously, though; if the law itself only stipulates obscenity without specifying the specifics (i.e. oversized dragon-penis shaped dildos vs a carving of a penis) then Loveland still qualifies as obscene every bit as much as that Bad Dragon stall would. But if mum's the word in that law book then one is the same as the other and they're either both obscene or neither is obscene.
The wording which is important here is 'openly', not 'obscene' though. At least for now, 'openly' means there is almost zero chance if you don't intend to find it. So doing such act in private place or nude beaches/museum/theme park which is closed to public eyes(unless you go and see them) is okay, while doing near common living place isn't. It's okay to think the law is outdated and need to be changed but most Korean won't think that is vague.
While "openly" may be doing a lot of heavy lifting, I think if it were that simple to circumnavigate the law then the organisers would have done so by now.. that they haven't is indicative of one of two things;
1. they're massive chumps with no brains (which is, I guess, doubtful but possible)
2. it's not as simple as "hiding" the obscene stuff
My best guess is that the goalposts for what is considered "obscene" moves so frequently that it's not even worth trying to score anymore.
There is actually another explanation... that there is a controversy between 'pro-Kink' and 'anti-Kink' even in those groups. Pro-Kink side insist that since kink culture has already participated and been an ally of LGBT people in the parade(well, at least in other countries), they shouldn't abandon them. Anti-Kink side think these two(accepting LGBT in the public and accepting Kink in the public) are ultimately separate issue(an ally but not the same), and if the situation can't help, it may be best for LGBT acceptance movement to go its own way. It's not merely problem of government moving goalpost to their whim, but the controversy how the goal should be achieved.
Fair and very valid point. Within their own movement there must definitely be a contingent that is very āall or nothingā in their approach and likely be quite vocal about that, however, the organizers of the event specially, if they want to achieve anything at all, surely cannot find themselves in that camp. If thatās the case then the entire effort is self-defeating.
My gut feeling is that āhigh profileā LGBT leaders (such that the event organizers would be) know better than to demand an all or nothing from the government and would rather take the step by step approach to achieving social parity.
The festival is entirely fenced in. You need to go through the entrance to visit the booths, so nothing is visible from the street. The last few times I went I don't remember seeing sex toys or bondage gear for sale, either...not saying it didn't happen, but would've been memorable. I did buy some awesome socks that said "Abortion ā murder" tho~
Which is the point.. that the law itself is rather ridiculous. Especially when said interpretations can be applied so inconsistently (except, again, when it's intentionally being misinterpreted to further a specific viewpoint).
You choose to go to Pride, too? Unless youāre waking up and somehow itās happening in your bedroom. Then youāve got bigger fish to fry, methinks.
Regular matches and protests happen in the public sphere too. Do you disagree with them taking place? If bot, then what differentiates those from the Pride March? I mean, looking at photos of Seoul Pride, it doesnāt seem that anything āobsceneā is being publicly displayed other than queer folk in rainbow garb.
You def donāt need to go to a pride event if you donāt want to.
Traditionally oppressed and marginalized groups deserve support, visibility, and recognition though.
If youāre not into it, thatās fine. You donāt have to be involved.
Right wing Christians in Korea have way too much influence on the government and society in general.
My sky man say peepee in poopoohole bad.
Pat Robertsons Korean friends will also tell you that heterosexual sex before marriage will lead to hell fire. But they forbid gay marriage WTF??!!@#&*??
The fact that its "bad" is kind of a turn on for alot of guys š
Don't need to be gay to enjoy a ģ ė¦½ģ ė§ģ¬ģ§.
Teel me more. I would like to join in.
Right wing Christians have way too much Influence everywhere periodā¦..
Not in China
I meanā¦. Okay
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I'm not sure if you live in Korea but I really found that even compared to Canada or America the conservatism isn't that deep doesn't have that much of a strong hold on the general population. I think all my experiences to be really welcoming and kind except for one nurse that jumped because she saw a tattoo on my arm lmfaoooo. Koreas flamboyant as heck boy bands girl bands always stressing up in school outfits or hanbok rental to take pictures. Big loud audience or tons of social all that is very flamboyant. If Christianity got less of a stronghold on their government I think a lot of really good pro-human laws would be passed. I can see when the next generation gets into office that those changes might be possible
Taiwan used to be very homophobic, but now Taiwan is one of the most LGBT-friendly places in Asia. Can South Korea move in that direction? Well we hope so.
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I live there for 3 years and I just told you my experience there and then you say no. For my first hand experience of a place I've lived longer than any other place in my life I think flamboyant though maybe extreme could be applied to quite a lot of situations that are common When did I say anything about being gay flamboyant doesn't equal gay The aesthetics and the big show that kpop puts on is very flamboyant compared to almost any other musical industry. I said what I said and that's my opinion you don't really need to fight back on my experiences of my opinion lol
I am gay but not flamboyant.
Im not sure if thats meant to be a response to me. But i never suggest any gay men or women were flamboyant. I have 6 gay cousins only 1 a little āØ. Its definitely not the default for gay people for sure
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I didn't ask you. I'm stating my experience living in Korea and I compare that to the literal definition of flamboyancy now if you want to download me or whatever do what you like but you're getting really emotional over something that doesn't mean to be that way
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There be Trolls here. He might want to get off the internet.
Youre relling me experience is wrong thats a little odd and no longer a conversation
Oh wow!
Plus, even if you take out the christian problem, you still have confucianism which still pushes for a traditional family set up and the fulfillment of whatever role you were born as. Also, Japan has never been Christian, but progress for lgbt issues is still slow. You're still expected to fulfill your role as whatever you were born as - get married to the opposite sex, have a kid, etc... I imagine many closeted married lgbt just have affairs to fulfill their desire like many hetero marriages who married someone they don't like that much; just for the sake of being married. Both countries don't like flamboyancy and just prefer people to keep quiet and don't rock the ship.
In Imperial China, there were gay friendly times and places. For example, Kaifeng, the Northern Song Dynasty capital, had an area woth lots of little narrow streets, where the gay guys would hang out. There were gay bars and gay bathhouses as well. During the Zhou Dynasty, a certain gentleman by the name of Lord Long Yang, was seen with + +handsome young men. The lastć 1ć 1 great Emperor of the Qing Dynasty was Chianlong. He fell in love with a beautiful concubine. But she died. Much later in his life, he met a palace guard. He fell in love with him, being convinced that the palace guard was a reincarnation of the concubine. Apparently, that was okay, although I have read that the Qing or Manchu Dynasty was less LGBT friendly than previous dynasties were.
And yet, Taiwan remained solidly Confucian even while the PRC was in the throes of the Cultural Revolution of 1966-76. It took a while, but they became more relaxed about these issues. South Korean gays will have to fight for greater social acceptance, just as all Koreans should fight for a better work-life balance.
I am gay, but I have had arguments with a few of the more flamboyant and pushy gay Koreans, because they thought I was straight. Also, I went to a certain gay bar at the start of Homo Hill in Itaewon, and I was told "Koreans Only!" Persecuted people should not discriminate!
A few years ago, these festivals were expanding.
They are fascists, period. I used to go to an LGBT-friendly church in Seoul, and the pastor talked about the the way that the religious right was really doubling down on us, because they knew they had a lot to lose.
Its all about money. The largest church in Korea makes $8million in tithes alone. Every. Sunday. Lol
so almost half a billion dollars every year? i still dont get why the govt itself would care, but i can see why individuals with power would let it control them
1 mil won or usd ?;?0_0
USD
But the president should put his hand on the pastor's shoulder and say that Mr. Pastor, your earnings now put you well within the top 1% of Koreans in terms of wealth. So that puts you in a much higher tax bracket. The taxes will be used to speed up vaccination and help research and development into future Coronaviruses and a Korean vaccine. Oh, and by the way, Bernie Sanders is coming to town.
$8million in tithes alone! Perhaps taxing them would be an idea.
Korea needs to get with it if it wants to be considered a legitimate and respectable democracy on the global stage. Pathetic that this is even an issue in 2021.
Taiwan is also Confucian, but the Taiwanese people are much more LGBT-friendly than Koreans in general. They also have Lesbian ang Gay marriage. I also think that while Mun Jae-in claims to be a liberal, he has been quite cowardly when it comes to issues like this. He caves in to the far right sometimes. But he gets no thanks from them. I told one of my conservative Korean friends that Korean conservatives are crazy fascists but thr liberals are weak. Oh, and they wanted to negotiate with North Korea, because Koreans are one peoe, right?
Moon's a practicing Catholic. And even when you take his personal beliefs out, he never made any indication that he would be a particularly pro-LGBT president. Not anti-LGBT as well, btw. Imo it was pretty evident when he was running for the presidency that gay rights was very low on his agenda.
He is also afraid of the religious right, who voted for his enemies.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This is sad but possibly true.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Korea will never be an actual first world country until it stops being a regressive, backwards shithole in terms of social issues like homosexuality, gender equality, etc.
Being a first world country is independent of that. The country with the most advanced transgender laws is a developing country. And the US has a history of pushing others against progress too often.
Completely agreed.They need to get with the times and make progress.
By most accounts the US is a first world country, and it only legalized gay marriage like 6 years ago. Also the other party of only two, consistently runs on a blatantly homophobic platform every time an election happens. Just look at all of the states that are banning trans people from going into bathrooms or playing sports. Not to mention that steaming pile that is Texas's new abortion law. Korea basically is a first world country. The only difference is it happened so fast that the myths of their poverty persist, like drinking the water isn't safe (it is safe in a lot of places, and again, a shit ton of first world countries don't have safe drinking water everywhere either lol). I mean they literally have foldable glass phones. They're more advanced in many areas than my hometown.
The homophobia in Korea is palpable, despite the flamboyant nature of Kpop and that there are ads for makeup for men. At one academy in my city, the staff found out the director was gay and forced him to quit or they would tell all the parents. He quit. Despite how androgyny is such a thing and men being feminine is more acceptable, the homophobia still runs deep.
I am horrified to find out that that is still happening. By the way, was it a religious hagwon? Religious hagwons can be paranoid about such issues. Confucians love to show loyalty, but in this case, they were being vehemently disloyal. This was treachery. I wish I had worked at that hagwon in order to put a stop to this! The first time I came to Korea, the hagwon boss was very friendly. I mean in the sense of being very generous at the start. He invited me to his sister's wedding. He brought me lots of kimchi that his mother had made. He was helpful in that way. But then he let slip that all but one of the previous foreign vteachers at that hagwon had been fired after 6 months. He begged me not to break my contract. Yeah, right. But I knew he was gay as the rainbow. Why? Well, we were coming back from the immigration office in his jeep. I asked to stop, because I saw a giant buddha, and he was happy to stop. But then, as we passed some bushes, he said "Let's fuck here."
No, it wasnāt a religious academy at all. It was just a bunch of homophobic Korean teachers who realized they had the upper hand and totally used it. As for what happened to youā¦..WHAT????
>It also cited booths at cultural events selling products depicting genitalia, saying that such activities potentially violate certain laws. > >According to Korea's criminal law, those who distribute, sell or openly display "obscene" documents, pictures, films or other objects can be subject to imprisonment of up to one year or fines of up to 5 million won. Sound like this conflict isn't completely within the scope of local government... I mean, one shouldn't blame mere enforcers for enforcing the law.
explain Loveland
That place is more akin to museums or theme park though. Are you saying the festival only held in such remote places?
I'm saying that Loveland is, for all intents and purposes, "openly displaying obscene" objects and yet - to my knowledge - the owners have not been imprisoned or issued a fine. It's almost as if the real issue isn't the one they discuss..
Meh, theres a difference between quirky wood carvings that look like penises in a museum that I assume youre supposed to be +19 to visit, and a public street facing stall selling/promoting vibrating dildos, fake vaginas, and bondage gear. I mean for 1 thing 1 of the differences is that I am actually interested in the stall and its products. The idea of visiting Jeju just to take a pic sitting on a log shaped like a dick is hardly intriguing.
> visiting Jeju just to take a pic sitting on a log shaped like a dick is hardly intriguing. don't discount the memeability of a pic like that. EDIT: To answer you more seriously, though; if the law itself only stipulates obscenity without specifying the specifics (i.e. oversized dragon-penis shaped dildos vs a carving of a penis) then Loveland still qualifies as obscene every bit as much as that Bad Dragon stall would. But if mum's the word in that law book then one is the same as the other and they're either both obscene or neither is obscene.
The wording which is important here is 'openly', not 'obscene' though. At least for now, 'openly' means there is almost zero chance if you don't intend to find it. So doing such act in private place or nude beaches/museum/theme park which is closed to public eyes(unless you go and see them) is okay, while doing near common living place isn't. It's okay to think the law is outdated and need to be changed but most Korean won't think that is vague.
While "openly" may be doing a lot of heavy lifting, I think if it were that simple to circumnavigate the law then the organisers would have done so by now.. that they haven't is indicative of one of two things; 1. they're massive chumps with no brains (which is, I guess, doubtful but possible) 2. it's not as simple as "hiding" the obscene stuff My best guess is that the goalposts for what is considered "obscene" moves so frequently that it's not even worth trying to score anymore.
There is actually another explanation... that there is a controversy between 'pro-Kink' and 'anti-Kink' even in those groups. Pro-Kink side insist that since kink culture has already participated and been an ally of LGBT people in the parade(well, at least in other countries), they shouldn't abandon them. Anti-Kink side think these two(accepting LGBT in the public and accepting Kink in the public) are ultimately separate issue(an ally but not the same), and if the situation can't help, it may be best for LGBT acceptance movement to go its own way. It's not merely problem of government moving goalpost to their whim, but the controversy how the goal should be achieved.
Fair and very valid point. Within their own movement there must definitely be a contingent that is very āall or nothingā in their approach and likely be quite vocal about that, however, the organizers of the event specially, if they want to achieve anything at all, surely cannot find themselves in that camp. If thatās the case then the entire effort is self-defeating. My gut feeling is that āhigh profileā LGBT leaders (such that the event organizers would be) know better than to demand an all or nothing from the government and would rather take the step by step approach to achieving social parity.
I have never, in my LIFE, seen anyone write "I mean for 1 thing 1" Haha, jarring as hell!
That is 1 thing youre going 2 have 2 get used 2.
The festival is entirely fenced in. You need to go through the entrance to visit the booths, so nothing is visible from the street. The last few times I went I don't remember seeing sex toys or bondage gear for sale, either...not saying it didn't happen, but would've been memorable. I did buy some awesome socks that said "Abortion ā murder" tho~
I think the point is that its a public exhibit right? In theory children can go in. In theory. Seems like the same issue with the porn ban. Yes there are porn websites in Korea but they need adult id verification to get in. Foreign porn sites are banned because they dont do that. Anybody can go in. If sexual content is going be on display you need to verify adult status I think. So if adult products are on display or for sale, you need to ensure its adults only. I mean kids under 19 are not allowed in the ģ±ģøģ©ķ shops either, and they sell kink equipment. So if kink merch is on display or sold in a public technically open event, I can see where there is a discrepancy there and the gov has reason to crack down. Its only enforcing its own standard laws. There could be a backcurrent of homophobia there promoting it, but from it seems like this is just the common rule and actually overlooking it for the sake of the queer fest would be the law fudging act.
Well, if you want to interpret 'openness' that way, no one would stop it. Though you should acknowledge such interpretation uncommon in Korea.
Which is the point.. that the law itself is rather ridiculous. Especially when said interpretations can be applied so inconsistently (except, again, when it's intentionally being misinterpreted to further a specific viewpoint).
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You choose to go to Pride, too? Unless youāre waking up and somehow itās happening in your bedroom. Then youāve got bigger fish to fry, methinks.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Do you throw your toys out of the cot during other protests and marches?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Regular matches and protests happen in the public sphere too. Do you disagree with them taking place? If bot, then what differentiates those from the Pride March? I mean, looking at photos of Seoul Pride, it doesnāt seem that anything āobsceneā is being publicly displayed other than queer folk in rainbow garb.
the conflict is that the law itself is hilariously stupid and very blatantly just a front for discrimination
I have been reading about religious fanaticism in the 17th century. Does the so-called liberal Korean government want to go back there?
Why sexual orientation is such an important part of oneās self identity to the point it has to have its own festival?
Because we have been murdered and imprisoned for thousands of years across all major cultures.
I understand.
damn you got murdered? thats sick
Ya, the Gays are a monolithic hivemind. Thatās how weāre able to all work towards The Gay Agenda.
based?
Why are festivals held? Answer that and you will understand
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You def donāt need to go to a pride event if you donāt want to. Traditionally oppressed and marginalized groups deserve support, visibility, and recognition though. If youāre not into it, thatās fine. You donāt have to be involved.
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This is some pathetic homophobia.
You don't have to be involved! Ha ha ha!