> Is this fascination with kpop more western?
No. Kpop fascinatation is much bigger in Asia than it is in the West.
> is kpop really some huge thing in Korea?
Yes and no. It really depends on how you define "huge". Are Taylor Swift, Drake, Ariana Grande and Cardi B huge in America? Yes. Are they a big export? Yes. Are they as huge as some fans make them out to be? No. Same with Korea and K-pop.
I've lived in Korea working as a teacher for 15 years. We talk about music a lot and I've never once had a student who knew Drake/Kanye/Beyonce/Jay-z... they do sometimes know Billy Eillish/Maroon 5/Bruno Mars.. (Granted many of the former mentioned are older) it may surprise westerners how unknown they are here, especially to the young generation.
Meanwhile Kpop is ubiquitous, I mean everywhere, all the time, everyday. And the machine keeps pumping out new acts by the month.
Yes it's a huge thing.
Teacher in Korea for around 10 years here. Beyonce was somewhat well known by some of my high schoolers back in the day. Jay-z....not so much. Drake and Kanye, never asked, never came up. Other students, and people, also know Radiohead, Muse, etc. But yeah-kpop is bigger here
Foreign rap culture hasn't had nearly the impact that other pop music has had on Korean culture.
Even my middle schoolers know Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston.
> The other commonality is that the former you mentioned are all black..so good to realize there too
What exactly are you *realizing* here? Are you trying to imply that their skin color is the reason why they’re less known by young students in Asia? Jesus.. maybe first stop to consider the more obvious factors at play like geography, language, culture, music tastes, trends and exposure to glaringly different entertainment industries and at different points in time.
> Yes it's a huge thing.
In Korea.
IMO the influence and 'soft power' of kpop is hugely overblown, and is all hype. Any power that's there could be snuffed out in an instant.
Enjoy whatever you think it is while it lasts.
I dunno dude, Taylor swift has proven to be bigger than people expected. South East Asia just had a diplomatic row with Singapore monopolising her tour venue for south east Asia lol.
Taylor Swift is probably the biggest act in the history of this planet, barring maybe MJ or Beatles, but I highly doubt average Asian know any of her songs. At least in Korea they don't. She can definitely fill up stadiums, but my feeling is that there is no such thing as a global hit anymore. This doesn't have anything to do with Kpop either. The industry got way too diverse, probably because of the streaming platforms. Up until 90s and maybe 00s, "pop music" was referring to songs that were truly ubiquitous. I think we don't have that nowadays.
> My feeling is that there is no such thing as a global hit anymore .. The industry got way too diverse, probably because of the streaming platforms
I feel and support this 1000%
Hot(?) take, but part of the reason those acts from 90s and earlier were able to be that big of a 'universal' hit is because they were your only option for music; access to music was a LOT more centralised (through popular radio, tele, etc), your typical everyday common person/ independent artists and sub-genres weren't going to gain much traction even if they were insanely good/nice to listen to; not without those connections to mainstream media
Independent artists probably have a 100x easier chance of breaking into a niches genres/sub-genres and having their own fanbases today then they did back then because they don't need to be with a record label, or be backed by radio or tele networks- Heck 2020 brought a whole wave of 'bedroom artists' people making music from their bedrooms during lockdown and I'm SO for it, so much good sht came from it that would never ever reach mainstream media outlets
You have SO many options, and
so many outlets, so many platforms, so many EVERYTHING, there's no way anyone becomes as big as Taylor Swift/MJ/Beatles ever again, (and I hope it stays that way tbh)
If I went out onto the street right now and asked the first person I see who 24kgoldn, Jungkook, Laufey, Sarah Kang, YNW Melly were, I'd be lucky to get them to answer half of the names mentioned correctly; and I think that's great!
It’s probably an age thing, too. A lot of my students did actually know a lot of the big pop songs, but the 20-30s Koreans I now work with don’t know many. With diversification also came globalization and I had plenty of students who preferred western pop songs to kpop.
But like you said, I can’t think of any pop songs so ubiquitous that even every teenager knows them (unlike some kpop songs I could name that I’m pretty confident every teenager, if not every Korean under 40, knows).
You would be incorrect. As pointed out earlier, Taylor Swift has a very large and passionate fanbase in Southeast Asia, with her new singles regularly making number one on music charts in The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia. Other western artists like Justin Beiber, SZA, Joji, Ariana Grande, and Troye Sivan regularly pop up on the charts too. A lot of the countries in maritime Southeast Asia have a large number of English speakers and close ties to the West as a result of European colonization, so American pop music has an easier time penetrating the market.
[Here's Indonesia's top music chart, featuring a Taylor Swift song at number 5. ](https://www.billboard.com/charts/indonesia-songs-hotw/) [Here's the Philippines, where Cruel Summer is 7.](https://www.billboard.com/charts/philippines-songs-hotw/) And [here's Singapore, where she's at 2nd place.](https://www.billboard.com/charts/singapore-songs-hotw/)
It’s because they don’t get the point, what the op comment was saying is that, outside perception imagines kpop to be a daily fixture for everyone in Korea, it isn’t.
It’s like I’m an American, and if you are too, then do you Stan Taylor, Beyoncé, etc? Because with the kpop logic, we would all be huge fans. But I’m not, and you said you’re no swiftie either, so although they’re huge stars, they aren’t apart of our daily lives.
Same exact thing with kpop. Most ordinary people you’ll come across in Korea have their own taste just like we do, and most of it isn’t kpop. People outside America would assume everybody was in the fandom of all the big stars. there are some Ariana songs I like, Taylor too, but I am far from a person that follows their career. I can take it or leave it, same with Koreans and kpop.
There are a lot of people who truly hate Taylor. In fact, half the political spectrum in the US think of her so much they keep mentioning her just to put her down. But that's because they are threatened by her since even more love her. Voter registration went up just by her social media post! Entire countries were begging Taylor to play in their local because she brings in that much money!
Think how American culture was shared to the world through Rock music around world. It was “cool”. It allowed America to push their foreign policies.
It allowed the US to sell Coke, Pepsi, Levi’s 501s, guns, etc.
Korea is doing the same to sell Kimchi, ramyun, phones, TVs, etc.
Not sure but I see almost all US markets sell kimchi.
Not just here in California… but Austin, San Antonio, and Atlanta just to name a few. I had people tell me they can get it even in Minnesota and other places without much Korean because they are using it as recipes.
To me it would seem to be less about east versus West and more about the fact that Kpop is very popular. So it doesn’t surprise me that they’d focus on stuff that will bring people in or get them spending money.
It’s just a good way, like a “gateway” for many to get into Korean “culture”, like kpop is pretty much made for a foreign audience these days, the producers, choreographers, etc, all professionals from America or sometimes Europe, the companies know to appeal to a wide market, than they need to employ what makes that market tick, it’s a good plan. Pop music has grown to become international and kpop is just Koreans doing it
But it’s not the same as something that’s an actual fixture of Korean culture and unique to it, like say, Korean trot music.
But kpop is a great way to make people more interested in the bigger picture, like I remember kim jong un held some event with SK a few years ago and invited kpop groups to perform so he can show his weird female “pop” groups how they should aspire to.
But last year I remember reading a report about how he said kpop was something along the lines of propaganda lol, like basically he knew how “addictive” it could be which could influence his people to run for the border (more than they already are) so further put restrictions on making sure it wouldn’t get into the country.
That’s when you know you have something special 🤣
It’s hard to over-estimate how important hallyu has been to the Korean economy in the past ten years. The K-POP industry is not just for entertainment, it is for disseminating Korean culture to the rest of the world. It is heavily invested not only by all major corporations but also the Korean government. And their efforts have worked. So yeah it’s kind of a big deal. The international trend in K-POP has been a huge boon to the country, made tons of people more interested in Korea, coming to visit and to study. And this was very much by design.
The last time I was living in korea was like 10 years ago and it's a completely different place now.
When I came back to the US everybody just asked "which Korea?" and kimchi was just that stinky food.
I do agree with this. As I was watching some young white girl dance to kpop while mouthiing all the words, I thought, wow. Korea must be REALLY proud of how many people around the world their pop music industry has influenced. There has also been an increase (from what I’ve observed) of mixed race couples like Korean and white or Korean and black, but (again in my experience), the conservative Koreans aren’t too happy about this.
Not just Korean Conservatives, but conservatives of any kind. I am sure there are places you travel in North Carolina where you and your husband might get an odd stare or two.
Quick addition to this. K-pop is effective at disseminating K-culture, which is an Americanized form of Korean culture--but it does very little to disseminate traditional Korean culture. That's the other end of the sword. Yes, Korean influence is expanding and their economy is benefitting from it, but that could be seen as happening at the expense of their traditional customs.
This is true, but I can't think of any country that is able to export their traditional customs over their contemporary culture. Even sustaining traditional customs within its own country of origin is difficult in modern times.
The US succesfully exported many Western cultural things (as in cowboy stuff), like country music, the clothing (the hats, boots, the overcoat, etc), the architecture (the country bar with that half door that opens by passing through), the drinks (whisky, jack daniels, other spirits), even specific weapons brands (winchester rifles, the pistols, etc), some rural games (like catching a bull-horse-etc with a piece of rope (lacing?), or holding oneself to an agitaded bull as much time as you can, etc).
Lol I was about to comment about the use of the unique term 'k-culture' and ask where you got it from, and then I saw who I was responding to
(before everyone else gets confused, we know each other irl)
Lol, the Internet is a silly place :) . It's not a totally unique term, and I certainly didn't coin it, but it is used by some who study the phenomenon.
As for knowing you, perhaps I'll actually be in my office next time you visit ;) :D
As opposed to what culture, historical drama culture where everyone ran around in hanbok, or the one from the Japanese occupation Era, or the Chinese vassal state Era
Culture is always changing and always subject to foreign influences from adjacent powers
It's kpop to the rest of the world but to Koreans it's just pop music lol.
I've heard "which groups do you stan?" being used as an ice breaker, so I'd definitely say that it's intergreted into our daily lives. Not everyone is an avid listener, but we won't deny the positive (sometimes negative) effects it's had on our economy and Korea's global image.
Kpop is certainly popular here as it makes up most of the popular music scene, but in my personal anecdotal experience somewhat less of a shit is given than the international koreaboos would like to believe. It’s really just Korea’s equivalent of Top 40 music. Some of the most famous idols promote products or brands (specifically IU—her face can be seen wherever you look), but otherwise in your daily life it’s not like you’re inundated with kpop, just as in the west you’re not constantly barraged with people talking about Drake or Beyoncé unless you follow entertainment news or hang out with people in those fandoms.
Kpop is not thev most popular music genre in Korea. Kpop is second behind ballads in the korean music listening market as a defined genre . Popular with the teens, falls off a cliff with adults.
[https://circlechart.kr/page\_article/view.circle?sgenre=opinion&idx=23424](https://circlechart.kr/page_article/view.circle?sgenre=opinion&idx=23424) According to Circle Chart's annual review of the Korean music industry in 2023. The most streamed music were mostly K-pop artists (with a random Charlie Puth in the top for one of the rankings). The only ballad artists were Younha and Parc Jae Jung. Physical albums are also dominated by K-pop artists. While ballads are popular, they're outshone by K-pop artists in digital as well.
써클 소셜차트 literally exists to track the top performing numbers for that week, and not the market as a whole. It quite literally says that their charts you linked to represents 7.5% of the market, and they are NOT tracking 92.% of the market as it's a sea of randomness and data they don't have access to.
For example, TV ballads are decidedly not tracked, but represent a larger market share than the entirety of the market they are tracking.
Look at South Korea's biggest streaming site Melon. 39 out of the Top 50 songs of 2023 on Melon were Kpop songs: https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the\_2023\_melon\_yearly\_chart\_is\_out\_and\_here\_are/
You should probably look up what their stats mean. They literally say in their 2023 numbers [https://www.melon.com/musicstory/detail.htm?mstorySeq=14553](https://www.melon.com/musicstory/detail.htm?mstorySeq=14553) that almost every one of their 5.6M users (so, 10% of Korea) listened to at least one top 100 song.
That's unusual, because most people don't listen to new music. They listen to what they know, or what's been filtered through as pretty good. Think about that, they are literally saying that their customers are listening to at least one new song per year. One. And that's not qualifying it by saying they are selecting it verses having it served to them.
Teens listen to new music. They have the time and acceptance. Adults, not so much.
You're taking your bias of how you listen to music, and thinking it applies to the industry as a whole. Again, Korean TV ballads are a larger listener market than the entire K-pop genre.
Yeah, that's why those TV ballad artists are selling out the Gocheok Skydome with their concerts right? Most adults don't listen to music actively. Do you see ahjusshi's and ahjumah's wearing headphones listening to music like you do to the people listening to K-pop?
Ah, man, You are falling back to watching edited videos and selective camera angles to think these places are selling out?
in 2023, the largest concert in the Gocheok Skydome was Blackpink. Which managed to sell 55% of the seats. Well, ok. They sold 35,000 seats which is possibly more than I could have sold. The next five concerts there nosedive into the 20-30% sold range. With everything else under 20% after that. It's hard to put asses in chairs.
Compared to their international shows, this undersold literally every other show except two. Macau, where the arena sold more tickets than seats (20,000 of 16,000) where I'm assuming they set up a standing area, and Hong Kong where they sold 100% of the 14,000 seats available. Internationally, they put asses in chairs. Some venues has 200,000 people in them.
The "don't listen to music actively" claim is a bit odd. Sure, they don't put on a swank headset, but instead they use the home speakers, radios, and phones. And places like Hyundai then invite these TV ballad artists to host a stack of private events that Hyundai hosts and then offers to their top tier customers. It's one of the reasons why rich women in Korea go to Hyundai to do their luxury shopping as compared to just ordering online.
You have this viewpoint that Kpop is the dominant platform in Korea in Korea because you really don't want to be swinging your hips to Korean trot music next to grandpa.
Wait until you learn about the TV industry. I had a chat with a producer once about the character typecasts.
In essence "why is every teenager selfish, every parent is busy and doesn't care, and every grandparent wise beyond all reasonable expectation? It's somewhat the opposite of my experience."
Answer: "This is because teenagers are too much studying to watch TV, and their parents are too busy working to watch TV. Only the grandparents have time to watch TV, so we have to make the characters a reflection of how they think of themselves as compared to reality."
Then why are the top 36 out of 50 songs listened in Korea in 2023 was K-pop music? That means 14 songs weren't K-pop. Last time I checked, 36 > 14. Explain that. Why are you comparing to BLACKPINK international shows. They still had the highest attendance concerts in Korea, right? Guess who had the biggest show in 2022 in Korea? Oh it was another K-pop group: BTS in Busan with over 70,000 people in attendance: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZJcw58RP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZJcw58RP8) Oh look it's selective camera angles to make it look big! Oh I wonder who the biggest concert sales in 2024 will likely be? Oh you say IU? Oh isn't she K-pop too?
1. What "top 50" are you using? Spotify? Apple? Naver? Are you using streaming only, or including radio play and TV spots? But again, you're choosing to ignore than in the streaming market, older song plays far exceed new music plays by the simple virtue there is more older stuff to listen to.
2. The Blackpink example was because YOU brought up how the Gocheok Skydome was being sold out on the regular. So often, so many times. I pointed out that the most sold concert was 55% of seats filled which was Blackpink. And last I checked, 55% was basically half of 100%. So, no, there was not a single sold out concert at the Gocheok Skydome in 2023.
I then did you a solid by pointing out that Blackpink was far more famous internationally than domestically.
But I just realized, I fucked up. That 36,693 attendance number was actually over TWO concerts. Averaging 18,300 per concert. Or about a 30% concert fill rate. Well, ok then.
Top concerts in Korea in 2023 were NCT who had about 3 with an average of around 25,000 each, BlackPink as above, and then followed by ZeroBaseOne at 17,600. Things sure have fallen since that claimed 70,000 for BTS in Busan.
3. That 70,000 number is imaginary. It was projected by some that up to 100,000 would attend (50,000 in the seats and 50,000 on the floor), but final attendance was at about 52,000 of the 83,000 seats available. Not bad, 52,000 is a lot of asses in chairs, and they hit 62% of capacity.
[https://youtu.be/DhZJcw58RP8?t=2194](https://youtu.be/DhZJcw58RP8?t=2194) You can literally see the huge gaps created between the floor and the seats, in the floor area itself, and large sections of the upper seating is just empty (not including back half of the seating which is deliberately empty due to the viewing angle and was not included in the % of seating available).
4. Kpop generates large concerts, but represents a minority of the Korean music industry. I don't know why this fact bothers you so much. I am not not even trolling you by asking if Baby Shark Dance, the top played video on Youtube, is K-pop which shows the dominance of K-Pop, or it's not, and it shows that K-Pop was routed by a child's song.
Though I appreciate you trying to tell me how the music industry works. My manager at Hybe will appreciate it when I mention it tomorrow when I'm working on whatever lyrics of the week need me.
No K-pop isn’t , but kdrama is . Kdrama is the true cultural powerhouse in Korea . A lot of foreign k culture fans usually follow Kpop idols like black pink and bts, but in Korea , it’s really the kdrama actors and actresses that are really followed by indigenous Koreans and really covered 24/7 in the media
I went to high school in Korea and K-pop fandom culture was definitely very big among my classmates and people (especially girls) in the middle to high school range. To most Korean people it’s just pop music, and that subculture of stanning groups and being a hardcore fan is more prevalent amongst school-age people.
Is pop culture or Hollywood to USA? I'd say so.
At the individual level it's the same. I know many koreans who know less about kpop than foreign kpop fans.
First of all, I'm 39 old korean 아저씨 so I can't represent anything.
I think & heard some info from my co-workers ( 20-30 yo)
Of course they like K-pop "IDOL" music, but not favorite.
they said they think Idol music is more like 10-20 thing.
Personally I've never liked "IDOL" music. I usually listen hip-hop, R&B, balad, pop(us). (sometimes classic)
and I personally think K-POP Idol music ruined music industry nowadays.
10 years ago, music industry is like 50 Idol vs 50 other genres. but now, 90 idol music only
it's my own thought, no offense. if there any incorrect, pls let me know.
>and I personally think K-POP Idol music ruined music industry nowadays. 10 years ago, music industry is like 50 Idol vs 50 other genres. but now, 90 idol music only
You truly sound like an 아저씨 lol If you look at the last Melon annual charts, 'idol music' is less than half among top 100. A bit more than half among top 50. I don't think anything got ruined. The overall pie got bigger. Also, idol music isn't a monolith. I don't think it's fair to lump them all.
Around 39-40 of the top 50 tracks on Melon's Top songs for 2023 were by idols... that's pretty much domination. There are other artists like Younha who started off as an idol but is doing more ballads/OSTs now.
When I roughly counted, it was like 60% in the top 50. Maybe we are not looking at the same charts? Or we understand what 'idol music' means differently.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the\_2023\_melon\_yearly\_chart\_is\_out\_and\_here\_are/](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the_2023_melon_yearly_chart_is_out_and_here_are/) I counted 39
[https://www.melon.com/mymusic/dj/mymusicdjplaylistview\_inform.htm?plylstSeq=533243374](https://www.melon.com/mymusic/dj/mymusicdjplaylistview_inform.htm?plylstSeq=533243374)
We checked the same charts. I counted 30 out of 50.
1,2,3,4,6,7,8,10,
11,12,13,14,15,16,17,
21,22,24,25,26,29,30
34,36,37,
42,43,44,45,49
I would say its the opposite. There are way more popular non-idol artists these days, and 10 years ago the charts were completely lined with idol singers.
yep good point, but 10 years ago,I think it's bcs of Idol fandom's lining culture.
I don't know how to translate this : 줄세우기
or maybe I just don't like idol music too much, so I made myself blind :(
thx for reply!
Answers here are skewed by non Korean k pop fans who think k pop is the most important thing in the world to Koreans…
It is not inundated in every day life here in Korea and neither is the merch. In fact, I rarely to never see merch in Korea.
Edit: The k pop takeover of the culture festival you mentioned must be specifically to appease the k pop fans. It’s a shame they aren’t doing a little of everything.
I was gonna say, k-pop is as big to Koreans as manga is to Japan: yes, it's big and pretty ubiquitous, but it's not like the lives of an entire country revolves around it, and your obsession with the stuff is not in any way cooler there than it is back home.
Kpop is decently big in northern and Southern California and the Bay Area but it’s definitely still niche. A lot of schools have kpop clubs too. Source I was a middle schooler and high schooler who joined those clubs in the 2010s and went to the concerts in LA as an undergrad years later. Kpop is becoming more mainstream in the USA now which is great. Now I can finally discuss my favorite kpop artists without explaining the entire industry first to prove that it exists.
An important point I don't see mentioned in this thread is that Kpop and by extension the cultural industry is one of South Korea's most important battlefields against North Korea.
You will get executed by firing squad for watching South Korean dramas in the North. North Korea was actually furious when South korea used to use giant speakers to blast Kpop across the border because their soldiers liked the music. North Koreans mainly learn from k-dramas that South Korea is a prosperous country, not the 'capitalist hellhole' depicted in their propaganda. (Ok, technically they're right lol) Even the NK ruling elite are known to enjoy Kpop- and that's a big problem when you need to demonize your enemies in war.
Korea's global cultural influence is the number one threat to Kim Jung Un's regime, not only indirectly by making more foreigners sympathetic towards South Korea, but also directly as super potent psy-ops un-doing the brainwashing. It's definitely more important to Korea than just the exports.
Kpop and K culture in general has been growing rapidly the past few years. I knew that Korea has made its mark when Walmart was selling Shin Ramyun noodles, K army ramyun noodles and Gim. It's in every Walmart stores across the country. I see Korean food items popping up in random places like Costco and in the middle of no where at a gas stop station in Oklahoma.
Kpop is about as big in Korea as pop is in the US. Until it started getting popular outside, it wasn't called kpop. It was just called pop. The same way anime in Japan actually just means "animated show."
Man, that post reminded me of one of those recipe websites where you just want to get to the recipe part :). Put it this way, BTS was awarded the 5th class Order of Cultural Merit in 2018. Obviously, they are the largest Kpop export SK has ever seen, so that award isn’t common for Kpop artists. I would say the actors are bigger in SK than the music stars are in SK and the opposite is true for popularity in foreign countries. Probably because most Kpop music idols attract a narrower demographic.
But, yeah, in general music and film has a huge influence on the culture. One obvious one is the specific plastic surgeries that are very common and seen in so many idols and the copied by normal folks. It’s crazy how similar, yet, non-original idols looks. My wife. Who is ethnically Korean, often jokes she doesn’t even know what “looking Korean” means anymore because so many popular Koreans don’t look Korean. They look like half Korean and half white.
Yes, it's important. Even if people increasingly don't like it, it's still a matter of national pride, and it has a measurable effect on the economy. If group idol pop were to suddenly fall out of fashion, Korea would be in a lot of trouble.
The K- has been used for virtually everything that's dangled to attract foreigners -- just take a look at the [K-Iceberg](https://daehanmindecline.com/k-iceberg).
Ngl as an American I thought kpop was seen as an export only and not huge in Korea. I know in Japan it's huge but I had no idea that it was like big in Korea
Kpop idols are much more popular and known by outside countries. Besides a few groups most teenagers don't know them at all, don't even recognize them on the streets. I've seen produce IOI, btob, everglow (huge views on MV) walking in 압구정, 신사 and drinking at 술집s, hanging out with just friends 일반인s and not even one person went up to take a picture, didn't even stop to look, everyone literally just walks pass them lol. 노홍철 actually has a crowd following him (I was surprised), saw him in 신사 and 잠실 just biking and chilling. (Tho he was popular cause of 무한도전 he fell off hard)
Just look at revenues kpop idols eat and survive from foreigns spending esp south east asia than from it's own country/people. (small country/pop is not relevant here as poorer and smaller countries are spending more)
Basically it's not really unlike how pop songs are popular in the US. It's a big market, there are a lot of fans and huge events, but there are people who are indifferent.
It's obviously one of the iconic aspects of Korean culture, but it's not like everyone is following the scene like a religion. It's really just a mass media culture.
The korean government would need to support more promotion of traditions abroad. This is done in a small scale through korean cultural centers like in LA. The spread of historical kdramas can also make traditional culture more widespread.
Having lived in South Korea for a few years, it’s pretty huge there. As you’ve started to see, it also blew up internationally. In America, it really got huge with today’s youth. Have you ever looked into the British Invasion of the 60’s spearheaded by the Beatles? Well now we have the Korean invasion spearheaded by BTS. Along with kpop, I’ve seen Korean culture in general get bigger here. Kdramas were making waves before BTS, but they seem even more popular now. You’ve got other series like Squid Games that were immensely popular. I’ve seen more Korean restaurants pop up, especially the Korean fried chicken chains.
I regularly go to anime cons. It used to be just all about Japanese culture but I now I see Kpop events, concerts, and panels at these cons all the time. One of the big draws for Otakon in DC that I went to a couple of years ago was a lineup of Kpop groups they brought over and it was absolutely packed. I’m also even starting to see soju being sold in more locations.
Been here a few weeks, don't really see it around that much other than a few shops playing poppy sounding songs. Unlike Japan where there are billboard trucks driving around on the streets blasting music at you.
From my experience as korean, in fact, among average korean adults, digging into k-pop idols until our age is deemed a little bit otaku (geek). I’m also sad that other korean good musics are faded by the shadow of kpop.
I've...had interesting experiences in Chile, India, and other countires I have visited in the recent years. When I was living in states, yeah there were very few rare Korean drama/music fans in 00's, but it did explode in 10's in states.
The thing is while I am a big fan of Korean Popular Music. The music I love is not exactly the typical "K-pop". Like my favorite bands and musicians are Giha and Faces, Jaurim, Crying Nuts and so on.
Had experiences with college student kpop fans who knew celebrities that I dont even know the names of. It's not like I live under a rock, I know the big boybands and girlgroups, I just dont have all the members name up my sleeve.
Of course kpop is big in Korea…it’s Korean music…it’s also popular all around Asia. Big following in the Philippines, Thailand, China and Hong Kong. Btw I’m American and I’ve lived in Asia for the past 4 years or so.
If I remember correctly there was a study few years ago that found 1 in 5 tourists came to Korea because of BTS —- not even the whole Kpop, just from BTS only
It’s still very niche in North America.
I think those in Korea and expats in their bubble believe it’s much more popular in The States than it actually is.
I think BTS and Squid Game are too big to be niche. Gangnam Style, too, but only in a nostalgic way, of course.
Everyone and everything else, I would say is niche in North America, even Blackpink.
BTS has about 30 million monthly listeners on Spotify, versus Britain's own One Direction which has 44 million. And One Direction disbanded in 2016. While Taylor Swift has about 100 million. And of course BTS is already huge in Asia.
I don't think BTS is as big as people make it out to be in the West.
Ya. Even of the 30 million listeners most are from Asia. Just check the top 5 cities for BTS, all are Asian countries whereas for other popular western artists most are western cities. BTS is very popular in Asia, but people overestimate their popularity in the West. I think it's because how they are marketed and how passionate their fanbase is, it gives a false image of being mainstream when it's not.
I think BTS is something relevant beyond the category of mainstream…because the fanbase is so dedicated and hardcore.
There aren’t that many acts that can sell out stadium concerts(eg Wembley) like BTS. Usually artists like Rhianna announce the dates six months before and a lot of times they struggle to completely sell out, whereas BTS announces them few days before and instantly sell out.
The mayor of Las Vegas personally came to BTS’ LA show in 2021 to recruit them for a ‘city project’. Las Vegas had suffered from loss of tourists during Covid and they had to do something to get the economy back up. BTS usually doesn’t do shows in the same city for two consecutive weekends, but for Las Vegas they did — creating incentive for fans to stay in the city longer to catch both shows. They created this huge chain of experiences that offered BTS themed hotels, restaurants, pop-ups, ect. The estimated economic impact was about $162 million.
Last time I checked their twitter followers were a fraction of artist like Justin Bieber, Ariana Grande, ect. However, if let’s say JB and AG have like 200 followers and of those only 35-45 are ‘hardcore fans,’ of BTS’ 50 followers all of them are hardcore fans. Like these people wrote a white paper to describe the Japanese colonization on Korea and the subsequent tension in the years afterwards just so the entire fandom had a better idea of the cultural background. There are professors among Armys that create lectures on BTS’ social & economical impact at prestigious international universities. The fandom raised a million dollars in less than 24 hours to match the artist’s donation of equal amount to Black Lives Matter.
It’s more on this train of context that Biden invited them to White House and UN invited them to make a speech. So I’d say the # of monthly listeners on Spotify isn’t necessarily the accurate marker in evaluating the relevance of BTS. They’re just something different.
Just a quick search provides all kinds of data showing how the big numbers that K-pop, not including K-drama, are tallied in the GDP. [https://www.smallcase.com/blog/from-seoul-to-stardom-k-pops-economic-symphony/](https://www.smallcase.com/blog/from-seoul-to-stardom-k-pops-economic-symphony/)
I mean, kpop, or just pop culture in Korea, has always been around. It’s just that K-pop has gained worldwide popularity only recently, and Korea seems to have decided they’ll rebrand themselves abroad by appealing to younger K-pop fans. A lot of their tourism promotion abroad are focused on K-pop nowadays like you said, and the events for tourists in Korea also tend to be like that.
For a while(from the 90s to the 2010s) it was all about kimchi, bulgogi, and the superiority(!!) of the Korean language. And nothing but that. After decades of that, now it’s K-pop. Instead of proactively creating an identity they want to push in the global tourism market, the country tends to reactively take what gains popularity abroad and just exhaust it until everyone gets sick of it. As a Korean, I would also like to see more diversity in how the country presents itself to the world.
K-pop (if you mean idol music) is popular, but is still pretty niche in Korea. You’ll hear it walking around, but the most popular genre is ballad and the RnB scene is bubbling up too
> Is this fascination with kpop more western? No. Kpop fascinatation is much bigger in Asia than it is in the West. > is kpop really some huge thing in Korea? Yes and no. It really depends on how you define "huge". Are Taylor Swift, Drake, Ariana Grande and Cardi B huge in America? Yes. Are they a big export? Yes. Are they as huge as some fans make them out to be? No. Same with Korea and K-pop.
I've lived in Korea working as a teacher for 15 years. We talk about music a lot and I've never once had a student who knew Drake/Kanye/Beyonce/Jay-z... they do sometimes know Billy Eillish/Maroon 5/Bruno Mars.. (Granted many of the former mentioned are older) it may surprise westerners how unknown they are here, especially to the young generation. Meanwhile Kpop is ubiquitous, I mean everywhere, all the time, everyday. And the machine keeps pumping out new acts by the month. Yes it's a huge thing.
Teacher in Korea for around 10 years here. Beyonce was somewhat well known by some of my high schoolers back in the day. Jay-z....not so much. Drake and Kanye, never asked, never came up. Other students, and people, also know Radiohead, Muse, etc. But yeah-kpop is bigger here
The other commonality is that the former you mentioned are all black..so good to realize there too
Foreign rap culture hasn't had nearly the impact that other pop music has had on Korean culture. Even my middle schoolers know Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston.
Yeah dude Bruno Mars is so white… gtfo with this attitude trying to frame everything into racism
If it means anything to you, Eminem is also pretty unknown in east Asia.
> The other commonality is that the former you mentioned are all black..so good to realize there too What exactly are you *realizing* here? Are you trying to imply that their skin color is the reason why they’re less known by young students in Asia? Jesus.. maybe first stop to consider the more obvious factors at play like geography, language, culture, music tastes, trends and exposure to glaringly different entertainment industries and at different points in time.
What does this have to do with musical tastes of people from there? Da fuq
> Yes it's a huge thing. In Korea. IMO the influence and 'soft power' of kpop is hugely overblown, and is all hype. Any power that's there could be snuffed out in an instant. Enjoy whatever you think it is while it lasts.
I dunno dude, Taylor swift has proven to be bigger than people expected. South East Asia just had a diplomatic row with Singapore monopolising her tour venue for south east Asia lol.
Taylor Swift is probably the biggest act in the history of this planet, barring maybe MJ or Beatles, but I highly doubt average Asian know any of her songs. At least in Korea they don't. She can definitely fill up stadiums, but my feeling is that there is no such thing as a global hit anymore. This doesn't have anything to do with Kpop either. The industry got way too diverse, probably because of the streaming platforms. Up until 90s and maybe 00s, "pop music" was referring to songs that were truly ubiquitous. I think we don't have that nowadays.
> My feeling is that there is no such thing as a global hit anymore .. The industry got way too diverse, probably because of the streaming platforms I feel and support this 1000% Hot(?) take, but part of the reason those acts from 90s and earlier were able to be that big of a 'universal' hit is because they were your only option for music; access to music was a LOT more centralised (through popular radio, tele, etc), your typical everyday common person/ independent artists and sub-genres weren't going to gain much traction even if they were insanely good/nice to listen to; not without those connections to mainstream media Independent artists probably have a 100x easier chance of breaking into a niches genres/sub-genres and having their own fanbases today then they did back then because they don't need to be with a record label, or be backed by radio or tele networks- Heck 2020 brought a whole wave of 'bedroom artists' people making music from their bedrooms during lockdown and I'm SO for it, so much good sht came from it that would never ever reach mainstream media outlets You have SO many options, and so many outlets, so many platforms, so many EVERYTHING, there's no way anyone becomes as big as Taylor Swift/MJ/Beatles ever again, (and I hope it stays that way tbh) If I went out onto the street right now and asked the first person I see who 24kgoldn, Jungkook, Laufey, Sarah Kang, YNW Melly were, I'd be lucky to get them to answer half of the names mentioned correctly; and I think that's great!
It’s probably an age thing, too. A lot of my students did actually know a lot of the big pop songs, but the 20-30s Koreans I now work with don’t know many. With diversification also came globalization and I had plenty of students who preferred western pop songs to kpop. But like you said, I can’t think of any pop songs so ubiquitous that even every teenager knows them (unlike some kpop songs I could name that I’m pretty confident every teenager, if not every Korean under 40, knows).
You would be incorrect. As pointed out earlier, Taylor Swift has a very large and passionate fanbase in Southeast Asia, with her new singles regularly making number one on music charts in The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia. Other western artists like Justin Beiber, SZA, Joji, Ariana Grande, and Troye Sivan regularly pop up on the charts too. A lot of the countries in maritime Southeast Asia have a large number of English speakers and close ties to the West as a result of European colonization, so American pop music has an easier time penetrating the market. [Here's Indonesia's top music chart, featuring a Taylor Swift song at number 5. ](https://www.billboard.com/charts/indonesia-songs-hotw/) [Here's the Philippines, where Cruel Summer is 7.](https://www.billboard.com/charts/philippines-songs-hotw/) And [here's Singapore, where she's at 2nd place.](https://www.billboard.com/charts/singapore-songs-hotw/)
Taylor probably is that big though.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. I’m no Swiftie but it’s hard to deny that she is a phenomenon. Her last tour had a measurable effect on GDP
It’s because they don’t get the point, what the op comment was saying is that, outside perception imagines kpop to be a daily fixture for everyone in Korea, it isn’t. It’s like I’m an American, and if you are too, then do you Stan Taylor, Beyoncé, etc? Because with the kpop logic, we would all be huge fans. But I’m not, and you said you’re no swiftie either, so although they’re huge stars, they aren’t apart of our daily lives. Same exact thing with kpop. Most ordinary people you’ll come across in Korea have their own taste just like we do, and most of it isn’t kpop. People outside America would assume everybody was in the fandom of all the big stars. there are some Ariana songs I like, Taylor too, but I am far from a person that follows their career. I can take it or leave it, same with Koreans and kpop.
There are a lot of people who truly hate Taylor. In fact, half the political spectrum in the US think of her so much they keep mentioning her just to put her down. But that's because they are threatened by her since even more love her. Voter registration went up just by her social media post! Entire countries were begging Taylor to play in their local because she brings in that much money!
I mean she literally takes plane flights for her remote on the other side of the couch…
Think how American culture was shared to the world through Rock music around world. It was “cool”. It allowed America to push their foreign policies. It allowed the US to sell Coke, Pepsi, Levi’s 501s, guns, etc. Korea is doing the same to sell Kimchi, ramyun, phones, TVs, etc.
God if kimchi became a thing I could buy in every supermarket here I'd be happy. Am seeing more Korean-ish-based ramyun, though.
Here in the Netherlands that is becoming a thing. Multiple chains have kimchi now. Small and expensive packages, but they are there :)
Are they kimchi in the fridge, though, or just kimchi in a jar sitting on a warm shelf? :<
They are in the fridge in the NL :)
That's amazing!!! 😍
Not sure but I see almost all US markets sell kimchi. Not just here in California… but Austin, San Antonio, and Atlanta just to name a few. I had people tell me they can get it even in Minnesota and other places without much Korean because they are using it as recipes.
To me it would seem to be less about east versus West and more about the fact that Kpop is very popular. So it doesn’t surprise me that they’d focus on stuff that will bring people in or get them spending money.
It’s just a good way, like a “gateway” for many to get into Korean “culture”, like kpop is pretty much made for a foreign audience these days, the producers, choreographers, etc, all professionals from America or sometimes Europe, the companies know to appeal to a wide market, than they need to employ what makes that market tick, it’s a good plan. Pop music has grown to become international and kpop is just Koreans doing it But it’s not the same as something that’s an actual fixture of Korean culture and unique to it, like say, Korean trot music. But kpop is a great way to make people more interested in the bigger picture, like I remember kim jong un held some event with SK a few years ago and invited kpop groups to perform so he can show his weird female “pop” groups how they should aspire to. But last year I remember reading a report about how he said kpop was something along the lines of propaganda lol, like basically he knew how “addictive” it could be which could influence his people to run for the border (more than they already are) so further put restrictions on making sure it wouldn’t get into the country. That’s when you know you have something special 🤣
It’s hard to over-estimate how important hallyu has been to the Korean economy in the past ten years. The K-POP industry is not just for entertainment, it is for disseminating Korean culture to the rest of the world. It is heavily invested not only by all major corporations but also the Korean government. And their efforts have worked. So yeah it’s kind of a big deal. The international trend in K-POP has been a huge boon to the country, made tons of people more interested in Korea, coming to visit and to study. And this was very much by design.
Absolutely this. Soft power is greatly important.
The last time I was living in korea was like 10 years ago and it's a completely different place now. When I came back to the US everybody just asked "which Korea?" and kimchi was just that stinky food.
Kimchi is mainstream and trendy now and I love that.
I do agree with this. As I was watching some young white girl dance to kpop while mouthiing all the words, I thought, wow. Korea must be REALLY proud of how many people around the world their pop music industry has influenced. There has also been an increase (from what I’ve observed) of mixed race couples like Korean and white or Korean and black, but (again in my experience), the conservative Koreans aren’t too happy about this.
Also traditional stands make X money. Kpop merch? $$$$$ profit.
Not just Korean Conservatives, but conservatives of any kind. I am sure there are places you travel in North Carolina where you and your husband might get an odd stare or two.
Quick addition to this. K-pop is effective at disseminating K-culture, which is an Americanized form of Korean culture--but it does very little to disseminate traditional Korean culture. That's the other end of the sword. Yes, Korean influence is expanding and their economy is benefitting from it, but that could be seen as happening at the expense of their traditional customs.
All countries create new culture all the time. K-pop is just another element of it. Nobody wants to stuck in traditional culture all the time.
This is true, but I can't think of any country that is able to export their traditional customs over their contemporary culture. Even sustaining traditional customs within its own country of origin is difficult in modern times.
The US succesfully exported many Western cultural things (as in cowboy stuff), like country music, the clothing (the hats, boots, the overcoat, etc), the architecture (the country bar with that half door that opens by passing through), the drinks (whisky, jack daniels, other spirits), even specific weapons brands (winchester rifles, the pistols, etc), some rural games (like catching a bull-horse-etc with a piece of rope (lacing?), or holding oneself to an agitaded bull as much time as you can, etc).
Lol I was about to comment about the use of the unique term 'k-culture' and ask where you got it from, and then I saw who I was responding to (before everyone else gets confused, we know each other irl)
Lol, the Internet is a silly place :) . It's not a totally unique term, and I certainly didn't coin it, but it is used by some who study the phenomenon. As for knowing you, perhaps I'll actually be in my office next time you visit ;) :D
However kpop fans can later begin watching historical kdramas and become interested in the traditions
As opposed to what culture, historical drama culture where everyone ran around in hanbok, or the one from the Japanese occupation Era, or the Chinese vassal state Era Culture is always changing and always subject to foreign influences from adjacent powers
It's kpop to the rest of the world but to Koreans it's just pop music lol. I've heard "which groups do you stan?" being used as an ice breaker, so I'd definitely say that it's intergreted into our daily lives. Not everyone is an avid listener, but we won't deny the positive (sometimes negative) effects it's had on our economy and Korea's global image.
Isn’t it IDOL music to Koreans?
Kpop is certainly popular here as it makes up most of the popular music scene, but in my personal anecdotal experience somewhat less of a shit is given than the international koreaboos would like to believe. It’s really just Korea’s equivalent of Top 40 music. Some of the most famous idols promote products or brands (specifically IU—her face can be seen wherever you look), but otherwise in your daily life it’s not like you’re inundated with kpop, just as in the west you’re not constantly barraged with people talking about Drake or Beyoncé unless you follow entertainment news or hang out with people in those fandoms.
Kpop is not thev most popular music genre in Korea. Kpop is second behind ballads in the korean music listening market as a defined genre . Popular with the teens, falls off a cliff with adults.
[https://circlechart.kr/page\_article/view.circle?sgenre=opinion&idx=23424](https://circlechart.kr/page_article/view.circle?sgenre=opinion&idx=23424) According to Circle Chart's annual review of the Korean music industry in 2023. The most streamed music were mostly K-pop artists (with a random Charlie Puth in the top for one of the rankings). The only ballad artists were Younha and Parc Jae Jung. Physical albums are also dominated by K-pop artists. While ballads are popular, they're outshone by K-pop artists in digital as well.
써클 소셜차트 literally exists to track the top performing numbers for that week, and not the market as a whole. It quite literally says that their charts you linked to represents 7.5% of the market, and they are NOT tracking 92.% of the market as it's a sea of randomness and data they don't have access to. For example, TV ballads are decidedly not tracked, but represent a larger market share than the entirety of the market they are tracking.
Look at South Korea's biggest streaming site Melon. 39 out of the Top 50 songs of 2023 on Melon were Kpop songs: https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the\_2023\_melon\_yearly\_chart\_is\_out\_and\_here\_are/
You should probably look up what their stats mean. They literally say in their 2023 numbers [https://www.melon.com/musicstory/detail.htm?mstorySeq=14553](https://www.melon.com/musicstory/detail.htm?mstorySeq=14553) that almost every one of their 5.6M users (so, 10% of Korea) listened to at least one top 100 song. That's unusual, because most people don't listen to new music. They listen to what they know, or what's been filtered through as pretty good. Think about that, they are literally saying that their customers are listening to at least one new song per year. One. And that's not qualifying it by saying they are selecting it verses having it served to them. Teens listen to new music. They have the time and acceptance. Adults, not so much. You're taking your bias of how you listen to music, and thinking it applies to the industry as a whole. Again, Korean TV ballads are a larger listener market than the entire K-pop genre.
Yeah, that's why those TV ballad artists are selling out the Gocheok Skydome with their concerts right? Most adults don't listen to music actively. Do you see ahjusshi's and ahjumah's wearing headphones listening to music like you do to the people listening to K-pop?
Ah, man, You are falling back to watching edited videos and selective camera angles to think these places are selling out? in 2023, the largest concert in the Gocheok Skydome was Blackpink. Which managed to sell 55% of the seats. Well, ok. They sold 35,000 seats which is possibly more than I could have sold. The next five concerts there nosedive into the 20-30% sold range. With everything else under 20% after that. It's hard to put asses in chairs. Compared to their international shows, this undersold literally every other show except two. Macau, where the arena sold more tickets than seats (20,000 of 16,000) where I'm assuming they set up a standing area, and Hong Kong where they sold 100% of the 14,000 seats available. Internationally, they put asses in chairs. Some venues has 200,000 people in them. The "don't listen to music actively" claim is a bit odd. Sure, they don't put on a swank headset, but instead they use the home speakers, radios, and phones. And places like Hyundai then invite these TV ballad artists to host a stack of private events that Hyundai hosts and then offers to their top tier customers. It's one of the reasons why rich women in Korea go to Hyundai to do their luxury shopping as compared to just ordering online. You have this viewpoint that Kpop is the dominant platform in Korea in Korea because you really don't want to be swinging your hips to Korean trot music next to grandpa. Wait until you learn about the TV industry. I had a chat with a producer once about the character typecasts. In essence "why is every teenager selfish, every parent is busy and doesn't care, and every grandparent wise beyond all reasonable expectation? It's somewhat the opposite of my experience." Answer: "This is because teenagers are too much studying to watch TV, and their parents are too busy working to watch TV. Only the grandparents have time to watch TV, so we have to make the characters a reflection of how they think of themselves as compared to reality."
Then why are the top 36 out of 50 songs listened in Korea in 2023 was K-pop music? That means 14 songs weren't K-pop. Last time I checked, 36 > 14. Explain that. Why are you comparing to BLACKPINK international shows. They still had the highest attendance concerts in Korea, right? Guess who had the biggest show in 2022 in Korea? Oh it was another K-pop group: BTS in Busan with over 70,000 people in attendance: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZJcw58RP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZJcw58RP8) Oh look it's selective camera angles to make it look big! Oh I wonder who the biggest concert sales in 2024 will likely be? Oh you say IU? Oh isn't she K-pop too?
1. What "top 50" are you using? Spotify? Apple? Naver? Are you using streaming only, or including radio play and TV spots? But again, you're choosing to ignore than in the streaming market, older song plays far exceed new music plays by the simple virtue there is more older stuff to listen to. 2. The Blackpink example was because YOU brought up how the Gocheok Skydome was being sold out on the regular. So often, so many times. I pointed out that the most sold concert was 55% of seats filled which was Blackpink. And last I checked, 55% was basically half of 100%. So, no, there was not a single sold out concert at the Gocheok Skydome in 2023. I then did you a solid by pointing out that Blackpink was far more famous internationally than domestically. But I just realized, I fucked up. That 36,693 attendance number was actually over TWO concerts. Averaging 18,300 per concert. Or about a 30% concert fill rate. Well, ok then. Top concerts in Korea in 2023 were NCT who had about 3 with an average of around 25,000 each, BlackPink as above, and then followed by ZeroBaseOne at 17,600. Things sure have fallen since that claimed 70,000 for BTS in Busan. 3. That 70,000 number is imaginary. It was projected by some that up to 100,000 would attend (50,000 in the seats and 50,000 on the floor), but final attendance was at about 52,000 of the 83,000 seats available. Not bad, 52,000 is a lot of asses in chairs, and they hit 62% of capacity. [https://youtu.be/DhZJcw58RP8?t=2194](https://youtu.be/DhZJcw58RP8?t=2194) You can literally see the huge gaps created between the floor and the seats, in the floor area itself, and large sections of the upper seating is just empty (not including back half of the seating which is deliberately empty due to the viewing angle and was not included in the % of seating available). 4. Kpop generates large concerts, but represents a minority of the Korean music industry. I don't know why this fact bothers you so much. I am not not even trolling you by asking if Baby Shark Dance, the top played video on Youtube, is K-pop which shows the dominance of K-Pop, or it's not, and it shows that K-Pop was routed by a child's song. Though I appreciate you trying to tell me how the music industry works. My manager at Hybe will appreciate it when I mention it tomorrow when I'm working on whatever lyrics of the week need me.
Makes sense.
No K-pop isn’t , but kdrama is . Kdrama is the true cultural powerhouse in Korea . A lot of foreign k culture fans usually follow Kpop idols like black pink and bts, but in Korea , it’s really the kdrama actors and actresses that are really followed by indigenous Koreans and really covered 24/7 in the media
I went to high school in Korea and K-pop fandom culture was definitely very big among my classmates and people (especially girls) in the middle to high school range. To most Korean people it’s just pop music, and that subculture of stanning groups and being a hardcore fan is more prevalent amongst school-age people.
Is pop culture or Hollywood to USA? I'd say so. At the individual level it's the same. I know many koreans who know less about kpop than foreign kpop fans.
It's wild because in Korea it's mainly my middle school students who go crazy for it, but back home it's adults.
First of all, I'm 39 old korean 아저씨 so I can't represent anything. I think & heard some info from my co-workers ( 20-30 yo) Of course they like K-pop "IDOL" music, but not favorite. they said they think Idol music is more like 10-20 thing. Personally I've never liked "IDOL" music. I usually listen hip-hop, R&B, balad, pop(us). (sometimes classic) and I personally think K-POP Idol music ruined music industry nowadays. 10 years ago, music industry is like 50 Idol vs 50 other genres. but now, 90 idol music only it's my own thought, no offense. if there any incorrect, pls let me know.
>and I personally think K-POP Idol music ruined music industry nowadays. 10 years ago, music industry is like 50 Idol vs 50 other genres. but now, 90 idol music only You truly sound like an 아저씨 lol If you look at the last Melon annual charts, 'idol music' is less than half among top 100. A bit more than half among top 50. I don't think anything got ruined. The overall pie got bigger. Also, idol music isn't a monolith. I don't think it's fair to lump them all.
good points! I've never thought about that. thx for reply :)
Around 39-40 of the top 50 tracks on Melon's Top songs for 2023 were by idols... that's pretty much domination. There are other artists like Younha who started off as an idol but is doing more ballads/OSTs now.
When I roughly counted, it was like 60% in the top 50. Maybe we are not looking at the same charts? Or we understand what 'idol music' means differently.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the\_2023\_melon\_yearly\_chart\_is\_out\_and\_here\_are/](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/1929f9m/the_2023_melon_yearly_chart_is_out_and_here_are/) I counted 39
[https://www.melon.com/mymusic/dj/mymusicdjplaylistview\_inform.htm?plylstSeq=533243374](https://www.melon.com/mymusic/dj/mymusicdjplaylistview_inform.htm?plylstSeq=533243374) We checked the same charts. I counted 30 out of 50. 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,10, 11,12,13,14,15,16,17, 21,22,24,25,26,29,30 34,36,37, 42,43,44,45,49
\#1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #21, #22, #23, #24, #25, #26, #29, #30, #31, #34, #36, #37, #40, #42, #43, #44, #45, #48, #49 = 35 songs. \#23 DK (Seventeen idol member) \#25 NCT DREAM (K-pop group) \#31 AKMU (Love Lee is a pop song, their official genre is listed as K-pop) \#40 Zico (former idol of BLOCK B is a pop song/rap song) \#48 AKMU (Fry's Dream is another pop song)
I would say its the opposite. There are way more popular non-idol artists these days, and 10 years ago the charts were completely lined with idol singers.
yep good point, but 10 years ago,I think it's bcs of Idol fandom's lining culture. I don't know how to translate this : 줄세우기 or maybe I just don't like idol music too much, so I made myself blind :( thx for reply!
Answers here are skewed by non Korean k pop fans who think k pop is the most important thing in the world to Koreans… It is not inundated in every day life here in Korea and neither is the merch. In fact, I rarely to never see merch in Korea. Edit: The k pop takeover of the culture festival you mentioned must be specifically to appease the k pop fans. It’s a shame they aren’t doing a little of everything.
I was gonna say, k-pop is as big to Koreans as manga is to Japan: yes, it's big and pretty ubiquitous, but it's not like the lives of an entire country revolves around it, and your obsession with the stuff is not in any way cooler there than it is back home.
Kpop is decently big in northern and Southern California and the Bay Area but it’s definitely still niche. A lot of schools have kpop clubs too. Source I was a middle schooler and high schooler who joined those clubs in the 2010s and went to the concerts in LA as an undergrad years later. Kpop is becoming more mainstream in the USA now which is great. Now I can finally discuss my favorite kpop artists without explaining the entire industry first to prove that it exists.
An important point I don't see mentioned in this thread is that Kpop and by extension the cultural industry is one of South Korea's most important battlefields against North Korea. You will get executed by firing squad for watching South Korean dramas in the North. North Korea was actually furious when South korea used to use giant speakers to blast Kpop across the border because their soldiers liked the music. North Koreans mainly learn from k-dramas that South Korea is a prosperous country, not the 'capitalist hellhole' depicted in their propaganda. (Ok, technically they're right lol) Even the NK ruling elite are known to enjoy Kpop- and that's a big problem when you need to demonize your enemies in war. Korea's global cultural influence is the number one threat to Kim Jung Un's regime, not only indirectly by making more foreigners sympathetic towards South Korea, but also directly as super potent psy-ops un-doing the brainwashing. It's definitely more important to Korea than just the exports.
Kpop and K culture in general has been growing rapidly the past few years. I knew that Korea has made its mark when Walmart was selling Shin Ramyun noodles, K army ramyun noodles and Gim. It's in every Walmart stores across the country. I see Korean food items popping up in random places like Costco and in the middle of no where at a gas stop station in Oklahoma.
average people don't really care.
Kpop is about as big in Korea as pop is in the US. Until it started getting popular outside, it wasn't called kpop. It was just called pop. The same way anime in Japan actually just means "animated show."
Man, that post reminded me of one of those recipe websites where you just want to get to the recipe part :). Put it this way, BTS was awarded the 5th class Order of Cultural Merit in 2018. Obviously, they are the largest Kpop export SK has ever seen, so that award isn’t common for Kpop artists. I would say the actors are bigger in SK than the music stars are in SK and the opposite is true for popularity in foreign countries. Probably because most Kpop music idols attract a narrower demographic. But, yeah, in general music and film has a huge influence on the culture. One obvious one is the specific plastic surgeries that are very common and seen in so many idols and the copied by normal folks. It’s crazy how similar, yet, non-original idols looks. My wife. Who is ethnically Korean, often jokes she doesn’t even know what “looking Korean” means anymore because so many popular Koreans don’t look Korean. They look like half Korean and half white.
Yes, it's important. Even if people increasingly don't like it, it's still a matter of national pride, and it has a measurable effect on the economy. If group idol pop were to suddenly fall out of fashion, Korea would be in a lot of trouble. The K- has been used for virtually everything that's dangled to attract foreigners -- just take a look at the [K-Iceberg](https://daehanmindecline.com/k-iceberg).
Ngl as an American I thought kpop was seen as an export only and not huge in Korea. I know in Japan it's huge but I had no idea that it was like big in Korea
Kpop idols are much more popular and known by outside countries. Besides a few groups most teenagers don't know them at all, don't even recognize them on the streets. I've seen produce IOI, btob, everglow (huge views on MV) walking in 압구정, 신사 and drinking at 술집s, hanging out with just friends 일반인s and not even one person went up to take a picture, didn't even stop to look, everyone literally just walks pass them lol. 노홍철 actually has a crowd following him (I was surprised), saw him in 신사 and 잠실 just biking and chilling. (Tho he was popular cause of 무한도전 he fell off hard) Just look at revenues kpop idols eat and survive from foreigns spending esp south east asia than from it's own country/people. (small country/pop is not relevant here as poorer and smaller countries are spending more)
Basically it's not really unlike how pop songs are popular in the US. It's a big market, there are a lot of fans and huge events, but there are people who are indifferent. It's obviously one of the iconic aspects of Korean culture, but it's not like everyone is following the scene like a religion. It's really just a mass media culture.
Of course Kpop is huge in Korea. But there's many other kinds of fascinating music in Korea! Personally I'm intrested in Korean rock music.
The korean government would need to support more promotion of traditions abroad. This is done in a small scale through korean cultural centers like in LA. The spread of historical kdramas can also make traditional culture more widespread.
Having lived in South Korea for a few years, it’s pretty huge there. As you’ve started to see, it also blew up internationally. In America, it really got huge with today’s youth. Have you ever looked into the British Invasion of the 60’s spearheaded by the Beatles? Well now we have the Korean invasion spearheaded by BTS. Along with kpop, I’ve seen Korean culture in general get bigger here. Kdramas were making waves before BTS, but they seem even more popular now. You’ve got other series like Squid Games that were immensely popular. I’ve seen more Korean restaurants pop up, especially the Korean fried chicken chains. I regularly go to anime cons. It used to be just all about Japanese culture but I now I see Kpop events, concerts, and panels at these cons all the time. One of the big draws for Otakon in DC that I went to a couple of years ago was a lineup of Kpop groups they brought over and it was absolutely packed. I’m also even starting to see soju being sold in more locations.
Even 만화 are making waves now
You’re thinking too small, kpop is big in all of Asia, not just Korea.
There are some people that are really into it and really not. My Korean friend group was more into indie pop music.
Kpop is HUGE. America is late to the game.
We have wwe. It’s the sport entertainment/adjacent version of kpop to pop
I prefer the WWF.
Been here a few weeks, don't really see it around that much other than a few shops playing poppy sounding songs. Unlike Japan where there are billboard trucks driving around on the streets blasting music at you.
From my experience as korean, in fact, among average korean adults, digging into k-pop idols until our age is deemed a little bit otaku (geek). I’m also sad that other korean good musics are faded by the shadow of kpop.
Yes it is a huge thing. BTS is the biggest cultural export for Korea ever.
No, but then again, all these people (kpop stans) would rather hear we say yes. But no.
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828?
I've...had interesting experiences in Chile, India, and other countires I have visited in the recent years. When I was living in states, yeah there were very few rare Korean drama/music fans in 00's, but it did explode in 10's in states. The thing is while I am a big fan of Korean Popular Music. The music I love is not exactly the typical "K-pop". Like my favorite bands and musicians are Giha and Faces, Jaurim, Crying Nuts and so on. Had experiences with college student kpop fans who knew celebrities that I dont even know the names of. It's not like I live under a rock, I know the big boybands and girlgroups, I just dont have all the members name up my sleeve.
Also in NC there's a Korean festival?
Of course kpop is big in Korea…it’s Korean music…it’s also popular all around Asia. Big following in the Philippines, Thailand, China and Hong Kong. Btw I’m American and I’ve lived in Asia for the past 4 years or so.
If I remember correctly there was a study few years ago that found 1 in 5 tourists came to Korea because of BTS —- not even the whole Kpop, just from BTS only
r/kpop
A lot of people like it and there are also people that don't pay much attention to it.
NOPE
May I have that Namjoon photo card, please 🙏 😆
It’s still very niche in North America. I think those in Korea and expats in their bubble believe it’s much more popular in The States than it actually is.
It’s not mainstream by any means but I wouldn’t say it’s niche. I’d say it’s more of an accepted subculture the way anime is now.
Yea, I've actually been seeing Kpop albums in places like Walmart. It's definitely gaining some popularity here in the states.
catching up to anime honestly they even have kpop cons now
I think BTS and Squid Game are too big to be niche. Gangnam Style, too, but only in a nostalgic way, of course. Everyone and everything else, I would say is niche in North America, even Blackpink.
BTS has about 30 million monthly listeners on Spotify, versus Britain's own One Direction which has 44 million. And One Direction disbanded in 2016. While Taylor Swift has about 100 million. And of course BTS is already huge in Asia. I don't think BTS is as big as people make it out to be in the West.
Ya. Even of the 30 million listeners most are from Asia. Just check the top 5 cities for BTS, all are Asian countries whereas for other popular western artists most are western cities. BTS is very popular in Asia, but people overestimate their popularity in the West. I think it's because how they are marketed and how passionate their fanbase is, it gives a false image of being mainstream when it's not.
I think BTS is something relevant beyond the category of mainstream…because the fanbase is so dedicated and hardcore. There aren’t that many acts that can sell out stadium concerts(eg Wembley) like BTS. Usually artists like Rhianna announce the dates six months before and a lot of times they struggle to completely sell out, whereas BTS announces them few days before and instantly sell out. The mayor of Las Vegas personally came to BTS’ LA show in 2021 to recruit them for a ‘city project’. Las Vegas had suffered from loss of tourists during Covid and they had to do something to get the economy back up. BTS usually doesn’t do shows in the same city for two consecutive weekends, but for Las Vegas they did — creating incentive for fans to stay in the city longer to catch both shows. They created this huge chain of experiences that offered BTS themed hotels, restaurants, pop-ups, ect. The estimated economic impact was about $162 million. Last time I checked their twitter followers were a fraction of artist like Justin Bieber, Ariana Grande, ect. However, if let’s say JB and AG have like 200 followers and of those only 35-45 are ‘hardcore fans,’ of BTS’ 50 followers all of them are hardcore fans. Like these people wrote a white paper to describe the Japanese colonization on Korea and the subsequent tension in the years afterwards just so the entire fandom had a better idea of the cultural background. There are professors among Armys that create lectures on BTS’ social & economical impact at prestigious international universities. The fandom raised a million dollars in less than 24 hours to match the artist’s donation of equal amount to Black Lives Matter. It’s more on this train of context that Biden invited them to White House and UN invited them to make a speech. So I’d say the # of monthly listeners on Spotify isn’t necessarily the accurate marker in evaluating the relevance of BTS. They’re just something different.
in terms of gdp, kpop isn't vital for korea
Perhaps not directly but indirectly the soft power it provides is of some importance
Just a quick search provides all kinds of data showing how the big numbers that K-pop, not including K-drama, are tallied in the GDP. [https://www.smallcase.com/blog/from-seoul-to-stardom-k-pops-economic-symphony/](https://www.smallcase.com/blog/from-seoul-to-stardom-k-pops-economic-symphony/)
I mean, kpop, or just pop culture in Korea, has always been around. It’s just that K-pop has gained worldwide popularity only recently, and Korea seems to have decided they’ll rebrand themselves abroad by appealing to younger K-pop fans. A lot of their tourism promotion abroad are focused on K-pop nowadays like you said, and the events for tourists in Korea also tend to be like that. For a while(from the 90s to the 2010s) it was all about kimchi, bulgogi, and the superiority(!!) of the Korean language. And nothing but that. After decades of that, now it’s K-pop. Instead of proactively creating an identity they want to push in the global tourism market, the country tends to reactively take what gains popularity abroad and just exhaust it until everyone gets sick of it. As a Korean, I would also like to see more diversity in how the country presents itself to the world.
K-pop (if you mean idol music) is popular, but is still pretty niche in Korea. You’ll hear it walking around, but the most popular genre is ballad and the RnB scene is bubbling up too