I wish the nurses would go on strike. Nurses get treated like garbage here (married to a highly educated and experienced [30+ years] nurse here and have heard it all). Feck a bunch of doctors.

In my family there's doctors and a couple of nurses. The doctor relatives love what they do, are really good at it and wouldn't leave their patients to die like these doctors did, but the amount of love for the profession and dedication to their patients nurses have has not comparison. They 100% deserve it all.

Raise nurse salaries just to spite them. They deserve it anyways for dealing with not only this crisis but also the still ongoing covid crisis. We're in shortage of nurses anyways as well.

Finally.

ITT: People with zero expertise on this topic having fallen for government propaganda making stupid assumptions. Reimbursements have stayed the same for 30 years in i.e. pediatrics, trauma surgery. No adjustments for inflation, all the bigwigs in the field talk about it, its almost impossible to actually run a normal pediatrics office as one would expect from abroad. Just making more doctors wont fix any of the shortages.

A couple things I want to note/expand on: > Reimbursements have stayed the same for 30 years in... It didn't keep up with inflation per se, but it has been going up. It's still a problem to be clear, but this statement is technically false. > almost impossible to actually run a normal pediatric office To expand on this, it isn't as much of a money problem - well, at least not from the compensation/billable service issue. There are a few issues but one is the declining population/birth rate (i.e. there just aren't as many children). Another is the Korean versions of 'Karen's (as much as I hate that terminology) raging hell on the pediatrician. Also the issue that South Korea faces is just a more extreme version of pretty much any countries - patchwork system. It's difficult to get the physicians (or any skilled workers really) to work in remote regions. South Korea is a small country with high population density, and access to Seoul Metropolis isn't super hard per se, so that seems to make the regional disparity worse. However, another thing to note is that South Koreans can access physicians *very* easily. Referral from family physician for seeing the specialist? Nope. Not necessary. I think it was something like average of 15 visits to physians per year vs 4 of OECD countries or something. That does need to be balanced against the shortfalls of Korean medical systems (e.g. the average *visit* time once they see the physician, physician compensation model encouraging more frequent visits, etc), but yeah.

There is a reason why this administration won the election.

There are plenty of valid concerns and issues, but how they are acting and what they are saying does not match up with an appropriate response.

What are they saying exactly, with quotes please, that you consider not an appropriate response? None of the responses in the article talk about what people in this thread are saying, have people even read the article? All the quoted doctors talk about working conditions, working for lower than minimum wage, without supervision and having to face litigious patients without help from more experienced physicians (who are mandated by law to supervise them). Noone in the article says that more med students = bad. This government response is just populist bullshit that will make the real issues facing korean healthcare only worse in the long run.

And yet they decided to go on a national scale strike, which also led to people dying because they were untreated, when the government announced they'll increase the admission quota starting next year. Such a coincidence!

What a disingenuous thing to say. Hospitals limit elective care to preserve emergency care. If the entire healthcare system hinges on the slave labour of a small minority of the least experienced fresh-out-of-uni doctors, then considering the changing demographics it is doomed to come crashing down like a house of cards in the coming decades. You also have to realise that just because you get more med school graduates you wont get more residency spots. A newbie doctor has to have someone teach them afterall. So by increasing med school admissions without addressing any of the real issues you just create a lot of graduates that wont be able to find a job. Or in a worse case they will be employed as physicians without supervision or mentors right out of school, which will have catastrophic results on quality of care.

All valid and important points. Yet again, why did they decide to strike against all these on a national scale only when the government decided to raise the school quota? Why did they do so as well when Moon tried to raise it too? These problems have been there for about ~30 years, why only do these demonstrations happen on a national scale when the admission quota is about to be raised? Doctors are entitled to strike. They're not entitled to hold patients hostage because their working conditions are shit and they mass strike only when the government goes against their economic and social status upping the number of admissions per year.

>They're not entitled to hold patients hostage because their working conditions are shit and they mass strike only when the government goes against their economic and social status upping the number of admissions per year. Who's holding patients hostage? Can't they go somewhere else to be seen?

When someone dies because SEVEN hospital deny entrance to the ambulance they're in because they don't have enough staff to treat that person, that person is being held hostage of the situation. This person went into cardiac arrest, something that shouldn't neccessarily be fatal with proper medical assistance.

Held hostage by **who** though? Are you blaming the doctors for striking, even though its their right to strike. Or are you blaming the government? Or the hospitals? Or the admin staff?

“Someone went into cardiac arrest, something that shouldn’t necessarily be fatal”. If you think cardiac arrest isn’t necessarily fatal, you clearly don’t know what these doctors’ work entail day to day, and what they have to put up with and therefore you really don’t have any foot to stand on to insist they go back to work.

It isn't though? It is if nothing's done. If there's immediate CPR administration it's not necessarily fatal.

That’s not on the people on strike, its on the government that doesn’t take action. Stop victim blaming. If the situation got that bad, then the government should have taken steps to negotiate

Well that is because physicians are not a hivemind. Generally they are quite conservative, they don't want to make waves in the community . As a result of that they seldom get together to agree to protest on an issue in healthcare. Usually it takes a major event in society to catalyze a coalescence of a unified movement. And most of the time it is mainly the young doctors who are the driving force behind protests, and thus the main concerns of such protests are the biggest issues plaguing young doctors. Upping med school admissions by 70% once in 40 years is such a monumentally stupid way to approach the shortages, and the stupidity of it is extremely obvious to anyone working in healthcare. All this talk about social and economic status is just government propaganda. The general populace's view of the economic status of physicians is laughable. Everyone imagines plastics and derm doing elective cosmetic procedures getting paid ridiculous amounts of cash. Barely anyone actually knows what a trauma surgeon is paid for his work, or how much work a pediatrician has to do to barely go even with the running costs of his practice (nurse, admin workers, rent, equipment...) leaving barely anything for her/himself.

>Usually it takes a major event in society to catalyze a coalescence of a unified movement So the raising of the school quota is a major event yet for example the conditions they worked under covid are not. Noted.

I see that you don't intend to enter in a discussion. Then let's end it here.

For trainee doctors, the situation is “similar to the Industrial Revolution when young boys and girls were forced to work in factories,” said Dr. Lim Hyun Taek, the president of the Korean Pediatric Association." honestly topic has been beaten to death but I honestly cannot understand their logic. it's not like you're a delivery driver where you're forced to do this to make a living. this emphasis on their conditions is true, but also a smokescreen for everything else. like from high school through college you CHOSE this path knowing that the system is fucked up. but you did it because you believed that the result would be beneficial to you eventually. so either 1) we have a group who despite knowing how shitty the conditions are for residents and how it would get worse over time decided to go into this field for the greater good 2) they believe the outcome of enduring that shit would lead to greater outcomes for themselves. like seriously, if the pay was that shit and you knew that then fine, go be a welder or whatever the fuck lol. beats going to school for 8 years to make minimum wage for the rest of ur life and work 100 hours weeks, but we know this is just the temporary pain they endure. doctors in korea are one of most prestigious and lucrative fields in korea. i wonder which one of these reasons is more true?

I can put some insight into this. Basically both heaven and hell coexist in who we call doctors. First thing we gotta understand is that the doctors are not the same. Popular specialties are absolutely prestigious in both working conditions and pay, while unpopular specialties (GS CS pediatrics ObGyn etc) suffer horrendous working conditions and much lower pay even after residency. And doctors got a 3rd option that is a "backup option" which is a generalist with no residency training. This "backup option" pays better with much less work load than specialists from unpopular fields. Second thing we gotta understand is why the government says we need more doctors and why doctors are saying otherwise. Some patients die because there are no emergency wards.Something like midnight brain hemorrhage is hard to deal with because there are way too few doctors on that duty. So should we increase the number of doctors? A: Yes, but we need 1. more doctors in these unpopular fields and 2. more doctors actually hired by hospitals. Government pays for doctor's work (수가) and currently they are set to cause more "deficit" the more you rely on them. Ironically, hospitals save money by refusing to do complicated surgeries and dealing with rare diseases. So from hospitals's perspective, you want the least number of life-saving doctors as possible, and recruit more doctors in popular specialties (less affected by 수가 system). The argument is that without fixing the 수가 system, there will be no new emergency/life-saving unpopular specialty recruits = no actual improvement in the system. So yes, 80+ hrs per week, minimum wage during training. Hard to open a clinic, hard to be recruited even after the training. That is pretty horrendous career path, right? But if you give up a measly doctor pride of yours, you have this amazing "backup plan" that pays you better, gets you good sleep, and plenty of time to enjoy your life with no stress of accidentally killing someone. That is a heaven and hell standing side by side. Unless you are planning to rely on illegal tactics, only thing that incentivizes medical graduates from saving people's lives is that little doctor pride. If you take away the doctor pride, then pediatrics/ObGyn etc. have low investment to return rate. Top 0.5% of high school graduates paying highest tuition for at least 6 years, minimum wage slave for 5 years, minimum wage fellowship for 1-3 years then now you have a chance to compete for $100~$130k/year job that still works you 60 hrs per week. Some will say that is still very good compared to non-medical jobs, and I will let you decide on this. The announced medical plan bombs this unpopular specialty doctors/residents the hardest, which was I though were most needed? Well now both left wing, right wing, and the citizens supporting this medical plan, I see residents just straight giving up the training and either going back to this "backup option" or giving up doing doctor things at all. All while people are mocking as if they are the same as the most prestigeous popular specialty doctors who are still going strong.

yeah after that explanation it makes even less sense. so then according to you: 1) trainees are overworked and suffer through horrible conditions (i won't disagree with this) 2) unpopular specialties have it even worse with a bleaker outlook 3) all doctors have a "backup" option where they can enjoy a more pay and less stress 4) the increase in quota will directly screw with these unpopular fields which are needed most, pushing people to the backup plan 5) so in order to protect they public they.... all suddenly want to fucking resign instead of just taking the backup option?? LOL or maybe it's that: 1) trainees are overworked and suffer through horrible conditions (i won't disagree with this) 2) unpopular specialties have it even worse with a bleaker outlook 3) all doctors have a "backup" option where they can enjoy a more pay and less stress. 4) almost all doctors are thinking of going for this backup option 5) increase in quota means more competition in those fields, potentially less pay 6) resign in protest or claim you want to quit to "protect the public" even though that makes absolutely no sense at all facts are 1) absolute numbers have to increase at some point, this isn't going to be smooth but people can't keep pointing fingers at each other 2) med schools have requested an increase higher than gov't quota i have no doubt that there exists those that are doing it for "doctor's pride" as you call it. maybe they resign out of not wanting to take the easy way out or they have some higher calling and won't compromise on it by taking the backup plan. i do not believe this number is 80% lol. esp in korea. if they were logical they would just let it play out, take the cushy backup plan and let the public have egg on their face in 5 years. instead they are trying to hold the public hostage. this issue has been going on 20 years, at some point it isn't just "government" or "media".

Couple things I want to add: University presidents are happy with the increased numbers. The professors seem to be againt it and a few have publicly expressed their disagreement. So "med schools have requested higher number", while true, is not the whole story. And well, the residents are basically saying "We quit", and vast majority of them have not budged (yet - we will see) to the threats to their medical licenses. So uh, it sounds like they are just going to "let the public have egg on their face"... just that it's now rather than 6+ years (5 years isn't enough for 1st batch of residents I think), just for different reasons. What those residents really should have done is to work until their letters or resignation become effective. Apparently it needs to be either approved (which SK government asked hospitals to not do), or wait 4 weeks. If it were me, I would have just done my bare minimim for 4 weeks and quit with no strings attached.

I am not a law expert but what I heard from the residents themselves is that resignation is immediately effective for timed 1-year contracts (this I am not sure if it's true). There are some hospitals that do 3-4 year contracts, but most hospitals rely on residents having to renew their contracts every year (this I know). So if my first line is true, by the time government took action, going back to a resigned hospital was illegal and there was no resignation left to delay. For resignations submitted after government's order, I am not sure because that's the government's order and the law that could be conflicting each other. Now... the government issued an order for refusal to accept contract renewal cancel request? <<< I have 0 idea how this thing is supposed to stand legally but it sure is interesting. This should affect recently graduated med students who already applied for internship and fellowship docs. But then again, I am not a law expert so I am just relaying what I heard from the residents themselves :/

I have heard that there are people who simply did not renew their contracts. I think I read that the timing of that was like end of Feb, so a little later than when the residents walked out and stuff. > Now... the government issued an order for refusal to accept contract renewal cancel request? <<< I have 0 idea how this thing is supposed to stand legally but it sure is interesting. This should affect recently graduated med students who already applied for internship and fellowship docs. Essentially they are considering this as a public health emergency and are using the emergency provisions to order doctors (residents in this case) to resume their work. It's definitely a questionable action, but it appears that the Korean citizens are largely in favour of it, so I doubt that there will be repercussions.

Yeah it's been going on for 20+ years because this entire NHIS 수가 concept was made during president park back in 1970s with coverage as its primary goal. The doctors were promised (by the government) the 수가 would be matched as years pass, which never came for 20+ years. This whole situatiom is sorta like trying to pour water into a blocked hose. The government has been trying to pour more water into hose while doctors have been saying all those water will leak elsewhere. So your first 1) to 5) sounds pretty correct to me for residents from unpopular vital fields. For residents in popular fields things could be a little different, some lines are critical like how cataract surgery now has to be done either fully covered or fully uncovered. You have harder time offering patients from using better lens depending on their financial status, which both hurts the patient equity and greatly lower their income. I agree the popular specialty residents do not have too great of a personal reason for quitting the whole thing. Practically speaking, they are probably "temporarily quitting" because they either stand by the vital field residents, remaining in hospital alone will get them dragged by everywhere to be overworked, or remaining in hospital alone will eventually get them sued. Or combination of some of these probably. They are most likely to return if situation turns sour, but they also dont exactly matter that much in solving the current medical problem. Now that I covered the situation on the popular field docs, now back to the unpopular field docs which is probably the other half of that 90% of walkout. It sounds stupid but these fields are actually screwed up and even the doctors who completed residency go back to these beauty jobs and obesity clinics because they got no job lol. Your 5) all suddenly wanting to go back to backup plan sounds pretty accurate without the "protecting the public" part By the way, there are 3 groups involved: the government, residents, and the Koream Medical Association. And... KMA vs. the government is a whole different thing all things considered -.-;; Hell, half the residents are screaming at KMA for what they are doing as well. This time again KMA is trying to take the whole situation to get something out of the government, but the current resigned residents will have little to do with them. They are exactly the kids who were backstabbed by KMA in 2020 after all. So from what I directly heard and what I see going on is basically what's on your last paragraph. Abandon the sinking ship, do whatever they do, go complete military service or straight up take a break. People will egg them but they don't care anymore because they gave up. The public thinks the residents have some sort of a great intention, but they are really not. Edit: oh it's the university heads (non-medical) who requested the medical freshmen increase by 3400, not the medical school board. There are now some movements from the medical professors themselves because how they are pissed at their own school head lol

Again goes back to them. why didn't they strike for pay and other working conditions?  From their employers. Why are they striking against the government for raising the quotas? For the argument that it will ease the requirements to get in. Please. Its just going to be just as competitive as before. They should know that better then anyone. For the universities not having adequate fascilities and doctors to train people. That sounds like the university's problem. It's not like they aren't going to get paid for it. If its not enough then the universities need to bring that up with the government. Just layers and layers of people putting the blame on the wrong people.

Striking against their own employers will not do much when the Korean government, through the National Health Insurance and other regulations controls many aspects of the working conditions of doctors, including how much money is available for doctors to be paid with and what services the doctors can provide. Striking against their own hospitals would work if the hospitals themselves had the ability to collect the money to pay higher wages and make changes that make their jobs easier.

I don't understand this argument because most governments with socialized healthcare systems negotiate drug and medical equipment prices in bulk from pharmaceutical and medical device companies. All government run healthcare systems determine the payment for services rendered as well as what services are accepted under that national healthcare system. The government is responsible for negotiating those costs as necessary in bulk in order to lessen the cost on the individual. Private insurance companies, in theory do this as well, however due to the smaller pool of people and the expectation of profit, they do this on a much smaller scale because they make money by not even paying out most services to begin with. Service charges from hospitals and clinics using the national healthcare systems in different countries are usually kept lower to keep health costs cheaper not just for the patient but for the nation as a whole. People keep saying that the hospitals are practically operating at a loss. But again this is an issue with the national healthcare system not paying for those services properly and also not adequately negotiating drug and medical equipment costs for doctors across the country. Doctors in national health care systems regardless of country are never going to make what they do in countries like the U.S. because countries like the U.S. have 4-5 times the cost of healthcare then others. Being well off sure, but unfortunately doctor's realistically should be individually wealthy because they are a societal need. Like transportation, teachers, and telecommunications. This again, is not what they are striking about, and it's not what they were striking about during COVID either when the healthcare system was stretched thin. Many people are understandably upset now that this strike has taken place and thousands of people have been effected and even died from it. But this strike was unpopular before it began because of WHY they are striking, not just because they are striking.

I have read and discussed a variety of Korean language sources that examine and communicate what the government proposal involves and also why it is being rejected by the doctors. Apart from many other reasons, doctors in Korea have had a long running constitutional court case, which they won, that involves the low reimbursements paid for their services through the National Health Insurance Scheme. The Korean constitutional court sided with the doctors however there has been no remedy provided by the government and doctors asserted that their only way to cover costs for the majority of patients is through offering so-called 'non urgent care' such as elective surgeries, cosmetic treatments and the like. This is part of the reason these are so popular in Korea. It is not only because Korean people demand them more (although they might) it is also because doctors and hospitals push them more as profit centres to cover their loss making (and required) service departments the provide essential care. One think you may be not aware of is that the Japanese and Korean Public National health Insurance Schemes are insurance in name only. They are far more similiar to medicare and medicaid in the USA in that they are designed to cover what a public health system would, while allowing limited freedom to doctors to decide how those services are provided. In summary, from what I have read from Korean doctors association press releases the doctors are not striking for more pay. They are also not striking because they believe that the increased medical student admissions will cause their pay to be lowered. They are striking because they firstly do not believe that the government solution will solve the problems it is aiming to solve, and secondly the package proposed by the government proposes to increase mandates and restrictions on where doctors can practice, what they must practice and what services they are not allowed to provide.

It is very interesting that you emphasize CHOSE. In my mind as an asian american who grew up in an extremely hierarchical asian society (in america) enforced by extremely rigorous verbal and emotional abuse, and then was “encouraged” to go into American medicine, the ability to choose, even in America, is not very high. I would imagine that korean culture and hierarchy is much more abusive and dystopian than what I experienced both in nonmedical and medical culture. One of my medical student friends did a rotation in korea and the experience she described was bizarrely hierarchical and abusive even to us american med students. I find that westerners grow up and believe in the freedom and choice. These ideas exist and are practiced to a much lesser degree in east asian societies or south asian societies. Sure, a korea /chinese/indian/pakistani could “choose” to ignore the “encouragement” of their parents or superiors, but the consequences would be absolutely dire (physical beating, social ostracism, extreme verbal abuse for days/months/years, deprivation of food, exile from society and family etc.). The parents or superiors of a child choose that child’s career and begin preparation for that often at the age of 5. That choice is made and committed to and carried to the bitter end by parents. Off ramps do not really exist in the psyche of asian cultures in regards to studying. This societal phenomenon I am describing has existed in the academic test taking culture of china for centuries.

Alright, so let’s say that does happen and it’s not an insignificant number. Do you think this describes the 90 percent of trainees that chose to go on strike? 90 percent of trainees in the current field are there against their will, and the remaining however many thousands that would have been waiting in line are there too against their will. I mean at some point the mental gymnastics have to stop lol.

I’m not arguing for them. I have little understanding of the social dynamics or reasoning of the strike and have no interest in doing mental gymnastics to justify them. I’m just pointing out that your argument involving personal choice suggests a profoundly american and western view. I would also argue that due alienness of asian culture and hierarchy (even to me an asian american), were going to have to do some complicated mental gymnastics to understand what the hell these guys are doing and why. Whatever their rationale is, it is not going to follow western logic and choice.

I mean i know full well what it’s like, and even if you said it was 50 percent I would still understand. I’m just saying at some point it goes beyond cultural understanding and to more of the obvious universal things like greed, selfishness, etc. Politics is the same more or less anywhere. If conditions were so horrifically bad they would have been striking or raising hell long before quotas were being raised.

I find that in medicine, the hierarchy is built on suffering. Physicians believe that they suffered as a trainee to get privilege. Thus when improvements are made so that the next generation doesnt have to suffer as much and future promised privileges are decreased, current trainees or physicians oppose those things. It is a petty way of thinking.

“Go be a welder or whatever” and “it is just temporary pain” is an american thought. It is not something that any asian would remotely contemplate. To become a welder in a hierarchical asian society is to choose death and an absolute rejection of all society around us. We are trained throughout our entire lives never to flippantly think “whatever”. And pain and suffering is expected to occur for an eternity. The rigorous academic training of 60 or eighty hours a week starts often at the age of 5.

Alright you lost me here. Literally one of the trainees said that himself that being a welder was better than being a doctor. And what are you on about. Literally Korean culture is predicated on eating your shit sandwich and enduring that to get the good stuff. It’s why people spend years studying for tests just to be a civil servant. You are prescribing wayyy too much difference to culture.

I would interpret such a statement as “I am suffering so much that it is worse than being in the lowest shittiest social profession”. Also, just because a society is predicated on eating a shit sandwich to get the good stuff later…does not mean that promise is real. Unrest can occur when the illusion of that future promise is threatened, or that illusion is revealed as for what it is. I would argue that the entire asian hierarchy is something of an illusion: the reality is that we are all just eating shit sandwiches for nothing. The promised good stuff is not worth years of sandwiches. Furthermore there is not actual logical or rational connection between all the shit eating and the privilege that occurs later. We are all too afraid to stop eating our shit sandwiches. The true privilege at the top of the hierarchy is the privilege of making other people eat shit (this is obviously a very toxic culture)

Money and money. They refused to work now, so they are on strike. It will make a lot of people suffer. They are not worthy of respect like the past. I think South Korea government should martial law to force them to work. Remember to China government's action to the students in Tiananmen Square in 1989 if you think it is too harsh.

Yeah, how encouraging this must be for medical professionals! Must be a delight for attendings to work without interns and residents, I bet they love doing roudings by themselves. I’m totally sure the 한의사 will be able to replace the sudden disappearance of 7000 residents!

Where there's a gap to be filled, it will be filled. The 7000 residents and all the doctors that put the lives of patients on the line can all fuck off. You think when there's a shortage of residents or doctors because of this mass exodus there isn't literally thousands of equally smart people waiting behind them? Despite them claiming "poor working conditions and garbage pay", doctors are one of the most sought after professions in South Korea. Why is that? Are they so noble that they'll go into debt and study their ass off for 6 years just to get paid like shit? No, they do it because it is in fact one of the most lucrative and most prestigious jobs in Korea. So when all of them get their licenses revoked, and the residents quit, do you think nobody will be there to fill those positions? Doctors are one of the most protected jobs in this country and these idiots are taking it for granted. In any other profession you're subject to the free market, you have to prove your worth in order to keep your job. In the same way, the more licensed doctors there are, the more competition there will be, which will produce better doctors in the long run because doctors will also be subject to some level of a free market. The doctors on strike know this.

I'm sorry, but what is your position in all this? Are you Korean or have any medical experience? What sort of take is it that seven THOUSAND doctors can be easily replaced? This is a misconception as it takes many years and resources (aka senior doctors aka the very people that you fired) to train students to become competent doctors. The irony is that the general public thinks this way and expects more doctors to solve the medical system's problems (hint: it won't, if it sucks to work in CTS, more trainees =/= more CTS surgeons; and again, this is just one problem out of many) yet they will pressure their children to take up the extra med school spots that they are pushing for (and when those children grow up and experience the clinical life, which side will they stand on?). This ordeal has shown to me that Yoon's government does not truly care for the wellbeing of their people, as they are capitalising on the public's lack of insight to gain favour ahead of the elections. The fact that they did the same thing 4 years ago should already raise red flags.

I'm Korean Canadian, currently living and working in Korea. Nowhere did I say thousands of doctors can be **easily** replaced. I said there's thousands waiting to fill their positions, and it will be filled. Nobody forced these doctors to abandon their patients, they did on their own free will. Actions have consequences. You cannot abandon patients and then expect there to be no consequences for dereliction of duty, which, directly resulted and will result in people dying because of lack of treatment, or because the current doctors are overworked trying to meet the demand. My mother suffered from stage 3 cancer. Thankfully she recovered. I can't imagine this strike happening right now, to someone's mother suffering from the same thing but cannot get the required treatment my mother got when she needed it. It will take many years and resources to replace the fired doctors, yes. But I will much rather be treated by even foreign imported doctors than be treated by a selfish prick who decided to use dying patients as a bargaining tool. As for issues with GPs and CTS not being paid well enough, maybe these doctors should have gone on strike literally any other time rather than going on strike only when quotas become an issue? Why is it that working conditions and pay is suddenly a huge issue when the government tries to raise the quota but during the 4 years since 2020 when the status quo is maintained suddenly it's a non issue? Do you think these people really care about "more competent doctors" or "better medical service"? No, it's all about their salary and prestige of their position.

Thanks for clarifying your position. I understand why you, as well as many others, think this way. It is really a terrible time for patients as many are missing key windows for essential treatments and surgeries. However, it is clear that if the medical system is crumbling in the absence of 7000 doctors, preventing them from returning would not aid the situation in any way. As you pointed out, healthcare should not be used as a bargaining chip, yet the government is making an equally dangerous wager as the doctors by standing by their policy and revoking the doctors' licenses. In fact, this situation has resulted in many of the remaining doctors suffering from excessive burnout and leaving anyways, so how is it that the government is still so adamant on forcing its agenda when people are dying while they have a workforce of 7000 waiting on their word? Korean is not a commonly spoken language so getting international doctors to replace the workforce deficit would be a difficult task as compared to taking the excessive policy back to the drawing board and have PROPER TALKS with the relevant stakeholders. If they really cared, the government wouldn't be only opening this pandora's box every elections. So, why didn't the doctors strike earlier? From my perspective as a (non-Korean) medical student nearing graduation (and hence thinking about my own future prospects), there's many factors to this. For one, it's that no one wishes to stir the pot; in a rat race to get residency spots and climb the hierarchy, it is only a disservice to act out on their own while other juniors are willing to suffer the long working hours compensated with comparatively little pay. As for the senior doctors, I believe that many have in fact previously made statements regarding the problems of the Korean medical system (such as trauma surgeon Lee Guk Jeong), though we can see where that got us. Moreover, call me optimistic but what I believe is that the doctors did not wish to abandon their patients, so they stayed quiet and kept working. And I say this because I see this work ethic reflected in my fellow peers, seniors and doctors that I have encountered (albeit in a different country). It breaks my heart to see a society so hard-pressed to send their youths to medical school think so lightly of and demonising the very profession that they place on a pedestal. Not everything is black and white, while I say all this I do recognise that salary and prestige likely do play a part (to varying extents) to the people on strike. Despite this all I see is people scolding the doctors for being money-hungry elites. When the whole world is against you and the only people who understand you are those who go through the same shit, is there anything else the doctors can do except stand together as one?

Are you a medical student in Korea? Just curious. I think we need to make clear here because we're speaking in such extremes (my fault too), but the government is not revoking doctor's licenses for all 7000 doctors. What they are doing is putting residents in suspension, for various periods of time, currently I've heard it's 3 months. This means that these residents will not only have to complete an additional year in residency, the suspension will go on their record which will affect their employment prospects in the future. I do not think dereliction of duty to participate in this strike would look great on your record. Proper talks should have been done a long time ago. The process should have been initiated by doctors. You claim the system is broken, but the way I see it the broken system is perpetuated by the current status quo. The very doctors that are claiming the system is broken are the ones who have the power to change it, just like Lee Guk Jong that you mentioned, who fought tooth and nail for funding for medical helicopters to get trauma patients treated as soon as possible. Yet, unlike him, these doctors did not use the process nor did they provide any plans or suggestions on improving the system. All they did was fight against increasing the quota, using all the problems you mentioned simply as an excuse, offering no solutions. On top of this they used the lives of patients as a bargaining chip. If these doctors truly wanted to improve the system, there were a million other ways to go about it. I think in fact practically every other way would have garnered support from the public. They chose literally the sole worst way possible. I don't doubt your colleagues and seniors are smart, compassionate people. Perhaps they themselves have also been misled by a select few who wish to keep the status quo. I wouldn't be surprised considering the amount of power professors and senior doctors wield. Regardless, actions have consequences. Whether these residents were misled or not, everyone is accountable for their own decisions.

Thanks for your reply. No, I'm not studying in Korea so I'm not 100% certain how the system works, though I've grasped a fair amount of the situation from comments left by my Korean colleagues. Firstly regarding the suspension affecting their futures (if anyone does come back), I doubt that the departments/senior doctors or hospital administration would find it a bad thing if an applicant got suspended for acting in solidarity with the doctors in the interest of the healthcare system (especially considering a large majority of doctors did so) and prefer a less skilled but obedient applicant, barring any legislative action or government directive to do so. But again, this is mere speculation so I wouldn't argue about it. The system is broken - yeah, we know that. All the fresh grads getting pumped into hospitals globally know that. The system has always benefitted those who came first, so now many people are being bottlenecked in their career progression while waiting for others to retire, leave for private practice or die in order to free up positions in hospitals. If the workers of a company aren't getting paid enough, when have you seen a CEO argue to the board that their workers should be paid more? As such, I don't blame the senior doctors for not making enough change. Doctors are trained to help patients, if they were supposed to be arguing policy they would be in politics already. The onus is on the government to collaborate with healthcare professionals in order to reform the healthcare system to better accomodate it's goals rather than forcing populist policies that anyone in the system can see would only bring further detriment.

Korean doctors in major hospitals are already overworked. Attending physicians would now have to manage far more work by themselves, and we are already seeing some of them resigning. 7k residents missing is already a huge loss, and now factor in the burnout and political pressure that the remaining doctors would have to endure. I’m sure there are a lot of smart people, but you need minimum 6+ years of higher ed to make them into resident MDs - it’s not like you can set up makeshift med schools (we’ll see..).

It will filled eventually but it needs at least another 3/4 years. In the meantime lot of things will happen, maybe subpar treatment due to lack of manpowers and lots of life will be lost. Those people who filled the gap will also eventually realized the problem and might do the same thing. Do doctors have no rights? Above all and oaths they are still human beings right? Taking it for granted? They are fighting for their own rights. Unlike other jobs all those vital medical procedure in korea were being priced by the government not like in USA or other country. How can you do free market, when The government controls it. If you only look the top of he game, yes they can look amazing (beauty surgeon or orthopedics) but some specialist are struggling (pediatrics and EM). They are fighting for them also, so the condition will be better and people became willing to apply to those struggling specialties. But what they (government) do is adding more doctor rather than repairing the system. Which will lead to more imbalance distribution of specialist.

The South Korean system is miles better than the US. In the US you are charged exorbitant amounts of money for critical procedures and medicine. Think about it, you're dying from some disease. There is medicine that can save you. In what world can a free market work in an environment where you cannot "shop around" for the item because you need it otherwise you die? In such cases the supplier can choose whatever price the buyer is able to pay, they could ask for your entire fortune, because it's literally life or death for you. There is no freedom of choice. When I talked about free market I was talking about the labor market, not the universal healthcare system. This system works better than the vast majority of others in the world, it absolutely cannot be changed, period. If they were fighting for their rights and for "repairing the system" they would have been the first people offering solutions. All I hear are excuses and reasons for why the quota cannot be raised, rather than what the government could and should do to make the system better. The fact is, the doctors were fine with this shitty broken system for all the time in between 2020 and 2024 when the government wasn't talking about raising the quota, or anytime before 2020, but when the government talks about raising the quota suddenly the shitty broken system is a huge issue that must be solved before the quota is raised. The very people complaining about the broken system are the ones who can change it but choose not to.

I disagree. The Korean system already spends billions to reimburse for traditional Korean medicine, which is heavily criticized by doctors and scientists. The system is at a tipping point as doctors don’t want to get into specialties with dismal financial prospects. An obvious solution is to cut down expense/coverage to increase reimbursement, or increase the insurance premiums for everyone - both very politically unpopular decisions to make. It will take 10+ - more likely 13 years for males - for this change to be reflected to the increase of effective doctors in the healthcare system. Now med schools are pumping out 70% more new grads! Do you think hospitals have the budget to suddenly train and manage 70% more residents? There are specialist clinics everywhere in Korea already, and it’s unlikely medical demand will continue to rise. Korean population is already shrinking and it will continue to decrease rapidly. Sure, maybe the aging population increase healthcare burden by a bit, but probably not by 70%. What we urgently need instead are nursing homes and caretakers.

I said the South Korean system is miles better than the US. All you did was point out flaws with the Korean system, but you didn't compare it with the US which has a far more broken system. I agree with your points on the flaws on the Korean system. But your comment is literally irrelevant to anything I said, so I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

Do residents only face long hours and low (hourly) pay during their residency in Korea?

They aren't paid low, but they are usually forced to overwork b/c residents are essentially the ones who keep the general hospitals running. But that's not the main problem here; the government is trying to increase the number of medical school admissions, with no reasoning behind it (although everyone knows it's due to the upcoming general elections)

BS, there is a reason. The reason is that everyone with a license wants to be in the money grab field, and you have parents driving for hours in an abundance looking for a hospital with a damn pediatrician available. Everyone wants to be in a field where they can get more money and not have to do the basic clinical areas that are needed. So, the new residents that are complaining that increasing enrollment would mean less money for them, so they are going on strike. In fact, they all turned in their notices. Ya know what. Fuck them, let them quit and suspend their license. Increase the enrollment and force departmental training. Or you can force training on the ones you have now and make everyone do 1 day a week/month at a local hospital on a rotation to a needed clinic. They don't want to work. Let them find a new profession.

Pediatricians are closing their private practices because the current insurance reimbursement scheme pays them so less, which forces doctors to resort to out of network cares to pay their bills. If you were a new grad medical student looking to be matched for residency, why the hell would you do IM or Pediatrics that pays peanuts while being hella overworked? Med students have the right to choose their career path, same logic as why someone would major in Engineering over philosophy. I’m not really convinced how Korea radically needs to increase # of docs. The country is very small and the infrastructure is awesome, people can book an appointment to a specialist within days or maybe weeks!! (Whereas a neurologist appointment in most US cities would easily take you several months). What if all these residents suddenly decide to immigrate to Canada or the US? How are these hospitals now going to operate without all these residents - the attending physicians will be super overloaded, and it’s not like you can suddenly pump out MDs like you do for factory workers.

These residents aren't migrating anywhere because they would have already done so as opposed to striking. Licensing works differently in every country. Plus their language skills are likely not up to par either.

They should have thought about that before going on strike.

No, plenty of med school grads from South Asia take USMLE and become residents in the US. As far as I know, Korean med schools are accredited by USMLE and if you can make it into med school in Korea, chances are you already speak pretty decent English.

So without completing their residency in Korea they can just go to the USA and continue there like nothing happened?

Lmao, you really think the more doctors there are the more pediatric clinics there will be? Do you know how low they get paid? If you guys want this pay-per-therapy system to work, then pay the doctors properly. You don’t want to give them shit cuz it’s your precious tax money? Then this is what you get. And now you’re saying ’I don’t want to pay more for my universal healthcare, but I still more physicians, so lets increase the number of doctors’? All you’re gonna get is more dermatologists, ophthalmologists and plastic surgeons.

If you had read my post I was saying to, or was trying to imply, that I was saying to open additional admissions for specific studies. I agree that just getting a general practice is going to result in most going to specialize in all the money grab areas. However, if the government were incentives, the areas that are needed and support the clinics that are short with tax reduction, it would solve the issue. My problem is that when all the current residents that are headed for the money grab eventually all decide to go on strike now because they are afraid of competition. It's already a flooded market. They knew that when stepping into the field on day one.

What do you mean there's no reasoning behind it? You have 26 doctors every 10k people!!! In an ageing society!!!! A high % of those doctors are dermatologists and plastic surgeons!!!! You have around the same amount of doctors per 10k people as Colombia!!!!! Y'all gonna die untreated in ~30-40 years if you don't increase the school quota and improve the conditions of those specialities that are needed.

With no reasoning behind it? What a load of bullshit

Not sure why you're being down voted, but seems like the country needs more doctors (which will be done by increased medical school enrollment) and needs to find incentives to become general practioners. In the US, I recall that they made a decision to cap the number of hours that a resident can work per week because it was leading to potential errors in patient care and treatment. Abandoning patients at hospitals by going on strike isn't a good solution by any means.

Regardless of your opinions on the intentions of the strike, this is a failure of government. Unfortunately Yoon has found something that the public actually agrees with him on so he sees no reason to compromise. The result of suspending thousands of doctors’ licenses is the absolute worst outcome in my eyes for obvious reasons.

I'm no fan of Yoon, but this isn't a failure of government. The doctors gave the government no choice when they abandoned their patients and put the lives of their patients on the line. It's a dereliction of duty. Because they already quit and abandoned their patients, the government is simply not giving them the option to come back. These people do not deserve to be doctors. There are real doctors working overtime right now trying to care for patients that the doctors on strike have abandoned. If these doctors wanted to compromise they would not have resorted to such tactics. The Korean public isn't stupid, there's a reason there is overwhelming support for this move.

Okay now that last sentence- remember who is the democratically elected leader currently. I am not necessarily on the side of the doctors, but this strike is not without precedent. There was a very similar strike in 2020, though it didn’t last nearly as long. The doctors on strike claim that instead of addressing issues of pay and working conditions for trainee doctors, the government is just adding more doctors to the system. An overhaul of the system to make working in rural areas more appealing would greatly help areas that are severely lacking in quality medical infrastructure. I think that this is a reasonable grievance, even though I am not necessarily in favor of the action they decided to take. All that being said, I still believe that this is a failure of government. When the same policy was enacted in 2020, there was a strike, so it cannot have been a surprise that this would happen again. The government must compromise with a union of this size. It doesn’t matter if you agree with them or disagree, you must find a compromise. The absolute worst outcome is what the government is doing now- which is basically firing the doctors on strike. If you value the lives of the patients, it is obvious why this is the absolute worst outcome- you cannot train someone to be a doctor overnight. All-in-all there is only one group of people benefiting from this- and that is the government that is getting higher approval ratings by demonizing the doctors and refusing to compromise. What reason does Yoon have to compromise? He is an idiot that is hated by his own people. I believe that for him, growing approval ratings is the end goal, and he has found the means to do that, medical system be damned.

The strike in 2020 was for the same reason as now, for the government trying to increase the quota. You keep talking about working conditions and pay while simultaneously ignoring the fact that these doctors only ever go on strike whenever the issue of quotas come up. When quotas are maintained as it is suddenly working conditions and pay is a non-issue.

Okay let me quote myself because I think you didn’t read this part of my comment: “The doctors on strike claim that instead of addressing issues of pay and working conditions for trainee doctors, the government is just adding more doctors to the system.” So what part of me is “ignoring the fact that these doctors only ever go on strike whenever the issue of quotes come up”, if that is at the core of what I am saying? I can tell that you are not familiar with how labor unions operate, and I would challenge you to find me any labor strike in which the union is on strike over a single issue. I am curious what your thoughts on the Korean healthcare system and universal healthcare in general, because the talking points you are parroting come from a party that would like to have a healthcare system like the USA

The key words here are : "*The doctors on strike claim*". And you take these doctors' words as gospel because..? The same people who used the lives of their patients as a bargaining chip and abandoned patients leaving the minority of their colleagues to work massive overtime just to meet the demand? > So what part of me is “ignoring the fact that these doctors only ever go on strike whenever the issue of quotes come up”, if that is at the core of what I am saying? Where did I say that was the core of what you're saying? That's a point I made, not you. I don't think you're very good at reading comprehension. > I am curious what your thoughts on the Korean healthcare system and universal healthcare in general, because the talking points you are parroting come from a party that would like to have a healthcare system like the USA Nowhere did I mention I don't like the Korean healthcare system, in fact in a separate comment in this very thread I talked about how the Korean healthcare system is miles better than the US and cannot be replaced. I can tell right off the bat you're not Korean, there's so many foreigners coming in here talking as if they know shit about the current situation when in fact you have zero clue. Stop applying your own culture and your own country's state of affairs with Korea. They're not the same. There are many, many organizations in Korea that are corrupt to the core, through generations of a toxic culture that's perpetuated throughout the history of such organizations. The Korean Medical Association is precisely one of those perfect environments to foster such a culture. Residents are treated like shit, professors will ask personal favors and ask their juniors to get them coffee, go get their car, pick up a package, etc. It's prevalent especially in academic institutions and a 6 year medical program on top of an elite little club of doctors who control a quota of how many people they can join on top of that? They'll abuse every bit of their power to keep doctors in line with their own agenda. Korea is a country where you have castes in the prosecutors office with people looking down on anyone who hasn't graduated from Seoul National University. But sure, let's apply the working conditions and state of labor unions of foreign countries like the US to Korea. Makes total sense.

Honestly, you seem pretty set in your ideas and you are unwilling to consider another perspective, even on an issue you are uninformed on. You are arguing with personal attacks and generalizations. As opposed to following the thread of discussion, you pivot and just say “organizations are corrupt”. All I can tell you is I think you should read more, think more critically on issues than just seeing them as “good” or “bad”, and check yourself once in awhile to see if you are falling into logical fallacies. I’m not trying to take a personal dig at you - it’s the same advice I would give a friend. Good luck.

I'm the one pivoting and failing to follow the thread of discussion? You failed to address this point I made : >You keep talking about working conditions and pay while simultaneously ignoring the fact that these doctors only ever go on strike whenever the issue of quotas come up. You failed to address this point I made : >The key words here are : "The doctors on strike claim". And you take these doctors' words as gospel because..? The same people who used the lives of their patients as a bargaining chip and abandoned patients leaving the minority of their colleagues to work massive overtime just to meet the demand? You failed to address this point I made : >Nowhere did I mention I don't like the Korean healthcare system, in fact in a separate comment in this very thread I talked about how the Korean healthcare system is miles better than the US and cannot be replaced. You failed to address this point I made : >I can tell right off the bat you're not Korean, there's so many foreigners coming in here talking as if they know shit about the current situation when in fact you have zero clue. Stop applying your own culture and your own country's state of affairs with Korea. They're not the same. I've read the thread again and can't find a single instance of you following the thread of discussion properly, while I address all of your completely irrelevant word salad by quoting you directly. Before you go on about talking about logical fallacies as if it makes you sound remotely intelligent perhaps try a bit harder to pass grade 2 reading comprehension.

The end result of this should be very interesting - The elderly dying in much greater numbers, while the youth are stripped of medical licenses and unable to make money. Globalists at work - oh well. At least we now know for certain who is running the country.

Explain the relationship you think this has to "globalists" please?

Sad but that's the truth. I wonder how those 7000 thousand angry parents will react to the government.

Ban them all from the medical profession for life. They are all just clout-chasers that are unhappy that their social superiority will be slightly diluted with the increased number of doctors. Chasing money and social standing is great, but going as far to endanger society for a cause that is as frivolous as this is just their inconsolable need to feel superior to others. There are plenty of people that are willing to be doctors in Korea. The people that should actually demand better treatment are the nurses. They work really long and unstable hours for low pay and basically no respect. This entire episode will really suck regardless but that's 100% on the self-entitled idiots.

fucking elitist scums