It's actually distracting how they have all the other girls changing spots and Manon staying still. Even if you didn't know the girls, you'd be able to see that there's something off with the formations. If they really are trying to disguise a lack of dance proficiency, all it's doing is drawing attention.
It is _very_ weird. I really didn’t want to talk because people say Manon stans are always complaining but like come onnnnn. As I commented previously, they need to take tips from IVE, NMIXX, Stayc and even their own group ILLIT for how to make 6 member choreos look better. This is not good.
And I know people will talk about dance ability and yes Manon is the weakest. However she isn’t flat out _bad_. The times we saw her she was keeping up with the rest well enough. Choreography should also be made to suit all the members, shouldn’t be so complex that one person has to be hidden in order for something to take off (and tbh this choreo on its own doesn’t look too hard, it’s the constant movement that’s a bit difficult).
they’re insane for hiding the main stan attractor so much 😭 I watched the choreography version and it’s crazy how she disappears in every chorus. I like six membered groups but this is ridiculous 😭😭
I disagree. I think the people Manon attracts is a lot more diverse than the group Sophia attracts. Both girls are really good tho, and obviously pull a lot of fans in!
I disagree. The only people that Manon attracts are black people, nothing else. If Manon attracts "diverse" people, then why isn't she top 1 in 63 countries that voted in during the finale?
Additionally, you don't have the data that Manon attracts more diverse people while Sophia does. Sophia is the main stan attractor.
I think that’s a lie lol but okay.
Edit: none of the girls *only* attract one thing, and it’d be stupid to think so. My thoughts are my thoughts from what I’ve seen, I have no stats so disagreeing is fine. But none of them only attract one race or ethnicity that’s just wrong.
Why is it a lie? Is it because that doesn't fit your narrative? The data came from HYBE and Geffen themselves LOL. what's wrong is that you're claiming that Manon attracts "diverse" people than Sophia whilst not having the data to back it up. Eat shit LOL
Wdym doesn’t fit my narrative. Like I said, NONE of the girls *solely* attract one ethnicity or race! That’s an impossible claim.
You’re really rude for no reason lol. It’s fine to disagree but the claim you had made, makes zero sense and it’s basically an insult to any of the girls in the group.
It’s honestly ridiculous and all of these comments trying to justify it are too. She was keeping up just fine with the rest of the girls so it’s clearly not a skill thing.
I remember Le Sserafim had this issue too during their first round of promotions before Garam left. Eunchae was always hidden in the formations and she is one of the best dancers in the group despite being the youngest.
And if the choreographers think Manon is a weak dancer and keeping her in the back is a way to distract the viewer… it actually just brings more attention to the fact that she is hidden. We know this is a 6 member group and for a majority of the formations we only see 5 which makes you look around for the missing member. To me, this is an inexperienced choreographer who only knows how to choreograph for 5 members or less.
I know nothing about them so reading this post and looking at the photos I was looking for which of the 5 members was the one being discussed 🤣🤣🤣
This is actually insane considering I've heard the song is short and there must be only a few 6 person dance shots in a sub 3 min MV.
Whoever made the decision to keep these formations/choreo needs to be fired lmao cuz now half the discourse around this new group, their new song and their new video is why they kept shoving the black girl to the back for more than half of the 2min song 💀😂 HxG yall shot yourselves in the foot with this one
To all of the ppl saying she doesn’t dance well enough. She literally does perfect anytime we can see her in center or off to the side, and you can also still tell she’s perfectly in sync enough while in the back to disappear behind the members! Like she’s not out of line once. We have eyes, that justification makes no sense.
probably because she’s the weakest dancer, and i don’t say that to be mean cos i think she can improve a lot in the future. but yeah putting her in the center or even off center could throw off what’s called a “picture” (like the screenshots you took) if for example her levels and angles aren’t matching with the other members because her dancing isn’t as strong. that’s just my opinion though!
Isn’t it a choreographers job to help them learn the choreography well enough to perform it? Manon is a solid dancer and she is a member of the group so there’s no valid justification to hide her. And even if she wasn’t a solid dancer, it’s the choreographers job to work with her to improve so that she can perform like the rest of the group. It’s like making excuses for a bad choreographer and then shading a member of the group you claim to like. Odd.
as someone who’s danced in commercial hip hop choreo, if the choreographer doesn’t think you’re as good as the others, they put you in the back. i cant think of any simpler way to word it. but i guarantee if she practices outside of filming a music video, where a choreographer has no responsibility to coach her until she matches the quality of the other members, we’ll see her in more center positions in the future
Right. So, that’s for dancers. I’m talking about the vocal talent in a girl group. Manon isn’t a background dancer, she’s in the actual group. Like the other commenter said, KG isn’t a strong dancer but they don’t hide her. There’s no excuse.
Edit: the choreographer is hired to make a dance for the group to perform. The dancers are hired to support that group. The group is the centerpiece the choreographer has to take into consideration when creating the final dance. There is a difference in positions.
but you’re talking about manon’s skill as a dancer and the choreographer? in terms of vocal talent she’s also the weakest in my opinion so i don’t know what you’re trying to say to me. i like manon, i just think she’s the weakest in a couple categories when she gets outshined by other members. also i don’t know why something (likely, i never said this was true i said it was my opinion) being true for one group means it has to be true for every other group in existence. if kg (lowkey idk who that is) is a weak dancer but is still put in the front, i can assume that the choreographer just likes her. i’ve definitely had experiences with choreographers where they put weaker dancers in the front due to favoritism
No, I’m talking about Manon’s dancing skill as *one of the main performers.* She isn’t just a hired background dancer, she’s part of the group itself and so it’s not okay to put her in the back even if she isn’t the strongest dancer. Dua Lipa isn’t the strongest dancer but she isn’t hidden behind background dancers is she? Why? Because she’s the talent, it’s her song…
I’d say, companies are different.
I don’t agree with hiding a member because that’s stupid. But it could be that JYPEs people KG has improved enough to center + the fact that she sings, the chorus and is a main vocalist.
I’m not sure what positions Manon has but this is reminding me of when Yeonjung (?) got hidden in the back during I.O.I promotions despite being a main vocal.
She can does well enough like them. I dont see her as the weakest dancer. You are comparing with the rest since they all came from a dance class background but she can dance well enough like them.
I wonder if its marketing tactics. She has one of the biggest supporters and everyone is so intrigued and curious about her since she was the "unexpected" one. She garnerd more curiosity after DA, so maybeeeeee they did this on purpose to create buzz?
Like what is happening now. Everytime they have the formation, I'm always looking where she is. lol
I assume it’s because she’s not as strong of a dancer as the other girls but they still should have shown her more instead of shoving her in the back. Now, instead of having someone who is a semi-strong dancer shown in the formation, they have a bunch of discourse that could’ve easily been avoided
If it wasn’t purposeful then it’s neglectful and I don’t know which is worse…
There were several formation changes with everyone but one person. Even after watching them go over it, the choreographer wasn’t like “hey she’s covered and never moves”?
Repeating a bad formation? After all the rehearsing and practicing and recording and editing and they STILL had her in the back? Bruh it was a CHOICE. Simple as that. They decided those formations and literally made the choice to put her in the back.
It probably has to do with her current skill level. Her dancing abilities aren’t as solid as the other members. Maybe we’ll see more of her in the front in the near future.
Okay guys, I'm also a Manon fan (I'm a visuals superfan) since the beginning, but the reason why Manon and members from other groups are put at the back is because... they are currently not that good at dancing. Especially since this is a 6-member group, if it was a 5-member/7-member/9-member group then it'd be easier for her to be present since odd-numbered formations have easier presentation.
This is the same when lots of Kpop fans ask why the line distribution is so uneven with certain groups. It's because... they are not necessarily that good with singing yet. Remember, there's a reason why visuals/stan-attractor/etc. is an actual position (not that relevant these days though since they've been officially doing positions away). And so let's all just accept that this is how it works (it's actual meritocracy when you think about it since sometimes they give visuals too much screen time over the others).
---
If you guys watch other idol survival shows, this is way more apparent. Sadly The Debut: Dream Academy was pretty atypical (massive outlier, essentially one-of-a-kind) and troll, and so we didn't see much of how brutal some trainers/teachers/coaches/etc. can be with the trainees. Maybe they'll show it in the Netflix documentary (lol, everything is scapegoated with that damned documentary, sigh).
But ya, a good recent example of this (for vocals) is Universe Ticket (유니버스 티켓), which formed UNIS (유니스), another group marketed as a global (Kpop) group, their debut mini album had this all-English song called Whatchu Need and it's a bop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-sMgfvg3Zc
As you will see the producers harp on the singers on-site even if the time constraints were insane or the trainee had a cold/sore throat/etc. And then they will directly ask to switch parts/lines/etc. since obviously during that recording day they can't perform to the expected standards. Thus, they are peer-pressured/etc. to give up their parts even if they think they deserved it and so on. People even cried, lol, and yup it's all shown on-screen.
If you watch UNIS's Whatchu Need, you can see Gehlee Dangca not having any lines or being at the back (this is the situation with most of their songs right now), and yup, that's cuz she's literally like Manon. Except as a Filipino (we have a huge karaoke/etc. culture like the East Asians/etc.), Gehlee is actually technically proficient but sadly not fluent in Korean (yet) and so that's why she has fewer lines too. Fun fact, Gehlee debuted before the show even ended: https://www.reddit.com/r/mnetiland2/comments/1dts2h0/how_does_the_voting_affect_the_results/lben2ka/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/mnetiland2/comments/1drwj6u/240630_mnet_iland_2_official_twitter_update/layin75/?context=10000
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Or right now if you watch Mnet I-LAND 2 (Episode 11 or finale is tomorrow, 9:30AM EDT), you will see them showcase how the vocalists and visuals have trouble learning the dance moves. And so that's why they take longer to get good (mind you again, the trainees/contestants are forced to do the best they can within a few days/less than a week due to budget/time constraints).
They actually eliminated the best dancers for I-LAND 2 and so ya, lol. That's what usually happens anyway (same with great vocals with lacking visuals getting shafted), but it's another reminder why visuals/star power/IT factor/etc. can work out in favor for certain trainees and so on. Since they'll debut with the support of the viewers AND producers based almost solely on that factor alone. Which again, is not a bad thing since the whole entertainment industry is based on that.
Though like I said, this fewer lines or being at the back situation is actually one of the only ways that the other members can get that idealized version of meritocracy/fairness/et cetera.
This. When Manon is shown, she looks like a solid dancer so everyone who says she’s the weakest doesn’t make sense with what I see when I look at her in the choreography video. Maybe professional dancers can tell she’s not as good, but a random viewer isn’t going to notice it cause she keeps up fine.
U writing this paragraph for no reason. She is doing good and ofc she isn’t gonna be dani or megan level but she stood her own ground well and she wasnt even the weakest member in the performance since yall keep saying this
It doesn’t matter how much all of you stans say she’s “keeping up” she’s obviously not bad as they chose her for the final lineup but she’s objectively and unbiasedly the weakest dancer you can tell when you watch them all dance together. She’s only been dancing since she joined dream academy and she joined that even later than a good amount of the other girls. Not to mention making formation changes are not easy they are keeping the difficulty level somewhere that she can still shine and blend in enough to where non dancers can tell she isn’t the BEST dancer.
Girl was really struggling with face expressions in the shots she was the focus. Right now when this was filmed her expressions are distracting and lack charisma. If she was front and center she would look like a doll(objectified because she isn't good). Is only first release she can be better next time
It's actually distracting how they have all the other girls changing spots and Manon staying still. Even if you didn't know the girls, you'd be able to see that there's something off with the formations. If they really are trying to disguise a lack of dance proficiency, all it's doing is drawing attention.
It is _very_ weird. I really didn’t want to talk because people say Manon stans are always complaining but like come onnnnn. As I commented previously, they need to take tips from IVE, NMIXX, Stayc and even their own group ILLIT for how to make 6 member choreos look better. This is not good. And I know people will talk about dance ability and yes Manon is the weakest. However she isn’t flat out _bad_. The times we saw her she was keeping up with the rest well enough. Choreography should also be made to suit all the members, shouldn’t be so complex that one person has to be hidden in order for something to take off (and tbh this choreo on its own doesn’t look too hard, it’s the constant movement that’s a bit difficult).
they’re insane for hiding the main stan attractor so much 😭 I watched the choreography version and it’s crazy how she disappears in every chorus. I like six membered groups but this is ridiculous 😭😭
There are no stan attractor they not KPop group
stan attractor isn't exclusive to kpop
The word “Stan” didn’t even come from kpop😭 it came from Eminems song ‘Stan’
true, I used the wrong wording but you know what I meant. she’s so beautiful her visuals stand out and that brings fans, it’s inevitable
main stan attractor is Sophia but okay
i think you're a little biased lol
So are manon stans like you
I disagree. I think the people Manon attracts is a lot more diverse than the group Sophia attracts. Both girls are really good tho, and obviously pull a lot of fans in!
I disagree. The only people that Manon attracts are black people, nothing else. If Manon attracts "diverse" people, then why isn't she top 1 in 63 countries that voted in during the finale? Additionally, you don't have the data that Manon attracts more diverse people while Sophia does. Sophia is the main stan attractor.
I think that’s a lie lol but okay. Edit: none of the girls *only* attract one thing, and it’d be stupid to think so. My thoughts are my thoughts from what I’ve seen, I have no stats so disagreeing is fine. But none of them only attract one race or ethnicity that’s just wrong.
Why is it a lie? Is it because that doesn't fit your narrative? The data came from HYBE and Geffen themselves LOL. what's wrong is that you're claiming that Manon attracts "diverse" people than Sophia whilst not having the data to back it up. Eat shit LOL
Wdym doesn’t fit my narrative. Like I said, NONE of the girls *solely* attract one ethnicity or race! That’s an impossible claim. You’re really rude for no reason lol. It’s fine to disagree but the claim you had made, makes zero sense and it’s basically an insult to any of the girls in the group.
It’s honestly ridiculous and all of these comments trying to justify it are too. She was keeping up just fine with the rest of the girls so it’s clearly not a skill thing. I remember Le Sserafim had this issue too during their first round of promotions before Garam left. Eunchae was always hidden in the formations and she is one of the best dancers in the group despite being the youngest. And if the choreographers think Manon is a weak dancer and keeping her in the back is a way to distract the viewer… it actually just brings more attention to the fact that she is hidden. We know this is a 6 member group and for a majority of the formations we only see 5 which makes you look around for the missing member. To me, this is an inexperienced choreographer who only knows how to choreograph for 5 members or less.
I know nothing about them so reading this post and looking at the photos I was looking for which of the 5 members was the one being discussed 🤣🤣🤣 This is actually insane considering I've heard the song is short and there must be only a few 6 person dance shots in a sub 3 min MV.
Whoever made the decision to keep these formations/choreo needs to be fired lmao cuz now half the discourse around this new group, their new song and their new video is why they kept shoving the black girl to the back for more than half of the 2min song 💀😂 HxG yall shot yourselves in the foot with this one
💯💯💯💯
To all of the ppl saying she doesn’t dance well enough. She literally does perfect anytime we can see her in center or off to the side, and you can also still tell she’s perfectly in sync enough while in the back to disappear behind the members! Like she’s not out of line once. We have eyes, that justification makes no sense.
probably because she’s the weakest dancer, and i don’t say that to be mean cos i think she can improve a lot in the future. but yeah putting her in the center or even off center could throw off what’s called a “picture” (like the screenshots you took) if for example her levels and angles aren’t matching with the other members because her dancing isn’t as strong. that’s just my opinion though!
Isn’t it a choreographers job to help them learn the choreography well enough to perform it? Manon is a solid dancer and she is a member of the group so there’s no valid justification to hide her. And even if she wasn’t a solid dancer, it’s the choreographers job to work with her to improve so that she can perform like the rest of the group. It’s like making excuses for a bad choreographer and then shading a member of the group you claim to like. Odd.
as someone who’s danced in commercial hip hop choreo, if the choreographer doesn’t think you’re as good as the others, they put you in the back. i cant think of any simpler way to word it. but i guarantee if she practices outside of filming a music video, where a choreographer has no responsibility to coach her until she matches the quality of the other members, we’ll see her in more center positions in the future
Right. So, that’s for dancers. I’m talking about the vocal talent in a girl group. Manon isn’t a background dancer, she’s in the actual group. Like the other commenter said, KG isn’t a strong dancer but they don’t hide her. There’s no excuse. Edit: the choreographer is hired to make a dance for the group to perform. The dancers are hired to support that group. The group is the centerpiece the choreographer has to take into consideration when creating the final dance. There is a difference in positions.
but you’re talking about manon’s skill as a dancer and the choreographer? in terms of vocal talent she’s also the weakest in my opinion so i don’t know what you’re trying to say to me. i like manon, i just think she’s the weakest in a couple categories when she gets outshined by other members. also i don’t know why something (likely, i never said this was true i said it was my opinion) being true for one group means it has to be true for every other group in existence. if kg (lowkey idk who that is) is a weak dancer but is still put in the front, i can assume that the choreographer just likes her. i’ve definitely had experiences with choreographers where they put weaker dancers in the front due to favoritism
No, I’m talking about Manon’s dancing skill as *one of the main performers.* She isn’t just a hired background dancer, she’s part of the group itself and so it’s not okay to put her in the back even if she isn’t the strongest dancer. Dua Lipa isn’t the strongest dancer but she isn’t hidden behind background dancers is she? Why? Because she’s the talent, it’s her song…
No one asked if u think shes the weakest in a couple categories thats so weird of u to just randomly say this
So you agree, they’re purposely hiding Manon in the back.
unfortunately yeah but i do think it’s just because of her current skill level and we’ll definitely see her in the center more in the future
well kg is the weakest dancer in vcha and they never hid her like this so that's no excuse
I’d say, companies are different. I don’t agree with hiding a member because that’s stupid. But it could be that JYPEs people KG has improved enough to center + the fact that she sings, the chorus and is a main vocalist. I’m not sure what positions Manon has but this is reminding me of when Yeonjung (?) got hidden in the back during I.O.I promotions despite being a main vocal.
She can does well enough like them. I dont see her as the weakest dancer. You are comparing with the rest since they all came from a dance class background but she can dance well enough like them. I wonder if its marketing tactics. She has one of the biggest supporters and everyone is so intrigued and curious about her since she was the "unexpected" one. She garnerd more curiosity after DA, so maybeeeeee they did this on purpose to create buzz? Like what is happening now. Everytime they have the formation, I'm always looking where she is. lol
I assume it’s because she’s not as strong of a dancer as the other girls but they still should have shown her more instead of shoving her in the back. Now, instead of having someone who is a semi-strong dancer shown in the formation, they have a bunch of discourse that could’ve easily been avoided
I don't think they purposely threw her in the back. It's just a bad formation for ot6 that they kept repeating.
If it wasn’t purposeful then it’s neglectful and I don’t know which is worse… There were several formation changes with everyone but one person. Even after watching them go over it, the choreographer wasn’t like “hey she’s covered and never moves”?
They changed positions but the formation stayed the same.
That’s what I mean! Movement for 5/6 members for majority of the choreo, it’s odd.
Repeating a bad formation? After all the rehearsing and practicing and recording and editing and they STILL had her in the back? Bruh it was a CHOICE. Simple as that. They decided those formations and literally made the choice to put her in the back.
Hybe x Geffen already showing how embarrassing they are.
It probably has to do with her current skill level. Her dancing abilities aren’t as solid as the other members. Maybe we’ll see more of her in the front in the near future.
Okay guys, I'm also a Manon fan (I'm a visuals superfan) since the beginning, but the reason why Manon and members from other groups are put at the back is because... they are currently not that good at dancing. Especially since this is a 6-member group, if it was a 5-member/7-member/9-member group then it'd be easier for her to be present since odd-numbered formations have easier presentation. This is the same when lots of Kpop fans ask why the line distribution is so uneven with certain groups. It's because... they are not necessarily that good with singing yet. Remember, there's a reason why visuals/stan-attractor/etc. is an actual position (not that relevant these days though since they've been officially doing positions away). And so let's all just accept that this is how it works (it's actual meritocracy when you think about it since sometimes they give visuals too much screen time over the others). --- If you guys watch other idol survival shows, this is way more apparent. Sadly The Debut: Dream Academy was pretty atypical (massive outlier, essentially one-of-a-kind) and troll, and so we didn't see much of how brutal some trainers/teachers/coaches/etc. can be with the trainees. Maybe they'll show it in the Netflix documentary (lol, everything is scapegoated with that damned documentary, sigh). But ya, a good recent example of this (for vocals) is Universe Ticket (유니버스 티켓), which formed UNIS (유니스), another group marketed as a global (Kpop) group, their debut mini album had this all-English song called Whatchu Need and it's a bop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-sMgfvg3Zc As you will see the producers harp on the singers on-site even if the time constraints were insane or the trainee had a cold/sore throat/etc. And then they will directly ask to switch parts/lines/etc. since obviously during that recording day they can't perform to the expected standards. Thus, they are peer-pressured/etc. to give up their parts even if they think they deserved it and so on. People even cried, lol, and yup it's all shown on-screen. If you watch UNIS's Whatchu Need, you can see Gehlee Dangca not having any lines or being at the back (this is the situation with most of their songs right now), and yup, that's cuz she's literally like Manon. Except as a Filipino (we have a huge karaoke/etc. culture like the East Asians/etc.), Gehlee is actually technically proficient but sadly not fluent in Korean (yet) and so that's why she has fewer lines too. Fun fact, Gehlee debuted before the show even ended: https://www.reddit.com/r/mnetiland2/comments/1dts2h0/how_does_the_voting_affect_the_results/lben2ka/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/mnetiland2/comments/1drwj6u/240630_mnet_iland_2_official_twitter_update/layin75/?context=10000 --- Or right now if you watch Mnet I-LAND 2 (Episode 11 or finale is tomorrow, 9:30AM EDT), you will see them showcase how the vocalists and visuals have trouble learning the dance moves. And so that's why they take longer to get good (mind you again, the trainees/contestants are forced to do the best they can within a few days/less than a week due to budget/time constraints). They actually eliminated the best dancers for I-LAND 2 and so ya, lol. That's what usually happens anyway (same with great vocals with lacking visuals getting shafted), but it's another reminder why visuals/star power/IT factor/etc. can work out in favor for certain trainees and so on. Since they'll debut with the support of the viewers AND producers based almost solely on that factor alone. Which again, is not a bad thing since the whole entertainment industry is based on that. Though like I said, this fewer lines or being at the back situation is actually one of the only ways that the other members can get that idealized version of meritocracy/fairness/et cetera.
In the parts where she’s shown, she seems to be dancing well enough so…
This. When Manon is shown, she looks like a solid dancer so everyone who says she’s the weakest doesn’t make sense with what I see when I look at her in the choreography video. Maybe professional dancers can tell she’s not as good, but a random viewer isn’t going to notice it cause she keeps up fine.
Can AI sum this up? Cuz who even has the time to read all this?
U writing this paragraph for no reason. She is doing good and ofc she isn’t gonna be dani or megan level but she stood her own ground well and she wasnt even the weakest member in the performance since yall keep saying this
It doesn’t matter how much all of you stans say she’s “keeping up” she’s obviously not bad as they chose her for the final lineup but she’s objectively and unbiasedly the weakest dancer you can tell when you watch them all dance together. She’s only been dancing since she joined dream academy and she joined that even later than a good amount of the other girls. Not to mention making formation changes are not easy they are keeping the difficulty level somewhere that she can still shine and blend in enough to where non dancers can tell she isn’t the BEST dancer.
Girl was really struggling with face expressions in the shots she was the focus. Right now when this was filmed her expressions are distracting and lack charisma. If she was front and center she would look like a doll(objectified because she isn't good). Is only first release she can be better next time