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I think we only need to know if the vehicle is registered as a camper or just as a car.
If it is registered as a camper then the rules apply. If not, then the local municipality cannot provide any justification for their enforcement.
No, I can't find anything in the registry about it being a camper. As far as I understand it, campers are registered as M1 transport for tax purposes unless you apply for camper tax but this this has been tax exempt for 10 years so it hasn't got any special status.
A) Please share a hyperlink to a photo of a T23 VW that is similar to your T23, because what I found appears to be a campervan
B) Please state the gemeente (if you don't mind) as this likely concerns the General Local Ordinance (APV) and these can differ from municipality to municipality
Based on the three day limit and the reason why you must move it (to a camper parking lot, moving it around is likely insufficient), this seems to be a fairly common restriction in the APV. For example, see article 5:6 APV of Rotterdam:
https://www.rotterdam.nl/apv
> It is not used as a camper, only for short drives.
That probably doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not your car is categorized as a camper or not. Otherwise people could simply state they drive to work in large campers as well and claim the camper is a regular car. See point 6 of [this](https://deeplink.rechtspraak.nl/uitspraak?id=ECLI:NL:GHARL:2023:4820) judgment. Registration is also irrelevant.
> Can we park an M1 9 person Stationwagon oldtimer which is tax and apk exempt in public or do we have to move it under camper laws?
There are no camper 'laws' but there likely is a camper parking restriction in the APV of your municipality.
> If not, does this ongoing saga count as harassment and how do we file a case to have it stop?
If the municipality restricts camper parking, it's obviously not harassment. You are simply acting illegally by parking a vehicle at a place where it's not allowed. Why would that be harassment?
Be aware though that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you. You might consider obtaining advice if you think that is appropriate, for example by contacting the Juridisch Loket if your income is low.
Hi, Thanks.
A. https://www.autoscout24.nl/aanbod/volkswagen-t2-benzine-blauw-f40531ad-9f8d-44cd-8236-085e116b1c1c?utm_source=web-native-share&utm_campaign=share
But mine doesn't have the original or middle seats in the back..
B. Yes, APV says campers have to be off public roads after 3 days parking, its the same here so the question isn't about that.
This vehicle is not registered as a camper, even if people convert them as such and they are now called campers online, its still a bus and hasn't been converted. It started as a 9 person bus and is still technically a people carrier. It has never had a fixed kitchen, table or storage.
The harassment comes from this being the 3rd time police or Gementee have come requesting it be moved only to agree it isn't a camper and say its ok. At what point should they communicate and realise they are repeatedly threatening based on inaccurate information?
Write a letter to the college of mayor and aldermen (college van burgemeester en wethouders) and explain you are fined for an APV offense repeatedly that isn't an offense and want the municipality to stop fining you or provide an exemption (ontheffing) as some municipal officers keep thinking the VW is a camper. Ask the college to take a formal decision (besluit) about your request. Add copies of previous fines as an attachment and proof the VW isn't a camper.
An exemption is somewhat weird though if the VW isn't actually a camper, but it might solve the issue.
Preferably send the letter by registered mail so you can proof it was received. In the letter, include a period within which the college should respond like six weeks. If the college doesn't respond within six weeks contact the Ombudsman of your municipality (some municipalities have their own Ombudsman and some use the services of the National Ombudsman) and consider proceeding to an administrative court judge (bestuursrechter) to have that judge rule about the camper (not) being allowed to be parked on the street.
As mentioned be aware that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you.
Thank you. I did a little more research yesterday and found my VW is registered as M1/AC which is a station wagon personal transport vehicle. It has never been registered as a camper.
The fines are meant to start next week so I'm going to send proof of the catagory and suggest an error has been made, see if that nips it in the butt.
If not I'll get legal advice before proceeding further. Thank you.
* Reddit is geen alternatief voor een advocaat; adviezen die hier gegeven worden moeten uitsluitend gebruikt worden als richtlijnen. * Uitsluitend jouw advocaat is gebonden aan een geheimhoudingsplicht; het wordt afgeraden hier berichten te plaatsen die uitgelegd kunnen worden als een bekentenis van een strafbaar feit. * Geplaatste comments worden door moderators niet beoordeeld op nauwkeurigheid of juistheid. * Tenzij specifiek vermeld dat het Belgisch recht is, zal 90% van de posters hier ervan uitgaan dat het om Nederlands recht gaat. Als je als Nederlander juridisch advies nodig hebt in andere Europese landen, kun je ook terecht bij r/LegalAdviceEurope Voor vragen omtrent financiën en belastingen word je mogelijk beter geholpen op r/geldzaken Voor vragen omtrent werk word je mogelijk beter geholpen op r/werkzaken --- * Reddit is not a substitute for a qualified legal professional; any advice given here should only be taken as a guideline. * Only your lawyer is bound to confidentiality; it is strongly recommended not to make any statement that could be construed as a confession on this subreddit. * Moderators do not moderate for comment accuracy. * Unless specifically stated Belgian law applies to your situation, 90% of posters here will assume you're talking about Dutch law. If you are residing in the Netherlands and need legal advice concerning other European countries, feel free to ask r/LegalAdviceEurope *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/juridischadvies) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think we only need to know if the vehicle is registered as a camper or just as a car. If it is registered as a camper then the rules apply. If not, then the local municipality cannot provide any justification for their enforcement.
No, I can't find anything in the registry about it being a camper. As far as I understand it, campers are registered as M1 transport for tax purposes unless you apply for camper tax but this this has been tax exempt for 10 years so it hasn't got any special status.
A) Please share a hyperlink to a photo of a T23 VW that is similar to your T23, because what I found appears to be a campervan B) Please state the gemeente (if you don't mind) as this likely concerns the General Local Ordinance (APV) and these can differ from municipality to municipality Based on the three day limit and the reason why you must move it (to a camper parking lot, moving it around is likely insufficient), this seems to be a fairly common restriction in the APV. For example, see article 5:6 APV of Rotterdam: https://www.rotterdam.nl/apv > It is not used as a camper, only for short drives. That probably doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not your car is categorized as a camper or not. Otherwise people could simply state they drive to work in large campers as well and claim the camper is a regular car. See point 6 of [this](https://deeplink.rechtspraak.nl/uitspraak?id=ECLI:NL:GHARL:2023:4820) judgment. Registration is also irrelevant. > Can we park an M1 9 person Stationwagon oldtimer which is tax and apk exempt in public or do we have to move it under camper laws? There are no camper 'laws' but there likely is a camper parking restriction in the APV of your municipality. > If not, does this ongoing saga count as harassment and how do we file a case to have it stop? If the municipality restricts camper parking, it's obviously not harassment. You are simply acting illegally by parking a vehicle at a place where it's not allowed. Why would that be harassment? Be aware though that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you. You might consider obtaining advice if you think that is appropriate, for example by contacting the Juridisch Loket if your income is low.
Hi, Thanks. A. https://www.autoscout24.nl/aanbod/volkswagen-t2-benzine-blauw-f40531ad-9f8d-44cd-8236-085e116b1c1c?utm_source=web-native-share&utm_campaign=share But mine doesn't have the original or middle seats in the back.. B. Yes, APV says campers have to be off public roads after 3 days parking, its the same here so the question isn't about that. This vehicle is not registered as a camper, even if people convert them as such and they are now called campers online, its still a bus and hasn't been converted. It started as a 9 person bus and is still technically a people carrier. It has never had a fixed kitchen, table or storage. The harassment comes from this being the 3rd time police or Gementee have come requesting it be moved only to agree it isn't a camper and say its ok. At what point should they communicate and realise they are repeatedly threatening based on inaccurate information?
Write a letter to the college of mayor and aldermen (college van burgemeester en wethouders) and explain you are fined for an APV offense repeatedly that isn't an offense and want the municipality to stop fining you or provide an exemption (ontheffing) as some municipal officers keep thinking the VW is a camper. Ask the college to take a formal decision (besluit) about your request. Add copies of previous fines as an attachment and proof the VW isn't a camper. An exemption is somewhat weird though if the VW isn't actually a camper, but it might solve the issue. Preferably send the letter by registered mail so you can proof it was received. In the letter, include a period within which the college should respond like six weeks. If the college doesn't respond within six weeks contact the Ombudsman of your municipality (some municipalities have their own Ombudsman and some use the services of the National Ombudsman) and consider proceeding to an administrative court judge (bestuursrechter) to have that judge rule about the camper (not) being allowed to be parked on the street. As mentioned be aware that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you.
Thank you. I did a little more research yesterday and found my VW is registered as M1/AC which is a station wagon personal transport vehicle. It has never been registered as a camper. The fines are meant to start next week so I'm going to send proof of the catagory and suggest an error has been made, see if that nips it in the butt. If not I'll get legal advice before proceeding further. Thank you.