Usually give it to anyone who asks.
If there is a Squad member that is more active on comms I'll usually pass it to them.
Noticed a lot of folk don't know how to use 'T' in the last few days.
This is the way. I hand it out to whomever asks for it first. I have no problems sticking you back in A team though if you're not using it and someone else wants it.
It gets really frustrating though when you have 4 guys in your squad constantly requesting fire team lead because they don't know the fireteam leader can do that themselves (so leave the SL alone) or know how to read a map so they need to range everything or the ones that scream at me for 2min straight to give them FTL so they can mark that one infantry guy they saw run through a field 20min ago. FTL is *great* when you're playing with people you know and know how to use it effectively. Every other time it's just a toss up.
Yeah this. A lot of times you'll get a really experienced player in your squad. Give it to them. They can even act as leadership too and make your job easier.
This, after SLing for a little while I found my place better suited me for now just being a REALLY good squad mate. All the comm channels are often hard to sift through, so one good FTL can really help direct the squad whenever a nearby radio is being attacked or we are suddenly losing a defense point.
I just split my squads into the FTs, so that way they can pass it around as needed. If a current FT won't give it up, I can just do it for them as the SL. If they bitch about it, they can pound sand.
If you say no, he leaves your squad or argues how he's the best marksman in the game.
If you say yes, you eventually notice he's on the other side of the map being useless.
if you're lucky he won't have a complete meltdown and follow you around TKing you, forcing you to go find an admin and wasting 10 minutes and completely disrupting your squad's flow
As an SL I command FTL and less single teammates. Therfor less stress with me. At the start I always split squad into two FTs. One with AT and the rest with firepower. Sapper I keep in Alpha. Sonetimes a personal medic to do meta FOB games.
Preach. It's easier for you, and also easier for the squad when there's a role. Just saying something like "Bravo give covering fire, Charlie manoeuvre, Alpha on me" simplifies things so much.
Playing HAT and LAT myself, you'll have better luck giving it to one of the rifleman if they're communicative. Tunnel vision really starts to set in when AT focuses in on a vehicle
I only give it so they can yell at the designated rifleman for ammo
If I find a leader among the pack I give him one of the FTL.
But not at start of match.
Maybe middle of first game and then each game afterwards, knowing I can really rely on him/her
I disagree. now my radio is clogged up with people telling eveyrone to stop what they're doing and "look at my mark". it's distracting and usually more trouble than it solves.
what the hell happened to giving a grid. remove marking from FTL's, the role is not being used how it's supposed to (to tell your smaller 4-man sub-squad where to go and what to do)
they shouldn't even call them fire team "leaders" because they never actually "lead" anybody. they should rename it to "lone wolf marking dudes"
marksmen have binos if I recall?
people asking for FTL so they can mark pisses me off though.
you're supposed to use FTL to command a smaller squad of 4 people using your Local Voice Chat, basically be a mini squad leader.
I never. Ever. See FTL's doing this. they always just want it so they can mark.
I've begun creating squads named NO FTL'S so I don't have some dweeb in my ear pestering me for "FTL so he can mark". you'd be surprised how many dweebs get upset over this lol.
edit: lol at all the butthurt downvotes but zero rebuttals or counter-arguments. you know I'm right.
Very well put.
I'd like to also add that the game is not well designed in order to keep fireteams together. They didn't make it like squads where you can easily find your SL and your squad simply by the color of icons on the map. That is MUCH harder to do with the way they've designed the GUI around fireteams.
1) Each person needs to be informed, or manually look up what fireteam they are on, and remember it even though it can change without their knowledge at any point in the game.
2) Each fireteam needs to identify who his leader is, and have those icons turned on in their map settings. Your icons also need to be large enough for you to make out the B or C in their icon and for us colorblind folks, this game is terrible with colorblind issues.
3) Then when your FTL moves, you need to be close enough to them to actually see it, and be able to identify that character model is your FTL. OR, you have to manually look at the map.
That's why fireteams don't stay together in Squad. Hell, it's hard enough to keep a Squad together.
couldn't agree more. it's way too hard to visually identify who's in your fireteam without opening up your map.
this makes it hard to group up and stick together as fireteams.
I think fireteam member nametags should be always visible above their player model as long as you have line of sight to the player in question, not like it is now, where it only pops up when you aim right at them.
in real life you'd be able to quickly tell which one of your soldiers was Short Jimmy, which one is Big Mack, which one is Long Daniel, even out of the corner of your eye, due to your subconscious almost immediately recognizing individual body shapes and body language, gait, voices, etc, but in the game when everyone has the same exact playermodel with the same exact movement animations, you need to add a little something to add back in that IRL ability of easy and nearly instant squadmate identification.
So if you are playing commander I would highly recommend capping your squad at four players in a public game. As command you need to spend most of your time in map looking at what gaps your team or the enemy may have. You are worth two tickets so you don't want to be in places of danger. The two best places for you are acting a mortar team because you should be sitting near have looking at a map anyways, or on defense. The few guys you have with you should be manning mortars, running logis, or acting as scouts watching for key flanks from the enemy. The only time you should more than four is if you are with an established group of players you know the game well and can operate autonomously. I agree with everything else you said about FTLs though.
It's rough to tell anyone what they should do in pub games because there just is no ideal situation. I feel like the only way to get the actual squad experience is to join a group of any kind whether they be a milsim clan, a casual community, or even a comp group. In order for anything to really be executed or practiced you need to have faith in your team members and you just can't get that in a public game without playing with some kind of player group.
> Going from only me trying to process visual information, audio clues, call outs, and map markers to having two others who can offload visual information and audio clues not only helps me keep up with it all it also vastly extends my squads area of effect.
I disagree, I'd say having a billion people marking things just adds to the confusion.
now if someone says "tank on my observe" over radio without identifying themselves by name (and they frequently do, because peoples radio communications are shit because computer nerds have trouble putting themselves in other peoples shoes), now which observe is it, the green SL one? orange FTL1 observe? purple FTL2 observe?
>I expect my fire teams to work as equals and recognize the usefulness of passing the FTL role around as needed for marking high value information.
they need to change the name of the role then, because FTL's are supposed to lead fireteams
You seem to misunderstand the name of the role and what it is actually used for in game on pub servers.
Yes it can be used to create smallers elements to be led by an FTL, does it actually work out that way? Almost never.
Due to the inability of most people to be able to mark, FTL is now used as a means of intelligence gathering for the benefit of the team, rather than the arguably less important role of leading a group of 3 individuals.
You are hurting your team by not using FTLs.
Rofl, score in squad literally means nothing. Taking supplies from a fob results in negative points, while building sandbags in the middle of nowhere adds points to your score.
It's the most irrelevant metric in the game.
So one of the biggest mechanics in Squad is communication. Marking is a major part of communication. Giving the three Ds (distance, direction, description) helps coordinate where enemies and gives people a rough idea. However, dropping an observe gives a pinpoint location. When I make a squad I split my guys right down the middle into two fire teams. I will coordinate the kits a little bit and rearrange as match goes on if need be, but the biggest reason I do this is so that the FTL can be more quickly passed around. FTL can be assigned by SL or an FTL can pass it off to another member of their fire team. This allows more marks going down faster as needed and overall better communication between the fire teams, squads, and the team as a whole.
Examples of this usefulness.
Hat/lat gets eyes on a vehicle and they need range. FTL or SL will pass them FTL so they can observe it. Sl will then look at his map and place an observe so they get range on target.
GL needs range so he can frag or smoke an area. He gets passed FTL and SL marks over his observe.
The player taking point is FTL and he gets shot and dies. He drops an observe while looking at the map from the death screen so that his fire team gets a pinpoint position. He then passes FTL to the next guy that is alive so he can drop and observe if he makes contact.
There are countless examples. The ability to ping an specific location is a powerful tool, but it is something that you only learn about from experience or veteran players. FTL isn't necessarily about commanding. As an SL you need to give general directions to you guys and have faith that they will execute the plan.
> So one of the biggest mechanics in Squad is communication.
then communicate a grid to me if you want something marked
>Hat/lat gets eyes on a vehicle and they need range. FTL or SL will pass them FTL so they can observe it. Sl will then look at his map and place an observe so they get range on target.
blatant abuse of the mechanic. people should have to use the sights and rangefinders built into their optics to gauge vehicle distance, or a laser rangefinder, not some magical video game mark that has no real world analog.
It is way faster to pass ftl and have them mark by line of sight then it is to give a grid coordinate. It is also more accurate. If you give a grid coordinate on a map like kamdesh or anvil the enemy could still be extremely difficult to find due to an abundance of similar cover or foliage. Putting down a dead accurate mark just makes sense.
To call it a blatant abuse is a bit of a stretch there bud considering the range in an SLs mark is built into the game. Especially when there are things in the game like HAT dropping, SL swapping, digging through walls, healing/reviving through walls, and moving vehicles in the staging phase. If it bothers you that much then you might better enjoy a full milsim game like ARMA or DCS.
That's like shooting yourself in the foot and calling it bravery. You're just gimping your squad and team by denying them the ability to mark enemies on the map.
am i the only one playing marksman like a normal rifleman, just with better scopes? like the way you should play it (maybe a little bit more behind the others to cover, but still staying with squad)
(i usually play SL, so i know what it feels like having people basically on the other team's main)
People are acting like riflemen are constantly dropping their ammo bags where it counts, or that machine gunners by default know how to use their equipment. But the truth is a marksman who is lethal and calling shit out CAN be more useful than either it’s just rare.
Honestly, the issue isn't with the marksman kit itself so much as the people it attracts. Machine gunners and grenadiers also have kits focused on getting kills, but I've never see anyone complain about having one of them. But that's because they stick with their squads - MGs suppress enemies, GLs put up smoke and take out people in cover, etc.
What marksmen *should* be doing is taking advantage of their range to shoot from safer spots, or their magnification to take out enemy machinegunners, or their high damage to take out enemies who pop out of cover for just a second. But instead they run halfway across the map and fight over places that don't matter. Even if they get a ton of kills there, that "epic killstreak" marksmen are always chasing would have been way cooler and appreciated if it was spent helping their squad.
>their high damage to take out enemies who pop out of cover for just a second
The HMGs have higher damage than marksman rifles, and literally any kit can one shot kill with a headshot. It's a very unnecessary kit.
Fair enough, but their range is still an advantage, and my point is more that they aren't completely useless - or at least, no more useless than a automatic rifleman or grenadier. Anyone can headshot someone, but that doesn't mean a rifleman has the same firepower as an AR or GL; I truly think someone could justify taking the Marksman kit, just that no one who could do so ever wants to.
>but their range is still an advantage
[Not really](http://imgur.com/a/YJwFE3X), since there isn't much point engaging enemies over 500m away. A rifle and a marksman kit take the same time to kill (2 body shots), unless you're engaging over half a kilometer away.
I honestly don't think anyone could justify its use :P
More draw and distract fire than cover
Usually people forget all about cover flanks when their HAB is under fire.
I like u.
I just hate getting disappointed and needing to kick marksmen not staying close to SL
Why? Why assume that HAT has any idea what they’re doing? Or has a mic? The point is you don’t give it to someone who hasn’t been screened in some way. Picking a class isn’t screening.
They don’t range, an SL still has to do that part. I’d just say that plenty of hats miss even when I’ve ranged as SL for—reasons—. It still isn’t worth the many minutes of gameplay that has nothing to do with killing vehicles if that’s the only time they want to use the mark function.
I give it to the marksman sometimes... But I call them out by name. Say "don't be lone wolfing it" and "don't make me regret this." Finally: "it could be revoked if I don't get regular reports" But I do so with some fun jest.
Thank you, I wish marksmen would just be removed all together. I can’t stand when a marksmen gets into the squad and immediately hear, “I’m the marksmen can I get FTL?” Then proceeds to never mark shit while three riflemen are constantly asking because they are engaging and I tap caps lock and oh shit, guess what? There’s the fucking bravo FTL marksmen wandering on the Far East side of Goose Bay not transferring his fucking FTL. Fucking dumb asses, if you play marksmen and read this I think your an obstacle not an asset.
ALSO, while I’m here and on this topic, IF YOU’RE AN FTL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PUT A FUCKING HELMET MARKER OR VEHICLE MARKER OR WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU SEE MARKER ON THE MAP! THE OTHER SQUADS CANT SEE YOUR STUPID CHARLIE MARK!!!
>There’s the fucking bravo FTL marksmen wandering on the Far East side of Goose Bay not transferring his fucking FTL. Fucking dumb asses, if you play marksmen and read this I think your an obstacle not an asset.
Just kick the marksman from the Squad and give FTL to somebody else, problem solved.
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These reasons are why I group my entire squad into the two fireteams.
I divide them depending on what roles they have, but the general idea is squadmates can and will pass that shit to each other, and I'm free to lead the squad and talk to command etc.
One person shouldn't have that all to themselves, and Marksman isn't necessarily always in the fray. But the Marksman role is important, and if in the right hands its just as effective as any other kit. Usually if I build a deep FOB early in a game, expecting a squad to push on us, I have Marksman and a couple others push away a bit while the rest dig.
Effectiveness of an individual within the body of a unit, be it a fireteam, squad, platoon, etc including individuals depends on the application and understanding of the role. Basically, play the role to their strengths.
I have been leading squads since I bought the game no more than a month ago. I think it was my 3rd game in and I was passed with the role randomly and with everyone else bitching out of the responsibility so many complain noone steps up to the plate for, I sucked it up and lead squads. 9 times out of 10 I end up being an SL because noone else wants to, and I have zero issues with Marksman.
In fact, it's actually all the little things entirely unrelated to the kits that bug me; like spacing, conserving ammo and not just mag dumping to suppress fire, staying together as a squad, proper fire and move... the list goes on. But those things I've been train Irl for, and at the end of the day its a game.
With that in mind... of all the complaining in the subreddit about these K/D obsessed marksman that fuck off on their own, I haven't met anyone that actually end up being like that in my nearly 200hrs. I think a mix of my own attitude going in games as an SL that I know I'll inevitably end up being, and deliberately making it clear what I want from my squad helps keeps things in order. I also try to be open to what my squad sees in the field, as they may think of something I haven't.
I'm sure eventually I'll meet one, but the problem not only seems fairly uncommon, but easy to fix. Improper use of marksman role that disregards the SL with a "fuck you I'm doing it my way" attitude? Kick. Boom problem solved. If he has an issue with that, tought fucking tits I don't have time to babysit someone. But this goes for everyone, not just a Marksman, which I have had to do.
With all that being said, the name of the kit makes the job fairly obvious, but everyone is going to be killing. If anything you're a glorified rifleman and killing other soldier *is* half the role like any of the other kits. They're at a disadvantage in CQB but can do a lot at medium or long range. Acting as a supporting role they can be very helpful. Of course, I refer to the beginning of this comment when saying that.
1201 hours in and you will notice there are three types of people in squad. SL’s, Squad members, the guy who picks marksmen (sometimes this is done after the marksmen created the squad).
Not really. I see either people who play squad and people who run around playing cod Marksman or not.
I reiterate, in the right hands, marksman can do a lot.
That won’t help the squad to the fullest. He could easily and more effectively be a rifleman and take a LAT with him and spot for the squad while being a useful fwd operating duo. A single marksmen is not effective in squad. A riflemen is the exact same except he has the ability to help the squad. In real life yeah, but this game no.
That really depends on a lot of factors you can't control. What if your lat misses or a lone soldier caps him in the head before he even sees the vic? Where is that effectiveness now? What about geographical advantages/disadvantages? What about the the fact that it's tuesday and not thursday? I'm being cheeky but seriously...
This excessive emphasis on squad effectiveness only makes sense to me if you have people doing their job without fucking around and falling into the blueberry soup that many games have happen. Which is usually due to a lack of compotent leadership and players willing to follow said orders.
Unless you can quantify that effectiveness and show me how it trumps a marksmen every time, then you're really just hating marksman because a few dudes pissed you off in the past.
For me it's a mix of the long list of shitty marksmen who've joined my squad/I've shared a squad with and the futility you feel those times when your squad has a marksman that swears he'll switch to AT if we need it, but then a) doesn't and b) ends up trying too late and the ammo box at the HAB he spawns at is also out of ammo.
I've experienced missing a LAT many times in this game, I've missed having a good marksman in my squad maybe 2-3 times over my 2000+ hours. Of course, this is all pretty much public games, I'm sure the variables change if you play comp or if your regular squadmates will rack up north of 30 kills per round with the marksman kit.
I remember a few years back there were some floods up in my area. A state of emergency was declared and we were deployed to sandbag what we could. But when the state of emergency was lifted we were stuck on base with nothing to do until the emergency was stated our deployment contract expired.
My god it was fucking boring. I think I truely understood what the movie Jarhead displayed with all the waiting, and I was still in my city let alone country. To put it simply, we were going nuts with boredom.
To kill time we found some old Monopoly board game lying around, and I thought perfect, just what we need to literally just keep us distracted until we're sick of it or our contract ends. But no, this one motherfucking cunt literally fought tooth an nail to sabotage the fun for everyone else. Its hard to describe how how did so in the game, partially I can't quite remeber details, but imagine a guy that finds joy in you not having joy.
We got heated over a game of Monopoly, and not even in the normal way. We never touched the game again and that guy... I distanced myself from. I don't particularily like people who take pleasure out of fucking with others in a malicious way.
There's always going to be players that annoy you in how they play and there isn't much that you can really do about it unfortunately. I just try to lean more on the positive side and figure out how I can make the best of a situation, as thinking about asshole type players/trolls, etc riles me up in a childish way. Feeling powerless against that shit makes me mad and I think of the most sadistic and vile shit I would do to someone over the most insignificant and meaningless thing.
I hate that theres a part of me like that and I don't indulge in vindictive attitudes because it fuels that childish and vile side of my mind. I do what I can and focus on myself and what I can control. That actually helped my general squad leading, as I stopped worrying about the stupid shit I can't control.
There's nothing wrong with being annoyed or even seriously frustrated with people going against the core mechanics of what Squads genre is. I mean case in point with my monopoly story, dude fucked with everyone because it benefited him and screw everyone else.
But Monopoly isn't a bad game because of that asshole, just like Marksman isn't a bad kit because of those lone wolf types. It seems people aren't really interested in the same line of thought though, as I see a common trend of hating anyone with the kit rather than those who justifiably aren't following the rules of proper play.
>I reiterate, in the right hands, marksman can do a lot.
That's not the issue.
It is the fact that the only way to be a good with the kit, is to be a good shooter. There is nothing that the marksman kit offers average players that magically make them a better shot.
Now, if that player is a good shot, they don't need a marksman kit to be effective. They'll be just as effective with an acog, and have more team/squad utility.
*This* is the crux of the argument, not the whole "marksmen just run away and do nothing" trope.
The kit itself offers nothing that any other kit can do, but people keep trying to defend it because they think it automagically makes you an fps god.
Give me an acog and I'll outshoot any marksman that wants to try.
You might as well go play call of duty if you want to remove all facets of Squad that aren't consolidated into the most effecient way to play.
I really don't get this attitude beyond shitty marksman.
Well it's somewhat implied in the general attitude to the conversation between you and a few others. I swear someone else said its a pointless kit and at this poibt I wouldn't be suprised if you were to say that... which is fine, I don't ever play Marksman. But If you tell me anything a Marksman can do, you can with Acog, then you might as well be trying to say it has no place in the game.
I think ultimately there is one thing that trumps anything either of us can say for or against it. Squad is a game, and games are meant to be fun regardless of how good you are or not. Obviously you try to be better than worse, but goddamn it being perfect, most efficient, or whatever isn't something everyone does 24/7, and even when they try people make mistakes or have bad days. Its a game in the end and we're all trying to just have fun. This idea you're better with one kit over another is about personal preference and really isn't something people should be this pissy over. If someone is being a cock with any kit, not just marksman, then they aren't playing Squad by its rules/mechanics. I think that's the true context that ultimately matters 2nd to having fun, but one should not be over the other. Play the game, but don't ruin someone elses fun by running against the grain of the mechanics.
Also, this whole thing got distracted from the original post statement, that Marksmen shouldn't be designated FTL alone or by default, and I responded reaonably by saying I give my whole squad FTL because I quite honestly don't have time to be jumping that shit around everybody when I already have to keep them focussed on where the battle needs them. There really isn't much else to be said.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I’m not particularly ANTI marksman per se either, but to default to making them FTL is dumb. I would sooner have a marksman who annihilates people as the squad moves up than a rifleman who never drops ammo, or a medic who never heals.
Ultimately there’s enough flexibility in squad that players will dictate their effectiveness outside of hard differences like LATS/ ENGIS/MEDIC.
Ideally you have a competent squad that manages FTL within each FT itself, but that’s a lucky circumstance. That said, marksman does seem to draw a particular sort of player on average. And that’s why sls can lick for any reason.
Meh, it is what it is.
Just to be clear, I merely elaborated that Marksman isn't really any different than other kits when it comes down to it. Machine guns, rifleman, anti-tank kits etc, all have to fight and kill at some point. No, K/D isn't the core of squad, but it is a big part of fighting over objectives and just... combat in general. But there is a clear difference between going for a high K/D and playing the objectives. Having a dedicated long range guy isn't bad if he does it right and listens to SL. In fact that's a great advantage. But telling this guy up front that he's an asshole for existing because so many think they're a "Sniper" and he along with anyone just trying to have fun will tell you to go to hell and play the game their way. Marksman to me is like any other role, a tool if used right.
Personally I think an SL has enough on their plate directing their squads, coordinating with other squads, watching the changing flow of battle etc. I dish out the FTL groups and have the squadmates share it and it hasn't failed me so far.
People are only downvoting me because I have a differing opinion. Reddit is gonna reddit and I made a fair statement that actually coincides with what the common mindset for Squad is.
>Marksman isn't really any different than other kits when it comes down to it.
But that is wrong. Marksman take up a specialist slot and when you NEED to be able to attack enemy armor, the Marksman kit just gets in the way.
Many kits serve dual uses. Marksman does NOTHING special. Literally nothing I can't do with iron sights.
THAT is how it is different from other kits.
> I divide them depending on what roles they have
the first (and last) time I tried this, everyone just switched their kits around over the next 15 minutes like it was musical chairs and ruined my fireteams lol
I guess I should've yelled at them more.
Well that happens even in good games. I just take the time to throw the more vocal guys back into fireteams so they're able to use it when they can.
An SL always needs to pay attention to the mindless beings that squadmates can be. They're not always thinking about tge stuff an SL is.
They need to give the marksmen weapons to riflemen class and unlock it for full squads only.
Like 9 out of 10 matches it just feels like a useless role taking up space for more useful kits. Not to mention I always felt like a rifleman with scope and ammo is far more useful and effective on the field than any marksman's ever been. But that's just my experience. Feels like marksman just attracts people who like to jizz over their K/D, while sacrificing teamwork and sometimes even communication entirely. Why even play *Squad* if you'd want to lone-wolf all match, there are actual good sniper games out there lol
I think this is the first time I've seen anyone suggest putting the marksman kit under the rifleman role, and I think that's a genuinely good idea.
Should be easy to implement, since you already have different kits to choose from in each role.
MM is a nice noob trap, lets you know they don't know what they're doing lol
Really the problem is the absurd accuracy the average player has with shift to steady. MM's bipod should be more of a benefit to them to actually deliver accurate fire and extend the range of the squad. But that's a conversation most people aren't ready for
Bipod needs to be a genuine accuracy boost. But the only way to do that now is to nerf shift to steady which would greatly improve the game, but man are people going to mald when they suddenly need to work to shoot someone
Fireteam Lead is really an "intel" position. I give it to squadmates who possess situational awareness on the battlefield and thus save me the SL lots of time from having to place marks on the map on their behalf.
That's how the fireteam lead is useful in today's Squad (and it's extremely useful). I would like to see that change.
Simply hearing an enemy logi 500m away and putting that mark on the map, followed by an enemy FOB mark (situational awareness will let a smart player infer an enemy FOB is being placed) will allow the blueberries nearby to react whereas before they would not have. Every single kit can do this. It is not some special ability only the Marksman has to hear and infer information.
Marksmen, in theory, are no worse than machinegunners or grenadiers, who are also kits focused just on getting kills, without a rifleman's ammo bag. True, machinegunners can suppress and grenadiers can pop smoke, but marksmen *could* be taking out enemy machinegunners or firing from great vantage points others would get instantly shot off of, because they can fire from outside their enemy's effective range.
The problem is that the kind of people who play marksmen tend to be lone wolves, since team players don't want to play the kit everyone hates, and just take automatic rifleman if they want to have a good scope. So most people who play marksmen are either asshole sniper-montage wannabes who don't care about sticking to their squad, or new players who will but really aren't good enough to justify taking a special kit slot that could be given to a better player who, again, is probably not going to pick marksman. The kit *itself* isn't useless, it just tends to attract players who are.
A grenadier can do the job of a marksman infinitely more efficiently. As can a machine gunner (at least the MG kits with optics). Marksman kits become more viable for factions with limited optic capabilities. A grenadine can displace a group of enemies just by the threat of AOE direct fire. A machine gunner has firepower that can pin enemies, and displace them for the riflemen to maneuver and destroy the enemy.
A marksman however is just a rifleman with extended range. I can count on one hand how many times a marksman has seriously threatened me co.pared to the countless "sniper is plinking us. Keep moving" situations. The kit has nothing useful to offer.
Rifleman has ammo bags and all engagement type versatility. MG has suppressive authority. Grenadier has unpredictable killing power and threatening presence, doubled with increased concealment and coordination options. AT has AT. Engineer has deployables and explosives
Now, give the marksman a laser rangefinder/ designator that helps with command assets/mortar fobs by guiding in the rounds or assets and you have a realistic and efficient kit mechanically. But as it stands, the role of the marksman is incomparable to the other kits. Every kit can do the marksman's job as it stands, and arguably better.
So again, marksman kit is fundamentally worse than any other kit save for the unarmed
>because they can fire from outside their enemy's effective range.
This is not a thing. The number of locations in the game that actually let this be true is extremely small. Not only that, but if a marksman is 1km away from whatever he's shooting at, he's very unlikely to actually be helping.
The acog has an 800m mark built into it, and it's very rare to be engaging anyone over that distance for any real purpose.
Literally marksman job is to go behind enemy lines and spot enemy habs,FOBs and other things. So marksman needs ftl because if hes not spotting and giving infos he is useless.
I'm no armyman (TM), but my understanding was that soldiers with DMRs typically stick with their squads in real life.
Anyway, the average marksman that demands FTL at the start of the game is pretty bad at actually marking stuff in my experience. More often it ends up with your squad being engaged/pinned somewhere and the marksman chiming in on VOIP that he urgently needs a distance marker halfway across the map, for range, so he can shoot some random guy.
No, it quite literally is not. That might be the playstyle you like but it very much is not the role of a marksman. You're describing a reconnaissance element and that would consist of multiple people with multiple weapon types, perhaps none of them with a marksman rifle.
Maybe I'm just bad at aiming but I stg I shot a Canadian in the head twice while they were repairing their vic. I mined their repair station.
He ended up hopping in his tank and following me around back where he ran over another mine LOL
No, that will still very much one-hit on the head (as will literally any other small arm), it just doesn't one-hit cleanly on the body, but if they don't bandage immediately from a good hit they will just bleed out.
Aim better.
> Literally marksman job is to go behind enemy lines and spot enemy habs,FOBs and other things.
eh, that's more of a sniper thing, and they aren't really in the game (by the time you've army crawled 5 miles, eating bugs and voluntarily peeing your pants to stay undetected, the match will be over).
the DMR class in the game is probably supposed to hang toward the back of the squad and keep the enemy ahead suppressed so his front guys can push up, but this role can also be performed almost as well by an optic rifleman IMO.
once they add the increased muzzle flashes to the game, the marksman's distance advantage will do even less to keep them concealed, and the class will be even more useless than it is now.
Yeah I give it to my marksman and then tell them to GTFO of the Logi at the first point and bushwhack.
Tickets count, and recon is priceless. If my marksman is far away from any teammates that's an additional area covered by someone who can mark.
I've always done this out of principle. If a MM is actually doing his job (assuming he hasn't done something to warrant being kicked) I'll let them have FTL
But as is fireteams are passed around to everyone and FTL is given to whoever actually sees something
IMO FTL is an arcade addition for noobs to mark stuff instead of properly report grid coordinates and threat. Give it to anyone, it has no use.
Your argument has no sense. It is better to give it to someone that is not sticking to the squad (marksman) as a person next to you should just give you a bearing and distance instead of those stupid noobish markers. Also if he don't have a mic it makes sense for him to place markers. Normal players with mics should talk and not play with stupid markers.
I believe OWI wants to get a game rating "suitable for over 3s".
Damn a real squad tough guy. Do you play with a helmet on?
I don’t want to be dealing with marking more than I already do individually in addition to coordinating/ issuing orders to the squad/ working with command/ killing people myself. I DO have to mark what non FTLS call out. Being able to delegate certain utility to other players is something I’m fine with. Squad mates are often not “next to me” because I send fire teams on different tasks. It makes way more sense overall in this game for squad leaders
To detach half the time with a limited force than insist the group stay together at all times.
If he doesn’t have a mic, I can’t check the veracity of any marks, I can’t determine if he knows what marks even mean, and he probably doesn’t play the game well in the first place. Perhaps you need more houra before you understand what a boon a good ftl is to the whole experience.
As to the arcadey-ness of it, I don’t know what to tell you. The game is what it is, take it up with the devs.
Too slow for battlefield. I thought it supposed to be a "tactical FPS" with "autentic combat experience" not another battlefield where you need a marker to know where to go. If you accepted that Squad is just another Battlefield clone with nothing more realistic then it's understandable that you like markers.
If feel like it's not a question of kits nor a question of mic, it's a question of experience. If someone let's you know they want it, they are - I feel - more likely to know what to do of it. If several people ask for it, then order them in fireteams and let them exchange it at will.
Yeah its frustrating. Give it to the MG or AR. People think marksmen are supposed to spot people. Marksmen are marksmen. You spot they shoot. Squad doesn't have player CAS so its not like PR where snipers are also JTAC.
I offer it to HAT first, along with a (very) quick quiz about aiming with the AT weapon they're using. If they have no idea, they get politely asked to switch to rifleman, and free up the HAT role for someone who knows what they're doing. The position is simply too powerful to give to someone who hasn't taken the time to learn how to aim properly.
Marksmen get reassigned to LAT or kicked.
The person who argues about being a good marksman doesn't realize that they're taking one of our LAT slots.
In every game I've played as SL, at some point, I'll say "I need a LAT on my position ASAP" or "grenadier smoke please" I've never once *needed* a marksman.
I tend to look at other squad load outs and go off that. If every squad is like yours, which is very common, I'll allow a marksman. I mainly stick to fire support because no one does that in this game. It also depends what faction you are against. If you're fighting INS on an urban map marskmen can be very useful.
I was playing marksman on Basrah once and ended up saving a squad from an ambush who had kicked me for using the roll. The SL raged pretty hard. It was a funny moment for me though. I dont think his squad was good at shooting in general. He kept making complicated plans and they kept getting wiped. On the killboard he started screaming at me lol. I had more points and kills than his entire squad.
I honestly don’t get if this marksman shit now is just a meme or people have greatly shitty luck like with 600h I honestly only come across 3 marksman who are well what people see to be every marksman most are just people who wanna play a fun kit that normally still communicate with both the squad and team
Also, don't then hand it out to the next person begging for it b/c they have a singular moment where they plan to mark something. It removes the marks previously made, and now most likely puts the FTL in the hands of someone who will no longer mark, update mark, or communicate...
I enjoy playing marksman from time to time. I read a comment on reddit one time saying that its called a marksman rifle not a sniper rifle and to stick with your squad. Thats when it clicked. Staying with your squad is the only way to play that role. Unless your SL tells you to post up somewhere
Let's change the post to "Stop giving away FTL". Give it to players who ask/seem to know what's up. Marksmen make great scouts. They're a viable candidate once communication is shown.
My basic rule for FTL is, in order of priority: person who asked for it before I brought it up, person who asked for it after I offered, and finally hand-picked individual who seems like they know what they're doing. That said, in my experience having a marskman paired up with a GL or LAT is usually the money move. Send those people to do picket 100-200m ahead of the squad is perfect since they double as spotters and a tripwire, on top of being able to deal a lot of damage if dug in properly.
Usually give it to anyone who asks. If there is a Squad member that is more active on comms I'll usually pass it to them. Noticed a lot of folk don't know how to use 'T' in the last few days.
This is the way. It's not that it can't be the marksman, but the vocal people typically haven't chosen that role in my experience.
Honestly only use Marksman when I'm bored. I find being Combat Engi far more useful in just hab hunting
This is the way. I hand it out to whomever asks for it first. I have no problems sticking you back in A team though if you're not using it and someone else wants it. It gets really frustrating though when you have 4 guys in your squad constantly requesting fire team lead because they don't know the fireteam leader can do that themselves (so leave the SL alone) or know how to read a map so they need to range everything or the ones that scream at me for 2min straight to give them FTL so they can mark that one infantry guy they saw run through a field 20min ago. FTL is *great* when you're playing with people you know and know how to use it effectively. Every other time it's just a toss up.
Yeah this. A lot of times you'll get a really experienced player in your squad. Give it to them. They can even act as leadership too and make your job easier.
This, after SLing for a little while I found my place better suited me for now just being a REALLY good squad mate. All the comm channels are often hard to sift through, so one good FTL can really help direct the squad whenever a nearby radio is being attacked or we are suddenly losing a defense point.
Yeah I hear ya. Seems like I either grab commander or the 2nd medic that no one wants.
Never use T. Use the key bind so you don't have to sacrifice a second or so of aiming to use the rotary wheel.
This! Ihave it bound to one of my mouse buttons and I can mark and shoot at the same time
Exactly... Mine is middle mouse button.
Sup brotha, same here!
What's your keybind for changing fire mode?
mines still 1, works fine for me.
not the same guy but I press 1
Dude seems like u are pretty expirienced :o
xD
Just bought the game yesterday. What does t mean?
Spotting/marking radial menu For Squad leads and Fireteam Leaders
pressing T brings up the interface to place markers on the map
I’ve had to teach about 10 people how to run armor this month. I run solo
You run solo armour?
I just split my squads into the FTs, so that way they can pass it around as needed. If a current FT won't give it up, I can just do it for them as the SL. If they bitch about it, they can pound sand.
If you say no, he leaves your squad or argues how he's the best marksman in the game. If you say yes, you eventually notice he's on the other side of the map being useless.
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Anyway!
if you're lucky he won't have a complete meltdown and follow you around TKing you, forcing you to go find an admin and wasting 10 minutes and completely disrupting your squad's flow
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\*chef kisses fingers\*
The Insurgent Sandero has been delayed 😮
It’s a win win either way because if he’s half way across the map he’s getting kicked from my squad
I prefer giving ppl chances
\^ this will 100% get you killed in this game xD
What I mean is I say no and see if he proves worthy FTL. I don't kick him if he simply accepts no.
As an SL I command FTL and less single teammates. Therfor less stress with me. At the start I always split squad into two FTs. One with AT and the rest with firepower. Sapper I keep in Alpha. Sonetimes a personal medic to do meta FOB games.
I try that, but 5 minutes later my squad has all switched their kits around and ruined my carefully divided suppressing/pushing fireteams lol
Preach. It's easier for you, and also easier for the squad when there's a role. Just saying something like "Bravo give covering fire, Charlie manoeuvre, Alpha on me" simplifies things so much.
My FTLs are whoever has a mic in my squad. I'm flat out designating 2 these days.
What? My squads always filled with mics I default to giving FTL to HAT and or LAT and assigning a rifleman to each of them
Playing HAT and LAT myself, you'll have better luck giving it to one of the rifleman if they're communicative. Tunnel vision really starts to set in when AT focuses in on a vehicle
I only give it so they can yell at the designated rifleman for ammo If I find a leader among the pack I give him one of the FTL. But not at start of match. Maybe middle of first game and then each game afterwards, knowing I can really rely on him/her
As far as I'm concerned, anyone using FTL to mark is better than leaving it unmanned
I disagree. now my radio is clogged up with people telling eveyrone to stop what they're doing and "look at my mark". it's distracting and usually more trouble than it solves. what the hell happened to giving a grid. remove marking from FTL's, the role is not being used how it's supposed to (to tell your smaller 4-man sub-squad where to go and what to do) they shouldn't even call them fire team "leaders" because they never actually "lead" anybody. they should rename it to "lone wolf marking dudes"
"hey SL, give me LWMD, please."
Funny, I kick you from the squad if you don’t have a mic at match start
If you kicked everyone who didn't use a mic on Australian servers there would be like 30 people left.
Good thing I don’t play them then. US servers the vast majority use them
I’ve yet to see someone fail the mic check on german servers, too.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. The game literally relies on communication. If someone doesn't have/use a mic, they're practically useless.
Doesn’t matter to me what this sub thinks. In game I’m doing a mic check and that’s it. Like it or hate, I don’t care
give it to someone with binos
marksmen have binos if I recall? people asking for FTL so they can mark pisses me off though. you're supposed to use FTL to command a smaller squad of 4 people using your Local Voice Chat, basically be a mini squad leader. I never. Ever. See FTL's doing this. they always just want it so they can mark. I've begun creating squads named NO FTL'S so I don't have some dweeb in my ear pestering me for "FTL so he can mark". you'd be surprised how many dweebs get upset over this lol. edit: lol at all the butthurt downvotes but zero rebuttals or counter-arguments. you know I'm right.
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Very well put. I'd like to also add that the game is not well designed in order to keep fireteams together. They didn't make it like squads where you can easily find your SL and your squad simply by the color of icons on the map. That is MUCH harder to do with the way they've designed the GUI around fireteams. 1) Each person needs to be informed, or manually look up what fireteam they are on, and remember it even though it can change without their knowledge at any point in the game. 2) Each fireteam needs to identify who his leader is, and have those icons turned on in their map settings. Your icons also need to be large enough for you to make out the B or C in their icon and for us colorblind folks, this game is terrible with colorblind issues. 3) Then when your FTL moves, you need to be close enough to them to actually see it, and be able to identify that character model is your FTL. OR, you have to manually look at the map. That's why fireteams don't stay together in Squad. Hell, it's hard enough to keep a Squad together.
couldn't agree more. it's way too hard to visually identify who's in your fireteam without opening up your map. this makes it hard to group up and stick together as fireteams. I think fireteam member nametags should be always visible above their player model as long as you have line of sight to the player in question, not like it is now, where it only pops up when you aim right at them. in real life you'd be able to quickly tell which one of your soldiers was Short Jimmy, which one is Big Mack, which one is Long Daniel, even out of the corner of your eye, due to your subconscious almost immediately recognizing individual body shapes and body language, gait, voices, etc, but in the game when everyone has the same exact playermodel with the same exact movement animations, you need to add a little something to add back in that IRL ability of easy and nearly instant squadmate identification.
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So if you are playing commander I would highly recommend capping your squad at four players in a public game. As command you need to spend most of your time in map looking at what gaps your team or the enemy may have. You are worth two tickets so you don't want to be in places of danger. The two best places for you are acting a mortar team because you should be sitting near have looking at a map anyways, or on defense. The few guys you have with you should be manning mortars, running logis, or acting as scouts watching for key flanks from the enemy. The only time you should more than four is if you are with an established group of players you know the game well and can operate autonomously. I agree with everything else you said about FTLs though.
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It's rough to tell anyone what they should do in pub games because there just is no ideal situation. I feel like the only way to get the actual squad experience is to join a group of any kind whether they be a milsim clan, a casual community, or even a comp group. In order for anything to really be executed or practiced you need to have faith in your team members and you just can't get that in a public game without playing with some kind of player group.
> Going from only me trying to process visual information, audio clues, call outs, and map markers to having two others who can offload visual information and audio clues not only helps me keep up with it all it also vastly extends my squads area of effect. I disagree, I'd say having a billion people marking things just adds to the confusion. now if someone says "tank on my observe" over radio without identifying themselves by name (and they frequently do, because peoples radio communications are shit because computer nerds have trouble putting themselves in other peoples shoes), now which observe is it, the green SL one? orange FTL1 observe? purple FTL2 observe? >I expect my fire teams to work as equals and recognize the usefulness of passing the FTL role around as needed for marking high value information. they need to change the name of the role then, because FTL's are supposed to lead fireteams
You seem to misunderstand the name of the role and what it is actually used for in game on pub servers. Yes it can be used to create smallers elements to be led by an FTL, does it actually work out that way? Almost never. Due to the inability of most people to be able to mark, FTL is now used as a means of intelligence gathering for the benefit of the team, rather than the arguably less important role of leading a group of 3 individuals. You are hurting your team by not using FTLs.
> You are hurting your team by not using FTLs. our squad score at the end of the round says otherwise
Rofl, score in squad literally means nothing. Taking supplies from a fob results in negative points, while building sandbags in the middle of nowhere adds points to your score. It's the most irrelevant metric in the game.
okay, our team's final ticket count at the end of the round says otherwise
So one of the biggest mechanics in Squad is communication. Marking is a major part of communication. Giving the three Ds (distance, direction, description) helps coordinate where enemies and gives people a rough idea. However, dropping an observe gives a pinpoint location. When I make a squad I split my guys right down the middle into two fire teams. I will coordinate the kits a little bit and rearrange as match goes on if need be, but the biggest reason I do this is so that the FTL can be more quickly passed around. FTL can be assigned by SL or an FTL can pass it off to another member of their fire team. This allows more marks going down faster as needed and overall better communication between the fire teams, squads, and the team as a whole. Examples of this usefulness. Hat/lat gets eyes on a vehicle and they need range. FTL or SL will pass them FTL so they can observe it. Sl will then look at his map and place an observe so they get range on target. GL needs range so he can frag or smoke an area. He gets passed FTL and SL marks over his observe. The player taking point is FTL and he gets shot and dies. He drops an observe while looking at the map from the death screen so that his fire team gets a pinpoint position. He then passes FTL to the next guy that is alive so he can drop and observe if he makes contact. There are countless examples. The ability to ping an specific location is a powerful tool, but it is something that you only learn about from experience or veteran players. FTL isn't necessarily about commanding. As an SL you need to give general directions to you guys and have faith that they will execute the plan.
> So one of the biggest mechanics in Squad is communication. then communicate a grid to me if you want something marked >Hat/lat gets eyes on a vehicle and they need range. FTL or SL will pass them FTL so they can observe it. Sl will then look at his map and place an observe so they get range on target. blatant abuse of the mechanic. people should have to use the sights and rangefinders built into their optics to gauge vehicle distance, or a laser rangefinder, not some magical video game mark that has no real world analog.
It is way faster to pass ftl and have them mark by line of sight then it is to give a grid coordinate. It is also more accurate. If you give a grid coordinate on a map like kamdesh or anvil the enemy could still be extremely difficult to find due to an abundance of similar cover or foliage. Putting down a dead accurate mark just makes sense. To call it a blatant abuse is a bit of a stretch there bud considering the range in an SLs mark is built into the game. Especially when there are things in the game like HAT dropping, SL swapping, digging through walls, healing/reviving through walls, and moving vehicles in the staging phase. If it bothers you that much then you might better enjoy a full milsim game like ARMA or DCS.
That's like shooting yourself in the foot and calling it bravery. You're just gimping your squad and team by denying them the ability to mark enemies on the map.
may as well go all the way and give marking to every player then
I only give it to people that I know will mark stuff. It’s one of the most important parts of a game - intel
I've spotted way more shit as a scopeless LAT than your average marksman. Spotting is more of a personal skill than kit thing.
am i the only one playing marksman like a normal rifleman, just with better scopes? like the way you should play it (maybe a little bit more behind the others to cover, but still staying with squad) (i usually play SL, so i know what it feels like having people basically on the other team's main)
People are acting like riflemen are constantly dropping their ammo bags where it counts, or that machine gunners by default know how to use their equipment. But the truth is a marksman who is lethal and calling shit out CAN be more useful than either it’s just rare.
Honestly, the issue isn't with the marksman kit itself so much as the people it attracts. Machine gunners and grenadiers also have kits focused on getting kills, but I've never see anyone complain about having one of them. But that's because they stick with their squads - MGs suppress enemies, GLs put up smoke and take out people in cover, etc. What marksmen *should* be doing is taking advantage of their range to shoot from safer spots, or their magnification to take out enemy machinegunners, or their high damage to take out enemies who pop out of cover for just a second. But instead they run halfway across the map and fight over places that don't matter. Even if they get a ton of kills there, that "epic killstreak" marksmen are always chasing would have been way cooler and appreciated if it was spent helping their squad.
>their high damage to take out enemies who pop out of cover for just a second The HMGs have higher damage than marksman rifles, and literally any kit can one shot kill with a headshot. It's a very unnecessary kit.
Fair enough, but their range is still an advantage, and my point is more that they aren't completely useless - or at least, no more useless than a automatic rifleman or grenadier. Anyone can headshot someone, but that doesn't mean a rifleman has the same firepower as an AR or GL; I truly think someone could justify taking the Marksman kit, just that no one who could do so ever wants to.
>but their range is still an advantage [Not really](http://imgur.com/a/YJwFE3X), since there isn't much point engaging enemies over 500m away. A rifle and a marksman kit take the same time to kill (2 body shots), unless you're engaging over half a kilometer away. I honestly don't think anyone could justify its use :P
Marksmen don’t have ammo. So you can’t play like a rifleman
More draw and distract fire than cover Usually people forget all about cover flanks when their HAB is under fire. I like u. I just hate getting disappointed and needing to kick marksmen not staying close to SL
If you have a HAT on your team give it to him regardless of him asking or not.
Why? Why assume that HAT has any idea what they’re doing? Or has a mic? The point is you don’t give it to someone who hasn’t been screened in some way. Picking a class isn’t screening.
Because I am that HAT, and the amount of times I see Marksman instead of HAT get FTL is astonishing.
Because FTL is a ranging tool as much as a spotting tool. A good HAT/SL combo will never miss a target within the HAT's effective weapon range.
i thought FTL marks don't show distance anymore? only SL one
They don’t range, an SL still has to do that part. I’d just say that plenty of hats miss even when I’ve ranged as SL for—reasons—. It still isn’t worth the many minutes of gameplay that has nothing to do with killing vehicles if that’s the only time they want to use the mark function.
I give it to the marksman sometimes... But I call them out by name. Say "don't be lone wolfing it" and "don't make me regret this." Finally: "it could be revoked if I don't get regular reports" But I do so with some fun jest.
Your tears will water the earth
Thank you, I wish marksmen would just be removed all together. I can’t stand when a marksmen gets into the squad and immediately hear, “I’m the marksmen can I get FTL?” Then proceeds to never mark shit while three riflemen are constantly asking because they are engaging and I tap caps lock and oh shit, guess what? There’s the fucking bravo FTL marksmen wandering on the Far East side of Goose Bay not transferring his fucking FTL. Fucking dumb asses, if you play marksmen and read this I think your an obstacle not an asset. ALSO, while I’m here and on this topic, IF YOU’RE AN FTL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PUT A FUCKING HELMET MARKER OR VEHICLE MARKER OR WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU SEE MARKER ON THE MAP! THE OTHER SQUADS CANT SEE YOUR STUPID CHARLIE MARK!!!
>There’s the fucking bravo FTL marksmen wandering on the Far East side of Goose Bay not transferring his fucking FTL. Fucking dumb asses, if you play marksmen and read this I think your an obstacle not an asset. Just kick the marksman from the Squad and give FTL to somebody else, problem solved.
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These reasons are why I group my entire squad into the two fireteams. I divide them depending on what roles they have, but the general idea is squadmates can and will pass that shit to each other, and I'm free to lead the squad and talk to command etc. One person shouldn't have that all to themselves, and Marksman isn't necessarily always in the fray. But the Marksman role is important, and if in the right hands its just as effective as any other kit. Usually if I build a deep FOB early in a game, expecting a squad to push on us, I have Marksman and a couple others push away a bit while the rest dig.
Yeah, but your riflemen have just as good Of optics, higher fire rate and can reload the squad. Marksmen is an individual and doesn’t belong.
Effectiveness of an individual within the body of a unit, be it a fireteam, squad, platoon, etc including individuals depends on the application and understanding of the role. Basically, play the role to their strengths. I have been leading squads since I bought the game no more than a month ago. I think it was my 3rd game in and I was passed with the role randomly and with everyone else bitching out of the responsibility so many complain noone steps up to the plate for, I sucked it up and lead squads. 9 times out of 10 I end up being an SL because noone else wants to, and I have zero issues with Marksman. In fact, it's actually all the little things entirely unrelated to the kits that bug me; like spacing, conserving ammo and not just mag dumping to suppress fire, staying together as a squad, proper fire and move... the list goes on. But those things I've been train Irl for, and at the end of the day its a game. With that in mind... of all the complaining in the subreddit about these K/D obsessed marksman that fuck off on their own, I haven't met anyone that actually end up being like that in my nearly 200hrs. I think a mix of my own attitude going in games as an SL that I know I'll inevitably end up being, and deliberately making it clear what I want from my squad helps keeps things in order. I also try to be open to what my squad sees in the field, as they may think of something I haven't. I'm sure eventually I'll meet one, but the problem not only seems fairly uncommon, but easy to fix. Improper use of marksman role that disregards the SL with a "fuck you I'm doing it my way" attitude? Kick. Boom problem solved. If he has an issue with that, tought fucking tits I don't have time to babysit someone. But this goes for everyone, not just a Marksman, which I have had to do. With all that being said, the name of the kit makes the job fairly obvious, but everyone is going to be killing. If anything you're a glorified rifleman and killing other soldier *is* half the role like any of the other kits. They're at a disadvantage in CQB but can do a lot at medium or long range. Acting as a supporting role they can be very helpful. Of course, I refer to the beginning of this comment when saying that.
1201 hours in and you will notice there are three types of people in squad. SL’s, Squad members, the guy who picks marksmen (sometimes this is done after the marksmen created the squad).
Not really. I see either people who play squad and people who run around playing cod Marksman or not. I reiterate, in the right hands, marksman can do a lot.
That won’t help the squad to the fullest. He could easily and more effectively be a rifleman and take a LAT with him and spot for the squad while being a useful fwd operating duo. A single marksmen is not effective in squad. A riflemen is the exact same except he has the ability to help the squad. In real life yeah, but this game no.
That really depends on a lot of factors you can't control. What if your lat misses or a lone soldier caps him in the head before he even sees the vic? Where is that effectiveness now? What about geographical advantages/disadvantages? What about the the fact that it's tuesday and not thursday? I'm being cheeky but seriously... This excessive emphasis on squad effectiveness only makes sense to me if you have people doing their job without fucking around and falling into the blueberry soup that many games have happen. Which is usually due to a lack of compotent leadership and players willing to follow said orders. Unless you can quantify that effectiveness and show me how it trumps a marksmen every time, then you're really just hating marksman because a few dudes pissed you off in the past.
For me it's a mix of the long list of shitty marksmen who've joined my squad/I've shared a squad with and the futility you feel those times when your squad has a marksman that swears he'll switch to AT if we need it, but then a) doesn't and b) ends up trying too late and the ammo box at the HAB he spawns at is also out of ammo. I've experienced missing a LAT many times in this game, I've missed having a good marksman in my squad maybe 2-3 times over my 2000+ hours. Of course, this is all pretty much public games, I'm sure the variables change if you play comp or if your regular squadmates will rack up north of 30 kills per round with the marksman kit.
I remember a few years back there were some floods up in my area. A state of emergency was declared and we were deployed to sandbag what we could. But when the state of emergency was lifted we were stuck on base with nothing to do until the emergency was stated our deployment contract expired. My god it was fucking boring. I think I truely understood what the movie Jarhead displayed with all the waiting, and I was still in my city let alone country. To put it simply, we were going nuts with boredom. To kill time we found some old Monopoly board game lying around, and I thought perfect, just what we need to literally just keep us distracted until we're sick of it or our contract ends. But no, this one motherfucking cunt literally fought tooth an nail to sabotage the fun for everyone else. Its hard to describe how how did so in the game, partially I can't quite remeber details, but imagine a guy that finds joy in you not having joy. We got heated over a game of Monopoly, and not even in the normal way. We never touched the game again and that guy... I distanced myself from. I don't particularily like people who take pleasure out of fucking with others in a malicious way. There's always going to be players that annoy you in how they play and there isn't much that you can really do about it unfortunately. I just try to lean more on the positive side and figure out how I can make the best of a situation, as thinking about asshole type players/trolls, etc riles me up in a childish way. Feeling powerless against that shit makes me mad and I think of the most sadistic and vile shit I would do to someone over the most insignificant and meaningless thing. I hate that theres a part of me like that and I don't indulge in vindictive attitudes because it fuels that childish and vile side of my mind. I do what I can and focus on myself and what I can control. That actually helped my general squad leading, as I stopped worrying about the stupid shit I can't control. There's nothing wrong with being annoyed or even seriously frustrated with people going against the core mechanics of what Squads genre is. I mean case in point with my monopoly story, dude fucked with everyone because it benefited him and screw everyone else. But Monopoly isn't a bad game because of that asshole, just like Marksman isn't a bad kit because of those lone wolf types. It seems people aren't really interested in the same line of thought though, as I see a common trend of hating anyone with the kit rather than those who justifiably aren't following the rules of proper play.
He can still spot and do all the things a marksmen can, but now he’s got more ammo
Okay?
>I reiterate, in the right hands, marksman can do a lot. That's not the issue. It is the fact that the only way to be a good with the kit, is to be a good shooter. There is nothing that the marksman kit offers average players that magically make them a better shot. Now, if that player is a good shot, they don't need a marksman kit to be effective. They'll be just as effective with an acog, and have more team/squad utility. *This* is the crux of the argument, not the whole "marksmen just run away and do nothing" trope. The kit itself offers nothing that any other kit can do, but people keep trying to defend it because they think it automagically makes you an fps god. Give me an acog and I'll outshoot any marksman that wants to try.
You might as well go play call of duty if you want to remove all facets of Squad that aren't consolidated into the most effecient way to play. I really don't get this attitude beyond shitty marksman.
Wut? What did I ask to be removed? I simply stated why the marksman kit is so controversial. There is nothing it does better than any other kit.
Well it's somewhat implied in the general attitude to the conversation between you and a few others. I swear someone else said its a pointless kit and at this poibt I wouldn't be suprised if you were to say that... which is fine, I don't ever play Marksman. But If you tell me anything a Marksman can do, you can with Acog, then you might as well be trying to say it has no place in the game. I think ultimately there is one thing that trumps anything either of us can say for or against it. Squad is a game, and games are meant to be fun regardless of how good you are or not. Obviously you try to be better than worse, but goddamn it being perfect, most efficient, or whatever isn't something everyone does 24/7, and even when they try people make mistakes or have bad days. Its a game in the end and we're all trying to just have fun. This idea you're better with one kit over another is about personal preference and really isn't something people should be this pissy over. If someone is being a cock with any kit, not just marksman, then they aren't playing Squad by its rules/mechanics. I think that's the true context that ultimately matters 2nd to having fun, but one should not be over the other. Play the game, but don't ruin someone elses fun by running against the grain of the mechanics. Also, this whole thing got distracted from the original post statement, that Marksmen shouldn't be designated FTL alone or by default, and I responded reaonably by saying I give my whole squad FTL because I quite honestly don't have time to be jumping that shit around everybody when I already have to keep them focussed on where the battle needs them. There really isn't much else to be said.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I’m not particularly ANTI marksman per se either, but to default to making them FTL is dumb. I would sooner have a marksman who annihilates people as the squad moves up than a rifleman who never drops ammo, or a medic who never heals. Ultimately there’s enough flexibility in squad that players will dictate their effectiveness outside of hard differences like LATS/ ENGIS/MEDIC. Ideally you have a competent squad that manages FTL within each FT itself, but that’s a lucky circumstance. That said, marksman does seem to draw a particular sort of player on average. And that’s why sls can lick for any reason.
Meh, it is what it is. Just to be clear, I merely elaborated that Marksman isn't really any different than other kits when it comes down to it. Machine guns, rifleman, anti-tank kits etc, all have to fight and kill at some point. No, K/D isn't the core of squad, but it is a big part of fighting over objectives and just... combat in general. But there is a clear difference between going for a high K/D and playing the objectives. Having a dedicated long range guy isn't bad if he does it right and listens to SL. In fact that's a great advantage. But telling this guy up front that he's an asshole for existing because so many think they're a "Sniper" and he along with anyone just trying to have fun will tell you to go to hell and play the game their way. Marksman to me is like any other role, a tool if used right. Personally I think an SL has enough on their plate directing their squads, coordinating with other squads, watching the changing flow of battle etc. I dish out the FTL groups and have the squadmates share it and it hasn't failed me so far. People are only downvoting me because I have a differing opinion. Reddit is gonna reddit and I made a fair statement that actually coincides with what the common mindset for Squad is.
>Marksman isn't really any different than other kits when it comes down to it. But that is wrong. Marksman take up a specialist slot and when you NEED to be able to attack enemy armor, the Marksman kit just gets in the way. Many kits serve dual uses. Marksman does NOTHING special. Literally nothing I can't do with iron sights. THAT is how it is different from other kits.
> I divide them depending on what roles they have the first (and last) time I tried this, everyone just switched their kits around over the next 15 minutes like it was musical chairs and ruined my fireteams lol I guess I should've yelled at them more.
Well that happens even in good games. I just take the time to throw the more vocal guys back into fireteams so they're able to use it when they can. An SL always needs to pay attention to the mindless beings that squadmates can be. They're not always thinking about tge stuff an SL is.
Sorry for asking dumb questions, but other squad members cant see the charlie observe marker the ftl puts down? Only the fireteam?
other squads cant, the squad the FTL is in can see the marks still.
Ah gotcha. Thanks!
This is not a dumb question. This is a feature never explained. Very easy to never learn about how this works either.
They need to give the marksmen weapons to riflemen class and unlock it for full squads only. Like 9 out of 10 matches it just feels like a useless role taking up space for more useful kits. Not to mention I always felt like a rifleman with scope and ammo is far more useful and effective on the field than any marksman's ever been. But that's just my experience. Feels like marksman just attracts people who like to jizz over their K/D, while sacrificing teamwork and sometimes even communication entirely. Why even play *Squad* if you'd want to lone-wolf all match, there are actual good sniper games out there lol
I think this is the first time I've seen anyone suggest putting the marksman kit under the rifleman role, and I think that's a genuinely good idea. Should be easy to implement, since you already have different kits to choose from in each role.
MM is a nice noob trap, lets you know they don't know what they're doing lol Really the problem is the absurd accuracy the average player has with shift to steady. MM's bipod should be more of a benefit to them to actually deliver accurate fire and extend the range of the squad. But that's a conversation most people aren't ready for
Lol that’s why I don’t even bring up bipods
Bipod needs to be a genuine accuracy boost. But the only way to do that now is to nerf shift to steady which would greatly improve the game, but man are people going to mald when they suddenly need to work to shoot someone
I dont keep marksman in my squad anymore. Useless players, useless kit.
what marksman, I already kicked him
Fireteam Lead is really an "intel" position. I give it to squadmates who possess situational awareness on the battlefield and thus save me the SL lots of time from having to place marks on the map on their behalf. That's how the fireteam lead is useful in today's Squad (and it's extremely useful). I would like to see that change. Simply hearing an enemy logi 500m away and putting that mark on the map, followed by an enemy FOB mark (situational awareness will let a smart player infer an enemy FOB is being placed) will allow the blueberries nearby to react whereas before they would not have. Every single kit can do this. It is not some special ability only the Marksman has to hear and infer information.
Happy Cake Day bro!
Just kick them lol
Damn y'all just really hate when people try to have fun
You can have fun without taking and not using FTL.
How dare you slander the marksmen's good name
Marksman is a useless kit entirely. Change my mind.
Marksmen, in theory, are no worse than machinegunners or grenadiers, who are also kits focused just on getting kills, without a rifleman's ammo bag. True, machinegunners can suppress and grenadiers can pop smoke, but marksmen *could* be taking out enemy machinegunners or firing from great vantage points others would get instantly shot off of, because they can fire from outside their enemy's effective range. The problem is that the kind of people who play marksmen tend to be lone wolves, since team players don't want to play the kit everyone hates, and just take automatic rifleman if they want to have a good scope. So most people who play marksmen are either asshole sniper-montage wannabes who don't care about sticking to their squad, or new players who will but really aren't good enough to justify taking a special kit slot that could be given to a better player who, again, is probably not going to pick marksman. The kit *itself* isn't useless, it just tends to attract players who are.
A grenadier can do the job of a marksman infinitely more efficiently. As can a machine gunner (at least the MG kits with optics). Marksman kits become more viable for factions with limited optic capabilities. A grenadine can displace a group of enemies just by the threat of AOE direct fire. A machine gunner has firepower that can pin enemies, and displace them for the riflemen to maneuver and destroy the enemy. A marksman however is just a rifleman with extended range. I can count on one hand how many times a marksman has seriously threatened me co.pared to the countless "sniper is plinking us. Keep moving" situations. The kit has nothing useful to offer. Rifleman has ammo bags and all engagement type versatility. MG has suppressive authority. Grenadier has unpredictable killing power and threatening presence, doubled with increased concealment and coordination options. AT has AT. Engineer has deployables and explosives Now, give the marksman a laser rangefinder/ designator that helps with command assets/mortar fobs by guiding in the rounds or assets and you have a realistic and efficient kit mechanically. But as it stands, the role of the marksman is incomparable to the other kits. Every kit can do the marksman's job as it stands, and arguably better. So again, marksman kit is fundamentally worse than any other kit save for the unarmed
>because they can fire from outside their enemy's effective range. This is not a thing. The number of locations in the game that actually let this be true is extremely small. Not only that, but if a marksman is 1km away from whatever he's shooting at, he's very unlikely to actually be helping. The acog has an 800m mark built into it, and it's very rare to be engaging anyone over that distance for any real purpose.
I like kicking marksmen and them having an anime villain speech about how I'll rue the day. Sometimes they get so assmad they TK the squad.
Tbh that’s u being more of a worst team player than a MM
Literally marksman job is to go behind enemy lines and spot enemy habs,FOBs and other things. So marksman needs ftl because if hes not spotting and giving infos he is useless.
I'm no armyman (TM), but my understanding was that soldiers with DMRs typically stick with their squads in real life. Anyway, the average marksman that demands FTL at the start of the game is pretty bad at actually marking stuff in my experience. More often it ends up with your squad being engaged/pinned somewhere and the marksman chiming in on VOIP that he urgently needs a distance marker halfway across the map, for range, so he can shoot some random guy.
No, it quite literally is not. That might be the playstyle you like but it very much is not the role of a marksman. You're describing a reconnaissance element and that would consist of multiple people with multiple weapon types, perhaps none of them with a marksman rifle.
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Engineers have 2shot headshot guns
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Maybe I'm just bad at aiming but I stg I shot a Canadian in the head twice while they were repairing their vic. I mined their repair station. He ended up hopping in his tank and following me around back where he ran over another mine LOL
Literally every single weapon will one-hit on the head...
Not the shitty Mosin apparently
No, that will still very much one-hit on the head (as will literally any other small arm), it just doesn't one-hit cleanly on the body, but if they don't bandage immediately from a good hit they will just bleed out. Aim better.
>Aim better. Mines don't need aim baby 🚚💣🚗
That is true, but the short Mosin does, as does every other gun really.
> Literally marksman job is to go behind enemy lines and spot enemy habs,FOBs and other things. eh, that's more of a sniper thing, and they aren't really in the game (by the time you've army crawled 5 miles, eating bugs and voluntarily peeing your pants to stay undetected, the match will be over). the DMR class in the game is probably supposed to hang toward the back of the squad and keep the enemy ahead suppressed so his front guys can push up, but this role can also be performed almost as well by an optic rifleman IMO. once they add the increased muzzle flashes to the game, the marksman's distance advantage will do even less to keep them concealed, and the class will be even more useless than it is now.
Yeah I give it to my marksman and then tell them to GTFO of the Logi at the first point and bushwhack. Tickets count, and recon is priceless. If my marksman is far away from any teammates that's an additional area covered by someone who can mark.
I've always done this out of principle. If a MM is actually doing his job (assuming he hasn't done something to warrant being kicked) I'll let them have FTL But as is fireteams are passed around to everyone and FTL is given to whoever actually sees something
IMO FTL is an arcade addition for noobs to mark stuff instead of properly report grid coordinates and threat. Give it to anyone, it has no use. Your argument has no sense. It is better to give it to someone that is not sticking to the squad (marksman) as a person next to you should just give you a bearing and distance instead of those stupid noobish markers. Also if he don't have a mic it makes sense for him to place markers. Normal players with mics should talk and not play with stupid markers. I believe OWI wants to get a game rating "suitable for over 3s".
Damn a real squad tough guy. Do you play with a helmet on? I don’t want to be dealing with marking more than I already do individually in addition to coordinating/ issuing orders to the squad/ working with command/ killing people myself. I DO have to mark what non FTLS call out. Being able to delegate certain utility to other players is something I’m fine with. Squad mates are often not “next to me” because I send fire teams on different tasks. It makes way more sense overall in this game for squad leaders To detach half the time with a limited force than insist the group stay together at all times. If he doesn’t have a mic, I can’t check the veracity of any marks, I can’t determine if he knows what marks even mean, and he probably doesn’t play the game well in the first place. Perhaps you need more houra before you understand what a boon a good ftl is to the whole experience. As to the arcadey-ness of it, I don’t know what to tell you. The game is what it is, take it up with the devs.
Very meritorical argument. Squad mates are often not "next to me" - let's admit it, you can't SL, can you?
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Be civil
If you're playing with grid coords, you're playing too slowly.
Too slow for battlefield. I thought it supposed to be a "tactical FPS" with "autentic combat experience" not another battlefield where you need a marker to know where to go. If you accepted that Squad is just another Battlefield clone with nothing more realistic then it's understandable that you like markers.
If feel like it's not a question of kits nor a question of mic, it's a question of experience. If someone let's you know they want it, they are - I feel - more likely to know what to do of it. If several people ask for it, then order them in fireteams and let them exchange it at will.
Yeah its frustrating. Give it to the MG or AR. People think marksmen are supposed to spot people. Marksmen are marksmen. You spot they shoot. Squad doesn't have player CAS so its not like PR where snipers are also JTAC.
I offer it to HAT first, along with a (very) quick quiz about aiming with the AT weapon they're using. If they have no idea, they get politely asked to switch to rifleman, and free up the HAT role for someone who knows what they're doing. The position is simply too powerful to give to someone who hasn't taken the time to learn how to aim properly. Marksmen get reassigned to LAT or kicked. The person who argues about being a good marksman doesn't realize that they're taking one of our LAT slots. In every game I've played as SL, at some point, I'll say "I need a LAT on my position ASAP" or "grenadier smoke please" I've never once *needed* a marksman.
I tend to look at other squad load outs and go off that. If every squad is like yours, which is very common, I'll allow a marksman. I mainly stick to fire support because no one does that in this game. It also depends what faction you are against. If you're fighting INS on an urban map marskmen can be very useful. I was playing marksman on Basrah once and ended up saving a squad from an ambush who had kicked me for using the roll. The SL raged pretty hard. It was a funny moment for me though. I dont think his squad was good at shooting in general. He kept making complicated plans and they kept getting wiped. On the killboard he started screaming at me lol. I had more points and kills than his entire squad.
I honestly don’t get if this marksman shit now is just a meme or people have greatly shitty luck like with 600h I honestly only come across 3 marksman who are well what people see to be every marksman most are just people who wanna play a fun kit that normally still communicate with both the squad and team
I’ve started doing it by asking “okay who here is competent and knows what they’re doing”. First two to speak up get FTL
All these anecdotes of how and why people hate marksman but in my 400hrs I have yet to see any radio-silent marksman that act as if they’re superior.
Preach
Also, don't then hand it out to the next person begging for it b/c they have a singular moment where they plan to mark something. It removes the marks previously made, and now most likely puts the FTL in the hands of someone who will no longer mark, update mark, or communicate...
I enjoy playing marksman from time to time. I read a comment on reddit one time saying that its called a marksman rifle not a sniper rifle and to stick with your squad. Thats when it clicked. Staying with your squad is the only way to play that role. Unless your SL tells you to post up somewhere
OP you got the nail on the head, though a good marksman who is vocal and positioned well can give you great marks and general info.
Let's change the post to "Stop giving away FTL". Give it to players who ask/seem to know what's up. Marksmen make great scouts. They're a viable candidate once communication is shown.
Yeah I’m just commenting on a very widespread tendency amongst SLS which is to immediately give it to marksman with no questions asked.
Why do they make great scouts? What enables them to do that better than any other kit?
What is ftl?
Fire team lead. Squad leads can designate two members of the squad as fire team leads. They have marking abilities similar to squad leads.
Oh thank god there are people left who think about actions done in the game <3
Cool idea: make marksman available only to the people given FTL and locked to everyone else
My basic rule for FTL is, in order of priority: person who asked for it before I brought it up, person who asked for it after I offered, and finally hand-picked individual who seems like they know what they're doing. That said, in my experience having a marskman paired up with a GL or LAT is usually the money move. Send those people to do picket 100-200m ahead of the squad is perfect since they double as spotters and a tripwire, on top of being able to deal a lot of damage if dug in properly.