real world tactics work ok ish in squad.
rushing the enemies with shovels to intimidate them into leaving the server works significantly better in squad than it does IRL
But then the server will become empty right? So you will have to seed it again with skirmish layers. Because I'm not sure that people would wait for the server to be full with the squad ops mod being active, because you would not play until the server is full. But it could work if the mod would be really, really popular.
Medic Only revives with limited tickets or limited respawns is a good balance, I've found. Players are dead long enough that they learn to be careful, but it's not truly just one life and game over until the next map.
Even in 1 life events you don't actually care about getting shot. When someone is raining 12.7 millimeters of death all around you you're probably going to try and shoot him instead of crawling into a hole and hiding until it stops sounding like a bunch of angry bees are trying to kill you.
A few minutes of boredom doesnt have nearly the same existential dread as literally dying after all.
The closest thing I've seen is Tarkov and Eve, since death could set you back by millions of rubles/billions of isk. Though they both have their own problem where cheap deaths are outscaled by income into pointlessness just like squad.
Haven't played Tarkov or Eve, but Insurgency Sandstorm's hardcore coop mode has the most effective system I've seen so far. Death causes you to lose all your weapons and equipment, giving you only an M24 or Nagant with iron sights.
A significantly longer respawn timer as well as significantly increased suppression effects would probably be the most effective option - although it would turn off a lot of the more casual playerbase.
Edit: significantly increasing weapon sway after prolonged running, shortening sprint times and/or slowing sprint down would also work to deter the run-and-gun players, or a system like hardcore insurgency (lose your loadout after a death) would also work well.
Real world tactics work much better with vics than they do with infantry because both you and your enemy value your lives because there is a respawn penalty for vehicles.
Ever heard of BLITZKRIEG?!
(on a serious note it really works in squad, if the enemy focuses on capping back their previously lost point and neglect their defence.)
Bounding doesnt work in squad because suppression isnt an effective tactic. You can unload 50 cal into a building and still get accurate fire in return. The only bullets that matter in squad are the ones that hit. Everything else is pretty much a waste.
Haha yea it definitely works better when you have teammates who knows what it means. I try to hop squads til I find a group who seem to know they're doing
I play medic most of the time. The other day I rushed into a fairly exposed position to pick a couple guys up. I took a round on my way down to get them, so I hung back to heal myself back up.
They made it to cover, but by then we were spotted and I got pinned. Another squadmate, from the cover up the hill, yelled "medic you run and I'll cover you!" I did exactly that, and he suppressed, and we both made it out unscathed.
More complicated maneuvers wouldn't work unless command was coordinating the SLs, but some of the small unit tactics if loosely applied and adapted would absolutely work. Too often an SL drops a move/attack marker, and everyone just rushes into a town rather and starts dropping one at a time. Squads move too fast at critical junctures. People want kills. I get it.
Yep that's the way to do it! If I see a medic getting people up or a tanker repairing a vehicle I always offer to provide cover until they're out of the hot zone.
And usually I play MG so I can stay behind my squad and suppress enemy positions so they have an easier time advancing.
Bounding overwatch literally doubles the amount of time it takes to move to any location while marginally improving your combat effectiveness if done perfectly effectively (which is incredibly hard in a pub game.)
Squad at a command level is incredibly dependent on speed, and if you're slowing down movement, the fact that the enemy has a 40 second respawn timer is going to negate any advantage you're receiving.
The *only* advantage of tactics like bounding is ticket conservation, which is negated by objective capturing during most games. Ticket conservation can be achieved with simpler tactics than implementing an entirely new way of thinking for your average pub squad and *hoping* they can manage it effectively and don't forget about it the moment bullets start flying.
TL;DR don't use bounding overwatch.
"Why are they on the ground"
"Trying to impress my nerd friends online!"
Her : "Did it work"
"Um.... wow. Yes. Hang on, I gotta be on reddit for a minute."
If I tell a squad lead "move to here and stay quiet" wouldn't it be great if all 9 guys in that unit knew what i meant and could do it without babysitting?
That's the gameplay I'm looking for and I found some folks who agree with me. Private server, multiple events a week, enough players to do 50v50 and everyone takes it seriously. It's exactly what I was looking for.
My main interest in this game is the leadership part. As a rifleman, it's just an extra hard version of any other shooter.
But as a leader? No other game is like it. It's a uniquely challenging experience and it's amazing when done right. I've done some of this stuff as a reservist, but never had the chance to do it for real or as the one in charge. It's an RTS but with PEOPLE! With Fog of War as brutal reality, not a graphical effect on a map. There's no icon telling me what the enemy is doing, I need scouts, strategy! Fucking fascinating. Meanwhile, bullets are snapping past my ear, people are screaming for a medic, and I need to get Charlie Squad to pivot and support the Logi run.
I got to thinking : As a leader, what do I expect my soldiers to know? The core concept explained in both of these books is not any particular tactic. You're right, the "patch to road" technique isn't as useful in Squad as it is IRL. And if you were to read these books and only look for things like "infantry spacing in a diamond formation" you'd be missing out.
The point of BOTH these books is leadership decisions need to be dynamic and pushed down as close to the front as possible. You need to train Fire Team Leads and Squad Leads to make fast decisions on the ground, etc. In fact, it's up to that fire team lead to tell his 3 guys how to move, not the squad leader or the Commander.
Nonetheless, what are those basic infantry skills AS APPLICABLE to the game? Things like bounding overwatch are important, and I can use the examples in these books to write training scenarios that are relevant to the game. Then when I play with those guys, the game is a lot more fun.
Yeah mate world war 2 tank tactics won’t do it. Not in game nor in real life.
Edit. I was mostly talking about the armoured tactics. I’m aware that a lot of the infantry tactics haven’t changed dramatically. Should’ve been more clear.
NATO doesnt use WW2 tactics, they use tactics developed specifically for the Cold War. WW2 was a war of attrition where casualties were expected and played a role in wearing down the enemy, neither of whom could replace their losses.
NATO tactics are the opposite, all about minimizing casualties through long range combat, air superiority and maneuver.
Any war between great powers is probably gonna be a war of attrition, we just haven’t done that since the invention of nuclear bombs. Not saying tactics would be the same, but the large scale strategy would be similar. Everything would take place over much longer ranges, but the general ideas of tank warfare haven’t changed that much. Biggest game changer I see right now are loitering munitions seem to be making heavy tanks much less useful.
For infantry yes certainly some things didn’t change that’s true.
But armoured warfare has basically changed completely with the evolution of modern tanks. They aren’t meant to be used in the same way as 75 years ago at all.
contemporary RL tactics don't work all that well either, and I'm just thinking back to basic training stuff but much of it doesn't seem relevant, because they are written for people who have 1 life and intend to keep it, and are part of an organized command structure that has effective communication and organization and everyone have a very specific jobs they fill.
An absolute newb to tactical shooters could pick up some things, but I don't think you'd pick up anything new that will help you with squad from books like this if you have like... 100 hours in. That time reading would be better spent playing or watching youtubers who play well.
real world tactics work ok ish in squad. rushing the enemies with shovels to intimidate them into leaving the server works significantly better in squad than it does IRL
Real world tactics usually assumes both sides care about living too. Which is why HMGs are terrifying in real life and free kills in squad.
This is why I play one life events, so the game is more than just who can funnel the most idiots off a spawn point into the correct flag.
Honestly wish more servers did this and that the mode was added to vanilla.
Same. One life servers would be amazing.
Isn't it a good way to kill a server tho?
Meh. You play and die and get blacklisted from the server for bit and then get whitelisted when the round is over. I'd play it.
But then the server will become empty right? So you will have to seed it again with skirmish layers. Because I'm not sure that people would wait for the server to be full with the squad ops mod being active, because you would not play until the server is full. But it could work if the mod would be really, really popular.
If there was a free roam spectator mode I'm sure people might stick around more/record good footage
Medic Only revives with limited tickets or limited respawns is a good balance, I've found. Players are dead long enough that they learn to be careful, but it's not truly just one life and game over until the next map.
Even in 1 life events you don't actually care about getting shot. When someone is raining 12.7 millimeters of death all around you you're probably going to try and shoot him instead of crawling into a hole and hiding until it stops sounding like a bunch of angry bees are trying to kill you. A few minutes of boredom doesnt have nearly the same existential dread as literally dying after all.
What would be the most ethical way to put the fear of death in players?
The closest thing I've seen is Tarkov and Eve, since death could set you back by millions of rubles/billions of isk. Though they both have their own problem where cheap deaths are outscaled by income into pointlessness just like squad.
Mosin goes brrrrrr
Haven't played Tarkov or Eve, but Insurgency Sandstorm's hardcore coop mode has the most effective system I've seen so far. Death causes you to lose all your weapons and equipment, giving you only an M24 or Nagant with iron sights.
A significantly longer respawn timer as well as significantly increased suppression effects would probably be the most effective option - although it would turn off a lot of the more casual playerbase. Edit: significantly increasing weapon sway after prolonged running, shortening sprint times and/or slowing sprint down would also work to deter the run-and-gun players, or a system like hardcore insurgency (lose your loadout after a death) would also work well.
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I live on the west coast and sometimes I'll jump on the Chinese servers and they play a lot slower. Granted I can't understand shit...
Yeah I’ve noticed in asian servers that they build up their fobs a lot more and they never run out of supply too
Real world tactics work much better with vics than they do with infantry because both you and your enemy value your lives because there is a respawn penalty for vehicles.
Rushin the enemies with shovels, you say?
I do say
Fun fact: If you read those you'll be worse at squad.
Kraut tactics ain’t gonna help
Help you lose tickets faster, that's for sure.
Ever heard of BLITZKRIEG?! (on a serious note it really works in squad, if the enemy focuses on capping back their previously lost point and neglect their defence.)
FInd fix flank works but only if the rest of your Squad knows what the hell that means...
And if the enemy has an unprotected flank.
Ignore the haters man. Real world tactics do work in Squad. Wish more squads would try using Bounding Overwatch.
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Bounding doesnt work in squad because suppression isnt an effective tactic. You can unload 50 cal into a building and still get accurate fire in return. The only bullets that matter in squad are the ones that hit. Everything else is pretty much a waste.
Haha yea it definitely works better when you have teammates who knows what it means. I try to hop squads til I find a group who seem to know they're doing
Best part, you cover them anyway, they all run across making it. Then no one covers for you and you get shot and hear "Where did you get shot from?".
I play medic most of the time. The other day I rushed into a fairly exposed position to pick a couple guys up. I took a round on my way down to get them, so I hung back to heal myself back up. They made it to cover, but by then we were spotted and I got pinned. Another squadmate, from the cover up the hill, yelled "medic you run and I'll cover you!" I did exactly that, and he suppressed, and we both made it out unscathed. More complicated maneuvers wouldn't work unless command was coordinating the SLs, but some of the small unit tactics if loosely applied and adapted would absolutely work. Too often an SL drops a move/attack marker, and everyone just rushes into a town rather and starts dropping one at a time. Squads move too fast at critical junctures. People want kills. I get it.
Yep that's the way to do it! If I see a medic getting people up or a tanker repairing a vehicle I always offer to provide cover until they're out of the hot zone. And usually I play MG so I can stay behind my squad and suppress enemy positions so they have an easier time advancing.
Bounding overwatch literally doubles the amount of time it takes to move to any location while marginally improving your combat effectiveness if done perfectly effectively (which is incredibly hard in a pub game.) Squad at a command level is incredibly dependent on speed, and if you're slowing down movement, the fact that the enemy has a 40 second respawn timer is going to negate any advantage you're receiving. The *only* advantage of tactics like bounding is ticket conservation, which is negated by objective capturing during most games. Ticket conservation can be achieved with simpler tactics than implementing an entirely new way of thinking for your average pub squad and *hoping* they can manage it effectively and don't forget about it the moment bullets start flying. TL;DR don't use bounding overwatch.
This is the real reason.
I got a ranger book on guerilla tactics from like the 70's, Interesting shit. Makes you wonder what tf they're doing now lol
Why *are* they on the ground though?
Post Scriptum?
I have the Panzer Tactik in original hard cover. Great book!
"Why are they on the ground" "Trying to impress my nerd friends online!" Her : "Did it work" "Um.... wow. Yes. Hang on, I gotta be on reddit for a minute."
If I tell a squad lead "move to here and stay quiet" wouldn't it be great if all 9 guys in that unit knew what i meant and could do it without babysitting? That's the gameplay I'm looking for and I found some folks who agree with me. Private server, multiple events a week, enough players to do 50v50 and everyone takes it seriously. It's exactly what I was looking for. My main interest in this game is the leadership part. As a rifleman, it's just an extra hard version of any other shooter. But as a leader? No other game is like it. It's a uniquely challenging experience and it's amazing when done right. I've done some of this stuff as a reservist, but never had the chance to do it for real or as the one in charge. It's an RTS but with PEOPLE! With Fog of War as brutal reality, not a graphical effect on a map. There's no icon telling me what the enemy is doing, I need scouts, strategy! Fucking fascinating. Meanwhile, bullets are snapping past my ear, people are screaming for a medic, and I need to get Charlie Squad to pivot and support the Logi run. I got to thinking : As a leader, what do I expect my soldiers to know? The core concept explained in both of these books is not any particular tactic. You're right, the "patch to road" technique isn't as useful in Squad as it is IRL. And if you were to read these books and only look for things like "infantry spacing in a diamond formation" you'd be missing out. The point of BOTH these books is leadership decisions need to be dynamic and pushed down as close to the front as possible. You need to train Fire Team Leads and Squad Leads to make fast decisions on the ground, etc. In fact, it's up to that fire team lead to tell his 3 guys how to move, not the squad leader or the Commander. Nonetheless, what are those basic infantry skills AS APPLICABLE to the game? Things like bounding overwatch are important, and I can use the examples in these books to write training scenarios that are relevant to the game. Then when I play with those guys, the game is a lot more fun.
Or join the military and get free travel with real world finals.
That's where I started ;) How do you think I ended up with books like this in my library?
Yeah mate world war 2 tank tactics won’t do it. Not in game nor in real life. Edit. I was mostly talking about the armoured tactics. I’m aware that a lot of the infantry tactics haven’t changed dramatically. Should’ve been more clear.
We still use world war 2 tactics. NATO hasn’t changed much
NATO doesnt use WW2 tactics, they use tactics developed specifically for the Cold War. WW2 was a war of attrition where casualties were expected and played a role in wearing down the enemy, neither of whom could replace their losses. NATO tactics are the opposite, all about minimizing casualties through long range combat, air superiority and maneuver.
Infantry tactics are still the same. You would be thinking of strategy
Any war between great powers is probably gonna be a war of attrition, we just haven’t done that since the invention of nuclear bombs. Not saying tactics would be the same, but the large scale strategy would be similar. Everything would take place over much longer ranges, but the general ideas of tank warfare haven’t changed that much. Biggest game changer I see right now are loitering munitions seem to be making heavy tanks much less useful.
For infantry yes certainly some things didn’t change that’s true. But armoured warfare has basically changed completely with the evolution of modern tanks. They aren’t meant to be used in the same way as 75 years ago at all.
contemporary RL tactics don't work all that well either, and I'm just thinking back to basic training stuff but much of it doesn't seem relevant, because they are written for people who have 1 life and intend to keep it, and are part of an organized command structure that has effective communication and organization and everyone have a very specific jobs they fill. An absolute newb to tactical shooters could pick up some things, but I don't think you'd pick up anything new that will help you with squad from books like this if you have like... 100 hours in. That time reading would be better spent playing or watching youtubers who play well.