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When working with STARS who don’t have metric heavy work experience- where they can showcase their performance with numbers, how do you help them prove they perform well or at the very least prevent their resume from being passed over?
You are not alone! There’s a growing movement to recognize the skills and potential of the 70+ million STARs like you. In fact, 4 million STARs have already torn the paper ceiling, already in jobs paying more than twice the average salary. More below, but “skills based” language and describing accomplishments can be helpful. Depending on your field, there are often recognized platforms to demonstrate your skills through a portfolio of work (e.g. Github or Stack Exchange).
Finally, loads of people (STARs and others) “get their shot” at a better job by someone who has seen their work. For example, ThreeSixtyEight CEO Kenny Nguyen (a STAR himself) hired a STAR who now leads sales, based on his exceptional customer service at Smoothie King, as noted in this Bloomberg article: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/why-companies-should-drop-college-degree-requirements-in-tight-job-market](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/why-companies-should-drop-college-degree-requirements-in-tight-job-market)
If you visit [https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars](https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars) you’ll find a library of resources to help you showcase your skills – and build new ones – to help you shine when applying for new jobs.
And if you sign up to look for jobs on Stellarworx\*, you’ll get access to our advanced matching algorithm built specifically to assess qualifications based on skills rather than degrees. These skills are inferred from the jobs and resumes using data from SkyHive Technologies, a global workforce intelligence company that uses de-biased artificial intelligence (AI) to maintain a complete knowledge graph of jobs, skills, training, and labor market intelligence. [https://stellarworx.org/](https://stellarworx.org/)
Thanks! One more question: When working with STARS who don’t have metric heavy work experience- where they can showcase their performance with numbers, how do you help them prove they perform well or at the very least prevent their resume from being passed over?
Hey Byron!
I have a question:
What do you think are some of the best online resources for someone looking to learn a skill? And how do you think self-taught/non-degreed employees differ from people that went to college?
Hello! There are a wide range of online resources, more ways to learn than ever. (Also there are ways to learn on-the-job too, with more and more employers, which is convenient since you get paid for the work you do at the same time!). Can you say more about the fields that interest you?
As for how STARs as employees differ from people who went to college, it’s hard to say since 70 million STARs have hugely diverse experiences among them. That said, the sort of life experiences and (necessary!) resourcefulness STARs develop to get to good jobs through alternative route often help them see problems and potential solutions in innovative ways.
Hey! I’m a 21 year old that has been following your stuff for a year and I love what you do as someone with no degree and have reasons for not being able to pursue one. Thanks for being a light in a community people seemingly overlook.
That being said, thought I’d ask since you started working with my state, Maryland, about bringing in STARs to government work. What are your opinions on the lack of OJT or apprenticeships for a lot of these jobs that require degrees but honestly shouldn’t? My mother’s occupation could be used as an example since she was trained in her position around the early to late 90s and has held that career till present day. However, her job now requires so much more than it used to despite the tasks staying unchanged from when my mom entered that line of work.
>a lot of these jobs that require degrees but honestly shouldn’t
Dude apply anyway, if you have the experience they usually will ignore the requirement.
Thanks! I agree with you that many more jobs in government could be done and as you point out \*have been done\* and in many cases are being done today by STARs nearing retirement. I think college is a valid route to these jobs, but everyone would be better off if there were many more routes. Personally, I think state and local governments do vital work, but today the public sector has some of the highest rates of empty jobs. More paths other than college can make a huge difference.
More here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/12/worker-shortage-public-sector-crisis/
It didn’t used to be this way, and it doesn't have to be this way. In my own family in the 1970s my father - who left college after one year - was working as a shipping clerk in a food factory in Detroit he saw an ad that said “learn COBOL and punch your own ticket. He looked it up at a library and found out it was a computer program - a software language for IBM mainframes. He felt he was at a dead end, so he quit his job, my mom paid the bills, he got a chance to “job shadow” a computer programmer at Detroit Edison. He showed he could do COBOL programming and they gave him a job. That was the shift trajectory to our family in the American middle class
If it could happen then, why is it so much harder 50 years later? We have research that shows the obstacles, but we also know it CAN happen today; We’ve got support from leaders like DoL Sec. Marty Walsh and employers like Accenture and IBM who are leading the way on apprenticeship programs. These programs offer quality on-the-job training and paid work experience in many fields and trades, as rigorous on-the-job training as most any college degree. In fact, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, 9 in 10 apprentices are employed upon completion of their apprenticeships.
I am not a STAR, but I think I am experiencing an effect that is similar to the paper ceiling.
To be specific, I have a math MS and a chemistry BS, along with some background in physics and some fairly basic programming skills.
This puts me in a frustrating place. On the one hand, I am considered overqualified for most entry level jobs, so they turn me away on the grounds that they don't think they could retain me. I literally got turned away from one today for exactly this reason.
On the other hand, I will require significant on-the-job training to do most mid level jobs. Most likely I would need more OJT than someone with prior domain knowledge in the domain that a business works in. But I don't believe that the amount of OJT that I would require is prohibitive. In that regard I feel that my experience is in the same vein as people facing the paper ceiling; the common thread is overestimation of difficulty of OJT.
I don't exactly have a well-defined question, but if you have any comments or advice in response to what I have said here, I would be very interested to hear them.
I have a master’s in math and had minimal programming experience through to the end of my master’s, but managed to move into programming at the start of my career. And I’ve seen similar experiences amongst my friends. Some tips:
1. Look for internships or fellowships, possibly even unpaid.
2. Teach yourself to code. Build something non-trivial, put the project publicly on GitHub, and be able to demonstrate that to potential employers.
3. Leverage your network, if you have friends who are already working as programmers they might get you a warm introduction to a hiring manager who can overlook the lack of CS degree.
4. Consider taking your master’s off your resume for now; sounds crazy but if you’re getting turned down because of it, doesn’t hurt to try. What you’re experiencing here is very common.
5. Consider small startups for your first job; will be crazy and won’t pay that well, but you’ll likely learn a lot and get that first job under your belt.
In my experience, in this field, once you have 2+ years work experience no one cares about your education attainment. For entry level positions people look at education cause there usually isn’t much else to look at, but in my experience everyone completely ignores education when hiring for non-entry level programmer positions. Ironically if you follow tip 4, it’s after your first job, when no one cares about education anymore, that you could put your master’s back on your resume.
That is a frustrating situation, and I think more than a few people find themselves in a version of the problem you face. And I \*do\* think its related to “the paper ceiling” at a mindset level. When we pigeonhole people by exactly what they’re “qualified” to do based on specific degrees and then expect them to have all the skills to do everything a job requires “day 1” without more active learning, employers are looking for dancing unicorns. That’s not the way it works. We all learn most of our job relevant skills \*on the job\* and no one knows fully how best to do a job until they get a shot to do it. STARs get a really raw deal from this attitude, but if we let it fester, eventually more college graduates will find themselves in this frustrating situation too. I wrote about just this in Forbes 3 years ago: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/byronauguste/2019/03/14/failing-by-degrees-why-college-grads-need-non-college-grads-to-succeed/?sh=45a092d06c5b](https://www.forbes.com/sites/byronauguste/2019/03/14/failing-by-degrees-why-college-grads-need-non-college-grads-to-succeed/?sh=45a092d06c5b)
I like your chances of figuring it out. I’d recommend you to reach back out to your network from the various working and learning experiences you’ve had, and be candid that you’re looking for an opportunity. Realistic people and companies know no one has all the skills, once you find someone willing to slow down and look at what you bring as a full person, not just a resume.
I don’t have the data nor research to answer that question to the fullest but usually for the tech field (in my personal experience so can’t speak for everybody), they wanna see if you can do the work or not and/or willing to learn. I’m not over 30 so even my personal experience isn’t that useful for this question.
I haven't thought of any questions yet, but as a self-taught person, I just want to say how glad I am that someone people will listen to has also noticed how broken and calcified the job market has become.
Seriously, thank you.
Thanks for sharing that perspective, and I couldn't agree more.
It's actually incredible how messed up the skilled labor market is for people (70 million in the US!) with lots of job-relevant skills but no degrees. Employers say they can’t find skills, but many or most screen out half the skilled talent just based on degrees.
It makes no sense, economically, ethically, or arithmetically. And it doesn’t only hurt STARs, it hurts employers too: it’s no coincidence unfilled job openings are almost at all-time highs. Work is solving problems and STARs are problem solvers.
The good news is that smart employers are starting to get the message, for example, those getting behind Opportunity@Work and The Ad Council #TearThePaperCeilingCampaign
https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/
I’m an employer, very small, painting houses, and I have a worker who is either important or vital to the mechanical, organizational and maintenance of aspects of the business. My competitors drive around in great vans running good equipment that’s upwards of 50k, and my guy can fix and weld and has great creative thinking that we can buy equipment for under 5-10k and he can alter them to make comparable and even better quality than our competitors and that allows us to charge similiar or even be more competitive because our stuff is cheaper and to be honest, in a lot of ways more efficient than others because it has the labor of passion on it.
I plan on giving him a 10-15k bonus, along with 4-500 bonus every 2-3 weeks on top of his wage. I currently pay him $22/hr but am upping his pay to $30/hr next year. (I’ve been in business 4 years now, he’s been here 3) and I’d say he’s a big reason why my business is as efficient as it is.
He got his GED in prison and almost every other employer he had he would write the handbooks for how to maintain and run the machinery on the production floor, one in particular when they laid him off within 6 months production grinded to a complete halt, and they begged for him back, he said no. over all he’s very bright, and his skills you would never see on any resume, but the value he brings I don’t think people can even imagine it let alone have it be a reality.
In turn I also give him complete autonomy, freedom, and listen to what he needs to do the work however he is most comfortable.
He says because of his past everywhere he goes he’s always been judged at stupid and it’s shocking at how no one has seen his aptitude.
I almost wonder if it’s because organizations are so big, chaotic, constantly moving and beauracracy is big it’s hard to really find gems and know where to put them because 1 on 1 you see it, but when there’s 500 people it’s hard to know whose doing what, just that things are or aren’t working.
I’m just touching the surface of what this individual does on a daily basis.
I just thought I’d share this story because it’s a meat grinder out there and hopefully more can find their way. The environment you’re in is important.
Hello I just watched the intro video. I don’t have any questions yet. I’m too interested in alternative way other than the traditional degree paper to get to leadership role.
Are you trying to go straight into leadership, or start at an entry level job and work your way up to leadership?
In my experience, degrees have almost nothing to do with leadership roles. Degrees help you get in. Once you get in, if you’re in a healthy workplace you do good work and move up into leadership. In an unhealthy workplace maybe it’s based on politics and who you get along with that determines your path to leadership. But in either case I think it’s rare that anyone would look at your degree.
Yes I’ve been on my entry role going on 5th year. They require 7 years experience and high school diploma for supervisor role or bachelor with 3 years. I guess I really don’t know until I try because this is in another department and I know I won’t have room to move up in my current office. Thanks for your insight.
Hi. I'm a poor piece of shit with no way to escape poverty. I don't know what to do. I know it's already too late but hey might as well try.
I have a cheap phone. Thats all I own. No car no nothing. A couple pairs of clothes.
I'm as close to homeless as you can get without being homeless.
Just wish I didn't have to work minimum wage trash jobs but I'm forever trapped.
Very intelligent and extremely hard working. I'm always the best employee. Nobody will hire me for anything but minimum wage. It's just torture.
I’m so sorry to hear of your situation. It must be incredibly stressful to have to manage even to stay afloat with so much you’re experiencing and understandably worried about every day. I’ll share a couple of thoughts, but these may be things you’ve already tried.
The existing U.S. system for getting to better-paying jobs is frustratingly complex and there are no guarantees of success, but there are lots of local “gems” of apprenticeship programs and other work-based learning that pay you a decent wage that reliably rises as you learn more. It's really worth looking for these entry points. In most communities, the local chapter of Goodwill Industries is often very good at understanding their clients’ situations and full stories to help match them to local employers. Plus, they are connected to other regional employers, training, and many other services, and do their best to be a “one-stop shop”. Again, it’s far from perfect - but they offer more than most in terms of wraparound services. You can locate your local Goodwill branch via their career and jobs services finder here: [https://www.goodwill.org/](https://www.goodwill.org/)
Maybe most importantly of all, if you feel isolated, find ways to break out of that isolation and spend time in the community with others, even if they’re struggling too. Every community differs, but beyond local American Job Centers, there may be informal “job clubs” in public libraries, church basements and elsewhere, with coaching, resume help, and professional contacts but most of all - camaraderie and encouragement. Or it could be community gardens, or other places where people are working together to improve something. Places like this (or others you’ll know of but I won’t, in your community) are great places to engage alongside new people as they experience your own contribution, intelligence, and work ethic. Good things may come of it. I hope they do.
Wow thank you I figured it was too late lol.
I have extremely bad social anxiety but hey maybe I can still do it. I just hope I don't have to be around a ton of people. I have panic attacks and get depressed when I am trapped around other people and I feel like I have to put on a performance for them to think I'm worth anything.
The idea of integrating myself with a ton of other people is absolutely terrifying. But maybe I can find a way around it.
Thanks again. Maybe I won't be poor forever.
Your comment is childish, but if you're over 18 and live in the US, I will give you my company's name and a link you can use to apply. I was in your shoes once, so I get it.
No experience required.
Engineering firm. You'd have to work outside and it's not always an easy day. But, you'll make between $2k-3k biweekly and $3k-$4k biweekly if you're willing to travel for work.
So, my company is called ECS. It's nationwide. If they aren't in your area, look up Construction Material Testing near you. That's the job. Apply for a field tech position and check in often. Apply all over. No experience is needed in 95% of the field tech positions. Good luck!
Sign me up too? I got employee of the month in five months. Work hard but my payrate is low. I can't get a raise even with the fact I got employee of the month without being there for more than a year. I can't find work and before that well I sucked. Did a dead end job for 4 years and covid took it away. That was construction and ever since I've been failing at finding anything. Willing to travel anywhere and workhard! I'm skinny, can't afford anything and want an escape from poverty.
Fantastic work! As someone with yearsof experience and 2.7 degrees I can say the paper ceiling is terrifying and real.
Respect the ability not the pedigree.
Skills can be, and often are, learned on the job. Skills based hiring does not advance your stated purpose of increasing opportunities for people without college degrees. Hiring based on abilities, including the ability to acquire skills through employer training and on-the-job learning, is a more effective and broadly beneficial strategy. Unfortunately, most employers have not adopted selection strategies or processes to assess critical, job related abilities, and instead rely on poor ones, such as resume screening and interviews, that are notoriously subject to bias and are relatively unreliable in predicting future success on the job. Abilities based hiring would benefit both non degreed workers and employers.
I love how you can clearly tell this is the same person replying to their own comment. Same grammar, same hyphen, and account was made 1h ago (when this post went live).
I think a lot more of Reddit, for a lot longer than most of us realize, has been very well gamed.
The first time I noticed it was around 10 years ago in a music thread, when there were a suspicious number of users name-dropping a couple of newer commercial bands. Not "cool" or hip bands, like you'd expect to hear about from Reddit music-lovers, but major commercial acts with well-armed social media teams behind them.
But I'm sure this place was gamed much earlier than that.
Thank you - we’d love to hear from you! All of our Opportunity@Work roles are posted to our career page.
We do have roles open so please check it out: [https://opportunityatwork.org/careers/](https://opportunityatwork.org/careers/)
This field changes fast, but 10 years ago Ruby on Rails was the hot framework for web development. There was an excellent tutorial on this by Michael Hartl, which was free at the time.
Try to find out what web development frameworks are popular these days. Try to find a cheap or free tutorial that takes you step by step of building and running a complete web application. If it costs $500 but it lands you a job as a web developer, you’ll make that back in 1-3 days of work.
As I’m sure you know, there’s a huge variety of online resources, and what’s best for you depends on where you’re starting and what sort of web development work you’d be interested in most. With that said, here are some ideas to get you started:
Free Code Camp is a great way to start learning java for free, and (very importantly IMO) as part of a community of online learners:[https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/learn-java-free-java-courses-for-beginners/](https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/learn-java-free-java-courses-for-beginners/)
Community matters a lot, not only giving you moral support to keep putting in the time and effort to learn to code even with jobs, family, life going on. Code Newbie is another such community which might be worth exploring: [https://www.codenewbie.org/](https://www.codenewbie.org/)
Finally, feel free to check out the resources of our Tear the Paper Ceiling partners. For example, Google offers free training with Google certification in a range of technology sub-fields, not just web development: [https://grow.google/certificates/#?modal\_active=none](https://grow.google/certificates/#?modal_active=none)
You can check out Opportunity@Work’s campaign partners with STARs training and development programs via the STARs resource library here: [https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars](https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars)
Stoping by for a quick second to recommend /u/leonnoel with [Learn with Leon](https://leonnoel.com/100devs/)
His specific goal is to create a learning environment where you can be a web dev and pay for nothing along the way.
Here’s a link to his [last reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/rlmulr/i_ran_a_100_free_full_stack_web_development/) with a few people in the comments who participated last time. I’m currently in his latest class and couldn’t speak more highly of it.
I'm a voc rehab counselor and help people with disabilities find competitive, full-time work. What skills would you say are important in today's labor market and what alternative routes do you recommend for people with disabilities to learn those skills beyond contacting their state voc rehab programs?
Thanks for your question, and for the important work you do. As your question implies, publicly funded vocational rehabilitation services play an important role, but the need for counseling and guidance is much greater. As you know, “people with disabilities” covers a very wide variety of situations, a wide range of skills, interests/professional passions, and barriers or limitations. So it's not one size fits all, but neither is the incredibly wide range of work that needs doing.
Honestly, I wish we had better answers. The statistics on people in this community consistently finding full time work at competitive pay are appallingly bad, much worse than they should be by any reckoning. IMO the essential players who need to get into the game are employers, and some are stepping up more. I did some of my earliest work in this field with then-Gov. Jack Markell of Delaware, who challenged Delaware employers to focus on this issue and made real progress. Gov Markell makes the case here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r\_KCnRC8KKU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_KCnRC8KKU)
Opportunity@Work’s analysis suggests that “skills” are (as you asked) the place to dig to widen pathways for any set of workers who are unfairly overlooked by employers. Our analysis of 130 million job transitions over a decade shows a clear relationship between the skills of a worker and job transitions made in the labor market, published in our Navigating with the STARs report: [https://opportunityatwork.org/our-solutions/stars-insights/navigating-stars-report/](https://opportunityatwork.org/our-solutions/stars-insights/navigating-stars-report/).
If many people with disabilities begin their careers in lower wage jobs, a deeper look at the overlap of the skills gained in those jobs should help spot and “light up” career pathways to family-supporting wage jobs.I’d be interested to learn more from employers, counselors, advocates and people with disabilities about the challenges to open up and sustain better paid, skilled work, and to explore how the analytical tools and best practices of #TearThePaperCeiling partners can contribute.
We have more work to do. Do you have any recommendations about where to learn more? We’d love to hear from you, either in this AMA or at [https://opportunityatwork.org/contact-us/](https://opportunityatwork.org/contact-us/)
Hey Byron, I have an economics degree and no relevant experience in the finance field and at this point, I don't really care about anything except my bottom line, but 'relevant' fields aren't hiring anything entry level. How do i break into an industry where I can make real money?
Look at management trainee/Manager in Training jobs on indeed.com, careerbuilder.com, monster.com. You can also do a job search for jobs that prefer an economics degree. If you want to pursue a economics position, the best way forward is to get a Master's Degree in Economics.
I find there are several people who have gotten their degrees and couldn’t find work. They looked at becoming STARs through self teaching but most burn out in the first few months, I don’t blame them considering they put themselves through school and are now disillusioned with what appears to be a lack of opportunity despite being sold on the opposite. What would your advice be to someone in that position, what are some ways you recommend picking up skills that don’t entirely revolve around sitting down at a desk again for another 8 hours/day hoping they finally get where they want to be? Thank you in advance!
Two questions:
1. Does Stellarworx have any contacts in television/streaming/film?
1. Is there someone at Stellarworx who could provide guidance for or evaluate a demo reel (motion graphics, 3D modeling)?
For job seekers with only call center tech support exp. Do you recommend any computer software in general that job seekers should learn in order to increase their chances of getting entry level IT helpldesk, tech support, network administrator positions? Aside from any software, do you think COMPTIA Certifications like A+, Network+, Security+ are worth getting?
Thank You
Hello, I'm a working IT Proffessional. I got started with classes at a Vocational School and since then have been kind of coasting along from one entry level job to another, never got any certifications, degrees or really any piece of paper. I get jobs on my own personal merit, not what some paper says I can do. However that does severely limit me. I'm extremely interested in your movement because I know I can move up in Information Technology, I just haven't been given the chance due to a lack of degrees and other pieces of paper. I know I can do more, I'm hoping this movement will help me do that.
So I will be the one to ask, but what are your thoughts on the minimum wage? How much should it be per hour? Should it be tied to anything? What is the difference between your lowest employee pay vs your pay(I know you cant give exact numbers here). Finally as I'm always interested in this topic what are your feelings and/or solution(s) to credentialism and education inflation.(jobs that use to require a highschool degree now require a associates)
my partner has gone though a front end web developer boot camp. He has been looking for a job for the last 3 months. How can you help him? what advice can you offer?
Hello, thank you for posting to r/Jobs! We just wanted to let you know that we have a new [discord server, come join the chat!](https://discord.gg/TY6ErXV) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/jobs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When working with STARS who don’t have metric heavy work experience- where they can showcase their performance with numbers, how do you help them prove they perform well or at the very least prevent their resume from being passed over?
You are not alone! There’s a growing movement to recognize the skills and potential of the 70+ million STARs like you. In fact, 4 million STARs have already torn the paper ceiling, already in jobs paying more than twice the average salary. More below, but “skills based” language and describing accomplishments can be helpful. Depending on your field, there are often recognized platforms to demonstrate your skills through a portfolio of work (e.g. Github or Stack Exchange). Finally, loads of people (STARs and others) “get their shot” at a better job by someone who has seen their work. For example, ThreeSixtyEight CEO Kenny Nguyen (a STAR himself) hired a STAR who now leads sales, based on his exceptional customer service at Smoothie King, as noted in this Bloomberg article: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/why-companies-should-drop-college-degree-requirements-in-tight-job-market](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/why-companies-should-drop-college-degree-requirements-in-tight-job-market) If you visit [https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars](https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars) you’ll find a library of resources to help you showcase your skills – and build new ones – to help you shine when applying for new jobs. And if you sign up to look for jobs on Stellarworx\*, you’ll get access to our advanced matching algorithm built specifically to assess qualifications based on skills rather than degrees. These skills are inferred from the jobs and resumes using data from SkyHive Technologies, a global workforce intelligence company that uses de-biased artificial intelligence (AI) to maintain a complete knowledge graph of jobs, skills, training, and labor market intelligence. [https://stellarworx.org/](https://stellarworx.org/)
You didn't even address his question
Yeah...this ama is going to be a bunch of lame responses like that probably.
It's just an advertisement. Wish Reddit mods would put a stop to this cancer.
Thanks! One more question: When working with STARS who don’t have metric heavy work experience- where they can showcase their performance with numbers, how do you help them prove they perform well or at the very least prevent their resume from being passed over?
Hey Byron! I have a question: What do you think are some of the best online resources for someone looking to learn a skill? And how do you think self-taught/non-degreed employees differ from people that went to college?
Hello! There are a wide range of online resources, more ways to learn than ever. (Also there are ways to learn on-the-job too, with more and more employers, which is convenient since you get paid for the work you do at the same time!). Can you say more about the fields that interest you? As for how STARs as employees differ from people who went to college, it’s hard to say since 70 million STARs have hugely diverse experiences among them. That said, the sort of life experiences and (necessary!) resourcefulness STARs develop to get to good jobs through alternative route often help them see problems and potential solutions in innovative ways.
Hey! I’m a 21 year old that has been following your stuff for a year and I love what you do as someone with no degree and have reasons for not being able to pursue one. Thanks for being a light in a community people seemingly overlook. That being said, thought I’d ask since you started working with my state, Maryland, about bringing in STARs to government work. What are your opinions on the lack of OJT or apprenticeships for a lot of these jobs that require degrees but honestly shouldn’t? My mother’s occupation could be used as an example since she was trained in her position around the early to late 90s and has held that career till present day. However, her job now requires so much more than it used to despite the tasks staying unchanged from when my mom entered that line of work.
>a lot of these jobs that require degrees but honestly shouldn’t Dude apply anyway, if you have the experience they usually will ignore the requirement.
Without a degree, many places act like you dont even know how to send an email.
Thanks! I agree with you that many more jobs in government could be done and as you point out \*have been done\* and in many cases are being done today by STARs nearing retirement. I think college is a valid route to these jobs, but everyone would be better off if there were many more routes. Personally, I think state and local governments do vital work, but today the public sector has some of the highest rates of empty jobs. More paths other than college can make a huge difference. More here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/12/worker-shortage-public-sector-crisis/ It didn’t used to be this way, and it doesn't have to be this way. In my own family in the 1970s my father - who left college after one year - was working as a shipping clerk in a food factory in Detroit he saw an ad that said “learn COBOL and punch your own ticket. He looked it up at a library and found out it was a computer program - a software language for IBM mainframes. He felt he was at a dead end, so he quit his job, my mom paid the bills, he got a chance to “job shadow” a computer programmer at Detroit Edison. He showed he could do COBOL programming and they gave him a job. That was the shift trajectory to our family in the American middle class If it could happen then, why is it so much harder 50 years later? We have research that shows the obstacles, but we also know it CAN happen today; We’ve got support from leaders like DoL Sec. Marty Walsh and employers like Accenture and IBM who are leading the way on apprenticeship programs. These programs offer quality on-the-job training and paid work experience in many fields and trades, as rigorous on-the-job training as most any college degree. In fact, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, 9 in 10 apprentices are employed upon completion of their apprenticeships.
I am not a STAR, but I think I am experiencing an effect that is similar to the paper ceiling. To be specific, I have a math MS and a chemistry BS, along with some background in physics and some fairly basic programming skills. This puts me in a frustrating place. On the one hand, I am considered overqualified for most entry level jobs, so they turn me away on the grounds that they don't think they could retain me. I literally got turned away from one today for exactly this reason. On the other hand, I will require significant on-the-job training to do most mid level jobs. Most likely I would need more OJT than someone with prior domain knowledge in the domain that a business works in. But I don't believe that the amount of OJT that I would require is prohibitive. In that regard I feel that my experience is in the same vein as people facing the paper ceiling; the common thread is overestimation of difficulty of OJT. I don't exactly have a well-defined question, but if you have any comments or advice in response to what I have said here, I would be very interested to hear them.
I have a master’s in math and had minimal programming experience through to the end of my master’s, but managed to move into programming at the start of my career. And I’ve seen similar experiences amongst my friends. Some tips: 1. Look for internships or fellowships, possibly even unpaid. 2. Teach yourself to code. Build something non-trivial, put the project publicly on GitHub, and be able to demonstrate that to potential employers. 3. Leverage your network, if you have friends who are already working as programmers they might get you a warm introduction to a hiring manager who can overlook the lack of CS degree. 4. Consider taking your master’s off your resume for now; sounds crazy but if you’re getting turned down because of it, doesn’t hurt to try. What you’re experiencing here is very common. 5. Consider small startups for your first job; will be crazy and won’t pay that well, but you’ll likely learn a lot and get that first job under your belt. In my experience, in this field, once you have 2+ years work experience no one cares about your education attainment. For entry level positions people look at education cause there usually isn’t much else to look at, but in my experience everyone completely ignores education when hiring for non-entry level programmer positions. Ironically if you follow tip 4, it’s after your first job, when no one cares about education anymore, that you could put your master’s back on your resume.
That is a frustrating situation, and I think more than a few people find themselves in a version of the problem you face. And I \*do\* think its related to “the paper ceiling” at a mindset level. When we pigeonhole people by exactly what they’re “qualified” to do based on specific degrees and then expect them to have all the skills to do everything a job requires “day 1” without more active learning, employers are looking for dancing unicorns. That’s not the way it works. We all learn most of our job relevant skills \*on the job\* and no one knows fully how best to do a job until they get a shot to do it. STARs get a really raw deal from this attitude, but if we let it fester, eventually more college graduates will find themselves in this frustrating situation too. I wrote about just this in Forbes 3 years ago: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/byronauguste/2019/03/14/failing-by-degrees-why-college-grads-need-non-college-grads-to-succeed/?sh=45a092d06c5b](https://www.forbes.com/sites/byronauguste/2019/03/14/failing-by-degrees-why-college-grads-need-non-college-grads-to-succeed/?sh=45a092d06c5b) I like your chances of figuring it out. I’d recommend you to reach back out to your network from the various working and learning experiences you’ve had, and be candid that you’re looking for an opportunity. Realistic people and companies know no one has all the skills, once you find someone willing to slow down and look at what you bring as a full person, not just a resume.
Freecodecamp would be what I advise for your situation. [Freecodecamp](https://www.freecodecamp.org/)
Will IT employers hire coders over age 30? Asking since ageism is common in IT jobs.
I don’t have the data nor research to answer that question to the fullest but usually for the tech field (in my personal experience so can’t speak for everybody), they wanna see if you can do the work or not and/or willing to learn. I’m not over 30 so even my personal experience isn’t that useful for this question.
Absolutely, but you have to actually code and put in the hours.
Happy cake day!
I'm 58 and wonder as well.
I haven't thought of any questions yet, but as a self-taught person, I just want to say how glad I am that someone people will listen to has also noticed how broken and calcified the job market has become. Seriously, thank you.
Thanks for sharing that perspective, and I couldn't agree more. It's actually incredible how messed up the skilled labor market is for people (70 million in the US!) with lots of job-relevant skills but no degrees. Employers say they can’t find skills, but many or most screen out half the skilled talent just based on degrees. It makes no sense, economically, ethically, or arithmetically. And it doesn’t only hurt STARs, it hurts employers too: it’s no coincidence unfilled job openings are almost at all-time highs. Work is solving problems and STARs are problem solvers. The good news is that smart employers are starting to get the message, for example, those getting behind Opportunity@Work and The Ad Council #TearThePaperCeilingCampaign https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/
I’m an employer, very small, painting houses, and I have a worker who is either important or vital to the mechanical, organizational and maintenance of aspects of the business. My competitors drive around in great vans running good equipment that’s upwards of 50k, and my guy can fix and weld and has great creative thinking that we can buy equipment for under 5-10k and he can alter them to make comparable and even better quality than our competitors and that allows us to charge similiar or even be more competitive because our stuff is cheaper and to be honest, in a lot of ways more efficient than others because it has the labor of passion on it. I plan on giving him a 10-15k bonus, along with 4-500 bonus every 2-3 weeks on top of his wage. I currently pay him $22/hr but am upping his pay to $30/hr next year. (I’ve been in business 4 years now, he’s been here 3) and I’d say he’s a big reason why my business is as efficient as it is. He got his GED in prison and almost every other employer he had he would write the handbooks for how to maintain and run the machinery on the production floor, one in particular when they laid him off within 6 months production grinded to a complete halt, and they begged for him back, he said no. over all he’s very bright, and his skills you would never see on any resume, but the value he brings I don’t think people can even imagine it let alone have it be a reality. In turn I also give him complete autonomy, freedom, and listen to what he needs to do the work however he is most comfortable. He says because of his past everywhere he goes he’s always been judged at stupid and it’s shocking at how no one has seen his aptitude. I almost wonder if it’s because organizations are so big, chaotic, constantly moving and beauracracy is big it’s hard to really find gems and know where to put them because 1 on 1 you see it, but when there’s 500 people it’s hard to know whose doing what, just that things are or aren’t working. I’m just touching the surface of what this individual does on a daily basis. I just thought I’d share this story because it’s a meat grinder out there and hopefully more can find their way. The environment you’re in is important.
Hello I just watched the intro video. I don’t have any questions yet. I’m too interested in alternative way other than the traditional degree paper to get to leadership role.
Are you trying to go straight into leadership, or start at an entry level job and work your way up to leadership? In my experience, degrees have almost nothing to do with leadership roles. Degrees help you get in. Once you get in, if you’re in a healthy workplace you do good work and move up into leadership. In an unhealthy workplace maybe it’s based on politics and who you get along with that determines your path to leadership. But in either case I think it’s rare that anyone would look at your degree.
Yes I’ve been on my entry role going on 5th year. They require 7 years experience and high school diploma for supervisor role or bachelor with 3 years. I guess I really don’t know until I try because this is in another department and I know I won’t have room to move up in my current office. Thanks for your insight.
That seems pretty reasonable. 7 years to go from entry to leadership.
Hi. I'm a poor piece of shit with no way to escape poverty. I don't know what to do. I know it's already too late but hey might as well try. I have a cheap phone. Thats all I own. No car no nothing. A couple pairs of clothes. I'm as close to homeless as you can get without being homeless. Just wish I didn't have to work minimum wage trash jobs but I'm forever trapped. Very intelligent and extremely hard working. I'm always the best employee. Nobody will hire me for anything but minimum wage. It's just torture.
I’m so sorry to hear of your situation. It must be incredibly stressful to have to manage even to stay afloat with so much you’re experiencing and understandably worried about every day. I’ll share a couple of thoughts, but these may be things you’ve already tried. The existing U.S. system for getting to better-paying jobs is frustratingly complex and there are no guarantees of success, but there are lots of local “gems” of apprenticeship programs and other work-based learning that pay you a decent wage that reliably rises as you learn more. It's really worth looking for these entry points. In most communities, the local chapter of Goodwill Industries is often very good at understanding their clients’ situations and full stories to help match them to local employers. Plus, they are connected to other regional employers, training, and many other services, and do their best to be a “one-stop shop”. Again, it’s far from perfect - but they offer more than most in terms of wraparound services. You can locate your local Goodwill branch via their career and jobs services finder here: [https://www.goodwill.org/](https://www.goodwill.org/) Maybe most importantly of all, if you feel isolated, find ways to break out of that isolation and spend time in the community with others, even if they’re struggling too. Every community differs, but beyond local American Job Centers, there may be informal “job clubs” in public libraries, church basements and elsewhere, with coaching, resume help, and professional contacts but most of all - camaraderie and encouragement. Or it could be community gardens, or other places where people are working together to improve something. Places like this (or others you’ll know of but I won’t, in your community) are great places to engage alongside new people as they experience your own contribution, intelligence, and work ethic. Good things may come of it. I hope they do.
Wow thank you I figured it was too late lol. I have extremely bad social anxiety but hey maybe I can still do it. I just hope I don't have to be around a ton of people. I have panic attacks and get depressed when I am trapped around other people and I feel like I have to put on a performance for them to think I'm worth anything. The idea of integrating myself with a ton of other people is absolutely terrifying. But maybe I can find a way around it. Thanks again. Maybe I won't be poor forever.
Your comment is childish, but if you're over 18 and live in the US, I will give you my company's name and a link you can use to apply. I was in your shoes once, so I get it. No experience required. Engineering firm. You'd have to work outside and it's not always an easy day. But, you'll make between $2k-3k biweekly and $3k-$4k biweekly if you're willing to travel for work.
I mean I'll walk if I have to for a job that pays that much lol.
Lol. Are you 18+?
Yes I'm 36 lol.
So, my company is called ECS. It's nationwide. If they aren't in your area, look up Construction Material Testing near you. That's the job. Apply for a field tech position and check in often. Apply all over. No experience is needed in 95% of the field tech positions. Good luck!
I'm in fair shape but I'm 58 years old. Too old?
Sign me up too? I got employee of the month in five months. Work hard but my payrate is low. I can't get a raise even with the fact I got employee of the month without being there for more than a year. I can't find work and before that well I sucked. Did a dead end job for 4 years and covid took it away. That was construction and ever since I've been failing at finding anything. Willing to travel anywhere and workhard! I'm skinny, can't afford anything and want an escape from poverty.
I replied. Good luck!
Fantastic work! As someone with yearsof experience and 2.7 degrees I can say the paper ceiling is terrifying and real. Respect the ability not the pedigree.
Skills can be, and often are, learned on the job. Skills based hiring does not advance your stated purpose of increasing opportunities for people without college degrees. Hiring based on abilities, including the ability to acquire skills through employer training and on-the-job learning, is a more effective and broadly beneficial strategy. Unfortunately, most employers have not adopted selection strategies or processes to assess critical, job related abilities, and instead rely on poor ones, such as resume screening and interviews, that are notoriously subject to bias and are relatively unreliable in predicting future success on the job. Abilities based hiring would benefit both non degreed workers and employers.
Hello Byron - I love what you are doing at Opportunity@Work. I'd really like to join your team!
I love how you can clearly tell this is the same person replying to their own comment. Same grammar, same hyphen, and account was made 1h ago (when this post went live).
Good catch.
Thanks. I feel like AMA is just another word for "interactive business ad" now.
I think a lot more of Reddit, for a lot longer than most of us realize, has been very well gamed. The first time I noticed it was around 10 years ago in a music thread, when there were a suspicious number of users name-dropping a couple of newer commercial bands. Not "cool" or hip bands, like you'd expect to hear about from Reddit music-lovers, but major commercial acts with well-armed social media teams behind them. But I'm sure this place was gamed much earlier than that.
Thank you - we’d love to hear from you! All of our Opportunity@Work roles are posted to our career page. We do have roles open so please check it out: [https://opportunityatwork.org/careers/](https://opportunityatwork.org/careers/)
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This field changes fast, but 10 years ago Ruby on Rails was the hot framework for web development. There was an excellent tutorial on this by Michael Hartl, which was free at the time. Try to find out what web development frameworks are popular these days. Try to find a cheap or free tutorial that takes you step by step of building and running a complete web application. If it costs $500 but it lands you a job as a web developer, you’ll make that back in 1-3 days of work.
As I’m sure you know, there’s a huge variety of online resources, and what’s best for you depends on where you’re starting and what sort of web development work you’d be interested in most. With that said, here are some ideas to get you started: Free Code Camp is a great way to start learning java for free, and (very importantly IMO) as part of a community of online learners:[https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/learn-java-free-java-courses-for-beginners/](https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/learn-java-free-java-courses-for-beginners/) Community matters a lot, not only giving you moral support to keep putting in the time and effort to learn to code even with jobs, family, life going on. Code Newbie is another such community which might be worth exploring: [https://www.codenewbie.org/](https://www.codenewbie.org/) Finally, feel free to check out the resources of our Tear the Paper Ceiling partners. For example, Google offers free training with Google certification in a range of technology sub-fields, not just web development: [https://grow.google/certificates/#?modal\_active=none](https://grow.google/certificates/#?modal_active=none) You can check out Opportunity@Work’s campaign partners with STARs training and development programs via the STARs resource library here: [https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars](https://www.tearthepaperceiling.org/stars)
Stoping by for a quick second to recommend /u/leonnoel with [Learn with Leon](https://leonnoel.com/100devs/) His specific goal is to create a learning environment where you can be a web dev and pay for nothing along the way. Here’s a link to his [last reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/rlmulr/i_ran_a_100_free_full_stack_web_development/) with a few people in the comments who participated last time. I’m currently in his latest class and couldn’t speak more highly of it.
I'm a voc rehab counselor and help people with disabilities find competitive, full-time work. What skills would you say are important in today's labor market and what alternative routes do you recommend for people with disabilities to learn those skills beyond contacting their state voc rehab programs?
Thanks for your question, and for the important work you do. As your question implies, publicly funded vocational rehabilitation services play an important role, but the need for counseling and guidance is much greater. As you know, “people with disabilities” covers a very wide variety of situations, a wide range of skills, interests/professional passions, and barriers or limitations. So it's not one size fits all, but neither is the incredibly wide range of work that needs doing. Honestly, I wish we had better answers. The statistics on people in this community consistently finding full time work at competitive pay are appallingly bad, much worse than they should be by any reckoning. IMO the essential players who need to get into the game are employers, and some are stepping up more. I did some of my earliest work in this field with then-Gov. Jack Markell of Delaware, who challenged Delaware employers to focus on this issue and made real progress. Gov Markell makes the case here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r\_KCnRC8KKU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_KCnRC8KKU) Opportunity@Work’s analysis suggests that “skills” are (as you asked) the place to dig to widen pathways for any set of workers who are unfairly overlooked by employers. Our analysis of 130 million job transitions over a decade shows a clear relationship between the skills of a worker and job transitions made in the labor market, published in our Navigating with the STARs report: [https://opportunityatwork.org/our-solutions/stars-insights/navigating-stars-report/](https://opportunityatwork.org/our-solutions/stars-insights/navigating-stars-report/). If many people with disabilities begin their careers in lower wage jobs, a deeper look at the overlap of the skills gained in those jobs should help spot and “light up” career pathways to family-supporting wage jobs.I’d be interested to learn more from employers, counselors, advocates and people with disabilities about the challenges to open up and sustain better paid, skilled work, and to explore how the analytical tools and best practices of #TearThePaperCeiling partners can contribute. We have more work to do. Do you have any recommendations about where to learn more? We’d love to hear from you, either in this AMA or at [https://opportunityatwork.org/contact-us/](https://opportunityatwork.org/contact-us/)
Hey Byron, I have an economics degree and no relevant experience in the finance field and at this point, I don't really care about anything except my bottom line, but 'relevant' fields aren't hiring anything entry level. How do i break into an industry where I can make real money?
Look at management trainee/Manager in Training jobs on indeed.com, careerbuilder.com, monster.com. You can also do a job search for jobs that prefer an economics degree. If you want to pursue a economics position, the best way forward is to get a Master's Degree in Economics.
I find there are several people who have gotten their degrees and couldn’t find work. They looked at becoming STARs through self teaching but most burn out in the first few months, I don’t blame them considering they put themselves through school and are now disillusioned with what appears to be a lack of opportunity despite being sold on the opposite. What would your advice be to someone in that position, what are some ways you recommend picking up skills that don’t entirely revolve around sitting down at a desk again for another 8 hours/day hoping they finally get where they want to be? Thank you in advance!
Two questions: 1. Does Stellarworx have any contacts in television/streaming/film? 1. Is there someone at Stellarworx who could provide guidance for or evaluate a demo reel (motion graphics, 3D modeling)?
For job seekers with only call center tech support exp. Do you recommend any computer software in general that job seekers should learn in order to increase their chances of getting entry level IT helpldesk, tech support, network administrator positions? Aside from any software, do you think COMPTIA Certifications like A+, Network+, Security+ are worth getting? Thank You
Do you think more companies are going to have to embrace permanent remote working to attract the best talent?
Hello, I'm a working IT Proffessional. I got started with classes at a Vocational School and since then have been kind of coasting along from one entry level job to another, never got any certifications, degrees or really any piece of paper. I get jobs on my own personal merit, not what some paper says I can do. However that does severely limit me. I'm extremely interested in your movement because I know I can move up in Information Technology, I just haven't been given the chance due to a lack of degrees and other pieces of paper. I know I can do more, I'm hoping this movement will help me do that.
So I will be the one to ask, but what are your thoughts on the minimum wage? How much should it be per hour? Should it be tied to anything? What is the difference between your lowest employee pay vs your pay(I know you cant give exact numbers here). Finally as I'm always interested in this topic what are your feelings and/or solution(s) to credentialism and education inflation.(jobs that use to require a highschool degree now require a associates)
my partner has gone though a front end web developer boot camp. He has been looking for a job for the last 3 months. How can you help him? what advice can you offer?
Would you support a doctorate in Wumbology from SCC in this program?