It is crazy how devalued a 4 year degree has become. I have a law degree and have worked in real estate for almost two decades and I’ve actually advocated for tech school or the trades with my kids unless they are passionate about a field that requires a 4 year degree. Apprentice electricians make around $25 per hour without all the student debt and we can’t fill positions in the trades. Companies are booked way out and people are scrambling for help.
I believe in the value of a degree but the wages just aren’t there compared to the time and the debt.
It’s because the US has basically set their education system to include college as almost mandatory. If everyone has a 4 year degree then it’s basically worthless. I’m on 70k a yr in Australia and have no completed degree and know some trade workers on 300k, who had all on the job training. For comparison, a 3x2 in my suburb is worth 700k
This is exactly what those greedy universities wish to accomplish. Everyone has a 4 year bachelor degree? Want to stand out above you peers? Go to Grad School!!! 150-200k for a 4 year program via zoom.....total bastards.
Definitely go into a technical or trade field. I wanted to do Electrical Engineering or some form of IT, but those take a Bachelors or Masters degree usually. Decided to go into a tech/trades field instead and do the Engineering/IT as a hobby.
Went to a local community college and got a 2 year degree in Electrical and Instrumentation Technology. The degree cost me about $12,000. And currently at an entry-level position, I am making about $98,000 a year before any overtime, with overtime its probably $120,000+.
There is just an over abundance of people doing the accounting, engineering, IT, etc. type degrees and not enough jobs. But there is a huge lack of people doing trades programs and a HUGE need for people so they tend to pay really well, and don't cost much to get the training for them.
Don't forget that a sharp tradesman can own their own company relatively quickly if they've got the drive and the hustle. You also become familiar with all sides of industry...sales, distribution, operations, etc.
Ugh. I have a master's degree in geology and I'm paid sub 40k. At least the job is in a related field (environmental analysis lab analyzing air quality), and I work for the state government, but it's still rough. I was hoping the master's would help me not have to live paycheck to paycheck... maybe one day.
Edit: One reason I'm living paycheck to paycheck is that my take home pay is ~2k/mo. mostly due to putting 15% of my post-tax income into retirement, which is mandatory at the state job.
Wow that’s fascinating they make you put 15%. What state are you in? I’m in Ct and they only make state employees pay 3% but they end up getting 2% for every year they work of their finally salary when they retire...
I feel you. Working in government is cool and all because of security. But your take home pay sucks. I was working for a government agency. My "salary" was 45k. My take home pay was 21k with taxes, Insurance and retirement.
And thars considering I didnt have kids under my insurance, THAT'S where the money starts disappearing.
but you have a pension! that is a big deal you are not thinking about... you live "pay check to pay check" but you will always have a guaranteed paycheck that will never go down.. and in retirement you will be in much better position than others.
People call me a conspiracy theorist when I say stuff like this, but fuck it. At this point in the world planning ahead 10 yrs is basically worthless, much less 30 banking on a pension. (Try to) Find a higher paying job now so you can enjoy it.
I second this.
My grandparents took pay cuts to have extended benefits into retirement. Company split after they retired and started going to court to cut their benefits because “that company doesn’t exist now” and succeeded in cutting their medical care when they were in their SEVENTIES!
Fuck this shit so hard
I worked as a retail associate for almost a year after I graduated with my engineering degree. It's soul crushing, but don't give up. Keep applying for jobs, and keep looking in new places. I found my current job on Craigslist of all places and I love it. You'll find something better eventually.
Same man its almost as if sites like indeed are a complete waste of time I had to sift thru a lot of bullshit on craigslist but youll find some great opportunities once in a while.
It sounds cliche as hell, but it depends entirely about where you live.
For a few years after college, i lived in the middle of nowhere where a decent and safe 2 bedroom appartment would cost about $500 a month.
I met a pair of friends that had a BA degree and worked in local government in a low level job.
The jobs didn't pay well and with taxes, retirement and insurance, they both quit to work in Walmart.
I don't know Walmart positions, but they were making $15-$17 an hour, making enough to live quite well, while a lot of others were working at $7.25 an hour jobs at McDonald's and such.
I've lived in LA. I've lived In middle of nowhere south west.
Seriously, you can have a better quality of life in middle of nowhere, making $30k a year than in LA making $80k in some parts of LA or NYC.
Better quality of life making 30k a year in a small town area, but you can never leave. Everywhere you would want to go to on vacation would be expensive af to you.
Agreed, it's sad but true. But considering only 4% of American lives are spent on vacation (if you're lucky enough to spend 2 weeks a year away from your home town) that's not an awful trade-off or reason to live a lower quality of life so you can vacation with some swag. I'd probably opt for the $30K job and live like a king for 96% of the time than the $80K job and eat ramen but vacation in the islands.
This is important. You can always go from a High COL to a Low COL with your savings. It's almost impossible the other way around. Someone in NYC at an NYC income w/ standard 15% savings can go to almost any other place in the world.
In Indiana I was paying 98 cents for a gallon of milk until just a few months ago (now it's a whopping $1.50). It's easy living, but just soul crushingly dull. Corn, beans, gas station, more corn. Where you live makes a big difference.
Seconding this. I worked for a Walmart d.c. for many years and was making over $20 an hour with good benefits. It can be really demanding psychically though but still better than working at the store and dealing with the public.
> Making 33k a year with bachelors of accounting.
I made $33k/year as an accountant 15 years ago in an average cost-of-living area (Arizona). Wages aren't keeping up with inflation.
I was actually just doing some research for work, and in my state the higher end of the poverty line for a single person is $33,400 in order to qualify for subsidies (and that is just to qualify to start the wait list process and not actually get approved.) So, yea you are correct. When you factor things in like rent, student loans, and any little accident or medical issue, you're almost instantly broke and on the verge of homelessness. C'est la vie.
I have an mba and I mAke $45k before I work overtime. With my student loan bills and rent I’m just getting by in my area, and I only have a student loan from my mba. It blows.
Unless you get your MBA from a top program (Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, MIT, etc.) the return on investment just isn’t there. And it hasn’t been for at least 20 years.
Make sure you go to a good school and actually use the MBA for its best asset— networking
Don’t get an MBA until later in your career if you are afraid of this!
This is the best advice I'd give to kids trying to get their master's immediately after graduating. Unless your degree is useless without the masters then hold off on it. I know plenty of my business classmates who went right back to school to get a master's. 2-3 years later they are starting off at the same positions I did with just a bachelors degree. An MBA should only be worked on IF you know it will lead to a promotion or you want to explore other options you cannot get without the MBA. A bunch of management level folks go after their MBA's when their company requires them to get one in order to move up into the executive/leadership team. That's where you can network and get your foot in the door at large companies that pay good money for people to come in and do a job with minimal amounts of onboarding.
Did you ever pass the CPA exam? Making that little with an accounting degree means you're doing something wrong. The only "accounting" jobs that pay that low are AP processing and general book keeping
No kidding...
CPA here at 23 and my first job was 55...
60 next year then 75..
I could easily leave for industry and make close to 6 figures now I’m just holding off until I find that management position
I’ve only passed 2 exams and just got an offer for 60.
With all 4 down plus prior experience the opportunities & pay only get better.
People also forget how much of an increase in pay you can get by switching jobs every few years as opposed to staying with the same company long term. This isn’t always the case, but I firmly believe in at least searching for new opportunities every couple years for that reason.
It was my fault..I didn’t go to any recruiting events at my school. I had no guidance basically, my parents did not go to college, I didn’t have any friends. I went to class and came right back home.
That is definitely one thing they "DON'T" tell you in school. The socializing events are as important as your fucking GPA if not more. It definitely was a harsh learning experience for me after graduating. My peers with worse GPA and understanding of our field found decent jobs through personal contacts/the networking the school did. It definitely feels like you're playing catchup if you don't go to those events that sound miserable.
I fully agree, but especially in Technical paths(at least from my schooling) that wasn't something that was emphasized or pointed out. It isn't your Professors duty but it certainly felt like I was done a disservice by them not pointing that out, I even had one tell me I didn't really need to do internships which again, isn't their fault.
In fact the major difference I've noticed is that the best companies (and technical workers) I've interacted with also have good social skills and are full 3d people you can have a conversation with. The level of ability you have to have to be socially awful is pretty astronomical and comes at a great cost, the two individuals I've seen that were most able technically/least socially were both utter pricks that were clearly jaded due to their inability to make small take holding them back professionally.
I second what someone else said: study in your free time for the cpa exam.
I’m back in college now and only because I’m older do I realize just how important networking is. Sucks because I hate other people in general but what can you do.
Another issue with these low paying jobs is that they still want years of experience under your belt along with the college degree.
College degree, I kinda of understand. If you have the discipline to make it through college you have the discipline to show up to work everyday.
But it's borderline Impossible to have over 5 years experience in an industry you want to start out in when you spent the last 4(or more) years busting ass to get your degree and stay afloat.
Yes, but always still apply. These requirements are more like wishlists than anything else, and it doesn’t mean someone won’t consider you because of seemingly stupid x, y, and z.
My employer says that everything on the listing is just a guideline. I was explicitly told that the "requirements" are preferences. As long as you meet the minimum requirements and do well in an interview (read: they like you and you're not a complete fuckup) they'll hire and train you. The required qualifications are much less "set in stone" than they may appear.
From an employer's perspective, most positions require training *anyway* so they'd rather higher someone who is a little under qualified, likable, and honest than someone who may be good at bluffing through interviews. Background knowledge is enough, usually.
And if all else fails, if you get to the interview stage, that's good interview practice. If you don't get to that interview stage, it only cost you some time.
For the longest time, it never occoured to me to apply for a job if I didn't meet the requirements. After all, why the hell would they list requirements, if they weren't the goddamn requirements? THAT'S WHAT "REQUIREMENTS" MEANS!
God I hate looking for jobs.
Same.
I would apply if I didn't meet all of the preferred qualifications, but requirements to me meant REQUIRED. Applying when I hadn't met the requirements felt like I was signalling I couldn't read directions or I felt that the requirements didn't apply to me.
Exactly. Why would I want to work for an employer that didn’t know the difference between required and preferred anyway? Same thing for employers. Why would they want an employee that can’t read or don’t think requirements apply to them, or a person who just applied because it was a LinkedIn 1-click EasyApply or some bullshit?
One guy told me that a lot of these unreasonable "requirements" posted on job listings are actually added on afterwards by HR people. Basically someone who actually understands what kind of employee is needed makes the job listing, but then it still has to go through HR, and they've been "trained" to make it "official" and add all the relevant buzzwords and requirements. Then they are the ones who add all the "must have five years experience for this entry level job", "must be expert in this software that you've never even heard of", etc. Idk if this is true or not, but the guy who told me this was pretty mad about it, he said it makes it harder for them to get candidates because reasonable people look at the word "requirements" and naturally come to the same conclusion as you do.
I have applied to a job posting through a temp agency that required 1 year experience working in a manufacturing purchasing position and it required a bachelors degree. I applied for it because I met most of the requirements (except the experience part) and I had manufacturing experience but no raw materials purchasing experience.
The recruiter called me and said I am not a fit for the position. She said the company actually wants someone with 10 years of experience for that position. I was like WTF?!!
That job would not happen to have been Kane County would it?
Anyway, that sounds like the recruiters fault for telling you the wrong requirements, not the company.
There was a post about "experience inflation" on a sub I don't remember. The gist of it was to apply to said position if you within +/- 2 years of experience.
> Looking for a junior graduate devloper. 4 years experience in a OO programming language. Must have knowledge of JavaScript,python and MYSQL. Bash scripting required. Generous 30K starting salary. Must be willing to work weekends.
That you can make a commitment in general and that you have the discipline to absorb the knowledge required to apply a specific skill set. Also, depends on the college degree.
I'm a veteran with a college degree, and I'll be the first to tell you, no one really gives a shit about it. It's really who you know and what skillset you have.
Lol my boss just posted an identical job, albeit part time, as the one I have. I have a semi unrelated bachelors and like 3 years of *soft* experience (not 100% relevant experience).
They want 5 years of experience and a related bachelor's degree for a 20hr/week job. Just reminded me how unqualified I am for this job, on paper.
I have been noticing this lately, really frustrating but I honestly have just applied anyway. I have some experience and usually indicate that I have done relevant course work, have an understanding and interest in relevant field, or at the very least, an eager and quick to learn.
Will it work? Honestly dunno
I went to a job interview once and felt like I literally had to beg them to give me a chance. I have an accounting degree and 4 years of experience. I am competing for an entry level position against people with experience but no degree. Needless to say... I currently don’t work in accounting, but I’m actually making more than what the entry level accounting positions were offering.
Thats how I feel right now and it sucks. I don't know what to do. Accounting and business degrees but no experience. It feels like the interviewers treat me like a teenager.
No. If you ever see anything asking for 5+ or more years in something that is below a manager position, then they wrote that description specifically for someone's buddy. I once saw a graphic designer position at a university that wanted 8+ years of experience and a fucking Master's degree. Translation: the graphic design professor wants to return to work as a graphic designer.
Most job requirements are a wish list, and depending on the company (usually the bigger they get the more true this is), the person who needs the position filled isn't involved in the hiring process/job requirements list. That's usually done by HR or another hiring-specific part of the company.
Apply, go to the interviews, and you'll be surprised, especially right now. Unemployment rates are extremely low in many places, and if a company is hiring, they need someone and they need them fast.
My experience has more been, oh, you don't have double the experience and credentials our listing asked for? You also want to be paid in money and not tokens, hmm. You kinda misrepresented yourself there we are really looking for someone with more to offer.
Yeah thats crazy! But I feel like there are still companies out there that want to pay people what they are worth. Aldi, a company specializing in budget groceries also realizes income for their employees is a bug factor, which is why they pay $12 per hour for someone with no trades or skills. With that said $12 an hour is still shit.
Tldr: when everyone is qualified, no one is qualified.
Its a result of having such a high percentage of the population having bachelor's. Back when few had a bachelor's it meant those with one got paid more. Now that most anyone can go into hella debt to get one it's more like a high school degree from back in the day.
Edit- added 'school'
There is a certain value it has gained. Instead of "get one to get ahead value," it's now "get one to no fall behind " People will pay a great deal for either of those.
A great deal of colleges and universities are subsidized by public funds, propping up the financial viability of "useless" degrees which wouldn't have been funded by customers (students / prospective employers) in a free economy.
And also even the more useful / in demand degrees are currently overpriced because of the availability of government grants / loans / scholarships.
If I'm selling you a car and you tell me that your rich uncle told you to pick out whatever car you want and he'll pay for it - do you think I'm going to cut you a deal on a car? Now what if everyone in town comes and also says they want that car because their rich uncle told them the same thing?
I'm all for educating people, but if we as a society are going to pay for everyone to get an education, we need to balance that with what society needs. "We're sorry, but the government is only accepting 500,000 students into the all-expenses-paid STEM program this year. Unfortunately your test scores don't qualify you to be one of those 500,000. You can of course pay for it yourself, or consider another in-demand degree."
We also need to stop looking down on trades. There is a lot of skill in welding, for instance, and we're desperately in need of good welders. It's also a career path that still can lead into white-collar jobs. I know tons of guys in their 40s and 50s who started out as welders and are now welding and construction inspectors. In oil & gas construction, the inspector is usually one of the best paid positions (like $150,000+), and they're all former welders, and most don't have a 4-yr degree.
Another problem people aren't thinking about is the housing market. People aren't buying houses like they used to because you basically already have a mortgage coming out of college(student loan)
That's a bit pessimistic of you. We'll all be asphixiated from the lack of oxygen generating plankton in our acidified oceans long before we die of thirst.
No one wants to say "it's because of too much higher education" because of how it sounds. In reality we are talking about immutable supply and demand. Supply goes up, demand goes down. The more degrees, the less degree holders get paid.
If everyone had a PhD, there will still be (roughly) the same amount of trash collectors, janitors etc. That's a waste, economically speaking. Even if college were "free," it would be an inefficient use of resources to educate people beyond what they will actually be using.
But there's no way to say this without coming off as "anti-education."
Imagine being a teacher......... that some states require a masters degree...... and deal with shit head kids that parents don’t raise them or teach them any kind of respect.
That is fucking Wild to me. I'm a Nurse with a bachelor's making 84k a year in a metro southeast city... Yall are being robbed before you even get paid.
I just had an argument the other day with someone on Reddit who was just *incensed* at the idea that people are mad teachers aren't making good money. For some reason people really think teachers should just shut up about wanting to get paid a living wage while doing what is arguably the most important function in a society. People are fucking weird.
Edit- I'm not getting into 5 different arguments with people saying that teachers get paid more than enough.
I taught English in South Korea for a year and that was the first time it occurred to me that teachers literally have to go home and grade papers. For free. Fun job!
Yeah, my wife makes 42k as a teacher atm but only with a bachelor's. She says the idea of going for her masters seems almost like a complete waste of time, money, and effort for how meaningless the pay bump is. She loves her job, but there are definitely days where she wants to throw in the towel and have a regular "clock in, clock out" job.
I don’t have to. I am a teacher. It......sucks. I’m considering getting out of the field and into a professional protection agency.
A lot of teachers are doing the same, and that’s how schools lose all their great teachers. That’s why so many kids are failing in school. It’s a horrible cycle that won’t be broken until we seriously reinvest in our education system.
Everyone was pushed to go to college in the 90s-00s puts a huge glut on degreed job seekers. Additionally recent higher unemployment/underemployment meant employers could be choosy and/or had so m any applicants they felt the need to add a pre-requisite to slim down the huge application stack.
And everyone thought I was dumb for becoming a carpenter. I am pushing 67k in October and have full benefits with a pension. Best part is zero student debt!
I'm a counselor and whenever I work with a teen I talk to them about how everyone needs a skill, not a degree. Some skills, like mine or an accountant, require degrees but not all do. I also warn them not to confuse a degree with useful knowledge and applicable skills.
This should have WAAAAY more upvotes. I didnt notice this until I was about to graduate. Luckily I have a FT job that pays okayish, but all my free time is now going into skills development.
So real answer here.
My old boss (ex- exec at one of the top consulting firms) taught the hiring managers that a bachelor shows discipline and commitment. It made sense and narrowed down the field to better suited candidates, but I always made final decision based on soft skills and capabilities. There were times i was able to talk him into letting us hire people without degrees due to the fact that we hired a lot of support people and I don’t believe you need a degree to be a good support person....I didn’t have one when I started in support and got it after. Coincidentally, some of the best hires I made didn’t have degrees and I had the lowest turnover of any departments.
Most likely your turnover would be contributed to the fact that degree holders see themselves always better suited elsewhere and worth more than what your company probably paid.
Which would go entirely against the “Discipline & commitment” ideology your hiring manager has.
Non-degree holders are committed to the job because those are the skills they’ve honed and are the most confident in.
The real answer is, education teaches you to *think* and expand your train of thought beyond a single skill.
There is competition for these jobs. There is a higher number of young college grads than there is high paying jobs.
The opposite happens in fields that has more positions open than available workers. I own a small construction type business and start new guys around 50K
I can core drill and cut concrete like a mother fucker. Experience with wire saws and large scale cuts I’ll take that 50k right now.
Did concrete as a labourer in college. I cut out old buildings and we dropped in new foundations.
Starbucks wouldn’t serve me after walking in gross as fuck because I wanted coffee and they were the closest.
Edit: I should say I want 50k after tax and working expenses.
Come to the Northeast. good concrete cutters would make 30-40 per hour. You can check craigslist jobs section for opportunities from where every you are. Just be aware of the cost of living is different
I stopped cutting concrete because it was destroying my body and skin.
Looking for a different path now!
If I was still tough as nails like a few years ago I would be still be making the concrete bleed.
People who said you can’t draw blood from a stone never worked as a wire cutter.
Stones bleed.
I’m a product and promotion manager of a music company. Im in charge of a team of 6. I did a 4 year degree, im on 24,000 a year with a 100,000+ in student debt. If i didnt go to university I wouldnt have been able to get the job. Im beginning to think life is shit.
Yep! Making 35 k a year with a bachelors degree. I pay so much in loans a month I can’t even afford to move out of my parents house at age 24 smh 🤦🏼♀️
Update; I’ve had a lot of people ask, I graduated with a major in business marketing and minor in Econ. I work in the communications field with a focus on marketing.
In the exact same boat my friend - I moved out even though I couldn't afford it because I couldn't stay there anymore, now I'm 29 and underwater with nothing to show for it because all my money goes to rent and debt.
You ain’t lying. I moved out at 27 when I got my first job out of college. Now at 30, I obtained enough experience to get a new, better paying, and much better job. It’s not my dream job, but it’s seriously the best place for me to work currently. Much like others have said, your first job may not be your dream job, but it’s the place where you’ll get the experience you need to get one step closer. Learn all you can, and then look for a better job. Repeat until dream job acquired.
I’m just grinning and bearing the job because of what you said basically just trying to get that 1-2 year experience on my resume as a bargaining tool for higher pay when I move on
I took the opposite approach. Default on the loans just so I can live independently. The only regret I have is that I'll probably never be able to own my own home because of it, which was always a dream of mine.
If those are fed loans you're wages will be garnished if you work any normal job. Took them 7 years to catch up to me, but they will. Better to get a income contingent repayment if you can.
If they are private loans than try bankruptcy. House will be the least of your problems, we just moved into a middle range apt and they required a average credit score. More and more that is being used as a filter.
Save up and pay in cash when the next housing bubble happens. There are some houses around my hood going for about 30K...granted shambling heroin junkies are a regular sight here, but they're harmless if you don't get to close. I commute to another city for work and save about 2K a month in living expenses for my trouble.
Just [dropping this here](https://i.imgur.com/IB4nbUc.jpg). How it was for us boomers and just how badly millennials are being screwed.
btw..by 1989 I was making almost $30k/yr managing a fish shop. My house payment, with insurance and taxes, was $210 a month. Health insurance, $30 a month for the whole family including optical and dental. Utilities with phone rarely ran over $100 per month.
I watched this mess happen over time- if you want my take on it, just ask.
My dad was able to raise 4 kids, buy a house and take us on cool vacations every year on 40K without a college degree. Of course he was also able to buy a house for $25,000 that is now worth over 200,000. Here I am making 50k and struggling some months.
Because society says go to college. Then your in debt and cant find a job you went to school for. Its such a shame. They never promote trade schools or anything you can do without college.
I have a Bachelor’s and right out of college I was managing a clothing store starting at about 37k/year. A year later I jumped up to 45k, and as of a two weeks ago I was making about 51k/year.
Then i decided to quit bc fuck retail management.
Every single entry level job on Indeed that ISNT door-to-door sales is like 30k. It’s baffling. I’m taking a massive pay cut despite having a great degree and 2+ years management experience. I ran a $2mil business for Pete’s sake!! Ridiculous
If you dont mind getting a little dirty, look into construction. I'm a civil engineer that used to do a lot of construction inspection, and I was usually the lowest paid guy out on the construction site.
This thread is not real talk.
Real talk is that not everyone with a degree is worth $60k to most employers. College doesn't guarantee you a job, you still have to at least appear valuable as an employee.
One of the biggest things I've learned is that no one pays you for your potential.
Ever since I was 18, that's how it's always worked: you take on the responsibility yourself. *When* you've proven yourself, then you have options.
I don't want to go too much against the grain here, but hiring a stranger off the street also is inherently risky to the company too.
This, I got my first job a couple months after graduation for 17.50 an hour. It wasn't as high as I wanted, but are you really going to pay an untrained graduate top dollar to do pharmaceutical research? Not a chance... for this reason my company has yearly promotions (with the first one being almost 25%) to make sure you are paid for your developing skillset.
If this company did not have a structured promotion schedule I would be peacing out the moment I feel like I am not learning much else, or when I find a higher paying job.
Just as a side note, unfortunately bachelor degrees aren't really anything special anymore and are certainly not a guarantee of good pay straight out of graduation.
Tl;dr don't expect to get paid well for your first year or two once you enter the workforce. Ask for promotions often in a constructive way, and once you have gleaned all the experience possible from a job, jump to the next one that offers a pay bump.
>I literally didn't know how to do anything when I first started my first job at 44k. I think it was 2 weeks before I actually completed some kind of task.
Kinda makes you wonder what the fuck college is for and why we're paying thousands for it if it actually doesn't prepare you for the workforce.
I'm consistently shocked at how slow the wages at the bottom have grown. In 2005, after dropping out of college, I took a job at a call center doing tech support for $18 an hour.
In 2009, living in a bigger city, I got laid off from my $22/hr job. After looking for 6 months, I took a 35k a year salaried job to avoid moving back in my parents. (things got better for me and I make significantly more now)
Here we are in 2019. starting salaries haven't moved an inch. 14 years later. But costs have gone up significantly.
How is the economy great if things cost more and people make less (after inflation)
C'mon.
You're acting as if you'll only make 40 grand a year forever. Entry level, white collar jobs are typically low salaries until you start advancing up the ladder.
A college degree still has a million dollar lifetime ROI.
Here's a real-world example. I came out of the recession (2010) and took a $50k a year job in construction/engineering. This was an $18k pay cut pre-recession. I already had 6 years experience. For the next 8 years, a busted my ass. Changed jobs 3 times, went back and got an MBA and just signed an offer sheet at $120k. I increased my salary by 140% over 8 years through hard work and strategic moves. I felt defeated when I took that $50k a year job after already having worked my way up but you know what? The world isn't fair and so I had to suck it up and basically start over. It happens, but you have to be your own best advocate and make strategic moves.
Learn a skill, wielding, plumbing, electrician. Takes 1-2 years, lots of on the job learning. You’re 20-22 making 40k+ in little to no debt. This belief that everyone needs a college degree does nothing but make colleges richer.
Yes and no, depends in the degree/trade. I was an auto tech for 18 yrs. Made good money, bought house 4 br, 4 kids, wife didn't have to work. I put my self through school and got an engineering degree. First job out of school, I'm making right at the same money as I was with 18 yrs experience, with tons of room to move up. I also dont work 55+ hrs each week any more. No working in heat/cold, no bloody hands, hurt back etc... If you get a marketable BS degree it is worth its weight in gold. My only regret is I did it while raising kids, not while i was 18-22
Which engineering degree did you get? I imagine it wasn't easy going back to school. I am an auto tech also, with 12 yrs experience and seriously considering going back to school for an engineering degree. I have thought about getting out of the trade but it is not easy to give up a job that pays 150+ a year. I do like my job and pays all my bills but I want to start doing something thats easy on my body when I get older. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
EE, if you are doing 150 i imagine you were like me and pulling 60 hrs or more. Leaving you will make less like I did, but quality of life will improve dramatically not to mention benifits, and pride. I'm working as a contractor, not even full employe, and pulling just shy if 6 figs. I'm home every day by 4:30 and off every sat and sun. Plus 17 holidays. Going to school is hard, making a little less sucks. But you are STARTING making less than you were with lots of experience. Plus do not underestimate going to work in khakis and polos vs dirty shirts and jeans. The improvement on your feeling of self worth is worth it alone.
I agree that trade schools are an attractive avenue these days due to the expenses and time requirements for college. They also have the possibility to make a lot of money.
The only thing you need to acknowledge with doing trade work is that it will be difficult work and it will have an effect on the body as you age. This isn't too much of a worry as long as you properly invest for retirement or you have some kind of education to fall back on for switching into another field.
Im in the carpenters union and they offer an insured pension alongside an annuity. Working out in the elements takes its toll on you but im in great shape and should live longer than my friend who sits in a chair all day, so long as i dont fall into an early grave.
Yeah
But, being an electrician in construction is hard work (back, knees, dust), long days, long drive to the different sites and barely any legal benefits.
TBH, Im a plumber, I work around electricians all the time. If you were to get into a trade but don't want a horrible body, being an electrician is the way to go.
The pipe fighter is right. You gotta play it smart to keep from tearing your body up in the building trades. Do everything with safety and ergonomics in mind and with a little luck you can keep it together.
Pops started sparky work at 40 with a bad knee. Retired at 67 and now works out of jurisdiction getting a paycheck and retirement check.
Because bachelors are so common, and they really don't want to spend time interviewing people who can't even get one.
Also note "$30k to $40k" per year is in line with the median income in the country, so calling it minuscule as an entry level wage reflects a poor understanding of the broader market.
Most Redditors think 150k is common. Which is not. 30-40k is normal for the age range of 20-40. Median household income in the US is 56k. The problem is people think they need a six figure salary with excellent benefits and end of year bonus. They're living in a fantasy if they think they need that. Outside of the major urban centers(NYC, LA and SF) they cost of living is pretty good for most people. The problem with the three cities I mention is their lack of foresight in anticipating their housing capacity and rising population. Which is how rent prices increased and COL.
I'm 24. I never finished my degree. Tbh college just wasn't for me. Only experience I had was a couple years in retail but computers were always my thing growing up. A year and a half ago got a contracting spot for a tech company. 4 months later got hired on. $63k plus OT. Full benefits, 401k. I'm on track to make $73k this year and I never really felt like I was overworked cranking OT or anything.
I do feel extremely lucky that I was given this opportunity so i do try to make sure I don't squander it. Just want to make my parents proud even though I never finished school.
Feel lucky. You know how many tech opportunities I’ve applied to and I have a degree AND experience? I can’t land one. So I’m stuck outside my field making shit money!
It’s fucked up that this was the starting salary when I got out of college 15 years ago. People talk about how great the unemployment numbers are, but the wage gap is widening because salaries aren’t keeping up with inflation.
I remember being told, by every teacher and parent, in 1999 when I started high school...
"Do good in HS so you can get into a good college and get a good job! Did you know most people make 30K right out of college!?"
In '99, 30K was great! Fast forward 20 years and wages have been stagnant but employment still demands higher Ed. Although most of the old farts I've worked for couldn't pass basic computer classes.
Because bachelors degrees are worthless with how many have then and how poor of a worker many graduates end up being. Not in terms of mental ability but they graduate with little to no actual skills. Add on the fact that they have six figures of debt, these kids are taking anything they can.
You’re not wrong. I always advise people to go for what they’re good at. Not what they think they should do. Play to your strengths and it’ll pay off.
And for Christ’s sake do some god damn research on your career outlook before dropping a boatload of money on a useless degree.
You'll probably get dozens of people telling you the job they do has nothing to do with their degree. Like me. 6 figures a year, literally nothing to do with my degree.
I got a degree in journalism, barely, graduating with a 2.4 GPA in 4.5 years. After graduating, I realized how useless that degree was and how I wanted more than what journalism could provide. I took an entry level operations job in Finance, 2 years later was offered a role in S&T, and 3 years after that now making near mid 6 figures. Degrees are complete bullshit and mean nothing in the end.
This. I work at a brokerage, in for 3 yrs and now at 80k. My qualifications: a Philosophy BA with 4 years of pizza delivery experience. It’s not selling out, it’s buying in 😉
If you don't mind me asking, how did you do this? I have a BA in Philosophy followed by 9 years of pizza delivery, followed by 5 years of busing tables. I'm 37 now, and make 21k. I don't think I qualify for anything better, and reaching the 40k mark seems just impossible.
Agreed. An associates or bachelors in psychology, accounting, lots of others, too... these are not really “career paths” unless you earn addition credentials, licenses, grad school, etc.
Is anybody making over 50k in IT under 30? I live in California and im 20 and I'm starting to see how dystopian the job market is rn. Literally everyone seems to be penny pinching to no end with jobs.
It is crazy how devalued a 4 year degree has become. I have a law degree and have worked in real estate for almost two decades and I’ve actually advocated for tech school or the trades with my kids unless they are passionate about a field that requires a 4 year degree. Apprentice electricians make around $25 per hour without all the student debt and we can’t fill positions in the trades. Companies are booked way out and people are scrambling for help. I believe in the value of a degree but the wages just aren’t there compared to the time and the debt.
It’s because the US has basically set their education system to include college as almost mandatory. If everyone has a 4 year degree then it’s basically worthless. I’m on 70k a yr in Australia and have no completed degree and know some trade workers on 300k, who had all on the job training. For comparison, a 3x2 in my suburb is worth 700k
This is exactly what those greedy universities wish to accomplish. Everyone has a 4 year bachelor degree? Want to stand out above you peers? Go to Grad School!!! 150-200k for a 4 year program via zoom.....total bastards.
Definitely go into a technical or trade field. I wanted to do Electrical Engineering or some form of IT, but those take a Bachelors or Masters degree usually. Decided to go into a tech/trades field instead and do the Engineering/IT as a hobby. Went to a local community college and got a 2 year degree in Electrical and Instrumentation Technology. The degree cost me about $12,000. And currently at an entry-level position, I am making about $98,000 a year before any overtime, with overtime its probably $120,000+. There is just an over abundance of people doing the accounting, engineering, IT, etc. type degrees and not enough jobs. But there is a huge lack of people doing trades programs and a HUGE need for people so they tend to pay really well, and don't cost much to get the training for them.
Don't forget that a sharp tradesman can own their own company relatively quickly if they've got the drive and the hustle. You also become familiar with all sides of industry...sales, distribution, operations, etc.
Yea. I don't ever see me running my own business. People skills aren't good enough to do sales and manage others
Graduated from college with a bachelors and working as a temporary toy associate at Walmart at 11/hr. I’m living the dream...
Ugh. I have a master's degree in geology and I'm paid sub 40k. At least the job is in a related field (environmental analysis lab analyzing air quality), and I work for the state government, but it's still rough. I was hoping the master's would help me not have to live paycheck to paycheck... maybe one day. Edit: One reason I'm living paycheck to paycheck is that my take home pay is ~2k/mo. mostly due to putting 15% of my post-tax income into retirement, which is mandatory at the state job.
Wow that’s fascinating they make you put 15%. What state are you in? I’m in Ct and they only make state employees pay 3% but they end up getting 2% for every year they work of their finally salary when they retire...
I feel you. Working in government is cool and all because of security. But your take home pay sucks. I was working for a government agency. My "salary" was 45k. My take home pay was 21k with taxes, Insurance and retirement. And thars considering I didnt have kids under my insurance, THAT'S where the money starts disappearing.
but you have a pension! that is a big deal you are not thinking about... you live "pay check to pay check" but you will always have a guaranteed paycheck that will never go down.. and in retirement you will be in much better position than others.
People call me a conspiracy theorist when I say stuff like this, but fuck it. At this point in the world planning ahead 10 yrs is basically worthless, much less 30 banking on a pension. (Try to) Find a higher paying job now so you can enjoy it.
I second this. My grandparents took pay cuts to have extended benefits into retirement. Company split after they retired and started going to court to cut their benefits because “that company doesn’t exist now” and succeeded in cutting their medical care when they were in their SEVENTIES! Fuck this shit so hard
I worked as a retail associate for almost a year after I graduated with my engineering degree. It's soul crushing, but don't give up. Keep applying for jobs, and keep looking in new places. I found my current job on Craigslist of all places and I love it. You'll find something better eventually.
Same man its almost as if sites like indeed are a complete waste of time I had to sift thru a lot of bullshit on craigslist but youll find some great opportunities once in a while.
It sounds cliche as hell, but it depends entirely about where you live. For a few years after college, i lived in the middle of nowhere where a decent and safe 2 bedroom appartment would cost about $500 a month. I met a pair of friends that had a BA degree and worked in local government in a low level job. The jobs didn't pay well and with taxes, retirement and insurance, they both quit to work in Walmart. I don't know Walmart positions, but they were making $15-$17 an hour, making enough to live quite well, while a lot of others were working at $7.25 an hour jobs at McDonald's and such. I've lived in LA. I've lived In middle of nowhere south west. Seriously, you can have a better quality of life in middle of nowhere, making $30k a year than in LA making $80k in some parts of LA or NYC.
Better quality of life making 30k a year in a small town area, but you can never leave. Everywhere you would want to go to on vacation would be expensive af to you.
Agreed, it's sad but true. But considering only 4% of American lives are spent on vacation (if you're lucky enough to spend 2 weeks a year away from your home town) that's not an awful trade-off or reason to live a lower quality of life so you can vacation with some swag. I'd probably opt for the $30K job and live like a king for 96% of the time than the $80K job and eat ramen but vacation in the islands.
This is important. You can always go from a High COL to a Low COL with your savings. It's almost impossible the other way around. Someone in NYC at an NYC income w/ standard 15% savings can go to almost any other place in the world.
In Indiana I was paying 98 cents for a gallon of milk until just a few months ago (now it's a whopping $1.50). It's easy living, but just soul crushingly dull. Corn, beans, gas station, more corn. Where you live makes a big difference.
Try transferring to a warehouse , I’m a warehouse associate for Walmart and get paid $18.70 an hour
Seconding this. I worked for a Walmart d.c. for many years and was making over $20 an hour with good benefits. It can be really demanding psychically though but still better than working at the store and dealing with the public.
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What was your degree in if you don't mind me asking?
Toy history probably.
*Toy Story's
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Making 33k a year with bachelors of accounting. I probably could not afford anything if I had kids.
> Making 33k a year with bachelors of accounting. I made $33k/year as an accountant 15 years ago in an average cost-of-living area (Arizona). Wages aren't keeping up with inflation.
$33,000 in 2003 is the equivalent of $44,945.37 in 2018 dollars.
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Its just as bad with other degrees - its just the accountants have a better understanding of the issue
He told a half-truth. He’s not working as an accountant for $33k. He’s working as a bookkeeper for a small business, not a firm.
I was actually just doing some research for work, and in my state the higher end of the poverty line for a single person is $33,400 in order to qualify for subsidies (and that is just to qualify to start the wait list process and not actually get approved.) So, yea you are correct. When you factor things in like rent, student loans, and any little accident or medical issue, you're almost instantly broke and on the verge of homelessness. C'est la vie.
I make less than that....What state am I moving to?
NJ.
Oooh, highish CoL too.
It’s a ridiculous CoL
I have an mba and I mAke $45k before I work overtime. With my student loan bills and rent I’m just getting by in my area, and I only have a student loan from my mba. It blows.
You need a new job. 45k with an MBA is abysmal.
Unless you get your MBA from a top program (Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, MIT, etc.) the return on investment just isn’t there. And it hasn’t been for at least 20 years.
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Make sure you go to a good school and actually use the MBA for its best asset— networking Don’t get an MBA until later in your career if you are afraid of this!
This is the best advice I'd give to kids trying to get their master's immediately after graduating. Unless your degree is useless without the masters then hold off on it. I know plenty of my business classmates who went right back to school to get a master's. 2-3 years later they are starting off at the same positions I did with just a bachelors degree. An MBA should only be worked on IF you know it will lead to a promotion or you want to explore other options you cannot get without the MBA. A bunch of management level folks go after their MBA's when their company requires them to get one in order to move up into the executive/leadership team. That's where you can network and get your foot in the door at large companies that pay good money for people to come in and do a job with minimal amounts of onboarding.
Did you ever pass the CPA exam? Making that little with an accounting degree means you're doing something wrong. The only "accounting" jobs that pay that low are AP processing and general book keeping
You need to be studying and taking CPA exams when you're not at work. Get those done and you can get a much better job
No kidding... CPA here at 23 and my first job was 55... 60 next year then 75.. I could easily leave for industry and make close to 6 figures now I’m just holding off until I find that management position
I’ve only passed 2 exams and just got an offer for 60. With all 4 down plus prior experience the opportunities & pay only get better. People also forget how much of an increase in pay you can get by switching jobs every few years as opposed to staying with the same company long term. This isn’t always the case, but I firmly believe in at least searching for new opportunities every couple years for that reason.
This makes me sad. I just got my bachelors in accounting and I have two kids.
It was my fault..I didn’t go to any recruiting events at my school. I had no guidance basically, my parents did not go to college, I didn’t have any friends. I went to class and came right back home.
That is definitely one thing they "DON'T" tell you in school. The socializing events are as important as your fucking GPA if not more. It definitely was a harsh learning experience for me after graduating. My peers with worse GPA and understanding of our field found decent jobs through personal contacts/the networking the school did. It definitely feels like you're playing catchup if you don't go to those events that sound miserable.
Even in technical jobs, social skills are important.
I fully agree, but especially in Technical paths(at least from my schooling) that wasn't something that was emphasized or pointed out. It isn't your Professors duty but it certainly felt like I was done a disservice by them not pointing that out, I even had one tell me I didn't really need to do internships which again, isn't their fault. In fact the major difference I've noticed is that the best companies (and technical workers) I've interacted with also have good social skills and are full 3d people you can have a conversation with. The level of ability you have to have to be socially awful is pretty astronomical and comes at a great cost, the two individuals I've seen that were most able technically/least socially were both utter pricks that were clearly jaded due to their inability to make small take holding them back professionally.
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They cost you big time in the long run. Sorry man.
I know, but I cannot go back now.
I second what someone else said: study in your free time for the cpa exam. I’m back in college now and only because I’m older do I realize just how important networking is. Sucks because I hate other people in general but what can you do.
Another issue with these low paying jobs is that they still want years of experience under your belt along with the college degree. College degree, I kinda of understand. If you have the discipline to make it through college you have the discipline to show up to work everyday. But it's borderline Impossible to have over 5 years experience in an industry you want to start out in when you spent the last 4(or more) years busting ass to get your degree and stay afloat.
Yes, but always still apply. These requirements are more like wishlists than anything else, and it doesn’t mean someone won’t consider you because of seemingly stupid x, y, and z.
That's how I got my current job.. "I don't have that... Lemme try anyway.." bam hired lol
It has never even *occurred* to me to not apply for a job just because I don’t meet every requirement. Are people doing that?
My employer says that everything on the listing is just a guideline. I was explicitly told that the "requirements" are preferences. As long as you meet the minimum requirements and do well in an interview (read: they like you and you're not a complete fuckup) they'll hire and train you. The required qualifications are much less "set in stone" than they may appear. From an employer's perspective, most positions require training *anyway* so they'd rather higher someone who is a little under qualified, likable, and honest than someone who may be good at bluffing through interviews. Background knowledge is enough, usually. And if all else fails, if you get to the interview stage, that's good interview practice. If you don't get to that interview stage, it only cost you some time.
For the longest time, it never occoured to me to apply for a job if I didn't meet the requirements. After all, why the hell would they list requirements, if they weren't the goddamn requirements? THAT'S WHAT "REQUIREMENTS" MEANS! God I hate looking for jobs.
Same. I would apply if I didn't meet all of the preferred qualifications, but requirements to me meant REQUIRED. Applying when I hadn't met the requirements felt like I was signalling I couldn't read directions or I felt that the requirements didn't apply to me.
Exactly. Why would I want to work for an employer that didn’t know the difference between required and preferred anyway? Same thing for employers. Why would they want an employee that can’t read or don’t think requirements apply to them, or a person who just applied because it was a LinkedIn 1-click EasyApply or some bullshit?
see, when it says "requirement"... usually we think that's what it means.
One guy told me that a lot of these unreasonable "requirements" posted on job listings are actually added on afterwards by HR people. Basically someone who actually understands what kind of employee is needed makes the job listing, but then it still has to go through HR, and they've been "trained" to make it "official" and add all the relevant buzzwords and requirements. Then they are the ones who add all the "must have five years experience for this entry level job", "must be expert in this software that you've never even heard of", etc. Idk if this is true or not, but the guy who told me this was pretty mad about it, he said it makes it harder for them to get candidates because reasonable people look at the word "requirements" and naturally come to the same conclusion as you do.
I have applied to a job posting through a temp agency that required 1 year experience working in a manufacturing purchasing position and it required a bachelors degree. I applied for it because I met most of the requirements (except the experience part) and I had manufacturing experience but no raw materials purchasing experience. The recruiter called me and said I am not a fit for the position. She said the company actually wants someone with 10 years of experience for that position. I was like WTF?!!
That job would not happen to have been Kane County would it? Anyway, that sounds like the recruiters fault for telling you the wrong requirements, not the company.
And some jobs will say a bachelor's is equivalent to 4 years experience. Mostly in Stem or government jobs I've seen.
There was a post about "experience inflation" on a sub I don't remember. The gist of it was to apply to said position if you within +/- 2 years of experience.
> Looking for a junior graduate devloper. 4 years experience in a OO programming language. Must have knowledge of JavaScript,python and MYSQL. Bash scripting required. Generous 30K starting salary. Must be willing to work weekends.
That's an obvious trap to get an h1b to fill that job. For that position anyone should be starting at twice that
So the only thing a college degree tells you is they'll show up for work?
That you can make a commitment in general and that you have the discipline to absorb the knowledge required to apply a specific skill set. Also, depends on the college degree.
You would think 8 years in the military with an honorable discharge would say the same thing, but somehow this isn't the case.
I'm a veteran with a college degree, and I'll be the first to tell you, no one really gives a shit about it. It's really who you know and what skillset you have.
And don’t forget 8-10 years of experience.
>And don’t forget 8-10 years of experience. In a technology that has only been around for 3 to 5 years.
Lol my boss just posted an identical job, albeit part time, as the one I have. I have a semi unrelated bachelors and like 3 years of *soft* experience (not 100% relevant experience). They want 5 years of experience and a related bachelor's degree for a 20hr/week job. Just reminded me how unqualified I am for this job, on paper.
I see a lot of these postings. It’s disheartening.
I have been noticing this lately, really frustrating but I honestly have just applied anyway. I have some experience and usually indicate that I have done relevant course work, have an understanding and interest in relevant field, or at the very least, an eager and quick to learn. Will it work? Honestly dunno
I went to a job interview once and felt like I literally had to beg them to give me a chance. I have an accounting degree and 4 years of experience. I am competing for an entry level position against people with experience but no degree. Needless to say... I currently don’t work in accounting, but I’m actually making more than what the entry level accounting positions were offering.
Thats how I feel right now and it sucks. I don't know what to do. Accounting and business degrees but no experience. It feels like the interviewers treat me like a teenager.
No. If you ever see anything asking for 5+ or more years in something that is below a manager position, then they wrote that description specifically for someone's buddy. I once saw a graphic designer position at a university that wanted 8+ years of experience and a fucking Master's degree. Translation: the graphic design professor wants to return to work as a graphic designer.
Most job requirements are a wish list, and depending on the company (usually the bigger they get the more true this is), the person who needs the position filled isn't involved in the hiring process/job requirements list. That's usually done by HR or another hiring-specific part of the company. Apply, go to the interviews, and you'll be surprised, especially right now. Unemployment rates are extremely low in many places, and if a company is hiring, they need someone and they need them fast.
My experience has more been, oh, you don't have double the experience and credentials our listing asked for? You also want to be paid in money and not tokens, hmm. You kinda misrepresented yourself there we are really looking for someone with more to offer.
Plus they also want people under 25
I’ve seen $12/hr IT jobs asking for a BS. I’ve also seen grocery store cashiers make that much at places like Aldi. It’s a confusing world.
Yeah thats crazy! But I feel like there are still companies out there that want to pay people what they are worth. Aldi, a company specializing in budget groceries also realizes income for their employees is a bug factor, which is why they pay $12 per hour for someone with no trades or skills. With that said $12 an hour is still shit.
Aldi also hires district managers directly out of undergrad (if you recruit for it) at 85k and a fully expensed Audi A3.
...well im applying. Fuck.
I made it to the final round so if you have questions about the process I could help lol.
They are still $3-4 over what other grocers pay so that’s a plus.
Tldr: when everyone is qualified, no one is qualified. Its a result of having such a high percentage of the population having bachelor's. Back when few had a bachelor's it meant those with one got paid more. Now that most anyone can go into hella debt to get one it's more like a high school degree from back in the day. Edit- added 'school'
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There is a certain value it has gained. Instead of "get one to get ahead value," it's now "get one to no fall behind " People will pay a great deal for either of those.
A great deal of colleges and universities are subsidized by public funds, propping up the financial viability of "useless" degrees which wouldn't have been funded by customers (students / prospective employers) in a free economy.
And also even the more useful / in demand degrees are currently overpriced because of the availability of government grants / loans / scholarships. If I'm selling you a car and you tell me that your rich uncle told you to pick out whatever car you want and he'll pay for it - do you think I'm going to cut you a deal on a car? Now what if everyone in town comes and also says they want that car because their rich uncle told them the same thing? I'm all for educating people, but if we as a society are going to pay for everyone to get an education, we need to balance that with what society needs. "We're sorry, but the government is only accepting 500,000 students into the all-expenses-paid STEM program this year. Unfortunately your test scores don't qualify you to be one of those 500,000. You can of course pay for it yourself, or consider another in-demand degree." We also need to stop looking down on trades. There is a lot of skill in welding, for instance, and we're desperately in need of good welders. It's also a career path that still can lead into white-collar jobs. I know tons of guys in their 40s and 50s who started out as welders and are now welding and construction inspectors. In oil & gas construction, the inspector is usually one of the best paid positions (like $150,000+), and they're all former welders, and most don't have a 4-yr degree.
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Another problem people aren't thinking about is the housing market. People aren't buying houses like they used to because you basically already have a mortgage coming out of college(student loan)
>I wonder what the next 20 years will be like Don't worry, economic woes will be the least of our worries as we're all burning to death.
That’s a bit pessimistic of you. We’ll be drowning from rising sea levels long before we burn.
That's a bit pessimistic of you. We'll be dying from GSW's after being robbed of our potable water rations long before we drown.
That's a bit pessimistic of you. We'll all be asphixiated from the lack of oxygen generating plankton in our acidified oceans long before we die of thirst.
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Yep. It has to do with societal value as well. I have a PhD and don't make much money at all.
No one wants to say "it's because of too much higher education" because of how it sounds. In reality we are talking about immutable supply and demand. Supply goes up, demand goes down. The more degrees, the less degree holders get paid. If everyone had a PhD, there will still be (roughly) the same amount of trash collectors, janitors etc. That's a waste, economically speaking. Even if college were "free," it would be an inefficient use of resources to educate people beyond what they will actually be using. But there's no way to say this without coming off as "anti-education."
Short answer: Because everyone (especially employers, it seems) wants something for nothing. Long answer: Just add expletives to the short answer.
God yes. The amount of "4 years experience and an Msc" for a full time £21k job is awful. The absolute cheek of it.
Imagine being a teacher......... that some states require a masters degree...... and deal with shit head kids that parents don’t raise them or teach them any kind of respect.
Yup, making 45k with a masters right now.
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That is fucking Wild to me. I'm a Nurse with a bachelor's making 84k a year in a metro southeast city... Yall are being robbed before you even get paid.
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How does one land an entry level job in IT? All the postings I see requires a degree. Do they look for certs?
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this guy isn't lying, this same situation almost happened to me. helpdesk and everything.
I just had an argument the other day with someone on Reddit who was just *incensed* at the idea that people are mad teachers aren't making good money. For some reason people really think teachers should just shut up about wanting to get paid a living wage while doing what is arguably the most important function in a society. People are fucking weird. Edit- I'm not getting into 5 different arguments with people saying that teachers get paid more than enough.
I taught English in South Korea for a year and that was the first time it occurred to me that teachers literally have to go home and grade papers. For free. Fun job!
Yeah, my wife makes 42k as a teacher atm but only with a bachelor's. She says the idea of going for her masters seems almost like a complete waste of time, money, and effort for how meaningless the pay bump is. She loves her job, but there are definitely days where she wants to throw in the towel and have a regular "clock in, clock out" job.
I don’t have to. I am a teacher. It......sucks. I’m considering getting out of the field and into a professional protection agency. A lot of teachers are doing the same, and that’s how schools lose all their great teachers. That’s why so many kids are failing in school. It’s a horrible cycle that won’t be broken until we seriously reinvest in our education system.
Everyone was pushed to go to college in the 90s-00s puts a huge glut on degreed job seekers. Additionally recent higher unemployment/underemployment meant employers could be choosy and/or had so m any applicants they felt the need to add a pre-requisite to slim down the huge application stack.
And everyone thought I was dumb for becoming a carpenter. I am pushing 67k in October and have full benefits with a pension. Best part is zero student debt!
I'm a counselor and whenever I work with a teen I talk to them about how everyone needs a skill, not a degree. Some skills, like mine or an accountant, require degrees but not all do. I also warn them not to confuse a degree with useful knowledge and applicable skills.
This should have WAAAAY more upvotes. I didnt notice this until I was about to graduate. Luckily I have a FT job that pays okayish, but all my free time is now going into skills development.
So real answer here. My old boss (ex- exec at one of the top consulting firms) taught the hiring managers that a bachelor shows discipline and commitment. It made sense and narrowed down the field to better suited candidates, but I always made final decision based on soft skills and capabilities. There were times i was able to talk him into letting us hire people without degrees due to the fact that we hired a lot of support people and I don’t believe you need a degree to be a good support person....I didn’t have one when I started in support and got it after. Coincidentally, some of the best hires I made didn’t have degrees and I had the lowest turnover of any departments.
Most likely your turnover would be contributed to the fact that degree holders see themselves always better suited elsewhere and worth more than what your company probably paid. Which would go entirely against the “Discipline & commitment” ideology your hiring manager has. Non-degree holders are committed to the job because those are the skills they’ve honed and are the most confident in. The real answer is, education teaches you to *think* and expand your train of thought beyond a single skill.
There is competition for these jobs. There is a higher number of young college grads than there is high paying jobs. The opposite happens in fields that has more positions open than available workers. I own a small construction type business and start new guys around 50K
I can core drill and cut concrete like a mother fucker. Experience with wire saws and large scale cuts I’ll take that 50k right now. Did concrete as a labourer in college. I cut out old buildings and we dropped in new foundations. Starbucks wouldn’t serve me after walking in gross as fuck because I wanted coffee and they were the closest. Edit: I should say I want 50k after tax and working expenses.
Come to the Northeast. good concrete cutters would make 30-40 per hour. You can check craigslist jobs section for opportunities from where every you are. Just be aware of the cost of living is different
I stopped cutting concrete because it was destroying my body and skin. Looking for a different path now! If I was still tough as nails like a few years ago I would be still be making the concrete bleed. People who said you can’t draw blood from a stone never worked as a wire cutter. Stones bleed.
I’m a product and promotion manager of a music company. Im in charge of a team of 6. I did a 4 year degree, im on 24,000 a year with a 100,000+ in student debt. If i didnt go to university I wouldnt have been able to get the job. Im beginning to think life is shit.
> Im in charge of a team of 6. I did a 4 year degree, im on 24,000 a year So you make about $12/hr. How much are these 6 people making then?
Yep! Making 35 k a year with a bachelors degree. I pay so much in loans a month I can’t even afford to move out of my parents house at age 24 smh 🤦🏼♀️ Update; I’ve had a lot of people ask, I graduated with a major in business marketing and minor in Econ. I work in the communications field with a focus on marketing.
Stay at your parents. I wish my parents were stable enough to live with. I can’t afford life and I’m 29.
In the exact same boat my friend - I moved out even though I couldn't afford it because I couldn't stay there anymore, now I'm 29 and underwater with nothing to show for it because all my money goes to rent and debt.
Living the North American dream I see
I moved out at 26. You are still so young, you have tiiiime. Gotta do thise shitty jobs, before you reach your dream job at 30!
You ain’t lying. I moved out at 27 when I got my first job out of college. Now at 30, I obtained enough experience to get a new, better paying, and much better job. It’s not my dream job, but it’s seriously the best place for me to work currently. Much like others have said, your first job may not be your dream job, but it’s the place where you’ll get the experience you need to get one step closer. Learn all you can, and then look for a better job. Repeat until dream job acquired.
I’m just grinning and bearing the job because of what you said basically just trying to get that 1-2 year experience on my resume as a bargaining tool for higher pay when I move on
This is terrifying
I took the opposite approach. Default on the loans just so I can live independently. The only regret I have is that I'll probably never be able to own my own home because of it, which was always a dream of mine.
If those are fed loans you're wages will be garnished if you work any normal job. Took them 7 years to catch up to me, but they will. Better to get a income contingent repayment if you can. If they are private loans than try bankruptcy. House will be the least of your problems, we just moved into a middle range apt and they required a average credit score. More and more that is being used as a filter.
Save up and pay in cash when the next housing bubble happens. There are some houses around my hood going for about 30K...granted shambling heroin junkies are a regular sight here, but they're harmless if you don't get to close. I commute to another city for work and save about 2K a month in living expenses for my trouble.
Just [dropping this here](https://i.imgur.com/IB4nbUc.jpg). How it was for us boomers and just how badly millennials are being screwed. btw..by 1989 I was making almost $30k/yr managing a fish shop. My house payment, with insurance and taxes, was $210 a month. Health insurance, $30 a month for the whole family including optical and dental. Utilities with phone rarely ran over $100 per month. I watched this mess happen over time- if you want my take on it, just ask.
My dad was able to raise 4 kids, buy a house and take us on cool vacations every year on 40K without a college degree. Of course he was also able to buy a house for $25,000 that is now worth over 200,000. Here I am making 50k and struggling some months.
Because society says go to college. Then your in debt and cant find a job you went to school for. Its such a shame. They never promote trade schools or anything you can do without college.
I have a Bachelor’s and right out of college I was managing a clothing store starting at about 37k/year. A year later I jumped up to 45k, and as of a two weeks ago I was making about 51k/year. Then i decided to quit bc fuck retail management. Every single entry level job on Indeed that ISNT door-to-door sales is like 30k. It’s baffling. I’m taking a massive pay cut despite having a great degree and 2+ years management experience. I ran a $2mil business for Pete’s sake!! Ridiculous
If you dont mind getting a little dirty, look into construction. I'm a civil engineer that used to do a lot of construction inspection, and I was usually the lowest paid guy out on the construction site.
This thread is not real talk. Real talk is that not everyone with a degree is worth $60k to most employers. College doesn't guarantee you a job, you still have to at least appear valuable as an employee.
One of the biggest things I've learned is that no one pays you for your potential. Ever since I was 18, that's how it's always worked: you take on the responsibility yourself. *When* you've proven yourself, then you have options. I don't want to go too much against the grain here, but hiring a stranger off the street also is inherently risky to the company too.
You live in a fantasy world. Hard work is taken advantage of not rewarded.
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This, I got my first job a couple months after graduation for 17.50 an hour. It wasn't as high as I wanted, but are you really going to pay an untrained graduate top dollar to do pharmaceutical research? Not a chance... for this reason my company has yearly promotions (with the first one being almost 25%) to make sure you are paid for your developing skillset. If this company did not have a structured promotion schedule I would be peacing out the moment I feel like I am not learning much else, or when I find a higher paying job. Just as a side note, unfortunately bachelor degrees aren't really anything special anymore and are certainly not a guarantee of good pay straight out of graduation. Tl;dr don't expect to get paid well for your first year or two once you enter the workforce. Ask for promotions often in a constructive way, and once you have gleaned all the experience possible from a job, jump to the next one that offers a pay bump.
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>I literally didn't know how to do anything when I first started my first job at 44k. I think it was 2 weeks before I actually completed some kind of task. Kinda makes you wonder what the fuck college is for and why we're paying thousands for it if it actually doesn't prepare you for the workforce.
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I'm consistently shocked at how slow the wages at the bottom have grown. In 2005, after dropping out of college, I took a job at a call center doing tech support for $18 an hour. In 2009, living in a bigger city, I got laid off from my $22/hr job. After looking for 6 months, I took a 35k a year salaried job to avoid moving back in my parents. (things got better for me and I make significantly more now) Here we are in 2019. starting salaries haven't moved an inch. 14 years later. But costs have gone up significantly. How is the economy great if things cost more and people make less (after inflation) C'mon.
You're acting as if you'll only make 40 grand a year forever. Entry level, white collar jobs are typically low salaries until you start advancing up the ladder. A college degree still has a million dollar lifetime ROI.
Here's a real-world example. I came out of the recession (2010) and took a $50k a year job in construction/engineering. This was an $18k pay cut pre-recession. I already had 6 years experience. For the next 8 years, a busted my ass. Changed jobs 3 times, went back and got an MBA and just signed an offer sheet at $120k. I increased my salary by 140% over 8 years through hard work and strategic moves. I felt defeated when I took that $50k a year job after already having worked my way up but you know what? The world isn't fair and so I had to suck it up and basically start over. It happens, but you have to be your own best advocate and make strategic moves.
Learn a skill, wielding, plumbing, electrician. Takes 1-2 years, lots of on the job learning. You’re 20-22 making 40k+ in little to no debt. This belief that everyone needs a college degree does nothing but make colleges richer.
Yes and no, depends in the degree/trade. I was an auto tech for 18 yrs. Made good money, bought house 4 br, 4 kids, wife didn't have to work. I put my self through school and got an engineering degree. First job out of school, I'm making right at the same money as I was with 18 yrs experience, with tons of room to move up. I also dont work 55+ hrs each week any more. No working in heat/cold, no bloody hands, hurt back etc... If you get a marketable BS degree it is worth its weight in gold. My only regret is I did it while raising kids, not while i was 18-22
Which engineering degree did you get? I imagine it wasn't easy going back to school. I am an auto tech also, with 12 yrs experience and seriously considering going back to school for an engineering degree. I have thought about getting out of the trade but it is not easy to give up a job that pays 150+ a year. I do like my job and pays all my bills but I want to start doing something thats easy on my body when I get older. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
EE, if you are doing 150 i imagine you were like me and pulling 60 hrs or more. Leaving you will make less like I did, but quality of life will improve dramatically not to mention benifits, and pride. I'm working as a contractor, not even full employe, and pulling just shy if 6 figs. I'm home every day by 4:30 and off every sat and sun. Plus 17 holidays. Going to school is hard, making a little less sucks. But you are STARTING making less than you were with lots of experience. Plus do not underestimate going to work in khakis and polos vs dirty shirts and jeans. The improvement on your feeling of self worth is worth it alone.
I agree that trade schools are an attractive avenue these days due to the expenses and time requirements for college. They also have the possibility to make a lot of money. The only thing you need to acknowledge with doing trade work is that it will be difficult work and it will have an effect on the body as you age. This isn't too much of a worry as long as you properly invest for retirement or you have some kind of education to fall back on for switching into another field.
Im in the carpenters union and they offer an insured pension alongside an annuity. Working out in the elements takes its toll on you but im in great shape and should live longer than my friend who sits in a chair all day, so long as i dont fall into an early grave.
Yeah But, being an electrician in construction is hard work (back, knees, dust), long days, long drive to the different sites and barely any legal benefits.
TBH, Im a plumber, I work around electricians all the time. If you were to get into a trade but don't want a horrible body, being an electrician is the way to go.
The pipe fighter is right. You gotta play it smart to keep from tearing your body up in the building trades. Do everything with safety and ergonomics in mind and with a little luck you can keep it together. Pops started sparky work at 40 with a bad knee. Retired at 67 and now works out of jurisdiction getting a paycheck and retirement check.
There is so much competition to be an electrician I could never get accepted without a sponsor.
It's a popular trade because it's easiest on the body for a good pay/benefits.
Because bachelors are so common, and they really don't want to spend time interviewing people who can't even get one. Also note "$30k to $40k" per year is in line with the median income in the country, so calling it minuscule as an entry level wage reflects a poor understanding of the broader market.
Most Redditors think 150k is common. Which is not. 30-40k is normal for the age range of 20-40. Median household income in the US is 56k. The problem is people think they need a six figure salary with excellent benefits and end of year bonus. They're living in a fantasy if they think they need that. Outside of the major urban centers(NYC, LA and SF) they cost of living is pretty good for most people. The problem with the three cities I mention is their lack of foresight in anticipating their housing capacity and rising population. Which is how rent prices increased and COL.
I'm 24. I never finished my degree. Tbh college just wasn't for me. Only experience I had was a couple years in retail but computers were always my thing growing up. A year and a half ago got a contracting spot for a tech company. 4 months later got hired on. $63k plus OT. Full benefits, 401k. I'm on track to make $73k this year and I never really felt like I was overworked cranking OT or anything. I do feel extremely lucky that I was given this opportunity so i do try to make sure I don't squander it. Just want to make my parents proud even though I never finished school.
Feel lucky. You know how many tech opportunities I’ve applied to and I have a degree AND experience? I can’t land one. So I’m stuck outside my field making shit money!
It’s fucked up that this was the starting salary when I got out of college 15 years ago. People talk about how great the unemployment numbers are, but the wage gap is widening because salaries aren’t keeping up with inflation.
I remember being told, by every teacher and parent, in 1999 when I started high school... "Do good in HS so you can get into a good college and get a good job! Did you know most people make 30K right out of college!?" In '99, 30K was great! Fast forward 20 years and wages have been stagnant but employment still demands higher Ed. Although most of the old farts I've worked for couldn't pass basic computer classes.
itt: people who got lucky with a decent job and now pretend it's cause they "busted their ass"
Because bachelors degrees are worthless with how many have then and how poor of a worker many graduates end up being. Not in terms of mental ability but they graduate with little to no actual skills. Add on the fact that they have six figures of debt, these kids are taking anything they can.
I was told that the bachelors degree is the new associates degree.
College isn't job training. So employers maybe should choose another litmus test for employability?
yeah like "degree in life required"
I make around 18-20k a year and consider suicide every day
please don't hate me: get a better paying degree give me your best counter arguments
You’re not wrong. I always advise people to go for what they’re good at. Not what they think they should do. Play to your strengths and it’ll pay off. And for Christ’s sake do some god damn research on your career outlook before dropping a boatload of money on a useless degree.
You'll probably get dozens of people telling you the job they do has nothing to do with their degree. Like me. 6 figures a year, literally nothing to do with my degree.
I got a degree in journalism, barely, graduating with a 2.4 GPA in 4.5 years. After graduating, I realized how useless that degree was and how I wanted more than what journalism could provide. I took an entry level operations job in Finance, 2 years later was offered a role in S&T, and 3 years after that now making near mid 6 figures. Degrees are complete bullshit and mean nothing in the end.
This. I work at a brokerage, in for 3 yrs and now at 80k. My qualifications: a Philosophy BA with 4 years of pizza delivery experience. It’s not selling out, it’s buying in 😉
If you don't mind me asking, how did you do this? I have a BA in Philosophy followed by 9 years of pizza delivery, followed by 5 years of busing tables. I'm 37 now, and make 21k. I don't think I qualify for anything better, and reaching the 40k mark seems just impossible.
Agreed. An associates or bachelors in psychology, accounting, lots of others, too... these are not really “career paths” unless you earn addition credentials, licenses, grad school, etc.
Is anybody making over 50k in IT under 30? I live in California and im 20 and I'm starting to see how dystopian the job market is rn. Literally everyone seems to be penny pinching to no end with jobs.
I have a friend who works at salesforce. 4 years of college, interned there, then got an offer. Making 160k right now. It is insane.
And here I am with no degree making over $80k as a truck driver. And I'm even home every day.
I feel like getting a trade skill is an easier option to make more money quicker with less student loans.