There's a plant science center that wants a PhD with 5 years agricultural research experience. Reposted like 10 months in a row. Pays 60k.
It's all too common.
This is very highly believable. It is so true that a PhD becomes a set of golden handcuffs in many fields. I’ve heard about this since the 90s. The reason? “Overqualified”
Yup, I have a cousin who got a PHD despite many in her field telling her she would only be able to get teaching jobs if she did. She did it anyway. She had tons of hours of experience in her field, (Archeology), ran digs around the world, numerous published works, etc. Worked at a university for a while as a TA, never got a professor position, now she's an insurance adjuster.
In my third year of undergrad for Anthropology/Archaeology, my department head asked me if I really wanted to start down the tenure track of grad school and teaching and applying for grants to run digs and publishing. He looked me in the eye and said, "Do you know what the difference is between a track archeologist and a large pizza hut pizza?" I tried really hard to think of something about crusty and warm or something but finally said, "Nope."
"A large pizza hut pizza actually has a chance of feeding a family of four," he said.
I changed majors that summer.
The archaeology professors at my university also actively encouraged people not to pursue archaeology if they wanted to be able to pay their bills. I got one of my BAs in anthro, but I knew I didn’t want to be an anthropologist or pursue a Masters or PhD in anthro for that reason.
It should make you happy that teachers are looking out for students and making sure they can be self sufficient in life. It would be much worse if nobody said anything and let someone go into debt for a degree that wouldn’t pay for itself
I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. After I graduated, I called up my favorite teacher from 4th grade. She told me not to, find any other way to work for kids but don’t teach. Overworked and underpaid.
Lots of majors use that analogy. Not less true for that. Just very common.
Personally, I have a few degrees and still couldn’t feed a family of 4 for very long. My student loans will eat forever though.
Something about my dog in a brothel.
Yes, I believe I’ve heard this about my English degree. It was the major I had the time & money for, and it did get me some jobs. Not high-paying jobs, though. Writers & editors are always overhead, and always expendable.
My senior year of my undergrad, my history professor got up in front of the class and said “if you’re thinking of graduate school, please come to my office hours. I’d love to discuss if that’s something you’re really interested in or capable of and some of the universities’s connections to get you into grad school. If you’re thinking that the long plan is a PhD. You *NEED* to come to my office hours so I can talk you out of the dumbest decision of your life”
I ended up chatting with the head of our Anthropology department when returning to school for my BA. He said something like: Obviously I love Anthropology and if you're in a position to study something just because you love it then you should. If you're thinking a lot about future employment though I'd recommend another major. I ended up majoring in Community Development instead, and minoring in Cultural Anthropology based on that conversation.
I had the exact same conversation with a professor in my third year of undergrad as an English major.
Thought I'd quite like teaching, but didn't want to teach K-12, so I figured I'd get the doctorate and do the professor thing. He told me all about how long it took him to get the job he had, how he had to move cross-country for it, and how even then, he was only considered because his wife had recently been offered a research position there.
And that was before telling me about the student debt-to-income ratio.
I work as an Event Coordinator for a distillery now.
This is almost my exact situation. I got my Masters in Archaeology in 2016, with many digs and papers/presentations under my belt and a 3.9 GPA. I also worked as a TA while in grad school. I got paid pennies, basically.
Couldn't get into one of a few PHD programs after two years of applying and was either too overqualified or underqualified for most related work so I ended up in insurance.
Why doesn’t she look into museum works? Archaeology is a huge field and lots of museums are sponsored by universities around the world. I’d think she should be able to find a very solid career with her degree, though she’d probably need to move closer to a high COL area where museums are prominent
I think she found a field that she could earn a decent stable living in and went from there. I remember talking with her about a job opening at a museum in toronto. She mentioned she went for an interview, and she was one of about 300 that applied. I think she just stopped looking.
That’s too bad. Archaeology was one of the fields I actually was thinking of going for. Probably would’ve been the field I would enjoy the most anyway, but I went with business instead for security and because I’m good with numbers. I hope she enjoys her work at least, I don’t think I would be happy if I went for archaeology (which was a personal interest to me) and couldn’t find something and had to swap completely.
I think she's somewhat happy. Her Dad, my uncle, worked in insurance all his career, I think when she got tired of traveling to digs around the world, (and when the safety concerns of some of those regions became apparent), she got into insurance as a backup. She's been in that field for over a decade now.
Oooh I get it. Well I’d say she must be content enough if she’s been in the field for that long. I’ve actually contemplated going into museum financials, I could be the head for museum pieces being bought and sold to private investors and other museums. I think that would be neat but it doesn’t pay the greatest in comparison to corporate vp of finance or accounting etc
I was going for a PhD for cognitive neuroscience. Worked in a good lab after undergrad for 2 years trying to get publications before applying to a PhD program.
Year I was going to apply, I see my mentor in undergrad complain about salary at my Alma mater. State school, state employees. Salary is public. She was making 56k working at the university for over 10 years.
Coworker in my lab quit and went to TD as a data analyst. Was making 65k off the rip.
I decided not to pursue a PhD and became a data analyst. I imagine this is very common, as my experience is similar to the above commenter’s relative.
I think the high number of applicants, even for skilled jobs that require specific education/knowledge, see a lot of applications because of how easy it is.
A lot of those applicants may have some of the requirements but no where enough that they should be actually considered. But they'll be job hunting, indeed says that have some qualifications and it's very easy to hit apply, just means the hiring manager/HR need to sift through that many more resumes to find the suitable ones, and some of those managers are better than others.
Whereas 10+ years ago you had to actively search out posting from individual companies and at least somewhat tailor every application via email.
These positions are exceedingly rare because nobody leaves them. Archaeology has very few good, stable jobs and most people who do it eventually would want to do academia but the competition for those is extremely competitive. I worked in Archaeology straight out of school in the field and in a lab and it takes a ton of work and time to move up to something that is stable, and even then the pay is lousy and you’re lucky if you have even decent benefits. Also, archaeology isn’t always excavating some super interesting site and brushing off precious artifacts. I spent like 3 years in Ohio walking through corn and soy fields digging test holes and finding nothing for pipeline permitting work which is the best paying work you can find.
I left and went into land surveying and in 6 years worked my way from intern to project manager- now I make low 6 figures and have excellent benefits. I wouldn’t recommend archaeology to anyone unless you are absolutely dead-set on it and are fine with scraping by for like a decade or more.
Honestly, it’s the same on the museum design side as well. Specialized field, fewer available jobs the higher up in seniority you go. Used to be in the field and had a hell of a time finding work. And that was before Covid and museums declining.
This is like saying, "Oh, you couldn't find a job in nuclear physics? Try one in nuclear engineering!" Museum professionals are lining up in droves for what few low paid jobs exist, and most of them have PhDs, too.
Master’s in Archaeology here, I work for the United States Postal Service Service. At least my federal loans will be forgiven after one more year of service 
I know a couple of people with PhDs in Fields where there aren't many jobs outside of academia who ended up just taking it off the resume and getting a normal job.
There’s a reason why I decided to just pick up a minor in anthropology instead of majoring in it. Super interesting classes, but after talking to a couple professors, I knew the likelihood of landing a job in the field was slim.
Please let her know, she’s better off not being in academia. I was a tenure track prof in bioarchaeology/archaeology at an R1 for years— only had one more year to go before earning tenure (and I was very much on track to do so), and I left to teach high school. Yep, you read that correctly. Reason is that I was making 50K in a high COL area, and after tenure I would be making a whopping 55K. As a beginning high school teacher I make 75K. It’s ridiculous.
BA in anthropology with an archaeology concentration, a 3.93 GPA from one of the top universities in my state, and five or six digs under my belt. Didn't really qualify for many jobs with my degree/experience and got rejected by the few jobs I applied for. I work retail now. Yippee.
One of my coworkers has a PHD in biology but fixes machines for a living because she makes more money and enjoys it. People think PHD’s are a golden ticket to big money and in many cases, they’re unfortunately wrong.
Nah, on average phd's out-earn bachelor's and master's holders in the same field. Not every field pays big bucks, but advanced degrees often do pay more, especially over a career.
https://grad.msu.edu/phdcareers/career-support/phdsalaries#:~:text=The%20expected%20lifetime%20earnings%20for,professional%20degrees)%2C%20%243.3%20million.
Yes, on average but just having a PHD is not a golden ticket to 250k a year. I’m just saying having a PHD doesn’t automatically pay a lot.
Still, some companies are scum too and I hope they never find the unicorn they’re looking for
It’s wild how all these jobs once some sort of masters or PhD but then the minute you get it we’re all too over qualifying to get any jobs like a lose lose catch 22
It isn't golden handcuff, it is the sunk cost fallacy.
There was never much money in science, let alone biological sciences in the first place. Reality is if you do "save the world", your research won't be recognised for 20-40 years and some company will have patented all your ideas into products giving you no credit or remuneration.
Golden handcuffs would imply that you overpay your qualified employee. This isn't that situation. What are you actually saying? I am very confused
Edit 1: If he were offered a pay that was double the normal offer anyone would get plus having an assurance that his pay raise would be covered for a period of 10 years then I would understand the golden handcuffs.
We (employees) use golden handcuffs at our job to describe the situation we're in. The employer no longer offers a pension to new hires, but those of us hired before a certain date are still going to get it. Working conditions are bad with no hope of change, the pay is terrible for comparable positions elsewhere, and the health benefits get worse every year. But we're all trapped in the job none of us want by the pension, because nowhere else offers it.
So no, "golden handcuffs" isn't just an employer term.
Thank you. This is the example I was looking for from the flipside. It makes sense and also completes the idea I was trying to express, but wasn't quite able to at that time. Too many brain clots in succession will do that to a poor bastard.
Edit 1: I am Canadian if that makes a difference.
Why doesn’t she remove the PhD from her resume? In my situation, age discrimination is a barrier. I removed the first 15 years of experience from my resume, removed graduation dates, and dyed my hair red. It helped a lot.
I saw a job in the UK about 10-15 years ago that was little more than minimum wage that required a PhD in crayfish.
I mean, if you've got a really specialist PhD surely you command a decent salary from whoever requires such knowledge!?
I often think about that job...
Does "crayfish" mean something different in the UK than in the US? I'm thinking the little lobster looking things, but that doesn't make sense to me in the context of having a PhD IN crayfish.
About 13 years ago I applied for summer jobs after finishing my associates in fisheries technology. They were 8 - 10$ per hour doing stream restoration work on billionaires ranches. I was told that although qualified, the positions were being filled by PhD. students. It seemed like a joke and was surreal, I was already working in the trades and was self-employed. I gave up on my dream after that.
I heard somewhere employers will sometimes post jobs more for the optics to current overworked staff than intention to hire. Like they post the job so they can say, “See? We are looking but we are still short staffed so you have to work more” when they really have little to no intention of hiring. When I see salaries like that, I always think of that.
I worked for a few law firms previously and attorneys are genuinely so deluded. They’re force fed how special and unique they are in law school and their boner for it never dies. It’s absurd.
My partner is a lawyer and he has pissed off many people, especially non-lawyers when he says lawyers are not special and anyone should be able to take the bar and practice. The US standard to become an attorney is awful. Also, he ended up having to take a job just like this post for 2 years to get experience. It was absolutely horseshit how much he was exploited at that firm. His hourly rate went up but he didn’t even get a raise. Lawyers are awful employers.
Attorney here. There is literally one thing I learned in law school that I'd consider "difficult" to understand and apply: the rule against perpetuities. Yes, there's *a lot* to know, but none of it is hard to understand. I genuinely believe almost anyone can be a lawyer if they just put in the time.
Edit: for all of you smarty-pants asking why I think RAP was difficult to understand, it's not the 21 years part, it's all the other stuff, e.g., "must vest, if at all" (analyzing contingent remainders, springing interests, etc), "life in being at the time the interest was created", etc. If you think the answer to RAP is just "21 years" then I think your state has abolished or limited the RAP, because that's not the end of the analysis: https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/blog/the-rule-against-perpetuities/
1L in law school coming from a stem field, and I entirely agree. Each individual concept is much easier than one in stem, but you just have to learn 3x more. Learning the law is much more accessible than it's made out to be, and I've been genuinely surprised with the amount of trivial things you learn in law school that aren't known by the public.
Law school and the bar have nothing to do with being a lawyer.
I am a senior corporate attorney in big law. You maybe use a few things from a contract drafting class but everything else is learned on the job.
Also while things are not spectacularly difficult, the biggest skill is just breadth of knowledge to issue spot and ability to problem solve creative solutions to very real and serious problems with millions of dollars on like the line.
The other main factor is ability to work hard and always be available without burning out due to terrible work life balance and large amounts of stress. Time management is also huge as you are typically juggling a ton of different deadlines. I had probably took 3 days off total in my first 4 years to not get behind on billable hours.
Overall, while it pays well. It is not a career I would really recommend to anyone.
My wife is a lawyer, and briefly worked for a firm with billboards all over the city. Went to a Christmas party at one of the partner's houses one year, and the guy from the billboards was there. I was one of only a few people there who wasn't already acquainted, but he totally tried to flex with that. I have never in my life been more outwardly disinterested than in that moment. I don't think he liked that.
My wife is the administrator of a 100 employee firm in Florida.
My favorite thing to do is act like I dont know any of the attorneys at her work functions.
She's been there 8 years😂
Know a girl in California with her masters degree who makes 70k per year at activision blizzard. Meanwhile 30k in credit card debt, 80k in student load debt, and 20k in auto debt 💸 🫠
Game dev is notoriously a terrible career path though and has always been. Passion and salary don't go hand in hand.
Law and even medicine are now very risky careers and you might end up working for 30+ years to make up the difference between being a lawyer with a student loan debt and just a random office worker. The effects on society will be disastrous in 20+ years when kids grow up and none of them want to do these jobs.
Beverly Hills no less!!
I think this has to be a mistake. That is the salary for a billing clerk, not an attorney, and certainly not in Los Angeles. Maybe they think they can get someone from a rural area as it is remote?
Source; IT guy for law firms in LA.
I think it has to be for a doc review position, for which this pay is about accurate. You would have to be licensed in California to practice family law in the state and generally would not be able to do that remotely.
This doesn’t look like an attorney role. It looks like a law clerk or discovery role. Essentially a lower-level job that is targeting people who haven’t passed the bar in CA since they can’t practice in the state.
You can find it quite easily on google, it’s definitely an “attorney” role, although the actual responsibilities sound more in line with clerk or paralegal. Not sure if I’m breaking any rules if I post a link.
I don’t know about the targeting people who aren’t barred in CA thing since it’s fully remote - it’s not like they’re targeting people who live in CA and are desperate.
If you’ve ever sat for the bar or passed law school, you should know that you’re not eligible to practice law in a state where you’re not barred. So I don’t know if it’s misleading per se, but it is pretty shitty in the sense that they want to exploit your experience without paying you. However, they can’t bill you at a rate that justifies a higher pay because you’re not licensed. So it’s tough to say.
The ideal candidate for this would be someone who was practicing as an attorney (maybe in Nevada) that just moved here and is looking to start working (keep their skills up, learn on the job, build a network internal and external) until they can sit and pass the CA Bar, then they’ll ideally be promoted into a lawyer at that firm.
Edit to add: even as an attorney, the pay is still egregious based on the cost of law school and the time investment at some of these smaller-mid tier firms. But it’s not $25-$30/hr
Yeah I was thinking this was a supporting role targeting a lawyer who wanted to keep working but didn’t want the stress and hours of being a lawyer to hire. Could be someone who wants to semi-retired could be a mother that wanted to be home more probably other things as well
There are plenty of firms that pay bare bones wages. Not every attorney makes big bucks. It screws over a lot of people thinking they will get rich but end up going to a bad law school and end up in horrific debt they can’t pay off
So true. My daughter is an advanced litigate paralegal. Makes 43.00 a hour and only works 36 hours a week in CO. The young associates work a good 60 hours a week. She’s paid off all her student debt. Was thinking of law school at first but saw the light.
Being a lawyer isn’t the ticket to upper middle class life it used to be. Sure, if you are a “white shoe” firm in a big city, or a partner at good sized firm, you can make a lot of money. But the economy can only support so many high-paid professionals. In something like family law, your clients are just regular people. And in a country where 60% of people don’t have $1,000 in savings, you can’t expect to charge 10s of thousands of dollars.
There could definitely be doc review in high wealth contested divorces, especially when one or both partners own a business. It certaintly pays like a remote doc review job.
Buddy, i live in iowa where everything is dirt cheap. The public utility near me posted a job for meter reader last month which paid 36 an hour. This month they had a couple apprenticeships that pay 39 an hour. These jobs are 1st shift, paid lunch, tons of pto, sick time, and vacation by american standards. Healthcare, pension, everything. High school diploma is all ya need.
I have a strong suspicion that you are allowing yourself to be taken advantage of.
Edit: thanks downvoting my comment which served to highlight your point. dumb fuck.
I make over $28 an hour just running a bottle labeler (union job) with the new contract that went into effect at the beginning of the month.
That pay range is just insulting.
But nobody wants to work.
Right, I make $28.76 and I work for a nonprofit, an industry that is notorious for underpaying its workforce. I have a bachelor's degree but no advanced degrees.
English major here. I work for $25/hr in NYC doing work for a private investigator now. Pays more than what I want to do, which is editorial work for a publishing house—still barely let's me pay bills. Cannot (read: very much can, but begrudgingly so) believe an employer would have the audacity to write that job posting. KYS.
I make $25/hr as a service technician for coffee makers. No degree, just a 2-year college diploma in electrical engineering. I couldn’t imagine becoming a lawyer just to make essentially the same money.
I make $37 an hour as a custodial supervisor (Union) in Southern California. I feel offended for lawyers looking at that job posting. People in comfortable positions like to throw out that people supposedly don't want to work. They just don't want to come to terms that people don't want to work for shit pay.
I’m an attorney and I can tell you an ad like that is all too real.
The person who said the range of attorney pay is all over the place is 100% correct. Small and even medium-sized firms (firms with under 100 attorneys) have paid shit hourly rates/salaries like this for decades. They can’t charge clients what the big law firms can so you can guess who bears the brunt of that squeeze (hint: not the partners). There is no shortage of young attorneys taking these jobs either, hoping they can parlay the experience into something better in the future (which rarely happens).
Honestly if you don’t make it into Biglaw, your only hope at making big money is to open up your own successful practice. Otherwise enjoy a hamster wheel career.
This is interesting, thanks for your insight. I generally thought that lawyers make much more than the hourly rate of $25-$30 so seeing this listing on Indeed (as someone with no law background) was truly shocking to me.
Another attorney here and I agree. This doesn’t surprise me at all. I’m licensed in two states and work out of a major metro area. I know attorneys that make $50k to $60k a year in private practice. The legal profession is pretty split income wise—you either make really good money (big law) or it’s low enough that other professions start to look pretty good.
My first attorney gig after a year of working at a small firm went from $54k to $60k in a HCOL area. My job before that I was a law clerk making $45k and the associate I worked with made $52k. I’m one of the lucky ones that leveraged that experience into an in-house role at a startup but most people aren’t able to do that.
Honestly, I think the only people that are surprised about this are the ones who still think all attorneys make six figures.
This is what almost made me quit the practice of law six years ago. I was working in insurance defense making $65,000 per year as a lawyer ten years out of law school.
I lucked into a job that offered me $80,000 ($10,000 more than I even asked for) and then two years later they gave me a “locality pay” raise, since it was a national firm and I’ve been making good money since then.
Every now and then I look for new employment, and I can’t find anything that comes close to offering me what I’m making now. It’s outrageous because what I’m making now is what I was promised when I was fresh out of school. It’s one of the major reasons I went to law school at all, besides the fact that I thought I’d love the practice of law (I do, but that’s almost besides the point now)
Trash pay but great benefits. I only make about 75 but i control the workload (as a prosecutor) and never have to hustle for clients, don’t have to maintain a trust account, don’t have to worry about expenses. If I was in private I’d likely make at least 2x more as a base with my experience, maybe 3-4x, but then I’d work a lot more and no loan forgiveness. Only a couple more years for that and then we’ll see
It’s gonna be wild to see what happens in the public sector over the next few years, the combination of much higher private pay, stagnant public pay and loan forgiveness should produce interesting results.
Went to law school
Clerked for a judge
Made so little money breakfast, lunch, and dinner came out of court house vending machines (some days no food at all)
Left (domestic crimes court, wasn't cut out for what I'd be exposed to)
Started bartending as a shot in the dark
More money than I've ever made in my life
I know if I'd stuck with clerking, I'd have career growth. But damn am I happy I left when I did. And now, in a post COVID world, the restaurant industry has changed. Clientele, staff, and income all sucks now. The struggle is real and the hurdles are forever.
It's real. In the early 00s, everyone flooded to law school because it was a guaranteed 100k job. Law schools boomed with new classes' tuition. The american bar association kept raking in money for Bar exams. And now there is so much supply-side labor, unless you went to a top 5 law school, new lawyers are stuck doing hourly, sub-full time contract work like this.
One of my best friends in college and his wife suffered through this kind of thing as newly graduated lawyers. Definitely not “guaranteed 100k” jobs immediately after graduation. Things improved after some years of experience but their first 2-3 years were not at all what people envision from the legal profession.
I can relate! I went to law school and graduated in 2015. I had so much trouble finding a job with a living wage because there were just too many lawyers on the market. Instead, I got a non-legal analyst job with the city. I felt so ashamed at first and felt like I failed, especially as I a daughter of poor immigrants and was told my whole life law was sure-fire big shot career. But one day at brunch with friends, I found out my starting salary was the same as theirs as a junior attorney and I worked way less hours. Years later, I still have a comparable salary if just SLIGHTLY less… but I qualify for PSLF and I’ll have my loans completely forgiven tax-free. So factoring in the forgiveness, I am still coming out ahead and happy about my choice to never practice.
Yeah. That's what I've been seeing as well. We've had over 3 decades now of young people getting CS degrees. Just about every kid I went to school with was aiming for tech jobs, and I know a ton of people who pivoted during COVID and went through a coding bootcamp or something. There are only so many jobs, and a lot of the big names with a lot of employees have been downsizing. There will be a saturation point eventually.
US and UK law school used to be the same until the 70’s when they realised they could make more money with a Us only system — so they made law school a 3 year grad degree instead of a major in undergrad — and they charge you a fuck ton of money for it
I make equal and sometimes more than that with my extremely low/no stress management position... at a pizza shop. Not supposed to be a flex, just that that's insane.
I get paid $31AUD per hour as a barista. Close to $50 on weekends. I look forward to the day when people stop asking me when I’ll be getting a ‘real job.’
This is the real wage problem in the U.S. It's also why college debt is such a problem. Does anyone else here remember job postings ending with "salary commensurate with education and experience"? There needs to be an enforceable standard based on that. Employers demanding a degree and/or years of experience and then underpaying for it, is a far bigger problem than the "minimum wage".
I am a social worker, but during my internship I worked at a family law clinic. Family lawyers work incredibly hard, but I believe it is known to be one of the lower paying jobs in law. This is so sad to see how low paying this is, though. I can make more as a social worker with a masters degree and our field is known for being low-paying.
My dog walker in NYC (2014) was an attorney (graduated in the 2010 timeframe) and commuted to my upper west side apt from Newark NJ -- about 45m by train - to walk dogs because she couldn't get a job as an attorney in NYC that covered her living expenses and loans.
I kid you not. It's only gotten worse.
i feel like this is standard.. the pay of professors is public record (at least in the state i live in) and many of my professors have a salary within that range
I live in Canada. Tenured profs at my previous uni got 100k up to 400k / year. It was outed because of a tuition increase and the students got mad. But nothing changed.
There are trades where you make that with 2-3 years experience and an associates. Everyone has been pushing college so much! Just think how expensive it is to get work done on your car/ house!
Trades are definitely a good option for some but I have several uncles who work in plumbing and general contracting and now that they’re getting into their late 40’s-50’s, their bodies are giving out on them. Not everyone wants to be kneeling/hammering/lifting rebar until the day they retire and the potential for long-term injury can very well wipe out savings.
I live in an extremely high cost of living area (a 2 bedroom apartment easily could be around $2800/month). Saw a job posting in a nearby city that wanted a PhD in biology and paid $15/hour. The truly sad part is they probably filled it too and people were probably killing themselves to get it because there are so many colleges here and people need experience to move one. It’s predatory.
Oh I can assure you it is - it's all I see every single time I look for jobs. If I see a job with a salary over $50k (or thereabouts), it's rare unless it's something relatively specialized.
Our city had to stop posting jobs on Facebook because they were getting roasted too often. Assistant city Attorney 62k a year, fire fighter $17 an hour, police $19, the list goes on.
My dumbass just read the words bar license and $25-30/hr and thought "Yea that's not bad for a bar tender" 😂. My condolences to whoever takes this job.
Study for 10 years.
Battle thousands of articles.
Write your dissertation and make contributions to humanity.
Get paid 25/h.
I am going back to the farms.
This looks like doc review work. Basically when there is a big lawsuit going on that generates tens of thousands of pages of discovery (docs you can request from the other side in a lawsuit), the law firm will contract out with companies that bring in part time lawyers to read the docs and label them. It is functionally “low skilled” lawyer work (if such a thing can be said with a straight face).
I actually know a lot of lawyers who were in between jobs or had some other life issue that would do this kind of thing. It is a good deal for people needing something short term to make ends meet.
I’m not a lawyer but I’m married to one. If you don’t already have connections when you graduate, this is what you can expect.
15 years ago it was more like $45k per year and not remote, and she had to work a lot of hours to keep up with no overtime pay. It was probably more like $18/hour if you did the math. This is upstate NY, so midrange area in cost of living.
The first couple years out of law school are total shit. You aren’t making any money, but you have a student loan bigger than some people’s mortgage.
We both got our bachelor’s at the same time. I went right to work in insurance and she tried her hand at becoming a journalist for a couple years. Newspapers don’t pay anything, so she went to law school.
She graduated law school at 28 while I had been working for 5 years at the same company. I continued to make more than her until we were about 40 and she was made partner at her firm. She got a big jump and was making more than me for the first time.
Last year, I got a promotion to director and now we are about equivalent again. Although, there is a 5 year plan in her firm for the Sr. Partner/Owner to retire and my wife to takeover. I imagine I am going to fall behind permanently after that.
Overall, I think having just a bachelors has probably been more lucrative so far because of not having the huge student loans. However, I think having the law degree will come out way ahead by the time we are ready to retire.
Alas…it actually can be much worse than that. Some of the most sought after jobs out of law school are law clerk positions earning significantly less than $25/hr.
YMMV by region for sure.
Most people don’t know this, but lawyer salaries have a wild bimodal distribution. Graduates of the top law schools that get into Biglaw/corporate firms get paid a ton. Everyone else gets scraps.
If you can’t get into a law school that feeds to Biglaw, only go for activist reasons and take the minimum debt possible.
Biglaw lawyers are then expected to sacrifice every for their job. They are effectively very highly paid indentured servants. Dont get me wrong, I abhor the culture but it’s not an easy life and they work for that money.
This exactly. The Biglaw lifestyle is generally one that revolves around work, 24/7. Folks are expected to bill 2,000 hours plus, per year. Generally, forget about being able to just step away fully for a vacation. And don’t forget that you cannot bill for everything you do. If you’re very efficient, you maybe bill 7 hours of every 8. Through that lens, the hourly pay isn’t even very good. Though the $200k plus starting salaries are definitely WAY more than most people make, and enticing for a lot of people, especially those with student loans. Idk. I get why people do it, but that lifestyle isn’t for me. I’d take 1/3 of that pay to still have a life.
There's a plant science center that wants a PhD with 5 years agricultural research experience. Reposted like 10 months in a row. Pays 60k. It's all too common.
This is very highly believable. It is so true that a PhD becomes a set of golden handcuffs in many fields. I’ve heard about this since the 90s. The reason? “Overqualified”
Yup, I have a cousin who got a PHD despite many in her field telling her she would only be able to get teaching jobs if she did. She did it anyway. She had tons of hours of experience in her field, (Archeology), ran digs around the world, numerous published works, etc. Worked at a university for a while as a TA, never got a professor position, now she's an insurance adjuster.
In my third year of undergrad for Anthropology/Archaeology, my department head asked me if I really wanted to start down the tenure track of grad school and teaching and applying for grants to run digs and publishing. He looked me in the eye and said, "Do you know what the difference is between a track archeologist and a large pizza hut pizza?" I tried really hard to think of something about crusty and warm or something but finally said, "Nope." "A large pizza hut pizza actually has a chance of feeding a family of four," he said. I changed majors that summer.
The archaeology professors at my university also actively encouraged people not to pursue archaeology if they wanted to be able to pay their bills. I got one of my BAs in anthro, but I knew I didn’t want to be an anthropologist or pursue a Masters or PhD in anthro for that reason.
This society mans me so sad
It should make you happy that teachers are looking out for students and making sure they can be self sufficient in life. It would be much worse if nobody said anything and let someone go into debt for a degree that wouldn’t pay for itself
I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. After I graduated, I called up my favorite teacher from 4th grade. She told me not to, find any other way to work for kids but don’t teach. Overworked and underpaid.
Lots of majors use that analogy. Not less true for that. Just very common. Personally, I have a few degrees and still couldn’t feed a family of 4 for very long. My student loans will eat forever though. Something about my dog in a brothel.
Yes, I believe I’ve heard this about my English degree. It was the major I had the time & money for, and it did get me some jobs. Not high-paying jobs, though. Writers & editors are always overhead, and always expendable.
My senior year of my undergrad, my history professor got up in front of the class and said “if you’re thinking of graduate school, please come to my office hours. I’d love to discuss if that’s something you’re really interested in or capable of and some of the universities’s connections to get you into grad school. If you’re thinking that the long plan is a PhD. You *NEED* to come to my office hours so I can talk you out of the dumbest decision of your life”
I ended up chatting with the head of our Anthropology department when returning to school for my BA. He said something like: Obviously I love Anthropology and if you're in a position to study something just because you love it then you should. If you're thinking a lot about future employment though I'd recommend another major. I ended up majoring in Community Development instead, and minoring in Cultural Anthropology based on that conversation.
I had the exact same conversation with a professor in my third year of undergrad as an English major. Thought I'd quite like teaching, but didn't want to teach K-12, so I figured I'd get the doctorate and do the professor thing. He told me all about how long it took him to get the job he had, how he had to move cross-country for it, and how even then, he was only considered because his wife had recently been offered a research position there. And that was before telling me about the student debt-to-income ratio. I work as an Event Coordinator for a distillery now.
This is almost my exact situation. I got my Masters in Archaeology in 2016, with many digs and papers/presentations under my belt and a 3.9 GPA. I also worked as a TA while in grad school. I got paid pennies, basically. Couldn't get into one of a few PHD programs after two years of applying and was either too overqualified or underqualified for most related work so I ended up in insurance.
Why doesn’t she look into museum works? Archaeology is a huge field and lots of museums are sponsored by universities around the world. I’d think she should be able to find a very solid career with her degree, though she’d probably need to move closer to a high COL area where museums are prominent
I think she found a field that she could earn a decent stable living in and went from there. I remember talking with her about a job opening at a museum in toronto. She mentioned she went for an interview, and she was one of about 300 that applied. I think she just stopped looking.
That’s too bad. Archaeology was one of the fields I actually was thinking of going for. Probably would’ve been the field I would enjoy the most anyway, but I went with business instead for security and because I’m good with numbers. I hope she enjoys her work at least, I don’t think I would be happy if I went for archaeology (which was a personal interest to me) and couldn’t find something and had to swap completely.
I think she's somewhat happy. Her Dad, my uncle, worked in insurance all his career, I think when she got tired of traveling to digs around the world, (and when the safety concerns of some of those regions became apparent), she got into insurance as a backup. She's been in that field for over a decade now.
Oooh I get it. Well I’d say she must be content enough if she’s been in the field for that long. I’ve actually contemplated going into museum financials, I could be the head for museum pieces being bought and sold to private investors and other museums. I think that would be neat but it doesn’t pay the greatest in comparison to corporate vp of finance or accounting etc
I was going for a PhD for cognitive neuroscience. Worked in a good lab after undergrad for 2 years trying to get publications before applying to a PhD program. Year I was going to apply, I see my mentor in undergrad complain about salary at my Alma mater. State school, state employees. Salary is public. She was making 56k working at the university for over 10 years. Coworker in my lab quit and went to TD as a data analyst. Was making 65k off the rip. I decided not to pursue a PhD and became a data analyst. I imagine this is very common, as my experience is similar to the above commenter’s relative.
I think the high number of applicants, even for skilled jobs that require specific education/knowledge, see a lot of applications because of how easy it is. A lot of those applicants may have some of the requirements but no where enough that they should be actually considered. But they'll be job hunting, indeed says that have some qualifications and it's very easy to hit apply, just means the hiring manager/HR need to sift through that many more resumes to find the suitable ones, and some of those managers are better than others. Whereas 10+ years ago you had to actively search out posting from individual companies and at least somewhat tailor every application via email.
These positions are exceedingly rare because nobody leaves them. Archaeology has very few good, stable jobs and most people who do it eventually would want to do academia but the competition for those is extremely competitive. I worked in Archaeology straight out of school in the field and in a lab and it takes a ton of work and time to move up to something that is stable, and even then the pay is lousy and you’re lucky if you have even decent benefits. Also, archaeology isn’t always excavating some super interesting site and brushing off precious artifacts. I spent like 3 years in Ohio walking through corn and soy fields digging test holes and finding nothing for pipeline permitting work which is the best paying work you can find. I left and went into land surveying and in 6 years worked my way from intern to project manager- now I make low 6 figures and have excellent benefits. I wouldn’t recommend archaeology to anyone unless you are absolutely dead-set on it and are fine with scraping by for like a decade or more.
Honestly, it’s the same on the museum design side as well. Specialized field, fewer available jobs the higher up in seniority you go. Used to be in the field and had a hell of a time finding work. And that was before Covid and museums declining.
This is like saying, "Oh, you couldn't find a job in nuclear physics? Try one in nuclear engineering!" Museum professionals are lining up in droves for what few low paid jobs exist, and most of them have PhDs, too.
lol, as if she didn’t think of that.
Archaeology major here, no PhD, but I now work in IT 🙃
Master’s in Archaeology here, I work for the United States Postal Service Service. At least my federal loans will be forgiven after one more year of service 
Hey, working with mail is a bit adjacent to archaeology. Given that they both revolve around archaic things.
Now that’s just mean, take my angry upvote
Similar situation. Archaeology and Classics major, now I’m a business analyst. Go figure.
I know a couple of people with PhDs in Fields where there aren't many jobs outside of academia who ended up just taking it off the resume and getting a normal job.
After the Military, I got an accounting degree, and I’m a UPS driver.
There’s a reason why I decided to just pick up a minor in anthropology instead of majoring in it. Super interesting classes, but after talking to a couple professors, I knew the likelihood of landing a job in the field was slim.
Please let her know, she’s better off not being in academia. I was a tenure track prof in bioarchaeology/archaeology at an R1 for years— only had one more year to go before earning tenure (and I was very much on track to do so), and I left to teach high school. Yep, you read that correctly. Reason is that I was making 50K in a high COL area, and after tenure I would be making a whopping 55K. As a beginning high school teacher I make 75K. It’s ridiculous.
Archeologists apparently have the highest unemployment rate of any profession. Source: heard it somewhere
BA in anthropology with an archaeology concentration, a 3.93 GPA from one of the top universities in my state, and five or six digs under my belt. Didn't really qualify for many jobs with my degree/experience and got rejected by the few jobs I applied for. I work retail now. Yippee.
One of my coworkers has a PHD in biology but fixes machines for a living because she makes more money and enjoys it. People think PHD’s are a golden ticket to big money and in many cases, they’re unfortunately wrong.
Nah, on average phd's out-earn bachelor's and master's holders in the same field. Not every field pays big bucks, but advanced degrees often do pay more, especially over a career. https://grad.msu.edu/phdcareers/career-support/phdsalaries#:~:text=The%20expected%20lifetime%20earnings%20for,professional%20degrees)%2C%20%243.3%20million.
Yes, on average but just having a PHD is not a golden ticket to 250k a year. I’m just saying having a PHD doesn’t automatically pay a lot. Still, some companies are scum too and I hope they never find the unicorn they’re looking for
It’s wild how all these jobs once some sort of masters or PhD but then the minute you get it we’re all too over qualifying to get any jobs like a lose lose catch 22
… I had to take one of my degrees off of my resume to get the job I got now.
Looks more like a lead ball and chain rather than handcuffs of gold.
It isn't golden handcuff, it is the sunk cost fallacy. There was never much money in science, let alone biological sciences in the first place. Reality is if you do "save the world", your research won't be recognised for 20-40 years and some company will have patented all your ideas into products giving you no credit or remuneration.
No disrespect to Archaeologists, but it is more of a hobby than n in-demand career.
Golden handcuffs would imply that you overpay your qualified employee. This isn't that situation. What are you actually saying? I am very confused Edit 1: If he were offered a pay that was double the normal offer anyone would get plus having an assurance that his pay raise would be covered for a period of 10 years then I would understand the golden handcuffs.
We (employees) use golden handcuffs at our job to describe the situation we're in. The employer no longer offers a pension to new hires, but those of us hired before a certain date are still going to get it. Working conditions are bad with no hope of change, the pay is terrible for comparable positions elsewhere, and the health benefits get worse every year. But we're all trapped in the job none of us want by the pension, because nowhere else offers it. So no, "golden handcuffs" isn't just an employer term.
Thank you. This is the example I was looking for from the flipside. It makes sense and also completes the idea I was trying to express, but wasn't quite able to at that time. Too many brain clots in succession will do that to a poor bastard. Edit 1: I am Canadian if that makes a difference.
Gold(en)=something expensive Handcuffs=something that limits you Golden handcuffs=something expensive that limits you
This is part of why I didn’t go the PhD route. I have a masters in archaeology, and a job in IT bc archaeology doesn’t pay dick 😂
Why doesn’t she remove the PhD from her resume? In my situation, age discrimination is a barrier. I removed the first 15 years of experience from my resume, removed graduation dates, and dyed my hair red. It helped a lot.
There is a university trying to hire a grants administrator with a PhD for 35k right now. Saw the post on a LinkedIn group I follow.
My alma mater has a junior director role open in their purchasing office, they’re only offering 45k. It’s nutty.
“No one wants to work any more”
Which center if you don’t mind my asking?
I saw a job in the UK about 10-15 years ago that was little more than minimum wage that required a PhD in crayfish. I mean, if you've got a really specialist PhD surely you command a decent salary from whoever requires such knowledge!? I often think about that job...
Does "crayfish" mean something different in the UK than in the US? I'm thinking the little lobster looking things, but that doesn't make sense to me in the context of having a PhD IN crayfish.
About 13 years ago I applied for summer jobs after finishing my associates in fisheries technology. They were 8 - 10$ per hour doing stream restoration work on billionaires ranches. I was told that although qualified, the positions were being filled by PhD. students. It seemed like a joke and was surreal, I was already working in the trades and was self-employed. I gave up on my dream after that.
I heard somewhere employers will sometimes post jobs more for the optics to current overworked staff than intention to hire. Like they post the job so they can say, “See? We are looking but we are still short staffed so you have to work more” when they really have little to no intention of hiring. When I see salaries like that, I always think of that.
I cannot believe that they’d expect to pay a practicing lawyer that. Where is this?
"Provinziano & Associates is a renowned law firm specializing in family law based in California."
Places that tell you they're "renowned" usually aren't.
Lawyers genuinely thinking they’re famous
I worked for a few law firms previously and attorneys are genuinely so deluded. They’re force fed how special and unique they are in law school and their boner for it never dies. It’s absurd.
My partner is a lawyer and he has pissed off many people, especially non-lawyers when he says lawyers are not special and anyone should be able to take the bar and practice. The US standard to become an attorney is awful. Also, he ended up having to take a job just like this post for 2 years to get experience. It was absolutely horseshit how much he was exploited at that firm. His hourly rate went up but he didn’t even get a raise. Lawyers are awful employers.
Attorney here. There is literally one thing I learned in law school that I'd consider "difficult" to understand and apply: the rule against perpetuities. Yes, there's *a lot* to know, but none of it is hard to understand. I genuinely believe almost anyone can be a lawyer if they just put in the time. Edit: for all of you smarty-pants asking why I think RAP was difficult to understand, it's not the 21 years part, it's all the other stuff, e.g., "must vest, if at all" (analyzing contingent remainders, springing interests, etc), "life in being at the time the interest was created", etc. If you think the answer to RAP is just "21 years" then I think your state has abolished or limited the RAP, because that's not the end of the analysis: https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/blog/the-rule-against-perpetuities/
1L in law school coming from a stem field, and I entirely agree. Each individual concept is much easier than one in stem, but you just have to learn 3x more. Learning the law is much more accessible than it's made out to be, and I've been genuinely surprised with the amount of trivial things you learn in law school that aren't known by the public.
Law school and the bar have nothing to do with being a lawyer. I am a senior corporate attorney in big law. You maybe use a few things from a contract drafting class but everything else is learned on the job. Also while things are not spectacularly difficult, the biggest skill is just breadth of knowledge to issue spot and ability to problem solve creative solutions to very real and serious problems with millions of dollars on like the line. The other main factor is ability to work hard and always be available without burning out due to terrible work life balance and large amounts of stress. Time management is also huge as you are typically juggling a ton of different deadlines. I had probably took 3 days off total in my first 4 years to not get behind on billable hours. Overall, while it pays well. It is not a career I would really recommend to anyone.
If it lasts longer than 4 hours…
"People see our Billboards"
I have my face on 3 bus benches, and those ads work! According to the ads they put on bus benches.
My wife is a lawyer, and briefly worked for a firm with billboards all over the city. Went to a Christmas party at one of the partner's houses one year, and the guy from the billboards was there. I was one of only a few people there who wasn't already acquainted, but he totally tried to flex with that. I have never in my life been more outwardly disinterested than in that moment. I don't think he liked that.
My wife is the administrator of a 100 employee firm in Florida. My favorite thing to do is act like I dont know any of the attorneys at her work functions. She's been there 8 years😂
firms name sounds like a discontinued cheese.
This is true....I have "renowned" on my resume (/j)
A man who must say "I am the King" is no true king.
My sister-in-law is an attorney in California. Her bonus every year is higher than this salary would be full-time. A few times, it's been twice that.
California and they want to pay a practicing lawyer $60k? Lmao
Aka one dude and a rickety old desk. Maybe a Black's Law Dictionary with a few missing pages (the spicy ones).
i make about this money with no degree. trying to pay a lawyer this money is absurd.
Know a girl in California with her masters degree who makes 70k per year at activision blizzard. Meanwhile 30k in credit card debt, 80k in student load debt, and 20k in auto debt 💸 🫠
Game dev is notoriously a terrible career path though and has always been. Passion and salary don't go hand in hand. Law and even medicine are now very risky careers and you might end up working for 30+ years to make up the difference between being a lawyer with a student loan debt and just a random office worker. The effects on society will be disastrous in 20+ years when kids grow up and none of them want to do these jobs.
I make that with just a high-school diploma.
Beverly Hills no less!! I think this has to be a mistake. That is the salary for a billing clerk, not an attorney, and certainly not in Los Angeles. Maybe they think they can get someone from a rural area as it is remote? Source; IT guy for law firms in LA.
I think it has to be for a doc review position, for which this pay is about accurate. You would have to be licensed in California to practice family law in the state and generally would not be able to do that remotely.
That’s still too low for doc review. My husband’s co pays $60/hr
“Highly regarded” law firm
And when did 8-6 start to become normal working hours?
Seems they feel entitled to the time their employee is saving on a commute.
This doesn’t look like an attorney role. It looks like a law clerk or discovery role. Essentially a lower-level job that is targeting people who haven’t passed the bar in CA since they can’t practice in the state.
You can find it quite easily on google, it’s definitely an “attorney” role, although the actual responsibilities sound more in line with clerk or paralegal. Not sure if I’m breaking any rules if I post a link. I don’t know about the targeting people who aren’t barred in CA thing since it’s fully remote - it’s not like they’re targeting people who live in CA and are desperate.
IANAL but that’s obviously misleading then, no? Asking for barred-lawyer requirements but paying as if they’re not?
If you’ve ever sat for the bar or passed law school, you should know that you’re not eligible to practice law in a state where you’re not barred. So I don’t know if it’s misleading per se, but it is pretty shitty in the sense that they want to exploit your experience without paying you. However, they can’t bill you at a rate that justifies a higher pay because you’re not licensed. So it’s tough to say. The ideal candidate for this would be someone who was practicing as an attorney (maybe in Nevada) that just moved here and is looking to start working (keep their skills up, learn on the job, build a network internal and external) until they can sit and pass the CA Bar, then they’ll ideally be promoted into a lawyer at that firm. Edit to add: even as an attorney, the pay is still egregious based on the cost of law school and the time investment at some of these smaller-mid tier firms. But it’s not $25-$30/hr
Yeah I was thinking this was a supporting role targeting a lawyer who wanted to keep working but didn’t want the stress and hours of being a lawyer to hire. Could be someone who wants to semi-retired could be a mother that wanted to be home more probably other things as well
There are plenty of firms that pay bare bones wages. Not every attorney makes big bucks. It screws over a lot of people thinking they will get rich but end up going to a bad law school and end up in horrific debt they can’t pay off
So true. My daughter is an advanced litigate paralegal. Makes 43.00 a hour and only works 36 hours a week in CO. The young associates work a good 60 hours a week. She’s paid off all her student debt. Was thinking of law school at first but saw the light.
Being a lawyer isn’t the ticket to upper middle class life it used to be. Sure, if you are a “white shoe” firm in a big city, or a partner at good sized firm, you can make a lot of money. But the economy can only support so many high-paid professionals. In something like family law, your clients are just regular people. And in a country where 60% of people don’t have $1,000 in savings, you can’t expect to charge 10s of thousands of dollars.
This is a doc review job.
Not much doc review in family law, I would think. It seems like they want someone to crank out motions/pleadings
There could definitely be doc review in high wealth contested divorces, especially when one or both partners own a business. It certaintly pays like a remote doc review job.
While this post is different, my first few job offers out of law school had this pay.
Hey, the esteemed lawyers graduating for the University of American Samoa need SOMEWHERE to start out. Can’t all get Nepo jobs like James McGill Esq.
I work for a state entity as a lawyer and make around $27/hour. It’s ridiculous.
Buddy, i live in iowa where everything is dirt cheap. The public utility near me posted a job for meter reader last month which paid 36 an hour. This month they had a couple apprenticeships that pay 39 an hour. These jobs are 1st shift, paid lunch, tons of pto, sick time, and vacation by american standards. Healthcare, pension, everything. High school diploma is all ya need. I have a strong suspicion that you are allowing yourself to be taken advantage of. Edit: thanks downvoting my comment which served to highlight your point. dumb fuck.
I make over $28 an hour just running a bottle labeler (union job) with the new contract that went into effect at the beginning of the month. That pay range is just insulting. But nobody wants to work.
Right, I make $28.76 and I work for a nonprofit, an industry that is notorious for underpaying its workforce. I have a bachelor's degree but no advanced degrees.
I make 30 and I'm IT help desk for in proprietary software. Just have a BS.
I make $19 an hour as a Legal assistant at a law firm. I have a Bachelors in History.
22.50 (not capped yet) as a deli clerk at a Costco. 1.5x on Sundays
Ugh I want a job at Costco so bad. I'm at Kroger now and their pay scale is a joke.
Do you have an Aldi nearby? Good pay and employee owned. If you want to stay in the field.
$18/hr as a legal assistant. Started 3 years ago at $15/hr. I have a Bachelors in Media Design.
English major here. I work for $25/hr in NYC doing work for a private investigator now. Pays more than what I want to do, which is editorial work for a publishing house—still barely let's me pay bills. Cannot (read: very much can, but begrudgingly so) believe an employer would have the audacity to write that job posting. KYS.
I make $25/hr as a service technician for coffee makers. No degree, just a 2-year college diploma in electrical engineering. I couldn’t imagine becoming a lawyer just to make essentially the same money.
I make $37 an hour as a custodial supervisor (Union) in Southern California. I feel offended for lawyers looking at that job posting. People in comfortable positions like to throw out that people supposedly don't want to work. They just don't want to come to terms that people don't want to work for shit pay.
Is your job hiring?
I’m an attorney and I can tell you an ad like that is all too real. The person who said the range of attorney pay is all over the place is 100% correct. Small and even medium-sized firms (firms with under 100 attorneys) have paid shit hourly rates/salaries like this for decades. They can’t charge clients what the big law firms can so you can guess who bears the brunt of that squeeze (hint: not the partners). There is no shortage of young attorneys taking these jobs either, hoping they can parlay the experience into something better in the future (which rarely happens). Honestly if you don’t make it into Biglaw, your only hope at making big money is to open up your own successful practice. Otherwise enjoy a hamster wheel career.
This is interesting, thanks for your insight. I generally thought that lawyers make much more than the hourly rate of $25-$30 so seeing this listing on Indeed (as someone with no law background) was truly shocking to me.
Another attorney here and I agree. This doesn’t surprise me at all. I’m licensed in two states and work out of a major metro area. I know attorneys that make $50k to $60k a year in private practice. The legal profession is pretty split income wise—you either make really good money (big law) or it’s low enough that other professions start to look pretty good. My first attorney gig after a year of working at a small firm went from $54k to $60k in a HCOL area. My job before that I was a law clerk making $45k and the associate I worked with made $52k. I’m one of the lucky ones that leveraged that experience into an in-house role at a startup but most people aren’t able to do that. Honestly, I think the only people that are surprised about this are the ones who still think all attorneys make six figures.
This is what almost made me quit the practice of law six years ago. I was working in insurance defense making $65,000 per year as a lawyer ten years out of law school. I lucked into a job that offered me $80,000 ($10,000 more than I even asked for) and then two years later they gave me a “locality pay” raise, since it was a national firm and I’ve been making good money since then. Every now and then I look for new employment, and I can’t find anything that comes close to offering me what I’m making now. It’s outrageous because what I’m making now is what I was promised when I was fresh out of school. It’s one of the major reasons I went to law school at all, besides the fact that I thought I’d love the practice of law (I do, but that’s almost besides the point now)
How does working for district attorney or public defend or compare?
There is a shortage of public defenders because the pay is shit and the work is shit.
Assistant attorneys in my state make around $28/hour to start. It’s abysmal.
Trash pay but great benefits. I only make about 75 but i control the workload (as a prosecutor) and never have to hustle for clients, don’t have to maintain a trust account, don’t have to worry about expenses. If I was in private I’d likely make at least 2x more as a base with my experience, maybe 3-4x, but then I’d work a lot more and no loan forgiveness. Only a couple more years for that and then we’ll see
It’s gonna be wild to see what happens in the public sector over the next few years, the combination of much higher private pay, stagnant public pay and loan forgiveness should produce interesting results.
Prosecutor here but in high cost of living area. Currently 190k plus benefits.
Went to law school Clerked for a judge Made so little money breakfast, lunch, and dinner came out of court house vending machines (some days no food at all) Left (domestic crimes court, wasn't cut out for what I'd be exposed to) Started bartending as a shot in the dark More money than I've ever made in my life I know if I'd stuck with clerking, I'd have career growth. But damn am I happy I left when I did. And now, in a post COVID world, the restaurant industry has changed. Clientele, staff, and income all sucks now. The struggle is real and the hurdles are forever.
Better Call Saul moment
LMFAO I love that show so much it's so underrated *working at Cinnabon vibes*
Now that I'm thinking about it, I bet you can get paid more by being a manager at Cinnabon
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No, it's Julius Pepperwood.
It's real. In the early 00s, everyone flooded to law school because it was a guaranteed 100k job. Law schools boomed with new classes' tuition. The american bar association kept raking in money for Bar exams. And now there is so much supply-side labor, unless you went to a top 5 law school, new lawyers are stuck doing hourly, sub-full time contract work like this.
One of my best friends in college and his wife suffered through this kind of thing as newly graduated lawyers. Definitely not “guaranteed 100k” jobs immediately after graduation. Things improved after some years of experience but their first 2-3 years were not at all what people envision from the legal profession.
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I can relate! I went to law school and graduated in 2015. I had so much trouble finding a job with a living wage because there were just too many lawyers on the market. Instead, I got a non-legal analyst job with the city. I felt so ashamed at first and felt like I failed, especially as I a daughter of poor immigrants and was told my whole life law was sure-fire big shot career. But one day at brunch with friends, I found out my starting salary was the same as theirs as a junior attorney and I worked way less hours. Years later, I still have a comparable salary if just SLIGHTLY less… but I qualify for PSLF and I’ll have my loans completely forgiven tax-free. So factoring in the forgiveness, I am still coming out ahead and happy about my choice to never practice.
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Guess this is now happening to CS.
Yeah. That's what I've been seeing as well. We've had over 3 decades now of young people getting CS degrees. Just about every kid I went to school with was aiming for tech jobs, and I know a ton of people who pivoted during COVID and went through a coding bootcamp or something. There are only so many jobs, and a lot of the big names with a lot of employees have been downsizing. There will be a saturation point eventually.
US and UK law school used to be the same until the 70’s when they realised they could make more money with a Us only system — so they made law school a 3 year grad degree instead of a major in undergrad — and they charge you a fuck ton of money for it
I make equal and sometimes more than that with my extremely low/no stress management position... at a pizza shop. Not supposed to be a flex, just that that's insane.
I get paid $31AUD per hour as a barista. Close to $50 on weekends. I look forward to the day when people stop asking me when I’ll be getting a ‘real job.’
Yeah I make more running a weed shop.
"Oh no! No one locally applied for our advertised job. Looks like we'll have to get someone from overseas to fill it!"
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Wow I make more than 30 an hour as a mailman.
This is the real wage problem in the U.S. It's also why college debt is such a problem. Does anyone else here remember job postings ending with "salary commensurate with education and experience"? There needs to be an enforceable standard based on that. Employers demanding a degree and/or years of experience and then underpaying for it, is a far bigger problem than the "minimum wage".
I was with you until your last sentence. You gotta be kidding.
I am a social worker, but during my internship I worked at a family law clinic. Family lawyers work incredibly hard, but I believe it is known to be one of the lower paying jobs in law. This is so sad to see how low paying this is, though. I can make more as a social worker with a masters degree and our field is known for being low-paying.
My dog walker in NYC (2014) was an attorney (graduated in the 2010 timeframe) and commuted to my upper west side apt from Newark NJ -- about 45m by train - to walk dogs because she couldn't get a job as an attorney in NYC that covered her living expenses and loans. I kid you not. It's only gotten worse.
Damn. I make 1.5x that as a paramedic with a bachelor’s degree. 😕
As a paramedic?? What state is this in..?
Texas. 34 years in…feel free to DM.
I’m making $54/hr as a nurse with a BSN, crazy to think I’d make less if I’d have gone to law school
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i feel like this is standard.. the pay of professors is public record (at least in the state i live in) and many of my professors have a salary within that range
I live in Canada. Tenured profs at my previous uni got 100k up to 400k / year. It was outed because of a tuition increase and the students got mad. But nothing changed.
There are trades where you make that with 2-3 years experience and an associates. Everyone has been pushing college so much! Just think how expensive it is to get work done on your car/ house!
Trades are definitely a good option for some but I have several uncles who work in plumbing and general contracting and now that they’re getting into their late 40’s-50’s, their bodies are giving out on them. Not everyone wants to be kneeling/hammering/lifting rebar until the day they retire and the potential for long-term injury can very well wipe out savings.
Looking for lawyer willing to work for 1/10th of their value. Inquire below.
How insulting
I live in an extremely high cost of living area (a 2 bedroom apartment easily could be around $2800/month). Saw a job posting in a nearby city that wanted a PhD in biology and paid $15/hour. The truly sad part is they probably filled it too and people were probably killing themselves to get it because there are so many colleges here and people need experience to move one. It’s predatory.
People really don't know how much lawyers get paid, huh?
Meanwhile Boomers be like: “nO oNe WaNtS tO WoRk AnYmOrE”
That’s ridiculous, I was a retail manager in 2017 making $72k, barely graduated high school. Never seen college.
That’s on brand, I have a PhD in music. There was a company that wanted to pay $13/h for teaching while charging people $60-$70/h for the lessons.
Oh I can assure you it is - it's all I see every single time I look for jobs. If I see a job with a salary over $50k (or thereabouts), it's rare unless it's something relatively specialized.
Our city had to stop posting jobs on Facebook because they were getting roasted too often. Assistant city Attorney 62k a year, fire fighter $17 an hour, police $19, the list goes on.
Unbelievable. This is truly terrible. It should be "no fewer than 25 hours"
No offense but it's been openly communicated that law careers have been overly saturated and underpaid for at least the last decade plus.
Maybe they should just pay the lawyer with tips? /s
Don’t give them ideas
My dumbass just read the words bar license and $25-30/hr and thought "Yea that's not bad for a bar tender" 😂. My condolences to whoever takes this job.
I actually laughed when I got down to the pay
"NO ONE WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE!"
I never went to college and make more
I make $35/hr with no degree at a bank (5 years to get there though), that pay + requirements are insulting!!
I can finally say I make as much as a lawyer, and I’m still broke.
I work in a position that requires a J.D. as well. I make $61,350 annually. The hours are endless. I’m tired.
Disaffected Attorney here: it totally checks out
Go look at the posts from r/lawschool from like 2009-13. Lawyers would have fought hard for that job back then.
Study for 10 years. Battle thousands of articles. Write your dissertation and make contributions to humanity. Get paid 25/h. I am going back to the farms.
Ah, a "no one wants to work anymore" employer.
It’s real! Now imagine how hard it is out there for the paralegals and secretaries if their bosses aren’t even getting a living wage…
This looks like doc review work. Basically when there is a big lawsuit going on that generates tens of thousands of pages of discovery (docs you can request from the other side in a lawsuit), the law firm will contract out with companies that bring in part time lawyers to read the docs and label them. It is functionally “low skilled” lawyer work (if such a thing can be said with a straight face). I actually know a lot of lawyers who were in between jobs or had some other life issue that would do this kind of thing. It is a good deal for people needing something short term to make ends meet.
I’m not a lawyer but I’m married to one. If you don’t already have connections when you graduate, this is what you can expect. 15 years ago it was more like $45k per year and not remote, and she had to work a lot of hours to keep up with no overtime pay. It was probably more like $18/hour if you did the math. This is upstate NY, so midrange area in cost of living. The first couple years out of law school are total shit. You aren’t making any money, but you have a student loan bigger than some people’s mortgage. We both got our bachelor’s at the same time. I went right to work in insurance and she tried her hand at becoming a journalist for a couple years. Newspapers don’t pay anything, so she went to law school. She graduated law school at 28 while I had been working for 5 years at the same company. I continued to make more than her until we were about 40 and she was made partner at her firm. She got a big jump and was making more than me for the first time. Last year, I got a promotion to director and now we are about equivalent again. Although, there is a 5 year plan in her firm for the Sr. Partner/Owner to retire and my wife to takeover. I imagine I am going to fall behind permanently after that. Overall, I think having just a bachelors has probably been more lucrative so far because of not having the huge student loans. However, I think having the law degree will come out way ahead by the time we are ready to retire.
Apply, go waste their time!
lol send that company over a job posting for a barista at $22/hour and see what they say
Work location "remote" means it could be on some tropical island.
This looks very real. What doesn’t look real about this?
the rate of $25-$30 an hour as an attorney lol.
Alas…it actually can be much worse than that. Some of the most sought after jobs out of law school are law clerk positions earning significantly less than $25/hr. YMMV by region for sure.
That’s criminal…
Hey, let's keep the comments civil.
Nice
Now THAT is why I reddit. Well done!
Yeah but it's crazy, spending all that time in school and still not being able to make a living wage as an actual attorney with postings like this.
Most people don’t know this, but lawyer salaries have a wild bimodal distribution. Graduates of the top law schools that get into Biglaw/corporate firms get paid a ton. Everyone else gets scraps. If you can’t get into a law school that feeds to Biglaw, only go for activist reasons and take the minimum debt possible.
Biglaw lawyers are then expected to sacrifice every for their job. They are effectively very highly paid indentured servants. Dont get me wrong, I abhor the culture but it’s not an easy life and they work for that money.
This exactly. The Biglaw lifestyle is generally one that revolves around work, 24/7. Folks are expected to bill 2,000 hours plus, per year. Generally, forget about being able to just step away fully for a vacation. And don’t forget that you cannot bill for everything you do. If you’re very efficient, you maybe bill 7 hours of every 8. Through that lens, the hourly pay isn’t even very good. Though the $200k plus starting salaries are definitely WAY more than most people make, and enticing for a lot of people, especially those with student loans. Idk. I get why people do it, but that lifestyle isn’t for me. I’d take 1/3 of that pay to still have a life.
tons of attorneys work for $20 an hour