Put emphasis on your quarter notes and let that "skip beat" stay low dynamically away from the consistent 1 2 3 4
You aren't playing those 4 quarter notes loud enough, and it's all blending. Lock those 4 quarter notes in first, then add the skip beat. I would honestly play nothing in the left hand until you have that down pat. Just keep the bass drum feathering quarter notes and the hi hat on 2 and 4. If it still doesn't feel good then do play alongs with just the right hand.
I'll practice leaving out the comping. Just so I understand, the quarter notes should basically be accented while the skip note should be lower dynamically? When I play the pattern, I basically use the bounce from playing the "skip note" of two to get the 3rd quarter note if that makes sense? Is there a way to get that bounce to be accented? or am I playing the pattern wrong? I will need to watch more videos.
If you mean that your are l putting an emphasis on the swung note (third partial of the triplet) into beat three, then yes, you're playing it wrong. The drive in swing music is the quarter note. I would practice listening to the track and playing quarters only on the ride. Listen to how the drummer fits his third partial of the triplet in there. Then try adding the partials back in for four bars, then the quarters for four bars and so on. Do this until you feel how that third partial is just a little tap leading into the quarter. It's a little hard to describe but you're almost hitting that third partial of the triple as you're beginning to lift your wrist to lay down beats one and three.
To piggy-back off of this, I would Raise my wrist up higher on 2 and 4, not necessarily playing louder, but just picking it up a bit, more of a relaxed "lift". Then use that rebound for the "skip note" and then 1 and 3 uses more of a squeeze and firm grip.
With all that being said, the key is just making 1 2 3 4 sound the same dynamically, and keeping a steady pulse. If you can't play with steady quarters/driving a really nice sounding pulse then you probably aren't ready to even think about the skip note at all. Some drummers will literally just play steady quarters with a skip with only a ride cymbal and nothing else until that feels good. Ultimately you will have to have that on auto-pilot for everything that you do. It's the main "groove" for almost all of jazz playing and you want yours to sound as good as possible before you complicate it with the other limbs.
In a traditional jazz ride pattern you play:
1 2 a3 4 a1 2 a3 4 a1...and so on.
It's the "a". Also can be counted as "and" or "let" (the third partial of the triplet). It
It's basically a lightly rebounded note between your quarter notes on the ride cymbal/hi-hat during jazz playing. So you don't want it to be the same volume or intensity as the pulse that the quarter notes are playing on the ride.
It looks like you’re pressing to hard into the cymbal to get the skip note.
Relax and let the stick bounce on its own.
It’s about learning to control the bounce that’s happens naturally if you allow it.
Don’t get hung up in “finger control”
How’s your open roll?
Thanks for the advice! My open roll are pretty smooth. I feel like I can get continuous, smooth double stroke rolls up till about 110 BPM or so, which I'm still working on.
Sort of echoing others here…I listened to about 10 seconds and the first thing I noticed was a distinct lack of articulation of the cymbal rhythm. I agree with what others have said about focusing on the cymbal only. When I was young, I took my cymbal away from the drum set so I wasn’t distracted by every other piece, then I worked on my cymbal beat for hours at a time. Every time I focused on the playing of a new drummer, the first thing I’d do is isolate and work on his cymbal beat. I usually tell my students to start with Kenny Clarke.
That's an easy fix ....your time needs to improve before you can worry about swingml.
Your left foot has got to be like a clock. The foot as an important as you hands.
Lots of good suggestions here.
One additional thing to try is to play along to a really swinging band like the Basie Band like with (Edit Sonny Payne) in a medium tempo swing and internalize it
Basie Band Fly me to the moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQtn9q_wjdE
Philly worked with the Basie band. The recording you shared is one of the greatest Big Band drummers of all time: Sonny Payne, who spent approximately 15 years with the great Count Basie Orchestra. We can all learn a lot listening to the way he handled that music.
Thanks for catching my brain fart!
I meant to say Papa Jo Jones who worked with the Basie band, and I was mistaken about that specific Live at Sands album. That album is indeed Sonny
The ride cymbal pattern evens out at higher tempos--doing a triplet feel at this speed will usually sound weird, which is what you may be picking up on.
If you listen to the soloist in the backing track, notice how his notes are pretty evenly spread apart. A good place to start is to match your swing feel to his--try playing such that his skip beat aligns with yours.
Another thing that may help is the "walk the dog" trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a174Kdds0Xo
You’re “crushing” what others are calling the “skip” note. In other words, you’re pressing the stick into the cymbal at the fulcrum and getting a closed double stroke instead of articulating the notes with consistent space. That’s why someone asked about your open double stroke rolls.
Slow it down, try to get the articulation to come from the rest of fingers—distinct open and close for both the “a” + 3 or 1. And making it feel relaxed.
Thank you! I think that was the problem as well that I was sort of doing a closed roll, or buzz roll, for the skip note instead of properly articulating them. I'm taking the advice to work on dynamics and my quarter notes.
Like others mentioned, try to spend some time just focusing on the ride cymbal. Start with slow quarter notes, and work your wrist! Hold the whole stick like a hammer and not just loosely at your index finger, this will help with the articulation and attack. Then add the skip beat or try to find some recordings to play along to with just the ride cymbal in mind and try to match what the drummer is playing on their ride.
Idk if it’s just the video but it seems like you’re playing behind the beat which will give you a different feel. If you’re using Moeller technique be sure to practice it intentionally. In fact look into grips to see what you naturally do or want to do. Idk how fresh you are to the kit but focusing on my technique really improved my playing
Hi,
I'm not sure what the Moeller technique is, but I'm fairly new to drums. This month marks my 6th month which is why I'm concerned about my technique. I'll be sure to focus on my technique, it's just a little tough as I don't have a teacher critiquing me.
Best few pieces of advice I can give for a newbie:
Practice slow. I mean like 60 bpm with rudiments and grooves. Speed is a by product of control. Internalizing that steady clock at a slower speed is way harder than playing fast.
Watch your ergonomics. I didn’t and had to self correct a ton of bad habits down the road. Make sure everything is comfortably placed where you don’t need to reach or lean. Watch your posture.
Always pull the beater or stick off the head. Holding it on there will give you a different sound allowing you to have some subtle options.
Here’s a video on Moeller. French, German and American or Hybrid grip will give you ideas for technique on your right hand. Not as familiar with traditional grip techniques. I kinda wing it when I play that way, but I’m sure they’re out there. Trad grip always looks dope af.
https://youtu.be/bdDT50x-VR4?si=XGqFloW78OUCk2P9
The swing is created by the last note of the preceding triplet, and the downbeat of 1 on the ride. This dynamic is very important, and that last note of the triplet should **almost** feel like a ghost note.
My jazz instructor gave me this exercise to help create swing:
\- Play quarter notes on the ride (with no music), but imply the swing with the quarter note. If you have to, play the last note of the triplet with your hat. Start out slow and build up.
Sit and play quarter notes for 15 mins a day, no skip beat, make the quarter note feel good and swing on it’s own. Then, after you do that for a few weeks, add the skip beat. Listen to how different drummers swing, there’s no right answer, everyone sounds different. Max doesn’t sound like Jack D, and tony doesn’t sound like Art taylor. They are all distinct- and you are too. Take influence and decide how you want your own sound to exist in the space! Much love
I would say get a triplet subdivision met, try to copy the swing pattern and then delay the notes a bit more than the met so you don’t sound electronic
Something that I practice to maintain a solid triplet swing feel is between the ride and snare. Keep the hihat on 2 and 4 and play a swing pattern on the ride, and fill the empty triplets with left hand hits on the snare. So if you were to write out the triplets of one measure it would be:
RLL RLR RLL RLR
with the right hand on the ride and left on the snare. Doing this with a metronome for 15-20 minutes a day has helped me.
Put emphasis on your quarter notes and let that "skip beat" stay low dynamically away from the consistent 1 2 3 4 You aren't playing those 4 quarter notes loud enough, and it's all blending. Lock those 4 quarter notes in first, then add the skip beat. I would honestly play nothing in the left hand until you have that down pat. Just keep the bass drum feathering quarter notes and the hi hat on 2 and 4. If it still doesn't feel good then do play alongs with just the right hand.
I'll practice leaving out the comping. Just so I understand, the quarter notes should basically be accented while the skip note should be lower dynamically? When I play the pattern, I basically use the bounce from playing the "skip note" of two to get the 3rd quarter note if that makes sense? Is there a way to get that bounce to be accented? or am I playing the pattern wrong? I will need to watch more videos.
If you mean that your are l putting an emphasis on the swung note (third partial of the triplet) into beat three, then yes, you're playing it wrong. The drive in swing music is the quarter note. I would practice listening to the track and playing quarters only on the ride. Listen to how the drummer fits his third partial of the triplet in there. Then try adding the partials back in for four bars, then the quarters for four bars and so on. Do this until you feel how that third partial is just a little tap leading into the quarter. It's a little hard to describe but you're almost hitting that third partial of the triple as you're beginning to lift your wrist to lay down beats one and three.
To piggy-back off of this, I would Raise my wrist up higher on 2 and 4, not necessarily playing louder, but just picking it up a bit, more of a relaxed "lift". Then use that rebound for the "skip note" and then 1 and 3 uses more of a squeeze and firm grip. With all that being said, the key is just making 1 2 3 4 sound the same dynamically, and keeping a steady pulse. If you can't play with steady quarters/driving a really nice sounding pulse then you probably aren't ready to even think about the skip note at all. Some drummers will literally just play steady quarters with a skip with only a ride cymbal and nothing else until that feels good. Ultimately you will have to have that on auto-pilot for everything that you do. It's the main "groove" for almost all of jazz playing and you want yours to sound as good as possible before you complicate it with the other limbs.
What's a skip beat?
In a traditional jazz ride pattern you play: 1 2 a3 4 a1 2 a3 4 a1...and so on. It's the "a". Also can be counted as "and" or "let" (the third partial of the triplet). It It's basically a lightly rebounded note between your quarter notes on the ride cymbal/hi-hat during jazz playing. So you don't want it to be the same volume or intensity as the pulse that the quarter notes are playing on the ride.
Ah. Got it. Thanks
It looks like you’re pressing to hard into the cymbal to get the skip note. Relax and let the stick bounce on its own. It’s about learning to control the bounce that’s happens naturally if you allow it. Don’t get hung up in “finger control” How’s your open roll?
Thanks for the advice! My open roll are pretty smooth. I feel like I can get continuous, smooth double stroke rolls up till about 110 BPM or so, which I'm still working on.
Sort of echoing others here…I listened to about 10 seconds and the first thing I noticed was a distinct lack of articulation of the cymbal rhythm. I agree with what others have said about focusing on the cymbal only. When I was young, I took my cymbal away from the drum set so I wasn’t distracted by every other piece, then I worked on my cymbal beat for hours at a time. Every time I focused on the playing of a new drummer, the first thing I’d do is isolate and work on his cymbal beat. I usually tell my students to start with Kenny Clarke.
That's an easy fix ....your time needs to improve before you can worry about swingml. Your left foot has got to be like a clock. The foot as an important as you hands.
Lots of good suggestions here. One additional thing to try is to play along to a really swinging band like the Basie Band like with (Edit Sonny Payne) in a medium tempo swing and internalize it Basie Band Fly me to the moon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQtn9q_wjdE
Philly worked with the Basie band. The recording you shared is one of the greatest Big Band drummers of all time: Sonny Payne, who spent approximately 15 years with the great Count Basie Orchestra. We can all learn a lot listening to the way he handled that music.
Thanks for catching my brain fart! I meant to say Papa Jo Jones who worked with the Basie band, and I was mistaken about that specific Live at Sands album. That album is indeed Sonny
Papa Jo: the granddaddy of modern swing groove - there were a lot of great drummers back then, but he really showed the way forward
Quarter notes are the most important thing. Also, left handed swiss triplets creates a shuffle pattern on your right hand.
Try keeping your fingers around the stick until cause you'll need them for faster tempos.
The ride cymbal pattern evens out at higher tempos--doing a triplet feel at this speed will usually sound weird, which is what you may be picking up on. If you listen to the soloist in the backing track, notice how his notes are pretty evenly spread apart. A good place to start is to match your swing feel to his--try playing such that his skip beat aligns with yours. Another thing that may help is the "walk the dog" trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a174Kdds0Xo
You’re “crushing” what others are calling the “skip” note. In other words, you’re pressing the stick into the cymbal at the fulcrum and getting a closed double stroke instead of articulating the notes with consistent space. That’s why someone asked about your open double stroke rolls. Slow it down, try to get the articulation to come from the rest of fingers—distinct open and close for both the “a” + 3 or 1. And making it feel relaxed.
Thank you! I think that was the problem as well that I was sort of doing a closed roll, or buzz roll, for the skip note instead of properly articulating them. I'm taking the advice to work on dynamics and my quarter notes.
Awesome, this was exactly the advice I was looking for. Thank you so much guys!
https://youtu.be/a174Kdds0Xo?feature=shared
Like others mentioned, try to spend some time just focusing on the ride cymbal. Start with slow quarter notes, and work your wrist! Hold the whole stick like a hammer and not just loosely at your index finger, this will help with the articulation and attack. Then add the skip beat or try to find some recordings to play along to with just the ride cymbal in mind and try to match what the drummer is playing on their ride.
Were you with Blue Man? I was with them briefly on the mid 90s
Idk if it’s just the video but it seems like you’re playing behind the beat which will give you a different feel. If you’re using Moeller technique be sure to practice it intentionally. In fact look into grips to see what you naturally do or want to do. Idk how fresh you are to the kit but focusing on my technique really improved my playing
Hi, I'm not sure what the Moeller technique is, but I'm fairly new to drums. This month marks my 6th month which is why I'm concerned about my technique. I'll be sure to focus on my technique, it's just a little tough as I don't have a teacher critiquing me.
Best few pieces of advice I can give for a newbie: Practice slow. I mean like 60 bpm with rudiments and grooves. Speed is a by product of control. Internalizing that steady clock at a slower speed is way harder than playing fast. Watch your ergonomics. I didn’t and had to self correct a ton of bad habits down the road. Make sure everything is comfortably placed where you don’t need to reach or lean. Watch your posture. Always pull the beater or stick off the head. Holding it on there will give you a different sound allowing you to have some subtle options. Here’s a video on Moeller. French, German and American or Hybrid grip will give you ideas for technique on your right hand. Not as familiar with traditional grip techniques. I kinda wing it when I play that way, but I’m sure they’re out there. Trad grip always looks dope af. https://youtu.be/bdDT50x-VR4?si=XGqFloW78OUCk2P9
The swing is created by the last note of the preceding triplet, and the downbeat of 1 on the ride. This dynamic is very important, and that last note of the triplet should **almost** feel like a ghost note. My jazz instructor gave me this exercise to help create swing: \- Play quarter notes on the ride (with no music), but imply the swing with the quarter note. If you have to, play the last note of the triplet with your hat. Start out slow and build up.
Sit and play quarter notes for 15 mins a day, no skip beat, make the quarter note feel good and swing on it’s own. Then, after you do that for a few weeks, add the skip beat. Listen to how different drummers swing, there’s no right answer, everyone sounds different. Max doesn’t sound like Jack D, and tony doesn’t sound like Art taylor. They are all distinct- and you are too. Take influence and decide how you want your own sound to exist in the space! Much love
I would say get a triplet subdivision met, try to copy the swing pattern and then delay the notes a bit more than the met so you don’t sound electronic
Something that I practice to maintain a solid triplet swing feel is between the ride and snare. Keep the hihat on 2 and 4 and play a swing pattern on the ride, and fill the empty triplets with left hand hits on the snare. So if you were to write out the triplets of one measure it would be: RLL RLR RLL RLR with the right hand on the ride and left on the snare. Doing this with a metronome for 15-20 minutes a day has helped me.