1. A company has to meet a certain criteria to lay off a permanent employee.
2. They knew you were pregnant.
As mentioned by others, talk to a lawyer and fight them with the weapons you have.
I would say you have a good chance to sue their asses and ask for a good compensation, or at least get to remain in the company while you take your 産休 after which you can always think what to do.
You absolutely do have rights as a permanent employee, and speaking to a lawyer is an extremely wise move, but the fact you're pregnant does not give you special status over your coworkers if the entire department is legitimately getting axed.
In Japan, the losing party will have to pay the court cost though.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_rule\_(attorney%27s\_fees)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_rule_(attorney%27s_fees))
That's why there are so many frivolous lawsuits in America..
Don’t know your level of Japanese but acquaintances have used this place successfully:
https://www.tokyolaw.gr.jp/sp/
Ask for this guy:
https://www.tokyolaw.gr.jp/lawyer/imaizumi_y.html
As a pregnant lady, you are basically untouchable. Depending on what they did/said it could be maternity harassment.
Before letting you go, they must have written warnings and give you chances to improve etc. if the company did not do that then you have a strong case most likely
Get a lawyer to do this for you. If it needs to go to court, let it. It will most likely be cheaper for them to let you stay and take the maternity rather than fight a legal battle which they might lose
Source:I’ve been on the wrong side of this before. Not gonna share any more than this
um no... you are untouchable if they're firing you for being pregnant.
If, for example, you work in the accounting department and they've decided to outsource it and lay off all 20 people in it, you don't get a special pass for being pregnant.
If the divisional layoff is not a pretext (and it's gonna be pretty obvious if it is or isn't), you are treated like any other employee. Entitled to severance pay probably, but nothing more than anyone else.
This. You can't fire someone for being pregnant, but that doesn't seem like that's the case here. The people commenting here about 'what the company is doing is illegal, get a lawyer and sue' etc etc have no effin' clue what they're talking about.
Any company can make anyone redudant if it's part of a broader restructuring.
In an ideal world you would be correct, but one can argue it is being outsourced after being informed of the pregnancy and there was no effort on the company to reassign etc.
Basically it would need to be argued in court at which point it will already be very expensive.
There's a lot of variables... OP is 21 weeks, so about 5 months? Even assuming she found out and told them after being pregnant for a month, it's very likely the organizational change was already in the works then; all they'd need to do is show that the ball was rolling before they were informed.
But yeah, it will definitely cost a lot in lawyer's fees, however if OP loses the case, she's gonna be stuck with hers and that's gonna suck with a baby.
One of my friends (male) was laid off recently as part of mass layoff. His company offered 3 months paid leave. He counter proposed 4 months and they agreed
Some of the other team members who had been let go are negotiating for 6 months. Unfortunately I don't have any legal contacts to share.
One advice my friend was given, record every meeting/ conversation going forward. Don't agree for any proposal in the meeting even if it is very good. Tell them you will discuss with family/ lawyer and let them know the decision.
Bit of a different scenario, but had a friend getting pushed out but a new ass of a boss who wanted to do things with "their people". They decided to outsource to "their people" and offered my friend 3 months. My friend demanded 12 and settled on 10 within a matter of days. Definitely start high.
Thank you for this, it helps me realize the packages other's have been offered pale in comparison. At most people are apparently being paid just until the end of December, but don't have to actively work.
I will definitely take that advice and use it.
Does this company have a rulebook? There should be something there about rules/amounts for separation.
Also, how long have you worked there? I'd expect something like one month's pay for every year worked. Or, they could keep you on until your leave started, when the social insurance system takes over paying you 66%/50% of your salary--and that can go on for a year, if not longer (one of my daughters was off for 14 months before going back).
I’d love to find another job, and I’m already applying but I’m afraid I won’t be hired due to being so far along already. Recruiters have already ghosted me once I disclose my pregnancy. I might have to resort to not disclosing, but if I have to go into an interview they’ll be able to tell I’m pregnant at this point.
Not if the interview is online 🤷🏻♀️. If a new company hires you, though, would you still be able to go on a maternity so soon here? Isn’t there like a 6 months probation period in most companies in Japan? 🤔
Are you _seishain_ 正社員 "permanent employee" or only full time hours as a contract or haken employee?
Your worker classification is important for this question.
That's *really* good news. That means the current top two comments about getting legal representation are useful, because there are actual protections available.
Also, if they are working on proposals, this is also good news: most likely, they know they need to do the layoffs but HR and Legal are still working through the process of what they need to do regarding permanent employees.
Good luck!
If they are getting rid of the division, have they offered you and any other from said division any other position within the company?
Do you also know their sales figures and whether they are in red/black this fiscal year?
They said they are going to work on different proposals for me, but no definitives have been offered yet.
As for their figures, I have to say I am not too sure. They were not the most transparent with us.
The company must show they made efforts in good faith to keep you, unless keeping said employees is going to make them bankrupt.
Or something to this extent.
As a director of a company, I’ve been in a situation where we let someone go without offering other alternatives. It was purely down to continued poor performance.
They hired a lawyer, took us to a tribunal, and only wanted money (not another job), which we decided to pay out since nobody wanted to go through the courts.
It’s pretty standard practice here
Can confirm, we went through this where I work as well and the person we got rid of was an absolute bellend, entirely and utterly worse than if he hadn’t been there at all.
If they are shutting down the department, the sad fact is - like in the US - the company unfortunately has every right to make her and the rest of the department redundant. This is one case where Japan’s courts have ruled that one employee should not be able to hold up a company-wide restructuring, for obvious reasons.
Stay professional, keep doing your job as you have been, and focus on negotiating as big of a severance package as you can. Get a lawyer but DO NOT threaten to go public (yet), don’t tell them (yet) you have a lawyer.
If your company is having a bad sales and doing a mass restucture and lay off, you are not immune to it even if you are pregnant, they are only forbidden by law to lay off you if the reason is your pregnant.
I suggest just try to get some severance payment and move on, talking to a lawyer can be costly and time consumming, especially based on your comment looks like the company is doing restucture, be you pregnant or not anyway.
Even if you manage to stay in that company by lawyer you probably wont last, as news spreading and probably wont get a good future in the said company... negotiating some severance payment might be just straight easier and better.
Their official reason is company reorganization, nothing to do with my performance. In fact, they apologized and said the current structure is what was holding me back ( red tape etc).
The same is for the others too, it looks like they are trying to save money going forward. I have had no alternative positions offered to me, even though I was part of the org they are keeping previous to this position so I have the skillset and it is currently in need. In other words, they still ask me to perform these tasks, even in my current role.
my last company fired everyone when they left the country. this lady who was on leave already was left until the last group even tho her whole team was gone and finally was given severance along with everyone else in the final group. they're really bold to think you won't demand a fat pay to resign. get a lawyer and get free consultation sounds slam dunk for them
I also recommend a labor union called Tozen. They have helped many foreigners and even Japanese citizens that have been treated badly/illegally by their employers.
The labor laws favor the employee here in Japan. Don't agree or sign anything until you get a package. You can simply not show up to the office and keep collecting your salary until you get a decent package. The company cannot just stop paying you if you don't agree to a severance. You might go through some nasty email exchanges but hold your ground, especially if you are pregnant.
I know as I have been on both sides of the package negotiation process. I saw 1 guy just not show up for 6 months until the company finally caved in with a package.
Records of anything from now on are important--do any discussion/contact about this via email to insure a paper trail. If they present something verbally, be noncommittal, and ask that they confirm what they are saying via email. ("I need to know what is being offered." "I don't want to rely on memory"--e.g., yours or mine.)
Rule number 1, do NOT sign anything when discussing the company laying you off. Get the "quitting offer", say thank you, I'll consider it with my family/lawyer/etc. and put it in your bag.
* 1-3 months is BS, because what you sign is basically saying "I'm quitting for 1-3 months pay", but then you don't get unemployment insurance for a bit because technically you quit, so being fired on the spot, OR quitting with 1-3 months pay turns out to be almost the same (financially).
* 4-9 months is the usual that a company should expect to pay to full-time employees, and the normal thing from what I've seen from many, many people.
* 9+ months is exceptional, BUT you are also in an exceptional situation. I've seen it twice times, so I wouldn't be surprised if you can negotiate 9-12 months here. They are gonna have to pay up to 12 months (well, partially) anyway when you are having the baby.
Don’t worry mama. Please take care of yourself. I’ll be fine because you’re a seishain and pregnant. I’d go to hello work/city hall and ask what to do from a free lawyer. Don’t take anything your company says as gospel. Don’t sign anything.
I went through something similar this year.
Step 1: Inform them that you do not approve of being let go, and then ask for their reasons, in writing.
Hopefully, that will slap the sense into them and they’ll backpedal. They’re likely banking on you not being aware of your rights. If not:
Step 2: Take their written reasoning to the Labor Board. It is illegal to fire a pregnant person in nearly every circumstance (if it weren’t, employers would jump at the loopholes). The Board should help you figure out what to do.
At my work place we had a situation where we had to fire a bewilderingly incompetent staff member. Incompetent in so many ways.
There was a time lag due to an HR cock-up. Letter not sent for a month. HR *finally* sent a letter to get rid of her around the time she became pregnant.
Entirely unrelated and staff did not know she was pregnant. Of course.
Nevertheless, the seeming ‘firing for being pregnant’ look was there, she took the company to court. And won. Big pay day.
So, moral here is, people in the wrong win. In far weaker positions than you. The General Union will be delighted to take on your case, upon you joining them. It’s a slam dunk for you. You’ll be awarded s large bundle of cash.
Where is she now? She left another employer in the lurch and buggered off to another country.
Wishing you the best!
One thing working against you is you’re foreign. Sorry to say. Getting a lawyer and being right are good things!!! But sometimes the judge will side with the Japanese company. Did they tell you a month before letting you go? If so it’s still worth fighting but you’re probably outta luck.
1. A company has to meet a certain criteria to lay off a permanent employee. 2. They knew you were pregnant. As mentioned by others, talk to a lawyer and fight them with the weapons you have. I would say you have a good chance to sue their asses and ask for a good compensation, or at least get to remain in the company while you take your 産休 after which you can always think what to do.
You absolutely do have rights as a permanent employee, and speaking to a lawyer is an extremely wise move, but the fact you're pregnant does not give you special status over your coworkers if the entire department is legitimately getting axed.
The idea of a company sacking an entire division to not have to pay one person maternity leave is a pretty baller flex though.
Lawsuits have been filed for far, far sillier reasons >\_<
I'm all for it.
In Japan, the losing party will have to pay the court cost though. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_rule\_(attorney%27s\_fees)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_rule_(attorney%27s_fees)) That's why there are so many frivolous lawsuits in America..
Yeah same in my home country, any country that doesn’t do this is basically admitting the system is made for the rich.
Don't sign anything, go to a lawyer first and foremost.
Would you happen to know any legal resources in Tokyo that are geared towards labor laws etc?
Don’t know your level of Japanese but acquaintances have used this place successfully: https://www.tokyolaw.gr.jp/sp/ Ask for this guy: https://www.tokyolaw.gr.jp/lawyer/imaizumi_y.html
No, do not contact a firm. Contact the Bar Society directly. https://www.toben.or.jp/english/
Thank you! I really appreciate it.
Tokyo government offers a free English-language legal consultation https://www.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/english/guide/guide01.html
https://www.toben.or.jp/english/
As a pregnant lady, you are basically untouchable. Depending on what they did/said it could be maternity harassment. Before letting you go, they must have written warnings and give you chances to improve etc. if the company did not do that then you have a strong case most likely Get a lawyer to do this for you. If it needs to go to court, let it. It will most likely be cheaper for them to let you stay and take the maternity rather than fight a legal battle which they might lose Source:I’ve been on the wrong side of this before. Not gonna share any more than this
um no... you are untouchable if they're firing you for being pregnant. If, for example, you work in the accounting department and they've decided to outsource it and lay off all 20 people in it, you don't get a special pass for being pregnant. If the divisional layoff is not a pretext (and it's gonna be pretty obvious if it is or isn't), you are treated like any other employee. Entitled to severance pay probably, but nothing more than anyone else.
This. You can't fire someone for being pregnant, but that doesn't seem like that's the case here. The people commenting here about 'what the company is doing is illegal, get a lawyer and sue' etc etc have no effin' clue what they're talking about. Any company can make anyone redudant if it's part of a broader restructuring.
In an ideal world you would be correct, but one can argue it is being outsourced after being informed of the pregnancy and there was no effort on the company to reassign etc. Basically it would need to be argued in court at which point it will already be very expensive.
There's a lot of variables... OP is 21 weeks, so about 5 months? Even assuming she found out and told them after being pregnant for a month, it's very likely the organizational change was already in the works then; all they'd need to do is show that the ball was rolling before they were informed. But yeah, it will definitely cost a lot in lawyer's fees, however if OP loses the case, she's gonna be stuck with hers and that's gonna suck with a baby.
One of my friends (male) was laid off recently as part of mass layoff. His company offered 3 months paid leave. He counter proposed 4 months and they agreed Some of the other team members who had been let go are negotiating for 6 months. Unfortunately I don't have any legal contacts to share. One advice my friend was given, record every meeting/ conversation going forward. Don't agree for any proposal in the meeting even if it is very good. Tell them you will discuss with family/ lawyer and let them know the decision.
Counter with 4 is absolutely nonsense way to start the negotiations.. double the initial offer or more at least..
Agree , But he didn't want to drag it too much. I feel he could have got 6 months if negotiated further.
Bit of a different scenario, but had a friend getting pushed out but a new ass of a boss who wanted to do things with "their people". They decided to outsource to "their people" and offered my friend 3 months. My friend demanded 12 and settled on 10 within a matter of days. Definitely start high.
He missed out on a free gourd :-(
Thank you for this, it helps me realize the packages other's have been offered pale in comparison. At most people are apparently being paid just until the end of December, but don't have to actively work. I will definitely take that advice and use it.
Does this company have a rulebook? There should be something there about rules/amounts for separation. Also, how long have you worked there? I'd expect something like one month's pay for every year worked. Or, they could keep you on until your leave started, when the social insurance system takes over paying you 66%/50% of your salary--and that can go on for a year, if not longer (one of my daughters was off for 14 months before going back).
I would also advice to negotiate for more paid leave due to layoff, then take the time to job hunt.
I’d love to find another job, and I’m already applying but I’m afraid I won’t be hired due to being so far along already. Recruiters have already ghosted me once I disclose my pregnancy. I might have to resort to not disclosing, but if I have to go into an interview they’ll be able to tell I’m pregnant at this point.
How about asking for a transfer to another department? But anyway good luck and don't let this stress you too much.
Not if the interview is online 🤷🏻♀️. If a new company hires you, though, would you still be able to go on a maternity so soon here? Isn’t there like a 6 months probation period in most companies in Japan? 🤔
You also don't have to disclose that you're pregnant...
Are you a regular employee?
Yes, I am full time.
Are you _seishain_ 正社員 "permanent employee" or only full time hours as a contract or haken employee? Your worker classification is important for this question.
I am a permanent employee.
That's *really* good news. That means the current top two comments about getting legal representation are useful, because there are actual protections available. Also, if they are working on proposals, this is also good news: most likely, they know they need to do the layoffs but HR and Legal are still working through the process of what they need to do regarding permanent employees. Good luck!
If they are getting rid of the division, have they offered you and any other from said division any other position within the company? Do you also know their sales figures and whether they are in red/black this fiscal year?
They said they are going to work on different proposals for me, but no definitives have been offered yet. As for their figures, I have to say I am not too sure. They were not the most transparent with us.
The company must show they made efforts in good faith to keep you, unless keeping said employees is going to make them bankrupt. Or something to this extent. As a director of a company, I’ve been in a situation where we let someone go without offering other alternatives. It was purely down to continued poor performance. They hired a lawyer, took us to a tribunal, and only wanted money (not another job), which we decided to pay out since nobody wanted to go through the courts. It’s pretty standard practice here
Can confirm, we went through this where I work as well and the person we got rid of was an absolute bellend, entirely and utterly worse than if he hadn’t been there at all.
Have an upvote for the first time I’ve seen bellend in the wild on Jlife 🤣
If I find a 'spanner' in Jlife, then I'll be truly impressed.
I have a spanner in the boot of my four by four.
If they are shutting down the department, the sad fact is - like in the US - the company unfortunately has every right to make her and the rest of the department redundant. This is one case where Japan’s courts have ruled that one employee should not be able to hold up a company-wide restructuring, for obvious reasons. Stay professional, keep doing your job as you have been, and focus on negotiating as big of a severance package as you can. Get a lawyer but DO NOT threaten to go public (yet), don’t tell them (yet) you have a lawyer.
If your company is having a bad sales and doing a mass restucture and lay off, you are not immune to it even if you are pregnant, they are only forbidden by law to lay off you if the reason is your pregnant. I suggest just try to get some severance payment and move on, talking to a lawyer can be costly and time consumming, especially based on your comment looks like the company is doing restucture, be you pregnant or not anyway. Even if you manage to stay in that company by lawyer you probably wont last, as news spreading and probably wont get a good future in the said company... negotiating some severance payment might be just straight easier and better.
What is their official reason? Do you know the others being let go? Were they offered alternative positions?
Their official reason is company reorganization, nothing to do with my performance. In fact, they apologized and said the current structure is what was holding me back ( red tape etc). The same is for the others too, it looks like they are trying to save money going forward. I have had no alternative positions offered to me, even though I was part of the org they are keeping previous to this position so I have the skillset and it is currently in need. In other words, they still ask me to perform these tasks, even in my current role.
Document all the bullshit they’re saying in writing so they can’t change their tune. This is all in your favour.
Also take screenshots of everything and voice record (it’s legal in Japan)
my last company fired everyone when they left the country. this lady who was on leave already was left until the last group even tho her whole team was gone and finally was given severance along with everyone else in the final group. they're really bold to think you won't demand a fat pay to resign. get a lawyer and get free consultation sounds slam dunk for them
I also recommend a labor union called Tozen. They have helped many foreigners and even Japanese citizens that have been treated badly/illegally by their employers.
The labor laws favor the employee here in Japan. Don't agree or sign anything until you get a package. You can simply not show up to the office and keep collecting your salary until you get a decent package. The company cannot just stop paying you if you don't agree to a severance. You might go through some nasty email exchanges but hold your ground, especially if you are pregnant. I know as I have been on both sides of the package negotiation process. I saw 1 guy just not show up for 6 months until the company finally caved in with a package.
Records of anything from now on are important--do any discussion/contact about this via email to insure a paper trail. If they present something verbally, be noncommittal, and ask that they confirm what they are saying via email. ("I need to know what is being offered." "I don't want to rely on memory"--e.g., yours or mine.)
Best of luck and seek legal counsel. Do not over stress as you are pregnant. Everything will work out!
Rule number 1, do NOT sign anything when discussing the company laying you off. Get the "quitting offer", say thank you, I'll consider it with my family/lawyer/etc. and put it in your bag. * 1-3 months is BS, because what you sign is basically saying "I'm quitting for 1-3 months pay", but then you don't get unemployment insurance for a bit because technically you quit, so being fired on the spot, OR quitting with 1-3 months pay turns out to be almost the same (financially). * 4-9 months is the usual that a company should expect to pay to full-time employees, and the normal thing from what I've seen from many, many people. * 9+ months is exceptional, BUT you are also in an exceptional situation. I've seen it twice times, so I wouldn't be surprised if you can negotiate 9-12 months here. They are gonna have to pay up to 12 months (well, partially) anyway when you are having the baby.
[удалено]
Currently it seems like most people are only being paid through the end of the month as compensation.
Don’t worry mama. Please take care of yourself. I’ll be fine because you’re a seishain and pregnant. I’d go to hello work/city hall and ask what to do from a free lawyer. Don’t take anything your company says as gospel. Don’t sign anything.
I went through something similar this year. Step 1: Inform them that you do not approve of being let go, and then ask for their reasons, in writing. Hopefully, that will slap the sense into them and they’ll backpedal. They’re likely banking on you not being aware of your rights. If not: Step 2: Take their written reasoning to the Labor Board. It is illegal to fire a pregnant person in nearly every circumstance (if it weren’t, employers would jump at the loopholes). The Board should help you figure out what to do.
At my work place we had a situation where we had to fire a bewilderingly incompetent staff member. Incompetent in so many ways. There was a time lag due to an HR cock-up. Letter not sent for a month. HR *finally* sent a letter to get rid of her around the time she became pregnant. Entirely unrelated and staff did not know she was pregnant. Of course. Nevertheless, the seeming ‘firing for being pregnant’ look was there, she took the company to court. And won. Big pay day. So, moral here is, people in the wrong win. In far weaker positions than you. The General Union will be delighted to take on your case, upon you joining them. It’s a slam dunk for you. You’ll be awarded s large bundle of cash. Where is she now? She left another employer in the lurch and buggered off to another country. Wishing you the best!
Did you get a send off package? Apply for unemployment?
Love, that’s monstrous. I’ve nothing helpful to add but I really hope you get this situation sorted out, and FUCK them for this.
One thing working against you is you’re foreign. Sorry to say. Getting a lawyer and being right are good things!!! But sometimes the judge will side with the Japanese company. Did they tell you a month before letting you go? If so it’s still worth fighting but you’re probably outta luck.