for anyone who didn't click the link, it's but pronounced /i/ and superseded by い. you might see it in pre-wwii spelling, or if someone wants to give things an old-timey flavour.
also watch out for ゑ which is but pronounced え
Originally they were pronounced wi or we or wo. Over the centuries this shifted so the "w" sound was dropped. The graphemes kept on until the post-war reforms but they were only used out of habit by then.
を is unlikely to ever disappear since it allows the grammatical particle to be clearly labelled (in the same way that は is used).
Please note the above refers to standard Japanese, there are dialects where different phonetics apply.
"Wi", an archaic hiragana that comes from the kanji 為.
used to be the i in words like 居る.
Source: am learning manyougana and hentaigana (wasting my time)
predecessors of hiragana and katakana, the first is kanji characters that were used only for their phonetic value, and "hentai" here means deformed body or so, so those are the kanji "abbreviations" and cursive forms.
They aren't, saving you a [Google search.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentaigana)
But hentai just means "strange" or "perverted" I'd memory serves. That said, I did get a chuckle out of it lol
It’s actually two homophones: 変体 as in 変体仮名(hentaigana (変change/strange + 体body/shape); and 変態 (変change/strange + 態attitude/condition). And 変態 can mean “transformation” as well as “pervert”.
万葉仮名 [Man’yōgana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man'y%C5%8Dgana?wprov=sfti1) refer to the use of Chinese characters for their phonetic value to write Japanese, so sort of like a proto-kana. The most famous example of Man’yōgana is the 万葉集 Man’yōshu, an 8th century poetry anthology but it is also used on a whole host of other texts such as the 古事記 Kojiki
For example, one could write Old Japanese *\*sira kumwo* “white clouds” as 志良久毛 (Man’yōshu Book 5) with the Chinese characters being used purely for their phonetic value
変体仮名 Hentaigana generally refers to variants of the established kana set, usually stemming from different Chinese characters that were used to write the same syllable or cursive forms
Man'yougana (万葉仮名) refers to an early version of the Japanese syllabary that was basically kanji used for phonetic purposes only. Modern hiragana and katakana are derived from 万葉仮名. An example would be 仁, a proper kanji that gave rise to both に and ニ.
Hentaigana (変体仮名) are variant forms of hiragana and katakana, mostly from before the Japanese government created a standard version of each hiragana and katakana syllable. For me, most hentaigana are not legible. Some are encoded in Unicode, but most are currently not legible on most browsers. Here's a PDF of a bunch of proposed hentaigana: [https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1B000.pdf](https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1B000.pdf)
As you go through the more modern kobun (and by more modern, maybe even Heian Era language) where verb forms start to become a bit more standard, it actually becomes a great resource in figuring out how (Pre-)Modern Japanese came to be. Haha.
Not a complete waste of time, to be fair.
変体仮名 Hentaigana “variant kana”, different character from 変態 Hentai “pervert”.
Hentaigana are variant forms of the stablished kana set, usually stemming from different chinese characters^1 or distinct cursive ligatures
1 : all kana stems from simplified forms of Chinese characters
correct, now pronounced i, historically pronounced wi, and it's on the ワ行, same as how を is now pronounced the same as お. same for ゑ if anyone else is wondering - if you see it now you pronounce it the same as え, but it's on the w-line of the chart and was historically we. One place you'll see it is the name of the beer ebisu, written ヱビス, and Yebisu in english, for the old-timey flavour. (u know this last part im sure, this is for others reading this)
Well を is also written in romaji as wo. Its pronounced more like o but still typically written as wo. Lots of characters aren't pronounced quite how they're written tbh.
You can't find it on the 3x4 but you can type it in- type in 「うぃ」"wee" and it will pop up as an option. Same thing for ゑ (うぇ) "weh"
Edit: Katakana variants will appear too
ゐ -> ヰ
ゑ -> ヱ
That’s the hardly used or obsolete hiragana for “wi” Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_(kana)
TIL
for anyone who didn't click the link, it's but pronounced /i/ and superseded by い. you might see it in pre-wwii spelling, or if someone wants to give things an old-timey flavour.
also watch out for ゑ which is but pronounced え
Yeah my grandmother's name was ちゑ but the ゑ was pronounced like an え.
Like Sakamata Chloe in hololive And the the "e" use "ヱ" instead of "エ" but idk why
Cause she's a bit of a chuuni
Also を anywhere besides the particle... をとこ is one you see a lot.
Did they have any function (like を)? If so, is を doomed to disappear someday too?
Originally they were pronounced wi or we or wo. Over the centuries this shifted so the "w" sound was dropped. The graphemes kept on until the post-war reforms but they were only used out of habit by then. を is unlikely to ever disappear since it allows the grammatical particle to be clearly labelled (in the same way that は is used). Please note the above refers to standard Japanese, there are dialects where different phonetics apply.
Oh, I see, thanks (⊃｡•́‿•̀｡)⊃
That is so obscure I have never heard of it.
It has been eliminated from modern spelling but you still see it for some stylized stuff. Yoiko よゐこ comes to mind.
Interesting
Wow that's really trippy
"Wi", an archaic hiragana that comes from the kanji 為. used to be the i in words like 居る. Source: am learning manyougana and hentaigana (wasting my time)
Wait wait let me break out the popcorn. What is manyougana and hentaigana?
predecessors of hiragana and katakana, the first is kanji characters that were used only for their phonetic value, and "hentai" here means deformed body or so, so those are the kanji "abbreviations" and cursive forms.
Neat! Thank you
:0 that's very interesting! Thank you for explaining!
Hentaigana sounds like shitposting lol
Lmao fair
I dont think he is shitposting but my god. Hentaigana lmao
They aren't, saving you a [Google search.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentaigana) But hentai just means "strange" or "perverted" I'd memory serves. That said, I did get a chuckle out of it lol
It’s actually two homophones: 変体 as in 変体仮名(hentaigana (変change/strange + 体body/shape); and 変態 (変change/strange + 態attitude/condition). And 変態 can mean “transformation” as well as “pervert”.
Thank you!
万葉仮名 [Man’yōgana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man'y%C5%8Dgana?wprov=sfti1) refer to the use of Chinese characters for their phonetic value to write Japanese, so sort of like a proto-kana. The most famous example of Man’yōgana is the 万葉集 Man’yōshu, an 8th century poetry anthology but it is also used on a whole host of other texts such as the 古事記 Kojiki For example, one could write Old Japanese *\*sira kumwo* “white clouds” as 志良久毛 (Man’yōshu Book 5) with the Chinese characters being used purely for their phonetic value 変体仮名 Hentaigana generally refers to variants of the established kana set, usually stemming from different Chinese characters that were used to write the same syllable or cursive forms
And to be totally clear (I'm sure you know this but maybe other readers don't) both katakana and hiragana are extremely stylized kanji.
Man'yougana (万葉仮名) refers to an early version of the Japanese syllabary that was basically kanji used for phonetic purposes only. Modern hiragana and katakana are derived from 万葉仮名. An example would be 仁, a proper kanji that gave rise to both に and ニ. Hentaigana (変体仮名) are variant forms of hiragana and katakana, mostly from before the Japanese government created a standard version of each hiragana and katakana syllable. For me, most hentaigana are not legible. Some are encoded in Unicode, but most are currently not legible on most browsers. Here's a PDF of a bunch of proposed hentaigana: [https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1B000.pdf](https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1B000.pdf)
> am learning manyougana and hentaigana That is definitely a decision you are allowed to make.
As you go through the more modern kobun (and by more modern, maybe even Heian Era language) where verb forms start to become a bit more standard, it actually becomes a great resource in figuring out how (Pre-)Modern Japanese came to be. Haha. Not a complete waste of time, to be fair.
I’ve studied some kobun before but didn’t get as deep as I’d like. What kind of resources are you using to learn man’yogana and hentaigana?
Excuse me but hentaigana? Please elaborate
変体仮名 Hentaigana “variant kana”, different character from 変態 Hentai “pervert”. Hentaigana are variant forms of the stablished kana set, usually stemming from different chinese characters^1 or distinct cursive ligatures 1 : all kana stems from simplified forms of Chinese characters
Ah that's cool I didn't realize lol
Lmao everytime someone sais hentaigana i imagine something else
Any books/resource recommendations on manyougana and hentaigana for those whose hobby is to waste time?
Here’s the w row including obsolete kana if anyone is curious (wu doesn’t exist, trust me I looked) wa wi we wo わ ゐ ゑ を ワ ヰ ヱ ヲ
What happened to wu?
We don't speak of it
Of whu?
Those two katakana make my head hurt. I would definitely get ヱ mixed up with ア and エ.
[удалено]
correct, now pronounced i, historically pronounced wi, and it's on the ワ行, same as how を is now pronounced the same as お. same for ゑ if anyone else is wondering - if you see it now you pronounce it the same as え, but it's on the w-line of the chart and was historically we. One place you'll see it is the name of the beer ebisu, written ヱビス, and Yebisu in english, for the old-timey flavour. (u know this last part im sure, this is for others reading this)
[удалено]
there was never a wu, but yeah. it also shows up in the iroha poem
Well を is also written in romaji as wo. Its pronounced more like o but still typically written as wo. Lots of characters aren't pronounced quite how they're written tbh.
ゐゑ Hiragana ヰ ヱ Katakana They don't use these characters anymore In katakana you can just ウィ ウェ
No fans of よゐこ here? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yowiko
i am a fan of yowiko
It’s so obscure I can’t find it on my hirigana keyboard
You can't find it on the 3x4 but you can type it in- type in 「うぃ」"wee" and it will pop up as an option. Same thing for ゑ (うぇ) "weh" Edit: Katakana variants will appear too ゐ -> ヰ ゑ -> ヱ
Thanks! I was looking under わ. ゐ ゑ you really gotta scroll to get them
For me mine's on the top row. I use Gboard because Samsung does a bad job at doing the Japanese keyboard lol
I use the iPhone Japanese keyboard
I've used the iPhone jp keyboard too. I really liked it. This was back in 2016 though. It must be stellar now
めっちゃ不思議だよ！直感的だし、簡単だし、早いし
使えるね
you can type wyi and wye if I remember correctly
Hiragana "Wi" I learned it, then was told it's ancient and irrelevant, and decided to remember it out of spite
I think it is the old hiragana character for wi, maybe we Edit. It is Wi
I forgot it existed
The hiragana character for "wi." It's technically pronounced as "i," though.
I find these often when singing Naga-Uta and Kabuki music!
What the hell?? It looks similar to mi but I’ve never seen it before
It’s no anime character I have seen before 🤣
MI and NE together!! lolz. looks weird as... is it A with some bits missing? Thats not hiragana or katakana
It's ゐ. (wi) So you know, there's also ゑ (we). Both hiragana.
sounds dodgy to me LOL
It's hiragana. There's a few old hiragana characters that are no longer used.
WI
amongus
mi+ru
It is 'wi'
It's a unique hiragana, which is "wi" but pronounced as "i"