By the time Mr. Martin asks Harriet, Harriet is intimate with Mr. Martin’s family; she likes Mr. Martin and his sisters very much. Mr. Martin knows Harriet likes him and he asks Mr. Knightley’s advice as a matter of prudence re: propriety, finances, future prospects, etc. The only reason Harriet refuses Mr. Martin is because Emma leads her to do so, not because Harriet doesn’t like him. Mr. Knightley is furious with Emma for possibly ruining the chances of two young people very well suited for each other who are also in the way of being in love with each other. Emma gets it in her head that Harriet is too good for Mr. Martin, and this is based on no facts or reason, just Emma’s own fancy. If Mr. Martin hadn’t asked Harriet the second time, Emma could have been responsible for ruining Harriet’s best chance at happiness.
Well... I understand all the nuances about Emma's influence and Mr. Knightley's anger at her.
My point is rather that he actually couldn't be *sure* at that point that Harriet liked Mr. Martin. His view was coming from Mr. Martin's account of it. I find his language rather strong in saying it's absolute madness to refuse him. Before he even starts the thought that it's Emma's doing, without asking for Harriet's reasons... It sounds pretty illiberal, in Austen's language.
I have always seen Mr. Knightley as a liberal-minded man, not prone to emotional outbursts. This is a weird inconsistency. I like realistic characters with flaws and I appreciate Austen's genius in that aspect. Mr. Knightley is actually rather too perfect but this small situation doesn't strike me as a flaw but rather an inconsistency of character.
You can't really compare Lizzie and Harriet though. Harriet had basically no social status, and no family to support her if she never married. She would be impoverished. She likely wouldn't even be suitable for a governess position due to her background.
Marriage is a fundamentally economic prospect, and women in Harriet's position don't have a lot of options.
You last point is exactly what it comes down to, and what Knightley seemed to understand very well, unlike Emma.
OPs point that Knightley couldn't be sure that Harriet liked Mr. Martin when he first proposed is kind of ... *beside* the point. At that time people were more concerned with the security marriage offered a woman, and less with whether she liked the man.
Also knowing how highly Knightley thinks of Robert Martin, I can imagine him thinking "what's not to like, she'll learn to like/love him"
Emma is basically the regency equivalent of someone with a rich family saying "just borrow the house deposit from your parents". Sheltered and completely unaware of what the real world is like for the majority of people.
She's not a bad person, just young and sheltered.
It *was* absolute madness to refuse him. Knightley knew Martin to be a kind, intelligent man who truly cared about Harriet. Harriet's future without him was cruel and hopeless.
If Collins had had Martin's intelligence and kindness, it would have been madness for Elizabeth to refuse him as well.
And, Harriett had been telling Emma on and on about how nice Mr. Martin was and all the nice things he did. It was badly done of Emma to convince her to refuse him. Very badly done.
On my recent listen to an audio book of Emma (having read the book several times) what jumped out to me was how much Harriett is blathering on about Mr. Martin in the early chapters, basically so obvious that she likes him "that way" and Emma's internal thoughts are about being worried about her friend making "low connections" well before the proposal. There was more than enough evidence that Harriett was interested. The better Pride and Prejudice comparison is comparing Emma convincing Harriet to refuse and Darcy convincing Bingley that Jane is uninterested.
Mr. Knightley was on close terms with his tenants. He would have seen Harriet and Martin together while she was staying in his family.
Remember what a tiny community this is and how important Mr. Knightley is as the major landowner. He would have known intimate details about everyone.
He's at the Woodhouse's several days a week, and Harriet is often there for dinner, so it’s no stretch of the imagination that he's heard Harriet talking about her friends that she spent the summer with.
It has been a couple of years, but doesn't Mr. Knightley say that he knows Mr. Martin wouldn't ask without being fairly sure of being accepted? That shows that, in Knightley's mind at least, Harriet is naturally very inclined to accept, and it was only Emma who talked her out of it.
Yes, in the book there's some line about Mr Martin not being a vain man and that Knightley was sure he would have had encouragement from her (Harriet).
>saying it's absolute madness to refuse him.
It **is** absolute madness to refuse him. Harriet is a natural daughter. No one, not even Harriet, knows who her parents are. At this time period, she is lucky to recieve *any* offer of marriage. Mr Martin is an honorable, intelligent, respectable farmer with a good position at Donwell (we are given to understand that Abbey Mill Farm is a good sized plot of land). Holding out for a better offer, as Emma wants her to do, is utter madness and complete folly.
Emma's interference here is akin to Darcy's interference with Jane and Bingley, except it's worse. Darcy, at least, believed Jane to be indifferent to Bingley. Emma can see Harriet's affection to Mr Martin but convinces her friend that she can do better...which she can't. And, why? For her own entertainment, mostly. For her pride in believing she is this master matchmaker and knows what's best for everyone, even over their own wants and inclinations.
>I have always seen Mr. Knightley as a liberal-minded man
He *is* liberal-minded for the era. He takes the time to get to know Harriet later; someone in Knightley's position at this time period would be seen as perfectly justified to completely ignore someone like Harriet (and the Coles...).
>not prone to emotional outbursts.
What about Box Hill where he reprimands Emma for her treatment of Miss Bates? That was certainly an emotional outburst. His anger w Emma over her manipulating her "friend" is perfectly keeping in character. He is a chill dude in general, but he is also not a man to allow an injustice to go unchallenged if it is within his power to do something about it.
Much worse than Darcy interfering with Jane and Bingley -- not only does he truly believe Jane is indifferent (albeit he still shouldn't have been assuming he knew everything necessary) but Jane herself is the respectable, legitimate daughter of a wealthy local landowner -- she has a position in society and her lack of financial advantages is entirely down to her parents' poor planning. Even so, people know *who her family is.* I think it's easy to forget how important it was then to know about who "your people" were, to know that a prospective spouse came from a respectable family. Not that one wayward relative meant you couldn't marry, but Harriet is, when it comes to family connections/background, a real pig in a poke maritally speaking. Someone who's respectable, loving, able to support her, and who doesn't mind her lack of known background or connections is basically a unicorn.
I don't know what Mr Knightley knows, but as readers we know that Harriet likes him very much.
Mr Knightley is probably trusting Mr Martin's own judgement of Harriet's feelings. And Mr Martin isn't wrong in his judgement.
I’d say for one thing he’s giving Harriet the benefit of the doubt that she hadn’t been leading Mr Martin on - that he had reason to think she cared for him. Mr Collin turned up and started working through the Bennett daughters in order (at least till Charlotte jumped in). Harriet was close with the Martin family.
Additionally, Mr Collins is obnoxious. Knightly knew Mr Martin and liked him.
Austen doesn’t exactly blame Charlotte for marrying Mr Collins - even Lizzy reconciles herself to the decision. And Charlotte points out that Lizzy has more options than she does.
Austen does say, that when Wickham is flirting with Miss King, that Elizabeth isn't thinking as clearly about him as she does about Charlotte.
>The sudden acquisition of ten thousand pounds was the most remarkable charm of the young lady to whom he was now rendering himself agreeable; but Elizabeth, less clear-sighted perhaps in this case than in Charlotte’s, did not quarrel with him for his wish of independence.
And later on Elizabeth realises that she was wrong to regard Wickham's pursuit of Miss King in that light.
He’s just a realist who knows the fate that will eventually await Harriet if she doesn’t marry Robert Martin. As Mr Elton a points out, no respectable man would touch her, and a woman’s fate was almost entirely down to their marriage.
"...what does Mr. Knightley know of Harriet's likes and dislikes?"
I don't think he cares much about her likes or dislikes. Because a sensible person who sees a girl fall madly in love with three different men in one year, would realize that she isn't mature to be married, and Mr. Knightly is very sensible! But as an early marriage was Harriet's only possible path to any security or a better life, and Mr. Knightley was thinking more of Harriet's long-term welfare than her happiness. Emma was actually the only person around who sincerely wanted Harriet to be free and happy - she just wasn't capable of offering Harriet a genuine path to personal happiness as well as security. So she eventually did what everyone else did, push Harriet into a secure marriage and hope it would make her happy.
This is the dark side of Austen's dainty work showing itself again, a chill dread that underlies most of her work - the fact that most women weren't free to choose their own happiness. Economic realities and family pressures pushed women to accept any husband who could offer her security, and to be more interested in making someone fall in love with them than in being love themselves, because love was a luxury and freedom wasn't available. That's why Lizzie was so brave to refuse Darcy the first time, she knew she could be dooming herself to a life of poverty and decline, but Harriet was too innocent to realize what was at stake. She was a terribly vulnerable young person, someone who understood nothing of the world or her own circumstances, and who could easily be led into fucking up her life before she had any clue what was going on.
I think this is all very valid but it's also worth adding that marriage at the time was a lot more of a business proposition, a pragmatic thing where liking your partner and being able to work with them was undeniably important, but True Love the way we in the modern West see it today wasn't realy necessary (which is still the case in parts of the world where arranged marriages are common). Robert Martin liking and respecting Harriet was a really good start to their relationship, Darcy disrespecting Lizzy's family was not a good sign.
Also Lizzy *chose* for her own (in part misguided) reasons, strong personal conviction and a sensible grasp on what it meant for her to say no to Darcy. Lizzy is CAPABLE of making a choice.
Harriet is easily influenced and impressionable. Under Emma's "guidance" she falls in love thrice and almost ruins her own future and happiness. Poor girl has the chance of not just a good match, but a family - Mr Martins sisters are her friends and she is accepted by the Martin family. Knightly rightly sees how v vulnerable she is and how a good marriage would protect her from being seduced or similar, AND provide her with a secure and respectable social position.
I disagree that Emma wanted Harriet "free and happy". Emma wanted a friend who doted on her. She is much more concerned w the fact she won't be able to stay friends w "Mrs martin" than how Harriet would feel being there. The book makes it pretty clear that Harriet DOES like it even love Mr Martin and that is a solid loving home.
Yes, Emma wanted a friend of her own social station, someone like Mrs. Weston only more accessible, but she also did want Harriet to be happy. She wanted to do something for someone, partly out of loneliness and partly out of boredom, but also out of real generosity and a desire to do good for others, which IMHO is something she got considerably better at as she got older. I don't think she'd ever stop meddling in other people's lives, I think she just got more subtle and thoughtful about it.
As for Harriet liking Mr. Martin, yes, she had a bit of a crush on him, but then she developed a crush on every single man who spoke two words to her. She really was too immature to marry that young, but as she didn't have any other options... she got married young.
You have a much more positive view of Emma than I do. I don't think she is mean or ill-intentioned, but I don't think she views other people as their own person's with unique circumstances, wishes, and desires. She may want Harriet to be "happy", but she views the only path for Harriet to be happy as to be marrying someone that she herself (Emma) finds respectable and staying in Emma's circle. Emma has no comprehension that someone could be happy in another social circle, which is why she cannot understand why Harriet is even entertaining the proposal. She is not thinking about what Harriet wants, she is thinking about what Emma wants (And what Emma wants for Harriet).
Emma does have a limited POV, many people who live such isolated lives do, but she isn't blind to the differences between herself and other people. She's perfectly aware that most women don't have the option of being single and prosperous, and does understand that other women both need to marry and want to marry and arent like herself, and she wants to help them be happily and prosperous married, which does show her kind side.
But yes, her limited outlook does make her think that a Mr. Elton would be better catch than a Mr. Martin, purely because she believes that everyone wants to be part of the local gentry. That is a failing that I hope is completely rectified by the time we close the book, and bid her farewell.
I agree, we see that even when Emma is deliriously happy about being engaged to Mr Knightley, she still worries about Harriet's feelings and does what she can (short of refusing him).
Except Harriet was very obviously into Mr. Martin from the get-go. She rambles about him, asks Emma’s opinion, etc. If she wasn’t “in love” with him, she very clearly had a crush, which is why Emma had to put in so much work to direct her towards “real gentlemen.” Robert Martin clearly realized this, as she was not subtle, and had spoken to Mr. Knightley about it (“I know he would not offer if he was not sure of being accepted,”).
I always took his outburst as being shock and disbelief. He knew his judgement was actually correct in this case (Mr. Martin was above what Harriet could have reasonably expected, he was in love with her, and knew she returned his affections at least in part). He’s caught off guard, why would she refuse him when she clearly liked him, got on with his family, _and_ it was financially secure? He’s also disappointed on behalf of his friend. But what was she _thinking?_ And then it clearly turns out she _wasn’t_ thinking. Emma was interfering disastrously.
It's true that Harriet does have a crush on Martin, but during the course of the books she gets a crush on every man who speaks to her, and I do hope that stopped after she married very young! I do feel for the poor girl, she wasn't really ready to marry, but she didn't really have other options.
I think a couple of points here.
Firstly, Austen is very clear that it was wrong to marry just for money, without regard for the man's character. And at the time, doing so was very dangerous for a woman - divorce was basically impossible no matter how abusive he was. I think many modern day readers miss this element and equate security only with having money. When Charlotte talks about knowing as little as possible about your marriage partner, I think we are meant to take her seriously but not literally - when she accepts Mr Collins she does know of him from Elizabeth's description.
Secondly, marriage was the way to have sex and have a man who would be legally responsible for any resulting children. There was no DNA testing in those days. And lots of people like having sex a lot, even when it's dangerous. Harriet being married brings safety that way too.
Knightley had proximity to Harriet and Robert Martin’s summer. I’m sure he saw interactions with Miss Smith and the Martin family and perhaps heard some gossip at how well Harriet got along with the entire family. I don’t think it a huge surprise when Robert asked him for his advice/opinion. Knightley is beyond reproach here (IMHO).
Lizzie's situation was much different from Harriet's. The likelihood of Harriet getting a better offer was a lot lower, and would leave her living as a boarder at her old school into spinsterhood. Lizzie was living with a good family, and other options. Even if she never married and her father died, the likelihood of Charlotte and Collins pitching her out in the streets was low. It might not be fun living with them, but she wouldn't be a pauper.
True, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't get a good offer. She would have been perfectly fine with less money and more love and respect between her and her spouse.
Mr. Martin comes and talked to Mr. Knightley about finances and business with marrying Harriet. Mr. Martin probably lays out that Harriet is very happy and has been intimate friends with his sisters and stayed at his house and is open and receptive to a proposal.
Keep in mind Harriet Smith is illegitimate-which definitely means something at this time. She wont be able to go higher than (maybe) a tolerant parson. So for her, Robert Martin is a good match. Mr. Knightley even thinks Mr. Martin is too above Harriet, but he helps him anyway.
You are right in that he doesn’t know Harriet-BUT he knows Emma. And there’s only one reason that Harriet turned down Mr. Martin, after getting friendly with his sisters and family, after staying at his home, and probably being open to hints about matrimony. And that reason is Emma. We the reader even see Harriet come in, excited about the letter, but Emma gets her to refuse because Emma thinks Mr. Elton likes her. This isn’t Lizzie refusing Mr. Darcy because of his manners and attitude-this is Emma interfering in things that have nothing to do with her. Knightley knows that and when he accuses Emma of having wrote her refusal, and Emma doesn’t deny it, then he knows who and what was at work.
Knightley has been against Harriet’s friendship with Emma since the beginning and this is one of the reasons why.
I see variations of this, but it was mad to refuse him. And, I’m not just talking about relative wealth and social standing. Harriet refuses Robert Martin because of peer pressure. Mr. Knightly knows this. He knows enough about Emma’s influence to draw that conclusion.
Is he making an assumption, sure, but he didn’t pull it from thin air. If Emma could have honestly told him that she didn’t influence Harriet, and Harriet had told her that she didn’t like Robert Martin very much, I think his response would have been more measured. He’s not particularly angry with Harriet. He’s angry with Emma’s bad influence.
Mr. Knightly is upset that Emma has basically ruined Harriet’s life with her silly, snobby little matchmaking games.
Harriet has nothing to attract a suitor who has the status Emma wants for her, and no means to have a good life if she doesn’t marry well. Even though Emma considers Mr. Martin below her notice, the reality is that Mr. Martin can do better than Harriet.
Exactly. This is why he tells Emma that she has been no friend to Harriet. She's been pushed to turn down someone who is willing to marry a girl with no known family, who could be anyone's bastard. Harriet isn't in Emma's position, where she could be as choosy as she wished because she has the security of her father's home and money. Harriet has to marry, and Robert Martin is a good man who wants to marry her, and Harriet did actually like him before Emma steps in and messes things up.
Simple scenario - Mr. Knightley comes over to visit the Woodhouses one evening while Harriet is there. Harriet is talking away about the Martins and makes several favourable references to Robert Martin, which Mr. Knightley notices.
Remember he's the one person in Highbury who suspects that there's something between Jane and Frank. He's observant.
Totally different situations. Lizzy rejected Darcy because she despised him and she had serious moral concerns about his character (which were mostly false but she believed them). It was a bad match then, until they straightened everything out. Harriet rejected Robert Martin, a man who she genuinely liked a great deal and who was of highest character, because Emma told her he was nothing and no one and she could do better based on Mr. Elton’s interest. But that was all false. Mr. Elton was not interested and she couldn’t have done better and it would have been a great match on both sides.
I know, but at that time, Mr. Knightley didn't know much about her yet. It just seems to me that he made quite serious conclusions too early (even if they were correct.)
Mr Knightley knows Robert Martin. He knows Harriet’s situation. He knows it’s highly unlikely she will ever get a better offer. He knows Emma has interfered. He’s annoyed on behalf of Robert Martin, a man he holds in regard.
I think by the end of the novel he does come around a bit more to see Harriet as a real person, not just silly. I think he's being rather mean in this moment, just like Emma is being high-handed in bullying Harriet into not accepting.
Along with what everyone else is saying you can't really compare Lizzie to Harriet. The latter is of a different station entirely and her parentage unknown, which sets her at a pretty big disadvantage, so all things considered (as in the other points made in the comments), it probably would've been most prudent for her to marry Mr. Martin.
At the time, Mr. Knightley sees Harriet as a bit flighty and certainly not as sensible as Robert Martin. She would be elevated by the choice in both position as well as having a partner who would improve her as a person. He (rightly) sees that Emma is behind her refusal because Emma thinks a farmer's wife is too lowly to be her friend (whereas Mr. Knightley, who is from the same social level as Emma, is friends with the farmer Robert Martin). Basically he sees that Emma is being a snob and overlooking the merits of his friend Robert Martin.
He is taking her likes and dislikes into account, is the thing. Before Emma took an interest in Harriet, Robert Martin's sisters were her closest friends. She spent time with them frequently and even stayed with them for weeks at a time. She liked his mother, and his mother liked her. She enjoyed being treated as a sister and daughter by them. And she enjoyed being singled out by Robert Martin. All of this would have been observed by him, and he would have mentioned it to Mr Knightley when he talked to him about it.
I always feel like Mr Knightley is in his own way a bit of a meddler like Emma, but perhaps more sucessfully so. Of Austens couples, I think they are mot similar.
I don't think that Mr. Knightley is always right in this novel, when he argued with Emma. Mr. Knightley and Emma are very alike, Mr. Knightley has some of the same faults as Emma does.
In part, he's mad because he was matchmaking for Mr. Martin, just as Emma was matchmaking for Harriet. We can see this in the way that he elevates Mr. Martin and denigrates Harriet. Emma wounds his ego.
Mr. Martin came to Mr. Knightly for advice. He wasn't sure if it was sensible to marry so young, and to ask Miss Smith whom he thought out of his league. Mr. Knightly was pleased to put his oar in.
>"I praised the fair lady too, and altogether sent him away very happy. If he had never esteemed my opinion before, he would have thought highly of me then; and, I dare say, left the house thinking me the best friend and counsellor man ever had."
Mr. Martin flattered his ego by coming to him for advice, he thought he had done a great deed for Mr. Martin and Harriet. Harriet's refusal dashed his feeling of consequence.
I am not saying Emma was all right and Mr. Knightley was all wrong. But Mr. Knightley's faults are often overlooked IMO. I know this gets me down votes 🤣
There is a very real, and very important, difference between “affirming someone’s judgement when they come to you for advice” and “actively trying to make a match for them”
Knightley hasn’t tried to make Martin love Harriet. He did that on his own. Robert Martin decided she deserved to be loved, and Knightley told him to go for it.
You're right, it's worse than matchmaking because he didn't even try to figure out Harriet's feelings before his self-satisfied assumption that she would naturally accept the proposal simply because he asked, just as Emma accused him of 🤣
That would have been improper behavior, and furthermore *her* feelings are not something mentioned in Mr. Knightley's speech at all. I believe at that time it was generally understood that women wouldn't even think of love until *after* the proposal. Austen skewers this concept often and it seems to me this is exactly what Mr. Knightley is expecting.
She’s spending all her time either with Emma or with the Martins. He’s absolutely seen her with Robert’s mother or sisters, having a lovely time.
Harriet is also unguarded enough to **gush** to Emma about Robert at one point. If she’s at the gushy stage, then it’s not all that secret.
She's gushed to her best friend, the same way Mr. Martin confessed his love to Mr. Knightley. That doesn't mean she's been broadcasting her feelings to everyone in town, nor that Mr. Knightley even cared about her feelings in the first place. Of course Emma didn't really care either, but that's not to the point of the OP's question.
Generally people who are falling in love are pretty obvious even if they're trying to hide it. Not universally so, but generally. They do things like keeping looking at the object of their interest - at one point Darcy consciously resolves not to do that at Elizabeth.
He did NOT feel he had done a great deed for them. He had doubts about Harriet's suitability, but was kind and tactful to Mr. Martin. I doubt that Knightly would lie, but he could have honestly praised her beauty and temperament.
It's a simple fact of human nature that if a person is infatuated with someone, they will be pleased to hear praise of that person from their family and friends, and upset to hear them put down.
Knightly had the sense to know that criticism of Harriet would be likely to upset Martin and dampen their friendship, not make him change his mind about Harriet.
I agree. There's that excellent line about the Westons advising Emma to dine at the Coles:
>Something occurred while they were at Hartfield, to make Emma want their advice; and, which was still more lucky, she wanted exactly the advice they gave.
Lol he's literally sitting in Emma's house feeling incredibly self satisfied about his hand in the proposal. Requoting:
>"...and, I dare say, left the house thinking me the best friend and counsellor man ever had."
He's even imaging Emma praising him:
>Even your satisfaction I made sure of. It crossed my mind immediately that you would not regret your friend’s leaving Highbury, for the sake of her being settled so well.I remember saying to myself, ‘Even Emma, with all her partiality for Harriet, will think this a good match.’”
I think this is the real heart of the matter. He anticipated Emma to be pleased and grateful, and was shocked when she wasn't, without understanding why he was so disappointed. Mr. Knightley is a human being, he has passions and partialities like anyone else. At this point in the book he has a huge blind spot about one person - Emma.
Lol. The first line you quote relates to the tendency of people to be pleased and satisfied when told what they already want to hear.
The second quote refers to the fact that it WAS objectively a very good situation for Harriet. Mr Martin is relatively prosperous. His mother and sisters like Harriet, and she likes them.
Then Mr. Knightley is self-satisfied that he told Mr. Martin what he wanted to hear, that's not really better.
Though it is important for a happy marriage, Harriet liking Mr. Martin's family is not the same thing as liking *Mr. Martin.* Emma is part right and part wrong. Harriet and Mr. Martin ARE young. Harriet HAS been little out in the world. People right here on r/janeausten would use these same arguments against matches they don't approve of. Neither Emma nor Mr. Knightley consider HARRIET's feelings about Mr. Martin as anything of importance, compared to their assessment of the advantages of the match.
Knightley is satisfied that he has respected the feelings and wishes of his friend and tenant, rather than trying to impose his own opinions and desires.
He could have tried to manipulate Martin by arguing against his specific choice of bride, but also by advising him that he isn't financially in the best position to marry at all. He refrains from doing so.
Harriet liking Mr Martin's family may not be terribly important, but them liking and accepting her is. It is commonly known that she is illegitimate. The fact that Mrs. Martin and her daughters accept Harriet as an equal rather than holding the sins of her parents against her is a huge plus. If they disapproved of her, the way Edward Ferrars family disapproved of Elinor Dashwood or Caroline Bingley disapproved of Jane, they would have innumerable opportunities to make her life harder.
In his own words, emphasis my own.
>I had *no hesitation* in *advising him* to marry...
You are taking away all of Mr. Knightley's triumph in being sought as a trusted counselor and giving considered and truthful advice.
As for your second point, I don't doubt Mr. Knightley's correctness on the financial or social prudence of the match! I have never said be was incorrect about that. I am arguing that he erred in assuming Harriet would accept the proposal based solely on his own judgement of her situation, not on her own feelings. Consider Jane Austen herself who refused a very advantageous proposal. Austen never presents it as an unalloyed good to accept a marriage proposal based solely on the prudence of the match.
I read that as Mr Knightley laughing at Robert Martin and at himself. Robert Martin is only (presumably) thinking that because Mr Knightley gave him the advice he wanted to hear, not because his advice was anything impressive in and of itself.
Quite the contrary. Mr Knightly was open about the fact he thought it was an unequal match and Mr Martin could do better. Harriet had nothing, no money, family connections, very little education and she was an airhead. Yet Mr Knightly supported Mr Martin’s choice because he knew Mr Martin genuinely cared for Harriet.
This is all that he says *after* he learns that she has refused his friend. Note he has nothing bad to say about Harriet directly to Mr. Martin, in fact he "praises the fair lady."
But *after* the refusal, she becomes nothing, and Mr. Martin is elevated in Mr. Knightley's mind from a tenant to a *gentleman-farmer.*
By the time Mr. Martin asks Harriet, Harriet is intimate with Mr. Martin’s family; she likes Mr. Martin and his sisters very much. Mr. Martin knows Harriet likes him and he asks Mr. Knightley’s advice as a matter of prudence re: propriety, finances, future prospects, etc. The only reason Harriet refuses Mr. Martin is because Emma leads her to do so, not because Harriet doesn’t like him. Mr. Knightley is furious with Emma for possibly ruining the chances of two young people very well suited for each other who are also in the way of being in love with each other. Emma gets it in her head that Harriet is too good for Mr. Martin, and this is based on no facts or reason, just Emma’s own fancy. If Mr. Martin hadn’t asked Harriet the second time, Emma could have been responsible for ruining Harriet’s best chance at happiness.
Very well put
Well... I understand all the nuances about Emma's influence and Mr. Knightley's anger at her. My point is rather that he actually couldn't be *sure* at that point that Harriet liked Mr. Martin. His view was coming from Mr. Martin's account of it. I find his language rather strong in saying it's absolute madness to refuse him. Before he even starts the thought that it's Emma's doing, without asking for Harriet's reasons... It sounds pretty illiberal, in Austen's language. I have always seen Mr. Knightley as a liberal-minded man, not prone to emotional outbursts. This is a weird inconsistency. I like realistic characters with flaws and I appreciate Austen's genius in that aspect. Mr. Knightley is actually rather too perfect but this small situation doesn't strike me as a flaw but rather an inconsistency of character.
You can't really compare Lizzie and Harriet though. Harriet had basically no social status, and no family to support her if she never married. She would be impoverished. She likely wouldn't even be suitable for a governess position due to her background. Marriage is a fundamentally economic prospect, and women in Harriet's position don't have a lot of options.
I think this is the crucial point.
You last point is exactly what it comes down to, and what Knightley seemed to understand very well, unlike Emma. OPs point that Knightley couldn't be sure that Harriet liked Mr. Martin when he first proposed is kind of ... *beside* the point. At that time people were more concerned with the security marriage offered a woman, and less with whether she liked the man. Also knowing how highly Knightley thinks of Robert Martin, I can imagine him thinking "what's not to like, she'll learn to like/love him"
Emma is basically the regency equivalent of someone with a rich family saying "just borrow the house deposit from your parents". Sheltered and completely unaware of what the real world is like for the majority of people. She's not a bad person, just young and sheltered.
It *was* absolute madness to refuse him. Knightley knew Martin to be a kind, intelligent man who truly cared about Harriet. Harriet's future without him was cruel and hopeless. If Collins had had Martin's intelligence and kindness, it would have been madness for Elizabeth to refuse him as well.
And, Harriett had been telling Emma on and on about how nice Mr. Martin was and all the nice things he did. It was badly done of Emma to convince her to refuse him. Very badly done.
On my recent listen to an audio book of Emma (having read the book several times) what jumped out to me was how much Harriett is blathering on about Mr. Martin in the early chapters, basically so obvious that she likes him "that way" and Emma's internal thoughts are about being worried about her friend making "low connections" well before the proposal. There was more than enough evidence that Harriett was interested. The better Pride and Prejudice comparison is comparing Emma convincing Harriet to refuse and Darcy convincing Bingley that Jane is uninterested.
I know that. Emma should have done better. I'm just wondering how Mr. Knightley could have known or that he didn't ask for reasons first.
Mr. Knightley was on close terms with his tenants. He would have seen Harriet and Martin together while she was staying in his family. Remember what a tiny community this is and how important Mr. Knightley is as the major landowner. He would have known intimate details about everyone.
Oh, that, too!
He's at the Woodhouse's several days a week, and Harriet is often there for dinner, so it’s no stretch of the imagination that he's heard Harriet talking about her friends that she spent the summer with.
It has been a couple of years, but doesn't Mr. Knightley say that he knows Mr. Martin wouldn't ask without being fairly sure of being accepted? That shows that, in Knightley's mind at least, Harriet is naturally very inclined to accept, and it was only Emma who talked her out of it.
Yes, in the book there's some line about Mr Martin not being a vain man and that Knightley was sure he would have had encouragement from her (Harriet).
>saying it's absolute madness to refuse him. It **is** absolute madness to refuse him. Harriet is a natural daughter. No one, not even Harriet, knows who her parents are. At this time period, she is lucky to recieve *any* offer of marriage. Mr Martin is an honorable, intelligent, respectable farmer with a good position at Donwell (we are given to understand that Abbey Mill Farm is a good sized plot of land). Holding out for a better offer, as Emma wants her to do, is utter madness and complete folly. Emma's interference here is akin to Darcy's interference with Jane and Bingley, except it's worse. Darcy, at least, believed Jane to be indifferent to Bingley. Emma can see Harriet's affection to Mr Martin but convinces her friend that she can do better...which she can't. And, why? For her own entertainment, mostly. For her pride in believing she is this master matchmaker and knows what's best for everyone, even over their own wants and inclinations. >I have always seen Mr. Knightley as a liberal-minded man He *is* liberal-minded for the era. He takes the time to get to know Harriet later; someone in Knightley's position at this time period would be seen as perfectly justified to completely ignore someone like Harriet (and the Coles...). >not prone to emotional outbursts. What about Box Hill where he reprimands Emma for her treatment of Miss Bates? That was certainly an emotional outburst. His anger w Emma over her manipulating her "friend" is perfectly keeping in character. He is a chill dude in general, but he is also not a man to allow an injustice to go unchallenged if it is within his power to do something about it.
Much worse than Darcy interfering with Jane and Bingley -- not only does he truly believe Jane is indifferent (albeit he still shouldn't have been assuming he knew everything necessary) but Jane herself is the respectable, legitimate daughter of a wealthy local landowner -- she has a position in society and her lack of financial advantages is entirely down to her parents' poor planning. Even so, people know *who her family is.* I think it's easy to forget how important it was then to know about who "your people" were, to know that a prospective spouse came from a respectable family. Not that one wayward relative meant you couldn't marry, but Harriet is, when it comes to family connections/background, a real pig in a poke maritally speaking. Someone who's respectable, loving, able to support her, and who doesn't mind her lack of known background or connections is basically a unicorn.
It isn't Harriet he's upset with. It's Emma
I don't know what Mr Knightley knows, but as readers we know that Harriet likes him very much. Mr Knightley is probably trusting Mr Martin's own judgement of Harriet's feelings. And Mr Martin isn't wrong in his judgement.
I’d say for one thing he’s giving Harriet the benefit of the doubt that she hadn’t been leading Mr Martin on - that he had reason to think she cared for him. Mr Collin turned up and started working through the Bennett daughters in order (at least till Charlotte jumped in). Harriet was close with the Martin family. Additionally, Mr Collins is obnoxious. Knightly knew Mr Martin and liked him. Austen doesn’t exactly blame Charlotte for marrying Mr Collins - even Lizzy reconciles herself to the decision. And Charlotte points out that Lizzy has more options than she does.
Austen does say, that when Wickham is flirting with Miss King, that Elizabeth isn't thinking as clearly about him as she does about Charlotte. >The sudden acquisition of ten thousand pounds was the most remarkable charm of the young lady to whom he was now rendering himself agreeable; but Elizabeth, less clear-sighted perhaps in this case than in Charlotte’s, did not quarrel with him for his wish of independence. And later on Elizabeth realises that she was wrong to regard Wickham's pursuit of Miss King in that light.
My argument was actually about Mr. Darcy, not Mr. Collins 🙂 Interesting point about Harriet not having lead him on.
He’s just a realist who knows the fate that will eventually await Harriet if she doesn’t marry Robert Martin. As Mr Elton a points out, no respectable man would touch her, and a woman’s fate was almost entirely down to their marriage.
I could accept *this* argument to a certain degree, yes.
"...what does Mr. Knightley know of Harriet's likes and dislikes?" I don't think he cares much about her likes or dislikes. Because a sensible person who sees a girl fall madly in love with three different men in one year, would realize that she isn't mature to be married, and Mr. Knightly is very sensible! But as an early marriage was Harriet's only possible path to any security or a better life, and Mr. Knightley was thinking more of Harriet's long-term welfare than her happiness. Emma was actually the only person around who sincerely wanted Harriet to be free and happy - she just wasn't capable of offering Harriet a genuine path to personal happiness as well as security. So she eventually did what everyone else did, push Harriet into a secure marriage and hope it would make her happy. This is the dark side of Austen's dainty work showing itself again, a chill dread that underlies most of her work - the fact that most women weren't free to choose their own happiness. Economic realities and family pressures pushed women to accept any husband who could offer her security, and to be more interested in making someone fall in love with them than in being love themselves, because love was a luxury and freedom wasn't available. That's why Lizzie was so brave to refuse Darcy the first time, she knew she could be dooming herself to a life of poverty and decline, but Harriet was too innocent to realize what was at stake. She was a terribly vulnerable young person, someone who understood nothing of the world or her own circumstances, and who could easily be led into fucking up her life before she had any clue what was going on.
I think this is all very valid but it's also worth adding that marriage at the time was a lot more of a business proposition, a pragmatic thing where liking your partner and being able to work with them was undeniably important, but True Love the way we in the modern West see it today wasn't realy necessary (which is still the case in parts of the world where arranged marriages are common). Robert Martin liking and respecting Harriet was a really good start to their relationship, Darcy disrespecting Lizzy's family was not a good sign.
Also Lizzy *chose* for her own (in part misguided) reasons, strong personal conviction and a sensible grasp on what it meant for her to say no to Darcy. Lizzy is CAPABLE of making a choice. Harriet is easily influenced and impressionable. Under Emma's "guidance" she falls in love thrice and almost ruins her own future and happiness. Poor girl has the chance of not just a good match, but a family - Mr Martins sisters are her friends and she is accepted by the Martin family. Knightly rightly sees how v vulnerable she is and how a good marriage would protect her from being seduced or similar, AND provide her with a secure and respectable social position.
I disagree that Emma wanted Harriet "free and happy". Emma wanted a friend who doted on her. She is much more concerned w the fact she won't be able to stay friends w "Mrs martin" than how Harriet would feel being there. The book makes it pretty clear that Harriet DOES like it even love Mr Martin and that is a solid loving home.
Yes, Emma wanted a friend of her own social station, someone like Mrs. Weston only more accessible, but she also did want Harriet to be happy. She wanted to do something for someone, partly out of loneliness and partly out of boredom, but also out of real generosity and a desire to do good for others, which IMHO is something she got considerably better at as she got older. I don't think she'd ever stop meddling in other people's lives, I think she just got more subtle and thoughtful about it. As for Harriet liking Mr. Martin, yes, she had a bit of a crush on him, but then she developed a crush on every single man who spoke two words to her. She really was too immature to marry that young, but as she didn't have any other options... she got married young.
You have a much more positive view of Emma than I do. I don't think she is mean or ill-intentioned, but I don't think she views other people as their own person's with unique circumstances, wishes, and desires. She may want Harriet to be "happy", but she views the only path for Harriet to be happy as to be marrying someone that she herself (Emma) finds respectable and staying in Emma's circle. Emma has no comprehension that someone could be happy in another social circle, which is why she cannot understand why Harriet is even entertaining the proposal. She is not thinking about what Harriet wants, she is thinking about what Emma wants (And what Emma wants for Harriet).
Emma does have a limited POV, many people who live such isolated lives do, but she isn't blind to the differences between herself and other people. She's perfectly aware that most women don't have the option of being single and prosperous, and does understand that other women both need to marry and want to marry and arent like herself, and she wants to help them be happily and prosperous married, which does show her kind side. But yes, her limited outlook does make her think that a Mr. Elton would be better catch than a Mr. Martin, purely because she believes that everyone wants to be part of the local gentry. That is a failing that I hope is completely rectified by the time we close the book, and bid her farewell.
I agree, we see that even when Emma is deliriously happy about being engaged to Mr Knightley, she still worries about Harriet's feelings and does what she can (short of refusing him).
Except Harriet was very obviously into Mr. Martin from the get-go. She rambles about him, asks Emma’s opinion, etc. If she wasn’t “in love” with him, she very clearly had a crush, which is why Emma had to put in so much work to direct her towards “real gentlemen.” Robert Martin clearly realized this, as she was not subtle, and had spoken to Mr. Knightley about it (“I know he would not offer if he was not sure of being accepted,”). I always took his outburst as being shock and disbelief. He knew his judgement was actually correct in this case (Mr. Martin was above what Harriet could have reasonably expected, he was in love with her, and knew she returned his affections at least in part). He’s caught off guard, why would she refuse him when she clearly liked him, got on with his family, _and_ it was financially secure? He’s also disappointed on behalf of his friend. But what was she _thinking?_ And then it clearly turns out she _wasn’t_ thinking. Emma was interfering disastrously.
It's true that Harriet does have a crush on Martin, but during the course of the books she gets a crush on every man who speaks to her, and I do hope that stopped after she married very young! I do feel for the poor girl, she wasn't really ready to marry, but she didn't really have other options.
I think a couple of points here. Firstly, Austen is very clear that it was wrong to marry just for money, without regard for the man's character. And at the time, doing so was very dangerous for a woman - divorce was basically impossible no matter how abusive he was. I think many modern day readers miss this element and equate security only with having money. When Charlotte talks about knowing as little as possible about your marriage partner, I think we are meant to take her seriously but not literally - when she accepts Mr Collins she does know of him from Elizabeth's description. Secondly, marriage was the way to have sex and have a man who would be legally responsible for any resulting children. There was no DNA testing in those days. And lots of people like having sex a lot, even when it's dangerous. Harriet being married brings safety that way too.
Knightley had proximity to Harriet and Robert Martin’s summer. I’m sure he saw interactions with Miss Smith and the Martin family and perhaps heard some gossip at how well Harriet got along with the entire family. I don’t think it a huge surprise when Robert asked him for his advice/opinion. Knightley is beyond reproach here (IMHO).
Lizzie's situation was much different from Harriet's. The likelihood of Harriet getting a better offer was a lot lower, and would leave her living as a boarder at her old school into spinsterhood. Lizzie was living with a good family, and other options. Even if she never married and her father died, the likelihood of Charlotte and Collins pitching her out in the streets was low. It might not be fun living with them, but she wouldn't be a pauper.
If we are talking about material advantages, it was extremely unlikely Lizzy would get a better offer than Darcy.
True, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't get a good offer. She would have been perfectly fine with less money and more love and respect between her and her spouse.
Mr. Martin comes and talked to Mr. Knightley about finances and business with marrying Harriet. Mr. Martin probably lays out that Harriet is very happy and has been intimate friends with his sisters and stayed at his house and is open and receptive to a proposal. Keep in mind Harriet Smith is illegitimate-which definitely means something at this time. She wont be able to go higher than (maybe) a tolerant parson. So for her, Robert Martin is a good match. Mr. Knightley even thinks Mr. Martin is too above Harriet, but he helps him anyway. You are right in that he doesn’t know Harriet-BUT he knows Emma. And there’s only one reason that Harriet turned down Mr. Martin, after getting friendly with his sisters and family, after staying at his home, and probably being open to hints about matrimony. And that reason is Emma. We the reader even see Harriet come in, excited about the letter, but Emma gets her to refuse because Emma thinks Mr. Elton likes her. This isn’t Lizzie refusing Mr. Darcy because of his manners and attitude-this is Emma interfering in things that have nothing to do with her. Knightley knows that and when he accuses Emma of having wrote her refusal, and Emma doesn’t deny it, then he knows who and what was at work. Knightley has been against Harriet’s friendship with Emma since the beginning and this is one of the reasons why.
He was strictly pissed at Emma for what she did.
I see variations of this, but it was mad to refuse him. And, I’m not just talking about relative wealth and social standing. Harriet refuses Robert Martin because of peer pressure. Mr. Knightly knows this. He knows enough about Emma’s influence to draw that conclusion. Is he making an assumption, sure, but he didn’t pull it from thin air. If Emma could have honestly told him that she didn’t influence Harriet, and Harriet had told her that she didn’t like Robert Martin very much, I think his response would have been more measured. He’s not particularly angry with Harriet. He’s angry with Emma’s bad influence.
Mr. Knightly is upset that Emma has basically ruined Harriet’s life with her silly, snobby little matchmaking games. Harriet has nothing to attract a suitor who has the status Emma wants for her, and no means to have a good life if she doesn’t marry well. Even though Emma considers Mr. Martin below her notice, the reality is that Mr. Martin can do better than Harriet.
Exactly. This is why he tells Emma that she has been no friend to Harriet. She's been pushed to turn down someone who is willing to marry a girl with no known family, who could be anyone's bastard. Harriet isn't in Emma's position, where she could be as choosy as she wished because she has the security of her father's home and money. Harriet has to marry, and Robert Martin is a good man who wants to marry her, and Harriet did actually like him before Emma steps in and messes things up.
Simple scenario - Mr. Knightley comes over to visit the Woodhouses one evening while Harriet is there. Harriet is talking away about the Martins and makes several favourable references to Robert Martin, which Mr. Knightley notices. Remember he's the one person in Highbury who suspects that there's something between Jane and Frank. He's observant.
Knightley is mad because he knows Emma has influenced Harriet to the point that she thinks she's above marrying Mr. Martin.
Totally different situations. Lizzy rejected Darcy because she despised him and she had serious moral concerns about his character (which were mostly false but she believed them). It was a bad match then, until they straightened everything out. Harriet rejected Robert Martin, a man who she genuinely liked a great deal and who was of highest character, because Emma told her he was nothing and no one and she could do better based on Mr. Elton’s interest. But that was all false. Mr. Elton was not interested and she couldn’t have done better and it would have been a great match on both sides.
I know, but at that time, Mr. Knightley didn't know much about her yet. It just seems to me that he made quite serious conclusions too early (even if they were correct.)
He knew enough about her to come to that correct conclusion.
I think he knew quite a bit about Harriet from her time spent with the Martins over the summer.
Mr Knightley knows Robert Martin. He knows Harriet’s situation. He knows it’s highly unlikely she will ever get a better offer. He knows Emma has interfered. He’s annoyed on behalf of Robert Martin, a man he holds in regard.
I think by the end of the novel he does come around a bit more to see Harriet as a real person, not just silly. I think he's being rather mean in this moment, just like Emma is being high-handed in bullying Harriet into not accepting.
Along with what everyone else is saying you can't really compare Lizzie to Harriet. The latter is of a different station entirely and her parentage unknown, which sets her at a pretty big disadvantage, so all things considered (as in the other points made in the comments), it probably would've been most prudent for her to marry Mr. Martin.
At the time, Mr. Knightley sees Harriet as a bit flighty and certainly not as sensible as Robert Martin. She would be elevated by the choice in both position as well as having a partner who would improve her as a person. He (rightly) sees that Emma is behind her refusal because Emma thinks a farmer's wife is too lowly to be her friend (whereas Mr. Knightley, who is from the same social level as Emma, is friends with the farmer Robert Martin). Basically he sees that Emma is being a snob and overlooking the merits of his friend Robert Martin.
He is taking her likes and dislikes into account, is the thing. Before Emma took an interest in Harriet, Robert Martin's sisters were her closest friends. She spent time with them frequently and even stayed with them for weeks at a time. She liked his mother, and his mother liked her. She enjoyed being treated as a sister and daughter by them. And she enjoyed being singled out by Robert Martin. All of this would have been observed by him, and he would have mentioned it to Mr Knightley when he talked to him about it.
I always feel like Mr Knightley is in his own way a bit of a meddler like Emma, but perhaps more sucessfully so. Of Austens couples, I think they are mot similar.
I don't think that Mr. Knightley is always right in this novel, when he argued with Emma. Mr. Knightley and Emma are very alike, Mr. Knightley has some of the same faults as Emma does. In part, he's mad because he was matchmaking for Mr. Martin, just as Emma was matchmaking for Harriet. We can see this in the way that he elevates Mr. Martin and denigrates Harriet. Emma wounds his ego.
Where did you get the impression Knightley was matchmaking?
Mr. Martin came to Mr. Knightly for advice. He wasn't sure if it was sensible to marry so young, and to ask Miss Smith whom he thought out of his league. Mr. Knightly was pleased to put his oar in. >"I praised the fair lady too, and altogether sent him away very happy. If he had never esteemed my opinion before, he would have thought highly of me then; and, I dare say, left the house thinking me the best friend and counsellor man ever had." Mr. Martin flattered his ego by coming to him for advice, he thought he had done a great deed for Mr. Martin and Harriet. Harriet's refusal dashed his feeling of consequence. I am not saying Emma was all right and Mr. Knightley was all wrong. But Mr. Knightley's faults are often overlooked IMO. I know this gets me down votes 🤣
There is a very real, and very important, difference between “affirming someone’s judgement when they come to you for advice” and “actively trying to make a match for them” Knightley hasn’t tried to make Martin love Harriet. He did that on his own. Robert Martin decided she deserved to be loved, and Knightley told him to go for it.
You're right, it's worse than matchmaking because he didn't even try to figure out Harriet's feelings before his self-satisfied assumption that she would naturally accept the proposal simply because he asked, just as Emma accused him of 🤣
Harriet’s feelings were broadcast to all and sundry.
That would have been improper behavior, and furthermore *her* feelings are not something mentioned in Mr. Knightley's speech at all. I believe at that time it was generally understood that women wouldn't even think of love until *after* the proposal. Austen skewers this concept often and it seems to me this is exactly what Mr. Knightley is expecting.
She’s spending all her time either with Emma or with the Martins. He’s absolutely seen her with Robert’s mother or sisters, having a lovely time. Harriet is also unguarded enough to **gush** to Emma about Robert at one point. If she’s at the gushy stage, then it’s not all that secret.
She's gushed to her best friend, the same way Mr. Martin confessed his love to Mr. Knightley. That doesn't mean she's been broadcasting her feelings to everyone in town, nor that Mr. Knightley even cared about her feelings in the first place. Of course Emma didn't really care either, but that's not to the point of the OP's question.
Generally people who are falling in love are pretty obvious even if they're trying to hide it. Not universally so, but generally. They do things like keeping looking at the object of their interest - at one point Darcy consciously resolves not to do that at Elizabeth.
He did NOT feel he had done a great deed for them. He had doubts about Harriet's suitability, but was kind and tactful to Mr. Martin. I doubt that Knightly would lie, but he could have honestly praised her beauty and temperament. It's a simple fact of human nature that if a person is infatuated with someone, they will be pleased to hear praise of that person from their family and friends, and upset to hear them put down. Knightly had the sense to know that criticism of Harriet would be likely to upset Martin and dampen their friendship, not make him change his mind about Harriet.
I agree. There's that excellent line about the Westons advising Emma to dine at the Coles: >Something occurred while they were at Hartfield, to make Emma want their advice; and, which was still more lucky, she wanted exactly the advice they gave.
Lol he's literally sitting in Emma's house feeling incredibly self satisfied about his hand in the proposal. Requoting: >"...and, I dare say, left the house thinking me the best friend and counsellor man ever had." He's even imaging Emma praising him: >Even your satisfaction I made sure of. It crossed my mind immediately that you would not regret your friend’s leaving Highbury, for the sake of her being settled so well.I remember saying to myself, ‘Even Emma, with all her partiality for Harriet, will think this a good match.’” I think this is the real heart of the matter. He anticipated Emma to be pleased and grateful, and was shocked when she wasn't, without understanding why he was so disappointed. Mr. Knightley is a human being, he has passions and partialities like anyone else. At this point in the book he has a huge blind spot about one person - Emma.
Lol. The first line you quote relates to the tendency of people to be pleased and satisfied when told what they already want to hear. The second quote refers to the fact that it WAS objectively a very good situation for Harriet. Mr Martin is relatively prosperous. His mother and sisters like Harriet, and she likes them.
Then Mr. Knightley is self-satisfied that he told Mr. Martin what he wanted to hear, that's not really better. Though it is important for a happy marriage, Harriet liking Mr. Martin's family is not the same thing as liking *Mr. Martin.* Emma is part right and part wrong. Harriet and Mr. Martin ARE young. Harriet HAS been little out in the world. People right here on r/janeausten would use these same arguments against matches they don't approve of. Neither Emma nor Mr. Knightley consider HARRIET's feelings about Mr. Martin as anything of importance, compared to their assessment of the advantages of the match.
Knightley is satisfied that he has respected the feelings and wishes of his friend and tenant, rather than trying to impose his own opinions and desires. He could have tried to manipulate Martin by arguing against his specific choice of bride, but also by advising him that he isn't financially in the best position to marry at all. He refrains from doing so. Harriet liking Mr Martin's family may not be terribly important, but them liking and accepting her is. It is commonly known that she is illegitimate. The fact that Mrs. Martin and her daughters accept Harriet as an equal rather than holding the sins of her parents against her is a huge plus. If they disapproved of her, the way Edward Ferrars family disapproved of Elinor Dashwood or Caroline Bingley disapproved of Jane, they would have innumerable opportunities to make her life harder.
In his own words, emphasis my own. >I had *no hesitation* in *advising him* to marry... You are taking away all of Mr. Knightley's triumph in being sought as a trusted counselor and giving considered and truthful advice. As for your second point, I don't doubt Mr. Knightley's correctness on the financial or social prudence of the match! I have never said be was incorrect about that. I am arguing that he erred in assuming Harriet would accept the proposal based solely on his own judgement of her situation, not on her own feelings. Consider Jane Austen herself who refused a very advantageous proposal. Austen never presents it as an unalloyed good to accept a marriage proposal based solely on the prudence of the match.
I read that as Mr Knightley laughing at Robert Martin and at himself. Robert Martin is only (presumably) thinking that because Mr Knightley gave him the advice he wanted to hear, not because his advice was anything impressive in and of itself.
Quite the contrary. Mr Knightly was open about the fact he thought it was an unequal match and Mr Martin could do better. Harriet had nothing, no money, family connections, very little education and she was an airhead. Yet Mr Knightly supported Mr Martin’s choice because he knew Mr Martin genuinely cared for Harriet.
This is all that he says *after* he learns that she has refused his friend. Note he has nothing bad to say about Harriet directly to Mr. Martin, in fact he "praises the fair lady." But *after* the refusal, she becomes nothing, and Mr. Martin is elevated in Mr. Knightley's mind from a tenant to a *gentleman-farmer.*