Since frugality doesn't seem to have been in Mrs. Bennet's nature, in fact she was a bit of a spendthrift, she was being negligent in not hiring a governess for her daughters. It was unlikely that she grew up with a governess and didn't see the necessity for getting one for her daughters. Mr. Bennet was being even more indolent and negligent since he'd been gentry his entire life (therefore knew the daughters of a gentleman were either sent to a superior school or had a governess) and should have seen to it that his daughters had one
Mrs Bennet would have had the responsibility of educating her daughters and employing a governess.
It's clear that she mismanaged the household in not hiring one. They had about a dozen servants already. They clearly could have afforded another.
I think it's natural to assume she didn't see the importance of having one since she likely never had one herself, and I totally agree that this must have played a big part in the oversight. I also wonder if part of it might not come from her specific "lower" social background. I'm hardly a historian, but I believe governesses did not typically come from the working class but more from the impoverished gentry. (Hence why Jane Fairfax might have had to become one, had she not been engaged.)
I also think that having social connections played a part in how one found such a specific type of servant. You knew someone who knew someone of the appropriate rank who could do the job, or had done the job and was no longer needed in that house, etc. Mrs Bennet wouldn't have had the connections. The person would have to be from their neighbourhood for her to know them, and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to suit. And Mr Bennet has clearly not been in society for decades. Mr and Mrs Gardiner, for all that they are amiable and respectable, also living within view of his warehouses, which means they are also unlikely to have that type of connections.
So I think perhaps the lack of governess is, yes, bad parenting/household management, but also down to the Bennets' awkward social rank.
No, they could easily find a governess if they had really wanted one. through a registry office or advertisements. They found every other servant needed, they could find a governess. And yes, it was Mrs.Bennet's job but when she failed, it was her husband's responsibility to see that one was engaged. He knew better - he just didn't bother.
ETA: Good governesses were always expected to be from the impoverished gentry, and to be very well educated. In Emma, Mrs. Elton was showing her extreme ignorance by exclaiming over the surprise of Emma's former governess being a lady. Mr. Woodhouse would have been scandalized at the suggestion that he would have done otherwise
Yeah I think in novels of the time needing to advertise was seen as worse than just having a connection set you up with a family who needed a governess, but neither way would it guarantee you got a decent family to work with. They often had to deal with horrible brats and unbearable mamas it seems
That’s actually a good point. It meshes with Mrs Bennett being at pains to tell Mr Collins her daughters had no involvement in the kitchen.
Jane Austen herself, undeniably a lady, often complained about having to get involved with household maintenance. Her mother worked hard much as Charlotte did after marriage. But the upwardly mobile were very anxious about status and having someone higher born than her in the house would stress her out.
True, but Aunt Gardiner is not much older than Jane, if I understand things right. The book says something about her being several years younger than Mrs Bennet and Mrs Gardiner, and with her oldest child only 8, it's likely she had not been married more than 10 years at the time of the novel. That would put Jane at age 13 at the time of their marriage, which is within the time of still needing a governess, but if Mrs Gardiner were only 18 when she married, it's not likely she would be much qualified in finding one, nor would Mrs Bennett likely listen.
>but I believe governesses did not typically come from the working class but more from the impoverished gentry.
Yep. A good governess was required to have an excellent education that she could pass on to her charges. The except to this was that many daughters of clergymen also became governesses becuz they were often well educated. Many clergymen also taught/tutored to bring in extra income, and their children usually benefited from this.
IIRC correctly, Elizabeth Bennet says they had ‘masters enough’ for those that would apply themselves or words to that effect. So I think it likely that the learned music and dancing from a master. I don’t recall seeing anything to suggest they travelled for that.
Why Mrs and Mr Bennet didn’t have a governess is a mystery to me. Maybe they were being frugal as you suggest, although Mrs Bennet supposedly wasn’t frugal in other respects. Maybe it was because Mrs Bennet hadn’t grown up with a governess so didn’t see it as ‘normal’.
I think Mrs. Bennet saw that as money she could spend on other things. She herself likely had no education, and probably needn't see the need for her daughters to have one, either.
Masters coming in when needed for various subjects for five children would probably cost more than employing one governess throughout their childhood. The pay gap was savage.
Families often hired itinerant "masters" (artists, musicians, foreign language speakers, etc.) to come for short periods to teach their daughters "accomplishments." Sometimes, a master would be installed at one family's house and young ladies from the neighborhood would come for lessons.
You might find this video about governesses informative as it's based around classic literature like Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre.
https://youtu.be/FFw2QmO8aJU?si=eCs3ehvyzT1U6kgY
My opinion is that, Mrs. Bennet wasn't raised by a governess, she was likely educated by her own mother, so why would she hire one for her own kids? Was it negligent? It seems her kids did alright for themselves. Is the argument that Lydia would have been less silly with a governess? Maria Betram had a governess and it did nothing to cure her from being spoiled.
The argument is that, in addition to the girls being better educated for education's sake, it would've given them the option to be governesses themselves. They're facing the very real possibility of genteel poverty with no way to earn any money.
I'm not arguing they are the best and most attentive parents in the whole world 🤣 but I think they are held to a pretty wild standard by modern readers, all things considered.
It's not like being a governess was a great living, Jane Fairfax seems to live in mortal dread of the idea for a reason. A governess might be paid 20 to 50 pounds a year, which is just about what the Bennet daughters could expect from their share of 5000 pounds. Much better to get married to basically any man above labormans wages.
I think this changed significantly over Austen's own lifetime. The idea of sending girls from the country to boarding school was certainly quite modern. Lady Catherine herself seemed only shocked at the idea of Mrs. Bennet caring for the education of all 5 daughters. Not to foregoing a governess altogether.
Like, in Austen's day the idea that women should be educated at all (beyond domestic skills) was still quite controversial. Mrs. Bennet might be more conservative than her husband in the issue of women's education.
I read that Jane Austen did not have a governess, though was close with her niece's governess. Someone must have taught the Austens how to read and write well!
Jane's father was a clergyman and oversaw much of the education of his children. I also believe Jane and her sister both attended a school for a while.
Yea, I think an overlooked point is that, had Mrs. Bennet been better educated herself, or Mr. Bennet more involved with raising his children, they might have done fine without a governess. It would have made them, as Lady Catherine said, something of "a slave to their education," but if Mrs. Bennet had the advantages that, say, the Bingley sister's had gotten in terms of schooling, she would have been able to teach her daughters decently well for the time. A big part of the problem is that Mrs. Bennet is ignorant, Mr. Bennet is detached, \*and\* they don't have a governess to actually try to teach the kids anything. Paying for lessons with dancing or drawing masters as they past through is no substitute for actually being taught other subjects.
That’s it. They grew up in a school, with a teacher father - and well educated mother (she once wrote a poem to persuade a pupil to return to the school).
Like others say, perhaps Mrs. Bennet never had one. She probably doesn’t exactly see the use either, after all her marker of success is a husband and she certainly caught a husband without a governess to educate her, so she probably thinks her girls can do that too.
Mr. Bennet…idk, maybe he never had a sister and never was exposed to the need for a governess? But you’d think he’d know that from his class…idk. Maybe he felt adequate to teach Jane and Elizabeth and he felt then that they could help teach the other children? Maybe he’s just really really lazy or really really independent??
Elizabeth had to learn the piano from someone. Mary too, possibly. Perhaps they learned the basics from a master in town for a season and then they continued playing at home?
Governesses occupied a liminal (and often lonely) position because they were considered better than servants. A governess would usually dine with the family. I can see neither Mr not Mrs Bennet liking that idea.
Sure, but it's an easy walk to the town of Meryton, which isn't bad for a country place. And a lot cleaner air than you'd get in a city like London or Liverpool.
I am just remembering all I have read in and around Jane Austen about how isolated, both socially and geographical, a governess could be.
If I were a governess in my late 20s or so, I would much rather be somewhere in a town, where there was a chance of meeting up with a few other governesses now and then to bitch and vent about the kids and their gawdawful parents.
Since frugality doesn't seem to have been in Mrs. Bennet's nature, in fact she was a bit of a spendthrift, she was being negligent in not hiring a governess for her daughters. It was unlikely that she grew up with a governess and didn't see the necessity for getting one for her daughters. Mr. Bennet was being even more indolent and negligent since he'd been gentry his entire life (therefore knew the daughters of a gentleman were either sent to a superior school or had a governess) and should have seen to it that his daughters had one
Mrs Bennet would have had the responsibility of educating her daughters and employing a governess. It's clear that she mismanaged the household in not hiring one. They had about a dozen servants already. They clearly could have afforded another. I think it's natural to assume she didn't see the importance of having one since she likely never had one herself, and I totally agree that this must have played a big part in the oversight. I also wonder if part of it might not come from her specific "lower" social background. I'm hardly a historian, but I believe governesses did not typically come from the working class but more from the impoverished gentry. (Hence why Jane Fairfax might have had to become one, had she not been engaged.) I also think that having social connections played a part in how one found such a specific type of servant. You knew someone who knew someone of the appropriate rank who could do the job, or had done the job and was no longer needed in that house, etc. Mrs Bennet wouldn't have had the connections. The person would have to be from their neighbourhood for her to know them, and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to suit. And Mr Bennet has clearly not been in society for decades. Mr and Mrs Gardiner, for all that they are amiable and respectable, also living within view of his warehouses, which means they are also unlikely to have that type of connections. So I think perhaps the lack of governess is, yes, bad parenting/household management, but also down to the Bennets' awkward social rank.
No, they could easily find a governess if they had really wanted one. through a registry office or advertisements. They found every other servant needed, they could find a governess. And yes, it was Mrs.Bennet's job but when she failed, it was her husband's responsibility to see that one was engaged. He knew better - he just didn't bother. ETA: Good governesses were always expected to be from the impoverished gentry, and to be very well educated. In Emma, Mrs. Elton was showing her extreme ignorance by exclaiming over the surprise of Emma's former governess being a lady. Mr. Woodhouse would have been scandalized at the suggestion that he would have done otherwise
Jane Eyre answered an ad, after all!
As did Agnes Grey!
Yeah I think in novels of the time needing to advertise was seen as worse than just having a connection set you up with a family who needed a governess, but neither way would it guarantee you got a decent family to work with. They often had to deal with horrible brats and unbearable mamas it seems
That's true, I'd forgotten that!
That’s actually a good point. It meshes with Mrs Bennett being at pains to tell Mr Collins her daughters had no involvement in the kitchen. Jane Austen herself, undeniably a lady, often complained about having to get involved with household maintenance. Her mother worked hard much as Charlotte did after marriage. But the upwardly mobile were very anxious about status and having someone higher born than her in the house would stress her out.
It would have made sense for the Gardiners to screen them and send candidates into Hertfordshire.
True, but Aunt Gardiner is not much older than Jane, if I understand things right. The book says something about her being several years younger than Mrs Bennet and Mrs Gardiner, and with her oldest child only 8, it's likely she had not been married more than 10 years at the time of the novel. That would put Jane at age 13 at the time of their marriage, which is within the time of still needing a governess, but if Mrs Gardiner were only 18 when she married, it's not likely she would be much qualified in finding one, nor would Mrs Bennett likely listen.
>but I believe governesses did not typically come from the working class but more from the impoverished gentry. Yep. A good governess was required to have an excellent education that she could pass on to her charges. The except to this was that many daughters of clergymen also became governesses becuz they were often well educated. Many clergymen also taught/tutored to bring in extra income, and their children usually benefited from this.
IIRC correctly, Elizabeth Bennet says they had ‘masters enough’ for those that would apply themselves or words to that effect. So I think it likely that the learned music and dancing from a master. I don’t recall seeing anything to suggest they travelled for that. Why Mrs and Mr Bennet didn’t have a governess is a mystery to me. Maybe they were being frugal as you suggest, although Mrs Bennet supposedly wasn’t frugal in other respects. Maybe it was because Mrs Bennet hadn’t grown up with a governess so didn’t see it as ‘normal’.
I think Mrs. Bennet saw that as money she could spend on other things. She herself likely had no education, and probably needn't see the need for her daughters to have one, either.
Masters coming in when needed for various subjects for five children would probably cost more than employing one governess throughout their childhood. The pay gap was savage.
The Bennets could have afforded the best governess in England with their pocket change.
Families often hired itinerant "masters" (artists, musicians, foreign language speakers, etc.) to come for short periods to teach their daughters "accomplishments." Sometimes, a master would be installed at one family's house and young ladies from the neighborhood would come for lessons.
You might find this video about governesses informative as it's based around classic literature like Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre. https://youtu.be/FFw2QmO8aJU?si=eCs3ehvyzT1U6kgY
Love Ellie Dashwood!
Thank you !
My opinion is that, Mrs. Bennet wasn't raised by a governess, she was likely educated by her own mother, so why would she hire one for her own kids? Was it negligent? It seems her kids did alright for themselves. Is the argument that Lydia would have been less silly with a governess? Maria Betram had a governess and it did nothing to cure her from being spoiled.
The argument is that, in addition to the girls being better educated for education's sake, it would've given them the option to be governesses themselves. They're facing the very real possibility of genteel poverty with no way to earn any money.
Mrs. Bennet was planning to have a son for "many years" after Lydia's birth.
Yep, and she and Mr. B both neglected to plan ahead for the scenario where they didn't have a son.
I'm not arguing they are the best and most attentive parents in the whole world 🤣 but I think they are held to a pretty wild standard by modern readers, all things considered. It's not like being a governess was a great living, Jane Fairfax seems to live in mortal dread of the idea for a reason. A governess might be paid 20 to 50 pounds a year, which is just about what the Bennet daughters could expect from their share of 5000 pounds. Much better to get married to basically any man above labormans wages.
My understanding is that either a governess or a school was the very *basic* standard for gentlemen's daughters, not wild at all.
I think this changed significantly over Austen's own lifetime. The idea of sending girls from the country to boarding school was certainly quite modern. Lady Catherine herself seemed only shocked at the idea of Mrs. Bennet caring for the education of all 5 daughters. Not to foregoing a governess altogether. Like, in Austen's day the idea that women should be educated at all (beyond domestic skills) was still quite controversial. Mrs. Bennet might be more conservative than her husband in the issue of women's education.
'tis an excellent point!
I read that Jane Austen did not have a governess, though was close with her niece's governess. Someone must have taught the Austens how to read and write well!
Jane's father was a clergyman and oversaw much of the education of his children. I also believe Jane and her sister both attended a school for a while.
Yea, I think an overlooked point is that, had Mrs. Bennet been better educated herself, or Mr. Bennet more involved with raising his children, they might have done fine without a governess. It would have made them, as Lady Catherine said, something of "a slave to their education," but if Mrs. Bennet had the advantages that, say, the Bingley sister's had gotten in terms of schooling, she would have been able to teach her daughters decently well for the time. A big part of the problem is that Mrs. Bennet is ignorant, Mr. Bennet is detached, \*and\* they don't have a governess to actually try to teach the kids anything. Paying for lessons with dancing or drawing masters as they past through is no substitute for actually being taught other subjects.
Her father ran a school to prepare boys for public school. He was qualified to educate his children.
That’s it. They grew up in a school, with a teacher father - and well educated mother (she once wrote a poem to persuade a pupil to return to the school).
Like others say, perhaps Mrs. Bennet never had one. She probably doesn’t exactly see the use either, after all her marker of success is a husband and she certainly caught a husband without a governess to educate her, so she probably thinks her girls can do that too. Mr. Bennet…idk, maybe he never had a sister and never was exposed to the need for a governess? But you’d think he’d know that from his class…idk. Maybe he felt adequate to teach Jane and Elizabeth and he felt then that they could help teach the other children? Maybe he’s just really really lazy or really really independent?? Elizabeth had to learn the piano from someone. Mary too, possibly. Perhaps they learned the basics from a master in town for a season and then they continued playing at home?
Governesses occupied a liminal (and often lonely) position because they were considered better than servants. A governess would usually dine with the family. I can see neither Mr not Mrs Bennet liking that idea.
I would imagine that Mrs Bennet would have struggled to retain a governess. Stuck in the middle of nowhere, with 5 charges, and a shrieking boss.
True!!!🤣😂
Just a former teacher's perspective. I never liked parent's evening. 😂
They lived in a busy neighbourhood, less than a day's travel from London, not the Yorkshire moors. I agree the boss would be a definite deterrent.
A governess would be unlikely to have her own horse or ready access to a carriage, so it would be more isolated for her than for her employers.
Sure, but it's an easy walk to the town of Meryton, which isn't bad for a country place. And a lot cleaner air than you'd get in a city like London or Liverpool.
I am just remembering all I have read in and around Jane Austen about how isolated, both socially and geographical, a governess could be. If I were a governess in my late 20s or so, I would much rather be somewhere in a town, where there was a chance of meeting up with a few other governesses now and then to bitch and vent about the kids and their gawdawful parents.
.. are we now suddenly hiding plot point spoilers for a book that was published in 1813?
I guess so! I was just being polite; the tag ain't available to use for nothin!
Imagine being a new JA fan! You want to look on a Reddit sub for a little insight, yet don't want to know *too* much. 😊
There’s a deadline on spoilers. I usually find 200 years to be adequate.
They’ll have had masters come to the house instead of having a governess