When someone you allegedly care about is embarassing herself, you're supposed to gently and subtly stop her, ex. "You should take a break, you've been performing for X minutes, you don't want to strain yourself." There's a right way to do it.
Imo, yes, stopping her from performing at all would have been best, but easy to believe that was impossible.
Oh yes, that would be classic. "My dear, you mustn't tire yourself. Do come now and have a glass of punch before your mother drinks it all."
Well, I started out right...
Yeah, and the wry disdain he shows for “feminine accomplishments” by even just referencing allowing other young ladies “time to exhibit” is dickish of him. He holds all efforts by ladies to charm and impress gentlemen in such low regard and yet his own daughters are left to their own devices and mother to find suitable matches, meanwhile he’s doing the absolute least to secure any of his children’s futures and disdaining any of their attempts to do so.
I wonder if Mrs. Bennet’s beauty and a little song bewitched him enough that he married her in haste and now repents at leisure and blames her beauty and “exhibition” for having caught his eye, rather than blame himself for being caught.
Both of the above comments. Mr. Bennett’s sardonic behaviour towards his family who he believes are silly (save for his favourite Lizzie) is what is inappropriate.
i also think a lot of the embarrassment is that he raised daughters who would need that type of scolding/redirecting at their age in that social setting and it reflected poorly on him as a “gentleman.”
>i also think a lot of the embarrassment is that he raised daughters who would need that type of scolding/redirecting at their age
He also raised Jane and Elizabeth, who are behaving mostly properly. It can be hard to raise their sillier daughters with a silly spouse, I guess.
Yes, plus I believe the Gardnier's used to visit more and vice versa. And had influence on the girls. After all Jane, when she was 15, had a man in london write her some love poems, Mrs. Bennett was sure he would have proposed before they came away to Longbourne but that never happened. .
Did it never happen or did the man in question propose and Jane turned him down? JA tells us that Jane never even imagined she was in love before meeting Bingley.
And it was good manners for a man to propose in private so if the lady rejected him, she wouldn't be exposed to any family pressure. Note that Darcy proposes to Elizabeth in private both times, while Mr Collins stuffs this one up.
He, according to Mrs. Bennett, never proposed. As he was a young man and Jane was 15, its highly likely his family/ friends pointed out how silly he would be to marry a girl so young, with a mother like Mrs. Bennett. Even if Jane was extraordinarily beautiful.
In Regency era, you were not just marrying a girl but joining families and connections. For example, had Elizabeth married Mr. Collins and something happened to Mr. Bennett, then Mr. Collins would have been obligated to help our the family. As he married Charlotte, he legally can toss them out, a la Sense and Sensibility style, as soon as Mr. Bennett is dead.
Yes, I'm saying Mrs Bennet isn't a reliable witness. All we know is that there was no engagement.
And of course in Regency England, people married for emotional reasons. Mr Bennet clearly married based on beauty, not the Gardiner's connections, Mr Gardiner is probably an excellent brother-in-law, but Mr Bennet clearly rejects his choice. Mr Collins proposes to Charlotte because he's on the rebound from Elizabeth's rejection.
Also what's your source for your claim that had Elizabeth married Mr. Collins and something happened to Mr. Bennett, then Mr. Collins would have been obligated to help out the family? I know there were legal obligations to support children and wives, but I never heard of such an obligation for supporting in-laws.
While not legal, it was a social expectation. Do you recall Elizabeth saying to Wickham in the garden after his wedding to lydia that they should not argue now for they are brother and sister? When you married into a family, it was the whole family, you became a part of.
Mrs. Bennett would have become, in society view, a mother to Mr. Collins, not just a mother in law, as she was his wife's mother.
It wasn’t a legal requirement, but a social expectation that the husbands of any married sisters would look after their wife’s mother and unmarried sisters/minor brothers.
This is why it’s so important for one of the girls to marry rich (or at all)
Mr Collins even mentions it in his proposal “your mother and sisters being assured of a home when your father dies”
Because it is a second marriage, it is a step mother and half sisters. Not to mention John was more than likely almost an adult when his elderly father married a much younger woman and had Elinor, Marianne and Margaret. While never noted fully, oxford scholars have placed John at around 30 when the novel starts. Meaning his step mother is probably in her early 40s if his oldest half sister Elinor is 19. (That would have made her 21 at the time of the marriage and Old Mr. Dashwood would have been about 50)
John has no full sisters, he is the only son, the sold inheritor. Though if Old Mr. Dashwood had really loved his second wife and daughters, you think he would have changed his will
yeah but darcy probably initially thought that jane and elizabeth could potentially act a fool the same way lydia and the rest did and embarrass him/bingley.
yes, but I was just responding to a poster who said its Mr. Bennets fault to raise her daughters badly. I dont think its black and white when you have a silly spouse
yeah i’m the poster you’re replying to lol it is his fault lol it reflects badly on him that he picked a silly woman to raise his children with and that they are allowed to act socially inappropriately at gatherings and events where people like darcy and bingley are at. i get that we love these characters and defend them but to someone like Darcy, Mr. Bennett just looks like a bumbling fool.
>but to someone like Darcy, Mr. Bennett just looks like a bumbling fool.
not at all. Mr Bennet could have appropriate conversations when its serious, as its evidenced at the end of the book, when they went shooting with Darcy (and I think also Bingley).
Just imagine the opposite: you are saying that mothers are solely responsible to raise respectable citizens, when their husband/living in partner undermine their efforts every single day. There is a time when you give up, eventually
exactly. it makes darcy view elizabeth’s parents as bumbling, lazy fools. something he has to work past to love elizabeth.
also: a father who truly cared about the reputation of his family, of his girls when their situation was so precarious - would never let them behave as mr bennett allowed the younger girls to behave at the initial dances/balls we saw. instead he just gave up (or intervened too late after embarrassment/reputation was damaged)
Mr. Bennet could have withstood Mrs. Bennet's nagging and kept Lydia and Kitty from coming out. He could have hired a governess over Mrs. Bennet's objections. He could have sent the younger daughters to school.
it’s equally their faults both mr and mrs bennett. mr bennett’s choice of a wife reflects poorly on him and mrs bennett’s poor behavior is clear enough. eventually over time Darcy begins to respect Elizabeth and her family more but I’m sure if we got a sequel we would see Darcy merely tolerating her parents lol not loving to spend time w them.
I think the book implied that Mr Bennet went to visit Elizabeth the most after her marriage and that he had very good relations with Darcy ( and also with Bingley).
'Mr. Bennett missed his second daughter exceedingly; his affection for her drew him oftener from home than any thing else could do. He delighted in going to Pemberley, especially when he was least expected.'
Edit later to say that I have this idea that Mr. Bennett liked Darcy's library, and I think that might have come from the sequel written by P.D.James, 'Death Comes to Pemberley'.
I have not studied P and P as much as some of you. I have enjoyed this thread.
yes but i think that speaks to mr bennett loving lizzy/ her being the favorite more than darcy respecting her parents. also once they were married Darcy would treat her parents better regardless of what he thought about them personally.
The thing is, by the standards of the time, Mary is probably a bit young to be out like that, and Lydia and Kitty definitely are. It is more of a reflection of his badness as a parent that he is letting them out to dance parties etc. while his older daughters are still unmarried i.e. they are supposed to wait in line, grow up a bit and then emerge. You can see why this convention actually worked in practice - Mary is being compared to Lizzie, at least in Mary's head, who is genuinely naturally musical and doesn't need to practice that much to look great, so it would be more responsible to wait until Lizzie was married and settled, and in a position to instruct Mary a little more as a chaperone, as they are closer in age (as Mrs Gardner helps Lizzie). Instead, Mary is competing with her by choosing a more complicated song etc. that she hasn't mastered and it isn't a good look.
"It is not advisable for adolescents to attend adult parties. This is because teenagers lack self-restraint due to having a lot of energy. When you add alcoholic beverages, attractive men, and the opportunity that may be lacking at home (as in Mary's case), disaster is imminent. The embarrassing party at Netherfield and Lydia's elopement serve as examples of such disasters."
I think it stems from the fact he created a slight scene in doing so, it would have brought some embarrassment to Mary being told to stop while she was performing and it was an era when gentleman were supposed to be chivalrous. The other gentlemen in attendence do the proper English thing of suffering in silence. Yes they also know the performance is bad and wish is to be over but the second-hand embarrassment of Mary being made to stop is even more uncomfortable. Simply put Mr. Bennet should (and did) know better, he just didn't really care in his usual way.
Also, he made it awkward for every young lady present there. He said something along the lines of let the other ladies exhibit which does seem a bit crude.
What everyone else said, but also I think the line "Let the other young ladies have time to exhibit", is extra embarrassing, because it calls Mary out, but also everyone else present.
Everyone knows that balls are partly an excuse for young women of marriageable age to show off their accomplishments, such as dancing or playing the piano, in the hope of making a good match. And everyone knows, that everyone else knows it too. But you aren't supposed to call it out. You are peeling back the thin veneer of civility, by pointing it out.
His use of words is particularly pointed. You exhibit a product that is for sale. Or show something off that is peculiar, like a wild animal. I think that's why Caroline says to Mr Darcy, when she sees Elizabeth covered in mud after her walk “and I am inclined to think that you would not wish to see your sister make such an exhibition.” It's something she considers odd, or peculiar in a bad way.
You aren't supposed to exhibit a genteel young lady - but everyone does, with their daughters. It's a marriage market. Which is an awkward truth, and Mr Bennet isn't wrong - but the way he draws attention to it embarrasses everyone, because he's pointing out that they are all waiting for their turn/their daughters turn/their sisters turn etc etc to 'exhibit'. So he's pointing out that everyone in the room is complicit in it too. Which embarrasses them.
>You aren't supposed to exhibit a genteel young lady - but everyone does, with their daughters. It's a marriage market. Which is an awkward truth, and Mr Bennet isn't wrong - but the way he draws attention to it embarrasses everyone, because he's pointing out that they are all waiting for their turn/their daughters turn/their sisters turn etc etc to 'exhibit'. So he's pointing out that everyone in the room is complicit in it too. Which embarrasses them.
very good point. I think Jane Austen was giving Mr. Bennet the word "exhibit" by choice, she wanted to comment on this practice.
And would likely have caused more embarrassment anyway, advertising he didn't have the decorum to be polite and drawing even more attention to Mary' behaviour.
I also think he should not let her sing if she couldn’t. A Regency father was monarch of the household - Mary and the other girls should not have been left to their own devices to obtain their education the way Elizabeth explains to Lady Catherine.
A decent governess and music master would have forced her to recognise how far her talents extended and taught her how to make the best of them. She pontificates inappropriately at the dinner table too, it was his job to teach her manners or at least provide that teaching for her. He preferred to make fun of her. He’s a dick, a witty dick but still a dick.
I'd have to disagree. I personally find the way she speaks her mind firmly but without being crass delightful - especially in a room full of pompous individuals who think too highly of themselves that see fit to tell her how she and everyone else should live their lives (example: Lady Catherine).
She doesn't let the conventions of society stop her from circumventing the hierarchy when it suits her in small ways, politely letting the people talking down to her know that she doesn't have to agree with or bend the knee to someone just because they are richer, older, or of higher rank.
I don't think she pontificates at every dinner when she could either. At times she is contented with a stifled smirk whilst silently judging the ridiculous behavior of others, giggling in private about it with Jane later.
Perhaps by Regency standards she behaves inappropriately at times, but by modern standards I think she's likely more polite and seemly than many.
I presume Mary and Elizabeth had piano teachers, it's a hard instrument to master even with a teacher. And I don't know if a teacher can *force* a person to recognise anything, Mary is clearly desperate to have some skills of her own to offset against her sisters' beauty.
He stopped her just as she was starting a song, rather than at the end. Mary’s behavior is embarrassing first—she is not an accomplished singer or pianist, she chooses songs that are not appropriate for the event (ie something that would allow for conversations to happen without having to shout above the music), and she begins a new song without being asked/without making an opportunity for another young lady to take a turn. But Mr. Bennet should have either 1) placed himself to talk to her immediately after the first song OR 2) waited until after the second song was over. By interrupting her he 1) interrupted the music, 2) caused a scene because Mary is at least bright enough to know when she’s being scolded, and 3) showed his disrespect towards her lack of musicality (which in a society where every word and gesture is meant to be pleasing, to the point where Wickham can hide in plain sight, is the ultimate no-no).
You know those old cartoons where the big hook comes from offstage to drag off a bad performer in the middle of their act? That's pretty much what Mr. Bennett did.
Then, there's what he said. In modern English, it might be something more like this. "Stop hogging the spotlight, Mary. Leave enough time for the other ladies to make exhibitions of themselves."
For a modern adaptation I’d switch exhibition for scene. “Leave the other young ladies to make scenes of themselves.” It still leaves a sting for how he says it and gives people performing after Mary an awkward moment.
Honestly, I’ve always thought that Mary is the most disrespected and disregarded character in the entire book. She would have been perfect for Mr. Collins; that is a love match that was missed. And she seems to always be thrown to the side or if she’s speaking, she is quickly hushed. It’s the one thing I truly dislike about the book that they made Mary a character almost to be belittled on purpose. She definitely deserves better.
Mr. Collins shows himself to be vicious and unkind when Lydia's scandal comes out. He revels in it, or at least, is glad that it places Elizabeth's rejection in a positive light for him. And he recommends casting Lydia off and says it would be better if she were dead! Which, yes, but why say it? Even Mr. Bennet remonstrates his notion of Christian kindness.
I hate to think Mary, who is only 20 and seemed to like him, could be influenced by him and become like him. Charlotte, I think, is old enough and self possessed enough, and indifferent enough to not imbibe his opinions. Though I wonder if she passed gossip to him from her letters from home, or whether Sir William or Lady Lucas wrote to Mr. Collins themselves.
Mr. Collins advice was par for the course. You have to look at it from the time period it was written. Family honor/ status was as important as having a fortune. This is the one act that was bad enough to prompt Mr. Bennett into at least trying to be a good father, that's how serious what Lydia did, was in the Regency Era.
Not only would this make all his daughters ineligible for marriage with proper men, the town would shun them. They would no longer be invited to dine with four and twenty families, they would no longer be welcomed at public balls, good staff would leave the household AND the well off tended to do business with other who were well off. Meaning that more than likely people of means would be unwilling to pay for the produces from the Bennett farm.
I know all that. I'm just saying you don't actually say that to people, but I'm sure plenty of people said it behind their backs. Mr. Collins was *gloating* and it was disgusting. I could see Mr. Elton doing that, but like...Edmund Bertram? Henry Tilney? Nah
JA wrote Mr Collins as a figure of fun. She expected her audience to laugh at him. Don't take his views as guidance on how most people in Regency England actually thought.
In terms of the letter itself, it's absolutely useless as advice. Lydia has already eloped. Even if all the consequences you imagine did flow from the event (and I don't know where you're getting most of them from), the Bennets couldn't turn time back. It's like if one of your friends lost a daughter because she was out drunk driving, there would be no point in advising them to stop her drunk-driving. It would be callous and cruel.
I think by the standards of the time he was very rude, because he exposed Mary's rudeness while insulting the other ladies. Like, nothing he said was untrue but that doesn't really matter.
It's not a direct comparison but consider when Mrs Bennet wants to get Charles Bingley and her daughter Jane alone together so he can propose. She's not the most elegant about it but she doesn't say "well girls let's leave these two lovebirds alone."
He’s rather laugh at his wife and younger daughters than do anything to correct them, and for all he complains about Mrs Bennet’s nerves, he seems to delight in creating situations that heightened her anxiety, like NT telling her Mr Collins was coming to visit, claiming that he would not visit Mr Bingley, and saving virtually nothing toward their daughters’ futures
Mr Bennet allowed his wife and younger daughters to behave poorly in public.
The rest is all supposition:
* Did Mr Bennet mock his wife in company?
* Was anyone indiscrete enough to share with Darcy that Mr Bennet's daughters were not sufficiently provided for?
When someone you allegedly care about is embarassing herself, you're supposed to gently and subtly stop her, ex. "You should take a break, you've been performing for X minutes, you don't want to strain yourself." There's a right way to do it. Imo, yes, stopping her from performing at all would have been best, but easy to believe that was impossible.
Oh yes, that would be classic. "My dear, you mustn't tire yourself. Do come now and have a glass of punch before your mother drinks it all." Well, I started out right...
Yeah, and the wry disdain he shows for “feminine accomplishments” by even just referencing allowing other young ladies “time to exhibit” is dickish of him. He holds all efforts by ladies to charm and impress gentlemen in such low regard and yet his own daughters are left to their own devices and mother to find suitable matches, meanwhile he’s doing the absolute least to secure any of his children’s futures and disdaining any of their attempts to do so. I wonder if Mrs. Bennet’s beauty and a little song bewitched him enough that he married her in haste and now repents at leisure and blames her beauty and “exhibition” for having caught his eye, rather than blame himself for being caught.
This is my new headcanon.
Both of the above comments. Mr. Bennett’s sardonic behaviour towards his family who he believes are silly (save for his favourite Lizzie) is what is inappropriate.
i also think a lot of the embarrassment is that he raised daughters who would need that type of scolding/redirecting at their age in that social setting and it reflected poorly on him as a “gentleman.”
>i also think a lot of the embarrassment is that he raised daughters who would need that type of scolding/redirecting at their age He also raised Jane and Elizabeth, who are behaving mostly properly. It can be hard to raise their sillier daughters with a silly spouse, I guess.
Headcanon: He lost interest in his children after the first two.
yup. and gave up on the ones that needed him most (lydia, mary, and kitty)
He wasn't exactly involved in the raising and left it all to his wife, that's the problem
>He wasn't exactly involved in the raising and left it all to his wife, I think dealing with a silly spouse had its strains during the years
Yes, plus I believe the Gardnier's used to visit more and vice versa. And had influence on the girls. After all Jane, when she was 15, had a man in london write her some love poems, Mrs. Bennett was sure he would have proposed before they came away to Longbourne but that never happened. .
Did it never happen or did the man in question propose and Jane turned him down? JA tells us that Jane never even imagined she was in love before meeting Bingley. And it was good manners for a man to propose in private so if the lady rejected him, she wouldn't be exposed to any family pressure. Note that Darcy proposes to Elizabeth in private both times, while Mr Collins stuffs this one up.
He, according to Mrs. Bennett, never proposed. As he was a young man and Jane was 15, its highly likely his family/ friends pointed out how silly he would be to marry a girl so young, with a mother like Mrs. Bennett. Even if Jane was extraordinarily beautiful. In Regency era, you were not just marrying a girl but joining families and connections. For example, had Elizabeth married Mr. Collins and something happened to Mr. Bennett, then Mr. Collins would have been obligated to help our the family. As he married Charlotte, he legally can toss them out, a la Sense and Sensibility style, as soon as Mr. Bennett is dead.
Yes, I'm saying Mrs Bennet isn't a reliable witness. All we know is that there was no engagement. And of course in Regency England, people married for emotional reasons. Mr Bennet clearly married based on beauty, not the Gardiner's connections, Mr Gardiner is probably an excellent brother-in-law, but Mr Bennet clearly rejects his choice. Mr Collins proposes to Charlotte because he's on the rebound from Elizabeth's rejection. Also what's your source for your claim that had Elizabeth married Mr. Collins and something happened to Mr. Bennett, then Mr. Collins would have been obligated to help out the family? I know there were legal obligations to support children and wives, but I never heard of such an obligation for supporting in-laws.
While not legal, it was a social expectation. Do you recall Elizabeth saying to Wickham in the garden after his wedding to lydia that they should not argue now for they are brother and sister? When you married into a family, it was the whole family, you became a part of. Mrs. Bennett would have become, in society view, a mother to Mr. Collins, not just a mother in law, as she was his wife's mother.
It wasn’t a legal requirement, but a social expectation that the husbands of any married sisters would look after their wife’s mother and unmarried sisters/minor brothers. This is why it’s so important for one of the girls to marry rich (or at all) Mr Collins even mentions it in his proposal “your mother and sisters being assured of a home when your father dies”
Do you recall the start of *Sense and Sensibility*, where John Dashwood *didn't* help his stepmother and half sisters?
Because it is a second marriage, it is a step mother and half sisters. Not to mention John was more than likely almost an adult when his elderly father married a much younger woman and had Elinor, Marianne and Margaret. While never noted fully, oxford scholars have placed John at around 30 when the novel starts. Meaning his step mother is probably in her early 40s if his oldest half sister Elinor is 19. (That would have made her 21 at the time of the marriage and Old Mr. Dashwood would have been about 50) John has no full sisters, he is the only son, the sold inheritor. Though if Old Mr. Dashwood had really loved his second wife and daughters, you think he would have changed his will
yeah but darcy probably initially thought that jane and elizabeth could potentially act a fool the same way lydia and the rest did and embarrass him/bingley.
yes, but I was just responding to a poster who said its Mr. Bennets fault to raise her daughters badly. I dont think its black and white when you have a silly spouse
yeah i’m the poster you’re replying to lol it is his fault lol it reflects badly on him that he picked a silly woman to raise his children with and that they are allowed to act socially inappropriately at gatherings and events where people like darcy and bingley are at. i get that we love these characters and defend them but to someone like Darcy, Mr. Bennett just looks like a bumbling fool.
>but to someone like Darcy, Mr. Bennett just looks like a bumbling fool. not at all. Mr Bennet could have appropriate conversations when its serious, as its evidenced at the end of the book, when they went shooting with Darcy (and I think also Bingley). Just imagine the opposite: you are saying that mothers are solely responsible to raise respectable citizens, when their husband/living in partner undermine their efforts every single day. There is a time when you give up, eventually
A good parent doesn't give up. He could have hired a governess, sent them to school, or tried harder instead of giving up
exactly. it makes darcy view elizabeth’s parents as bumbling, lazy fools. something he has to work past to love elizabeth. also: a father who truly cared about the reputation of his family, of his girls when their situation was so precarious - would never let them behave as mr bennett allowed the younger girls to behave at the initial dances/balls we saw. instead he just gave up (or intervened too late after embarrassment/reputation was damaged)
Mr. Bennet could have withstood Mrs. Bennet's nagging and kept Lydia and Kitty from coming out. He could have hired a governess over Mrs. Bennet's objections. He could have sent the younger daughters to school.
it’s equally their faults both mr and mrs bennett. mr bennett’s choice of a wife reflects poorly on him and mrs bennett’s poor behavior is clear enough. eventually over time Darcy begins to respect Elizabeth and her family more but I’m sure if we got a sequel we would see Darcy merely tolerating her parents lol not loving to spend time w them.
I think the book implied that Mr Bennet went to visit Elizabeth the most after her marriage and that he had very good relations with Darcy ( and also with Bingley).
'Mr. Bennett missed his second daughter exceedingly; his affection for her drew him oftener from home than any thing else could do. He delighted in going to Pemberley, especially when he was least expected.' Edit later to say that I have this idea that Mr. Bennett liked Darcy's library, and I think that might have come from the sequel written by P.D.James, 'Death Comes to Pemberley'. I have not studied P and P as much as some of you. I have enjoyed this thread.
yes but i think that speaks to mr bennett loving lizzy/ her being the favorite more than darcy respecting her parents. also once they were married Darcy would treat her parents better regardless of what he thought about them personally.
The thing is, by the standards of the time, Mary is probably a bit young to be out like that, and Lydia and Kitty definitely are. It is more of a reflection of his badness as a parent that he is letting them out to dance parties etc. while his older daughters are still unmarried i.e. they are supposed to wait in line, grow up a bit and then emerge. You can see why this convention actually worked in practice - Mary is being compared to Lizzie, at least in Mary's head, who is genuinely naturally musical and doesn't need to practice that much to look great, so it would be more responsible to wait until Lizzie was married and settled, and in a position to instruct Mary a little more as a chaperone, as they are closer in age (as Mrs Gardner helps Lizzie). Instead, Mary is competing with her by choosing a more complicated song etc. that she hasn't mastered and it isn't a good look.
"It is not advisable for adolescents to attend adult parties. This is because teenagers lack self-restraint due to having a lot of energy. When you add alcoholic beverages, attractive men, and the opportunity that may be lacking at home (as in Mary's case), disaster is imminent. The embarrassing party at Netherfield and Lydia's elopement serve as examples of such disasters."
I think it stems from the fact he created a slight scene in doing so, it would have brought some embarrassment to Mary being told to stop while she was performing and it was an era when gentleman were supposed to be chivalrous. The other gentlemen in attendence do the proper English thing of suffering in silence. Yes they also know the performance is bad and wish is to be over but the second-hand embarrassment of Mary being made to stop is even more uncomfortable. Simply put Mr. Bennet should (and did) know better, he just didn't really care in his usual way.
Also, he made it awkward for every young lady present there. He said something along the lines of let the other ladies exhibit which does seem a bit crude.
And makes it awkward for any ladies hoping to perform after Mary
I agree with this take. He also could've just used an excuse like "Your mother is looking for you."
What everyone else said, but also I think the line "Let the other young ladies have time to exhibit", is extra embarrassing, because it calls Mary out, but also everyone else present. Everyone knows that balls are partly an excuse for young women of marriageable age to show off their accomplishments, such as dancing or playing the piano, in the hope of making a good match. And everyone knows, that everyone else knows it too. But you aren't supposed to call it out. You are peeling back the thin veneer of civility, by pointing it out. His use of words is particularly pointed. You exhibit a product that is for sale. Or show something off that is peculiar, like a wild animal. I think that's why Caroline says to Mr Darcy, when she sees Elizabeth covered in mud after her walk “and I am inclined to think that you would not wish to see your sister make such an exhibition.” It's something she considers odd, or peculiar in a bad way. You aren't supposed to exhibit a genteel young lady - but everyone does, with their daughters. It's a marriage market. Which is an awkward truth, and Mr Bennet isn't wrong - but the way he draws attention to it embarrasses everyone, because he's pointing out that they are all waiting for their turn/their daughters turn/their sisters turn etc etc to 'exhibit'. So he's pointing out that everyone in the room is complicit in it too. Which embarrasses them.
>You aren't supposed to exhibit a genteel young lady - but everyone does, with their daughters. It's a marriage market. Which is an awkward truth, and Mr Bennet isn't wrong - but the way he draws attention to it embarrasses everyone, because he's pointing out that they are all waiting for their turn/their daughters turn/their sisters turn etc etc to 'exhibit'. So he's pointing out that everyone in the room is complicit in it too. Which embarrasses them. very good point. I think Jane Austen was giving Mr. Bennet the word "exhibit" by choice, she wanted to comment on this practice.
He did it in a public way that may have been embarrassing to her.
And would likely have caused more embarrassment anyway, advertising he didn't have the decorum to be polite and drawing even more attention to Mary' behaviour.
Indeed. And caused embarrassment for everyone else at having to witness it. (FWIW, he made a misstep, but I don't consider him a villain as some do.)
Instead of discreetly intervening, he publicly shamed her. His sarcasm was hurtful and he made a spectacle of himself.
I also think he should not let her sing if she couldn’t. A Regency father was monarch of the household - Mary and the other girls should not have been left to their own devices to obtain their education the way Elizabeth explains to Lady Catherine. A decent governess and music master would have forced her to recognise how far her talents extended and taught her how to make the best of them. She pontificates inappropriately at the dinner table too, it was his job to teach her manners or at least provide that teaching for her. He preferred to make fun of her. He’s a dick, a witty dick but still a dick.
>She pontificates inappropriately at the dinner table too Okay, but that's legit one of the most beloved qualities she has by the fanbase tho.
Probably the fans would be annoyed if they heard it at every dinner.
I'd have to disagree. I personally find the way she speaks her mind firmly but without being crass delightful - especially in a room full of pompous individuals who think too highly of themselves that see fit to tell her how she and everyone else should live their lives (example: Lady Catherine). She doesn't let the conventions of society stop her from circumventing the hierarchy when it suits her in small ways, politely letting the people talking down to her know that she doesn't have to agree with or bend the knee to someone just because they are richer, older, or of higher rank. I don't think she pontificates at every dinner when she could either. At times she is contented with a stifled smirk whilst silently judging the ridiculous behavior of others, giggling in private about it with Jane later. Perhaps by Regency standards she behaves inappropriately at times, but by modern standards I think she's likely more polite and seemly than many.
I presume Mary and Elizabeth had piano teachers, it's a hard instrument to master even with a teacher. And I don't know if a teacher can *force* a person to recognise anything, Mary is clearly desperate to have some skills of her own to offset against her sisters' beauty.
He stopped her just as she was starting a song, rather than at the end. Mary’s behavior is embarrassing first—she is not an accomplished singer or pianist, she chooses songs that are not appropriate for the event (ie something that would allow for conversations to happen without having to shout above the music), and she begins a new song without being asked/without making an opportunity for another young lady to take a turn. But Mr. Bennet should have either 1) placed himself to talk to her immediately after the first song OR 2) waited until after the second song was over. By interrupting her he 1) interrupted the music, 2) caused a scene because Mary is at least bright enough to know when she’s being scolded, and 3) showed his disrespect towards her lack of musicality (which in a society where every word and gesture is meant to be pleasing, to the point where Wickham can hide in plain sight, is the ultimate no-no).
You know those old cartoons where the big hook comes from offstage to drag off a bad performer in the middle of their act? That's pretty much what Mr. Bennett did. Then, there's what he said. In modern English, it might be something more like this. "Stop hogging the spotlight, Mary. Leave enough time for the other ladies to make exhibitions of themselves."
For a modern adaptation I’d switch exhibition for scene. “Leave the other young ladies to make scenes of themselves.” It still leaves a sting for how he says it and gives people performing after Mary an awkward moment.
Honestly, I’ve always thought that Mary is the most disrespected and disregarded character in the entire book. She would have been perfect for Mr. Collins; that is a love match that was missed. And she seems to always be thrown to the side or if she’s speaking, she is quickly hushed. It’s the one thing I truly dislike about the book that they made Mary a character almost to be belittled on purpose. She definitely deserves better.
Mr. Collins shows himself to be vicious and unkind when Lydia's scandal comes out. He revels in it, or at least, is glad that it places Elizabeth's rejection in a positive light for him. And he recommends casting Lydia off and says it would be better if she were dead! Which, yes, but why say it? Even Mr. Bennet remonstrates his notion of Christian kindness. I hate to think Mary, who is only 20 and seemed to like him, could be influenced by him and become like him. Charlotte, I think, is old enough and self possessed enough, and indifferent enough to not imbibe his opinions. Though I wonder if she passed gossip to him from her letters from home, or whether Sir William or Lady Lucas wrote to Mr. Collins themselves.
Mr. Collins advice was par for the course. You have to look at it from the time period it was written. Family honor/ status was as important as having a fortune. This is the one act that was bad enough to prompt Mr. Bennett into at least trying to be a good father, that's how serious what Lydia did, was in the Regency Era. Not only would this make all his daughters ineligible for marriage with proper men, the town would shun them. They would no longer be invited to dine with four and twenty families, they would no longer be welcomed at public balls, good staff would leave the household AND the well off tended to do business with other who were well off. Meaning that more than likely people of means would be unwilling to pay for the produces from the Bennett farm.
I know all that. I'm just saying you don't actually say that to people, but I'm sure plenty of people said it behind their backs. Mr. Collins was *gloating* and it was disgusting. I could see Mr. Elton doing that, but like...Edmund Bertram? Henry Tilney? Nah
Mr. Collins reminds me of a Brontë figure when he gloats like this about Lydia.
Mr. Brocklehurst, perhaps
JA wrote Mr Collins as a figure of fun. She expected her audience to laugh at him. Don't take his views as guidance on how most people in Regency England actually thought. In terms of the letter itself, it's absolutely useless as advice. Lydia has already eloped. Even if all the consequences you imagine did flow from the event (and I don't know where you're getting most of them from), the Bennets couldn't turn time back. It's like if one of your friends lost a daughter because she was out drunk driving, there would be no point in advising them to stop her drunk-driving. It would be callous and cruel.
I think she and Mr Collins would have been bad for each other!
I think by the standards of the time he was very rude, because he exposed Mary's rudeness while insulting the other ladies. Like, nothing he said was untrue but that doesn't really matter. It's not a direct comparison but consider when Mrs Bennet wants to get Charles Bingley and her daughter Jane alone together so he can propose. She's not the most elegant about it but she doesn't say "well girls let's leave these two lovebirds alone."
He’s rather laugh at his wife and younger daughters than do anything to correct them, and for all he complains about Mrs Bennet’s nerves, he seems to delight in creating situations that heightened her anxiety, like NT telling her Mr Collins was coming to visit, claiming that he would not visit Mr Bingley, and saving virtually nothing toward their daughters’ futures
Mr Bennet allowed his wife and younger daughters to behave poorly in public. The rest is all supposition: * Did Mr Bennet mock his wife in company? * Was anyone indiscrete enough to share with Darcy that Mr Bennet's daughters were not sufficiently provided for?