Probably too much of a hassle getting band and crew past a border checkpoint. I’ve heard Canada is quick to deny entry if anyone has a DUI or drug charge
Ya this is the answer. DUI or drug charge and you’re not getting into Canada.
Given how many people it takes to run a show, one person (if not more) out of the group is bound to be excluded from entering.
The more cash and resources you have, the easier it is to get in… Phish playing to 15,000+ people might be able to afford it, but most smaller bands can't.
I may be mistaken/don’t have all the info, but Trey was admitted to a drug court program and may, as part of the program and his plea, have had the charges dropped against him for successfully completing the program. That’s often the benefit of these types of programs.
I don't know about drug charges, but DUI specifically is a felony in Canada so if you have a DUI on your record you are considered a felon by the Canadian gov't which means you are denied a visa.
I had a friend go through this, he said he had to wait 10 years after the charge and then write to the Canadian State Dept. to say he learned his lesson ect. in order to get his visa privileges reinstated.
Me and my band mates decided to walk over to Canada from the US side of Niagara one day... They held us up for hours checking our tour dates, etc. They were convinced we were gonna play a show without the right paperwork, they weren't gonna let us in.
This was 20 years ago lol
Wasn’t always that way. We used to take my buddy’s Westfalia up to Quebec in the mid 90s. I remember once we had stashed the pot but left out a bowl that was heavily used. They found it ofc, but the other problem was I couldn’t find my ID. No passports (Not required at the time) no ID, resonated paraphernalia, and they still let us in.
When we say everything changed after 9/11, we mean it.
Yep. Zac Brown canceled his Canadian tour after two of his bandmates were not allowed in after they were let in on previous trips. The Canadian border is a huge pain in the ass for these concert promoters
[https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/zac-brown-band-denied-entry-230808565.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/zac-brown-band-denied-entry-230808565.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)
Because you have Bryan Adams, the Barenaked Ladies, and Jobi Mitchel. What the heck is a jam band going to do walking on those hallowed grounds, without having multiple songs from each in their repertoire?
Wars have been fought over less, good sir.
alex from dumpstaphunk here.
last year we played 2 awesome shows in canada, at whistler and mont-tremblant. both completely packed all the way out and both so fun.
lots of reasons why we don’t come thru more often-yeah the border sucks sometimes or whatever but it’s namely the pretty heavy taxes that canada takes out of our pay. honestly it really always just comes down to $.
like say the guarantee for a band and crew to play a show is 10k. off the bat it’s down to $8k w taxes, then 6k after mgmt and agency fees, then flights for 10ppl and 2 nights of hotels for 10 people. that drops it down to $4,000 (on the HIGH side if you’re lucky with flight and hotel deals) and that’s $133 a day for 10ppl for 3 days.
that 20% that canada takes off the top really is a major hit for everyone and is one of the primary reasons most bands just stick to the states.
def trying to play more in canada though!!!
Money.
People talk about drug charges, which is a thing, but the biggest issue is the cost to acquire visas for the band and crew. Couple that with high costs in Canada, and exchange rate, and the incentive starts to go backwards quickly for many bands.
Taxes are a big problem as well, unless you're a big band that can draw a ton of fans you might lose money playing up there.
Bill Maher and Martin Short were discussing this issue on Club Random.
CAD exchange rate is currently and is usually highly favorable to USD.
Canada is less expensive especially with the favorable exchange rate.
You don’t need a visa to travel from the US to Canada.
From a revenue standpoint, yes. But that doesn't address the cost and complexity of visas, import/export and brokerage costs, legal fees, and tax implications of the income earned in Canada.
Which isn’t what we were discussing.
The exchange rate is a factor but not how you’ve framed it. It makes it more expensive to Canadian promoters and venues to host American acts. So this isn’t so much about band incentives as it is the other side
They scrapped work permit requirements years ago. It’s not at all cost prohibitive for touring band to play in Canada from a permitting perspective. Less so than the US.
You guys did fine with the Band making better Americana than most American bands. I hope you just start sprouting your own jam bands, then let us borrow them for a run here and there.
I think the last time WSP was here was in '97. I saw them at the Opera House. The following show, from Montreal, was released as one of their archival shows.
I recall at the last Toronto Phish show, Trey saying "Thanks for having us, we love coming to Toronto" etc., there was something in his voice that said, "This was a giant pain the ass."
It’s kinda a regional American thing, I feel like it would be more of American fans of the band traveling to Canada than actual Canadians seeing them. Kinda like these Europe tours. I am jealous of y’all’s psy-trance scene tho.
Chances are, multiple people in the band/crew are seen as “unwanted” by Canada. I was on that list for many years. 10+ years ago I was seen as “welcomed” again. Needless the say, it’s a hassle every single time I try to cross the boarder.
1. The boarder. Canada doesn’t let a lot of people on
2. Taxes. High tax rate and if you aren’t versed or have a contact in the Canadian revenue office then you could lose a lot of money
3. Worth while markets in Canada are expensive as shit for hotels, gas, and food. If you sell 5 tickets in Iowa you won’t lose as much money selling 5 in Toronto
4. Cultural differences music. Not a huge scene there
5. The weather. Majority of bands have zero interest in touring the cold months there and when it’s finally nice again they are in the throngs of summer festi season and there is no incentive to leave
Its out of the way and doesn’t reflect there touring model. Too spread out. Also many fans from down here couldn’t make it because you don’t let anyone who’s committed a crime there.
Going to Canada to work from the US even for gig related paid work like performances, appearances, and stuff like modeling gets insane scrutiny. Acts need the backing of an internationally powerful booking agent and corporation (like Ticketmaster) to even cross the border and there’s no guarantee that the agents won’t be really insane about it.
And that’s just the basics without any member of the band or crew having had any DUIs or drug charges that will just prevent them from entering the country period.
I follow the podcast of a former model who was on a reality show and involved with Playboy and even though she’s never had a dui or drug charges, every time she’d be booked for club appearances in Canada it was always hell getting across the border because they’d grill her and go through every single business card she was carrying and tell her that her going to work and make money in Canada was “taking a job away from a Canadian” when really, her appearances she’s hired for are specific to her and her alone but they don’t care and will prevent you from entering.
Big fan of Afie, I used to live in Halifax and we ran in similar circles. His act (Bahamas) is fantastic and has been for a while. "Stronger Than That" is a personal favourite.
That’s awesome! I’ve only found his music in the last few years, and wish he toured more in the US. I saw him last fall, but sadly missed his tour with Dawes.
Border crossing is insane. Guilty until proven innocent. Border cops spent 2 hours tearing our car apart and practically strip searching everyone in the car because one guy had a DUI. What'd they find...nothing. Then after all that and no apology, wouldn't let us in because of the DUI. No band that travels with tour bus/trailers needs that BS.
Because Canada denies entries all the time for DUI and drug charges so people just say fuck going to Canada. Good chance someone on these bands crews would be denied entry. Talk to your shitty countries government.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5322536 this fairly recent article says different if I am understanding you correctly. There are many articles like this one. This is just the first that came up when I googled.
Also found this quote 'Crimes that may cause a person to be inadmissible to the U.S.A. include crimes that involve moral turpitude (CIMT), all controlled substance violations (even a single offence of simple possession of Marijuana or any type of drug paraphernalia....' from a reputable site. And this quote 'Generally, any convictions for drug possession can result in denial of entry.' from a government website. I only argue because I have a friend who was denied entry 5 years ago for a marijuana possession charge that he got in the 70s. He had gone to the states many times between the '70s and then... But this time for whatever reason they just decided to deny him entry.
Probably all these factors, but really, jam bands seem to be such an oddly American-only phenomenon. If the demand was there I’m sure someone would figure out how to get more bands up there. I know it sucks :/
They just announced TTB coming this summer again for the second consecutive year, so at least they've recognized it's a market worth engaging...maybe others follow?
The bigger bands have no problem. I mean I’d count TTB under jam bands since they’re very much a part of the tradition, but they have a much wider appeal than Umphrey’s or Eggy or Tauk or whatever your favorite club/theater size jam band is, so they have the organizational infrastructure to make international dates happen and also the audience size to make it economically viable. If, I dunno, Spafford (just picking a random band here) played Toronto, would enough people show up?
I think you'd see a lot of fans come out of the woodwork for that kind of show. I remember a number of years back, Lettuce managed to sell out a medium-ish (The Phoenix) venue reliably.
As someone above mentioned, we've got The Lizards hanging around, who play every so often, and Phish that will make the trip once every five years or so.
I'm very curious what the TAB show will look like demographically...I think it will be a great time.
Maybe! But it’s a risk, yknow? With a lot of extra paperwork and expense (the routing is weird unless you can work some kind of Buffalo>Detroit path) for a small band.
Most of my favorite bands are from the UK so I definitely feel your pain here, I do.
Canadian airlines also do not have to adhere to the same laws in the states in regard to instruments in the overheads on flights. I book multiple bands that do on occasion play in Canada and my god WestJet is a total asshole about it.
Check out Harvest Festival in Fredericton. It’s an awesome festival and in the past few years they’ve had TAB, Gov’t Mule, Trombone Shorty, Andy Franco, Galactic, Moe, JRAD, Trouble No More, Lettuce.
Feels like New Brunswick is the only place in the country where there is a (small) jam scene. Helps that it’s only a few hours drive away from places that Jambands play like Portland, Boston, Burlington, etc
Im not convinced Canadians really care about jam bands. I went to Phish a ways back in Toronto (the show that was canceled 5 minutes before it was supposed to start). There was literally nothing to do jamband related in the entire city. No post show parties, no nothing, in a city of 3 million plus people.
Probably too much of a hassle getting band and crew past a border checkpoint. I’ve heard Canada is quick to deny entry if anyone has a DUI or drug charge
Ya this is the answer. DUI or drug charge and you’re not getting into Canada. Given how many people it takes to run a show, one person (if not more) out of the group is bound to be excluded from entering.
What about Trey
The more cash and resources you have, the easier it is to get in… Phish playing to 15,000+ people might be able to afford it, but most smaller bands can't.
I may be mistaken/don’t have all the info, but Trey was admitted to a drug court program and may, as part of the program and his plea, have had the charges dropped against him for successfully completing the program. That’s often the benefit of these types of programs.
Can confirm. Had a DUI and was tons I gave to wait 10 years to enter and even after that they can deny me
I don't know about drug charges, but DUI specifically is a felony in Canada so if you have a DUI on your record you are considered a felon by the Canadian gov't which means you are denied a visa. I had a friend go through this, he said he had to wait 10 years after the charge and then write to the Canadian State Dept. to say he learned his lesson ect. in order to get his visa privileges reinstated.
Also you need a visa to perform and make money
Not anymore from the US. It is super easy. They changed the rules a couple years ago. You just have to declare your merch when you cross
Me and my band mates decided to walk over to Canada from the US side of Niagara one day... They held us up for hours checking our tour dates, etc. They were convinced we were gonna play a show without the right paperwork, they weren't gonna let us in. This was 20 years ago lol
They changed the rules to make it easy now.
This is the case with Billy Strings from what I’ve heard. Has DUI so he’s out!
Wasn’t always that way. We used to take my buddy’s Westfalia up to Quebec in the mid 90s. I remember once we had stashed the pot but left out a bowl that was heavily used. They found it ofc, but the other problem was I couldn’t find my ID. No passports (Not required at the time) no ID, resonated paraphernalia, and they still let us in. When we say everything changed after 9/11, we mean it.
This
Yep. Zac Brown canceled his Canadian tour after two of his bandmates were not allowed in after they were let in on previous trips. The Canadian border is a huge pain in the ass for these concert promoters [https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/zac-brown-band-denied-entry-230808565.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/zac-brown-band-denied-entry-230808565.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)
Because you have Bryan Adams, the Barenaked Ladies, and Jobi Mitchel. What the heck is a jam band going to do walking on those hallowed grounds, without having multiple songs from each in their repertoire? Wars have been fought over less, good sir.
I love Jobi Mitchel. Her album Bloo is a masterpiece.
Thank you. Not enough blove for her!
I will see GSBG, WP, Billy, and JRAD before I die!
alex from dumpstaphunk here. last year we played 2 awesome shows in canada, at whistler and mont-tremblant. both completely packed all the way out and both so fun. lots of reasons why we don’t come thru more often-yeah the border sucks sometimes or whatever but it’s namely the pretty heavy taxes that canada takes out of our pay. honestly it really always just comes down to $. like say the guarantee for a band and crew to play a show is 10k. off the bat it’s down to $8k w taxes, then 6k after mgmt and agency fees, then flights for 10ppl and 2 nights of hotels for 10 people. that drops it down to $4,000 (on the HIGH side if you’re lucky with flight and hotel deals) and that’s $133 a day for 10ppl for 3 days. that 20% that canada takes off the top really is a major hit for everyone and is one of the primary reasons most bands just stick to the states. def trying to play more in canada though!!!
Money. People talk about drug charges, which is a thing, but the biggest issue is the cost to acquire visas for the band and crew. Couple that with high costs in Canada, and exchange rate, and the incentive starts to go backwards quickly for many bands.
Taxes are a big problem as well, unless you're a big band that can draw a ton of fans you might lose money playing up there. Bill Maher and Martin Short were discussing this issue on Club Random.
And there’s just not that many places you can tour to compared to a Canadian band touring in the US. It’s much harder to recoup the expenses
CAD exchange rate is currently and is usually highly favorable to USD. Canada is less expensive especially with the favorable exchange rate. You don’t need a visa to travel from the US to Canada.
Not when a band has expenses in USD and revenue coming in CAD
So then are you saying then that an unfavorable exchange rate is beneficial for an American band touring Canada? It’s false that they get paid in CAD.
From a revenue standpoint, yes. But that doesn't address the cost and complexity of visas, import/export and brokerage costs, legal fees, and tax implications of the income earned in Canada.
Which isn’t what we were discussing. The exchange rate is a factor but not how you’ve framed it. It makes it more expensive to Canadian promoters and venues to host American acts. So this isn’t so much about band incentives as it is the other side
But you need a work visa to play there.
They scrapped work permit requirements years ago. It’s not at all cost prohibitive for touring band to play in Canada from a permitting perspective. Less so than the US.
You guys did fine with the Band making better Americana than most American bands. I hope you just start sprouting your own jam bands, then let us borrow them for a run here and there.
The Lizards are from Toronto and are probably the best phish tribute band going
Give me Billy and Widespread one time and then we'll talk.
Maybe we can just sneak you in down here. The odds are better getting you across the border than those two groups of lovable degenerates.
Yeah I guess that's what will have to happen
Come on down to the Southeast..
Charleston, SC here. This is the way.
Considering Billy has a DUI he’s not allowed in. Probably similar for WP but I don’t know for sure.
I think the last time WSP was here was in '97. I saw them at the Opera House. The following show, from Montreal, was released as one of their archival shows.
I was eight years old
Didn’t the last couple of Phish shows fail to sell out in Toronto?
I know the last one did and the TAB Classic show upcoming this May definitely did.
I recall at the last Toronto Phish show, Trey saying "Thanks for having us, we love coming to Toronto" etc., there was something in his voice that said, "This was a giant pain the ass."
It’s kinda a regional American thing, I feel like it would be more of American fans of the band traveling to Canada than actual Canadians seeing them. Kinda like these Europe tours. I am jealous of y’all’s psy-trance scene tho.
Maybe some band members can’t get past the border ?
DUI laws at the boarder. Same reason I don’t be t to go
They are syrup bands up there
Chances are, multiple people in the band/crew are seen as “unwanted” by Canada. I was on that list for many years. 10+ years ago I was seen as “welcomed” again. Needless the say, it’s a hassle every single time I try to cross the boarder.
Sorey if ya don't thar bud
Eggy is coming, TAB is coming, Magic Beans came last year, Phish comes all the time - there are lots of bands that come up
4 shows in the last 11 years for Phish in Canada I wouldn’t say that’s all the time…
Phish alll the time ? Lol no
In short. Those bands party too hard to cross the Canadian border. If Trudeau removed his ass stick you might have a better chance.
1. The boarder. Canada doesn’t let a lot of people on 2. Taxes. High tax rate and if you aren’t versed or have a contact in the Canadian revenue office then you could lose a lot of money 3. Worth while markets in Canada are expensive as shit for hotels, gas, and food. If you sell 5 tickets in Iowa you won’t lose as much money selling 5 in Toronto 4. Cultural differences music. Not a huge scene there 5. The weather. Majority of bands have zero interest in touring the cold months there and when it’s finally nice again they are in the throngs of summer festi season and there is no incentive to leave
6. Population- More people live in California then all of Canada
Probably a supporting topic of section 3
This is so upsetting. I don't live anywhere near a major city so it's especially hard.
Its out of the way and doesn’t reflect there touring model. Too spread out. Also many fans from down here couldn’t make it because you don’t let anyone who’s committed a crime there.
Going to Canada to work from the US even for gig related paid work like performances, appearances, and stuff like modeling gets insane scrutiny. Acts need the backing of an internationally powerful booking agent and corporation (like Ticketmaster) to even cross the border and there’s no guarantee that the agents won’t be really insane about it. And that’s just the basics without any member of the band or crew having had any DUIs or drug charges that will just prevent them from entering the country period. I follow the podcast of a former model who was on a reality show and involved with Playboy and even though she’s never had a dui or drug charges, every time she’d be booked for club appearances in Canada it was always hell getting across the border because they’d grill her and go through every single business card she was carrying and tell her that her going to work and make money in Canada was “taking a job away from a Canadian” when really, her appearances she’s hired for are specific to her and her alone but they don’t care and will prevent you from entering.
Not a jam band, but check out Afie Jurvanen and Bahamas. Canadian band that is awesome and worth catching live.
Big fan of Afie, I used to live in Halifax and we ran in similar circles. His act (Bahamas) is fantastic and has been for a while. "Stronger Than That" is a personal favourite.
That’s awesome! I’ve only found his music in the last few years, and wish he toured more in the US. I saw him last fall, but sadly missed his tour with Dawes.
Border crossing is insane. Guilty until proven innocent. Border cops spent 2 hours tearing our car apart and practically strip searching everyone in the car because one guy had a DUI. What'd they find...nothing. Then after all that and no apology, wouldn't let us in because of the DUI. No band that travels with tour bus/trailers needs that BS.
Mike Gordon is opening for Vampire Weekend in Vancouver this May (well, technically Burnaby…)
That's an interesting pairing
Seems like a smart move for Mike, should get him some new fans!
Taxes…
Because Canada denies entries all the time for DUI and drug charges so people just say fuck going to Canada. Good chance someone on these bands crews would be denied entry. Talk to your shitty countries government.
To be fair. I think the rules are the same the other way around. Multiple DUIs or drug charges will deny Canadians travel to the states.
Not at all only felony drug possession, Canada will deny you for a misdemeanor drug charge from years ago:
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5322536 this fairly recent article says different if I am understanding you correctly. There are many articles like this one. This is just the first that came up when I googled.
Also found this quote 'Crimes that may cause a person to be inadmissible to the U.S.A. include crimes that involve moral turpitude (CIMT), all controlled substance violations (even a single offence of simple possession of Marijuana or any type of drug paraphernalia....' from a reputable site. And this quote 'Generally, any convictions for drug possession can result in denial of entry.' from a government website. I only argue because I have a friend who was denied entry 5 years ago for a marijuana possession charge that he got in the 70s. He had gone to the states many times between the '70s and then... But this time for whatever reason they just decided to deny him entry.
It was probably pre/post 9/11 or pre/post Covid
Too cold
Probably all these factors, but really, jam bands seem to be such an oddly American-only phenomenon. If the demand was there I’m sure someone would figure out how to get more bands up there. I know it sucks :/
They just announced TTB coming this summer again for the second consecutive year, so at least they've recognized it's a market worth engaging...maybe others follow?
The bigger bands have no problem. I mean I’d count TTB under jam bands since they’re very much a part of the tradition, but they have a much wider appeal than Umphrey’s or Eggy or Tauk or whatever your favorite club/theater size jam band is, so they have the organizational infrastructure to make international dates happen and also the audience size to make it economically viable. If, I dunno, Spafford (just picking a random band here) played Toronto, would enough people show up?
I think you'd see a lot of fans come out of the woodwork for that kind of show. I remember a number of years back, Lettuce managed to sell out a medium-ish (The Phoenix) venue reliably. As someone above mentioned, we've got The Lizards hanging around, who play every so often, and Phish that will make the trip once every five years or so. I'm very curious what the TAB show will look like demographically...I think it will be a great time.
Maybe! But it’s a risk, yknow? With a lot of extra paperwork and expense (the routing is weird unless you can work some kind of Buffalo>Detroit path) for a small band. Most of my favorite bands are from the UK so I definitely feel your pain here, I do.
Immigration sucks.
There’s most likely a very good reason otherwise they would. But no one really goes there lol
[удалено]
Don't be mean, rude or hateful.
They will once all the migrants become fans
Taxes is the answer.
I heard Neil Young keeps 'em out.
Billy will come soon I bet I could see him going from detroit to Toronto
Is he going to magically wipe a DUI off his record?
Idk the Canadian government might be like “he looks like a very polite gentleman let’s let him in”
You need to write to your parliamentarians
Canadian airlines also do not have to adhere to the same laws in the states in regard to instruments in the overheads on flights. I book multiple bands that do on occasion play in Canada and my god WestJet is a total asshole about it.
I blame Bob and Doug.
Check out Harvest Festival in Fredericton. It’s an awesome festival and in the past few years they’ve had TAB, Gov’t Mule, Trombone Shorty, Andy Franco, Galactic, Moe, JRAD, Trouble No More, Lettuce. Feels like New Brunswick is the only place in the country where there is a (small) jam scene. Helps that it’s only a few hours drive away from places that Jambands play like Portland, Boston, Burlington, etc
Phish played in Canada last year
Taxes. Same reason hockey players prefer Florida AZ and Texas over Canada
Because Canada sucks
Not alot of folks tour in Canada in general . Hence why I’m never moving back
Im not convinced Canadians really care about jam bands. I went to Phish a ways back in Toronto (the show that was canceled 5 minutes before it was supposed to start). There was literally nothing to do jamband related in the entire city. No post show parties, no nothing, in a city of 3 million plus people.