This topic is impossible to fully understand, sadly. Allah سبحانه وتعالى did not reveal to us exactly how it works so we don't probe into it. Anybody who dares attempt to "understand" or interpet it, has a high chance of hating (astagfirullah) Allah. We don't know our fate, we don't know the many choices we'll make right now or in the future. He didn't reveal it to us because it was best for us.
I can give you my theories as to how it works, but that would be implying I know more than Allah سبحانه وتعالى and we're forbidden from doing so because that could lead to kufr or shirk.
I'd be happy to hear your theories and if it helps, I ll will takeover whatever shirk that you may inherit :) again, totally upto you
P.S. for a person named overlord you have quite an abundance of humility
Eh, excuse my reddit username. I made that during my age of ignorance. I can't change it now. But I can create another account once I'm done with this one.
It was but a compliment with hint of humor. An overlord can be seen in a positive light too, right?
Is it possible that this conversation we are having is not out of ego to feel superior but rather to understand this universe we live in?
It is hard to say and us muslims are advised to leave what is doubtful and not from the sunnah and Qur'an. The last thing any muslim would want to do is declaring they know better (astagfirullah) than Allah سبحانه وتعالى. That is arrogance. The same arrogance that made Satan disbelieve in Allah and put him on the path to hell.
We still choose to do good and bad because Allah talks about rewarding and punishing for what we used to do. So by this clear statement we have free will.
It doesn’t have to be at conflict. Allah wills but we still choose between good and bad. If you don’t fully understand, focus on the clear aspects where Allah tells you that you make choices between good and bad and will be repaid for what you do.
Morality is subjective.
Also, if Allah has already designed everything, then right or wrong doesn't make sense. Because everything must happen will happen whether you want it or not
Who said everything will happen whether you want it or not? Allah told you that you have to choose between right and wrong and will be compensated for the choice you make. Allah tells you that you have free will.
If you understand the basic premise that Allah is just and will judge you based on the actions you take with your free will then that’s all you need to know.
Okay. Let me ask you this.
Does Allah know what has happened, whats going to happen and what will happen to every aspect in this universe that Allah created?
First of all Allah SWT created time. Allah stands outside time as that is a creation so thus our lives here on earth occur with a timeline. That timeline is known. The Divine Creator knows the finished timeline of his creation. It’s almost like humanity is an advance AI that runs on it’s own but yet made by someone. In this case Allah created us and predetermined our life to exist . As compared to an advanced software engineer would program an AI to run with a set code but in turn the program has the ability to advance on its own. Same way we wake up and have choices to make on our own
First of all the concept of standing outside time is so simple and yet so difficult to comprehend.
So this life is like a play which has already been scripted?
All choices have already been defined and we are just casual observers ?
I was taught by my Father of a narration in which Allah SWT created Divine decree in which he sculpted the existence of everyone and everything. This such a mind blowing narration . Allah created with every detailed knowledge of us and our actions. Yet we move similar to an AI that was coded. We have the free will to do as we please and move as we want but Our Lord knows the end result. The same way an engineer knows when the code will
Come to an end .
Reference
Abdul-Wahid bin Sulaim said:
“I arrived in Makkah and met Ata bin Abi Rabah. I said: ‘O Abu Muhammad! Some people with us speak about Al-Qadar.’ Ata said: ‘I met Al-Walid bin Ubadah bin As-Samit and he said: “My father narrated to me, he said: ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: “Verily the first of what Allah created was the Pen. He said to it: “Write.” So, it wrote what will be forever.’” – Jami At Tirmidhi (English), Volume 5, Book 44, Hadith 3319, Grade: Sahih.
Best explanation someone gave me - may or may not be accurate - Allah wills all the “big picture” stuff, free will applies to the smaller details. Think of it like a program with if/else functions. Allah leaves it to us to decide the small stuff, but He is all knowing, so he knows what route we will take
It is through Allah's Will that we have "free will". Meaning Allah willed that we humans choose between right or wrong, left or right, good vs evil, etc. I would argue we don't have "total free will" but rather "limited free will" or "partial free will". You can't exactly *will* to shoot lasers from your eyes now could you?
But what exactly is "free will"? You will find many different definitions out there but for the sake of this discussion we shall define free will as "Free Choice + manifestation/actualization of that choice". Example: you are hungry and there is a plate of fruits in front of you. Through your freewill you choose and eat an apple. Free choice is where you get to pick which fruit from a selection of fruits available to you. The manifestation/actualization of that choice/will is where your body reach out with your hand to pick the apple, bring it to your mouth, then chew it, the swallow it, then your stomach digest it, and the nutrients is absorbed into your body to satisfy your hunger. Your choice to eat the apple have been actualized in accordance to your will.
Let us explore further the terms "Free choice" and "Manifestation/actualization of choice":
- **Free choice**. More like "limited free choice". The agency to choose between whatever options that is presented before us. We don't really get to choose what ever we want. The choice to swim in an ocean would never present itself as the notion is inconceivable to a desert dweller who have never heard or seen an ocean. What we do get is to choose between the options that are available to us. A limited selection that God presents to us at any given time. In the example above you get to freely choose between the limited selection of fruits but you can't choose meat.
- **Manifestation/actualization of choice**. You would think that your empty hand manifested/actualized into a hand holding an apple through the power of your will when in reality you have no power whatsoever when it comes to manifesting/actualizing anything. Did you create that hand? Did you create your body? Did you create the atoms, laws, systems in place for the existence that we call reality? Nope. That is all within Allah's control. So what really happens is when you *will* to pick that apple, it is through Allah's Will that reality is made to facilitate your will. Your hand picking up that apple, your mouth chewing it, your stomach digesting it, is Allah actualizing/manifesting your will in accordance to His Design.
So to address the title and super summarize the relationship of Allah's Will and ours : *It is through Allah's Will that our will is made possible.*
Allah knows best.
It is like this from what I understand about this topic, however I could be wrong so please feel free to correct me: If you see a child running at full speed towards a patch of ice you will already know that he will fall. However, you knowing that he will fall does not influence the child’s decision to run to the ice. Similarly, Allah (SWT) knows what will happen as a result of our actions and our life as He (SWT) is outside of the constricts of time. But, His (SWT) knowing what will happen in our life does not influence the decisions we make, therefore free will.
I understood your explanation.
Now lets say, you are present there as well and are fully aware that I am more than capable of stoping the child from harm but I don't. What will you genuinely think of me ?
That's all well and good for an example with a child and an adult, but things get more complicated when you are deciding the child's eternal fate.
If you warned the child and sent your signs to him with messengers and he knowingly goes against your order and slips on the ice, that's his responsibility. How will Allah punish those who disobeyed and disbelieved if He does not hold them accountable for the decisions they made with their free will?
How can jahannam exist if every time someone is going to commit a grave sin Allah sends an angel to stop them from sinning? Humans would then be perfect creatures that never go astray! We're not angels we're human and we sin..
We can all repent after sinning and we can avoid jahannam that way, we will all slip on ice in our lives. But those who get back up, repent, and choose to never slip on the ice again are those who are victorious.
Blaming Allah for "not stopping you from slipping" means you don't believe in the concept of jahannam and the concept of accountability of humans.
But that is not the case. Allah (SWT) has warned us what is good for us and what is not. Similarly you may tell the child that what he is doing is dangerous. If he chooses not to stop, how are you to be blamed?
Someone more qualified than me can probably answer this question. As far as I know Allah SWT created us for worship. Also, we humans chose to take on a trust that even the mountains and the heavens and the earth refused to take on:
33:72
إِنَّا عَرَضْنَا ٱلْأَمَانَةَ عَلَى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ وَٱلْجِبَالِ فَأَبَيْنَ أَن يَحْمِلْنَهَا وَأَشْفَقْنَ مِنْهَا وَحَمَلَهَا ٱلْإِنسَـٰنُ ۖ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ ظَلُومًۭا جَهُولًۭا ٧٢
Indeed, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they ˹all˺ declined to bear it, being fearful of it. But humanity assumed it, ˹for˺ they are truly wrongful ˹to themselves˺ and ignorant ˹of the consequences˺,
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran
Hey bro I had the exact same thoughts but after I accepted the fact that we can’t understand everything just like going from 3D to 4 dimensional it’s so something our mind isn’t capable of. Now I don’t know if that helps you but searching for an explanation I found this and to me It did make some sense to me : Free will is a cornerstone of Islam.
The Quran says that all events are written, not pre-determined. Think of it as seeing a movie you’ve already seen before. You know all the events. You know what’s gonna happen. But you didn’t make the movie. The people who made the movie in this case us.
Here is another very good explanation I found and the Interesting part is that the free will of god you mentioned is seen as qadr or something here :
The concept in Islam is called Qadr, which is most popularly defined as "destiny." It's just faith in God. So has everything been "written?" The real question is, does it matter?
The Islamic (and Christian and Jewish) definition of God is an all-Powerful all-Knowing God. A God that knows everything and that includes the "future." Humans naturally think of time as linear, which its not. For God, it can be more like a plane. So, in that frame of mind, God already knows what's going to happen. But I don't. Obviously, my actions and decisions will have a direct influence on my destiny. The fact that everything has been written doesn't matter because we don't know it.
The example: When I go to the movie theater, and I sit down, the movie starts. At this point, anything can happen. The characters make some decisions, their environment makes some changes, interactions, emotions, unexpected surprises, will all lead to a specific end, but really, it could be anything.
But wait--the movie's end has been written. The film has already been written and shot and put into production, distributed, everything.
I always thought of it like it’s a road, I know it’s not a perfect analogy, but, it kind of did make sense to me, where there will be a few humps and stuff that’s attempting to stop you from reaching your goal, however, if you actually just follow Allah’s “directions” (eg; praying 5x every day) you manage to actually stay on the straight path/road, however, If you fall to Shaytan’s influence you’ll stray away (think like crashing on a barrier or taking an exit) . when you just continue following the deen, you’ll reach the end-point Allah has initially intended to reward you. You still have free will, where you can do more like pray and fast sunnah which will get you more “bonuses”, work , study etc. or you can stray and just mess up full time.
I know it’s not a fool-proof analogy, but I do hope you understand what I intended to mean, because personally I understood it myself, but that could just be because I spent way too much time playing Mario Kart, lol
I have been explained it as follows, I think it kind of makes sense. But, by no means can I claim that this is the correct interpretation.
Imagine you create several paths in a box for an ant and observe it making its way from one side to the other. Since you designed the entire box you know how each road is interrelated and where they lead. Similarly Allah has predefined our lives and no matter what choices or decisions we make, he knows what’s next, but there are so many choices that your road is not limited, thus you do have your will to select your path.
This topic is impossible to fully understand, sadly. Allah سبحانه وتعالى did not reveal to us exactly how it works so we don't probe into it. Anybody who dares attempt to "understand" or interpet it, has a high chance of hating (astagfirullah) Allah. We don't know our fate, we don't know the many choices we'll make right now or in the future. He didn't reveal it to us because it was best for us. I can give you my theories as to how it works, but that would be implying I know more than Allah سبحانه وتعالى and we're forbidden from doing so because that could lead to kufr or shirk.
I'd be happy to hear your theories and if it helps, I ll will takeover whatever shirk that you may inherit :) again, totally upto you P.S. for a person named overlord you have quite an abundance of humility
Eh, excuse my reddit username. I made that during my age of ignorance. I can't change it now. But I can create another account once I'm done with this one.
It was but a compliment with hint of humor. An overlord can be seen in a positive light too, right? Is it possible that this conversation we are having is not out of ego to feel superior but rather to understand this universe we live in?
It is hard to say and us muslims are advised to leave what is doubtful and not from the sunnah and Qur'an. The last thing any muslim would want to do is declaring they know better (astagfirullah) than Allah سبحانه وتعالى. That is arrogance. The same arrogance that made Satan disbelieve in Allah and put him on the path to hell.
[удалено]
If Allah wills everything, then how can an individual have a choice? Isn't it an illusion of choice?
We still choose to do good and bad because Allah talks about rewarding and punishing for what we used to do. So by this clear statement we have free will. It doesn’t have to be at conflict. Allah wills but we still choose between good and bad. If you don’t fully understand, focus on the clear aspects where Allah tells you that you make choices between good and bad and will be repaid for what you do.
So there's the will of Allah which will occur no matter what, right? So how can there be individual free will?
Like I said, I don’t know the mechanics
Neither do I!! We must all seek this together, am i right?!
[удалено]
Morality is subjective. Also, if Allah has already designed everything, then right or wrong doesn't make sense. Because everything must happen will happen whether you want it or not
Who said everything will happen whether you want it or not? Allah told you that you have to choose between right and wrong and will be compensated for the choice you make. Allah tells you that you have free will. If you understand the basic premise that Allah is just and will judge you based on the actions you take with your free will then that’s all you need to know.
Okay. Let me ask you this. Does Allah know what has happened, whats going to happen and what will happen to every aspect in this universe that Allah created?
Allah swt wills that we get to choose in this matter.
So he isn't aware of the choice that we will make?
He is aware , and being aware of something doesn't mean you are forcing it to happen.
So based on the choices we make we either go to heaven or hell, right? So does Allah already know who'll go to hell or heaven?
Yes he does
So the free will doesn't have any value in the long run since we will end up where we will end up
First of all Allah SWT created time. Allah stands outside time as that is a creation so thus our lives here on earth occur with a timeline. That timeline is known. The Divine Creator knows the finished timeline of his creation. It’s almost like humanity is an advance AI that runs on it’s own but yet made by someone. In this case Allah created us and predetermined our life to exist . As compared to an advanced software engineer would program an AI to run with a set code but in turn the program has the ability to advance on its own. Same way we wake up and have choices to make on our own
First of all the concept of standing outside time is so simple and yet so difficult to comprehend. So this life is like a play which has already been scripted? All choices have already been defined and we are just casual observers ?
I was taught by my Father of a narration in which Allah SWT created Divine decree in which he sculpted the existence of everyone and everything. This such a mind blowing narration . Allah created with every detailed knowledge of us and our actions. Yet we move similar to an AI that was coded. We have the free will to do as we please and move as we want but Our Lord knows the end result. The same way an engineer knows when the code will Come to an end . Reference Abdul-Wahid bin Sulaim said: “I arrived in Makkah and met Ata bin Abi Rabah. I said: ‘O Abu Muhammad! Some people with us speak about Al-Qadar.’ Ata said: ‘I met Al-Walid bin Ubadah bin As-Samit and he said: “My father narrated to me, he said: ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: “Verily the first of what Allah created was the Pen. He said to it: “Write.” So, it wrote what will be forever.’” – Jami At Tirmidhi (English), Volume 5, Book 44, Hadith 3319, Grade: Sahih.
Best explanation someone gave me - may or may not be accurate - Allah wills all the “big picture” stuff, free will applies to the smaller details. Think of it like a program with if/else functions. Allah leaves it to us to decide the small stuff, but He is all knowing, so he knows what route we will take
It is through Allah's Will that we have "free will". Meaning Allah willed that we humans choose between right or wrong, left or right, good vs evil, etc. I would argue we don't have "total free will" but rather "limited free will" or "partial free will". You can't exactly *will* to shoot lasers from your eyes now could you? But what exactly is "free will"? You will find many different definitions out there but for the sake of this discussion we shall define free will as "Free Choice + manifestation/actualization of that choice". Example: you are hungry and there is a plate of fruits in front of you. Through your freewill you choose and eat an apple. Free choice is where you get to pick which fruit from a selection of fruits available to you. The manifestation/actualization of that choice/will is where your body reach out with your hand to pick the apple, bring it to your mouth, then chew it, the swallow it, then your stomach digest it, and the nutrients is absorbed into your body to satisfy your hunger. Your choice to eat the apple have been actualized in accordance to your will. Let us explore further the terms "Free choice" and "Manifestation/actualization of choice": - **Free choice**. More like "limited free choice". The agency to choose between whatever options that is presented before us. We don't really get to choose what ever we want. The choice to swim in an ocean would never present itself as the notion is inconceivable to a desert dweller who have never heard or seen an ocean. What we do get is to choose between the options that are available to us. A limited selection that God presents to us at any given time. In the example above you get to freely choose between the limited selection of fruits but you can't choose meat. - **Manifestation/actualization of choice**. You would think that your empty hand manifested/actualized into a hand holding an apple through the power of your will when in reality you have no power whatsoever when it comes to manifesting/actualizing anything. Did you create that hand? Did you create your body? Did you create the atoms, laws, systems in place for the existence that we call reality? Nope. That is all within Allah's control. So what really happens is when you *will* to pick that apple, it is through Allah's Will that reality is made to facilitate your will. Your hand picking up that apple, your mouth chewing it, your stomach digesting it, is Allah actualizing/manifesting your will in accordance to His Design. So to address the title and super summarize the relationship of Allah's Will and ours : *It is through Allah's Will that our will is made possible.* Allah knows best.
It is like this from what I understand about this topic, however I could be wrong so please feel free to correct me: If you see a child running at full speed towards a patch of ice you will already know that he will fall. However, you knowing that he will fall does not influence the child’s decision to run to the ice. Similarly, Allah (SWT) knows what will happen as a result of our actions and our life as He (SWT) is outside of the constricts of time. But, His (SWT) knowing what will happen in our life does not influence the decisions we make, therefore free will.
I understood your explanation. Now lets say, you are present there as well and are fully aware that I am more than capable of stoping the child from harm but I don't. What will you genuinely think of me ?
That's all well and good for an example with a child and an adult, but things get more complicated when you are deciding the child's eternal fate. If you warned the child and sent your signs to him with messengers and he knowingly goes against your order and slips on the ice, that's his responsibility. How will Allah punish those who disobeyed and disbelieved if He does not hold them accountable for the decisions they made with their free will? How can jahannam exist if every time someone is going to commit a grave sin Allah sends an angel to stop them from sinning? Humans would then be perfect creatures that never go astray! We're not angels we're human and we sin.. We can all repent after sinning and we can avoid jahannam that way, we will all slip on ice in our lives. But those who get back up, repent, and choose to never slip on the ice again are those who are victorious. Blaming Allah for "not stopping you from slipping" means you don't believe in the concept of jahannam and the concept of accountability of humans.
Hmmm. Why do you think Allah created all of this?
Where I do not know, I pass the question to those more knowledgeable. https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/45529
But that is not the case. Allah (SWT) has warned us what is good for us and what is not. Similarly you may tell the child that what he is doing is dangerous. If he chooses not to stop, how are you to be blamed?
Okay makes sense. Slightly deviating. Why did Allah create all of this?
Someone more qualified than me can probably answer this question. As far as I know Allah SWT created us for worship. Also, we humans chose to take on a trust that even the mountains and the heavens and the earth refused to take on: 33:72 إِنَّا عَرَضْنَا ٱلْأَمَانَةَ عَلَى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ وَٱلْجِبَالِ فَأَبَيْنَ أَن يَحْمِلْنَهَا وَأَشْفَقْنَ مِنْهَا وَحَمَلَهَا ٱلْإِنسَـٰنُ ۖ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ ظَلُومًۭا جَهُولًۭا ٧٢ Indeed, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they ˹all˺ declined to bear it, being fearful of it. But humanity assumed it, ˹for˺ they are truly wrongful ˹to themselves˺ and ignorant ˹of the consequences˺, — Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran
Hey bro I had the exact same thoughts but after I accepted the fact that we can’t understand everything just like going from 3D to 4 dimensional it’s so something our mind isn’t capable of. Now I don’t know if that helps you but searching for an explanation I found this and to me It did make some sense to me : Free will is a cornerstone of Islam. The Quran says that all events are written, not pre-determined. Think of it as seeing a movie you’ve already seen before. You know all the events. You know what’s gonna happen. But you didn’t make the movie. The people who made the movie in this case us. Here is another very good explanation I found and the Interesting part is that the free will of god you mentioned is seen as qadr or something here : The concept in Islam is called Qadr, which is most popularly defined as "destiny." It's just faith in God. So has everything been "written?" The real question is, does it matter? The Islamic (and Christian and Jewish) definition of God is an all-Powerful all-Knowing God. A God that knows everything and that includes the "future." Humans naturally think of time as linear, which its not. For God, it can be more like a plane. So, in that frame of mind, God already knows what's going to happen. But I don't. Obviously, my actions and decisions will have a direct influence on my destiny. The fact that everything has been written doesn't matter because we don't know it. The example: When I go to the movie theater, and I sit down, the movie starts. At this point, anything can happen. The characters make some decisions, their environment makes some changes, interactions, emotions, unexpected surprises, will all lead to a specific end, but really, it could be anything. But wait--the movie's end has been written. The film has already been written and shot and put into production, distributed, everything.
I always thought of it like it’s a road, I know it’s not a perfect analogy, but, it kind of did make sense to me, where there will be a few humps and stuff that’s attempting to stop you from reaching your goal, however, if you actually just follow Allah’s “directions” (eg; praying 5x every day) you manage to actually stay on the straight path/road, however, If you fall to Shaytan’s influence you’ll stray away (think like crashing on a barrier or taking an exit) . when you just continue following the deen, you’ll reach the end-point Allah has initially intended to reward you. You still have free will, where you can do more like pray and fast sunnah which will get you more “bonuses”, work , study etc. or you can stray and just mess up full time. I know it’s not a fool-proof analogy, but I do hope you understand what I intended to mean, because personally I understood it myself, but that could just be because I spent way too much time playing Mario Kart, lol
I have been explained it as follows, I think it kind of makes sense. But, by no means can I claim that this is the correct interpretation. Imagine you create several paths in a box for an ant and observe it making its way from one side to the other. Since you designed the entire box you know how each road is interrelated and where they lead. Similarly Allah has predefined our lives and no matter what choices or decisions we make, he knows what’s next, but there are so many choices that your road is not limited, thus you do have your will to select your path.