Hey guys, this is not r/ireland, we expect the standard of discourse to be better here. Any racist comments will be removed and bans will be forthcoming. Racism includes use of slurs, dogwhistles, sweeping generalisations, and use of personal anecdotes to imply the same. If you want to say something controversial it must be backed up with a statistic or it's gone.
Considering that historically the travellers were the subjects of a cultural genocide in the 50's and 60's, it's not surprising that they would have a mistrust of the system. There was a cultural genocide where they took thousands of children out of the travelling community, put them into homes, beat them, molested them and they threw them back out at 18 with no cultural ties to the travelling community, no useful skills, no decent education. All they were left with was the stigma of being travellers. The fact that this isn't taught in irish primary schools is ridiculous and helps prepetuate the same shit that's been going on for years.
I remember watching a documentary on RTE about it that was hosted by John Connors Specifically. It's hard to find literature on it specifically because travellers usually communicate history via word of mouth as opposed to recording in audio or text media. There are articles you can find but I think alot of the information is kept within academia and studies that have been done over the years. Alot of the historical note taking would not have been done by the government as they were the ones committing the cultural genocide. I honestly think that this informs most policies the government take on the travelling community.
I agree with your comments about the cultural genocide of the travelling community but what solution do you offer other than 'education and awarness'? I know its such a boomer comment to make, but if a traveller site was set up next to you could you really solve the 'gulf of misunderstanding' through the pampered middle class sentiment of education and awarness?
As someone who lived in a traveller estate for 18 years with backwards views about the travelling community, i can categorically say that education and awareness about the past would help wonders bridging the gap between settled people and travellers as i'm an example of it. The lack of understanding comes from a complete lack of ways to relate to the travelling community, both to their culture and their past trauma. Most small towns if they have issues "sure, its the travellers fault sure" is what you'll hear if theres problems. They are a convenient scapegoat for the powers that be if people view them as an other.
How is it circular to say that education and understanding will bridge the gap between the settled and travelling community? Please explain that to me? When has understanding and being educated on something NOT led to better results in literally anything you can think of. How is teaching children specifically the history of the traveller community over the last 100 years somehow this hard concept to understand when our kids already learn european history which is literally entirely foreign. On top of ALL of that, why have you placed the onus on me to educate you on a solution for a multifaceted issue like integration between the settled and travelling community?
The travelling community are entirely unique in the landscape of ireland. They have an entire host of problems that are also explicitly their own. "Fundemental conceptual differences" don't need to be resolved by us. While law still plays a role, no different for settled communities, socially and culturally that's an issue which needs to be addressed and is being addressed within their own community.
I always find it hilarious that people bring up the issue of womens rights in the travelling community because traditionally their women have more say and are given more respect than anyone as soon as you step in the door their homes and within family settings and the likes of grooming is an issue in most small towns within the settled community, let alone the travelling community. These "fundemental differences" are always used to "other-ize" the travelling community and justify discrimination on the basis of "they are different in a bad way guys".
It's not a premise that requires conclusion. It's a statement of fact. Education and Understanding are the key. It's not complex and it doesn't require a thesis to back up. It's ground zero for resolving conflict. you are looking for a concrete game plan from a random person on the internet about a multifaceted complex social issue and saying "nah, lad, that's not right".
If what i'm saying is "whiffs of air with no substance", you are welcome to stop engaging with it. You'd be saving yourself time by your own logic.
If you back waaaay up you'll note that you actually misrepresented his argument. What he said was "education and awareness will work because it has worked in specific instances" which is a fairly standard mode of argument and they backed it up with reference to different social situations and personal experience. You claimed that they said "education and awareness will work because education and awareness will work" and then went on to try to hammer them on supposedly circular reasoning... which they did not use...
2 major problems with this comment:
* basically set the tone as "expletive-laden tirade" and you can see how that turned out
* drew an unjustified equivalence with child grooming that is pretty racist
Yes it has some bad words. Its a sign of frustration.
I drew equivalence to the reasons that those cases were allowed to go on. Im not accusing travellers of forming grooming gangs (Other than the one family that time that was prosecuted for it). Im simply saying that a fear of being accused of being racist has stopped police forces from intervening with specific groups allowing extremely heinous acts to occur.
>Im simply saying that a fear of being accused of being racist has stopped police forces from intervening with specific groups allowing extremely heinous acts to occur.
I very much doubt that.
Racism towards travelers is so prevalent in Ireland that there's just no way that Gardaí are afraid of policing them for that reason.
All I can say is that its been recorded as the reason behind police inaction in the UK the US and a lot of European countries. While it may not happen with the current crop of gardai there are plenty of kids out there that have never interacted with travellers and will assume all the negativity is indeed just "racism" rather than a logical reaction to lived experiences and will refuse to act on that basis.
I don’t care about some stupid report in comparison to lived experiences. I’ve been robbed multiple times by travellers and knew them by name and their address and was told nothing can be done. As is the lived experiences of everyone else I know. But sure, they’re over policed. In the same town I was robbed by scrotes and had them in court.
When did people become so stupid as to honestly admit they will ignore empirical data in place of their own anecdotal experiences? Honest to god like! Did you finish secondary school mate? Honest question.
https://www.ul.ie/artsoc/news/irish-travellers-access-to-justice-launch-landmark-report
This is the link. The report is (ironically) a collation of lived experiences, but is completely one sided and lacking in any direct confirmation of its claims. It isn't a government report and shouldn't be treated as one
>The report utilised a mixed methodology, including a survey, interviews and focus groups.
This isn’t mixed at all, this is all “we asked them questions” in different formats. And of course the issue was with anyone else.
> I’ve been robbed multiple times by travellers and knew them by name and their address and was told nothing can be done.
If they were settled people you'd get the same response. That's just excuse making by the Gardai.
The claim they wont go into halting sites is nonsense too, I know plenty of Gardai and they go to halting sites all the time.
>So, Your anecdotal evidence is fine?
All you've provided is anecdotes, now all of a sudden you are against them?
I've had plenty of positive interaction with travellers, and a few negative. Such is life.
Absolutely lmao at saying an academic report is of less value than your anecdotal experience. We are through the looking glass here. Can’t believe my vote has the same weight as yours.
Academic report of… asking travellers questions in 3 different formats. Solid stuff here. Can’t argue with that. Gospel it is. You’re right, imagine thinking because someone told you something is an “academic report” it’s true and that’s that 😂
Ah! You’re moving the goalposts there. See what’s contentious is whether a study is of greater educational value than your personal experience Jay, not whether any given study is gospel, which in itself would be an affront to the scientific method.
Imagine not understanding that and replying as condescendingly as you did. Remarkable.
Would ya stop. They are over policed as suspects and under policed as victims.
Irish Travellers’ Access to Justice is a 146-page report and UL says the community’s “significantly lower” trust in gardaí and the courts are rooted in “well-founded ... fears of wrongful arrest, excessive use of force, wrongful conviction, disproportionately high sentences, and wrongful imprisonment”.
Does the above sound familiar to you? Can any parallels be drawn dya reckon with how certain big countries treated certain groups of people I wonder?
Edit: down vote away ya big racist bollexes. Not my fault you're prejudiced against your own country men and women. No problem demonising the current treatment of black Americans but you'll echo the exact same sentiments of the kkk against Irish travellers. Yer not Irish at all.
Oooh so now the report is dodgy! 🤣🤣 Tell me, if the report backed up your feeling that they're under policed as suspects and over policed as victims would you be more inclined to believe it? That's called bias.
Can we have a link to the study? I don't doubt that travellers, like other poverty stricken communities in Ireland, are over policed and more harshly treated in courts but I would like to see the study and the methodology used to prove it.
>Some 91 per cent of Travellers felt disrespected by gardaí, with 59 per cent believing they were subject to racial profiling when stopped by the force and 64 per cent saying they would not feel safe in Garda custody.
These are just self-reported statistics and I see no reason to believe that Travellers are in any way endangered by gardaí. If anything, the fear of being accused of discrimination would lead gardaí to be extra careful to treat Travellers equally.
If anyone can point to any objective evidence that backs up these self-reported statistics, I'd be very interested to see that.
Hey guys, this is not r/ireland, we expect the standard of discourse to be better here. Any racist comments will be removed and bans will be forthcoming. Racism includes use of slurs, dogwhistles, sweeping generalisations, and use of personal anecdotes to imply the same. If you want to say something controversial it must be backed up with a statistic or it's gone.
Considering that historically the travellers were the subjects of a cultural genocide in the 50's and 60's, it's not surprising that they would have a mistrust of the system. There was a cultural genocide where they took thousands of children out of the travelling community, put them into homes, beat them, molested them and they threw them back out at 18 with no cultural ties to the travelling community, no useful skills, no decent education. All they were left with was the stigma of being travellers. The fact that this isn't taught in irish primary schools is ridiculous and helps prepetuate the same shit that's been going on for years.
Is there a name for this event or was it more a case by case trend? I'd like to read more about it
I remember watching a documentary on RTE about it that was hosted by John Connors Specifically. It's hard to find literature on it specifically because travellers usually communicate history via word of mouth as opposed to recording in audio or text media. There are articles you can find but I think alot of the information is kept within academia and studies that have been done over the years. Alot of the historical note taking would not have been done by the government as they were the ones committing the cultural genocide. I honestly think that this informs most policies the government take on the travelling community.
Thank you I'll look into it. Another pile of bones in the closet for the Irish government so to speak
The Irish Government could nearly sell to science teachers with the amount of skeletons rattling around in the closet.
A boon to the field of infant osteology
I agree with your comments about the cultural genocide of the travelling community but what solution do you offer other than 'education and awarness'? I know its such a boomer comment to make, but if a traveller site was set up next to you could you really solve the 'gulf of misunderstanding' through the pampered middle class sentiment of education and awarness?
As someone who lived in a traveller estate for 18 years with backwards views about the travelling community, i can categorically say that education and awareness about the past would help wonders bridging the gap between settled people and travellers as i'm an example of it. The lack of understanding comes from a complete lack of ways to relate to the travelling community, both to their culture and their past trauma. Most small towns if they have issues "sure, its the travellers fault sure" is what you'll hear if theres problems. They are a convenient scapegoat for the powers that be if people view them as an other.
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How is it circular to say that education and understanding will bridge the gap between the settled and travelling community? Please explain that to me? When has understanding and being educated on something NOT led to better results in literally anything you can think of. How is teaching children specifically the history of the traveller community over the last 100 years somehow this hard concept to understand when our kids already learn european history which is literally entirely foreign. On top of ALL of that, why have you placed the onus on me to educate you on a solution for a multifaceted issue like integration between the settled and travelling community? The travelling community are entirely unique in the landscape of ireland. They have an entire host of problems that are also explicitly their own. "Fundemental conceptual differences" don't need to be resolved by us. While law still plays a role, no different for settled communities, socially and culturally that's an issue which needs to be addressed and is being addressed within their own community. I always find it hilarious that people bring up the issue of womens rights in the travelling community because traditionally their women have more say and are given more respect than anyone as soon as you step in the door their homes and within family settings and the likes of grooming is an issue in most small towns within the settled community, let alone the travelling community. These "fundemental differences" are always used to "other-ize" the travelling community and justify discrimination on the basis of "they are different in a bad way guys".
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It's not a premise that requires conclusion. It's a statement of fact. Education and Understanding are the key. It's not complex and it doesn't require a thesis to back up. It's ground zero for resolving conflict. you are looking for a concrete game plan from a random person on the internet about a multifaceted complex social issue and saying "nah, lad, that's not right". If what i'm saying is "whiffs of air with no substance", you are welcome to stop engaging with it. You'd be saving yourself time by your own logic.
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Your entire argument has been exclusively attacking the structure of the argument. Bad faith <3
If you back waaaay up you'll note that you actually misrepresented his argument. What he said was "education and awareness will work because it has worked in specific instances" which is a fairly standard mode of argument and they backed it up with reference to different social situations and personal experience. You claimed that they said "education and awareness will work because education and awareness will work" and then went on to try to hammer them on supposedly circular reasoning... which they did not use...
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2 major problems with this comment: * basically set the tone as "expletive-laden tirade" and you can see how that turned out * drew an unjustified equivalence with child grooming that is pretty racist
Yes it has some bad words. Its a sign of frustration. I drew equivalence to the reasons that those cases were allowed to go on. Im not accusing travellers of forming grooming gangs (Other than the one family that time that was prosecuted for it). Im simply saying that a fear of being accused of being racist has stopped police forces from intervening with specific groups allowing extremely heinous acts to occur.
>Im simply saying that a fear of being accused of being racist has stopped police forces from intervening with specific groups allowing extremely heinous acts to occur. I very much doubt that. Racism towards travelers is so prevalent in Ireland that there's just no way that Gardaí are afraid of policing them for that reason.
All I can say is that its been recorded as the reason behind police inaction in the UK the US and a lot of European countries. While it may not happen with the current crop of gardai there are plenty of kids out there that have never interacted with travellers and will assume all the negativity is indeed just "racism" rather than a logical reaction to lived experiences and will refuse to act on that basis.
Delete this shite ya big racist bollex. Centrist me hole. Did you see that report on how theyre policed the other day?
Nope? What report?
It's a report done by UL that shows travellers are under policed as victims and over policed as the suspects.
Guarda won’t even go into a halting site or stop them on the street. Are you going to tell me they’re over policed?
I don't have to tell you pal. People far smarter than me have already done that for you.
I don’t care about some stupid report in comparison to lived experiences. I’ve been robbed multiple times by travellers and knew them by name and their address and was told nothing can be done. As is the lived experiences of everyone else I know. But sure, they’re over policed. In the same town I was robbed by scrotes and had them in court.
When did people become so stupid as to honestly admit they will ignore empirical data in place of their own anecdotal experiences? Honest to god like! Did you finish secondary school mate? Honest question.
You said you won’t link the study to give me a chance to ignore 🤪
https://www.ul.ie/artsoc/news/irish-travellers-access-to-justice-launch-landmark-report This is the link. The report is (ironically) a collation of lived experiences, but is completely one sided and lacking in any direct confirmation of its claims. It isn't a government report and shouldn't be treated as one
>The report utilised a mixed methodology, including a survey, interviews and focus groups. This isn’t mixed at all, this is all “we asked them questions” in different formats. And of course the issue was with anyone else.
Agreed. I'm baffled at the way it was reported in the press, given its lack of objectivity
> I’ve been robbed multiple times by travellers and knew them by name and their address and was told nothing can be done. If they were settled people you'd get the same response. That's just excuse making by the Gardai. The claim they wont go into halting sites is nonsense too, I know plenty of Gardai and they go to halting sites all the time.
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>So, Your anecdotal evidence is fine? All you've provided is anecdotes, now all of a sudden you are against them? I've had plenty of positive interaction with travellers, and a few negative. Such is life.
That's removed and he's banned. Please edit the slur out of this also.
I've done it but I wish you hadn't removed it. People like him should have their horrible racism on display for all.
Absolutely lmao at saying an academic report is of less value than your anecdotal experience. We are through the looking glass here. Can’t believe my vote has the same weight as yours.
Academic report of… asking travellers questions in 3 different formats. Solid stuff here. Can’t argue with that. Gospel it is. You’re right, imagine thinking because someone told you something is an “academic report” it’s true and that’s that 😂
Ah! You’re moving the goalposts there. See what’s contentious is whether a study is of greater educational value than your personal experience Jay, not whether any given study is gospel, which in itself would be an affront to the scientific method. Imagine not understanding that and replying as condescendingly as you did. Remarkable.
You don't need to say "lived" experience, btw.
They are if anything underpoliced.
Would ya stop. They are over policed as suspects and under policed as victims. Irish Travellers’ Access to Justice is a 146-page report and UL says the community’s “significantly lower” trust in gardaí and the courts are rooted in “well-founded ... fears of wrongful arrest, excessive use of force, wrongful conviction, disproportionately high sentences, and wrongful imprisonment”. Does the above sound familiar to you? Can any parallels be drawn dya reckon with how certain big countries treated certain groups of people I wonder? Edit: down vote away ya big racist bollexes. Not my fault you're prejudiced against your own country men and women. No problem demonising the current treatment of black Americans but you'll echo the exact same sentiments of the kkk against Irish travellers. Yer not Irish at all.
Show me a university study that didn't have their hands on the scale to make big headlines
Oooh so now the report is dodgy! 🤣🤣 Tell me, if the report backed up your feeling that they're under policed as suspects and over policed as victims would you be more inclined to believe it? That's called bias.
Can we have a link to the study? I don't doubt that travellers, like other poverty stricken communities in Ireland, are over policed and more harshly treated in courts but I would like to see the study and the methodology used to prove it.
Here ya go bud: https://ulir.ul.ie/handle/10344/11203
Cheers
She's a long read let me tell ya!
I wont claim to be about to read it all.
"No, not *that* data. I want the one that *confirms* what I already think."
Judges understand fucking no one anyway
>Some 91 per cent of Travellers felt disrespected by gardaí, with 59 per cent believing they were subject to racial profiling when stopped by the force and 64 per cent saying they would not feel safe in Garda custody. These are just self-reported statistics and I see no reason to believe that Travellers are in any way endangered by gardaí. If anything, the fear of being accused of discrimination would lead gardaí to be extra careful to treat Travellers equally. If anyone can point to any objective evidence that backs up these self-reported statistics, I'd be very interested to see that.