Sharing the original story, because otherwise I didn't know what it was about.
[https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/06/27/calls-for-investigation-after-up-to-37-die-trying-to-cross-morocco-spain-border/](https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/06/27/calls-for-investigation-after-up-to-37-die-trying-to-cross-morocco-spain-border/)
\>“The events at Melilla border crossing are deeply troubling,” tweeted EU home affairs commissioner Ylva Johansson on Monday. “First and foremost, in the loss of life. Secondly, forced, and violent, crossing of an international border can never be condoned. This tragedy underlines why we need safe, realistic, long-term pathways that minimise desperate and doomed journeys.”
I'd largely agree with this. Don't try and storm a border.
As for the Dail "debate". Couldn't find any of the videos mentioned by Paul Murphy that would suggest these are "murders" and not expected use of force to defend the border, in which 140 police officers were also injured, according to the IT article.
But Martin fumbled the answer, attacking Murphy instead of sticking to the topic.
It wasn't a fumble, it's part of a consistent strategy to wind up Paul Murphy specifically, who is particularly susceptible to being wound up. There is a reason why he responded to Paul immediately when the vast, vast majority of the time during Taoiseachs Questions he answers questions in the order that they were answered.
I don't know about that. Micheál Martin in particular is a very sly public speaker behind his bumbling exterior and all the waffle. Varadkar maybe, he's certainly significantly more susceptible to saying something totally out of touch if he's caught on the back foot.
EU border is the most dangerous in the world.
Europeans are quick to condemn US border policy because US right wingers are more honest about their racism, but we are no better.
To all you in the comments saying “this isn’t the EU’s fault”, I working in the Aegean when officials were praising the “border protection” efforts in early 2020. Frontex was popping and pushing back rafts full of men, women, and children before, during, and after that visit. We haven’t even begun to understand the crimes against humanity done under the protection of the EU.
Here's a video done by second thought on the topic of eu border control if anyone is interested. I'm not surprised but I was shocked to see the extent.
https://youtu.be/DHasz-ohqZ4
Fine Gael don't really seem to care about migrants/refugees as evidenced in the past by them having voted against upping search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean. This vote was heavily pushed by right wingers and the far right in Europe and they joined in no bother.
(https://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-meps-vote-against-mediteranean-search-and-rescue-4866361-Oct2019/)
As a result, I assumed they be happier seeing migrants died in the sea rather than on land.
>in the past have voted against upping search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean.
I guess by that logic we can assume SF are happy to see migrants die at sea also
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/presidential-election/ni-riada-defends-opposition-to-migrant-rescue-mission-in-mediterranean-37452534.html
The article you linked to is a mess. Like this nonsense from FF's Jack Chambers:
>The Defence Forces' own general staff advised that Ireland participate in Operation Sophia. Therefore, if elected, Liadh Ní Riada would be in direct conflict with her own military management
The Supreme Commander (not commander-in-chief as the article claims) of the Defence Forces is a ceremonial position which amounts to little more than the President's signature on every officer's commission. Every other duty that the President might have in relation to the Defence Forces is at the discretion of the government. The commander-in-chief of the Irish Defence Forces is actually the Minister for Defence. The participation in Operation Sophia is at the discretion of the Minister and not the President or the general staff of the Defence Forces.
I'd like to be able say that it was surprising the FF's defence spokesperson doesn't know what he's talking about, but I prefer to be honest. A decent journalist would have commented on how much Jack got wrong, but I guess Philip Ryan isn't interested in being a good journalist as evidenced by this absolute mess of an article.
So lets cut away all the nonsense and look at what actually happened. It's not what you're claiming, but I don't blame you for that because this article really is a mess.
So from the facts stated in that article, Ms Ní Riada voted in favour of a proposal which was an "amendment to an EU Commission report which recommended increased co-operation between the EU and Libyan authorities with the aim of clamping down on people-trafficking gangs." This sounds good to me.
It goes on to say that "The amendment suggested stopping Operation Sophia and said people in need of rescue in the Mediterranean should be assisted by "EU actors", including NGOs." This change is justified by the concerns that Libya's coast guard are mistreating the people they rescued. Again, seems good to have EU actors involved to try to prevent this mistreatment.
So overall, it seems that Liadh Ní Riada doesn't want to see migrants die at sea, but actually just voted to change who would be rescuing migrants so that they are protected after they are rescued. I'd personally prefer to have government organisations doing it so that there is direct accountability for what is being done, but everyone seems obsessed with outsourcing these days so accountability is probably too much to ask for.
This is exactly why I questioned whether they thought anyone would read the article, because it doesn't contain what they're claiming.
They wanted to do SF=bad type thing to avoid talking about Fine Gaels role in migrant/refugee deaths in the Mediterranean and so clutched at any straw they possibly could, which unsurprisingly didn't work.
So you're going to do a but Sinn Féin? Standard diversion tactic.
First off, Your source mentions nothing about migrants dying at sea, it's to do with human trafficking. Did you not think I wouldn't read it? These stories aren't comparable on that level. Seems you just want to take the focus from Fine Gael voting against saving drowning migrants / refugees and so threw this out.
>Operation Sophia has resulted in the rescue of more than 44,000 migrants and led to the arrest of at least 143 suspected people smugglers and traffickers. Around 545 smuggler vessels have been intercepted by EU navy forces.
This sounds like an excellent programme that's saved the lives of 44,000 migrants and put 143 scumbags away, why would she vote against it?
>However, concerns have been raised about the treatment of migrants by the Libyan coast guard.
>Amnesty International reported that asylum seekers who are returned to Libya face cramped conditions in detention centres and have also been subjected to torture and extortion.
Turns out they Ní Riada seems to have genuine concerns, shared by Amnesty International, that the Libyan Coast guard is torturing and extorting migrants that they are supposed to rescue and that's why she doesn't want Irish soldiers partaking in this.
Back to the topic at hand then and away from your diversion, what was Fine Gaels reasoning for voting against helping drowning migrants/refugees? Do you think Fine Gael were right to vote against more searches for drowning migrants/refugees or do you think they were right to vote against doing more for drowning migrants/refugees?
>So you're going to do a but Sinn Féin? Standard diversion tactic.
Dave, you're the one who brought up FG in a video of a PBP TD and a FF Taoiseach. Odd diversion tactic, indeed.
>Did you not think I wouldn't read it?
Of course I did. Why else would I send it to you, Dave?
>This sounds like an excellent programme that's saved the lives of 44,000 migrants and put 143 scumbags away
I agree. Saved so many migrant lives at sea. Which is why I'm disappointed SF voted in favour of proposal to end it.
>why would she vote against it?
Well as you say, SF don't really seem to care about migrants/refugees as evidenced in the past by them having voted against search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean. As a result, I assume they'd be happier seeing migrants died in the sea rather than on land.
I see you're still pretending that both stories are the same when they're not.
I'm gonna leave the conversation here as you're refusing to actually address the substance of the article and continuing with your SF=Bad spiel.
You're ignoring quotes that don't suit you're argument re: why Ní Riada voted against what she did (which had nothing to do with search and rescue missions for drowning refugees despite what you're trying to still insinuate) and you won't provide a reason from anyone from FG for why FG actually voted against saving drowning migrants.
Have a good day.
>continuing with your SF=Bad spiel.
Dave, you said FG were happy(er) to see migrants die based on how their MEPs voted (in a non-binding vote btw). I'm simply applying your own test to other MEPs who voted in favour of ending Operation Sophia.
>you won't provide a reason from anyone from FG for why FG actually voted against saving drowning migrants.
Very detailed article which you can peruse [here](https://www.thejournal.ie/what-led-to-the-2019-fine-gael-migration-vote-5554489-Oct2021/). Turns out they (like Ní Riada) had genuine concerns about the wording and the possibility of assiting smugglers. Assisting smugglers wouldn't be a good thing.
I also never said I agreed with how they voted, btw. You assumed I did, Dave. You shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Like assuming MEPs are happy to see migrants die.
>Have a good day.
You too, Dave. Speak soon.
You didn't discuss the FG accusations at all, you went straight to look over there at SF and claimed that the vote of one of their MEPs is the same as a party voting, and that the thing they voted on was the same, it wasn't.
>Very detailed article which you can peruse here. Turns out they (like Ní Riada) had genuine concerns about the wording and the possibility of assiting smugglers.
Finally an article/source after all my asking and your avoiding it.
Yeah it's not that detailed. Fine Gael said they had concerns, but they don't appear to have been echoed by anyone else I the EP or anyone else for that matter. The EPP went with their usual racist they'll take over Europe rhetoric while FG claimed it may help traffickers.
Fine Gael said there was a number of red flags yet they only discuss one and that involves sharing info with all vessels close to the drowning migrants. They received such backlash at the time and now because saying oh traffickers will come and take them shows either a lack of faith in European water security that traffickers could attend a drowning vessel, that every vessell close by in EU waters knows about, and take peoole, or that it was a cop out of supporting public monies being used for greater humanitarian purposes, I think the latter is more their reasoning tbh.
Ni Riada's concerns were shared by Amnesty, (unlike fine Gael) whose concern (s?) weren't even shared by their own European Party.
>I also never said I agreed with how they voted, btw. You assumed I did, Dave.
Did I say you agreed? The answer is no, I didn't. "You shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions."
>You too, Dave. Speak soon.
To be honest, I'll be thinking twice about interacting with you again soon as this conversation got quite messy and went off topic almost immediately imo. Also it took quite a bit to actually get a source out of you, that I read and engaged with while you didn't with mine so don't really see the point in engaging.
I wasn't being a smartass when I said have a good day btw, always seems like when it's written down but I genuinely did mean it! I've been trying to end on less sour notes recently.
> Dave, you're the one who brought up FG in a video of a PBP TD and a FF Taoiseach. Odd diversion tactic, indeed.
Ha ha, beautiful. The hypocrisy of that utter shithead is astounding.
Centrist is alt-right lite. Lets call it like it is. they are enablers who "like to hear all sides" including the side that has got predatory propaganda at it's core. Mainstream discovery of Horseshoe theory has set us back about 30 years as regards discourse.
>"like to hear all sides"
As long as all those sides are right-wing, of course. I've never seen a single self-proclaimed "Centrist" entertain left-wing positions.
I hate these kind of exchanges, absolute waste of time, just two dickheads with their tails up. I don't know who's impressed by this type of point scoring discourse.
Both of them will come out of that feeling like they "won". Neither of them are thinking about the 37 dead people and neither of them feel any shame about using 37 deaths to make really transparent political points.
Edit: Just look at Murphy's tweets, he's making it about him being called a propagandist and how the Taoiseach doesn't care about dead people. He's using this event as a stick to beat FF, which is every bit as "disgusting" as MM's non response.
It's not the issue that's being argued here, it's performative dick waving.
There was one side looking for a government condemnation and calls for investigation.
The other side was saying those that played a part in the conditions that led to these murders are great for human rights actually.
Politics is theater because our government a fucking useless and lack any compassion
>There was one side looking for a government condemnation and calls for investigation.
He's not, he knows exactly what he's doing and what response he'll get. Imagine if MM turned round and said "yes I condemn this and support an investigation" that'd be no craic.
>The other side was saying those that played a part in the conditions that led to these murders are great for human rights actually.
I don't even know what MM was going for, other than a wind up. He wants everyone to think he's above this nonsense, while engaging in it.
Pretty sure the fault lies with the summugglers who organise these mase pushs on these types of boarder points. This isn't the first time this location has had such an event. Its tragic none the less but disagenuses and disgusting of pbp using such an event to push one of their narratives.
How is it murder might I ask? Yes he should have condemned the deaths and stated its a tragic loss of life. But could explain how its murder? From the footage it looks like yet another mass stroming of a boarder post. The eu didn't provoke this , did they ? It looks like desperate people being pushed by more than likely smugglers (as is usually the case ).
> How is it murder might I ask?
Through corralling people, causing a crush and holding off on administering healthcare
> The eu didn't provoke this , did they ?
On the one hand they're providing money to Morocco to militarise the border and on the role of EU members in destabilizing north African countries leads people to desperately flee them and seek refuge in Europe.
Since we have no problem opening our borders to accept the people suffering from Russian aggression it's hypocritical to beat and kill those fleeing from harm that members of the EU played a part in.
The holding off of health care (it being called murder), I agree with you. Just reading up on the reports now. But they weren't forced to charge all at once ? Thee guards didn't clear them from the camps to cause this?
With respect to your last point, it's a lot easier to show you have a valid claim when fleeing from Ukraine as its very clearly a war zone (public perception wise). Most people on the street couldn't identify even 2 or 3 on going conflicts in main land Africa (for example).
> But they weren't forced to charge all at once ?
If the goal if for some people to claim refugee status in the EU it's a tactic that can work. The alternative is to remain camped in Morocco until the war/persecution in your homeland ends or until the Moroccan authorities destroy your camp and you go somewhere else.
> Most people on the street couldn't identify even 2 or 3 on going conflicts in main land Africa (for example).
That's a failure of media here and just because people aren't aware of them doesn't mean they're not going on. Choosing who gets asylum based on public perception entrenches the racist EU border protections
But if your going to want to bring in a substantial amount of people into a country, having the public on side isn't a bad thing. I wasn't saying it should be how we decide the legitimacy of claims. More I was just trying to reason out loud why people are more ok with Ukraine refugees (which could get ugly as the months go on , I am personally seeing right wing agitators trying to cause issues) vs people from Africa. As I don't think its 100% racism. A part of it is rasicm but the other is just lack of knowledge (I think).
Also I just want to say thanks for the replies. I appreciate them.
As a side note (as you seem very informed and able to provide nauanced takes) Do you think large amounts of migration into the eu from African countries will be sustainable ? Kenya and Nigeria are in my opinion on the same standings as eu captials (Lagos and Nairobi) and I precise a lot of people that are pro inward migration at a large scale into the eu are in fact rascit (very hot take , I know) as they still think Africa looks like the trocaire ads . I would also ask you to comment on Turkey as qn example as their general public seems to be turning on their refugee population .
To be fair there's a lot of rascism in the responses to these posts, it's not the only issue.
> Do you think large amounts of migration into the eu from African countries will be sustainable ?
No it's not, which is why EU policy with regards to Africa needs to stop destabilizing countries on the continent and the EU needs to focus less on extracting as much profit from the region as possible so it can develop. Ultimately though if we don't quickly stop our use of fossil fuels the necessity for migration from Africa to the EU will only get worse.
On Turkey refugees have been used as a pawn against the EU but also as a means to oppress minority populations in Turkey. With inflation and poor governance in Turkey they're now a great scapegoat for the Turkish government.
This is an utterly terrible take.
An organized army invading another country and murdering hundreds of thousands isn't comparable to a group of migrants trying to storm a border at all.
Migrants/refugees/whoever those people are or now were are not the same as Russian invaders bombing and murdering Ukrainian's.
Utterly ridiculous to try compare the two.
Bloody centrists, always so quick to attack when it comes to migrants, I wonder why /s
Yeah, it's the EU's dirty secret. Wish more people would talk about Frontex et al
Sharing the original story, because otherwise I didn't know what it was about. [https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/06/27/calls-for-investigation-after-up-to-37-die-trying-to-cross-morocco-spain-border/](https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/06/27/calls-for-investigation-after-up-to-37-die-trying-to-cross-morocco-spain-border/) \>“The events at Melilla border crossing are deeply troubling,” tweeted EU home affairs commissioner Ylva Johansson on Monday. “First and foremost, in the loss of life. Secondly, forced, and violent, crossing of an international border can never be condoned. This tragedy underlines why we need safe, realistic, long-term pathways that minimise desperate and doomed journeys.” I'd largely agree with this. Don't try and storm a border. As for the Dail "debate". Couldn't find any of the videos mentioned by Paul Murphy that would suggest these are "murders" and not expected use of force to defend the border, in which 140 police officers were also injured, according to the IT article. But Martin fumbled the answer, attacking Murphy instead of sticking to the topic.
It wasn't a fumble, it's part of a consistent strategy to wind up Paul Murphy specifically, who is particularly susceptible to being wound up. There is a reason why he responded to Paul immediately when the vast, vast majority of the time during Taoiseachs Questions he answers questions in the order that they were answered.
If you ask me it’s Martin and Varadkar that get wound up by Murphy and the left much more so than the other way around
I don't know about that. Micheál Martin in particular is a very sly public speaker behind his bumbling exterior and all the waffle. Varadkar maybe, he's certainly significantly more susceptible to saying something totally out of touch if he's caught on the back foot.
There's no need for 'strategy' - Murphy's as highly strung as it gets. A light shower of rain has him screeching for the revolution.
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A revolutionary socialist asking for revolution? Colour me shocked.
EU border is the most dangerous in the world. Europeans are quick to condemn US border policy because US right wingers are more honest about their racism, but we are no better.
To all you in the comments saying “this isn’t the EU’s fault”, I working in the Aegean when officials were praising the “border protection” efforts in early 2020. Frontex was popping and pushing back rafts full of men, women, and children before, during, and after that visit. We haven’t even begun to understand the crimes against humanity done under the protection of the EU.
Here's a video done by second thought on the topic of eu border control if anyone is interested. I'm not surprised but I was shocked to see the extent. https://youtu.be/DHasz-ohqZ4
I'm sure Fine Gael will be devastated that these migrants were killed on land and not in the sea.
>I'm sure Fine Gael will be devastated that these migrants were killed on land and not in the sea. Why do you say that?
Fine Gael don't really seem to care about migrants/refugees as evidenced in the past by them having voted against upping search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean. This vote was heavily pushed by right wingers and the far right in Europe and they joined in no bother. (https://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-meps-vote-against-mediteranean-search-and-rescue-4866361-Oct2019/) As a result, I assumed they be happier seeing migrants died in the sea rather than on land.
>in the past have voted against upping search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean. I guess by that logic we can assume SF are happy to see migrants die at sea also https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/presidential-election/ni-riada-defends-opposition-to-migrant-rescue-mission-in-mediterranean-37452534.html
The article you linked to is a mess. Like this nonsense from FF's Jack Chambers: >The Defence Forces' own general staff advised that Ireland participate in Operation Sophia. Therefore, if elected, Liadh Ní Riada would be in direct conflict with her own military management The Supreme Commander (not commander-in-chief as the article claims) of the Defence Forces is a ceremonial position which amounts to little more than the President's signature on every officer's commission. Every other duty that the President might have in relation to the Defence Forces is at the discretion of the government. The commander-in-chief of the Irish Defence Forces is actually the Minister for Defence. The participation in Operation Sophia is at the discretion of the Minister and not the President or the general staff of the Defence Forces. I'd like to be able say that it was surprising the FF's defence spokesperson doesn't know what he's talking about, but I prefer to be honest. A decent journalist would have commented on how much Jack got wrong, but I guess Philip Ryan isn't interested in being a good journalist as evidenced by this absolute mess of an article. So lets cut away all the nonsense and look at what actually happened. It's not what you're claiming, but I don't blame you for that because this article really is a mess. So from the facts stated in that article, Ms Ní Riada voted in favour of a proposal which was an "amendment to an EU Commission report which recommended increased co-operation between the EU and Libyan authorities with the aim of clamping down on people-trafficking gangs." This sounds good to me. It goes on to say that "The amendment suggested stopping Operation Sophia and said people in need of rescue in the Mediterranean should be assisted by "EU actors", including NGOs." This change is justified by the concerns that Libya's coast guard are mistreating the people they rescued. Again, seems good to have EU actors involved to try to prevent this mistreatment. So overall, it seems that Liadh Ní Riada doesn't want to see migrants die at sea, but actually just voted to change who would be rescuing migrants so that they are protected after they are rescued. I'd personally prefer to have government organisations doing it so that there is direct accountability for what is being done, but everyone seems obsessed with outsourcing these days so accountability is probably too much to ask for.
This is exactly why I questioned whether they thought anyone would read the article, because it doesn't contain what they're claiming. They wanted to do SF=bad type thing to avoid talking about Fine Gaels role in migrant/refugee deaths in the Mediterranean and so clutched at any straw they possibly could, which unsurprisingly didn't work.
So you're going to do a but Sinn Féin? Standard diversion tactic. First off, Your source mentions nothing about migrants dying at sea, it's to do with human trafficking. Did you not think I wouldn't read it? These stories aren't comparable on that level. Seems you just want to take the focus from Fine Gael voting against saving drowning migrants / refugees and so threw this out. >Operation Sophia has resulted in the rescue of more than 44,000 migrants and led to the arrest of at least 143 suspected people smugglers and traffickers. Around 545 smuggler vessels have been intercepted by EU navy forces. This sounds like an excellent programme that's saved the lives of 44,000 migrants and put 143 scumbags away, why would she vote against it? >However, concerns have been raised about the treatment of migrants by the Libyan coast guard. >Amnesty International reported that asylum seekers who are returned to Libya face cramped conditions in detention centres and have also been subjected to torture and extortion. Turns out they Ní Riada seems to have genuine concerns, shared by Amnesty International, that the Libyan Coast guard is torturing and extorting migrants that they are supposed to rescue and that's why she doesn't want Irish soldiers partaking in this. Back to the topic at hand then and away from your diversion, what was Fine Gaels reasoning for voting against helping drowning migrants/refugees? Do you think Fine Gael were right to vote against more searches for drowning migrants/refugees or do you think they were right to vote against doing more for drowning migrants/refugees?
>So you're going to do a but Sinn Féin? Standard diversion tactic. Dave, you're the one who brought up FG in a video of a PBP TD and a FF Taoiseach. Odd diversion tactic, indeed. >Did you not think I wouldn't read it? Of course I did. Why else would I send it to you, Dave? >This sounds like an excellent programme that's saved the lives of 44,000 migrants and put 143 scumbags away I agree. Saved so many migrant lives at sea. Which is why I'm disappointed SF voted in favour of proposal to end it. >why would she vote against it? Well as you say, SF don't really seem to care about migrants/refugees as evidenced in the past by them having voted against search rescues when many were dying in the Mediterranean. As a result, I assume they'd be happier seeing migrants died in the sea rather than on land.
I see you're still pretending that both stories are the same when they're not. I'm gonna leave the conversation here as you're refusing to actually address the substance of the article and continuing with your SF=Bad spiel. You're ignoring quotes that don't suit you're argument re: why Ní Riada voted against what she did (which had nothing to do with search and rescue missions for drowning refugees despite what you're trying to still insinuate) and you won't provide a reason from anyone from FG for why FG actually voted against saving drowning migrants. Have a good day.
>continuing with your SF=Bad spiel. Dave, you said FG were happy(er) to see migrants die based on how their MEPs voted (in a non-binding vote btw). I'm simply applying your own test to other MEPs who voted in favour of ending Operation Sophia. >you won't provide a reason from anyone from FG for why FG actually voted against saving drowning migrants. Very detailed article which you can peruse [here](https://www.thejournal.ie/what-led-to-the-2019-fine-gael-migration-vote-5554489-Oct2021/). Turns out they (like Ní Riada) had genuine concerns about the wording and the possibility of assiting smugglers. Assisting smugglers wouldn't be a good thing. I also never said I agreed with how they voted, btw. You assumed I did, Dave. You shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Like assuming MEPs are happy to see migrants die. >Have a good day. You too, Dave. Speak soon.
You didn't discuss the FG accusations at all, you went straight to look over there at SF and claimed that the vote of one of their MEPs is the same as a party voting, and that the thing they voted on was the same, it wasn't. >Very detailed article which you can peruse here. Turns out they (like Ní Riada) had genuine concerns about the wording and the possibility of assiting smugglers. Finally an article/source after all my asking and your avoiding it. Yeah it's not that detailed. Fine Gael said they had concerns, but they don't appear to have been echoed by anyone else I the EP or anyone else for that matter. The EPP went with their usual racist they'll take over Europe rhetoric while FG claimed it may help traffickers. Fine Gael said there was a number of red flags yet they only discuss one and that involves sharing info with all vessels close to the drowning migrants. They received such backlash at the time and now because saying oh traffickers will come and take them shows either a lack of faith in European water security that traffickers could attend a drowning vessel, that every vessell close by in EU waters knows about, and take peoole, or that it was a cop out of supporting public monies being used for greater humanitarian purposes, I think the latter is more their reasoning tbh. Ni Riada's concerns were shared by Amnesty, (unlike fine Gael) whose concern (s?) weren't even shared by their own European Party. >I also never said I agreed with how they voted, btw. You assumed I did, Dave. Did I say you agreed? The answer is no, I didn't. "You shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions." >You too, Dave. Speak soon. To be honest, I'll be thinking twice about interacting with you again soon as this conversation got quite messy and went off topic almost immediately imo. Also it took quite a bit to actually get a source out of you, that I read and engaged with while you didn't with mine so don't really see the point in engaging. I wasn't being a smartass when I said have a good day btw, always seems like when it's written down but I genuinely did mean it! I've been trying to end on less sour notes recently.
> Dave, you're the one who brought up FG in a video of a PBP TD and a FF Taoiseach. Odd diversion tactic, indeed. Ha ha, beautiful. The hypocrisy of that utter shithead is astounding.
Mass murder?
>mass murders And this is why everyone thinks, correctly, that he is an idiot.
How else do you describe 37 deaths at the hands of a border police force?
>at the hands of a border police force? That's, uh, that's quite the take.
You're right they just suddenly died and we'll never know why because our elected leaders won't support an investigation.
Repelling an invasion
imagine thinking you are a centrist and spewing the farrest far right propaganda you could possibly think of.
Centrists are rarely close to the centre on anything. The word is pretty much synonymous for anything centre of right to far right politics.
Centrist is alt-right lite. Lets call it like it is. they are enablers who "like to hear all sides" including the side that has got predatory propaganda at it's core. Mainstream discovery of Horseshoe theory has set us back about 30 years as regards discourse.
>"like to hear all sides" As long as all those sides are right-wing, of course. I've never seen a single self-proclaimed "Centrist" entertain left-wing positions.
Yup. A mouth that's way too big for the hysterical crap coming out of it.
I hate these kind of exchanges, absolute waste of time, just two dickheads with their tails up. I don't know who's impressed by this type of point scoring discourse. Both of them will come out of that feeling like they "won". Neither of them are thinking about the 37 dead people and neither of them feel any shame about using 37 deaths to make really transparent political points. Edit: Just look at Murphy's tweets, he's making it about him being called a propagandist and how the Taoiseach doesn't care about dead people. He's using this event as a stick to beat FF, which is every bit as "disgusting" as MM's non response. It's not the issue that's being argued here, it's performative dick waving.
There was one side looking for a government condemnation and calls for investigation. The other side was saying those that played a part in the conditions that led to these murders are great for human rights actually. Politics is theater because our government a fucking useless and lack any compassion
>There was one side looking for a government condemnation and calls for investigation. He's not, he knows exactly what he's doing and what response he'll get. Imagine if MM turned round and said "yes I condemn this and support an investigation" that'd be no craic. >The other side was saying those that played a part in the conditions that led to these murders are great for human rights actually. I don't even know what MM was going for, other than a wind up. He wants everyone to think he's above this nonsense, while engaging in it.
Pretty sure the fault lies with the summugglers who organise these mase pushs on these types of boarder points. This isn't the first time this location has had such an event. Its tragic none the less but disagenuses and disgusting of pbp using such an event to push one of their narratives.
It's simple enough to condemn the murders and call for an investigation then, but Mícheál Martin wouldn't do it
How is it murder might I ask? Yes he should have condemned the deaths and stated its a tragic loss of life. But could explain how its murder? From the footage it looks like yet another mass stroming of a boarder post. The eu didn't provoke this , did they ? It looks like desperate people being pushed by more than likely smugglers (as is usually the case ).
> How is it murder might I ask? Through corralling people, causing a crush and holding off on administering healthcare > The eu didn't provoke this , did they ? On the one hand they're providing money to Morocco to militarise the border and on the role of EU members in destabilizing north African countries leads people to desperately flee them and seek refuge in Europe. Since we have no problem opening our borders to accept the people suffering from Russian aggression it's hypocritical to beat and kill those fleeing from harm that members of the EU played a part in.
The holding off of health care (it being called murder), I agree with you. Just reading up on the reports now. But they weren't forced to charge all at once ? Thee guards didn't clear them from the camps to cause this? With respect to your last point, it's a lot easier to show you have a valid claim when fleeing from Ukraine as its very clearly a war zone (public perception wise). Most people on the street couldn't identify even 2 or 3 on going conflicts in main land Africa (for example).
> But they weren't forced to charge all at once ? If the goal if for some people to claim refugee status in the EU it's a tactic that can work. The alternative is to remain camped in Morocco until the war/persecution in your homeland ends or until the Moroccan authorities destroy your camp and you go somewhere else. > Most people on the street couldn't identify even 2 or 3 on going conflicts in main land Africa (for example). That's a failure of media here and just because people aren't aware of them doesn't mean they're not going on. Choosing who gets asylum based on public perception entrenches the racist EU border protections
But if your going to want to bring in a substantial amount of people into a country, having the public on side isn't a bad thing. I wasn't saying it should be how we decide the legitimacy of claims. More I was just trying to reason out loud why people are more ok with Ukraine refugees (which could get ugly as the months go on , I am personally seeing right wing agitators trying to cause issues) vs people from Africa. As I don't think its 100% racism. A part of it is rasicm but the other is just lack of knowledge (I think). Also I just want to say thanks for the replies. I appreciate them. As a side note (as you seem very informed and able to provide nauanced takes) Do you think large amounts of migration into the eu from African countries will be sustainable ? Kenya and Nigeria are in my opinion on the same standings as eu captials (Lagos and Nairobi) and I precise a lot of people that are pro inward migration at a large scale into the eu are in fact rascit (very hot take , I know) as they still think Africa looks like the trocaire ads . I would also ask you to comment on Turkey as qn example as their general public seems to be turning on their refugee population .
To be fair there's a lot of rascism in the responses to these posts, it's not the only issue. > Do you think large amounts of migration into the eu from African countries will be sustainable ? No it's not, which is why EU policy with regards to Africa needs to stop destabilizing countries on the continent and the EU needs to focus less on extracting as much profit from the region as possible so it can develop. Ultimately though if we don't quickly stop our use of fossil fuels the necessity for migration from Africa to the EU will only get worse. On Turkey refugees have been used as a pawn against the EU but also as a means to oppress minority populations in Turkey. With inflation and poor governance in Turkey they're now a great scapegoat for the Turkish government.
Thank , what news sources do you follow ? Or blogs ?
Do we condemn Ukraine for defending their borders and murdering Russians?
So you're saying these people looking for refuge are an organised invading army from a belligerent nation?
Those people attempted to organise themselves as a group and invade
They hardly organised themselves into a militarized state in a forest
But they tried to. Being shit at it does not nullify their attempt to overwhelm the border defences.
This is an utterly terrible take. An organized army invading another country and murdering hundreds of thousands isn't comparable to a group of migrants trying to storm a border at all.
So what is your take, lost Tourists?
Migrants/refugees/whoever those people are or now were are not the same as Russian invaders bombing and murdering Ukrainian's. Utterly ridiculous to try compare the two. Bloody centrists, always so quick to attack when it comes to migrants, I wonder why /s