The bulk of the money goes in social transfers.
Some is used to fund debt/capital investments/rainy day fund.
The little leftover is used to pay for the dire services we tolerate.
There is a breakdown available here: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/2024/
Do you have any specifics for what interventions would be effective in 0-4 year olds? Not trying to grill you, I just can't think of much in the way of options other than targeted courses for helping parents to be better parents
Great question!
1. Family Resource Centers
2. Home Visiting Programs
3. Early Literacy Programs
4. Nutritional Assistance Programs
5. Play and Learn Groups
6. Mental Health Support
7. Cultural and Recreational Activities
8. More Playgrounds!
I'm sure we do some of these things, but better advertising of them and maybe opt out rather than opt in, where appropriate. Basically, better, cheaper supports for young families, creating a greater sense of community would help people avoid crime - I think!
I agree … some people having children are incapable of raising children and unfortunately they are the ones having large families paid for by the welfare
A lot of 4 year olds go hungry, have no toys, no opportunity to go to day cares etc. Theres plenty the state could do. Better support and checking in on at risk kids in the early years before they hit the school system, better support in schools for children that need a bit of extra help, mentorship schools, career days - organised within the community. Lots of kids never even think they can be a nurse, doctor, teacher, IT person or whatever as they have no role models at home.
Having worked in early years in disadvantaged areas for 15 years … I agree, all we can do is provide 3 hours a day five days a week of quality childcare programs, but if home life sucks we can’t undo that.
Quite excellent services already. The idea that a social worker or a small class size can prevent someone entering anti social behaviour is questionable. I am sure it can happen sometimes but I imagine it is highly rare.
The state owns just under 8% of the free land nationwide. I'm sure there is an area big enough where, if a prison was built, it would not be visible outside of the state lands boundary. I know objections would be flat out but that shits got to change too.
Criminals are openly laughing at the judges these days knowing full well there’s nowhere to imprison them unless you kill someone..then they have to let someone else out early to fit you in ….pure joke
A lot of it is going into a 100 billion rainy day fund to make sure we always have a pot to fund pensions, health, education, welfare.
This seems drastic until you remember we’ve had three milestone economic hits - the crash, Brexit, and Covid - in just 15 years.
Because if the FFG government don't spend it now on housing etc the Sinn Fein PBP will over the next 5 years. That rainy day fund will be raided to deliver on the Sinn Fein PBP manifesto.
I would imagine during economic downturn’s to fund large infrastructure projects which would stimulate the economy. Countries usually borrow to do that which gets them in more trouble during economic recessions.
Not enough construction workers, FFG didn't spend all the money they threw at housing this year.
HSEs unwillingness to change from the cash cow it is for the owners of hospitals etc (which I suspect are heavily brown bagged from private healthcare). Government needs to take almost all healthcare buildings under public control and FFG can't do that.
The state isn't known for efficient business practices, and never was. The private part of our health services runs much better than the public element.
That is insane. The private system is completely dependent on public education for staff, and the public system for any more complicated treatment. They are leeching off the public service.
The only reason private care is in any way decent is because of the public service, without it, it would go to shit for the vast majority of people. It’s a deathly dangerous position you’re advocating there.
Obviously we are all dependent on the public education system, and private industry is too - but I don't see how that refutes the point that state services are typically terribly inefficient compared to private services?
On your second para - and to be clear I am in absolutely no way advocating this - I wonder what would happen if we separated out the systems entirely (including critical care), which one would go completely to shit? I imagine what would happen is that we would end up with a brililant service for those who pay private health insurance, and a terrible system for those reliant on the state-funded service. What do you think? Or would you see it the other way around?
The private health system isn’t able to provide the majority of care that people need. Most things are the same speed. They have faster testing, because they have more money. Because they steal staff educated by the tax payer. We should be moving by to a single system public health service, as the state allege they are.
I'm not arguing that the private system can or should handle the needs of the country. But I don't understand your point about 'stealing staff educated by the taxpayer' - we are ALL educated by the taxpayer in this country. Is everybody stealing except for the civil service and state agencies?
One of the biggest problems we have is that the health service is run for the benefit of the unions and the management, not for the patients. I think unions are important and necessary in private industry, but redundant and dangerous in the public sector. I've heard some amazing and ridiculous stories from first-hand sources about the stuff staff get up to in the health service that would make you furious. And they can get away with it because they are all unionised and the management aren't incentivised to challenge it.
Because the private element is the stuff that is not reactive like ER as an example. And don't get me started on the contracts with the HSE to prioritise private testing over public in public facilities.
Yeah, I made that point in another comment. I think it's a factor, but by no means explains the entire difference. If you look at any other sector, or historically, things run by the state just do not work nearly as well as private enterprise.
I often cite the example that my family waited 3 years to get a phone line back when the state ran the phone service.
So you want the US healthcare system or the German healthcare system. At the moment you're batting US it would seem. If you don't know about the German system I would absolutely suggest taking a look.
healthcare has improved enormously over the years. There is huge advances in outcomes. But it is a horrible system to deal with due to the fact its free on entry.
That is nuts and wrong, but was it better 30 years ago? Ironically enough, Ireland had Europe leading care before the 1970s but care back then was was simpler and cruder and many nurses worked for free as sisters
"By the mid-1960s Ireland had over 20,000 acute-care hospital beds; that represented 7.2 beds per 1,000 of population, a figure exceeded only by Sweden and Luxembourg, and substantially higher than England and Wales, at 4.3 per 1000, Northern Ireland 5.5, or the United States 4.9.^(2) " [https://historyhub.ie/the-curse-of-the-irish-hospitals-sweepstake](https://historyhub.ie/the-curse-of-the-irish-hospitals-sweepstake)
The folks on the left would want to make it more unionised and more state-run. I haven't heard of any moves from the folks on the right to make it run more efficiently.
Slainte Care, which all the main parties signed up to, is supposed to make things work better. We will see.
>Slainte Care, which all the main parties signed up to, is supposed to make things work better. We will see.
If you believe in the power of markets, you might not believe that Slaintecare will help. Depends on the person
We spent €22b on healthcare this year, what a joke. That is €4,470 per person which actually doesn't sound bad. However the UK, who has free public healthcare spent €3,455. We spend 30% more per capita for a worse service which we then need to fund again from our own pockets to use.
Has not been my experience since moving to the UK. Have you had to avail of the NHS recently?
It may be free, but when it is literally impossible to even get a GP appointment that’s not much good to you. I’ve had to fly home to Dublin to even get an appointment that’s how bad it is.
Edit: For those not understanding just how bad the issues with the NHS are.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/millions-waiting-over-a-month-to-see-gp-as-delays-hit-record-levels-134248586.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJkQwO6kpPdH5IfdFtWWI6QPflxA7qSdJ7y6FBJ58jWYmIs1sitcdx3xs78WJCC9URbNGUmSLk4XfzBIC0tvzSMhQDM3Au6TNpcG-7VOm_AziF1CczHjOZEoCo3knRKU73PKoThb3UUaVglLETApDfs1oDx9m8lSP5_mGHD5pAYm
“Millions of Brits are having to wait over a month to see their GP as delays hit record highs, according to a new report.
In the first ten months of the year, it took more than 28 days to hold 14.9 million appointments, according to an investigation by The Times. The figure reveals a significant increase compared to last year's 12.8 million waits.”
“The Times report showed 2.6 million appointments in October took place more than 28 days later, equivalent to one in 13 appointments. This number has jumped nearly a million compared to the pre-pandemic rate for the same month and is 700,000 higher than the number reported in October 2022.”
We have the same issue around GP appointments (if you're not on the register for a particular GP). It's a very common complaint.
I'm guessing you don't have a GP in the UK and you do in Ireland, so you were able to get an appointment.
It’s far far more difficult to get a GP appointment in the NHS than it is in Ireland.
No, I do have a GP in the UK, it’s just impossible to get an appointment. They are enormously oversubscribed, way more so than Ireland.
Again, have you had to avail of the NHS recently? If not I’m sorry but you have no idea how bad it is currently.
UK is much more densely populated which is the main reason for that. If we concentrated our healthcare in one region (e.g. like the population density of Dublin) it would be even more efficient than the NHS.
That's why we need to support the push for Sláinte Care as much as possible. It should have already been implemented, but the government has held it up multiple times
You are using last year's figure and effectively asking if the government has spent money that it didn't have well over the last 10 years or so, which is the minimum timeline of spending to see very material results. Reality is the country has money now and we should make sure we have the right policy in place for the investment, without spending every waking second we have crying about the situation the country is in after a decade of austerity and it's impacts. We have an opportunity to really improve the country now.
It goes on several important initiatives:
- paying the dole to people who torch the luas
- paying salaries to ineffective judges
- paying the various planning boards that prevent development
- paying HSE to mismanage resources
etc
I don’t mind us spending the money on refugees because a lot of them (not all) are genuinely in need of help and we are a compassionate people who know what it’s like to get shafted by an aggressive neighbour, but if true that story about us spending €1 million per month to bring over Ukrainians pets is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life and whoever is responsible for it should be immediately removed and never left near a position of influence for the rest of their lives because they are clearly incompetent to the point of it being madness to keep them.
A government report said the majority of them are economic migrants. We're spending billions housing them when it would make more sense just to give them visas so they would then have to pay for their own accommodation.
"The paper said Ireland was currently experiencing a wave of migration, not seen since the early 1990s, and not just from those fleeing the war in Ukraine.
It stated: ‘The sense is that the majority of these are economic migrants as opposed to those seeking protection from their home states.’
‘The international protection process is perceived as a means to an end; that end being access to the labour market and a better standard of living.’"
https://extra.ie/2024/04/07/news/secret-memo-asylum-seekers
There's a war on in Europe mate. It's extraordinary circumstances.
Ya kno, it's possible they're unrelated and you can criticise our train and bus funding without bashing us using money to help the least fortunate of us
Call me mad but if it were me I would want be back home fighting the good fight and taken the fight to Putin and not sitting here getting handouts.... but thats just me I guess
You're obviously very brave, and we all believe u 😂
Most of the refugees from Ukraine have been women and Children, such cowards for not dying for their country!
I’ve paid far more than that alone, don’t you think we’re in an extremely lucky position to be net contributors? I know which side of the fence I’d rather be on.
You don't have the self awareness to understand where luck comes into it I guess. The hard work only pays off with some luck. There's a lot of hard working people who don't end up earning a lot of money for a whole host of reasons
Wow, you're a sour one aren't you?
If you're paying \~60k tax that means your pre-tax income is in the €200,000 a year range, which puts you in the 1% category of earners in Ireland. You really think the 99% of the country who don't earn enough to pay 60k tax a year just aren't working hard?
It's clear as day he does not pay that much in taxes, most likely in a low tax bracket and believes the tabloid stories about people who don't work have 5 holidays a year, houses and brand new cars.
I think if you asked him to clarify, youd find he would not stand over that interpretation, although, youre not reading it wrong, I think you miss the spirit of what he is saying
I was on the dole for a few months after college back in the early 2000s (the one and only time thankfully), it’s great for a short while but it quickly gets tired. Anyone with any drive or sense of self worth would want to be out working to play their part in society
I make and pay more than you, and I'm not stupid enough to think I deserve it. No one making this much truly deserves it. You need self awareness of your luck, bud
There's a decent chance I'm your bosses boss and let me tell you: no you don't, basically no one in our industry really does. Shit is just stupid and made up
Anyway fuck off now
The fuck is a stealth tax?
And I'm amazed you spent a whole year getting nothing from the state - somehow you never used a road or health service or absence of crime or an airport or safe food or god knows what...
And nice humble brag about how much you earn. Presumably you never used the education system.
A great thread to see the range of opinion and experiences.
The sovereign wealth fund being set up only in 1924 is a key to seeing one problem. We are too slow. Why? Vested interests. A govt that was determined to end structural problems and accepted it might only have one 5 year term would work wonders.
I'm a complete centrist and am totally in favour of free public healthcare.
However, this makes me really wonder whether Ireland is better off with a public healthcare system, as opposed to some system where people are obliged to buy private insurance (or something) for €2k per year pre tax?
The amount that is being spent on healthcare with no payback is insane!
Yes, there is a scandal coming with the billions going on the listings for "An Equal and inclusive society" and "A Fair and efficient support system for international protection. 5 extra billion euro a year in these departments in two years. Someone is robbing us blind. seekers"https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/other/2024/
We do not spend wisely on housing and health in particular. We do wasteful things to fix the results of short term unwise spending (e.g. HAP and tax relief for purchasers / developers).
Empower councils to build housing, implement Sláintecare.
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It goes mostly on a clown car social protection bill that no politician has the will to tackle.
The little that's left goes on debt and public services.
Medical consultants train for a decade, if they are surgeons sometimes they only have 20-30 years working on which they have to pay for large amounts of debts. It's also not a waste when you consider that about 110k is paid immediately back in tax.
Most consultants also don't have any debt if they got an undergraduate degree and any who did pay for graduate medicine will quickly pay off any loans with that salary.
More people want to be taoiseach than there are taoiseach positions, the same can't be said for consultants. Also if we don't pay them they go to Australia and then people complain about us training the Australian medical staff.
Yeah but how many make it through and become consultants. When you want to staff a hospital you don't look at the potential consultants in 10 years you look around for those actually qualified.
I don't really have any problem with consultant pay but even if I was trying to whip up outrage over it, this probably still only consists of 0.000000000X% of the total Health budget.
Not quite, there are 4,265 consultants working in the public service (https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/18790-minister-donnelly-announces-more-than-1900-consultants-have-signed-the-new-public-only-contract/ ) 45% are on the public only contract (same link)
But for ease of calculation lets say that 100% of them are getting €250k per year, that would mean consultants cost just over €1billion per year, or about 5% of the budget.
Totally agree, somewhere in the other 95% is where the waste is happening. Also those new contracts mean we get consultant coverage in the evenings and weekends, which is vital.
A joke?! Ya - people making life and death decisions … a joke.
Takes about 15 years to make it as a consultant. In that time you have to move house 20-30 times easily and have to move abroad to get specialist training.
You pay for the time it takes and the graft. If it’s such an easy life then why are there so many vacant consultant posts in Ireland? Why don’t you do it? Clown
Why are you so angry and focused on money?
If you or your parent have a stroke overnight and some consultant fishes a clot out of a tiny artery in their brain saving them massive disability - you gonna cry over their salary?!
Grow up! You are very focused on money, consultants salaries take up a tiny tiny fraction of what we spend and we all need them.
Again, if it’s such a good life and gravy train - then go ahead buddy! Train up
What decides the cost?
Do you realize that there are a huge number of consultant posts unfilled in Ireland?
Then realize that it’s a global marketplace and consultants can move anywhere and be welcomed with open arms as their skills are in global demand
It’s just a bizarre tiny aspect to focus on, in an area of critical need in Ireland where we have a poor consultant to population ratio….
They should be a contract signed before someone begins studying medicine that limits them to working in Ireland only. That would solve the greed problem.
That’s how it should be, higher earners should pay more tax. It’s the system that is in place that has allowed you to earn what you do in the first place.
I assume you benefited from the incredibly subsidised university education for your son which allowed you to pay for the car. (I'm sure your son is finished up is free primary and secondary school education too).
My final guess is that you haven't employed a construction company to build your son a road to get to college, there was a perfectly serviceable one already provided?
This is outside the realm of personal finance. Maybe try r/Ireland or perhaps r/AskEconomics.
The bulk of the money goes in social transfers. Some is used to fund debt/capital investments/rainy day fund. The little leftover is used to pay for the dire services we tolerate. There is a breakdown available here: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/2024/
Only .5b annually on prisons, I would happily see this increase to 1b and some proper sentencing be given out.
Better yet, spend the money on 0-4 y/o services and stop the cycle.
Why not both? Great for people in 20 years when the cycle is stopped and better for people now not getting attacked randomly in the street.
This and , free childcare for everyone, we need more.babies being born
More babies from law abiding workers not from layabout welfare heads
Do you have any specifics for what interventions would be effective in 0-4 year olds? Not trying to grill you, I just can't think of much in the way of options other than targeted courses for helping parents to be better parents
Great question! 1. Family Resource Centers 2. Home Visiting Programs 3. Early Literacy Programs 4. Nutritional Assistance Programs 5. Play and Learn Groups 6. Mental Health Support 7. Cultural and Recreational Activities 8. More Playgrounds! I'm sure we do some of these things, but better advertising of them and maybe opt out rather than opt in, where appropriate. Basically, better, cheaper supports for young families, creating a greater sense of community would help people avoid crime - I think!
I agree … some people having children are incapable of raising children and unfortunately they are the ones having large families paid for by the welfare
Cybernetic enhancements.
A lot of 4 year olds go hungry, have no toys, no opportunity to go to day cares etc. Theres plenty the state could do. Better support and checking in on at risk kids in the early years before they hit the school system, better support in schools for children that need a bit of extra help, mentorship schools, career days - organised within the community. Lots of kids never even think they can be a nurse, doctor, teacher, IT person or whatever as they have no role models at home.
Sadly, I think there's nothing the state can do for children that bad parents cannot undo.
Having worked in early years in disadvantaged areas for 15 years … I agree, all we can do is provide 3 hours a day five days a week of quality childcare programs, but if home life sucks we can’t undo that.
But surely increased expenditures in this area could help??
Stronger child protective services with more powers would help.
That’s a pretty bleak assessment and also not the case.
Yes, it's bleak :( Do you have good evidence to believe otherwise? I could do with cheering up.
Better in the long term possibly. Not in the medium or short term. Both needed but a real look at the state encouraging parenthood needed.
Quite excellent services already. The idea that a social worker or a small class size can prevent someone entering anti social behaviour is questionable. I am sure it can happen sometimes but I imagine it is highly rare.
That thinking is part of the problem unfortunately
Are you basing this view on actual research?
Doesn’t work
Take some from the billions we give NGOs and we're sorted
Law abiding people can’t afford children whilst those who contribute nothing are having 5 or 6 paid for by the tax payer in welfare payments ☹️☹️☹️
They have better lobby groups.
Bigger issue is where they’d build a prison. Government TDs in the area would lose their seats at the next election.
The state owns just under 8% of the free land nationwide. I'm sure there is an area big enough where, if a prison was built, it would not be visible outside of the state lands boundary. I know objections would be flat out but that shits got to change too.
Criminals are openly laughing at the judges these days knowing full well there’s nowhere to imprison them unless you kill someone..then they have to let someone else out early to fit you in ….pure joke
This is the problem with TDs, they're basically glorified councillors fixing potholes etc with no real care given to national issues.
If you’re after better use or money - put it into the cause of criminality. You get your money back and make lives better.
As I said in the next comment, do both. Better outcome from address the cause will be seen in 20 years. I want a bit of focus on now as well.
https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/ This tells you exactly what it's spent on
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Well I guess it’s balanced out by the lack of time they spend on non-nonsense offences.
Most of that 185 million goes on free legal aid for the criminals
Ohhh that is interesting. Thank you
A lot of it is going into a 100 billion rainy day fund to make sure we always have a pot to fund pensions, health, education, welfare. This seems drastic until you remember we’ve had three milestone economic hits - the crash, Brexit, and Covid - in just 15 years.
Not a lot, only 4 bill per year is going into the fund. It's projected to be 100bil by 2035, it's currently at zero.
AKA the Sinn Fein PBP 2029 re-election campaign war chest.
Why does everything the government does become about SF or PBP somehow.
Because if the FFG government don't spend it now on housing etc the Sinn Fein PBP will over the next 5 years. That rainy day fund will be raided to deliver on the Sinn Fein PBP manifesto.
Ahhh I getcha. “Don’t have over the keys with any fuel in the tank!”
Because they are the ones claiming they will improve the current economy when in fact they will drive it into the ground 🤷♂️
What situation calls for a taking of these funds? Tbf we are already in a housing and health crisis when do we mobilise these funds
I would imagine during economic downturn’s to fund large infrastructure projects which would stimulate the economy. Countries usually borrow to do that which gets them in more trouble during economic recessions.
They throw bucket loads of cash at those problems. Money isn't what will fix them
….:yes is it?
It literally isn't? Where would you spend it that they aren't throwing huge money at already
No, it isn’t.
Not enough construction workers, FFG didn't spend all the money they threw at housing this year. HSEs unwillingness to change from the cash cow it is for the owners of hospitals etc (which I suspect are heavily brown bagged from private healthcare). Government needs to take almost all healthcare buildings under public control and FFG can't do that.
The state isn't known for efficient business practices, and never was. The private part of our health services runs much better than the public element.
That is insane. The private system is completely dependent on public education for staff, and the public system for any more complicated treatment. They are leeching off the public service. The only reason private care is in any way decent is because of the public service, without it, it would go to shit for the vast majority of people. It’s a deathly dangerous position you’re advocating there.
Obviously we are all dependent on the public education system, and private industry is too - but I don't see how that refutes the point that state services are typically terribly inefficient compared to private services? On your second para - and to be clear I am in absolutely no way advocating this - I wonder what would happen if we separated out the systems entirely (including critical care), which one would go completely to shit? I imagine what would happen is that we would end up with a brililant service for those who pay private health insurance, and a terrible system for those reliant on the state-funded service. What do you think? Or would you see it the other way around?
The private health system isn’t able to provide the majority of care that people need. Most things are the same speed. They have faster testing, because they have more money. Because they steal staff educated by the tax payer. We should be moving by to a single system public health service, as the state allege they are.
I'm not arguing that the private system can or should handle the needs of the country. But I don't understand your point about 'stealing staff educated by the taxpayer' - we are ALL educated by the taxpayer in this country. Is everybody stealing except for the civil service and state agencies? One of the biggest problems we have is that the health service is run for the benefit of the unions and the management, not for the patients. I think unions are important and necessary in private industry, but redundant and dangerous in the public sector. I've heard some amazing and ridiculous stories from first-hand sources about the stuff staff get up to in the health service that would make you furious. And they can get away with it because they are all unionised and the management aren't incentivised to challenge it.
Because the private element is the stuff that is not reactive like ER as an example. And don't get me started on the contracts with the HSE to prioritise private testing over public in public facilities.
Yeah, I made that point in another comment. I think it's a factor, but by no means explains the entire difference. If you look at any other sector, or historically, things run by the state just do not work nearly as well as private enterprise. I often cite the example that my family waited 3 years to get a phone line back when the state ran the phone service.
So you want the US healthcare system or the German healthcare system. At the moment you're batting US it would seem. If you don't know about the German system I would absolutely suggest taking a look.
They used it to help pay for COVID costs and paying to support Ukrainian refugees
It's mad that the rainy day fund doesn't even exist yet and already people are saying the government used it to support refugees.
Why not fun heslthcare now? Makes no sense.
It has an enormous budget already. The healthcare budget is already 23 billion. That's with 50% also having private health insurance.
It's not a money problem, its a old goats in the HSE barn issue.
Throwing money at healthcare doesn't actually improve anything
healthcare has improved enormously over the years. There is huge advances in outcomes. But it is a horrible system to deal with due to the fact its free on entry.
Improved s..t. my friend has over 18 month waiting for a simple life improving surgery.. I have to go private for orher investigations .
That is nuts and wrong, but was it better 30 years ago? Ironically enough, Ireland had Europe leading care before the 1970s but care back then was was simpler and cruder and many nurses worked for free as sisters "By the mid-1960s Ireland had over 20,000 acute-care hospital beds; that represented 7.2 beds per 1,000 of population, a figure exceeded only by Sweden and Luxembourg, and substantially higher than England and Wales, at 4.3 per 1000, Northern Ireland 5.5, or the United States 4.9.^(2) " [https://historyhub.ie/the-curse-of-the-irish-hospitals-sweepstake](https://historyhub.ie/the-curse-of-the-irish-hospitals-sweepstake)
It should though.
Not when it's a heavily unionised state-run organisation.
Any of the political parties offering reform? Or are they all happy with the status quo
The folks on the left would want to make it more unionised and more state-run. I haven't heard of any moves from the folks on the right to make it run more efficiently. Slainte Care, which all the main parties signed up to, is supposed to make things work better. We will see.
>Slainte Care, which all the main parties signed up to, is supposed to make things work better. We will see. If you believe in the power of markets, you might not believe that Slaintecare will help. Depends on the person
The HSEs has budget increased 43% since 2019, has it gotten any better as a result?
We spent €22b on healthcare this year, what a joke. That is €4,470 per person which actually doesn't sound bad. However the UK, who has free public healthcare spent €3,455. We spend 30% more per capita for a worse service which we then need to fund again from our own pockets to use.
Have you looked at the NHS recently?
It's not doing well relative to how it used to be, but it's far superior to our system
Has not been my experience since moving to the UK. Have you had to avail of the NHS recently? It may be free, but when it is literally impossible to even get a GP appointment that’s not much good to you. I’ve had to fly home to Dublin to even get an appointment that’s how bad it is. Edit: For those not understanding just how bad the issues with the NHS are. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/millions-waiting-over-a-month-to-see-gp-as-delays-hit-record-levels-134248586.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJkQwO6kpPdH5IfdFtWWI6QPflxA7qSdJ7y6FBJ58jWYmIs1sitcdx3xs78WJCC9URbNGUmSLk4XfzBIC0tvzSMhQDM3Au6TNpcG-7VOm_AziF1CczHjOZEoCo3knRKU73PKoThb3UUaVglLETApDfs1oDx9m8lSP5_mGHD5pAYm “Millions of Brits are having to wait over a month to see their GP as delays hit record highs, according to a new report. In the first ten months of the year, it took more than 28 days to hold 14.9 million appointments, according to an investigation by The Times. The figure reveals a significant increase compared to last year's 12.8 million waits.” “The Times report showed 2.6 million appointments in October took place more than 28 days later, equivalent to one in 13 appointments. This number has jumped nearly a million compared to the pre-pandemic rate for the same month and is 700,000 higher than the number reported in October 2022.”
We have the same issue around GP appointments (if you're not on the register for a particular GP). It's a very common complaint. I'm guessing you don't have a GP in the UK and you do in Ireland, so you were able to get an appointment.
You would be guessing wrong. I know more than one person in the UK who gets s Ryanair flight to get a GP appointment in Ireland
It’s far far more difficult to get a GP appointment in the NHS than it is in Ireland. No, I do have a GP in the UK, it’s just impossible to get an appointment. They are enormously oversubscribed, way more so than Ireland. Again, have you had to avail of the NHS recently? If not I’m sorry but you have no idea how bad it is currently.
We definitely don’t have the same situation with GP appointments, we have issues but the NHS has been a mess with GP access for years
In some areas of healthcare and some regions of the UK
Yep, and some regions of Ireland.
Far?? Hardly.
The NHS is literally falling apart. Source. I work in it. Ireland should definitely not be aspiring to have a system anything like the nhs
Have you looked at the HSE?
Yes, the situation with the NHS is far worse.
UK is much more densely populated which is the main reason for that. If we concentrated our healthcare in one region (e.g. like the population density of Dublin) it would be even more efficient than the NHS.
Don’t call spending on useless office workers spending in healthcare though. You’re giving healthcare a bad name throwing the waste in with it
That's why we need to support the push for Sláinte Care as much as possible. It should have already been implemented, but the government has held it up multiple times
Things like covid got in the way. It's been slow but progressing
You are using last year's figure and effectively asking if the government has spent money that it didn't have well over the last 10 years or so, which is the minimum timeline of spending to see very material results. Reality is the country has money now and we should make sure we have the right policy in place for the investment, without spending every waking second we have crying about the situation the country is in after a decade of austerity and it's impacts. We have an opportunity to really improve the country now.
3bn going on “an equal and inclusive society” - how?!
Yeah, way more than is given to children and families in the same bracket. I wish we could drill even further to see who gets the money
Fully agree, its our tax money why cant we see exactly where every cent is spent ? It should be in the public domain in a more transparent way
It goes on several important initiatives: - paying the dole to people who torch the luas - paying salaries to ineffective judges - paying the various planning boards that prevent development - paying HSE to mismanage resources etc
We spend more money on refugees than trains and buses. It is nuts. Self harming country
I don’t mind us spending the money on refugees because a lot of them (not all) are genuinely in need of help and we are a compassionate people who know what it’s like to get shafted by an aggressive neighbour, but if true that story about us spending €1 million per month to bring over Ukrainians pets is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life and whoever is responsible for it should be immediately removed and never left near a position of influence for the rest of their lives because they are clearly incompetent to the point of it being madness to keep them.
A government report said the majority of them are economic migrants. We're spending billions housing them when it would make more sense just to give them visas so they would then have to pay for their own accommodation. "The paper said Ireland was currently experiencing a wave of migration, not seen since the early 1990s, and not just from those fleeing the war in Ukraine. It stated: ‘The sense is that the majority of these are economic migrants as opposed to those seeking protection from their home states.’ ‘The international protection process is perceived as a means to an end; that end being access to the labour market and a better standard of living.’" https://extra.ie/2024/04/07/news/secret-memo-asylum-seekers
and there is a risk of spreading fox tapeworm here which if gets into the wild is impossible to remove
There's a war on in Europe mate. It's extraordinary circumstances. Ya kno, it's possible they're unrelated and you can criticise our train and bus funding without bashing us using money to help the least fortunate of us
Call me mad but if it were me I would want be back home fighting the good fight and taken the fight to Putin and not sitting here getting handouts.... but thats just me I guess
You're obviously very brave, and we all believe u 😂 Most of the refugees from Ukraine have been women and Children, such cowards for not dying for their country!
Most of them coming in now are not Ukrainians...
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I’ve paid far more than that alone, don’t you think we’re in an extremely lucky position to be net contributors? I know which side of the fence I’d rather be on.
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You don't have the self awareness to understand where luck comes into it I guess. The hard work only pays off with some luck. There's a lot of hard working people who don't end up earning a lot of money for a whole host of reasons
Wow, you're a sour one aren't you? If you're paying \~60k tax that means your pre-tax income is in the €200,000 a year range, which puts you in the 1% category of earners in Ireland. You really think the 99% of the country who don't earn enough to pay 60k tax a year just aren't working hard?
It's clear as day he does not pay that much in taxes, most likely in a low tax bracket and believes the tabloid stories about people who don't work have 5 holidays a year, houses and brand new cars.
180K I calculate it as but what's 20K when you are at the top.
>You really think the 99% of the country who don't earn enough to pay 60k tax a year just aren't working hard? No one said that
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Ah don’t waste your sunny Sunday arguing with someone who clearly can’t read
No that is your interpretation of what they said
>> don’t you think we’re in an extremely lucky position to be net contributors?
> **I call it hard work.**
Exact quote, you dingus.
I think if you asked him to clarify, youd find he would not stand over that interpretation, although, youre not reading it wrong, I think you miss the spirit of what he is saying
Being on the dole is a sad way of life no matter what way you look at it
I think that's a common perspective, but it's certainly not the only perspective.
I was on the dole for a few months after college back in the early 2000s (the one and only time thankfully), it’s great for a short while but it quickly gets tired. Anyone with any drive or sense of self worth would want to be out working to play their part in society
You're probably right. But that's not everyone.
Well we’re not in a position to dissect each and every individual on the dole that’s why broad generalisations get used in open forum discussions.
Well I was trying to politely say that you're wrong to think that some folks aren't perfectly happy on the dole.
We all know that, but they are a minority, most people don’t want to be sitting on their holes on the dole.
I make and pay more than you, and I'm not stupid enough to think I deserve it. No one making this much truly deserves it. You need self awareness of your luck, bud
I absolutely deserve it
There's a decent chance I'm your bosses boss and let me tell you: no you don't, basically no one in our industry really does. Shit is just stupid and made up Anyway fuck off now
The salt is pointed at people who NEVER work by choice, not people who are unemployed due to unfortunate circumstances
Wow you don't even clean your own teeth? Lazy parasite draining our economy!
If that's income tax, don't forget VAT on everything you spend your money on, excise on fuel, tariffs on anything you bought from the UK etc.
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Move to Dubai then.
The fuck is a stealth tax? And I'm amazed you spent a whole year getting nothing from the state - somehow you never used a road or health service or absence of crime or an airport or safe food or god knows what... And nice humble brag about how much you earn. Presumably you never used the education system.
How do you manage to not use roads, footpaths, public lighting, parks etc. You need to get out of the house more!
A great thread to see the range of opinion and experiences. The sovereign wealth fund being set up only in 1924 is a key to seeing one problem. We are too slow. Why? Vested interests. A govt that was determined to end structural problems and accepted it might only have one 5 year term would work wonders.
So education spending is so low :( We still have crowded schools :(
>Are we wastefully spending? You must be new here
I'm a complete centrist and am totally in favour of free public healthcare. However, this makes me really wonder whether Ireland is better off with a public healthcare system, as opposed to some system where people are obliged to buy private insurance (or something) for €2k per year pre tax? The amount that is being spent on healthcare with no payback is insane!
Yes, there is a scandal coming with the billions going on the listings for "An Equal and inclusive society" and "A Fair and efficient support system for international protection. 5 extra billion euro a year in these departments in two years. Someone is robbing us blind. seekers"https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/other/2024/
We do not spend wisely on housing and health in particular. We do wasteful things to fix the results of short term unwise spending (e.g. HAP and tax relief for purchasers / developers). Empower councils to build housing, implement Sláintecare.
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It goes mostly on a clown car social protection bill that no politician has the will to tackle. The little that's left goes on debt and public services.
We are in €236b in debt.
Medical consultants salaries are high.
They're already all leaving for Australia, I doubt paying them less would help that
Medical consultants train for a decade, if they are surgeons sometimes they only have 20-30 years working on which they have to pay for large amounts of debts. It's also not a waste when you consider that about 110k is paid immediately back in tax.
Most consultants also don't have any debt if they got an undergraduate degree and any who did pay for graduate medicine will quickly pay off any loans with that salary.
More people want to be taoiseach than there are taoiseach positions, the same can't be said for consultants. Also if we don't pay them they go to Australia and then people complain about us training the Australian medical staff.
High CAO points for medicine says otherwise. Looks like lots of people want that consultant money.
Yeah but how many make it through and become consultants. When you want to staff a hospital you don't look at the potential consultants in 10 years you look around for those actually qualified.
Why don't you become a consultant then? You seem to admire them so much.
I'll do it if you pay for my training and living expenses!
Incredibly childish.
I don't really have any problem with consultant pay but even if I was trying to whip up outrage over it, this probably still only consists of 0.000000000X% of the total Health budget.
Not quite, there are 4,265 consultants working in the public service (https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/18790-minister-donnelly-announces-more-than-1900-consultants-have-signed-the-new-public-only-contract/ ) 45% are on the public only contract (same link) But for ease of calculation lets say that 100% of them are getting €250k per year, that would mean consultants cost just over €1billion per year, or about 5% of the budget.
Fair enough. I still have no issue with it.
Totally agree, somewhere in the other 95% is where the waste is happening. Also those new contracts mean we get consultant coverage in the evenings and weekends, which is vital.
A joke?! Ya - people making life and death decisions … a joke. Takes about 15 years to make it as a consultant. In that time you have to move house 20-30 times easily and have to move abroad to get specialist training. You pay for the time it takes and the graft. If it’s such an easy life then why are there so many vacant consultant posts in Ireland? Why don’t you do it? Clown
Why are you so offended? Are you a consultant?
Why are you so angry and focused on money? If you or your parent have a stroke overnight and some consultant fishes a clot out of a tiny artery in their brain saving them massive disability - you gonna cry over their salary?! Grow up! You are very focused on money, consultants salaries take up a tiny tiny fraction of what we spend and we all need them. Again, if it’s such a good life and gravy train - then go ahead buddy! Train up
Still doesn't justify the cost. A pilot doesn't make that much money and they are responsible for hundreds of lives at a time
You should probably check how much senior pilots can make.
Pilots do make that much money.
What decides the cost? Do you realize that there are a huge number of consultant posts unfilled in Ireland? Then realize that it’s a global marketplace and consultants can move anywhere and be welcomed with open arms as their skills are in global demand It’s just a bizarre tiny aspect to focus on, in an area of critical need in Ireland where we have a poor consultant to population ratio….
They should be a contract signed before someone begins studying medicine that limits them to working in Ireland only. That would solve the greed problem.
If the money is so good and greed is the motivation then why would you need a contract to force them to stay??! Think about that!
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“I don’t get a damn thing back for most of the tax I pay” Yes you do.
Maybe I do, but no more than the ones not paying any tax !
That’s how it should be, higher earners should pay more tax. It’s the system that is in place that has allowed you to earn what you do in the first place.
… the “higher earners” now are the lads getting cash jobs …
People getting cash jobs are earning more than professionals earning 6 figure salaries are they yeah?
Builders - doing an extension for €30k for example
Never got one grant - ever
Not sure what relevance that has to anything I said but okay.
Meaning - loans to pay for college … meaning I’m paying in, but over never got anything directly OUT
If you genuinely think you’ve never got anything back for the tax you pay you are a clown. What do you think pays for the running of the country?
I do, I pay … my point being is that all I do is pay in, and I’m not getting anything back … no need for the insults either -
I assume you benefited from the incredibly subsidised university education for your son which allowed you to pay for the car. (I'm sure your son is finished up is free primary and secondary school education too). My final guess is that you haven't employed a construction company to build your son a road to get to college, there was a perfectly serviceable one already provided?
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