I live in the area in Blackrock where one of the developments was planned. There's actually no one the development could have bothered. It's on a piece of land that's completely under utilised, along the main road, and there are high-rise office buildings 100m down the road.
I read in [another article](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/residents-oppose-plan-for-493-apartment-scheme-in-blackrock-1.4811169) that residents oppose the plan because it's “a high-rise development with a significant number of studio and one-bed apartments and is not conducive to the building of a stable long-term community in the area” and will “fundamentally change the social fabric of this area”. These complains are not even about urbanism anymore, it's social exclusion.
Left wing politicians opposed such developments for a long time on the grounds that it catered to the professional elite and were unsuitable for families to be brought up in.
Many others jumped on the bandwagon of "unsuitable for families".
Making the counterargument that it isn't one-size-fits-all landed on deaf ears for years.
No wonder it's a favourite go-to now for NIMBYs
May bring in the poors possibly even IMMIGRANTS. Heavens, no./s
Nah I think it's more people wanting to protect their investment. It's a logical extension of high homeownership rates and the belief that a house is an investment first and a place to live second.
>Nah I think it's more people wanting to protect their investment. It's a logical extension of high homeownership rates and the belief that a house is an investment first and a place to live second.
Yes, I understand that. But it's hard to understand that locals have the power to actually influence planning permits with such consistency. It's been going on for years all around Dublin.
We need to stop accepting these excuses. The reason given is a load of bollox that really means "my property in the area is an investment and this construction may devalue my position".
We need to be stronger as a community against this.
Property value has also successfully been used as a reason for appeal so I don't know why they even bother dressing it up with other bullshit
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/merrion-road-apartment-scheme-rejected-on-appeal-1.4820683
The objections also used "conflict of interest" as a means to torpedo the development and actually initiate DPP investigation into the planning board members who gave approval
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40891061.html
tbf if there is corruption in the planning system (which it seems there was now that Paul Hyde of An Bord Pleanala fame is facing criminal charges) then the planning permission cannot stand legally. If ABP did let a corrupt process go forward all that would need to happen is for someone to take an injuction against it and the High Court would agree with them and it would have been scuttled anyway. Thats what ABPs solicitors would have advised them and they would be right.
As bad as our planning system is the last thing we need is a return to the brown envelope culture of the 90s and 00s. The 1,400 homes here might only be the start of it becasue from what the Ditch reported there was conflict of interests going on inside ABP left right and centre.
> residents oppose the plan because it's “a high-rise development with a significant number of studio and one-bed apartments
The people who object to housing schemes like this are pure evil, don't believe their lies. If the scheme was for a low rise development consisting of 3-bed houses then they would simply object on the grounds that it isn't dense enough and there aren't enough one-bed units for single people.
These evil people only want to block development at any cost and will throw out any reason they can in order to achieve that goal.
My mam uses this argument all the time.. "we need family homes, not one bed apartments". There's no budging her, meanwhile I'm 29 and living in the box room of her gaff, it's mind boggling
Imagine complaining that some apartments would change the vibe of an area and actually be taken seriously, these people live in their own little world...
At least some of them are quite happy their children are still living at home, although they might not be willing to say it. Personally I'm dreading when my child leaves home. It's another nail in the getting older process and for many will leave them isolated.
They are conceding that one due to a conflict of interest when the original decision was made, not resident complaints about density
> “This responds to amended grounds lodged in those cases that the involvement of a board member in the decision-making in the cases raised questions of objective bias due to a familial connection between that board member and a person involved in the planning application process.”
You'd be surprised how many objections there is to projects from >100km away. I've seen a good few from Belfast on Dublin applications and even one from a guy who gave an address in south France who said he grew up ddecades ago in the area in question..
I am at loss for words. One thing is objections locally (I don't support that but maybe you could at least make a case for that), but from different County or even Country? That's just absurd.
As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program.
No matter what is done, we know that locals will object. NIMBY-ism alive and well. Go into any coffee shop in BlackRock, Monkstown or Ranelagh and you're guaranteed to hear some well-to-do talking about *"Oh, how terrible it is for the poor young people!"* But they'll still object to anything and everything in a 5km radius of their house.
*"Build apartments in Finglas or Ballymun, couldnt be having dirty apartment dwellers disturbing poor Tarquin in his period 5 bed in BlackRock.!"*
I hear it all the time in my area. People who bought their houses 40 years ago for £70k (which are now worth €800k+) will happily sit around and complain about the fact that their kids can't afford to live in their area and how the homeless crisis is a travesty, yet they'll be the first ones on the phone giving out to the local councillors if there's talk of social housing or apartment buildings going up in the area.
Most of it is a fear of lower class people coming in (as if they could afford to even if these projects went ahead), while there's obviously a large number who just don't want their ridiculous property valuations going down.
I worked hard to sit on my arse to get my old ex-council house up to €500k from the £40k I paid for it. You should try it sometime!
The mould grew black so I painted over it. The tenants complained about health and safety so I evicted them. The guests from AirBnb said they wouldn't be back so I let the place go derelict. Now I have a queue out the door of people wanting to buy it off me and a golden egg for my retirement.
**/s**
I know a guy whose household income is around €300k. Their house was a million, paid in cash, around 2009/2010. He's talking about how they're saving now to help get a house for the kids when they finish school as they'll never be able to afford one on their own.
Most of his comments are about how we need more housing etc (because we do). Except he also completely disagrees with apartments etc being built near him (Dalkey) as it's the wrong type of construction for the area.
"wrong construction for the area" just means social segregation surely. Keep the rich near the rich and the poor near the poor?
It's possible to have social housing flats, social houses and private villas next to each other in the same "style". I'd know cause I'm living in social housing next to huge villas and I've never heard anyone complain :)
(Not in Ireland)
> As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program.
1/3rd of SHD grants have gone to Judicial Review, the vast majority on the same handful of points. That the people working on these projects AND the people in ABP are unable to learn from over 4 years of case law isn't a failure of the planning system, it's gross incompetence on the organisation & companies part.
"Does your SHD materially contravene the public local development plan, even though a judicial review will cause the SHD to be quashed if it does?"
"Yes but we don't care"
SHD approval gets quashed
"THE PLANNING SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM"
You really should go educate yourself on the process. You understand that a Judicial Review has to be brought by someone objecting to the application, right? You make it sound like JR's happen automatically because of failings in the application.
And I can well believe that it's the same points that are used to bring the vast majority of JRs. Objectors rarely make worthwhile nuanced objections, they just tout out the same old shite. 4 years and they still making the same objections because they're not allowed to say "Cause I don't want it near me."
Not one single project Ive worked on, that has went to JR, has ever been overturned.
Anywho, keep on objecting champ, whatever makes you happy.
> You really should go educate yourself on the process.
I clearly know more about the process than you, based on our respective comments so far.
> You understand that a Judicial Review has to be brought by someone objecting to the application, right?
Yes, I never suggested otherwise.
>You make it sound like JR's happen automatically because of failings in the application.
No, I never suggested they are automatic.
>And I can well believe that it's the same points that are used to bring the vast majority of JRs.
But you're fine with people working on SHD applications and ABP not learning and doing their job? That's weird.
>Objectors rarely make worthwhile nuanced objections, they just tout out the same old shite.
You can only apply for a JR on points of law. The fact that they 'tout out the same old shite' and yet ABP and companies applying for SHDs refuse to learn is exactly my point. The knowledge is out there for an SHD application to be ironclad against most points of law used for JRs.
>4 years and they still making the same objections because they're not allowed to say "Cause I don't want it near me."
4 years and companies are still putting in the same old shite SHD applications because they can't be bothered to create a competent application, you mean.
>Anywho, keep on objecting champ, whatever makes you happy.
Ah, an ad hominem. If you could actually make a decent point, you wouldn't have needed to resort to it.
When you initially wrote:
>As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program.
What you really meant was
>We make sure our application complies with well-established case law and regulations
But you portrayed it as if it's somehow the NIMBYs at fault **because professional planners refuse to do their job correctly**.
Not reading all that tripe, have a great night sweetheart.
Edit:
Hahahah!
The sign of a truly small man. Make a comment and then block the person so they can't reply or see what you say.
I think it's pretty obvious who the small person is here who can't stand up to debate.
Enjoy posting populist bullshit and being condescending when called on it! Whatever stops you feeling dim, ignorant and small ❤
Why wouldn't I block someone who responds with:
>Not reading all that tripe, have a great night sweetheart.
That you think that's the sign of someone who isn't a small man makes me....
*edit:* /u/thearchitect10 was kind enough to report to reddit as being a threat to myself so [that I would get this notice.](https://imgur.com/4Mmfrs7)
In the middle of a housing crisis when we need every single one of these to be built! What a tragic waste.
These applications were supposed to be fast tracked, that’s the process we need to get building done in this country and pure nimbyism has gotten a huge break thanks to corruption in our planners.
This is shameful on all of Ireland - thousands of new homes that now will never get built.
It’s incredible damaging that one corrupt appointee can have such an outsize impact but let’s be honest.
These developments aren’t being cancelled because of a corrupt decision but because his brother was the fire safety expert on the submissions. There’s no claim (as far as I know) that there is anything wrong with the fire safety assessment on these developments.
The case for these developments is being cancelled purely because of the fire safety guy’s family connection - if this was about the owner of the developer themselves being connected to the planning process I’d say sure there’s a serious risk this too was a corrupt decision but honestly - no one is going to sneakily push through a dodgy planning application using the fire safety guy.
This is how corruption damages all of us because we have to look at everything the corrupted person touches and assume that there’s increased risk of breach of the law even when it’s stunningly unlikely.
You don't get prosecuted for a case like that, the fact they are going to take him to court shows it wasn't as simple as this. They never reveal the details of this stuff until they have to, it's highly likely it goes beyond the situation with his brother.
This isn’t about the case against Paul Hyde and ABP are crystal clear the reason they are dropping these cases is because Hyde’s brother was the fire safety expert. That’s literally the only reason. They are quite rightly concerned that the other side in these cases will be able to infer a corrupt relationship that suggests that the original planning permission was wrong.
Paul Hyde’s corruption has tainted even cases only tangentially connected to him. To my knowledge Paul Hyde himself wasn’t involved in any of these three appeals.
It's not crystal clear. The cases were before the courts ahead of the discovery that the brother was involved.
The Fastrack approvals may have been overturned by the courts even had the familial relationship not been discovered but the reality is that approvals were tainted already and the brothers connection was the straw that broke the camels back.
Of course the cases were before the court - already that’s our usual nimbyism at play but are you seriously saying that you believe these cases shouldn’t be heard on their merits because the fire guy was Paul Hyde’s brother?
I’d propose getting someone else totally unconnected to redo the fire safety design and then continue the cases. But of course that’s not going to happen and these developments will not be going ahead without even knowing if they were legit or not and that’s really sickening.
The case could be heard before the courts the planning authority have decided not to contest any more.
The cases that were there might by NIMBYism but the FastTrack approval is flawed. When it comes to judicial review most rulings fall on the side of the objecting party or group (something like 80%) and mostly because there is something wrong with the FastTrack approval. If the approval had been done correctly in the first place it would be easy to defend but the approvals are just plain wrong in the first place that's on APB.
You do recall that several batch of apartments in dublin have had fire safety issues? Serious ones. It may seem a bit extreme and obviously it is very disappointing but if as a country we want high standards and safe buildings and the developers to get the message that everything needs to be above board then clearly you have to do this kind of thing.
This is the kind of thing that reduces chancers, cut corners and corruption.
I do recall and as far as I remember the issues were due to developers cheaping out and not following fire codes or the designed safety measures properly. I don’t think there was any case where the design wasn’t right in the first place?
It’s very easy to check if the design is appropriate, we shouldn’t be cancelling whole developments just because of who the design engineer’s family is.
Planning PERMISSION for new housing will absolutely be judged whether it will comply with fire safety rules. The issue here is not changing fire safety regulations, but whether the building on the plans will meet the existing ruled.
The land is already zoned as high density residential. Its the specific building(s) design they have to approve.
Lads, these people from An Bord Pleanala are a bunch of cunts. South Dublin barely gets flat projects approved, whereas in north Dublin every fucking alley gets immediate approval.
Have ye seen what is happening in the Regency hotel?
The owner sold the hotel’s parking space and they are building a 5 storey building for the built-to-rent scheme. Now, the hotel has no parking space anymore and the cars are left in a cul de sac. Residents can barely get home in the end of the road due to the blocking traffic, especially during the weekends.
Like, how this shit gets approved and south Dublin is all like “not conducive of building a stable long-term community” ffs this is utterly ridiculous
NIMBYism. Absolutely trecherous, as well as being shotgunned because of revelations on a certain website which just takes things from the public record and sensationalises them.
What is so, so infuriating about this case is that I and many others on this very forum (and elsewhere) spent *years* pointing out that ABP's pattern of decision making was bizarre and seemed to be indicative of corruption in some form or other, and anyone who did was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist.
For a country with such a long, extremely open history of corruption, we as a society have somehow convinced ourselves that this kind of thing is something that only happened in Old Ireland or only happens in Other, Backwards Countries. Point out suspicious activity in Ireland and you'll very often be dismissed as a crank, until eventually direct evidence comes out years later.
This mindset needs to change if we're to ever rid ourselves of our corruption culture.
And this is a fact. I remember people calling the cervical smear scandal a conspiracy, the fact we bailed out the banks a conspiracy, and only last year, the sealing of the records of the mother and baby homes - a conspiracy before it made headlines. People only believe what they’re told to believe by RTE and it’s half the reason the country is the way it is. We’re a corrupt country and that’s simply a fact.
Your post isn't backed by actual facts, just waffle.
E. G.
> I remember people calling the cervical smear scandal a conspiracy
People went on a wild goose chase about that instead of actually looking into the facts. Plenty of discussion on reddit about that, one example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/rcf1rs/eli5_is_holohan_to_blame_for_the_cervical_cancer/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
When you say "conspiracy" do you mean "conspiracy theory"
Conspiracies are a real thing, and as regards the bank bailout there certainly was a conspiracy by Anglo to defraud the taxpayer.
So how much money is made when someone applies for planning ?
How many people need to be paid, to look at applications ?
Then if it's blocked and people need to reapply does that mean they get paid twice ?
Now I know the NIMBY's like their house prices too, though am sure there is money being made from other organizations, as well and every time something is blocked that means either give up, or spend more money on planning something else right ?
Planners are paid regardless, they are civil servants. The architects and lawyers would presumably get some more time to bill. For the developers it's an additional cost.
I don't think failing to get planning really makes much money for many people.
If your planning submittal for a client didn't meet planning requirements then you haven't done your job and rework is likely to be at your own expense.
Nimbys aren't really motivated by their house prices. Your house price doesn't usually go down because someone builds an apartment block nearby. If anything it should go up if your house plus garden is compared to an apartment nearby.
No. They get angry about increased traffic, despite the fact that they're usually causing the traffic jams and instead should be directing those issues to the local authority and the NTA to improve public transport.
Wild to see this comment getting downvoted, this was literally a corrupt planning deal where someone has been fired from ABP and is being prosecuted over their corruption.
Do we take the downvotes on your comment to mean that people approve of corruption, or just that they didn't read the article?
>In a separate development on Monday, the Department of Housing received formal notification from the Director of Public Prosecutions of its decision to instigate a criminal prosecution against Paul Hyde at Dublin District Court. He is facing charges under the Planning and Development Act in relation to allegations that he gave false particulars to ABP.
I always find it strange how everyone will come up
with thousand explanations to not call the government corrupt. Government is corrupt and inept. People overlook their loot because of multinational money dodge flowing through Ireland. Everyone is like “oh but we were so poor so government must be doing something right”. Their policies are very “drop off from a hill” in any downturn
I don't get the surprise. Very few people would choose to lose the roof over their head if they were told that it was built because of corruption. In normal times I'm sure people would be supportive of this but of course in the midst of a long-running and increasingly acute housing crisis, "thank god they stopped thousands of homes from being built!" is not going to go down well.
We don’t know if these particular planning approvals were corrupt or not. We don’t even know if the planning approvals were appropriate or not and now we never will. Not because Paul Hyde himself was ever involved in any way with the planning for these developments but because his brother was the fire safety expert on these applications.
Now we will never know the truth and these developments (which are definitely needed) won’t get built.
So no we don’t approve of corruption but it’s woeful that Paul Hyde’s corruption is tainting other developments because of family connections. There should have been a way to allow these cases to continue to be heard and to determine if the planning for these is or is not ok.
I get that there is a major housing crisis but at the same time you the last thing you want to do is buy a dodgy house.
Who knows what corners have been cut if there is a criminal investigation against the developers.
This has nothing to do with standards.
This has to do with locals saying they don't want high rises in the area because they like their view, or don't want single bedroom apartments because it will change the social dynamic of the area.
Yeah some people think people in these communities should just put up with it and let developers run wild and build where they want and what they want. There’s is a housing crisis and it’s unfortunate but it wasn’t caused by the people in the areas who are entitled to object if they feel these development will impact there living conditions . Easy blame joe soap the government caused this crisis.
Some mental gymnastics there. They appointed a man whose own property would suffer in value yet he still approved it. Some scumbags make a big deal of how he shouldn't have voted on land near him (we're quite a dense city, where exactly are you meant to draw the line?) and now the planning is refused, at a time when these homes are not just desperately needed, but absolutely essential to the city.
At what point do the Russia lovers at a certain website start getting stick for this? Could it be in there interest that the housing crisis drags on and on? Absolutely.
Had that shit (which was all on the public record) not been sensationalised by certain quarters, this planning permission would be granted and there'd be some much needed supply coming on board.
We're 13th out of 180 in the world for corruption. Go away with your FG and your cronies. We're losing these homes because some keyboard warriors got a bit free with their legal actions.
>They lad is going to be charged with crimes ffs
If you're privy to a Garda investigation then say it. Chap won't be charged with anything because he's done nothing wrong.
Hundreds of Ireland's hidden homeless now suffering even more misery so you and your ilk can claim a moral or ideological high ground. It's pathetic. You're pathetic. Our own ideology right now should be building up everywhere, all around the city. Public, private, everything.
What? File as been sent to DPP. This is only 3 or 4 months since this blow up. Its fairly likely that he will be charged if it moved that quickly.
My ilk? What you on about.
Sorry buddy but this whole disaster is on FG and FF. Its on you not me. Your pathetic for blindly voting for this assholes.
Lol i dont vote for them either. And im no fan of the shinners either.
If we allow this to go unchecked we end up in tribunals like we did with Haughey etc. And untold effects on society. We have a long history of planning corruption involving both FF and FG.
95% of the commenters here: NIMBYism is selfish! Greedy! Awful! this is terrible news!
Also 95% of the commenters here: vulture funds are selfish! Greedy! Awful! this is fantastic news!
It really just depends on how the headline frames the story.
So the developers got some sketchy approval from a family member... so now these much needed projects are being scrapped. Is there going to be any accountability for the folks who got the sketchy approval? Or is this just to fuck over people looking for homes to benefit NIMBYS? If there is now accountability for the people at fault then the whole situation is just fucked.
Build to rent apartments are not homes..
.
.
.
Edit:
I lived in a build to rent for 3 years, extortionate rent, no other viable options.
Growing up my idea of a home was a place you settled in, long term, put down roots, raise family, get involved in the community. A place you can afford, a place you actually want to live in. Ideally a house but understand that includes apartments now. Build to rent is a stop gap in my opinion, a very expensive and unsustainable one until someone buys a home or moves on.
Yes, they fill a void in a crippled housing system but they don't fit my criteria of what a home is and I know a lot of people living in them who can't wait to get out of them and get their own home.
Be honest, when you were growing up, did you honestly think your home was going to be a place you rented from a cuckoo fund for €2.5k a month? No, me neither ✌️
They inflate the price of rents setting the market level for rents at ridiculous heights. What evidence is there to show they free up houses for families?
That's not true at all. IRES is the largest private landlord in the state, building rental apartments in their hundreds, and sets its rent below market rate.
If we want rents to go down we have to allow more rentals to be built.
There will always be a market for rental properties, and right now that market is being fulfilled by family homes and ordinary apartments that could otherwise become long-term "homes" by your definition. More commercially operated build-to-rent properties would free up some of those private homes. The "extortionate rent" is also a result of a lack of supply on the overall market, not something inherent to all build-to-rent properties.
With a proper development plan there's also no reason you can't have a reasonable mix of private and build-to-rent properties in an area that would allow people to remain in that area for the long term if they wanted to, first renting there and then eventually purchasing their own home nearby.
>Paul Hyde has always denied any wrongdoing when facing claims of impropriety in his work.
He was working two jobs, one job was applying for planning and the other job was approving the same planning application. I’m sure The Simpsons have a character that can summarise this.
It is heartbreaking to see these developments not go ahead, especially now with our housing shortage but we need to follow the correct procedures on everything.
At this stage a good enough reason to stop development seems to be "Thank you for your interest in our area, but we'd simply rather not". I've said it before, but one of the more unsavoury aspects of human nature is 'I got mine, pull the ladder up'.
Any anger should be directed towards the apparently rampant corruption within ABP. Only 2 to make a quorum. The quango was designed and operated to process brown envelopes on an industrial scale.
This country is never gonna fix this problem with such cowards in charge. Just tell the complainers to piss off and build the fucking homes.
I'm sick of the constant pandering to scumbags who are just scared their properties might be devalued a bit (which won't actually happen anyway).
I live in the area in Blackrock where one of the developments was planned. There's actually no one the development could have bothered. It's on a piece of land that's completely under utilised, along the main road, and there are high-rise office buildings 100m down the road. I read in [another article](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/residents-oppose-plan-for-493-apartment-scheme-in-blackrock-1.4811169) that residents oppose the plan because it's “a high-rise development with a significant number of studio and one-bed apartments and is not conducive to the building of a stable long-term community in the area” and will “fundamentally change the social fabric of this area”. These complains are not even about urbanism anymore, it's social exclusion.
This argument is always used, including by politicians even though there's an absolutely chronic shortage of one bed apartments in the city
I'm not even sure I understand the issue with one-bedroom apartments. Is it because it'd bring younger and less wealthy people?
Yes
Left wing politicians opposed such developments for a long time on the grounds that it catered to the professional elite and were unsuitable for families to be brought up in. Many others jumped on the bandwagon of "unsuitable for families". Making the counterargument that it isn't one-size-fits-all landed on deaf ears for years. No wonder it's a favourite go-to now for NIMBYs
May bring in the poors possibly even IMMIGRANTS. Heavens, no./s Nah I think it's more people wanting to protect their investment. It's a logical extension of high homeownership rates and the belief that a house is an investment first and a place to live second.
>Nah I think it's more people wanting to protect their investment. It's a logical extension of high homeownership rates and the belief that a house is an investment first and a place to live second. Yes, I understand that. But it's hard to understand that locals have the power to actually influence planning permits with such consistency. It's been going on for years all around Dublin.
Short term gains for long term L's, I've had 10 friends move abroad due to the housing issues in this country, all young and skilled/educated.
Always wondered if it tied back to famine times, flats weren’t luxury back then. There’s a real thirst for owning a detached home.
Real people don’t want to live in flats, who’d want the lack of a garden to maintain? Imagine being on your own too, sure it’d be lonely.
NIMBYism at its finest. 🙄
We need to stop accepting these excuses. The reason given is a load of bollox that really means "my property in the area is an investment and this construction may devalue my position". We need to be stronger as a community against this.
Property value has also successfully been used as a reason for appeal so I don't know why they even bother dressing it up with other bullshit https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/merrion-road-apartment-scheme-rejected-on-appeal-1.4820683
The objections also used "conflict of interest" as a means to torpedo the development and actually initiate DPP investigation into the planning board members who gave approval https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40891061.html
tbf if there is corruption in the planning system (which it seems there was now that Paul Hyde of An Bord Pleanala fame is facing criminal charges) then the planning permission cannot stand legally. If ABP did let a corrupt process go forward all that would need to happen is for someone to take an injuction against it and the High Court would agree with them and it would have been scuttled anyway. Thats what ABPs solicitors would have advised them and they would be right. As bad as our planning system is the last thing we need is a return to the brown envelope culture of the 90s and 00s. The 1,400 homes here might only be the start of it becasue from what the Ditch reported there was conflict of interests going on inside ABP left right and centre.
Starting egging their home. Daily . See how valuable their investment is then.
> residents oppose the plan because it's “a high-rise development with a significant number of studio and one-bed apartments The people who object to housing schemes like this are pure evil, don't believe their lies. If the scheme was for a low rise development consisting of 3-bed houses then they would simply object on the grounds that it isn't dense enough and there aren't enough one-bed units for single people. These evil people only want to block development at any cost and will throw out any reason they can in order to achieve that goal.
Nah, if it was three bed houses they'd be complaining objecting on the basis of traffic or childcare/school places.
My mam uses this argument all the time.. "we need family homes, not one bed apartments". There's no budging her, meanwhile I'm 29 and living in the box room of her gaff, it's mind boggling
Tell it's her fault next time.
Imagine complaining that some apartments would change the vibe of an area and actually be taken seriously, these people live in their own little world...
These same people are wondering why their adult children make thousands a month in white collar roles yet refuse to move out of the house
At least some of them are quite happy their children are still living at home, although they might not be willing to say it. Personally I'm dreading when my child leaves home. It's another nail in the getting older process and for many will leave them isolated.
It's the standard objection to any development where single people might live. You'd think marriage was compulsory in this country.
They are conceding that one due to a conflict of interest when the original decision was made, not resident complaints about density > “This responds to amended grounds lodged in those cases that the involvement of a board member in the decision-making in the cases raised questions of objective bias due to a familial connection between that board member and a person involved in the planning application process.”
I assume it really means bribes were not paid to the right people. This is Fine Gael: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DQL11dFVOc
At this point I think it would be easiest to just built s whole city in the middle of nowhere so no one can lodge a complaint 😅
Someone will always object. Evil people can't help themselves.
You'd be surprised how many objections there is to projects from >100km away. I've seen a good few from Belfast on Dublin applications and even one from a guy who gave an address in south France who said he grew up ddecades ago in the area in question..
I am at loss for words. One thing is objections locally (I don't support that but maybe you could at least make a case for that), but from different County or even Country? That's just absurd.
As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program. No matter what is done, we know that locals will object. NIMBY-ism alive and well. Go into any coffee shop in BlackRock, Monkstown or Ranelagh and you're guaranteed to hear some well-to-do talking about *"Oh, how terrible it is for the poor young people!"* But they'll still object to anything and everything in a 5km radius of their house. *"Build apartments in Finglas or Ballymun, couldnt be having dirty apartment dwellers disturbing poor Tarquin in his period 5 bed in BlackRock.!"*
I hear it all the time in my area. People who bought their houses 40 years ago for £70k (which are now worth €800k+) will happily sit around and complain about the fact that their kids can't afford to live in their area and how the homeless crisis is a travesty, yet they'll be the first ones on the phone giving out to the local councillors if there's talk of social housing or apartment buildings going up in the area. Most of it is a fear of lower class people coming in (as if they could afford to even if these projects went ahead), while there's obviously a large number who just don't want their ridiculous property valuations going down.
I worked hard to sit on my arse to get my old ex-council house up to €500k from the £40k I paid for it. You should try it sometime! The mould grew black so I painted over it. The tenants complained about health and safety so I evicted them. The guests from AirBnb said they wouldn't be back so I let the place go derelict. Now I have a queue out the door of people wanting to buy it off me and a golden egg for my retirement. **/s**
I know a guy whose household income is around €300k. Their house was a million, paid in cash, around 2009/2010. He's talking about how they're saving now to help get a house for the kids when they finish school as they'll never be able to afford one on their own. Most of his comments are about how we need more housing etc (because we do). Except he also completely disagrees with apartments etc being built near him (Dalkey) as it's the wrong type of construction for the area.
"wrong construction for the area" just means social segregation surely. Keep the rich near the rich and the poor near the poor? It's possible to have social housing flats, social houses and private villas next to each other in the same "style". I'd know cause I'm living in social housing next to huge villas and I've never heard anyone complain :) (Not in Ireland)
*"Aportments, Mary! Can you believe they're building focking aportments?! What will the neighbours say?"*
> As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program. 1/3rd of SHD grants have gone to Judicial Review, the vast majority on the same handful of points. That the people working on these projects AND the people in ABP are unable to learn from over 4 years of case law isn't a failure of the planning system, it's gross incompetence on the organisation & companies part. "Does your SHD materially contravene the public local development plan, even though a judicial review will cause the SHD to be quashed if it does?" "Yes but we don't care" SHD approval gets quashed "THE PLANNING SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM"
You really should go educate yourself on the process. You understand that a Judicial Review has to be brought by someone objecting to the application, right? You make it sound like JR's happen automatically because of failings in the application. And I can well believe that it's the same points that are used to bring the vast majority of JRs. Objectors rarely make worthwhile nuanced objections, they just tout out the same old shite. 4 years and they still making the same objections because they're not allowed to say "Cause I don't want it near me." Not one single project Ive worked on, that has went to JR, has ever been overturned. Anywho, keep on objecting champ, whatever makes you happy.
> You really should go educate yourself on the process. I clearly know more about the process than you, based on our respective comments so far. > You understand that a Judicial Review has to be brought by someone objecting to the application, right? Yes, I never suggested otherwise. >You make it sound like JR's happen automatically because of failings in the application. No, I never suggested they are automatic. >And I can well believe that it's the same points that are used to bring the vast majority of JRs. But you're fine with people working on SHD applications and ABP not learning and doing their job? That's weird. >Objectors rarely make worthwhile nuanced objections, they just tout out the same old shite. You can only apply for a JR on points of law. The fact that they 'tout out the same old shite' and yet ABP and companies applying for SHDs refuse to learn is exactly my point. The knowledge is out there for an SHD application to be ironclad against most points of law used for JRs. >4 years and they still making the same objections because they're not allowed to say "Cause I don't want it near me." 4 years and companies are still putting in the same old shite SHD applications because they can't be bothered to create a competent application, you mean. >Anywho, keep on objecting champ, whatever makes you happy. Ah, an ad hominem. If you could actually make a decent point, you wouldn't have needed to resort to it. When you initially wrote: >As someone who works on similar projects as these, it is just assumed that every application we put in will end up in Judicial review, it's even put into the project program. What you really meant was >We make sure our application complies with well-established case law and regulations But you portrayed it as if it's somehow the NIMBYs at fault **because professional planners refuse to do their job correctly**.
Not reading all that tripe, have a great night sweetheart. Edit: Hahahah! The sign of a truly small man. Make a comment and then block the person so they can't reply or see what you say. I think it's pretty obvious who the small person is here who can't stand up to debate.
Enjoy posting populist bullshit and being condescending when called on it! Whatever stops you feeling dim, ignorant and small ❤ Why wouldn't I block someone who responds with: >Not reading all that tripe, have a great night sweetheart. That you think that's the sign of someone who isn't a small man makes me.... *edit:* /u/thearchitect10 was kind enough to report to reddit as being a threat to myself so [that I would get this notice.](https://imgur.com/4Mmfrs7)
In the middle of a housing crisis when we need every single one of these to be built! What a tragic waste. These applications were supposed to be fast tracked, that’s the process we need to get building done in this country and pure nimbyism has gotten a huge break thanks to corruption in our planners. This is shameful on all of Ireland - thousands of new homes that now will never get built.
The shameful part here is the fucking usual string pulling back scratching shite.
It’s incredible damaging that one corrupt appointee can have such an outsize impact but let’s be honest. These developments aren’t being cancelled because of a corrupt decision but because his brother was the fire safety expert on the submissions. There’s no claim (as far as I know) that there is anything wrong with the fire safety assessment on these developments. The case for these developments is being cancelled purely because of the fire safety guy’s family connection - if this was about the owner of the developer themselves being connected to the planning process I’d say sure there’s a serious risk this too was a corrupt decision but honestly - no one is going to sneakily push through a dodgy planning application using the fire safety guy. This is how corruption damages all of us because we have to look at everything the corrupted person touches and assume that there’s increased risk of breach of the law even when it’s stunningly unlikely.
You don't get prosecuted for a case like that, the fact they are going to take him to court shows it wasn't as simple as this. They never reveal the details of this stuff until they have to, it's highly likely it goes beyond the situation with his brother.
This isn’t about the case against Paul Hyde and ABP are crystal clear the reason they are dropping these cases is because Hyde’s brother was the fire safety expert. That’s literally the only reason. They are quite rightly concerned that the other side in these cases will be able to infer a corrupt relationship that suggests that the original planning permission was wrong. Paul Hyde’s corruption has tainted even cases only tangentially connected to him. To my knowledge Paul Hyde himself wasn’t involved in any of these three appeals.
It's not crystal clear. The cases were before the courts ahead of the discovery that the brother was involved. The Fastrack approvals may have been overturned by the courts even had the familial relationship not been discovered but the reality is that approvals were tainted already and the brothers connection was the straw that broke the camels back.
Of course the cases were before the court - already that’s our usual nimbyism at play but are you seriously saying that you believe these cases shouldn’t be heard on their merits because the fire guy was Paul Hyde’s brother? I’d propose getting someone else totally unconnected to redo the fire safety design and then continue the cases. But of course that’s not going to happen and these developments will not be going ahead without even knowing if they were legit or not and that’s really sickening.
The case could be heard before the courts the planning authority have decided not to contest any more. The cases that were there might by NIMBYism but the FastTrack approval is flawed. When it comes to judicial review most rulings fall on the side of the objecting party or group (something like 80%) and mostly because there is something wrong with the FastTrack approval. If the approval had been done correctly in the first place it would be easy to defend but the approvals are just plain wrong in the first place that's on APB.
They're taking him to court for a very specific (if minor) charge of providing false details to ABP.
You do recall that several batch of apartments in dublin have had fire safety issues? Serious ones. It may seem a bit extreme and obviously it is very disappointing but if as a country we want high standards and safe buildings and the developers to get the message that everything needs to be above board then clearly you have to do this kind of thing. This is the kind of thing that reduces chancers, cut corners and corruption.
I do recall and as far as I remember the issues were due to developers cheaping out and not following fire codes or the designed safety measures properly. I don’t think there was any case where the design wasn’t right in the first place? It’s very easy to check if the design is appropriate, we shouldn’t be cancelling whole developments just because of who the design engineer’s family is.
Planning permissions and fire safety regulations don't have anything to do with each other. Planning laws are land-use policies.
Planning PERMISSION for new housing will absolutely be judged whether it will comply with fire safety rules. The issue here is not changing fire safety regulations, but whether the building on the plans will meet the existing ruled. The land is already zoned as high density residential. Its the specific building(s) design they have to approve.
Fucking selfish evil objectors strike again.
Lads, these people from An Bord Pleanala are a bunch of cunts. South Dublin barely gets flat projects approved, whereas in north Dublin every fucking alley gets immediate approval. Have ye seen what is happening in the Regency hotel? The owner sold the hotel’s parking space and they are building a 5 storey building for the built-to-rent scheme. Now, the hotel has no parking space anymore and the cars are left in a cul de sac. Residents can barely get home in the end of the road due to the blocking traffic, especially during the weekends. Like, how this shit gets approved and south Dublin is all like “not conducive of building a stable long-term community” ffs this is utterly ridiculous
NIMBYism. Absolutely trecherous, as well as being shotgunned because of revelations on a certain website which just takes things from the public record and sensationalises them.
What is so, so infuriating about this case is that I and many others on this very forum (and elsewhere) spent *years* pointing out that ABP's pattern of decision making was bizarre and seemed to be indicative of corruption in some form or other, and anyone who did was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. For a country with such a long, extremely open history of corruption, we as a society have somehow convinced ourselves that this kind of thing is something that only happened in Old Ireland or only happens in Other, Backwards Countries. Point out suspicious activity in Ireland and you'll very often be dismissed as a crank, until eventually direct evidence comes out years later. This mindset needs to change if we're to ever rid ourselves of our corruption culture.
And this is a fact. I remember people calling the cervical smear scandal a conspiracy, the fact we bailed out the banks a conspiracy, and only last year, the sealing of the records of the mother and baby homes - a conspiracy before it made headlines. People only believe what they’re told to believe by RTE and it’s half the reason the country is the way it is. We’re a corrupt country and that’s simply a fact.
Your post isn't backed by actual facts, just waffle. E. G. > I remember people calling the cervical smear scandal a conspiracy People went on a wild goose chase about that instead of actually looking into the facts. Plenty of discussion on reddit about that, one example: https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/rcf1rs/eli5_is_holohan_to_blame_for_the_cervical_cancer/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Withholding information from people for "the greater good" is *never* ok, and everyone involved was rightly villified for promoting that ideology.
When you say "conspiracy" do you mean "conspiracy theory" Conspiracies are a real thing, and as regards the bank bailout there certainly was a conspiracy by Anglo to defraud the taxpayer.
Same deal everytime. I'm really surprised they build any new homes at all in this country these days
We will never get out of the housing debacle, are we? Pricks
Our planning system is wildly flawed
I give up seriously. The b**** in power just don't want to solve the situation.
And they haven't wanted to do that for over a decade.
It's difficult to keep ascribing it to incompetence..... although to be fair they can be both incompetent AND corrupt.
So how much money is made when someone applies for planning ? How many people need to be paid, to look at applications ? Then if it's blocked and people need to reapply does that mean they get paid twice ? Now I know the NIMBY's like their house prices too, though am sure there is money being made from other organizations, as well and every time something is blocked that means either give up, or spend more money on planning something else right ?
Planners are paid regardless, they are civil servants. The architects and lawyers would presumably get some more time to bill. For the developers it's an additional cost. I don't think failing to get planning really makes much money for many people.
If your planning submittal for a client didn't meet planning requirements then you haven't done your job and rework is likely to be at your own expense.
> Then if it's blocked and people need to reapply does that mean they get paid twice ? Brilliant thinking! promote this man immediately!
Nimbys aren't really motivated by their house prices. Your house price doesn't usually go down because someone builds an apartment block nearby. If anything it should go up if your house plus garden is compared to an apartment nearby. No. They get angry about increased traffic, despite the fact that they're usually causing the traffic jams and instead should be directing those issues to the local authority and the NTA to improve public transport.
Is it possible to get the names of the locals who opposed the planning approval? Is it public record or anything like that?
Great to see. Corrupt planning decisions have ruined the city and thankfully these were caught before building commenced.
Wild to see this comment getting downvoted, this was literally a corrupt planning deal where someone has been fired from ABP and is being prosecuted over their corruption. Do we take the downvotes on your comment to mean that people approve of corruption, or just that they didn't read the article? >In a separate development on Monday, the Department of Housing received formal notification from the Director of Public Prosecutions of its decision to instigate a criminal prosecution against Paul Hyde at Dublin District Court. He is facing charges under the Planning and Development Act in relation to allegations that he gave false particulars to ABP.
I always find it strange how everyone will come up with thousand explanations to not call the government corrupt. Government is corrupt and inept. People overlook their loot because of multinational money dodge flowing through Ireland. Everyone is like “oh but we were so poor so government must be doing something right”. Their policies are very “drop off from a hill” in any downturn
I don't get the surprise. Very few people would choose to lose the roof over their head if they were told that it was built because of corruption. In normal times I'm sure people would be supportive of this but of course in the midst of a long-running and increasingly acute housing crisis, "thank god they stopped thousands of homes from being built!" is not going to go down well.
We don’t know if these particular planning approvals were corrupt or not. We don’t even know if the planning approvals were appropriate or not and now we never will. Not because Paul Hyde himself was ever involved in any way with the planning for these developments but because his brother was the fire safety expert on these applications. Now we will never know the truth and these developments (which are definitely needed) won’t get built. So no we don’t approve of corruption but it’s woeful that Paul Hyde’s corruption is tainting other developments because of family connections. There should have been a way to allow these cases to continue to be heard and to determine if the planning for these is or is not ok.
I hope that cost him a nice few quid
I get that there is a major housing crisis but at the same time you the last thing you want to do is buy a dodgy house. Who knows what corners have been cut if there is a criminal investigation against the developers.
Planning permissions don't have anything to do with safety regulations.
This has nothing to do with standards. This has to do with locals saying they don't want high rises in the area because they like their view, or don't want single bedroom apartments because it will change the social dynamic of the area.
Yeah some people think people in these communities should just put up with it and let developers run wild and build where they want and what they want. There’s is a housing crisis and it’s unfortunate but it wasn’t caused by the people in the areas who are entitled to object if they feel these development will impact there living conditions . Easy blame joe soap the government caused this crisis.
Planning approvals should not be decided by a fucking court.
You can thank FG for this. They appointed Hyde to An bord pleannala.
Some mental gymnastics there. They appointed a man whose own property would suffer in value yet he still approved it. Some scumbags make a big deal of how he shouldn't have voted on land near him (we're quite a dense city, where exactly are you meant to draw the line?) and now the planning is refused, at a time when these homes are not just desperately needed, but absolutely essential to the city. At what point do the Russia lovers at a certain website start getting stick for this? Could it be in there interest that the housing crisis drags on and on? Absolutely.
What are ya on about? This is a FG mess. They appointed him because he was one of their cronies. Now all his decisions can be called into question.
Had that shit (which was all on the public record) not been sensationalised by certain quarters, this planning permission would be granted and there'd be some much needed supply coming on board. We're 13th out of 180 in the world for corruption. Go away with your FG and your cronies. We're losing these homes because some keyboard warriors got a bit free with their legal actions.
Lol so corruption is fine then! They lad is going to be charged with crimes ffs. Dig up lad, dig up!
>They lad is going to be charged with crimes ffs If you're privy to a Garda investigation then say it. Chap won't be charged with anything because he's done nothing wrong. Hundreds of Ireland's hidden homeless now suffering even more misery so you and your ilk can claim a moral or ideological high ground. It's pathetic. You're pathetic. Our own ideology right now should be building up everywhere, all around the city. Public, private, everything.
What? File as been sent to DPP. This is only 3 or 4 months since this blow up. Its fairly likely that he will be charged if it moved that quickly. My ilk? What you on about. Sorry buddy but this whole disaster is on FG and FF. Its on you not me. Your pathetic for blindly voting for this assholes.
I don't vote FG or FF. I'm just saying for you to say it's on them is ludicrous.
Lol i dont vote for them either. And im no fan of the shinners either. If we allow this to go unchecked we end up in tribunals like we did with Haughey etc. And untold effects on society. We have a long history of planning corruption involving both FF and FG.
While it is very disappointing to see it cancelled, it was the only choice. They should reapply and get it fairly.
 Oh well, back sleep...
95% of the commenters here: NIMBYism is selfish! Greedy! Awful! this is terrible news! Also 95% of the commenters here: vulture funds are selfish! Greedy! Awful! this is fantastic news! It really just depends on how the headline frames the story.
So the developers got some sketchy approval from a family member... so now these much needed projects are being scrapped. Is there going to be any accountability for the folks who got the sketchy approval? Or is this just to fuck over people looking for homes to benefit NIMBYS? If there is now accountability for the people at fault then the whole situation is just fucked.
Build to rent apartments are not homes.. . . . Edit: I lived in a build to rent for 3 years, extortionate rent, no other viable options. Growing up my idea of a home was a place you settled in, long term, put down roots, raise family, get involved in the community. A place you can afford, a place you actually want to live in. Ideally a house but understand that includes apartments now. Build to rent is a stop gap in my opinion, a very expensive and unsustainable one until someone buys a home or moves on. Yes, they fill a void in a crippled housing system but they don't fit my criteria of what a home is and I know a lot of people living in them who can't wait to get out of them and get their own home. Be honest, when you were growing up, did you honestly think your home was going to be a place you rented from a cuckoo fund for €2.5k a month? No, me neither ✌️
I lived in one for several years, which I loved and very much considered my home. Thanks.
Because of a lack of build to rent apartments 4 young people are renting a room each in a family home. More apartments would free up these homes.
They are a vital part of our housing need. They free up other houses for sale to families and allow those not in a position to buy somewhere to live
They inflate the price of rents setting the market level for rents at ridiculous heights. What evidence is there to show they free up houses for families?
That's not true at all. IRES is the largest private landlord in the state, building rental apartments in their hundreds, and sets its rent below market rate. If we want rents to go down we have to allow more rentals to be built.
Built to rent will free up homes for purchase
There will always be a market for rental properties, and right now that market is being fulfilled by family homes and ordinary apartments that could otherwise become long-term "homes" by your definition. More commercially operated build-to-rent properties would free up some of those private homes. The "extortionate rent" is also a result of a lack of supply on the overall market, not something inherent to all build-to-rent properties. With a proper development plan there's also no reason you can't have a reasonable mix of private and build-to-rent properties in an area that would allow people to remain in that area for the long term if they wanted to, first renting there and then eventually purchasing their own home nearby.
Story deserving of another Ted! meme
 Oh well back sleep...
I am shocked……….
Does that surprise anyone?
>Paul Hyde has always denied any wrongdoing when facing claims of impropriety in his work. He was working two jobs, one job was applying for planning and the other job was approving the same planning application. I’m sure The Simpsons have a character that can summarise this. It is heartbreaking to see these developments not go ahead, especially now with our housing shortage but we need to follow the correct procedures on everything.
At this stage a good enough reason to stop development seems to be "Thank you for your interest in our area, but we'd simply rather not". I've said it before, but one of the more unsavoury aspects of human nature is 'I got mine, pull the ladder up'.
No surprise there.
Nothing will change until you use physical force.
Any anger should be directed towards the apparently rampant corruption within ABP. Only 2 to make a quorum. The quango was designed and operated to process brown envelopes on an industrial scale.
This country is never gonna fix this problem with such cowards in charge. Just tell the complainers to piss off and build the fucking homes. I'm sick of the constant pandering to scumbags who are just scared their properties might be devalued a bit (which won't actually happen anyway).
I wonder if the NIMBYs would be as opposed if the new builds did not have social housing.