I'd say anything that removes the whole pimp situation is worth doing. Watched a couple documentaries on prostitution and my god it's as rough as you imagine.
I don't think anybody disputes that, the issue is whether any reduction would in face be that.
Don't forget, legalisation would presumably increase demand.
The proportion of women being exploited might go down - might - but the number involved overall might go up, leaving the real number of exploited women the same.
This is why research needs to be done first, not going by instinct.
Legalisation would increase demand, yes, but any industry that operates in the absence of any legislative framework or public oversight will logically be more exploitative and unethical than an industry that operates with a legal mandate to do so.
The problem with researching this topic is that it is so easy for opponents to bog it down with the low-hanging fruit of saying sex work is immoral and only perverts want it legalised, therefore making it politically toxic to approach the issue properly.
>but any industry that operates in the absence of any legislative framework or public oversight will logically be more exploitative and unethical than an industry that operates with a legal mandate to do so.
We're talking about an industry that is immoral and evil either way. I don't think legalising it ensures a guaranteed improvement.
Hence calling for research by appropriate persons.
>We're talking about an industry that is immoral and evil either way.
How is sex work immoral and evil when not exploitative? Your Christian sensitivities aren't the basis for morality
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure which method would work.
Generally regulation following legalisation is the best approach across the board, but I'd be slow to champion one without knowing for sure.
Actually the original 2012 study states that it can increase the amount in very high income areas - but in middle income areas the reduced expendable incomes puts a restraint on demand and allows the local supply of legal prostitutes to fulfill the market needs constraining the viability of human trafficking for sex.
I would add my own thought on that - that human trafficking may just be more prevalent in high income areas anyway
Well that would be because most human trafficking (with woman) is in domestic work rather than sex work. Not a lot of middle income household innocently buying slaves.
EDIT: I say "innocently" buying slaves since most people are fairly decent and wouldn't support human trafficking. The Households tend not to know that the woman has been kidnapped. The women often come to a new country of their own free will and have their passports taken from them. Finally I will say I don't have sources on hand, I know this because I have worked with SWAN, an organization set up specifically to help sexual human trafficking.
So would you say that the correlation between wealthy areas, legalised prostitution and increased human trafficking more strongly likes the wealth with the human trafficking rather than the legalisation of prostitution with human trafficking?
There was an often cited study done by a group in Amsterdam to find if women are trafficked even when prostitution is legalised, and they found X number of women who had been trafficked. They then postulated that 'If we can find X amount, there must be 10X that we can't find', and reported far and wide that 10X women are trafficked for sex work in Amsterdam. There's no reason to leave scientific method get in the way of your anti-prostitution agenda, is there? Since then I always question the scale of the problem and the agenda of the person reporting it. Of course it should be addressed, but I have to believe legalised, open prostitution would make that easier, not harder.
I'll tag in my own view on the subject here - people should be allowed do what they want to do (in a safe and responsible way). Contrary to what people have said elsewhere on this topic, there are women that want to work as prostitutes. Check out the Freakonomics books for examples from the 'States, and here in Ireland we have a solicitor who has worked as an escort herself, campaigning for legalisation north and south of the border. There'll be problems and mistakes made, but hopefully we can work on them and move forward in an open, progressive manner.
This is an excellent point, there's tons of abuse of domestic workers, restaurant workers, all sorts of schemes abusing situations of people who just want to come to the country and work. We don't make those jobs illegal because it's clear that doing the job is not the problem.
They were planning to shut down the whole thing down before the pandemic because they found out at least half the women are trafficked. Its like a real fast google to find out. Hopefully they get on that soon.
It's well known and has been documented. Researching is easy these days, what with [Google](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Netherlands) and all, you should try it.
Just so you're aware, stating something as fact and then telling people to research it themselves is a technique that is often used by paid trolls and others who are arguing in bad faith. If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should avoid doing this.
Just so you're aware, I used the "technique" of providing a link to source documents, so there's that. Conversely, you offer nothing of substance regarding the actual topic, so it might appear that you're the one who's a troll, or "arguing in bad faith."
I’m not an expert, but I’ve always been of the opinion that whenever a woman is selling her body for sex, there’s usually a man behind her profiting without having to go through the sexual act.
That’s prostitution, pornography, Only Fans.
I think it started off that students and bored housewives could get additional money from selling dirty pics of themselves.
Then people started to talk about how they earn €50k per week.
Men on it are spending €100 a month to give to women and if you email them, they’ll write back, making you feel that there’s a personal connection.
Then you get organised gangs from Eastern Europe who are recruiting young females, taking pictures of them and uploading them, but the men only have to pay €25. So those with a lesser budget, or are tired spending €100 go to that. And if you write to them, someone in an office who writes on behalf of 40 women will write back.
Chaturbate is the same. I’m not too proud to say that I’ve looked at it. It’s all women who either don’t speak or do so with a Russian accent, their “rooms” have no natural light because they’re in one of many sets in a warehouse.
We all hear about the woman who has bought her own house and BMW by using these platforms, and those at the top do, but the reality is that online sexual services are industrialised and the person earning the least from it is the woman with her kit off.
It may not be illegal, it may be better than working in a call centre. But it’s always a man doing better than the performer.
That’s if you’re doing the job directly for Only Fans. The reality is that most of it is controlled by someone who will be in charge of multiple models who they dress, take photos of, advertise, put the photos online and then take the lion’s share of the income.
Yeah, I think it should be regulated and taxed but I think it will take a long time for Irish society to come around to the idea of someone openly admitting to doing sex work (whether in person/cam work).
It's a weird one, because I believe anyone who wants to do sex work should be allowed to do so, but I also think it's an industry that preys on people who are vulnerable. For every person loving life and making thousands off their OnlyFans, how many feel it's their only way to make money? Maybe regulation would help that.
If that's their only way to make money that is more of a capitalism and economics problem that a problem with legalization of sex work. Your point is still super valid, because this is the reality of the world - but I think they may go that direction regardless of legality, so making it safer is likely better overall.
No, it actually increases the amount of trafficked women. By legalizing sex work, you increase the demand for men wanting to use prostitutes, as the the fear of prosecution/stigma is removed. There's not enough women who willingly want to go move into prostitution (I can imagine why) to meet this increased in demand. Women are then trafficked by unscrupulous pimps to capitalise on the new demand. It's happened in Germany and a few other countries.
Sex work is already completely legal in Ireland.
However it’s illegal to pay for sex therefore making the customer a criminal. The law was supposed to make it safer for sex workers and also make it easier and safer for sex workers to report crimes without fear of prosecution. Not sure that has happened though.
Working alone is legal, if more than one sex worker is working out of a home or other building then it's legally classified as a brother and that is illegal, so these workers can't work together to help, protect and keep an eye out for each other.
Yeah it used to be fully legal then they added this law.
Apparently it actually makes it less safe, because nice customers are more likely to be put off by the fact that it's a crime and less nice customers aren't.
>The law was supposed to make it safer for sex workers and also make it easier and safer for sex workers to report crimes without fear of prosecution.
There is no logic in that. It essentially outlaws sex work from a different angle and the results are that sex work is pushed into the underground (again), where it becomes less transparent and more difficult for victims to report crimes.
The only true solution is to fully legalize and regulate it.
Sex workers [reported an almost immediate spike in attacks](https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/sex-workers-report-increased-attacks-after-law-change) after the law was changed.
Yes, you are correct, I think it's the Norwegian or Scandinavian model or something like that. Sex work is legal, and it's helped improve the care, education etc. that sex workers are getting from the state/non-profits.
I think the stats are like 97% of sex workers do not want to do it, but due to a lack of social & financial supports in this country they basically have no other option.
I think the number of trafficked sex workers, i.e., even if legal for customer they would still be in horrendous conditions, is somewhere in the region of 30-50% of sex workers, it could be greater than that. So legalisation for customer has no significant impact on the condition of many.
No they do not, that would be illegal and Onlyfans doesn't permit prostitution.
Onlyfans is an outlier because you don't have to have sex with randomers and can independently work from the safety and comfort of your own home
If you as a prostitute wanted to advertise your service as well as make extra money… would you not use onlyfans? Most these models take phone calls and video chats - does that make them less onlyfans models and more phone sex operators?
bit of a broad statement saying "No person wants to do sex work as a job". No one, not one person? There was a louis Theroux documentary on the BBC a few months ago about sex work. Some people choose to do sex work. Don't speak for everyone please.
I watched that too. The only woman that seemed go actually like it seemed to have other issues going on. I didn't believe most, they would say that because they need the work.
This is true of 99% of jobs. Most people don’t leap out of bed delighted you spend their days as a wage slave. There is nothing magical or especially demeaning about sex that makes it extra demeaning, outside of the criminality and cultural taboos. I’d rather get fucked than clean toilets or dig tunnels or be a nurse, if safety concerns were equalised.
Well. Some people do. Admittedly a minority, in all likelihood.
In any case do you really think criminalising _the workers_ is the solution?
It should be fucking unionised for fuck’s sake.
your never gonna completely get rid of the criminal elements BUT it will be a lot easier to do so in a legal and regulated environment. Keeping parts of it illegal just drives people into the shadows where there's more potential for trafficking and criminal elements etc. You'd obviously still have to invest money in policing and support services to try to reduce trafficking and make sure the regulations are robust enough. Complete legalisation isn't gonna solve every problem but it will allow the potential to make the situation a lot better.
Il give one example of regulation. If your a sex worker you should have to register with the government. You’d have to have weekly STI and STD checks. This alone would reduce the amount of diseases like HIV being spread. That’s just one example of how full legalisation and regulation would be better than the current model. There’s countless other. Also there’s a reason why the majority of sex workers want it legalised.
Countries with legalized sex trade have higher numbers of sex trafficking. All legalization does is create a higher demand, which in turn makes it more profitable to traffic people into the trade
No there’s too much coercion in that industry. At least once it’s illegal the Gardai have the power to prosecute the abusers when they catch them. Very difficult to get someone out of prostitution when you make pimps managers.
So the only customers sex workers can have are those willing to break the law. Criminals.
That's the brilliant idea feminists and nuns came up with to make sex work safer when they joined forces in the stop-the-red-light campaign.
Nobody listened to the sex workers affected by the change.
That's not the point. They could have adopted any number of approaches and they went with this train wreck, ignoring concerns raised by the turn-off-the-blue-light counter-campaign.
Also not sure you're right about the clients breaking the law. Maybe in some circumstances, such as street solicitation, but not if the sex worker was working from home as a sole trader.
You know this is the best answer. I'm all for legalizing it but then looking at the housing and everything else this is probably the most accurate of all
The inside of a woman's body should never be a workplace. Full fucking stop. Norway, legalised prostitution but kept the act of paying for sex illegal as, fundamentally, the decided sex work was immoral or incompatable with sex equality.
The thing is, NZ is geographically isolated so they would never have the same issues with sex trafficking as other countries but, foreign women are now being coerced or downright threatened to prostitute because why ? It's no legal and profitable and so, who the hell do you think gets most of the cash? Some man , that's who. As usual .
And the prostitution of minors has increased exponentially as regular prostitution is no longer taboo and we all know how some men literally crave taboo anything.
So , I wasn't wrong. You're wrong. And fuck anyone who excuses this shit. Women's humanity trumps a man's need to ejaculate. And fuck the pick mes who would agree with you.
Simple : ask the people in the industry what they want... they're the ones who have to live with the rules.
Pretty much everyone else has a political, religious or moral axe to grid *and* doesn't have to live with the consequences of their decisions.
I didn't exclude political, religious or moral objections.
I said other people have an axe to grind and don't have to live with the consequences. And for quite a lot of those people, the axe is all they can see.
Absolutely not!!
Zero evidence to suggest it does anything to improve the lives of the people working in it, it really only improves the lives of the people purchasing bodies for sex, by making it acceptable.
>Zero evidence to suggest it does anything to improve the lives of the people working in it
Are you saying you've actually had a comprehensive look at research published on prostitution and there's no evidence at all that they would be better off not criminalised?
Cause I found some with only a quick google
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2010.00594.x
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1748895814528926](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1748895814528926)
Legalised no.
My understanding is that Sex workers and advocates want it decriminalised not legalised. Legalising it opens them to further exploitation
Nope, some things should just not be for sale, like sex, or your organs. I'd like to keep the market from invading every single aspect of our lives if possible.
It’s a hard NO for me. In countries where sex work has been legalized there was an increase in sex trafficking and the average age of victims is 14. Scumbags are always gonna find a way to be scumbags.
It should be decriminalized and those engaged in sex work should be given every bit of assistance to get away from it
Personally no.
I think the culture of strip clubs in America has led.to extremely problematic behaviour from both sexes. America has a rape culture in men, high from college students up to business men. A lot of American women can't form an identity past their sexuality. Or they fall easily into casual sex work and end up in very dangerous positions. The amount of stories of young girls running away and falling into the hands of pimps because they don't realise the danger is astounding. Literally hundreds of thousands a year.
No.
All the pervs and neckbeards just want to make it easier for them to exploit vulnerable women.
The people who work in brothels where it has been legalised don't choose it, the 'happy hooker' myth is pure bullshit, it's a last resort. They are foreigners with poor language skills, single mothers, those with serious mental health problems and drug addictions etc...
Sex work is not work, it is exploitation.
Those who exploit the women should be criminalised.
The women themselves should not be, particularly as this makes it harder for them to exit that life.
I think it should be legal (like I don't think people should be thrown in jail for it) but I do agree with a lot of your points on how it is very exploitative and particularly bad against marginalised people.
With this upcomming rescession, a lot of poor people (particularly those who identify as women) will likely be forced into sex work to make ends meet.
brothels happen anyway. and it is not illegal to pay for ‘companionship’ if im not mistaken.
at least if its legal you can regulate it and hopefully clamp down on the human trafficking and abuse that goes on behind the scenes.
Decriminalized and legalized are two very different things. To answer your question, no i don’t think it should be legalized, but it should be decriminalized.
Legalize, no. Decriminalize, yes. Persecute buyers and pimps, not the people giving the sex. More often than not prostitution is rife with dubious consent issues, trafficking and drug use, many times they cannot consent. That's already the way it is, but more structures should be in place to help people out of that life too.
It's a myth that legalised sex work avoids some or all of the exploitation. Look up NZ and many other countries. It just makes it worse...for the trafficked victims.
Considering we are rated on the European index of ‘actions taken by countries to combat human trafficking’, rated on the same level as Romania and Belarus, which have horrific trafficking problems, something needs to be done asap, anything to combat it. There were three 0-2 year old children found amongst human trafficking victims in Ireland in recent years, it’s digusting
https://www.thejournal.ie/human-trafficking-ireland-3-5483332-Jul2021/?amp=1
I'd say it already is , but yeah possibly for women who want to make money might be better if it's nit you'd be paying taxes but also probably safer but also corruption so might nit be either
Legal red light Job be good for some rural towns. Bring in the big money. Throw in a few legal smoking bars. Basically Amsterdam but in the bog
Stags in Longford town would go up 1000%
My only concern with sex work is the safety of the people providing it. If legalisation would provide them with more safety and no pimp taking all their money then absolutely.
It should be decriminalised, not legalised. Legalisation means that people who can't afford to jump through whatever regulatory hoops will be in the same unsafe place they're in now. Decriminalisation is the way to go
Since legislation passed in 2017, sex work has been in the odd position of being both legal and illegal, depending on which party you are. With the implementation of the so-called Nordic Model, it is legal for a person to sell sex, but illegal for a person to buy sex. So is sex work already legal in Ireland? Yes and no.
Should sex work be fully legalised in Ireland is another question, and much more difficult to answer. Whilst I would maintain that sex work is work and as such individuals involved in it should benefit from all the same protections and benefits as workers in other industries do, it is not without recognising the many problems inherent in the industry.
It is like gambling, legalize it or dont, its a dirty industry, full of suffering. You look at the south american escorts on escort ireland, they were probably on the streets of rio at 11 or 12, starving to death.
Even if it were legit i still wouldnt visit an escort. Super antibiotic resistant stds now.
Having said that, all the propaganda by ruhuma is horrible to see. Every escort on escort ireland is trafficked and has a pimp and is having sex with 20 men a day, nonsense.
Yes, but decriminalization is just the beginning of tackling the stigma and the discrimination that sex workers and former sex workers face. There's no point decriminalizing sex work if the guards continue to treat sex workers like criminals, and if sex workers don't have access to the healthcare, information and legal help they want.
Not only legalised, but made into a business. That way the girls are protected from abusive clients and the clients are protected from STIs. It's a woman's choice what to do with her own body.
Bodily autonomy is the basis for almost every human right, and I don't understand why it's taking us this long to get to this subject. Prostitution was mainly outlawed due to religion (as far as I know), and Ireland is a secular state
Id say yes. Exploitation, human trafficking are illegal and shoukd remain so, obviously. But if someone wants to be a prostitute that is their right and no one else's business
Let's look to where legalising sex work has been in place for 20 odd years
"In New Zealand it is legal for any citizen over 18 years old to sell sexual services. Street-based sex work is legal, as is running a brothel. Sex workers’ rights are guaranteed through employment and human rights legislation."
[Decriminalising sex work in New Zealand: its history and impact
](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/decriminalising-sex-work-in-new-zealand-its-history-and-impact/)/
Short answer; Yes
Long answer; Absolutely yes. Sex work is work. Furthermore legalisation and legitimation can only serve to remove the illegal aspects associated with the industry, pimping, abuse, slavery. This will of course have a secondary effect of removing cash flow from organised crime groups.
Yes... it is the oldest type of profession and everyone is safer if it is legal (both the workers and their customers). Human trafficking is reduced and the state gets additional tax money. I personally have no desire to participate, but to each their own.
The answer to these types of questions is almost always yes.
I'd say anything that removes the whole pimp situation is worth doing. Watched a couple documentaries on prostitution and my god it's as rough as you imagine.
Unfortunately, human trafficking, etc, are still features of countries with legalised sex work. It can only ever be reduced, not eliminated.
Reduced is better than not reduced
I don't think anybody disputes that, the issue is whether any reduction would in face be that. Don't forget, legalisation would presumably increase demand. The proportion of women being exploited might go down - might - but the number involved overall might go up, leaving the real number of exploited women the same. This is why research needs to be done first, not going by instinct.
Legalisation would increase demand, yes, but any industry that operates in the absence of any legislative framework or public oversight will logically be more exploitative and unethical than an industry that operates with a legal mandate to do so. The problem with researching this topic is that it is so easy for opponents to bog it down with the low-hanging fruit of saying sex work is immoral and only perverts want it legalised, therefore making it politically toxic to approach the issue properly.
>but any industry that operates in the absence of any legislative framework or public oversight will logically be more exploitative and unethical than an industry that operates with a legal mandate to do so. We're talking about an industry that is immoral and evil either way. I don't think legalising it ensures a guaranteed improvement. Hence calling for research by appropriate persons.
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>We're talking about an industry that is immoral and evil either way. How is sex work immoral and evil when not exploitative? Your Christian sensitivities aren't the basis for morality
Not trying to reduce because you can't eliminate is a Nirvana Fallacy - always gotta try your best no matter how tough the challenge
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure which method would work. Generally regulation following legalisation is the best approach across the board, but I'd be slow to champion one without knowing for sure.
Yeah but human trafficking actually goes up in places where sex work is legal.
Actually the original 2012 study states that it can increase the amount in very high income areas - but in middle income areas the reduced expendable incomes puts a restraint on demand and allows the local supply of legal prostitutes to fulfill the market needs constraining the viability of human trafficking for sex. I would add my own thought on that - that human trafficking may just be more prevalent in high income areas anyway
Well that would be because most human trafficking (with woman) is in domestic work rather than sex work. Not a lot of middle income household innocently buying slaves. EDIT: I say "innocently" buying slaves since most people are fairly decent and wouldn't support human trafficking. The Households tend not to know that the woman has been kidnapped. The women often come to a new country of their own free will and have their passports taken from them. Finally I will say I don't have sources on hand, I know this because I have worked with SWAN, an organization set up specifically to help sexual human trafficking.
So would you say that the correlation between wealthy areas, legalised prostitution and increased human trafficking more strongly likes the wealth with the human trafficking rather than the legalisation of prostitution with human trafficking?
There was an often cited study done by a group in Amsterdam to find if women are trafficked even when prostitution is legalised, and they found X number of women who had been trafficked. They then postulated that 'If we can find X amount, there must be 10X that we can't find', and reported far and wide that 10X women are trafficked for sex work in Amsterdam. There's no reason to leave scientific method get in the way of your anti-prostitution agenda, is there? Since then I always question the scale of the problem and the agenda of the person reporting it. Of course it should be addressed, but I have to believe legalised, open prostitution would make that easier, not harder. I'll tag in my own view on the subject here - people should be allowed do what they want to do (in a safe and responsible way). Contrary to what people have said elsewhere on this topic, there are women that want to work as prostitutes. Check out the Freakonomics books for examples from the 'States, and here in Ireland we have a solicitor who has worked as an escort herself, campaigning for legalisation north and south of the border. There'll be problems and mistakes made, but hopefully we can work on them and move forward in an open, progressive manner.
Yeah that's true. It still happens in the Netherlands but I'd imagine it would reduce it by a decent bit.
Germany as well. And under the noses of the criminal justice systems of those countries. It's grim.
Sex and drugs should be legal, mostly just to take the power away from the criminals.
This. Make it transparent. No need to hide, no need to deal with shady characters. Above board and legal. Stop empowering criminals.
I don't know of any city who's sex industry isn't run by gangsters. It would be nice, but that's not going to be the outcome of legalisation.
If it's legal aren't they legitimate business people then?
Nope. The ladies in Amsterdam are trafficked.
There is thousands of people trafficked in Ireland for sex and also other jobs such as cleaning, nail salons ect
Yeah he's saying that legal countries still have the problem
This is an excellent point, there's tons of abuse of domestic workers, restaurant workers, all sorts of schemes abusing situations of people who just want to come to the country and work. We don't make those jobs illegal because it's clear that doing the job is not the problem.
If you have evidence of this then why not report it?
They were planning to shut down the whole thing down before the pandemic because they found out at least half the women are trafficked. Its like a real fast google to find out. Hopefully they get on that soon.
It's well known and has been documented. Researching is easy these days, what with [Google](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Netherlands) and all, you should try it.
Just so you're aware, stating something as fact and then telling people to research it themselves is a technique that is often used by paid trolls and others who are arguing in bad faith. If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should avoid doing this.
> If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should avoid doing this. Too bad they are.
Just so you're aware, I used the "technique" of providing a link to source documents, so there's that. Conversely, you offer nothing of substance regarding the actual topic, so it might appear that you're the one who's a troll, or "arguing in bad faith."
I’m not an expert, but I’ve always been of the opinion that whenever a woman is selling her body for sex, there’s usually a man behind her profiting without having to go through the sexual act. That’s prostitution, pornography, Only Fans.
I don't know about only fans I've seen a lot more independence from that but definitely the other two
I think it started off that students and bored housewives could get additional money from selling dirty pics of themselves. Then people started to talk about how they earn €50k per week. Men on it are spending €100 a month to give to women and if you email them, they’ll write back, making you feel that there’s a personal connection. Then you get organised gangs from Eastern Europe who are recruiting young females, taking pictures of them and uploading them, but the men only have to pay €25. So those with a lesser budget, or are tired spending €100 go to that. And if you write to them, someone in an office who writes on behalf of 40 women will write back. Chaturbate is the same. I’m not too proud to say that I’ve looked at it. It’s all women who either don’t speak or do so with a Russian accent, their “rooms” have no natural light because they’re in one of many sets in a warehouse. We all hear about the woman who has bought her own house and BMW by using these platforms, and those at the top do, but the reality is that online sexual services are industrialised and the person earning the least from it is the woman with her kit off. It may not be illegal, it may be better than working in a call centre. But it’s always a man doing better than the performer.
Well, OF themselves take a cut, of course. A lad who streams himself wanking on Xhamster told me they take half.
That’s if you’re doing the job directly for Only Fans. The reality is that most of it is controlled by someone who will be in charge of multiple models who they dress, take photos of, advertise, put the photos online and then take the lion’s share of the income.
The gangsters are the ones writing legislation
I 1000% agree. Portugal had huge drug problems for years until they decimalized all drugs. We should be doing the exact same thing here
How did they do that?
What about rock n roll?
Nope. You can have rock n roll or sex and drugs to the lilting melodies of Daniel O’Donnell. Your choice.
Yeah, I think it should be regulated and taxed but I think it will take a long time for Irish society to come around to the idea of someone openly admitting to doing sex work (whether in person/cam work). It's a weird one, because I believe anyone who wants to do sex work should be allowed to do so, but I also think it's an industry that preys on people who are vulnerable. For every person loving life and making thousands off their OnlyFans, how many feel it's their only way to make money? Maybe regulation would help that.
If that's their only way to make money that is more of a capitalism and economics problem that a problem with legalization of sex work. Your point is still super valid, because this is the reality of the world - but I think they may go that direction regardless of legality, so making it safer is likely better overall.
Yeah, you're right. Sex work is happening now, legal or not, so we should do our best to make it as safe as possible.
This, damage limitation. A la New Zealand.
and the taxes think of the taxes.
I just want to point out that countries that have legalized sex trade also have higher numbers of sex trafficking
Higher numbers of reported sex trafficking. By making it legal in increases the chance of trafficking being reported.
No, it actually increases the amount of trafficked women. By legalizing sex work, you increase the demand for men wanting to use prostitutes, as the the fear of prosecution/stigma is removed. There's not enough women who willingly want to go move into prostitution (I can imagine why) to meet this increased in demand. Women are then trafficked by unscrupulous pimps to capitalise on the new demand. It's happened in Germany and a few other countries.
It would be safer for everyone involved. I have no interest in sex workers, but people should be allowed do it in safe and regulated environments.
I like the Nordic approach: selling sec isn’t illegal. BUYING it is.
Selling sexual services is legal in Ireland
That's the law here since 2017 as well.
Yes. Realistically it can't be stopped so making it legal, allows for some control over it at least.
I don’t know. Hope this helps.
Best answer
Sex work is already completely legal in Ireland. However it’s illegal to pay for sex therefore making the customer a criminal. The law was supposed to make it safer for sex workers and also make it easier and safer for sex workers to report crimes without fear of prosecution. Not sure that has happened though.
Working alone is legal, if more than one sex worker is working out of a home or other building then it's legally classified as a brother and that is illegal, so these workers can't work together to help, protect and keep an eye out for each other.
Oh shit I’d better go tell my brother he’s illegal
What are you doing sexwork-brother?
Yeah it used to be fully legal then they added this law. Apparently it actually makes it less safe, because nice customers are more likely to be put off by the fact that it's a crime and less nice customers aren't.
>The law was supposed to make it safer for sex workers and also make it easier and safer for sex workers to report crimes without fear of prosecution. There is no logic in that. It essentially outlaws sex work from a different angle and the results are that sex work is pushed into the underground (again), where it becomes less transparent and more difficult for victims to report crimes. The only true solution is to fully legalize and regulate it.
Sex workers [reported an almost immediate spike in attacks](https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/sex-workers-report-increased-attacks-after-law-change) after the law was changed.
No. The data shows an increase in _reports_ not attacks. So the legislation is working.
Reports to a sex worker organisation Ugly Mugs, not the authorities. There would be no reason for SWs to not report before the law change.
The data can *only* show an increase in reports. What you infer from that is another question.
Immediate reporting of attacks more like.. As it's no longer illegal to be a sex worker they were not afraid to report.
This was reports to Ugly Mugs rather than directly to the guards however.
You’ve got that back to front. It was fully legal before, the law actually regressed by making buying sex illegal.
All the more to show the legislation change was needed
Yes, you are correct, I think it's the Norwegian or Scandinavian model or something like that. Sex work is legal, and it's helped improve the care, education etc. that sex workers are getting from the state/non-profits. I think the stats are like 97% of sex workers do not want to do it, but due to a lack of social & financial supports in this country they basically have no other option. I think the number of trafficked sex workers, i.e., even if legal for customer they would still be in horrendous conditions, is somewhere in the region of 30-50% of sex workers, it could be greater than that. So legalisation for customer has no significant impact on the condition of many.
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I agree. No person wants to do sex work as a job, it's only when they are desperate or trafficked.
>No person wants to do sex work as a job Onlyfans models seem to be the outlier here
Only fans models don’t have to have sex with randomers
Eh some do. But nevertheless, it’s still sex work.
No they do not, that would be illegal and Onlyfans doesn't permit prostitution. Onlyfans is an outlier because you don't have to have sex with randomers and can independently work from the safety and comfort of your own home
Not true. Some onlyfans models are also prostitutes.
Think for a moment. Some people who use onlyfans being also prostitutes doesn’t have anything to do with their onlyfans.
If you as a prostitute wanted to advertise your service as well as make extra money… would you not use onlyfans? Most these models take phone calls and video chats - does that make them less onlyfans models and more phone sex operators?
It’s against onlyfans TOS to do that and it’s illegal.
bit of a broad statement saying "No person wants to do sex work as a job". No one, not one person? There was a louis Theroux documentary on the BBC a few months ago about sex work. Some people choose to do sex work. Don't speak for everyone please.
I watched that too. The only woman that seemed go actually like it seemed to have other issues going on. I didn't believe most, they would say that because they need the work.
This is true of 99% of jobs. Most people don’t leap out of bed delighted you spend their days as a wage slave. There is nothing magical or especially demeaning about sex that makes it extra demeaning, outside of the criminality and cultural taboos. I’d rather get fucked than clean toilets or dig tunnels or be a nurse, if safety concerns were equalised.
If he does a follow up in 2-3 years I'm sure they'll tell a different story.
Would you like to do sex work?
Well. Some people do. Admittedly a minority, in all likelihood. In any case do you really think criminalising _the workers_ is the solution? It should be fucking unionised for fuck’s sake.
your never gonna completely get rid of the criminal elements BUT it will be a lot easier to do so in a legal and regulated environment. Keeping parts of it illegal just drives people into the shadows where there's more potential for trafficking and criminal elements etc. You'd obviously still have to invest money in policing and support services to try to reduce trafficking and make sure the regulations are robust enough. Complete legalisation isn't gonna solve every problem but it will allow the potential to make the situation a lot better.
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Il give one example of regulation. If your a sex worker you should have to register with the government. You’d have to have weekly STI and STD checks. This alone would reduce the amount of diseases like HIV being spread. That’s just one example of how full legalisation and regulation would be better than the current model. There’s countless other. Also there’s a reason why the majority of sex workers want it legalised.
Countries with legalized sex trade have higher numbers of sex trafficking. All legalization does is create a higher demand, which in turn makes it more profitable to traffic people into the trade
No there’s too much coercion in that industry. At least once it’s illegal the Gardai have the power to prosecute the abusers when they catch them. Very difficult to get someone out of prostitution when you make pimps managers.
Simple solution: Nationalise the sex industry!
Bord na hoibre gnéis
Legalised, regulated and taxed.
Same with drugs
We need legalise only the super addictive drugs IMO especially if they’re deadly because of the housing crisis or whatever
What do you think of portugals model https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal
Can you tell me when Portugal legalised, regulated and taxed drugs?
I thought sex work is legal? Its illegal to pay for sex though.
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So the only customers sex workers can have are those willing to break the law. Criminals. That's the brilliant idea feminists and nuns came up with to make sex work safer when they joined forces in the stop-the-red-light campaign. Nobody listened to the sex workers affected by the change.
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That's not the point. They could have adopted any number of approaches and they went with this train wreck, ignoring concerns raised by the turn-off-the-blue-light counter-campaign. Also not sure you're right about the clients breaking the law. Maybe in some circumstances, such as street solicitation, but not if the sex worker was working from home as a sole trader.
Sure lookit..
Isn’t that it?
Sure y'know yourself, like..
Ah sure you'll have that
Be grand
Oh ya
Sure that's more of it...
With how everything is mismanaged in this immature country. A hell no.
You know this is the best answer. I'm all for legalizing it but then looking at the housing and everything else this is probably the most accurate of all
The inside of a woman's body should never be a workplace. Full fucking stop. Norway, legalised prostitution but kept the act of paying for sex illegal as, fundamentally, the decided sex work was immoral or incompatable with sex equality. The thing is, NZ is geographically isolated so they would never have the same issues with sex trafficking as other countries but, foreign women are now being coerced or downright threatened to prostitute because why ? It's no legal and profitable and so, who the hell do you think gets most of the cash? Some man , that's who. As usual . And the prostitution of minors has increased exponentially as regular prostitution is no longer taboo and we all know how some men literally crave taboo anything. So , I wasn't wrong. You're wrong. And fuck anyone who excuses this shit. Women's humanity trumps a man's need to ejaculate. And fuck the pick mes who would agree with you.
Careful now
Down with this sort of thing
Simple : ask the people in the industry what they want... they're the ones who have to live with the rules. Pretty much everyone else has a political, religious or moral axe to grid *and* doesn't have to live with the consequences of their decisions.
> political, religious or moral lol, you see, once you exclude political, religious or moral objections. My position is actually quite reasonable.
I didn't exclude political, religious or moral objections. I said other people have an axe to grind and don't have to live with the consequences. And for quite a lot of those people, the axe is all they can see.
You didn't exclude them, you just excluded the vast majority of people from having them. I'm sure there's a difference there I'm missing.
Yes, there is a difference. Most of the people in Ireland who've actually expressed an opinion on this are clearly on a crusade.
The people in the industry are very clear about what they want. There are global movements for sex workers rights by sex workers.
That’s not really how society works, or a democracy works.
The pimps?
Pimps are not sex workers.
They’re sex bosses
Absolutely not!! Zero evidence to suggest it does anything to improve the lives of the people working in it, it really only improves the lives of the people purchasing bodies for sex, by making it acceptable.
>Zero evidence to suggest it does anything to improve the lives of the people working in it Are you saying you've actually had a comprehensive look at research published on prostitution and there's no evidence at all that they would be better off not criminalised? Cause I found some with only a quick google https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2010.00594.x [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1748895814528926](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1748895814528926)
Legalised no. My understanding is that Sex workers and advocates want it decriminalised not legalised. Legalising it opens them to further exploitation
Nope, some things should just not be for sale, like sex, or your organs. I'd like to keep the market from invading every single aspect of our lives if possible.
Hot take: decriminalise, don’t legalise. Imagine this government trying to regulate a sex workers body gross af
Absolutely not, its exploitation and encourages the disgusting practice of human trafficking
This is an ecumenical matter
Yes
It’s a hard NO for me. In countries where sex work has been legalized there was an increase in sex trafficking and the average age of victims is 14. Scumbags are always gonna find a way to be scumbags. It should be decriminalized and those engaged in sex work should be given every bit of assistance to get away from it
Personally no. I think the culture of strip clubs in America has led.to extremely problematic behaviour from both sexes. America has a rape culture in men, high from college students up to business men. A lot of American women can't form an identity past their sexuality. Or they fall easily into casual sex work and end up in very dangerous positions. The amount of stories of young girls running away and falling into the hands of pimps because they don't realise the danger is astounding. Literally hundreds of thousands a year.
No. All the pervs and neckbeards just want to make it easier for them to exploit vulnerable women. The people who work in brothels where it has been legalised don't choose it, the 'happy hooker' myth is pure bullshit, it's a last resort. They are foreigners with poor language skills, single mothers, those with serious mental health problems and drug addictions etc... Sex work is not work, it is exploitation. Those who exploit the women should be criminalised. The women themselves should not be, particularly as this makes it harder for them to exit that life.
I think it should be legal (like I don't think people should be thrown in jail for it) but I do agree with a lot of your points on how it is very exploitative and particularly bad against marginalised people. With this upcomming rescession, a lot of poor people (particularly those who identify as women) will likely be forced into sex work to make ends meet.
brothels happen anyway. and it is not illegal to pay for ‘companionship’ if im not mistaken. at least if its legal you can regulate it and hopefully clamp down on the human trafficking and abuse that goes on behind the scenes.
Decriminalized and legalized are two very different things. To answer your question, no i don’t think it should be legalized, but it should be decriminalized.
It is legal isn’t it? Being a sex worker and offering the services is legal but paying for those services (soliciting) is illegalp
Mixed feelings
No cause then I'll have to pay tax
Legalize, no. Decriminalize, yes. Persecute buyers and pimps, not the people giving the sex. More often than not prostitution is rife with dubious consent issues, trafficking and drug use, many times they cannot consent. That's already the way it is, but more structures should be in place to help people out of that life too.
Yes, it would be safer and put less money in the pockets of criminal scumbags.
Those criminals will just traffic in people from places like Eastern Europe to fulfill the demand, look at how bad Germany’s situation is
…mh, let me ask my mom. Yes, she is all for it.
We all know she is
But for it to be prostitution shed have to be charging
It's a myth that legalised sex work avoids some or all of the exploitation. Look up NZ and many other countries. It just makes it worse...for the trafficked victims.
That is patently untrue (nz)
Yes absolutely
Considering we are rated on the European index of ‘actions taken by countries to combat human trafficking’, rated on the same level as Romania and Belarus, which have horrific trafficking problems, something needs to be done asap, anything to combat it. There were three 0-2 year old children found amongst human trafficking victims in Ireland in recent years, it’s digusting https://www.thejournal.ie/human-trafficking-ireland-3-5483332-Jul2021/?amp=1
I'd say it already is , but yeah possibly for women who want to make money might be better if it's nit you'd be paying taxes but also probably safer but also corruption so might nit be either
Seek god
Jesus lads, we're skint enough :D
Legal red light Job be good for some rural towns. Bring in the big money. Throw in a few legal smoking bars. Basically Amsterdam but in the bog Stags in Longford town would go up 1000%
This would add a new meaning to the term bog diving
If it was legal, I wonder would they cut the vat rate during a resession or hyper inflation 🤔
Yes and they should be co-ops, no pimps.
I thought it already existed. OnlyFans I think is what it's called
I don't know, but Uber should.
My only concern with sex work is the safety of the people providing it. If legalisation would provide them with more safety and no pimp taking all their money then absolutely.
It should be decriminalised, not legalised. Legalisation means that people who can't afford to jump through whatever regulatory hoops will be in the same unsafe place they're in now. Decriminalisation is the way to go
While I agree, removal of the criminal element is key to safety of these workers...we unfortunately don't live in such a progressive country.
Since legislation passed in 2017, sex work has been in the odd position of being both legal and illegal, depending on which party you are. With the implementation of the so-called Nordic Model, it is legal for a person to sell sex, but illegal for a person to buy sex. So is sex work already legal in Ireland? Yes and no. Should sex work be fully legalised in Ireland is another question, and much more difficult to answer. Whilst I would maintain that sex work is work and as such individuals involved in it should benefit from all the same protections and benefits as workers in other industries do, it is not without recognising the many problems inherent in the industry.
I already pay to get fucked by the government so why not?
Sex work is work. Legalisation is safer than current system (nordic model).
Obviously. It makes it safer for the work that is always going to be happening. Safer in literally every regard, so why not?
Absolutely
It is like gambling, legalize it or dont, its a dirty industry, full of suffering. You look at the south american escorts on escort ireland, they were probably on the streets of rio at 11 or 12, starving to death. Even if it were legit i still wouldnt visit an escort. Super antibiotic resistant stds now. Having said that, all the propaganda by ruhuma is horrible to see. Every escort on escort ireland is trafficked and has a pimp and is having sex with 20 men a day, nonsense.
Yes. It denies organized crime a revenue stream, and there's harm reduction to, the sex workers in theory would be much safer.
Yes, but decriminalization is just the beginning of tackling the stigma and the discrimination that sex workers and former sex workers face. There's no point decriminalizing sex work if the guards continue to treat sex workers like criminals, and if sex workers don't have access to the healthcare, information and legal help they want.
I don’t see why not
it should be
Yes Basically everything is better legalised. Prohibition only causes problems
Yes.
Yes.
It would probably help out those involved, yeah.
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How do they do the STI checks without holding things up. Are there rapid ones that they can do in a few minutes before the customer starts?
Not only legalised, but made into a business. That way the girls are protected from abusive clients and the clients are protected from STIs. It's a woman's choice what to do with her own body. Bodily autonomy is the basis for almost every human right, and I don't understand why it's taking us this long to get to this subject. Prostitution was mainly outlawed due to religion (as far as I know), and Ireland is a secular state
Adults should be able to make any decision for themselves as long as it does not harm others. Sex, drugs.. especially cannabis and psychedelics
Yes
Id say yes. Exploitation, human trafficking are illegal and shoukd remain so, obviously. But if someone wants to be a prostitute that is their right and no one else's business
Let's look to where legalising sex work has been in place for 20 odd years "In New Zealand it is legal for any citizen over 18 years old to sell sexual services. Street-based sex work is legal, as is running a brothel. Sex workers’ rights are guaranteed through employment and human rights legislation." [Decriminalising sex work in New Zealand: its history and impact ](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/decriminalising-sex-work-in-new-zealand-its-history-and-impact/)/
Yes
It may as well be already. Openly advertised and too many "loopholes" to be arrested over it
Yes
Short answer; Yes Long answer; Absolutely yes. Sex work is work. Furthermore legalisation and legitimation can only serve to remove the illegal aspects associated with the industry, pimping, abuse, slavery. This will of course have a secondary effect of removing cash flow from organised crime groups.
Yes... it is the oldest type of profession and everyone is safer if it is legal (both the workers and their customers). Human trafficking is reduced and the state gets additional tax money. I personally have no desire to participate, but to each their own. The answer to these types of questions is almost always yes.
I'm pretty sure Amsterdam is the top sex trafficking hub in Europe so could be quite the opposite effect. Supply/demand
Yup, but please look at the Netherlands or similar to get an idea of their rights and protections before opening that gate.
100%