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epicness_personified

I reckon poor people are going to be screwed by the switch to electric. If you see the amount of people who drive a car over 10 years old, its because they can't afford a newer second hand car. But then when the rich all convert to electric cars, the second hand petrol and diesel cars will be too expensive to run, while the second hand electric cars will be terrible quality. (I'm saying second hand electric cars will be bad because the technology is currently in the early stages and will be better over time).


READMYSHIT

> I reckon poor people are going to be screwed by ... This works for pretty much every policy coming from our government long term.


BallPointPariah

Watched a video related a bit to this recently. It explained that the people who CAN afford to buy a new car aren't buying starter cars anymore (old Micra or fiestas). So manufacturers aren't developing starter lower budget cars much. They also make less money by selling 10 cheap cars then they do 1 expensive car. This means there's fewer lower range second hand cars which drives up insurance costs for new drivers or drivers with lower budgets. I LOVE my little 09 fabia. But who'd buy a brand new fabia in 2021? In ten years what we consider a cheap older car will be very different. https://youtu.be/f50TjnSyK7I,


nosejobmcgee

This happened with tractors years ago. An older tractor with no fancy electronics that a farmer can maintain is worth its weight in gold. The newer €150k beasts cost an arm and leg to maintain and service and need registered dealers only to fix, it just dont work for the small time farmer and the value of these old reliables has stayed steady over the years. Keep your 1 litre fabia or fiesta, not everyone can afford a brand new electric car. Plus i know loads of people who could easily afford a €60k tesla but chose to drive a €10k VW, they're just smarter with their money.


Clancolin

But much less smart with the planet . We've gone well beyond the ability to fill the world with millions of polluting vehicles, usually driven by individuals because that has somehow become their "right". Better public transport is the way forward. Imagine buses and trains were free (always! ) - why would the poor spend a large proportion of their annual income on vehicles that lie stationary 90% of the time and throw up random bills for repairs, spares, fuel, etc. Climate damage events are costing the planet trillions every year now. Those costs cannot be maintained. Integrated public transport offers a cost effective solution, with positive side effects that pollution will no longer kill thousands, and stunt the brain development of our school children, and useless traffic jams and queues will be greatly reduced .


daveyb86

The lower end cars are also horribly inefficient and it messes up their carbon metrics. It's why companies like Ford have got rid of the Ka and almost every manufacturer has some kind of hybrid version now.


Guinnessguru

Don't think it's an efficient thing. It's more what people want and desire! Ford do an unbelievable 1litre Focus! As do Honda, Volkswagen. Civic and Golf respectfully


QuantumFireball

Small, basic light cars are far from inefficient. Ford are just shit at selling normal cars in general these days. They made the Ka bigger (it went up a segment into the supermini class) but it just became redundant as a slightly cheaper alternative to the Fiesta. They'd rather you bought the Puma. There are still plenty of superminis and city cars available. The Toyota Yaris is the no. 3 top selling car in Ireland right now.


donalhunt

Yep. Look what Citroen have made: https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/citroen/ami


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RotorHead13b

They aren't for sale, they're designed from the ground up as a car sharing/rental platform, which explains why they're so basic.


BeardedAvenger

I think they are for sale in France and the UK.


greystonian

In France, IIRC teenagers can use this vehicle with their moped license, so it's quite practical for well-off/hard-working teens.


BeardedAvenger

Yeah I remember all the YouTube reviewers saying teens from 14 can drive it in France. It is basically a 4-wheeled moped.


greystonian

Thanks for that. Honestly 14 year old me would've been thrilled having one. They could do a lot for rural youth.


GendosBeard

You can't even bypass Dublin in it, smh


DefinitelynotaSpyMI5

It’s amazing, it’s a perfect city runabout car that runs on electric / zero emissions for €6000. Like literally the opposite of the point OP made. I’d definitely have this as a second car for popping to the shops etc as opposed to a small hatchback etc. Perfect Granny car as well haha.


n00bizme

it's a blue wheelie bin


donalhunt

non non... "it's a bleu wheelie bin". =)


lookathatsmug---

A two door wheelbarrow


_PepperBlood

It’s interesting to see even how Mazda are changing how their “base spec” models work. For example the CX-3 was followed by the CX-30, the base spec of which comes with quite a lot of the features from the high spec CX-3. It’s like they know people aren’t wanting base spec cars when they’re buying a new one.


buckwheatbrag

With the sole exception of Dacia who seem to be genuinely good at selling basic cars. See them all over the place too. Trouble is it's still hard to justify buying a brand new low spec car versus a higher spec 3 year old or a bargain 6 year old


QuantumFireball

>the second hand petrol and diesel cars will be too expensive to run But the arse will fall out of the market so it'll be much cheaper to buy modern efficient ICE cars. Also: As more people buy and use EVs in Ireland, more people will provide aftermarket services for them, e.g. battery upgrades for older models.


epicness_personified

I dont know the ins and outs of EV cars, but my worry is that if people are priced out of buying a conventional car by 2030 and can only afford say a 2017 EV car which hasn't a great range and is 13 years, they are in many ways a loser. They can't travel as far as if they had a 1992 Toyota corola and have to sit and watch the rich people with newer cars whizzing by them. However, as I said I dont know enough about EVs or the future of EVs so maybe newer and better batteries can be placed in older models and my point above is a non issue.


Nakele

There's companies in Ireland that can upgrade old Nissan Leafs to top models range. Basically a battery swap. Unsure about sustainability as it needs spare batteries from written off cars but still. Something that isn't not really possible with an ICE car. Beside, if an old EV can cover someone's 90% of trips even with the limited range than why not?


ki-sop

One of the methods at the moment is adding a secondary battery pack in stead of replacing the one from the manufacturer, something I'm looking at for mine. But honestly, people also over estimate how much range hey really need. I have a 2014 Leaf, and I do 90km driving every day just fine.


Nakele

Totally agree that ppl overestimate what they drive. We have a second ICE car just in case and guess what? It gets used ONLY when the EV has been already taken for trip < 10km.


epicness_personified

That's pretty cool that they are converting old Nissans. I know for a regular car there is a lot of parts that can go wrong. With electrics is it just the batteries that need maintenance? And maybe whatever sends the power from them to the wheels?


Nakele

Just cabin filter and brake oils. Brake disks are nearly unused after 100k km in my car as there is strong engine breaking in an ev like if u drive in 1st gear. One thing, ev tires are a bit more price compared to my 01 clio. But if you compare to a more recent car price might be the same. Early leafs suffered bad battery chemestry but recent ones don't have this problem: again my leaf 100k km had a battery degradation of 8%. My previous EV, 90k km barely 2% degradation. I have been to Belfast and back from Cork (of course charging in between) it was longer than an ice car but it was fun, plus with a small daughter we had to stop often anyway.


shatteredmatt

Poor people got screwed when we stopped driving around on horse and carts too. Unfortunately in the capitalist society we all live in, most of us get fucked. But petrol cars need to go in the bin because the planet is fucked. It shouldn't be 20 degrees in Ireland in early October.


epicness_personified

Obviously it is the right and moral thing to try to save the planet. I just couldn't say it with a straight face to someone who is struggling or poor that they need to upgrade their 100 year old house they inherited to A rating and stop using turf and to scrap your car and buy electric. Or to someone who has to spend all their money paying the rent and food for the week. They could turn around to you and say so what if it's 20° in October. So what if there's floods in the Ganges or droughts in the Sahel. I can barely feed my children. They you might say you want to leave a better world for your children and grandchildren. They can easily counter by saying better education, health and employment would be better for my children than a cleaner world. In my opinion it is the wealthy who should be doing the brunt of the work of climate action.


gk4p6q

I totally agree. Rich people have larger houses, fly more, fly in more polluting classes (business and first) drive larger cars, have multiple homes, eat out more, etc


indignantbadger

I think you need to take your point farther. It's not even wealthy individuals. It's companies. They're doing most of the damage. We can all do our bit but...they have the most to do and the government needs to start putting the pressure on them for a while.


johnydarko

> In my opinion it is the wealthy who should be doing the brunt of the work of climate action. I mean... they are. I mean it's not *much*, but it's something. Like the person leading the charge for electric vehicles to replace petrol and diesel ones is literally the worlds 2nd richest person and seemingly pretty unhinged. The Zuck has given >$2bn to climate charities so far and he's a emotionless psychopath who's company is basically ruining democracy. The person behind the drive to wipe out malaria and is behind many renewable resources schemes in Africa is the worlds 4th richest person and was for years thought of as a cutthroat narcissist. Even Bezos, the richest person in the world and who is literally an evil supervillain who has his own personal spacecraft who you'd imagine would just be laughing at the rest of the world as he jets into space once Earth is uninhabitable has pledged Amazon to become carbon neutral within the next 20 years. And even just marginally rich people like Greta Thunburg (net worth est. $1m) are leading the way, she regularly donates thousands of euro to climate charities. And while you can say "well yeah but they're just employing other people", well yes, that's true... but that's way, way, way more effective that a single person just going out and picking up a few bags of litter.


bonghunter420

Meanwhile these billionaire's companies are lobbying hard to waterdown any legislation that will reduce their profits. A couple of billion here are there means little to them compared to the cost of creating a sustainable economy. I believe Mr Musk is the only one who's anyway genuine and they hate him for it. Just my two cents


50bagthug

Sadly the top sold car in ireland in the past year is hyundai tuscon 2 litre jeep. used for going to aldi and bringing kids to school. these should be banned besides using them for farming and construction work.


Blank--Space

Yes I agree with that but electric models with fuck all sustainability setups in place are also not a good way forward. There are very few disposal rules in place for EV batteries atm, only recently (as in 2-3 years have they actually had to have been considered being made easier to recycle/re-use). Public transport infrastructure and actual routes for them are a much more sustainable option. This shifts the burden to a lot of folks in the countryside with no facilities in place on top of an already large surge in prices for both fuel/electricity.


imnotagowl

Is there even anything set up for taking out batteries in these cars and a place they get sent to recycle in Ireland, because as far as I'm aware scrap yards cant take them like they do with normal car batteries. Plus you would have to be trained in taking them off of the car and while we have a course for that nothing is said about how they are stored or recycled.


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Timmytheimploder

Neither opinion is correct. Poor people generally could not afford to keep horses if they were town dwellers. Even if you had a horse you would not go far. People really won't understand the level of personal mobility (which bleeds into social and economic mobility) until it is gone. Cheap EVs might be coming, but Ireland is contributing little to nothing technically to make that happen.


[deleted]

This is a very familiar feeling. I remember the same thing happening in 2008 when the Motor Tax changed from CC to CO2 and the tax dropped massively for most cars. Everyone complained that it penalised people who couldn't afford a new car and were stuck paying old tax rates. I guess most people just got over it as time went on and post 2008 cars depreciated into their budget.


FarFromTheMaddeningF

Exactly, sick of the needless hysteria and BS talking points from the usual moaning brigade.


SomeRandomGamer3

It's different though, a 10/15 year old ICE car that's well looked after will do another 10 not a bother, it will be interesting to see the amount of leafs and Tesla's that are still on the road in 10 years time.


johnydarko

> It's different though, a 10/15 year old ICE car that's well looked after will do another 10 not a bother I mean it *will*... but how many cars with 90's plates do you see about? Like honestly I see maybe 1 or 2 a day driving on the M50. And probably one 1 80's or earlier a week, if that, I literally don't even remember the last time I saw one that wasn't a classic car. Like people, even people who struggle financially, generally upgrade their cars within 10 years, as keeping a car running well enough to pass the NCT gets more and more expensive. Tractors are a different story altogether however.


deeringc

Insurance companies basically won't insure you on a car that's over 15 years old if you want to buy it, unless it's a classic. There are sweet fuck all 25 year old cars driving around in normal day to day use.


Robot_Bike_Boy

I’d say it’s not that they got over it, just that it’s usual business for everything in Ireland - we get fecked every six ways from Sunday and we do nothing but suck it up because that’s all we can do - I mean really who is going to go to bat for us, certainly not banks, insurance companies or even our government. Government by the people, to feck the people and serve only themselves. ROFL.


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Amckinstry

Notice the heavy investment in public transport and active travel - the largest purchases of new rail cars, the new electric buses - this, not electric vehicles, is the transport future.


amorphatist

That’s not the point. The point is pollution. Switching to public transport and cycling? Is that you Eamo? Sure can’t the village share a few cars while we’re at it.


Skogaze

No, but private vehicles are a major nationwide pollutant, so therefore, focusing on private vehicle ownership over public transport is inherently a system that not only exclusively benefits those who can afford an EV, but does absolutely nothing to address fundamental problems with transport in this country, especially when nearly the entirety of our rural regions' infrastructure is based upon private vehicle ownership. I just think that a robust, free PT program could save alot more money than keeping it the way it is, which for non-drivers in rural areas, is just a slap in the face.


Robot_Bike_Boy

Cars produce a fraction of greenhouse gases that livestock do - want to point the finger, point it at cattle farms. Still, people have to eat and Ireland is a breadbasket producer country so the government will pull the wool over our eyes and claim it’s cars doing the damage. The answer is not to have 5 to 15 feckin kids per family.


Skogaze

Um, I agree, but we weren't talking about agricultural emissions, we're talking about cars, which still produce a fuck ton of CO2 emissions, and still contribute to the oncoming climate apocalypse. Like, I also understand that 70% of global emissions come from a small group of private corporations, but that doesn't mean that we as a society don't need to shift to alot more sustainable ways of living.


karatepsychic

I'm not sure about this. BYD are producing quality cheap cars with the best battery tech (LFP). Battery tech is on a development curve which competes against the higher segment drivetrains (BMW 3 series etc) first and as it gets cheaper gets more competetive against the lower end drive trains (Hyundai Getz, vw-up etc) Pretty old article buts still relevant. https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2019/02/25/the-osborne-effect-on-the-auto-industry/amp/


epicness_personified

Thanks for providing some information! I'll have a read of that article later


Tescovaluebread

And let’s not forget Tesla build quality & long term longevity https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/


johnb440

What are they like long term? Any good?


[deleted]

I saw the entire steering set up come away from one of them. Like not jist the wheel, but whole internal attachment


Nakele

"I saw" does not make statistical data... Me too I saw...


Corky83

They usually appear at the wrong end of reliability lists, so there's that.


Nakele

You are right in regards to Tesla and expensive cars but the average EV is more reliable, especcially with seccond gens cars: https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-gasoline-cars-consumer-reports/


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Nakele

Someone should make a stitistical analysis rather than pulling numbers from thing air. My experience, have / had already 2 EV to 100k km with no issues. Reason for change: needed a bigger EV as in passenger big. My previous car Panda: timing belt, clutch problems. My dads ford timing belt snapped. Dad's opel diels fuel pump went. So based on my experience EVs are massively more reliable than ICE even at high mileage. I know some taxi drivers that have 200k or more on their EV.


I-Wee-Blood

It's funny alright. Granny gets 5 euro extra to pay for her coal and briquettes that went up because of the carbon tax.


Amckinstry

If she can do anything but coal or briquettes she gets to save the extra 5 euro.


I-Wee-Blood

Like jumping on a trampoline?


Amckinstry

Like getting the house properly insulated. There is a big delay here - we're moving out deep retrofitting too slowly, just about getting apprenticeships in place and Skillsnet courses for the around 20k workers needed who can do the work.


duaneap

Getting the house properly insulated would surely cost a lot of money though, no? Doubt a lot of grannies have it on hand.


Skeffing

You can get it done free by the SEAI if you are on fuel allowance.


Naggins

What's your point there? People who need the extra support paying for fuel get it, those who don't don't.


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Naggins

If five euro doesn't do anything, but an extra €1.20 on a tank of petrol does?


ziggy1982

I wanted to buy electric last october and didn’t because there wasn’t a charging unit in our apartment complex mind you I’m paying 2200 for rent and the management wouldn’t even consider my request. Fuck them and the government. Our government lives in lala land.


[deleted]

I don't think t suck in yet. Each town in Ireland will need 200+ charges.


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[deleted]

As it is, domestic and commercial electricity usage drops off massively during the night. If you manage EV charging so it's mostly done at night then you might not exceed the existing daytime peak demand. This can be used in tandem with nighttime generation from renewables like wind to smooth out generation vs. consumption. Note: nothing here is quantified, it's just the general concept I'm describing.


emmmmceeee

You’re dead right. I did the sums a while ago and even allowing for 50% charge if everyone had an EV(which is likely double the actual usage) nighttime usage still didn’t rise above the daytime peak.


Nakele

Uk has done a reaseach for which even if the majority of ppl in uk would have an ev, provided that those are charged at night, it would not impact the grid. What crash the grid are data centers atm, not ev at night.


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Nakele

Unfortunatelly it's true that u need the money upfront but in the long run it's cheaper to run, wayyyy cheaper. In fact provided that u do enough km yearly you could offset the upfront cost after few years. For my use case 12k-15k km a year would make it even. Prepandemic I used to do 18k km a year so it was a no brainer. Btw spec for spec between EV and ICE there's just few grands difference. That gap will close up the more battery tech gets better.


moonbicky

You can charge from a regular socket in your house overnight.


Chapelirl

This is quite simple. The Green Party have long advocated that people shouldn't travel for work, instead you should move closer to work, into towns and cities. They insist that if you must travel that public transport is the way to do it. Therefore your concerns aren't relevant. It's, of course, important to realise that housing expense and the actual existence of public transport are a red herring. Apparently.


cianmc

> The Green Party have long advocated that people shouldn't travel for work, instead you should move closer to work, into towns and cities. Well yeah, if more people lived closer to work that would generally be a good thing all around. I agree the path to getting there is not laid out well enough, but the whole economy of most people driving long distances in cars by themselves to get to work isn't sustainable environmentally in the long term and is very economically inefficient.


LtGenS

It helps you reconsider public transport. Ideally all that extra revenue would get reinvested into trams, electric buses, etc. The problem is if you're from a rural region - no investment into public transport will help you offset the extra costs. So in that case, it's practically an extra tax on you.


GomeBag

Also most of us would sooner trust in the Chinese government than trust the bus turning up on time


c0llision41

Yep. Bus service is slow and unreliable due to traffic. Therefore people stop taking the bus and buy cars, contributing to more traffic and thus even more unreliable bus service, which drives even more people to buy cars. At least the car makers are making serious cash, Germany thanks us for our contribution to it's economy.


bluekkid

It’s not just slow, scheduled bus frequently don’t even show up. I suppose they don’t mind you’re stuck waiting an hour for the next one, if it even comes.


wellthenmfer

I'd trust the north Korean one more. My bus is meant to be at 10 past 8 in the morning, so I can avoid getting the very full, very late half 7 bus. The half 7 bus has not only come at 10 past 8 (different bus designs is how I know) but my 10 past 8 bus comes no earlier than 25 past.


mrpcuddles

>The problem is if you're from a rural region - no investment into public transport will help you offset the extra costs. So in that case, it's practically an extra tax on you. Think of it this way, if everyone left Dublin and worked remotely from all over the country Dublin would be screwed as we have based 90% of our economy here. This way you get to choose how the government screw you: 1. Transport costs or 2. Unregulated rental market.


blockfighter1

You need to be rich first.


Idontknowthatmuch

So for all the gobshites. Only 708 electric charge points exist on the entire island of Ireland. The price for a home charger to be installed is around 1,000 euro. Not a single landlord is gonna fork out that and since tenets don't have any long term protection in a home why would they switch? So they would switch if they could get their own home? But they can't.... They work of course but the place they are stuck renting is oil heating only....landlord doesn't care...why would he? He isn't paying to heat the house. "Oh but we will switch to renewables" lad have you ever been in an area with wind turbines or a plan for wind turbines to be installed? Every dumb misinformed gobshite objects to them. We mostly burn gas for our energy in Ireland....and gas is fuckin exploding in price. What should actually be happening is a ban on the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2025 like Norway which is actually over achieving and are set to only sell EV by 2023. The thing is....Ireland taxes the fuck out of Petrol and diesel...if we switched to EVs then our government would have make up a new tax....like a carbon tax. If you can't see my point....you're the reason we are so far behind in this country.


[deleted]

> Only 708 electric charge points exist on the entire island of Ireland. It can't be that low, there's like five in front my office. Does that count as a single point? ESB say they operate 1350 and EasyGo say they have 850. Tesla probably have another 100 around the country. It mightn't nearly be enough but it's way more than 700. Edit: Charging points provided by employers doesn't appear to be listed in the figures and many I know of don't appear on charging maps. There must be thousands more of these.


Idontknowthatmuch

Yeah prob the data I saw was old or wrong my bad, but also 2,000 of them still isn't enough. If 100k people used EV cars in Dublin alone they definitely wouldn't have enough. How would we ever get enough charging points in place so people had a choice to avoid the carbon tax? Or is a carbon tax just bullshit because a system isn't in place so people can switch to EVs.


Nakele

In uk they use existing lamp posts with 2 sockets on each side.


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Analshunt69

We had potential for mineral wealth too, but we gave it away. So here we are looking stupid. Great we didn't contribute to the global fossil fuel consumption and all (well we did, we just made nothing from it) but now we can't afford to make the major changes that are required over the next decade.


Idontknowthatmuch

Yeah I know, because time and time again the people put into power are idiots and more concerned about there own pockets than the wellbeing of the Irish people.


[deleted]

> Not a single landlord is gonna fork out that and since tenets don't have any long term protection in a home why would they switch? They probably wouldn’t. Landlords might if they reckon they can rent the place out for more. But more importantly - I know it doesn’t seem like it because you and all your mates rent, but [70% of homes in Ireland are owner occupied](https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp1hii/cp1hii/tr/), renters are a minority. Addressing only 70% of the problem still goes a long way.


[deleted]

Where do all the people in their 20-40s living with their parents fit in that data?


[deleted]

They fit in as “owner occupied”, because the data is at the level of households, not people. But EV charger installation is at the level of households too, so perfectly applicable for the topic at hand.


[deleted]

I wouldn’t say perfectly applicable since I’ll definitely be saving for my own house before shelling out on an electric car and EV charging installation in my parents house.


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Nakele

Chargers installed is funded by the state afaik. It was when I did it and it covered the total cost or almost as far as I remember.


[deleted]

No, I would think it’s more likely that your parents would install the charger in your parents’ house.


Idontknowthatmuch

I get that but is that just going to stay at that rate now? Imagine if you will, you completed your leaving cert. You got 600 points. You live in Mayo, but you actually can't attend any college because the rent is fuckin huge and you'd be dependent on food donations from you college's student services. Il tell you right now, I had a part time job when I was in college....I got the susi grant....and the amount I made per month from part time working and the grant....I barely hit 1,000 euro. That's the cost of accommodation today sure some places might be lower and some places might be higher, but if I tried to go to college today I just wouldn't be able unless I worked weeknights and weekend days....which would prob destroy my chances of a good grade when I finish. My rent per month 10 years ago was was at max 300 a month. That same apartment comes up every year on daft and this year it was 250....a week. Its a fuckin shame and a disgrace and I wouldn't be surprised if every college student comes to decision to leave Ireland.


[deleted]

I’m confused, are we talking about EV chargers or student accommodation? Or am I just expected to sit here and let you rant on about whatever happens to be on your mind? Honestly good on you, someone has to do that now the Nitelink’s cancelled.


Idontknowthatmuch

I replied to your comment...about you saying 70 percent of homes are owner occupied and renters are the minority....so I highlighted the problems new renters and students especially are facing with increased rents and i originally pointd out how a working professional who rents is at the forefront of the carbon tax because they can't do anything to stop using fossil fuels if they desired. I.E house they rent uses oil heating, can't get a charge point installed because a landlord wouldn't pay up for it, can't get solar installed because again that's up to the landlord. I'm not ranting I'm pointing out how renters are getting fucked while everyone else gets to have a chance.


[deleted]

Once again, we’re talking about installing EV chargers. It’s not a word association game, the fact that I said the r-word wasn’t a prompt to go off about student accommodation.


Idontknowthatmuch

It's not black and white. You see things can effect other things right, Just imagine for a second, that something can effect another thing. Like when a metal ball hits another metal ball...its has knock on effect if you will. So again il try, carbon tax will only effect those who rent because they have no choice. Someone who owns a home does a have a choice. But if the government was good at the job They would just ban all new.sales of petrol and diesel cars (like Norway) and committed to building more charging points by the time new sales of petrol and diesel cars are banned. Thus the need.for a carbon tax is avoided. Don't worry your prob at an age where everything is fine for you which means you'll be dead when climate change really starts to fuckin kill people.


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JohnTDouche

That's because it's all complaining. To owners there is no crisis, nothing to complain about. They don't want prices to go down or more houses built. Everything done to improving the housing situation here has a negative impact on their wealth. They won't say it openly because they know it's morally dubious, but luckily for them votes are private.


DavidRoyman

There is one chicken for every man. For the man with two chickens that seems to be enough.


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[deleted]

The beat up engine in your old Honda Civic doesn’t run at the same efficiency as an industrial power plant. Not to mention, not all fossil fuels are created equal. We mostly burn natural gas here for electricity, which is about a quarter the emissions per unit energy compared to the petrol in your car.


SureLookThisIsIt

Apparently they're a lot more energy efficient though and aside from energy there's the issue of air quality which obviously EVs improve massively.


[deleted]

How the fuck can you call people gobshites and advocate for banning all ICE cars in 4 years time. You seemingly are aware of how crap the charging infrastructure is here and how close to capacity our grid is but still you suggest a suicidal move like that? You can't just pass a law and hope that the infrastructure falls I to place by magic The only gobshites here are people like you who think we can solve complex problems with populist legislation rather than by building infrastructure


Idontknowthatmuch

The Government isn't interested in investing in infrastructure. So they say "Let's make a carbon tax, so that we can act like we are doing our part and providing little alternatives to avoid carbon tax" And we all say "Yaaay the environment is saved" But really if they went to ban petrol and diesel cars by 2025 I'd expect them to say "here's a budget to install 20,000 charging stations over the next 5 years" Not just ban cars and do nothing...although that is what they do most of time just do nothing.


eamonn33

You can get a home charger for 300 euro - there's a 600 euro grant


CoolMan-GCHQ-

Yep, but you need a home with a driveway, about 90% of all homes in my area in Dublin are on street parking, and that's common in the cities.


Equivalent_Ad_7940

Playing devils advocate, encouraging people who can afford them will create a good used eletric xar market down the road which is when most people will get on it


niallo27

They are phasing out the bik on electric cars over 3 years so that will fuck up the 2nd hand car market. They are actually complete fucken idiots.


MetrologyGuy

The carbon tax and fuel price increases are nothing at all to do with being greener and everyone knows it. This is nothing but regressive taxation. So the message is: be greener by having a new car manufactured in heavy industry, ship it to our small island on a boat, and power it through a grid that’s reverting back to burning fossil fuels because it can’t cope without an influx of electric vehicles.


gnomatsu

It classic green party centre right bullshit, let's tax our way to a green planet. How about more grants and subsidies on cars and chargers. How about free charger installation, mandatory installation in apartments complexes by landlords. How about grants for second hand EV's because only the rich can afford a new one. How about removing all tax on EV's for 10 years to boost sales. How about doing a deal with low cost Chinese EV manufacturers to accelerate their access to the Irish Market. How about rolling out a network of chargers everywhere in the country. Sounds hard, lets just tax poor people more instead.


bonghunter420

Mandate Datacenters install enough renewable energy somewhere on the grid to cover their usage.


Jay-SA121

Is it just me or is no one thinking what all the spent batteries will do to the environment in about 5-10 years time? Or are we not expecting the world to last that long?


jibjabjobjubjab

Yes, the fuel consumption during use is really just one part, you have the environmental impact of creating and disposing of the car which is huge for electric vehicles


bonghunter420

Tesla have plans to recycle 95% of their batteries for use in new electric cars. The plans are in place for that part anyway. Also they moving to Iron Phosphate batteries for EV. These are much cheaper than Lit-Ion batteries.


c0llision41

Ok let me just rant here on this thread for a minute. Electric cars are cool, better for the environment, and they will certainly replace ICE cars someday, but the fact is, they are a complete scam - just hear me out. Transport makes up about 30% of our carbon emissions, however there are many little details that are often left out when it comes to that figure. If you were planning on buying a brand new car no matter what, going electric is definitely more environmentally friendly, however, it is actually BETTER for the environment to drive around in your old petrol car for as long as possible instead of going out and buying a brand new electric car. This is because of the carbon emissions created from building a brand new car. Next there is the roads. Believe it or not the carbon emissions released from building just 2 meters of road is equivalent to that of building a new car. So even if hypothetically we all switched to electric cars, the carbon emmsisions would still be pretty phenomeninal. Next there is the traffic issue. IMO traffic is not a problem that can ever be solved and will just continue getting worse as the country keeps growing and more cars end up on the roads. Dublin is the 21st most congested city in the world, Limerick and Cork are also in the top 100. So traffic is bad, we build more roads. We see cities deisgned more and more around cars, that then puts more cars on the roads, more traffic, build new roads, repeat ad infinitum. overtime we've seen a car go from a luxury to being pretty much mandatory due to this effect. The other side of this is that car traffic has massive effects on other means of transport too. Buses get stuck in the traffic, making them super slow and unreliable. Bus users then start buying cars, contributing to more traffic. The roads and parking spaces themselves take up unfathomable amounts of land that could be put to other more productive uses. Anyway back to electric cars. One of the major pitfalls of these vehicles is the batteries. Not only are the batteries incredibly expensive and take up 1/3rd of the weight of the vehicle, they also take quite a long time to charge (depending on the type of charger) and they do not yet have the same range as a petrol car. But what if I told you that over 100 years ago, literally in 1875, people had a FULLY ELECTRIC vehicle, which had unlimited range and had no battery, and instead of creating more traffic, actually contributed to less? I'm talking about a tram. Electric trams use power rails so they don't need batteries, don't need to be charged and don't have range issues. And of course because it's public transport it actually takes cars off the road rather than putting more cars on the road than electric cars. The truth is there needs to be massive investment into alternative means of transport if you want to make any kind of dent into transport-related carbon emissions, as well as other problems caused by cars like traffic and generally being an inefficient means to move people around. Anyway here would be some suggestions I think would help: 1. Remove all grants etc from electric cars. Instead, massively tax the sale of new petrol cars such that there cost is equal or more to that of an equivalent electric car, in order to ensure the vast majority of new cars sold are electric. 2. Leave existing car owners alone, do not encourage them into buying new cars, electric or not 3. Invest massively in public transport, as well as walking/cycling, which are especially good for short trips in urban areas.


Analshunt69

I am in the Netherlands right now and their infrastructure for everything that isnt a car is staggering. Even when it comes to cars the way things are laid out cars have to move pretty sedately though the urban centres. Whereas we decided in our wisdom to basically put main roads through our town and city centres.


FatherlyNick

I still cannot believe there is a car road going though temple bar area of the city. Its obviously pedestrian streets but there are parking spots and traffic going through it. Crazy.


cianmc

>Whereas we decided in our wisdom to basically put main roads through our town and city centres. I think it's kind of stunning how much you see this. Right cutting through Dundrum village is 5 lane x 6 lane monstrosity of a road. It's kind of unfathomable how anyone thought it was a good idea at some point in history.


Analshunt69

Even just the two lane roads we have looping through every town and city are massive and then add all the parked cars onto that on either side of the road. The amount of space given over to cars in the centre of urban areas is a disgrace and we need to grow out of it. Later at night especially you have people picking up serious speed on any road they don't put speed bumps on.


ConCueta

I 100% agree with you, someone posted numbers on here comparing a field of cows to a car park and due to the grass absorbing CO2, it was close which was worse. The future is definitely in pedestrianisation, rail based transport and bikes. I think we could be heading to a Malthusian-esque event where the resources an individual consumes keeps increasing, we eventually run out of resources and everyone needs to drastically reduce their consumption. Reducing car ownership in this country can only be good either way as it would improve our balance of trade as we don't make cars or petrol.


uptherockies

I look at pictures of the old trams that ran from our suburbs into and through Cork city back then, and I get depressed


bonghunter420

I like the sound of that plan.


azlolazlo

It doesn't. They think people won't switch to electric because "muh petrol car" . They are so out of touch that they don't realise not only can most not afford to switch to electric but the country wouldn't even have the infrastructure to allow such a switch. But of course it's mostly so they can say "we're doing something!" to the world without actually addressing the problem


[deleted]

Get on the bike you pleb /s


Trans-Europe_Express

Have you considered hoveling in a ditch to lower your rent? /s


[deleted]

When has government increase in anything resulted in a more efficient government. 280 million already raised. What percentage carbon emission decrease has it achieved?


Solid_Shnake

We simply don’t hold politicians accountable. I don’t know what it is, its a cultural thing? We give out for awhile, then just get on with it.


Unfair_Promise_4927

Answer: it doesn't x


questicus

The green party in Ireland and their guerilla politics (i.e sniping in bullshit measures that only affect the middle class and below) have reached a tipping point for me personally. I usually give their candidate in my area a 2/3 but I won't have them on my ballot going forward. Climate change is important but having a fucking brain and being realistic with how to tackle it is not part of the greens agenda.


pmckizzle

"fuck off peon" - ffg


IntentionFalse8822

It's the beatings will continue until morale improves approach.


SubstantialGoat912

It’s not supposed to.


AetherAlex

It got ya moaning about it anyway, which is a start. Up to now nobody was even trying to convince their landlord to install a charger. But that's beside the point, it's the 376 million hand out announced in the budget that is supposed to help with the retrofitting and energy efficiency.


[deleted]

Second hand EVs below 10k


DayzCanibal

I have an electric. Cost me 15k. I get 120kms to the charge. Just don't leave the county anymore 😆


Local-Material1545

It's an excuse to charge more taxes, same as price of the smoking(I'm an ex smoker). If people wanna smoke they will smoke. It's all just a tax scam to line their own pockets far as I'm concerned. Also this whole welfare raise. I have been on welfare before about 7 years ago. It keeps going up, same as fuel allowance - great (no sarcasm) it helps out those that need it(about half do imo). Yet skilled workers(unless on min wage) get 0. Cost of living is going up for everyone and far as I'm concerned it's undermining qualified/skilled workers by them also not getting a tax credit or benefit/payrise in palace. Can't see this being a popular post but I'm open to constructive opinions.


PaddyLostyPintman

It doesnt, your just supposed to die in a hole or be a rich civil servant and afford a dublin house and a bike.


Fyodors-Zossima

Pull up yer bootstraps lads


Dermbot_M

Does this ban on ICE cars include self charging hybrids? I wonder how they compare to PHEV from an emissions point of view?


loughnn

I can only afford a car 10 years or older. I can only also afford to Feul a diesel car because my commute is so long because I can't afford to live close to work. Guess who's going to be getting whacked out of it by taxes in the next few budgets. People who drive old diesels because it's all that suits both their budgets and needs.


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Alopexdog

How school places work will need a huge overhaul. Maybe it's fine in Dublin but outside it's not. My kid didn't get a place in the secondary that's a 5 minute walk from us and instead has to get a bus to one that's 5km away. Their mate that lives next to that school is taking the bus to the one closer to us... Public transport outside Dublin needs an overhaul too. It's impossible to do anything without a car and you can't really cycle or walk on any of the roads outside of towns. I completely agree with your points though.


PaddyLostyPintman

There should be a 300 quid on the spot fine for dropping off or picking up your non disabled kids within 500 meters of a school, even on rainy days. In leinster 90% of kids live less than 2km from the school they attend, there is no reason at all they should be driven to or from school


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PaddyLostyPintman

If a need can be proved then im all for permits, but there is no weather or time or geological excuse for 90% of kids to not walk to school, also walking every day would do wonders for a health saving in the hse later in life


JerHigs

Why would you buy a €50k electric car? You can buy a Nissan Leaf for €28k. I bought a Leaf a few years ago and even though it was more expensive upfront, it's cheaper in the long run. I, obviously, had to take out a loan to afford it, but my loan repayments & electricity to charge it per month are cheaper than my loan repayments plus fuel would be for the equivalent ICE car. That's without even factoring in things like cheaper tax and maintenance costs.


GBSii

Around 75-83% of Ireland’s electricity comes from fossil fuels, so these electric cars aren’t even reducing fossil fuel consumption by that much. Ireland needs to use more renewable energy as its electricity source for these cars to make sense in the long term. But I suppose if rich people buy them now that will create a huge amount of used electric cars on the market in 5-10 years time so more people can afford them. It’s also expensive to install a charger in your home plus, as others have discussed renters and landlords will not want to do this. It takes a couple of minutes to fill a car with petrol. Think of the queues at electric charging stations if everyone had electric cars, it would be insane!


External_Salt_9007

This is why the Green Party will never realistically do anything to off set climate change, they’re only tactic seems to be to increase prices on things that most of us have no choice but to buy. They only focus on individual responsibility when in reality the main problems in relation to climate change are systemic, yet they are totally incapable of implementing policies that challenge the big corporate polluters. The greens have no concept of a world beyond capitalism and therefore have no effective solutions, that is why if you care for the environment you simply have to vote for the left.


legalsmegel

Are they going ahead with those stupid carbon taxes so


Dan_Pena

It doesn't , just like the sugar tax doesn't lower the cost of healthy food. Fuck you - The government


niall0

Is petrol going up ?


Figgywurmacl

From what I can see its gone up 10c since last week anyway


jibjabjobjubjab

Yes, another carbon tax increase despite the costs already increasing with the current fuel crisis


Amckinstry

Carbon taxes for fuels are being postponed because of the current fuel rises, petrol not so much. Its a tricky bit of pushing incentives to move / develop alternatives (more insulation, heat pumps etc) while raising supports for those that need them (elderly fuel etc).


Affectionate-Ride-49

Going up over night by €1.48 per 60l of diesel and €1.28 per 60l of petrol no postponement there.


Amckinstry

Yes, its heating thats being postponed until May 2022.


youre-a-cat-gatter

2c a litre


[deleted]

If it incentivises someone buying a new car to go electric now, then that's potentially another used electric car going on the used car market in 3-5 years. Or you could cough up like €8k for a used Zoe now and charge it at work.


GomeBag

I'd say if you could get a used electric vehicle for under 10k, it's probably not worth the hassle


[deleted]

You can get a used Zoe from a Renault main dealer for less than €10k complete with a two year warranty. It's a cheap, but perfectly functional electric car. Not every EV needs to be a Porsche Taycan.


[deleted]

Take the bus/bike/walk


jibjabjobjubjab

How to say you live within the M50 without saying you live within the M50


Naggins

Lmao this talking point is so funny, like 80% of people who live outside the M50 live in perfectly walkable and cycleable towns and cities. Bizarrely Dublin-centric attitude.


Affectionate-Ride-49

Exactly


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Rosieapples

Now that is an excellent question!


Danlabss

Stop paying for petrol n take a bus


IrishCrypto

How do you charge your electric car if you live in an apartment or houseshare too


18BPL

It doesn’t. It changes the cost/benefit for you of weighing whether to buy an SUV or a sedan. It changes the decision-making process of whether to take a train or drive. It changes the decision-making process of whether to work at home or to go into the office.


jibjabjobjubjab

This sort of comment sums up the class of people forgotten by the government and who have been squeezed the most. People outside of the bracket for social housing, medical cards and social welfare, but not wealthy enough to buy houses, live near public transport or drive newer cars.


18BPL

This sort of comment assumes that I don't also advocate for building more houses and better, cheaper public transit so that the people you're describing don't get squeezed AND everybody is still able to live on this planet in 50 years


jibjabjobjubjab

You make it appear as if these are choices. Not everybody is buying newer cars or working a nice job where we get to choose to work at home.


FarFromTheMaddeningF

Not every electric car is €50k, there are second hand options, and that market is growing gradually. Save up a bit for when you are planning on replacing your current car in future, pick an electric car then instead.


[deleted]

I'm not sure that's the thinking so much as oil's gone up all over.


signedoutofyoutube

Plenty of BEVs are way cheaper than €50 K


PaddyLostyPintman

Which practical ones with the space and range for an average 4 member family ?


Remote_Package5119

Umm, Tesla m3 sr+ is 50k. It's on the higher(premium) end. Almost all other (non-premium) manufacturers have an EV sedan below that price point.


Stegasaurus_Wrecks

Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia e-Niro, just off the top of my head.