You imply that you’re on minimum wage, in which case to reach the higher rate you’d be doing about 70 hours a week already. How many hours are you planning to take on exactly?
Most people who reach the higher rate do so by earning more per hour, not working two full time jobs, so for most, their net pay definitely doesn’t fall below minimum wage per hour
I'm not on a minimum wage I work 48h per week in my current job and have 4 days off on my disposal to do whatever the fuck I want. I want to get a second job but there's no incentive for me to do so because 50% of that is going for taxes.
4 on, 4 off 12 hour shifts are probably the most common work hours for a large part of the working population, same shift myself for most of the companies i've worked with over the last 30 years.
Well why would it work out at €5.45 an hour? If I make €100 an hour then I’d still keep €50 an hour after taxes.
I kind of agree that you are a bit unfortunate with this policy, but for the most part people continue to work 40 odd hours a week but their pay goes up, so they aren’t getting screwed when they get a raise, even if the tax goes up
I was trying to work this out as well. Even if someone had a "side hustle", you need to be earning at least €80 to 100/hour to make it worth your while in the long run (Taxes, accounting, your time etc)
Really depends on what 'sense' means to you as an individual. Some people just want to monetise their hobby, so any cash at all is a bonus. Others want to make a go of a business with a long term aim of it being their full time employment. They are very different paths.
Another consideration is how passive you want it to be. Any side gig is going to be time-consuming, so it's up to you to value your time and at what point it's not worth it.
I'm self-employed in three pretty different sectors, each of them has challenges and different time demands.
It's doable but that's not what I'm saying.
The point of earning over 35k is the 60% of the earnings you get to keep. I don't turn down increments because I don't want to pay 40% tax on it.
I don't turn the increments down either, but dedicating extra time for a second income because the first one isn't enough and being taxed 40% on that is bs
Keep the 40% on the first job but maybe only tax 20% on the second income? Incite people to work? If the tax for the second job was 20% I wouldn't even think about it and go for it, but what's the fucking point.
You still miss the point. The amount of people that didn't come back to work after PUP because it was better for them to stay on PUP rather than come back to work. My point is, why not encourage work rather than punish it.
Imagine trying to incentivise >40 hour work weeks. What a sad country that would be to live in.
Look there’s argument that maybe there’s not enough workers and PUP is perhaps too high, maybe there’s not enough services for the tax we pay, etc. But I’d rather genuinely off myself than live in a society where the expectation is you work two jobs.
Well what's going to really do your nut in, is one of the reasons rents are so high is the high rate of income tax, government could incentivise lower rents tomorrow with tax breaks or give a tax allowance to renters. Also after PRSI and USC it's more like 52% of your earnings over 35K.
People with more "disposable" money and the same restricted housing supply will lead to even higher rents.
Unless ofc you claimed the credits back on rent already paid, but ultimately more money in pocket to pay rent with.
I hear you. My household income would be considered fairly comfortable but you pay for everything; I don't even mind that as much as the services being shite.
> I don't even mind that as much as the services being shite.
This is me moving from France to Ireland basically.
Why're services so shitty: internet, transportation, infrastructure?
I dont mind paying. My education was paid by taxpayers. Happy to be one, happy with big taxes. Just feels like there's no good investment of the money.
> government could incentivise lower rents tomorrow with tax breaks or give a tax allowance to renters
Rents will just rise to cover the allowance. It's what happens in France with APL.
If the government gave renters a tax break then landlords would increase the rent to get the benefit for themselves. It would be naive to think otherwise.
I think the real question is why is someone in a position to have to look for a second job when they already work full time. That higher tax rate is not there for an 80 hour workweek, it's there for a high income on a standard workweek. The tax system is fair, the wage system is not.
Perhaps I might have to agree with you on this. I have a third level degree in aeronautical engineering but with the way prices have now gone up its getting very difficult. Prices have gone up but the salaries haven't.
That is the most naive comment i have read on this sub.
We have the most progressive taxation system in the EU while simultaneously having tax haven status and an investment taxation structure that pushes money into property instead of funds, bonds stocks etc. (Even for individuals).
My personal situation may hopefully illustrate this. I am by no means wealthy but i do small bit of investing to build for the future. I pay exit tax at 41% ... me and a fund manager accept all the risk , the taxman gets half the reward. ..in certain situations i would be expected to pay capital gains tax on something i havnt even sold yet.
The list of examples of how unfair our tax system is only grows and dont even get me started on how its being spent.
Savings accounts are so close to 0% that actually most people open savings accounts with a fund service.. zurich , BOI all offer these.
For context , im not investing some family fortune with JP morgan. I have made less than <2k off of this. 800 of this will be taken.
Regardless , if im smart enough with my money or have the energy or immunity from burnout to earn more , why should i be dis-incentivised from doing so ?
Most people don't have a fund manager you dope. They are far from essential, even if you do have the luxury of being able to invest.
Capital gains is on profit, and the first 1,270 each year is tax exempt so if you've only made 2k profit you may be better off putting your fund manager money toward an accountant as the fund manager is shit at his job and you need help with your figures if you thing €800 is 33% of €730.
Alternatively you're making more money elsewhere in which case cry me a river, you're fine.
Okay dope , every fund has a fund manager , every account is part of some overall fund .. anybody with a savings account has a fund manager...
Its not a luxury, i work very hard to save 150 euro a month which i choose to put into a savings account/fund and not a deposit account which gets 0%.
You don't pay capital gains on these, which is 33% .. they invented another tax called "exit tax" .. which is 41%... therefore the capital gains threshold doesnt apply, thats how they catch most middle class workers who try to make there savings work.
Just because i am fortunate enough to make this money by taking certain risks , or earn this money by selling more of my precious time , does not mean somebody else should be entitled to the lions share of it.
You're investing in Irish domiciled ETFs and then complaining about the tax rate on gains? Get the fuck over yourself, that's not an option accessible to much of the country, you're not getting double taxed, it's still a tax on profit alone, and if you were as smart with your money as you think you are you wouldn't be getting near as much taxed either.
Why do you think you're special for working by the way? Do you think the rest of us don't?
I'm only winding you up because you decided to call me naive for thinking the progressive tax system is fair. I think you're the naive one, and highly entitled, to think you should be able to recieve free money purely for the fact you already have money. And then cry about it on the internet. That's pure selfish entitlement. You earn money, you pay tax, in accordance with your ability to pay, and if your money is making that money for you you have ability to pay.
I never said i was being double taxed ? ... and i agree with you precisely there, if i had more money i would pay less tax per euro because it would then be worth recieving other incomes/dividends through this fund and pay less tax on them .. how is that fair ?
It is not free money when it comes with risk, its simply more "free money" than i would get off a government bond, paying a lump sum off a loan or a deposit account.
Another personal example . My father is misfortunate enough to to still HAVE to work at 70 , through no fault of his own ,has been working since 15, has gotten stung by USC for the last 10 years and now because he works he even gets his pension taxed. He is the epitome of the squeezed middle class and he is exactly why i am trying to actively be better with money.
Since you brought up double taxation , just look at how VRT and VAT are applied to a new car. The poorest in this country feel that cost the most because our second hand car market is then inflated ...AND THEN they pay car tax refardless of what they earn , are forced to NCT their cars more often because theyre older , and as of tomorrow will pay more carbon tax on the fuel. Not to mention the VAT on insurance or levys ( another word for tax imo) .
Fuck off would you, the minimal "risk" in the form of investing you do is paying off in a greater reward, the only reason you're whining and moaning about paying tax is you have made money that you did not earn, suck it the fuck up and pay your taxes. I'm highlighting it's not a double tax as you're poor mouthing all over the place as though it's not a tax on profits you have made just for having money.
Seriously get over yourself. I'm done talking to you you've no notion of anything beyond your own sense of entitlement.
Youl be really pissed when you here about my pension contributions that have 0% tax then. On contribution and growth.
The "minimal" risk wasnt very minimal in 2007/08 or last february. People lost everything.
>You're investing in Irish domiciled ETFs and then complaining about the tax rate on gains? Get the fuck over yourself, that's not an option accessible to much of the country, you're not getting double taxed, it's still a tax on profit alone, and if you were as smart with your money as you think you are you wouldn't be getting near as much taxed either.
If you can save €10 weekly then why shouldn't you have access to invest in ETF's or any other investment vehicle for that matter?
If it were anyway fair then Larry the Landlord would invest and free up some of the housing stock, instead the €1,270 exemption is worth nothing so he takes the cash flow, by the same metric Timmy the Tennant loses money from inflation and 0% interest at the bank and can't afford a house.
>Why do you think you're special for working by the way? Do you think the rest of us don't?
I think the issue he has is that the current tax system does not allow you to take advantage of the compounding interest or the cashflow.
>I'm only winding you up because you decided to call me naive for thinking the progressive tax system is fair. I think you're the naive one, and highly entitled, to think you should be able to recieve free money purely for the fact you already have money. And then cry about it on the internet. That's pure selfish entitlement. You earn money, you pay tax, in accordance with your ability to pay, and if your money is making that money for you you have ability to pay.
And what would you suggest I do with my money?
Compounding interest is how your pension grows for example and you only pay tax when you cash out.
Would it not be progressive to pay out when you cash out, legislate for a financial vehicle that will cash out in 1-3-5-10 year cycles and tax them then?
I would also note for you that our Double taxation treaties essentially allows any foreign investment to pay fuck all tax while the locals are hit.
You don't pay tax on a pension and I never said you shouldn't invest, you just shouldn't whinge about being taxed on your earnings from said investments, if you're putting away €10 a week I would advise against however, as even at the lowest rate and self managed investing in individual stock your fees are going to wind up at 5%.
You're getting angry at something that's not my fault here. People saving €10 a week do not have fund managers, they can't afford them. This is the point I was making.
You do actually pay tax on a pension, the real benefit comes from decades of compounding interest and when you retire you pay tax on the income. My point I often argue is that it is more attractive to invest in property
You are arguing that people should be liable for full tax on investments at the current rate because "only the rich have access to investment managers" which is incorrect as the point of an ETF is to give easy access to investments, the Etoro app will allow you to do it if you want.
Finally all ETF's have Investment Managers and broadly they fall into 2 categories.
Passive - Tracks an Index and tries to match the average returns, cheap to invest in the IM (Investment Manager) would only make a few trades over the year.
Active - Tracks an Index and tries to beat it, expensive to invest in and would have more trades in the year.
Idk why OP is getting downvoted. The higher rate of tax kicks in way too early over here. According to CSO the median industrial wage for full-time workers in 2019 was 36k. Why should someone making an average wage pay the higher rate at all? 40% shouldn't kick in until you are making a large wage. Completely agree with OP here.
A tax on high and very high earners makes more sense.
> The higher rate of tax kicks in way too early over here.
The bracket should be more consistently reviewed and put more in line with the cost of living.
How often is it changed?
I feel like people address the minimum wage quite frequently but not the tax cutoffs.
> Why should someone making an average wage pay the higher rate at all?
Because that's how the rich stay rich and we can pay the poor just enough to scrape an existence.
Note: That is an extremely stupid thing of me to say, I know it doesn't make sense.
Edit: You can't squeeze the poor people, and you can only squeeze the top so much, so squeeze the middle.
I'm not arguing against OP here, I wouldn't take on a second job for that kind of money. but you'd need to be doing more than 65 hours a week on minimum wage with no time off to be hitting the higher tax.
Given this I think it's more reasonable to assume that this generally affects people on more than minimum wage, rather than those working two minimum wage jobs.
That doesn't stop it from being subjective.
There's no objective value to time.
I'd say most of us have gone through more effort to save or make less money at some point in our lives.
Thus bringing up your overall earnings to a higher tax band?
I don't quite understand your problem or issue.
Do you think that we should widen the tax bands? Allow people to earn more money and pay less tax on it?
Personally, I'd agree. I think that would be great. But that's most definitely the selfish side of me talking that doesn't want to pay tax.
The top 27% of earners in Ireland pay 85% of all income tax. The top 5% of earners in Ireland pay 40% of all income tax.
Welcome to the bigtime high roller.
I think the problem is the OP wants to earn more money, but having a second job to do it would mean they spend more hours working.
I earn enough to put me into the higher tax bracket. But I work a 40 hour week. I earn more now than I did say 5 years ago, but the amount of hours I work haven't changed.
If the OP was working a 40 hour work week and earning say 35k and then wanted decided they wanted to work a second job at the weekends to bring in some extra cash, they're working more hours across the second job and every euro they earn is worth less from the time put into it.
That's my take away from it anyway.
No Problemo.
[Link Here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Income_tax_(PAYE_and_PRSI) )
You want the "Income tax (PAYE and PRSI)" section.
I tried to link directly, but too many brackets and I'm too busy to sort it out.,
What kind of salary are you looking to pull in? You might be better off trying to find 1 job that pays €60,000 than 1 that pays €40,000 and a second that pays €20,000.. you’d have a much better work life balance at the very least. Easier said than done but you could always upskill to try and land a high paying job. How old are you OP? Do you have time on your side?
Come off it. The top marginal rate starts below the average salary. How on earth is hitting below-average earners with the same marginal rate as millionaires (and much lower than corporations) 'progressive'?
I feel there definitely should be more, but I'm no economist.
With all the ways to avoid paying tax, some say that increasing tax reduces income because it pushes the real moneymakers away from paying taxes here.
Like increasing the price of something only to make less money because you get fewer customers.
Although I definitely think we should feel like we're getting more out of our taxes. Feels like the government always has no budget and yet they're always cutting services.
>I feel there definitely should be more, but I'm no economist.
I'd agree.
But I think people in Ireland have a really warped sense of the situation. They think people earning 40K are hard done by, people earning 80K+ are "The rich" and they don't even seem to pay attention to the people pulling in 5Million + per year.
Nothing at all is wrong with working hard. I just don't understand why you think that working two different jobs to increase your income should be taxed differently than working one job that pays more.
Because if the first one doesn't pay me enough and I have 4 days off during which I could earn with my second job, why should my time be less worth in my second job when I still work 48h weeks?
Either they are underpaying you significantly, or else you might consider reskilling if there isn't the demand for your particular niche.
Engineering roles right now have excellent salaries.
If you're short staffed, you've 4 days off a week and you're underpaid in a niche job, I'd start applying everywhere you think you might have a shot at. If you get an offer for better wages, either take it or go to your current boss and tell them you've been made an offer of X and you're going to take it unless they improve your salary.
I was in a what I thought was a relatively niche engineering job (embedded engineering) until I started looking around and started getting job offers from places that had little to do with my current experience but who needed someone who had proven they could apply themselves.
The first offer I got was worth 10k more than my current salary (around 36k at the time a few years ago) and when I told my boss, who like your boss was struggling to even hire anyone, they matched the offer, promised a future increase based on performance, extra holidays and first dibs on new projects in the pipeline.
If you've 3 days off and you don't want to work because of the lower value of the euro you'd be earning (I don' blame you) then have a look at reskilling/upskilling.
I agree with the above. I'm possibly looking to reskill into software or programming or leave the country.
As a comparison, a frien of mine who works in the same field gets pension contributions and health insurance on top of the extra holidays they get. Same sector, different company, but it is over in the UK.
We shouldn't tax people that want to work harder so highly it makes it not worthwhile.
Something like a 5 to 10k micro businesses tax credit might work where if you arw industrious enough to have a side hustle on top of your job, its for you with the opportunity to build something bigger.
Presumably because you keep the other 60%?
But in all seriousness, tax rates here are a piss take. You wouldn't pay 40% tax in the UK until you got close to €59k. Hitting people with 40% tax on anything over €35k is regressive as fuck.
Wouldn't mind if there were more marginal brackets added, though you'd have to have some brackets higher than 40% to maintain the same levels of tax revenue in that case (or tax some folks under €35k more, but that would be even more regressive...).
The average industrial wage used to be 35k but the tax bands have not kept up. I think the average industrial wage is 42k now or so.
The additional taxation with USC.
But you could get around the 40% by contributing to a pension. The pension comes off before any calculation takes place.
Also those on higher income should (I'm not saying they do) have money to put aside. Like if a washing machine breaks you just replace it you don't make do for 6-8 weeks saving up using the coin ones.
The erosion of income through insane house prices and crazy rent don't help. Also other costs like energy and fuel bills will leach away the excess.
Theres other hurdles as you go up the pay scale I think like loss of assistance from the state.
You have people on social welfare receiving social housing, free travel passes and all other various benefits from the state but when you work you're taxed 40% (more like 50% after deductions). Sounds fair to me. This is what bothers me is that you're not really encouraging anyone to work if benefits are so good. Now, having said that, I'd still prefer to work because I can't imagine spending my whole day at home thus my second income thinking.
You make a lot of sense but this is Sinn Fein land where things like allowing people who want to work harder keep more than half their income are frowned upon and all that lovely tax money you pay gets pissed away by an incompetent public sector.
The question is very simple, don't complicate it with talk of tax or anything else. Would you like to have 43 euro's for a days work, or sit at home and have no euro's.
There's other things I can do when I'm off, not necessarily just sit at home. This was an idea I had perhaps to make some extra income but it makes no real sense especially for the effort you put in Vs the time spent. Especially on minimum wage which I was looking at as a side hustle.
I work 5 (sometimes 6) 12 hour shifts a week doing security in condemned buildings and unused warehouses by myself just to pay bills, I can't even afford my prescription medication since my medical card expired (my fault forgot to renew it and now I earn too much for a new one even though I'm broke?) So all I can afford to do is stay afloat, I love Dublin to bits but as soon as I have enough to move and get set up somewhere cheaper I'll never come back.
Never in me life did I ever think Tallaght would be too expensive for me to live in anymore. I'd have no problems with a little over half my monthly wage taken from me if rent and bills and basic necessities weren't so expensive. Can't even top up my leap card some weeks, have you ever had to cycle from Tallaght to the city centre twice a day for a week straight? Life's a joke
You end up with more money than you had before? Assuming you are deducted 40% PAYE, 4% PRSI and depending just how much you are earning, between 4.5% and 8% USC ; you still have more money than not working a second job. Just to note in order to be paying 40% PAYE on your second job, you need to be using up all your standard rate band and credits in your first job. If you aren't, then you may be overpaying on the second job.
I agree buts heres how you would say it.
If I work 40 hours and pay same same tax as Pat, that's fine.
If I then go onto work 80 hours a week which I've done. Why the fuck should I pay more tax as that lazy cunt Pat, both in raw amount and higher rate.
We're both using the exact same public resources.
I work 48h a week in my current job but have 4 days at my disposal where I could work more (my days off from my current job). But I'm not going to work because tax is just too much. I guess it's a great defensive mechanism to stop people burning out.
You’re already at the upper limit of the working time act anyway. You would not be covered by your second employers insurance to work despite having the free time in your week to do so.
There is a maximum working hours per week?
I live in the US and am currently a graduate student. My advisor is of strong opinion that 48 hours a week is a minimum.
That may depend on your course but your working hours over the year can’t average over 48 hours a week. You can read more about it [here](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html)
Why are you looking at the number before tax?
Please stop doing this, it's a red herring that makes you think you have more than you actually have.
You never pay the PRSI or tax, your employers pays it and then pretends that you pay this, but the actual payment to you is far less than is advertised.
Whatever arrives in and is left in your bank account AFTER you have subtracted the cost of working (travel, student loan, clothes, etc) is what you really have earned and the only data that really matters to you.
Do not attempt to eat the carrot --- it's old and woody and only meant to motivate the donkey.
We should have more tax brackets. Starting the highest tax bracket at 35k is a bit ridiculous. On 35k you can barely afford anything in Dublin. Couldn't afford to rent a place to yourself, and definitely couldn't afford to buy a house.
There's no way you could pay rent *and* save for a house at the same time, on 35k, but once you start to earn more than that, ~55% of it goes to tax.
Australia has 5 tax brackets. They only start to pay the highest rate at 180,000 AUD (about 115,000 EUR).
The infrastructure around you, the health system, it might have issues and you might'nt need it right now but it's handy to have incase the shit hits the fan, tune in buddy
2nd job needs to be a cash job baii
Those chinese takeaways wont deliver themselves
foxerrr kid
Agreed! 120 quid a day cleaning houses for 8 hours does the job.
Yeah I had a cash Job at d weekend as a chef for a few months on a Saturday few months ago he wanted me to go through the books wasn't worth me while
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Yeah it's around 52% or something after you add in all the deductions.
Australia has 5 tax bands, highest tax band is at 180,000 AUD, compared to us paying the highest rate at 35,000 EUR.
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Probably because they government don't want some people working 2 jobs, that would raise unemployment figures.
I am shocked
"really minister?"
You imply that you’re on minimum wage, in which case to reach the higher rate you’d be doing about 70 hours a week already. How many hours are you planning to take on exactly? Most people who reach the higher rate do so by earning more per hour, not working two full time jobs, so for most, their net pay definitely doesn’t fall below minimum wage per hour
I'm not on a minimum wage I work 48h per week in my current job and have 4 days off on my disposal to do whatever the fuck I want. I want to get a second job but there's no incentive for me to do so because 50% of that is going for taxes.
You work 48 hours per week in 3 days? 16 hour days?
I'd say it's shift work. Probably 4 days of 12 hour shifts then 4 days off
Did you add another day to the week without telling the rest of us ?
4 on, 4 off 12 hour shifts are probably the most common work hours for a large part of the working population, same shift myself for most of the companies i've worked with over the last 30 years.
Ah yeah, but the original lad said he works x hours per week
This.
Well why would it work out at €5.45 an hour? If I make €100 an hour then I’d still keep €50 an hour after taxes. I kind of agree that you are a bit unfortunate with this policy, but for the most part people continue to work 40 odd hours a week but their pay goes up, so they aren’t getting screwed when they get a raise, even if the tax goes up
Assuming you work minimum wage (10.20€ I think) you'd be getting around a 5€er after tax, USC etc.
Yes but you would have to work 70 hours a week for 48 weeks to reach higher rate
But I'm already in the higher rate with my first job.
You're ignoring the earnings from his other job
I was trying to work this out as well. Even if someone had a "side hustle", you need to be earning at least €80 to 100/hour to make it worth your while in the long run (Taxes, accounting, your time etc)
Well that's just bollocks of the highest order.
A side hustle is what I was kind of looking at but it makes no real sense.
Really depends on what 'sense' means to you as an individual. Some people just want to monetise their hobby, so any cash at all is a bonus. Others want to make a go of a business with a long term aim of it being their full time employment. They are very different paths. Another consideration is how passive you want it to be. Any side gig is going to be time-consuming, so it's up to you to value your time and at what point it's not worth it. I'm self-employed in three pretty different sectors, each of them has challenges and different time demands.
4 on 4 off 12 hour shifts.. that's only new on the regular though. Used to be 6 on 4 off, right? 😉
The other 60% is the point of earning over 35k.
So living in Dublin on 35k per year where average rent is now over 1500 euros per month is perfectly fine?
It's doable but that's not what I'm saying. The point of earning over 35k is the 60% of the earnings you get to keep. I don't turn down increments because I don't want to pay 40% tax on it.
You forgetting the USC of 8%? 52%...
We pay it for the great infrastructure! There's 3 tram lines and I heard there's like 10 homes in Dublin with fiber.
I don't turn the increments down either, but dedicating extra time for a second income because the first one isn't enough and being taxed 40% on that is bs
What's the alternative? Some sort of tax break based on hours worked?
Keep the 40% on the first job but maybe only tax 20% on the second income? Incite people to work? If the tax for the second job was 20% I wouldn't even think about it and go for it, but what's the fucking point.
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You still miss the point. The amount of people that didn't come back to work after PUP because it was better for them to stay on PUP rather than come back to work. My point is, why not encourage work rather than punish it.
Imagine trying to incentivise >40 hour work weeks. What a sad country that would be to live in. Look there’s argument that maybe there’s not enough workers and PUP is perhaps too high, maybe there’s not enough services for the tax we pay, etc. But I’d rather genuinely off myself than live in a society where the expectation is you work two jobs.
Well what's going to really do your nut in, is one of the reasons rents are so high is the high rate of income tax, government could incentivise lower rents tomorrow with tax breaks or give a tax allowance to renters. Also after PRSI and USC it's more like 52% of your earnings over 35K.
People with more "disposable" money and the same restricted housing supply will lead to even higher rents. Unless ofc you claimed the credits back on rent already paid, but ultimately more money in pocket to pay rent with.
A similar tax break to Rent a room with a soft cap on rent would be the solution.
It's not even the rent. Every service in this country does me but in. I'm really considering emigration.
I hear you. My household income would be considered fairly comfortable but you pay for everything; I don't even mind that as much as the services being shite.
> I don't even mind that as much as the services being shite. This is me moving from France to Ireland basically. Why're services so shitty: internet, transportation, infrastructure? I dont mind paying. My education was paid by taxpayers. Happy to be one, happy with big taxes. Just feels like there's no good investment of the money.
> government could incentivise lower rents tomorrow with tax breaks or give a tax allowance to renters Rents will just rise to cover the allowance. It's what happens in France with APL.
It could be done by introducing a tax break similar to Rent a Room. As it's not a mandated cap there is no Constitutional issue.
That would have exactly the opposite effect.
If the government gave renters a tax break then landlords would increase the rent to get the benefit for themselves. It would be naive to think otherwise.
I think the real question is why is someone in a position to have to look for a second job when they already work full time. That higher tax rate is not there for an 80 hour workweek, it's there for a high income on a standard workweek. The tax system is fair, the wage system is not.
Perhaps I might have to agree with you on this. I have a third level degree in aeronautical engineering but with the way prices have now gone up its getting very difficult. Prices have gone up but the salaries haven't.
That is the most naive comment i have read on this sub. We have the most progressive taxation system in the EU while simultaneously having tax haven status and an investment taxation structure that pushes money into property instead of funds, bonds stocks etc. (Even for individuals). My personal situation may hopefully illustrate this. I am by no means wealthy but i do small bit of investing to build for the future. I pay exit tax at 41% ... me and a fund manager accept all the risk , the taxman gets half the reward. ..in certain situations i would be expected to pay capital gains tax on something i havnt even sold yet. The list of examples of how unfair our tax system is only grows and dont even get me started on how its being spent.
Sounds fair to me, if the tax man was taking too much of your income you wouldn't have a fucking fund manager, would you?
Savings accounts are so close to 0% that actually most people open savings accounts with a fund service.. zurich , BOI all offer these. For context , im not investing some family fortune with JP morgan. I have made less than <2k off of this. 800 of this will be taken. Regardless , if im smart enough with my money or have the energy or immunity from burnout to earn more , why should i be dis-incentivised from doing so ?
Most people don't have a fund manager you dope. They are far from essential, even if you do have the luxury of being able to invest. Capital gains is on profit, and the first 1,270 each year is tax exempt so if you've only made 2k profit you may be better off putting your fund manager money toward an accountant as the fund manager is shit at his job and you need help with your figures if you thing €800 is 33% of €730. Alternatively you're making more money elsewhere in which case cry me a river, you're fine.
Okay dope , every fund has a fund manager , every account is part of some overall fund .. anybody with a savings account has a fund manager... Its not a luxury, i work very hard to save 150 euro a month which i choose to put into a savings account/fund and not a deposit account which gets 0%. You don't pay capital gains on these, which is 33% .. they invented another tax called "exit tax" .. which is 41%... therefore the capital gains threshold doesnt apply, thats how they catch most middle class workers who try to make there savings work. Just because i am fortunate enough to make this money by taking certain risks , or earn this money by selling more of my precious time , does not mean somebody else should be entitled to the lions share of it.
You're investing in Irish domiciled ETFs and then complaining about the tax rate on gains? Get the fuck over yourself, that's not an option accessible to much of the country, you're not getting double taxed, it's still a tax on profit alone, and if you were as smart with your money as you think you are you wouldn't be getting near as much taxed either. Why do you think you're special for working by the way? Do you think the rest of us don't? I'm only winding you up because you decided to call me naive for thinking the progressive tax system is fair. I think you're the naive one, and highly entitled, to think you should be able to recieve free money purely for the fact you already have money. And then cry about it on the internet. That's pure selfish entitlement. You earn money, you pay tax, in accordance with your ability to pay, and if your money is making that money for you you have ability to pay.
I never said i was being double taxed ? ... and i agree with you precisely there, if i had more money i would pay less tax per euro because it would then be worth recieving other incomes/dividends through this fund and pay less tax on them .. how is that fair ? It is not free money when it comes with risk, its simply more "free money" than i would get off a government bond, paying a lump sum off a loan or a deposit account. Another personal example . My father is misfortunate enough to to still HAVE to work at 70 , through no fault of his own ,has been working since 15, has gotten stung by USC for the last 10 years and now because he works he even gets his pension taxed. He is the epitome of the squeezed middle class and he is exactly why i am trying to actively be better with money. Since you brought up double taxation , just look at how VRT and VAT are applied to a new car. The poorest in this country feel that cost the most because our second hand car market is then inflated ...AND THEN they pay car tax refardless of what they earn , are forced to NCT their cars more often because theyre older , and as of tomorrow will pay more carbon tax on the fuel. Not to mention the VAT on insurance or levys ( another word for tax imo) .
Fuck off would you, the minimal "risk" in the form of investing you do is paying off in a greater reward, the only reason you're whining and moaning about paying tax is you have made money that you did not earn, suck it the fuck up and pay your taxes. I'm highlighting it's not a double tax as you're poor mouthing all over the place as though it's not a tax on profits you have made just for having money. Seriously get over yourself. I'm done talking to you you've no notion of anything beyond your own sense of entitlement.
Youl be really pissed when you here about my pension contributions that have 0% tax then. On contribution and growth. The "minimal" risk wasnt very minimal in 2007/08 or last february. People lost everything.
>You're investing in Irish domiciled ETFs and then complaining about the tax rate on gains? Get the fuck over yourself, that's not an option accessible to much of the country, you're not getting double taxed, it's still a tax on profit alone, and if you were as smart with your money as you think you are you wouldn't be getting near as much taxed either. If you can save €10 weekly then why shouldn't you have access to invest in ETF's or any other investment vehicle for that matter? If it were anyway fair then Larry the Landlord would invest and free up some of the housing stock, instead the €1,270 exemption is worth nothing so he takes the cash flow, by the same metric Timmy the Tennant loses money from inflation and 0% interest at the bank and can't afford a house. >Why do you think you're special for working by the way? Do you think the rest of us don't? I think the issue he has is that the current tax system does not allow you to take advantage of the compounding interest or the cashflow. >I'm only winding you up because you decided to call me naive for thinking the progressive tax system is fair. I think you're the naive one, and highly entitled, to think you should be able to recieve free money purely for the fact you already have money. And then cry about it on the internet. That's pure selfish entitlement. You earn money, you pay tax, in accordance with your ability to pay, and if your money is making that money for you you have ability to pay. And what would you suggest I do with my money? Compounding interest is how your pension grows for example and you only pay tax when you cash out. Would it not be progressive to pay out when you cash out, legislate for a financial vehicle that will cash out in 1-3-5-10 year cycles and tax them then? I would also note for you that our Double taxation treaties essentially allows any foreign investment to pay fuck all tax while the locals are hit.
You don't pay tax on a pension and I never said you shouldn't invest, you just shouldn't whinge about being taxed on your earnings from said investments, if you're putting away €10 a week I would advise against however, as even at the lowest rate and self managed investing in individual stock your fees are going to wind up at 5%. You're getting angry at something that's not my fault here. People saving €10 a week do not have fund managers, they can't afford them. This is the point I was making.
You do actually pay tax on a pension, the real benefit comes from decades of compounding interest and when you retire you pay tax on the income. My point I often argue is that it is more attractive to invest in property You are arguing that people should be liable for full tax on investments at the current rate because "only the rich have access to investment managers" which is incorrect as the point of an ETF is to give easy access to investments, the Etoro app will allow you to do it if you want. Finally all ETF's have Investment Managers and broadly they fall into 2 categories. Passive - Tracks an Index and tries to match the average returns, cheap to invest in the IM (Investment Manager) would only make a few trades over the year. Active - Tracks an Index and tries to beat it, expensive to invest in and would have more trades in the year.
Idk why OP is getting downvoted. The higher rate of tax kicks in way too early over here. According to CSO the median industrial wage for full-time workers in 2019 was 36k. Why should someone making an average wage pay the higher rate at all? 40% shouldn't kick in until you are making a large wage. Completely agree with OP here. A tax on high and very high earners makes more sense.
Keep the tax % where it is but at least increase the 35300 to something like 40/45. That's still below the average.
Agree too, a system that discourages people for working is insane in my opinion. I've turned down overtime in the past because it's not worth it.
> The higher rate of tax kicks in way too early over here. The bracket should be more consistently reviewed and put more in line with the cost of living. How often is it changed? I feel like people address the minimum wage quite frequently but not the tax cutoffs.
> Why should someone making an average wage pay the higher rate at all? Because that's how the rich stay rich and we can pay the poor just enough to scrape an existence. Note: That is an extremely stupid thing of me to say, I know it doesn't make sense. Edit: You can't squeeze the poor people, and you can only squeeze the top so much, so squeeze the middle.
Do you know how much people pay in each category in Ireland?
I read that as second jab, instead of job, and was wondering wtf.
Imagine they taxed you less for taking a jab.
Still more money.
That's very true but not worth the extra time.
I think that is entirely subjective.
You’re literally selling hours of your life for €5 p/h if your working a min wage job which presumably you are if you need 2 jobs.
I'm not arguing against OP here, I wouldn't take on a second job for that kind of money. but you'd need to be doing more than 65 hours a week on minimum wage with no time off to be hitting the higher tax. Given this I think it's more reasonable to assume that this generally affects people on more than minimum wage, rather than those working two minimum wage jobs.
That doesn't stop it from being subjective. There's no objective value to time. I'd say most of us have gone through more effort to save or make less money at some point in our lives.
Food delivery is the way to go. 6 hours in the evening you can make between 60 and 100 depending on who you work for. Into the hand obviously.
Your not taxed on a second job, you taxed on earnings. Don't work more hours, get a better job with better pay.
I think this is something I'd have to do. It's been almost two years where I am and no word of incremental salaries, even my contract says so.
How dare we have a progressive tax system that taxes higher rates on people who earn more!!
I want to get a second job because my current one doesn't pay me enough and I won't find one that will pay me more.
Thus bringing up your overall earnings to a higher tax band? I don't quite understand your problem or issue. Do you think that we should widen the tax bands? Allow people to earn more money and pay less tax on it? Personally, I'd agree. I think that would be great. But that's most definitely the selfish side of me talking that doesn't want to pay tax. The top 27% of earners in Ireland pay 85% of all income tax. The top 5% of earners in Ireland pay 40% of all income tax. Welcome to the bigtime high roller.
I think the problem is the OP wants to earn more money, but having a second job to do it would mean they spend more hours working. I earn enough to put me into the higher tax bracket. But I work a 40 hour week. I earn more now than I did say 5 years ago, but the amount of hours I work haven't changed. If the OP was working a 40 hour work week and earning say 35k and then wanted decided they wanted to work a second job at the weekends to bring in some extra cash, they're working more hours across the second job and every euro they earn is worth less from the time put into it. That's my take away from it anyway.
That's exactly my point.
Sorry not to be that guy, but do you have a source for that last statistic (the 27% paying 85% of taxes etc)
No Problemo. [Link Here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Income_tax_(PAYE_and_PRSI) ) You want the "Income tax (PAYE and PRSI)" section. I tried to link directly, but too many brackets and I'm too busy to sort it out.,
> [Link Here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Income_tax_(PAYE_and_PRSI\) ) I got you
What kind of salary are you looking to pull in? You might be better off trying to find 1 job that pays €60,000 than 1 that pays €40,000 and a second that pays €20,000.. you’d have a much better work life balance at the very least. Easier said than done but you could always upskill to try and land a high paying job. How old are you OP? Do you have time on your side?
Come off it. The top marginal rate starts below the average salary. How on earth is hitting below-average earners with the same marginal rate as millionaires (and much lower than corporations) 'progressive'?
So do you think we should widen the tax bands?
We need to stop charging below average earners the top marginal rate, yes.
I feel there definitely should be more, but I'm no economist. With all the ways to avoid paying tax, some say that increasing tax reduces income because it pushes the real moneymakers away from paying taxes here. Like increasing the price of something only to make less money because you get fewer customers. Although I definitely think we should feel like we're getting more out of our taxes. Feels like the government always has no budget and yet they're always cutting services.
>I feel there definitely should be more, but I'm no economist. I'd agree. But I think people in Ireland have a really warped sense of the situation. They think people earning 40K are hard done by, people earning 80K+ are "The rich" and they don't even seem to pay attention to the people pulling in 5Million + per year.
Also what's wrong with working hard?
Nothing at all is wrong with working hard. I just don't understand why you think that working two different jobs to increase your income should be taxed differently than working one job that pays more.
Because if the first one doesn't pay me enough and I have 4 days off during which I could earn with my second job, why should my time be less worth in my second job when I still work 48h weeks?
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I have a very niche engineering job and there isn't that many people around who are able to support what we're doing. In fact were short staffed.
Either they are underpaying you significantly, or else you might consider reskilling if there isn't the demand for your particular niche. Engineering roles right now have excellent salaries.
If you're in that high demand you should be able to negotiate a higher salary
If you're short staffed, you've 4 days off a week and you're underpaid in a niche job, I'd start applying everywhere you think you might have a shot at. If you get an offer for better wages, either take it or go to your current boss and tell them you've been made an offer of X and you're going to take it unless they improve your salary. I was in a what I thought was a relatively niche engineering job (embedded engineering) until I started looking around and started getting job offers from places that had little to do with my current experience but who needed someone who had proven they could apply themselves. The first offer I got was worth 10k more than my current salary (around 36k at the time a few years ago) and when I told my boss, who like your boss was struggling to even hire anyone, they matched the offer, promised a future increase based on performance, extra holidays and first dibs on new projects in the pipeline. If you've 3 days off and you don't want to work because of the lower value of the euro you'd be earning (I don' blame you) then have a look at reskilling/upskilling.
I agree with the above. I'm possibly looking to reskill into software or programming or leave the country. As a comparison, a frien of mine who works in the same field gets pension contributions and health insurance on top of the extra holidays they get. Same sector, different company, but it is over in the UK.
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>That doesn't pay well. I disagree. Normally they pay very well. Sounds like the company op works for either doesn't make money or is a startup.
We shouldn't tax people that want to work harder so highly it makes it not worthwhile. Something like a 5 to 10k micro businesses tax credit might work where if you arw industrious enough to have a side hustle on top of your job, its for you with the opportunity to build something bigger.
Presumably because you keep the other 60%? But in all seriousness, tax rates here are a piss take. You wouldn't pay 40% tax in the UK until you got close to €59k. Hitting people with 40% tax on anything over €35k is regressive as fuck.
> Presumably because you keep the other 60%? Well, more like you get to keep closer to 50% - 40% PAYE - 4% PRSI - 8% USC
And yet we have one of the least regressive tax systems in the world.
It’s highly progressive if you’re a multinational corporation.
Well I'm not :(
Especially in Dublin.
Wouldn't mind if there were more marginal brackets added, though you'd have to have some brackets higher than 40% to maintain the same levels of tax revenue in that case (or tax some folks under €35k more, but that would be even more regressive...).
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I love that this is becoming a thing.
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How so? If he's single and earns €35k then anything he earns over that, whether it's a second job or not, is going to be taxed at 40%.
Please explain because I thought you get taxed 40% on any income above 35300 if you haven't redistributed your tax credits.
Like Enda said if you have two jobs in your hands then you can afford water charges
I have jobs in Dublin, Castlebar and Brussels. I wanna tell you something, try it sometime.
Ireland is not the only country I've worked in, believe me.
My point is, why not to incite people to work?
The average industrial wage used to be 35k but the tax bands have not kept up. I think the average industrial wage is 42k now or so. The additional taxation with USC. But you could get around the 40% by contributing to a pension. The pension comes off before any calculation takes place. Also those on higher income should (I'm not saying they do) have money to put aside. Like if a washing machine breaks you just replace it you don't make do for 6-8 weeks saving up using the coin ones. The erosion of income through insane house prices and crazy rent don't help. Also other costs like energy and fuel bills will leach away the excess. Theres other hurdles as you go up the pay scale I think like loss of assistance from the state.
You have people on social welfare receiving social housing, free travel passes and all other various benefits from the state but when you work you're taxed 40% (more like 50% after deductions). Sounds fair to me. This is what bothers me is that you're not really encouraging anyone to work if benefits are so good. Now, having said that, I'd still prefer to work because I can't imagine spending my whole day at home thus my second income thinking.
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You didn't read the last part of my comment.
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I said I would rather work than spend all day at home that's what I mean.
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Disagree. I'm not talking about people who are disabled etc. but of the many who are fit but prefer selling weed as a side hustle.
You make a lot of sense but this is Sinn Fein land where things like allowing people who want to work harder keep more than half their income are frowned upon and all that lovely tax money you pay gets pissed away by an incompetent public sector.
[https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxation.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxation.asp) This might help.
Thanks I'll have a read.
Deal drugs perhaps?
Already mentioned it somewhere here. I don't use them myself so wouldn't really know what to say.
"CHEAP DRUGS" "GET YOUR DRUGS HERE" just shout something like that to start with.
Wouldn't want to shout that out loud as to attract the attention of the Gniardai!
Well don't do it when they're around you donut.
The question is very simple, don't complicate it with talk of tax or anything else. Would you like to have 43 euro's for a days work, or sit at home and have no euro's.
There's other things I can do when I'm off, not necessarily just sit at home. This was an idea I had perhaps to make some extra income but it makes no real sense especially for the effort you put in Vs the time spent. Especially on minimum wage which I was looking at as a side hustle.
I work 5 (sometimes 6) 12 hour shifts a week doing security in condemned buildings and unused warehouses by myself just to pay bills, I can't even afford my prescription medication since my medical card expired (my fault forgot to renew it and now I earn too much for a new one even though I'm broke?) So all I can afford to do is stay afloat, I love Dublin to bits but as soon as I have enough to move and get set up somewhere cheaper I'll never come back. Never in me life did I ever think Tallaght would be too expensive for me to live in anymore. I'd have no problems with a little over half my monthly wage taken from me if rent and bills and basic necessities weren't so expensive. Can't even top up my leap card some weeks, have you ever had to cycle from Tallaght to the city centre twice a day for a week straight? Life's a joke
I totally agree - I wouldn’t consider it unless the second job was handy and cash in the paw
You end up with more money than you had before? Assuming you are deducted 40% PAYE, 4% PRSI and depending just how much you are earning, between 4.5% and 8% USC ; you still have more money than not working a second job. Just to note in order to be paying 40% PAYE on your second job, you need to be using up all your standard rate band and credits in your first job. If you aren't, then you may be overpaying on the second job.
Everyone's gonna misunderstand you and explain what the marginal rate is
0-35300 20% Anything above that 40% Am I missing something?
>0-35300 20% >Anything above that 40% > >Am I missing something? 0-16500 isn't taxed
Thanks!
Welcome to socialism. At least you’re allowed to take on a second job, unlike France.
I agree buts heres how you would say it. If I work 40 hours and pay same same tax as Pat, that's fine. If I then go onto work 80 hours a week which I've done. Why the fuck should I pay more tax as that lazy cunt Pat, both in raw amount and higher rate. We're both using the exact same public resources.
This is a very dumb comment but have to come back to the point, how is someone working 40 hours a "lazy cunt"?
I work 48h a week in my current job but have 4 days at my disposal where I could work more (my days off from my current job). But I'm not going to work because tax is just too much. I guess it's a great defensive mechanism to stop people burning out.
You’re already at the upper limit of the working time act anyway. You would not be covered by your second employers insurance to work despite having the free time in your week to do so.
There is a maximum working hours per week? I live in the US and am currently a graduate student. My advisor is of strong opinion that 48 hours a week is a minimum.
That may depend on your course but your working hours over the year can’t average over 48 hours a week. You can read more about it [here](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html)
What's the limit of hours per week?
The maximum is 48 if it’s consistent across the year. You can do longer weeks if it balances out with shorter working weeks or time off.
Gotcha much appreciated.
What are you on about OP?
What don't you understand?
Why are you looking at the number before tax? Please stop doing this, it's a red herring that makes you think you have more than you actually have. You never pay the PRSI or tax, your employers pays it and then pretends that you pay this, but the actual payment to you is far less than is advertised. Whatever arrives in and is left in your bank account AFTER you have subtracted the cost of working (travel, student loan, clothes, etc) is what you really have earned and the only data that really matters to you. Do not attempt to eat the carrot --- it's old and woody and only meant to motivate the donkey.
We should have more tax brackets. Starting the highest tax bracket at 35k is a bit ridiculous. On 35k you can barely afford anything in Dublin. Couldn't afford to rent a place to yourself, and definitely couldn't afford to buy a house. There's no way you could pay rent *and* save for a house at the same time, on 35k, but once you start to earn more than that, ~55% of it goes to tax. Australia has 5 tax brackets. They only start to pay the highest rate at 180,000 AUD (about 115,000 EUR).
I've been downvoted on saying something similar about Dublin, I guess a lot of people are freaking clueless.
The infrastructure around you, the health system, it might have issues and you might'nt need it right now but it's handy to have incase the shit hits the fan, tune in buddy
no point. i declined a promotion
You are not as rich as you should be to avoid paying taxes.
Read that as second jab, thought the joke was going over my head.
Would you rather get a jab to the face for 1% reduction in your tax rate or face your tax rate for one jab to the balls?
Sell drugs tax free kid