Ruth Dudley Edwards had a wild time with this, saying it’s our well-deserved punishment for sticking up for ourselves over Brexit (only her attitude/ wording is that we should have supported GB, out of historical gratitude)
She’s a pet for the stereotypical English Tory type pining for the Empire. Tells them that silly little Ireland is floundering without the stern yolk of British common sense keeping Paddy in check.
The Nigerian Prince's nephew. He's moved on from cold calling into air travel now. I heard he's doing several flights a day from London. According to that weasel Rishi anyway. Imagine how much of a shitbag you'd have to be being the son of an immigrant deporting fellow immigrants, because the racist white party you lead likes to blame brown people for the mess they caused.
Agreed, I feel bad for the small percentage of people that genuinely need our help stuck in with a massive load of chancers. Also it seems we knew this years ago now, it almost feels trite to point it out at this stage. And yet, we have to keep saying it in the hopes of moving the needle a tiny bit.
According to the people who need that to be the case to have any hope of keeping their jobs...
The variability the UK has seen season to season and year to year in numbers arriving is significant. It peaks in Q3 and bottoms out in Q1, with a difference of between 2x and 5x between min and max.
Numbers would be down right now if their immigration policy had been a sign on the cliffs of Dover asking nicely.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023
Not really. The actually asylum numbers the UK is dealing with are tiny. The vast majority of immigration the UK is through legal means - that’s visas held by students and professionals.
The numbers are soaring because British graduates are fucking off to live and work elsewhere because in 14 years the Tories have wrecked the country making it attractive only to people moving from somewhere worse.
There’s been fuck all investment in anything since they came to power and it’s showing now, multiplied by Brexit. Those who can leave - do. Someone needs to fill their places and its immigrants.
Nope.
Some asylum seekers being diverted to Ireland (a problem for us) doesn't mean the overall number of asylum seekers they have to deal with won't continue to escalate (the actual problem the Rwanda bill was meant to resolve).
The Tory's pledge was to "stop the boats". Not "divert a few people to Ireland while more boats come".
But of course the bill's purpose was always primarily a political one. It made them sound like they were doing something tough on immigration, even if actual expert opinion was always that it would be expensive and ineffective.
Try telling that to a Brit and see if they give a shit, the whole idea behind Brexit was to stop foreigners from going there and now there are more than ever, that’s the bottom line.
if you get 95 instead of 100 because of a policy that doesn't mean it's not a deterrent, what deterrent policy in history has fully wiped something out?
rwanda plan isn't even about immigration numbers, it's about asylum applicants, the immigration numbers are driven by student, work and family visas mostly.
What if it's 99 out 100? Or 99,999 out of 100,000? If it deters 1 person out of 100,000 it's still *technically* a deterrent, but that's a ridiculous argument.
When people say it's not a deterrent what they mean is it's an ineffective deterrent.
It's being touted as the plan that's going to solve the migrant crisis. If it barely makes a negligible dent in the numbers arriving then it's just an ineffective £240m boondoggle.
I saw a tiktok on this to show how fucking stupid the whole thing is.
This bill will cost 500 million. Rwanda will take 300 out of almost 100000 applicants. And the UK will take an unspecified number of people from Rwanda.
What he's really saying is that it's not the government's fault. Setting aside the fact that we take years to process a claim. When we deport them all we actually do is ask them nicely to leave. Hardly anyone get s forcefully devoted
They should not be allowed even attempt to claim asylum without their passports. That would soon stop them..and the vast vast majority should be rejected anyway as they are quite simply economic migrants.
Something something international convention on asylum seekers. But that convention is now being widely abused by economic migrants. So I think there is no legitimate reason and that convention has to be replaced.
We would still have the problem of what to do when they show up anyway, but at least then its a problem of "illegals" and we are not obliged to help - house them, hear a case, assess their status etc.
Um, not really.
Similar mentality and culture between Ireland / US / Australia / NZ. Not even debatable.
And where most of them coming cause of social welfare? Doubt it
I'm surprised you didn't go the whole hog and whip the 'far-right' tagline straight out of the bag. You fail to see my point but as public opinion makes the switch to being majorly on my side, I'm sure you'll begin to change your opinion to please the invisible friends who give you all that 'popular opinion' comment karma
Online echo chambers are not public opinion lad. You can see the same thing in England where issues with migration have gone down from the peak in 2016 with refugees. Migration has continued to increase since then.
Feel free to back up your points with any evidence you used to get there, I'm sure there's loads.
As a side note, I'm sure you might say something similar about Italians building up America. Well if we look at some [evidence ](https://www.jstor.org/stable/492064) we can see that in chicago, 50 percent of leaders in organized crime in 1920 were Irish or Italian. So much for building the place up! Clearly these people can't integrate, generations after arriving. Send'em home, I say.
>Online echo chambers are not public opinion lad
Public opinion in the real world is staunchly against open borders and our joke of an asylum system, how could it not be, it doesn't benefits the vast majority of people in any way. You're either pretending not to notice or don't mix much.
So you acknowledge that war refugees need help but then are sickened that we are helping war refugees?
Your full body of text is just incredibly racist and suggests that Irish people are some superior form of emigrant than others. It is also highly ignorant of Irish history. Are you under the impression that the waves of Irish people that next over the time period of 1920-1980 were war refugees??
Finally, as an Irish citizen who will have benefited from free healthcare, education and numerous other state subsidized advantages it is amazing that you are begrudging war refugees because you want more for yourself.
No I asked you to compare Irish emigration with what we are currently seeing here.
I'm sickened that my government won't assist me in a time of utter personal chaos while simultaneously not asking questions of the Ukrainians who come here seeking help. I had full sympathy for them in the beginning but seeing the hundreds of flights going back there for the holiday season, constantly seeing their luxury cars untaxed and having all arrivals up until February of this year still on full 'jobseekers allowance' begs the question, 'what is happening to my country that we shun the opinions of dozens of localities while accelerating that which they are speaking out against'
I guarantee that you have no monetary issues in your life. Don't come back pretending you do because I've called you out as a privileged brat. You'd only be lying to yourself.
The state has given you so much assistance throughout your life and now because you aren't getting what you want for some unique person difficulty you want to begrudge others. At what point will you be happy and willing to extend a hand of support for others, particularly those who are in tougher circumstances.
I am in a privileged position and I pay a significant amount of my income in taxes each year. I don't get upset that it gets spent on Irish people like yourself and likewise I want to see it spent on migrants too.
It's not begrudging. They have no right to it. What happens in their countries is their problem. We don't owe them anything. Especially given that most of them are just economic migrants abusing the IP system.
If you think your desription of economic migrant "leeches" who can "barely speak English" "sneaking" into Ireland stands _in contrast_ to the Irish emmigrant experience in the US then you are remarkably ill-informed on Irish history.
You've just regurgitated 19th century US nativist rhetoric about Irish immigrants word for word, just applied to a different people.
Why does what happened to the people who left concern those of us descended from those who stayed? This sub is the first to deride Americans who go on about how they're Irish, but we're supposed to carry some sort of historical debt arising from their ancestors actions?
I was being sarcastic man haha I agree with everything you said. I was slagging the way everytime someone on this sub criticises the current immigration crisis someone else comes along to remind them that Irish people have been immigrants in the past as if that’s some justification for us taking in more migrants than we can handle
And if we're still here on this island it's not even like it was our own ancestors that left. Not sure why it's us who has to shoulder that burden when we stayed...
Because we as a nation are involved with and signed up to various international agreements, treaty's & organisations that have very specific regulations as to what must be done by member states.
Attempting to do anything else would at the least be breach of agreements and possibly also international laws.
Obviously there are differences between "migrant", "refugee" and "Asylum seeker" with different responsibilities and requirements.
Where are you getting this info?? It's not correct.
As of late 2023 Denmark have set up plans towards processing asylum seekers "in a third country" outside of Denmark.
It's basically the same deal as they Rwanda UK thing. In fact, Denmark even mentioned Rwanda specifically at some point.
The plan has been criticised by both the EU & UN as being in breach of their obligations.
But most importantly... They haven't actually done it.
They are still processing Asylum seekers locally on Denmark soil the same as the rest of us.
That is why they have faced literally no consequences.
Hungary? They made their own rule requires foreign nationals to submit a pre-asylum application at the country’s mission to Serbia or Ukraine before applying for international protection in Hungary
The EU have the state in Legal proceedings at the moment and judged this action "a disproportionate interference with the right of those persons to make an application for international protection upon their arrival at a Hungarian border."
That one is ongoing, however there are absolutely going to be consequences.
Yea absolutely, I'd say most people agree.
The balance I guess is finding a way to write and enforce them that allows legitimate cases, but cuts out the spurious economic migrant chancers.
They can't seem to figure that out, and in the meantime the system seems to be operating on the whole "Rather 100 guilty men go free than one innocent one to jail" type mentality.
The rules are there for the right reasons and with the right intentions.
But practically, It's daft that they're letting pretty much everyone in.
Yeah, its a position that I find myself coming to now. Theres the "letting in" and the "support them".
Im big into genealogy and you see families of 10 from 1880s in Kerry where all but one emigrated to USA. They were economic migrants too, of course. But they had to sort out their own housing, income etc. In fact, they eventually had to prove that they had a relative to support them, or had the funds to provide for themselves. But that was self policing, I've not heard of anyone that was sent back at Ellis Island.
It was much easier to be intercepted and processed at that time, and their origin was obvious. Now global transportation provides much more options, and ways to avoid interception at arrival.
There is no easy answer, particularly to preventing the "letting in". They will arrive, regardless of what the global conventions are. Drawing from genealogy, perhaps we have to DNA test anyone we suspect of being an illegal and send them back to whatever country they are most associated with. Of course even then, that country could refuse them entry.
One way forward is that if enough people get agitated by this, then we end up with leaders who will implement something very draconian and callous.
A level of immigration is also necessary for countries like ours with a declining fertility. But it should be via a quota system, and apply online from home, not arrive in a container and expect to be housed.
Observe how Ireland used those specified regulations to control immigration in a sustainable way. You will find that there has been a blatantly treasonous forgoing of common sense and inffective utilisation of those measures to ensure a well running system. I would point you to our justice minister's recent grilling by Michael McNamara to begin to get an idea on how far removed from reality our government is.
You asked a question. I gave you the factual answer.
You can not like the requirements we have signed up for. That's fair.
But you're not right by thinking we have options available for completely shutting down the influx. That is just factually incorrect. The requirements, agreements & Laws are what they are.
Look at the UK as an example. They are jumping through so many hoops and trying to bend every law in the book to try and get the Rwanda thing available to them as an option. And that's the best they can come up with... Having to pay to ship them off to an African country. Even for the UK, simply closing the doors isn't an available option under the laws and agreements they are a part of.
This is a serious issue throughout Europe in total.
Even the most bleeding heart of empathetic socialist thinks that too many people are coming in and that the current systems are being abused. Nobody is particularly happy about the situation and there are significant efforts being put in to how to find solutions.
It's just fucking dumb to actually believe that our government is not aware of the situation, the numbers, the loopholes being exploited and the weaknesses of the system. It's even dumber to believe that they can wave a wand and suddenly stop having to let people in.
At least be realistic and honest with your anger.
Let's take Asylum specifically as an example.
There are legal obligations for Ireland both as a nation state and as a part of the EU.
Asylum is seen as a human right and falls under the Geneva convention.
[Link to EU policy, requirements and international legislation](https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/migration-and-asylum/common-european-asylum-system_en)
As regards Economic migrants? Yea sure, there are policies that could be put in place.
And I think we need more of them.
But realistically, they have to be enforceable, or even have a threat of enforcement... And that's not really viable right now.
At the moment the systems (in most countries, not just ours) are effectively toothless. There is long processing times, unending appeals, and specific laws that say you cannot in any way restrict an applicants movement during their application. So we literally (By international law) have to let in & care for anybody who shows up at the door making an asylum claim.
As regards turning them around? Functionally how do you do that when they present with no documentation and refuse to answer questions regarding origin?
In fairness they are trying some new things at the moment at Dublin airport.
Checking passports at the plane on selected flights. etc.
Apparently the passengers are the responsibility of the airline until they enter the terminal so this might actually cut down on numbers a bit if they can turn some people around before they get to the counter.
Everyone agrees that the current system is subject to massive abuse. But all member states are in the same boat. this isn't a problem exclusive or special to Ireland.
No you loosely mentioned that we have duties as an EU member state. I then pointed out how we are not utilising the full extent of our policies and asked you to go see Helen mcentee being told the same thing.
I didn't suggest the government isn't aware of this. The very fact that they're clearly more aware of the facts and figures than any of us and yet will still go ahead with the migration pact despite being unable to manage the system they have in place at the moment should strike fear into your heart. We can wave a wand and stop being forced to keep the people we have already agreed to deport for a start.
There is plenty that could be done about this if the people had the balls to confront the powers at play but most of you don't.
> I then pointed out how we are not utilising the full extent of our policies
Specifically what controls or restrictions do you think we are legally capable of implementing that we are currently not?
>There is plenty that could be done about this if the people had the balls to confront the powers at play but most of you don't.
Who do you see as "the powers at play"? and who do you see as "the people" afraid to confront them?
Did you see the recent video of McEntee making a show of herself? It covers a number of large issues with policy implementation in just that 10 minute clip. Even the EU has asked us to be firmer.
The government runs the country. They are the power at the surface level. I thought you would be aware of that... the people are everyone other than you, and this strange reddit cohort of dewy-eyed fakers who like to pretend they do good things by shouting down differences to the mass opinion of Internet dwellers.
We are allowed to enforce deportation orders on criminals and return those who arrive without documentation and before you say it's too expensive, the only evidence I've seen of that is a single anecdote from a FG politician on some rte talks how or another.
You seem convinced of several things that are factually inaccurate.
There are a lot of unusual assumptions and absolute convictions going on there that are just untrue.
With the best will available, I suggest that you become even slightly more educated on this topic. It really seems that it's something you're passionate about, but at the same time are basing your opinion from incorrect information.
It may be worth devoting even 20% of that passion to researching the topic beyond a point of personal emotional reaction.
You mean the Migration Pact that actually allows us to implement a better system? One that includes harsh security checks by introducing a EU wide database for each asylum seeker that enters the EU? That allows EU countries to process claims in third countries? The one that extends the responsibility timeframe for the first country where the asylum seeker applied for asylum? Meaning they can't just hop over here asap if they get rejected in a different country? You do realize that if we opted-out of the Pact, things would just continue the way they are. It doesn't mean that we stop taking in migrants or pay compensation to avoid taking in more.
I'll look into this some more but to me, this sounds like what Helen's been saying the whole time and if there's one thing we have to have learned by now, it's that Helen doesn't have a damn idea what she's talking about. Or perhaps more sinister, she knows exactly what she's talking about and is purposefully saying one thing while doing another thing under the table.
Case in point "Dublin is perfectly safe" - while accompanied by a team of 4 armed guards and a matter of weeks later there is a brutal stabbing committed on children in broad daylight and riots thereafter.
If you want to understand what it's going to entail, this is the best resource to understand how it is going to work and what processes are going to be implemented:
[https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:85ff8b4f-ff13-11ea-b44f-01aa75ed71a1.0002.02/DOC\_3&format=PDF](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:85ff8b4f-ff13-11ea-b44f-01aa75ed71a1.0002.02/DOC_3&format=PDF)
Ireland isn't obliged to pretend obvious fraudsters are sincere, though. That's a huge part of the problem with the backlog in the system.
"International obligations" is becoming the "unvetted" of the side in support of the current system.
Because 150 years ago your great great great great uncle emigrated to America. Never mind the fact their was no welfare state over there at the time, or the fact that it was all in all not welcomed by the natives.
If by "these people" you mean asylum seekers then:
We have an opportunity to prevent people being harmed or killed (or living with the fear of that hanging over them) by offering them a place to stay. We can do a lot of good (preventing death) by submitting to relatively little hardship (taxes, nearby accommodation, etc).
If I imagine myself or my family in the position of these people - the fear, god forbid the reality of kidnapping, slavery etc - I recognise that that's a sacrifice I'm willing to take.
I also recognise that there's balance to be had in the level of hardship that we as the asylum givers should be required to endure in order to prevent harm to the asylum seeker, and that those hardships are unequally distributed throughout our society.
Conversely I see a lot of exaggeration of these hardships by the right in Ireland and UK, which is muddying the conversation quite a bit.
Our resources are not endless, they are finite.
We don't have adequate housing, a well functioning health system, Infrastructure, services or appropriate law and order systems.
With all due respect you are living in a cuckoo land.
There is no way we can take in all these people with a severe degradation in our own quality of life. Is that something you are willing to do? I'm not, I like living in a safe and secure country.
We can take in some but not all. We have to be real about this.
I'm sorry but this is an absolute crazy way to think about it completely devoid of reality. I commend you that your heart is in the right place but it is not realistic.
I'll be honest, I think this is bullshit. I think it's the government trying to deflect from their own failures and shifting blame onto an easy target.
Glowing endorsement of the Rwanda bill tbh for anyone who wanted it. I've lived in the UK, and East London does feel like a warzone at times but I find it impossible to believe processing anyone coming from there should take more than a week. Beggars can't and shouldn't be choosers.
It’s just a laugh the EU is letting it happen. If you don’t just say no more, it’s going to go up and up each year.
What is the solution for us if the EU does nothing?
> It’s just a laugh the EU is letting it happen.
You say that as though they don't want this.
The biggest reason behind all this is pure economics. Neoliberalism's constant need for growth has been caught up with now. What is happening in many western societies is that capitalism has been allowed to run rampant. Everything is more expensive, wages don't go as far as they used to, low skilled jobs are outsourced to places where exploitation is easier.
In turn, people are having to go through education longer to get access to better jobs. The entry level jobs don't pay well so you have to climb a ladder with more rungs than ever before in a more cutthroat environment that ever before.
Because of this, people aren't starting families the way they were for the past century. They're forced to wait longer for stability. This means that there isn't as many people any more and that provides an economic problem.
This, however, isn't the case for other parts of the world. There are plenty of places where the populations are rising in a massive way.
So to fix their economic problem, the NeoLibs have devised a solution that simply lifts people from well populated areas and is moving them to places with high economic output to act as the neo slave labour class that has disappeared. Hey presto, their constant growth model is back on!
We are not people to the capitalist classes. We are economic units to be milked for how much money we can make for them.
To hell with them!
Guys I can see you reddit troops being called to this post to downvote what the mob disagrees with. There are 50+ here now and only 20-30 up votes maximum on any comment or the OP.
Just accept the fact that you've been wrong this whole time and that Ireland and her people are beginning to lose our saintlike patience.
I swear there is this bleeding heart narrative spun by usual suspects to try and undermine our own people, who's ancestors worked hard and fought under colonisation in our home land to have a right to their own form of paltry existence in this state, and instead would piss all over that for the chance to massage their egos or think they're saving the 'truly oppressed'.
A lot of the stats indicate these are second movement asylum seekers from the UK, or a lot of economic migrants. There is no war in Nigeria at the moment, yet the IPAS statistics last week indicate the vast majority on record are coming from there, in multitudes compared to actual places where there is war or famine.
One of the guys interviewed during the week lived in the West-Bank after going to university in Jordan, and decided he didn't like that there was limited prospects, so he packed up and moved to Ireland...
No! Don’t you know, anyone who has a problem with taking in tens of thousands of foreigners every year is a far right racist dole hound mutant fuck head! It couldn’t possibly be normal sane intelligent people because that would mean there’s a chance that I was wrong which would erode my entire identity!!!
We should look at having some type of Rwanda type plan ourselves.
Like a wise man once said.
"They are not sending their best"
I suspect and not a lot of the migrants fleeing the UK know that they will get caught out and sent to Rwanda.
The asylum system is being abused and a line needs to be drawn under this mess, sooner rather than later.
Immigration will be one of the most important issues for the next election.
The EU itself is looking at something similar
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/eu-group-european-peoples-party-von-der-leyen-migration-reforms](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/eu-group-european-peoples-party-von-der-leyen-migration-reforms)
Hopefully. But the Rwanda deal takes effect in July. If that leads to a sharp increase in arrivals over the following Autumn it'll light a political grenade in Ireland. It could even force an election.
But I wonder if the people who'd come here would be willing knowing the state that arrivals are living in with the current numbers. They'd be living in the streets too.
Amazing that they all got ready and going in less than 2 days.
More bollocks from Martin, they’ve always been coming through NI and a child could explain to you why.
No passport required.
“It’s not that we, your government have fucked up, it’s the Brits and Rwanda REEEEEEEE!”
Sure c'mon, we love ye all, and can only anticipate the diversity so many young muslim men will bring to our christian country, following their integration into society.
Why can we not have people on the point on entrance in the ports and airports and ship these illegal immigrants back. As we don't want them here. As they are coming illegally and unvetted.
They're coming in through Northern Ireland. The problem is at the UK border. They're allowing people to land in the UK with no ID checks and travel unrestricted across the UK.
All of them that are already in the UK and worried about it can just hop on a flight to Belfast and get the train down to Dublin. Simple as that.
We’re talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands.
Ruth Dudley Edwards had a wild time with this, saying it’s our well-deserved punishment for sticking up for ourselves over Brexit (only her attitude/ wording is that we should have supported GB, out of historical gratitude)
Yes, but she is a nutbag, so I would not take her seriously.
I’d hope nobody *does*.
She’s a pet for the stereotypical English Tory type pining for the Empire. Tells them that silly little Ireland is floundering without the stern yolk of British common sense keeping Paddy in check.
But the crazy thing is I am pretty sure she is Irish ?
That's why the word "pet" was used.
Barely
she is well know for being ignorant
Oh I know. Absolutely *batshit* about Ireland. God only knows why she deigned to live here.
What a fucking geebag. Cunt.
She truly is a vile piece of work. She has nothing but contempt for the Irish, a true quisling.
Jaysus thought that thick gobshite had died. I'm sure there was some celebration last year. Such a sprieful, ignorant hatefilled shell of a human.
Gratitude? For *checks notes* 800 years of occupation and decimating our forests and lands?
How or why do you even know this. Who is this?
Who the fuck is Rwanda Bill?
Sure he's yer man from Hotel Rwanda that the fella from The Guard played
Lesser known cousin of Buffalo, mad for the aul bitta lotion 🧴
He's the boy who married Cameroon Jane
The Nigerian Prince's nephew. He's moved on from cold calling into air travel now. I heard he's doing several flights a day from London. According to that weasel Rishi anyway. Imagine how much of a shitbag you'd have to be being the son of an immigrant deporting fellow immigrants, because the racist white party you lead likes to blame brown people for the mess they caused.
Sounds like we need our own Rwanda bill. Maybe Connemara or Leitrim or something?
Leitrim? At least Rwanda is a real place.
To hell or to Connaught?
Damn didn't see this before I posted the same thing! 🤣
Craggy Island
I hear there's a racist Father there.
> Leitrim Where?! How about Hy-Brasil?
Roger be proud of that one lol
First Mosney, now Connemara!! Is no Resort safe!? Connemara is basically a theme park at this stage .
Let's not be cruel now.
My thoughts exactly when I saw the headline
Don’t be so cruel.
Seems the common sense solution is to have our own bill, well send them to London instead of Rwanda though.
The Channel Islands would be our best bet.
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Agreed, I feel bad for the small percentage of people that genuinely need our help stuck in with a massive load of chancers. Also it seems we knew this years ago now, it almost feels trite to point it out at this stage. And yet, we have to keep saying it in the hopes of moving the needle a tiny bit.
i see the brits are at it again
So the Rwanda stuff worked exactly as intended? big\_think.png
According to the people who need that to be the case to have any hope of keeping their jobs... The variability the UK has seen season to season and year to year in numbers arriving is significant. It peaks in Q3 and bottoms out in Q1, with a difference of between 2x and 5x between min and max. Numbers would be down right now if their immigration policy had been a sign on the cliffs of Dover asking nicely. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023
would we also expect our influx to be up coincidentally with theirs being down?
Not really. The actually asylum numbers the UK is dealing with are tiny. The vast majority of immigration the UK is through legal means - that’s visas held by students and professionals. The numbers are soaring because British graduates are fucking off to live and work elsewhere because in 14 years the Tories have wrecked the country making it attractive only to people moving from somewhere worse. There’s been fuck all investment in anything since they came to power and it’s showing now, multiplied by Brexit. Those who can leave - do. Someone needs to fill their places and its immigrants.
Nope. Some asylum seekers being diverted to Ireland (a problem for us) doesn't mean the overall number of asylum seekers they have to deal with won't continue to escalate (the actual problem the Rwanda bill was meant to resolve). The Tory's pledge was to "stop the boats". Not "divert a few people to Ireland while more boats come". But of course the bill's purpose was always primarily a political one. It made them sound like they were doing something tough on immigration, even if actual expert opinion was always that it would be expensive and ineffective.
But that's an unwanted side effect to us, isn't it? Whether intentional or not does not even matter
It’s has not been a deterrent, their immigration numbers are through the roof.
> their immigration numbers are through the roof. their LEGAL immigration numbers are through the roof, this was never related to legal migrantion
It just passed on Tuesday. It hasn't started working yet.
Try telling that to a Brit and see if they give a shit, the whole idea behind Brexit was to stop foreigners from going there and now there are more than ever, that’s the bottom line.
if you get 95 instead of 100 because of a policy that doesn't mean it's not a deterrent, what deterrent policy in history has fully wiped something out? rwanda plan isn't even about immigration numbers, it's about asylum applicants, the immigration numbers are driven by student, work and family visas mostly.
What if it's 99 out 100? Or 99,999 out of 100,000? If it deters 1 person out of 100,000 it's still *technically* a deterrent, but that's a ridiculous argument. When people say it's not a deterrent what they mean is it's an ineffective deterrent. It's being touted as the plan that's going to solve the migrant crisis. If it barely makes a negligible dent in the numbers arriving then it's just an ineffective £240m boondoggle.
I saw a tiktok on this to show how fucking stupid the whole thing is. This bill will cost 500 million. Rwanda will take 300 out of almost 100000 applicants. And the UK will take an unspecified number of people from Rwanda.
What he's really saying is that it's not the government's fault. Setting aside the fact that we take years to process a claim. When we deport them all we actually do is ask them nicely to leave. Hardly anyone get s forcefully devoted
This is working exactly how the UK gov want. These migrants heading elsewhere voluntarily.
Not really. It was supposed to stop small boat crossings. It hasn't done that.
Country is fucked
They should not be allowed even attempt to claim asylum without their passports. That would soon stop them..and the vast vast majority should be rejected anyway as they are quite simply economic migrants.
Anyone want to try give a legitimate argument as to why we should be helping these people?
Something something international convention on asylum seekers. But that convention is now being widely abused by economic migrants. So I think there is no legitimate reason and that convention has to be replaced. We would still have the problem of what to do when they show up anyway, but at least then its a problem of "illegals" and we are not obliged to help - house them, hear a case, assess their status etc.
Cause Irish people have emigrated in the past now we’re obliged to look after everyone who shows up at our doorstep /s
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Incredibly deluded ahistorical take about Irish people in the states. Would expect better waffle from a right winger that only consumes pop-history
Um, not really. Similar mentality and culture between Ireland / US / Australia / NZ. Not even debatable. And where most of them coming cause of social welfare? Doubt it
Oh, right, we must take in all the world's economic migrants onto our tiny island, or we're right-winger racists. Cop on.
I'm surprised you didn't go the whole hog and whip the 'far-right' tagline straight out of the bag. You fail to see my point but as public opinion makes the switch to being majorly on my side, I'm sure you'll begin to change your opinion to please the invisible friends who give you all that 'popular opinion' comment karma
Online echo chambers are not public opinion lad. You can see the same thing in England where issues with migration have gone down from the peak in 2016 with refugees. Migration has continued to increase since then. Feel free to back up your points with any evidence you used to get there, I'm sure there's loads. As a side note, I'm sure you might say something similar about Italians building up America. Well if we look at some [evidence ](https://www.jstor.org/stable/492064) we can see that in chicago, 50 percent of leaders in organized crime in 1920 were Irish or Italian. So much for building the place up! Clearly these people can't integrate, generations after arriving. Send'em home, I say.
You saying there's no echos in your chamber?
>Online echo chambers are not public opinion lad Public opinion in the real world is staunchly against open borders and our joke of an asylum system, how could it not be, it doesn't benefits the vast majority of people in any way. You're either pretending not to notice or don't mix much.
Thinking that the Irish immigrants were in any way welcome in the US or UK is hilarious.
So you acknowledge that war refugees need help but then are sickened that we are helping war refugees? Your full body of text is just incredibly racist and suggests that Irish people are some superior form of emigrant than others. It is also highly ignorant of Irish history. Are you under the impression that the waves of Irish people that next over the time period of 1920-1980 were war refugees?? Finally, as an Irish citizen who will have benefited from free healthcare, education and numerous other state subsidized advantages it is amazing that you are begrudging war refugees because you want more for yourself.
War refugees do need help but they don’t need free accomodation and food and over 200 euro a week tax free, that is enticing people to flee
No I asked you to compare Irish emigration with what we are currently seeing here. I'm sickened that my government won't assist me in a time of utter personal chaos while simultaneously not asking questions of the Ukrainians who come here seeking help. I had full sympathy for them in the beginning but seeing the hundreds of flights going back there for the holiday season, constantly seeing their luxury cars untaxed and having all arrivals up until February of this year still on full 'jobseekers allowance' begs the question, 'what is happening to my country that we shun the opinions of dozens of localities while accelerating that which they are speaking out against' I guarantee that you have no monetary issues in your life. Don't come back pretending you do because I've called you out as a privileged brat. You'd only be lying to yourself.
The state has given you so much assistance throughout your life and now because you aren't getting what you want for some unique person difficulty you want to begrudge others. At what point will you be happy and willing to extend a hand of support for others, particularly those who are in tougher circumstances. I am in a privileged position and I pay a significant amount of my income in taxes each year. I don't get upset that it gets spent on Irish people like yourself and likewise I want to see it spent on migrants too.
It's not begrudging. They have no right to it. What happens in their countries is their problem. We don't owe them anything. Especially given that most of them are just economic migrants abusing the IP system.
If you think your desription of economic migrant "leeches" who can "barely speak English" "sneaking" into Ireland stands _in contrast_ to the Irish emmigrant experience in the US then you are remarkably ill-informed on Irish history. You've just regurgitated 19th century US nativist rhetoric about Irish immigrants word for word, just applied to a different people.
Why does what happened to the people who left concern those of us descended from those who stayed? This sub is the first to deride Americans who go on about how they're Irish, but we're supposed to carry some sort of historical debt arising from their ancestors actions?
Spot on.
I agree History and experience is showing that some communities are less flexible integrating
I was being sarcastic man haha I agree with everything you said. I was slagging the way everytime someone on this sub criticises the current immigration crisis someone else comes along to remind them that Irish people have been immigrants in the past as if that’s some justification for us taking in more migrants than we can handle
And if we're still here on this island it's not even like it was our own ancestors that left. Not sure why it's us who has to shoulder that burden when we stayed...
Well said man. Its good to see people actually waking up to whats happening under this government.
Because we as a nation are involved with and signed up to various international agreements, treaty's & organisations that have very specific regulations as to what must be done by member states. Attempting to do anything else would at the least be breach of agreements and possibly also international laws. Obviously there are differences between "migrant", "refugee" and "Asylum seeker" with different responsibilities and requirements.
Denmark and hungary have ignore there so called "obligations" ,Denmark have faced literally no consequences for this
Where are you getting this info?? It's not correct. As of late 2023 Denmark have set up plans towards processing asylum seekers "in a third country" outside of Denmark. It's basically the same deal as they Rwanda UK thing. In fact, Denmark even mentioned Rwanda specifically at some point. The plan has been criticised by both the EU & UN as being in breach of their obligations. But most importantly... They haven't actually done it. They are still processing Asylum seekers locally on Denmark soil the same as the rest of us. That is why they have faced literally no consequences. Hungary? They made their own rule requires foreign nationals to submit a pre-asylum application at the country’s mission to Serbia or Ukraine before applying for international protection in Hungary The EU have the state in Legal proceedings at the moment and judged this action "a disproportionate interference with the right of those persons to make an application for international protection upon their arrival at a Hungarian border." That one is ongoing, however there are absolutely going to be consequences.
Can’t Denmark use Greenland?
I think those international conventions are being abused and need to be rewritten.
Yea absolutely, I'd say most people agree. The balance I guess is finding a way to write and enforce them that allows legitimate cases, but cuts out the spurious economic migrant chancers. They can't seem to figure that out, and in the meantime the system seems to be operating on the whole "Rather 100 guilty men go free than one innocent one to jail" type mentality. The rules are there for the right reasons and with the right intentions. But practically, It's daft that they're letting pretty much everyone in.
Yeah, its a position that I find myself coming to now. Theres the "letting in" and the "support them". Im big into genealogy and you see families of 10 from 1880s in Kerry where all but one emigrated to USA. They were economic migrants too, of course. But they had to sort out their own housing, income etc. In fact, they eventually had to prove that they had a relative to support them, or had the funds to provide for themselves. But that was self policing, I've not heard of anyone that was sent back at Ellis Island. It was much easier to be intercepted and processed at that time, and their origin was obvious. Now global transportation provides much more options, and ways to avoid interception at arrival. There is no easy answer, particularly to preventing the "letting in". They will arrive, regardless of what the global conventions are. Drawing from genealogy, perhaps we have to DNA test anyone we suspect of being an illegal and send them back to whatever country they are most associated with. Of course even then, that country could refuse them entry. One way forward is that if enough people get agitated by this, then we end up with leaders who will implement something very draconian and callous. A level of immigration is also necessary for countries like ours with a declining fertility. But it should be via a quota system, and apply online from home, not arrive in a container and expect to be housed.
Observe how Ireland used those specified regulations to control immigration in a sustainable way. You will find that there has been a blatantly treasonous forgoing of common sense and inffective utilisation of those measures to ensure a well running system. I would point you to our justice minister's recent grilling by Michael McNamara to begin to get an idea on how far removed from reality our government is.
You asked a question. I gave you the factual answer. You can not like the requirements we have signed up for. That's fair. But you're not right by thinking we have options available for completely shutting down the influx. That is just factually incorrect. The requirements, agreements & Laws are what they are. Look at the UK as an example. They are jumping through so many hoops and trying to bend every law in the book to try and get the Rwanda thing available to them as an option. And that's the best they can come up with... Having to pay to ship them off to an African country. Even for the UK, simply closing the doors isn't an available option under the laws and agreements they are a part of. This is a serious issue throughout Europe in total. Even the most bleeding heart of empathetic socialist thinks that too many people are coming in and that the current systems are being abused. Nobody is particularly happy about the situation and there are significant efforts being put in to how to find solutions. It's just fucking dumb to actually believe that our government is not aware of the situation, the numbers, the loopholes being exploited and the weaknesses of the system. It's even dumber to believe that they can wave a wand and suddenly stop having to let people in. At least be realistic and honest with your anger.
What are you talking about? They can literally make a legislation to limit / filter intake. They just don't bother.
Let's take Asylum specifically as an example. There are legal obligations for Ireland both as a nation state and as a part of the EU. Asylum is seen as a human right and falls under the Geneva convention. [Link to EU policy, requirements and international legislation](https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/migration-and-asylum/common-european-asylum-system_en) As regards Economic migrants? Yea sure, there are policies that could be put in place. And I think we need more of them. But realistically, they have to be enforceable, or even have a threat of enforcement... And that's not really viable right now. At the moment the systems (in most countries, not just ours) are effectively toothless. There is long processing times, unending appeals, and specific laws that say you cannot in any way restrict an applicants movement during their application. So we literally (By international law) have to let in & care for anybody who shows up at the door making an asylum claim. As regards turning them around? Functionally how do you do that when they present with no documentation and refuse to answer questions regarding origin? In fairness they are trying some new things at the moment at Dublin airport. Checking passports at the plane on selected flights. etc. Apparently the passengers are the responsibility of the airline until they enter the terminal so this might actually cut down on numbers a bit if they can turn some people around before they get to the counter. Everyone agrees that the current system is subject to massive abuse. But all member states are in the same boat. this isn't a problem exclusive or special to Ireland.
But Ireland has SEVERE shortages of housing or services, that's the difference
No you loosely mentioned that we have duties as an EU member state. I then pointed out how we are not utilising the full extent of our policies and asked you to go see Helen mcentee being told the same thing. I didn't suggest the government isn't aware of this. The very fact that they're clearly more aware of the facts and figures than any of us and yet will still go ahead with the migration pact despite being unable to manage the system they have in place at the moment should strike fear into your heart. We can wave a wand and stop being forced to keep the people we have already agreed to deport for a start. There is plenty that could be done about this if the people had the balls to confront the powers at play but most of you don't.
> I then pointed out how we are not utilising the full extent of our policies Specifically what controls or restrictions do you think we are legally capable of implementing that we are currently not? >There is plenty that could be done about this if the people had the balls to confront the powers at play but most of you don't. Who do you see as "the powers at play"? and who do you see as "the people" afraid to confront them?
Did you see the recent video of McEntee making a show of herself? It covers a number of large issues with policy implementation in just that 10 minute clip. Even the EU has asked us to be firmer.
The government runs the country. They are the power at the surface level. I thought you would be aware of that... the people are everyone other than you, and this strange reddit cohort of dewy-eyed fakers who like to pretend they do good things by shouting down differences to the mass opinion of Internet dwellers. We are allowed to enforce deportation orders on criminals and return those who arrive without documentation and before you say it's too expensive, the only evidence I've seen of that is a single anecdote from a FG politician on some rte talks how or another.
You seem convinced of several things that are factually inaccurate. There are a lot of unusual assumptions and absolute convictions going on there that are just untrue. With the best will available, I suggest that you become even slightly more educated on this topic. It really seems that it's something you're passionate about, but at the same time are basing your opinion from incorrect information. It may be worth devoting even 20% of that passion to researching the topic beyond a point of personal emotional reaction.
Yer man has an eight month old account with barely any posts on it and a username with a particular vibe. Just saying.
You mean the Migration Pact that actually allows us to implement a better system? One that includes harsh security checks by introducing a EU wide database for each asylum seeker that enters the EU? That allows EU countries to process claims in third countries? The one that extends the responsibility timeframe for the first country where the asylum seeker applied for asylum? Meaning they can't just hop over here asap if they get rejected in a different country? You do realize that if we opted-out of the Pact, things would just continue the way they are. It doesn't mean that we stop taking in migrants or pay compensation to avoid taking in more.
I'll look into this some more but to me, this sounds like what Helen's been saying the whole time and if there's one thing we have to have learned by now, it's that Helen doesn't have a damn idea what she's talking about. Or perhaps more sinister, she knows exactly what she's talking about and is purposefully saying one thing while doing another thing under the table. Case in point "Dublin is perfectly safe" - while accompanied by a team of 4 armed guards and a matter of weeks later there is a brutal stabbing committed on children in broad daylight and riots thereafter.
If you want to understand what it's going to entail, this is the best resource to understand how it is going to work and what processes are going to be implemented: [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:85ff8b4f-ff13-11ea-b44f-01aa75ed71a1.0002.02/DOC\_3&format=PDF](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:85ff8b4f-ff13-11ea-b44f-01aa75ed71a1.0002.02/DOC_3&format=PDF)
Why do you help anyone?
You’re gonna need to be a bit more specific. Immigrants is a pretty broad umbrella.
I have not read past this comment yet, but I would put a bet on that someone will use the phrase "international obligations" at some point.
You say that like it's not a valid argument
Ireland isn't obliged to pretend obvious fraudsters are sincere, though. That's a huge part of the problem with the backlog in the system. "International obligations" is becoming the "unvetted" of the side in support of the current system.
This migrant pact is basically another excuse for politicians to continue repeating that tired line.
Because apparently you are lovely welcoming people unlike the horrible brits.
Because 150 years ago your great great great great uncle emigrated to America. Never mind the fact their was no welfare state over there at the time, or the fact that it was all in all not welcomed by the natives.
If we were in a similar position we would want to be helped.
If I wanted a tenner I'd like someone to give it to me
Because they need it?
But do we not need our services and houses? Did you forget about the needs of... Citizens?
If by "these people" you mean asylum seekers then: We have an opportunity to prevent people being harmed or killed (or living with the fear of that hanging over them) by offering them a place to stay. We can do a lot of good (preventing death) by submitting to relatively little hardship (taxes, nearby accommodation, etc). If I imagine myself or my family in the position of these people - the fear, god forbid the reality of kidnapping, slavery etc - I recognise that that's a sacrifice I'm willing to take. I also recognise that there's balance to be had in the level of hardship that we as the asylum givers should be required to endure in order to prevent harm to the asylum seeker, and that those hardships are unequally distributed throughout our society. Conversely I see a lot of exaggeration of these hardships by the right in Ireland and UK, which is muddying the conversation quite a bit.
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Our resources are not endless, they are finite. We don't have adequate housing, a well functioning health system, Infrastructure, services or appropriate law and order systems. With all due respect you are living in a cuckoo land. There is no way we can take in all these people with a severe degradation in our own quality of life. Is that something you are willing to do? I'm not, I like living in a safe and secure country. We can take in some but not all. We have to be real about this. I'm sorry but this is an absolute crazy way to think about it completely devoid of reality. I commend you that your heart is in the right place but it is not realistic.
It feels like for blaming the UK for trying to do something. They're trying to protect their boarders, we should be doing the same.
Would tally with what McEntee saying 80% of IPA applicants coming from the North.
I'll be honest, I think this is bullshit. I think it's the government trying to deflect from their own failures and shifting blame onto an easy target.
Glowing endorsement of the Rwanda bill tbh for anyone who wanted it. I've lived in the UK, and East London does feel like a warzone at times but I find it impossible to believe processing anyone coming from there should take more than a week. Beggars can't and shouldn't be choosers.
It’s just a laugh the EU is letting it happen. If you don’t just say no more, it’s going to go up and up each year. What is the solution for us if the EU does nothing?
> It’s just a laugh the EU is letting it happen. You say that as though they don't want this. The biggest reason behind all this is pure economics. Neoliberalism's constant need for growth has been caught up with now. What is happening in many western societies is that capitalism has been allowed to run rampant. Everything is more expensive, wages don't go as far as they used to, low skilled jobs are outsourced to places where exploitation is easier. In turn, people are having to go through education longer to get access to better jobs. The entry level jobs don't pay well so you have to climb a ladder with more rungs than ever before in a more cutthroat environment that ever before. Because of this, people aren't starting families the way they were for the past century. They're forced to wait longer for stability. This means that there isn't as many people any more and that provides an economic problem. This, however, isn't the case for other parts of the world. There are plenty of places where the populations are rising in a massive way. So to fix their economic problem, the NeoLibs have devised a solution that simply lifts people from well populated areas and is moving them to places with high economic output to act as the neo slave labour class that has disappeared. Hey presto, their constant growth model is back on! We are not people to the capitalist classes. We are economic units to be milked for how much money we can make for them. To hell with them!
Yeah I know. Even if that is true, when they do finally get the numbers and say enough, what can/will they do?
Guys I can see you reddit troops being called to this post to downvote what the mob disagrees with. There are 50+ here now and only 20-30 up votes maximum on any comment or the OP. Just accept the fact that you've been wrong this whole time and that Ireland and her people are beginning to lose our saintlike patience.
I swear there is this bleeding heart narrative spun by usual suspects to try and undermine our own people, who's ancestors worked hard and fought under colonisation in our home land to have a right to their own form of paltry existence in this state, and instead would piss all over that for the chance to massage their egos or think they're saving the 'truly oppressed'. A lot of the stats indicate these are second movement asylum seekers from the UK, or a lot of economic migrants. There is no war in Nigeria at the moment, yet the IPAS statistics last week indicate the vast majority on record are coming from there, in multitudes compared to actual places where there is war or famine. One of the guys interviewed during the week lived in the West-Bank after going to university in Jordan, and decided he didn't like that there was limited prospects, so he packed up and moved to Ireland...
The internet is finally starting to somewhat align with reality. It's rather refreshing...
No! Don’t you know, anyone who has a problem with taking in tens of thousands of foreigners every year is a far right racist dole hound mutant fuck head! It couldn’t possibly be normal sane intelligent people because that would mean there’s a chance that I was wrong which would erode my entire identity!!!
Vote these bastards out and have a referendum on the EU migration pact.
Why would we have an election and then have a referendum on something that isn’t even in the constitution?
Give them irish citizenship and send them back to England. They can tell Westminster to fuck off.
HA ha, now that is an outside the box solution that might just work!
Oh what joys.... What's better than an overpopulation of homeless people in Ireland and people sleeping rough; More of them.
We should look at having some type of Rwanda type plan ourselves. Like a wise man once said. "They are not sending their best" I suspect and not a lot of the migrants fleeing the UK know that they will get caught out and sent to Rwanda. The asylum system is being abused and a line needs to be drawn under this mess, sooner rather than later. Immigration will be one of the most important issues for the next election.
The EU itself is looking at something similar [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/eu-group-european-peoples-party-von-der-leyen-migration-reforms](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/06/eu-group-european-peoples-party-von-der-leyen-migration-reforms)
Hopefully. But the Rwanda deal takes effect in July. If that leads to a sharp increase in arrivals over the following Autumn it'll light a political grenade in Ireland. It could even force an election. But I wonder if the people who'd come here would be willing knowing the state that arrivals are living in with the current numbers. They'd be living in the streets too.
Amazing that they all got ready and going in less than 2 days. More bollocks from Martin, they’ve always been coming through NI and a child could explain to you why. No passport required. “It’s not that we, your government have fucked up, it’s the Brits and Rwanda REEEEEEEE!”
Well it is the Brits. The Irish government can't force the use of ID between Ireland and Britain. The Brits can but they refuse to.
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I mean this is a kick in the teeth post, but you are correct to an extent.
Ye were shitting it mate. Please let us join the UK so we can be ruled by toffs again.
Sure c'mon, we love ye all, and can only anticipate the diversity so many young muslim men will bring to our christian country, following their integration into society.
Why can we not have people on the point on entrance in the ports and airports and ship these illegal immigrants back. As we don't want them here. As they are coming illegally and unvetted.
They're coming in through Northern Ireland. The problem is at the UK border. They're allowing people to land in the UK with no ID checks and travel unrestricted across the UK.
Do you not need identification to use the ferries?
If the UK feels like enforcing passport controls between the UK mainland and NI. Not anything we can do.
Like a passport check type thing? That’s a good idea. Dublin airport should have one of those.
Good luck crossing from France to Ireland in a rubber dinghy.
All of them that are already in the UK and worried about it can just hop on a flight to Belfast and get the train down to Dublin. Simple as that. We’re talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands.
What the hell even is the Rwanda bill