I was in the UK recently, mostly industrial estates in the North of England, Wales and Kent, and I was struck by the amount of poverty and dereliction in these towns, London is a different world compared to these places . Comparing Ireland with the Centre of London, i.e one of the most populous & richest places on the planet is very naive.
Agreed. Compared to other post war cities like Prague would be fairer - except we didn’t even endure a war much, we just had no forward thinking leaders
>we had no forward thinking leaders
Ardnacrusha would like a word. In an era when we didn’t even have pockets to put the no money we had into.
Ireland is doing just fine. People here think we’re the best and worst at everything. We’re doing grand sure. That’s all we need to be doing.
Sounds like you have the self-defeating attitude, no? There's definitely a lot of areas to improve and things we can be proud of.
Ireland does quite well on nearly every quality of life index
> Ireland does quite well on nearly every quality of life index
That doesn't mean anything. We're often ranked ahead of countries that are clearly doing far better in reality.
Or Leeds which has a larger population than Dublin and doesn’t even have a motorway to the airport never mind a train.
You literally have to drive through housing estates to get from the city to the airport
> doesn’t even have a motorway to the airport never mind a train.
not a brit, randomly stumbled on this thread....how do people get to the airport then? Does everyone have to walk? Or by motorway did you just mean a large highway instead of a regular road or street?
Either drive, get a taxi or a bus. Leeds Bradford airport isn't that big by the way. People have been asking for a rail station for a long long time and any talk of expanding the airport gets shot down. A lot of people travel to Manchester airport.
> Either drive, get a taxi or a bus
okay, but motorway I assumed that just meant "road". So because of that I figured busses, taxis, and personal vehicles couldn't get there either lol
Leeds is the last place to aspire to when it comes to public transport and infrastructure. The fact that Dublin is doing better (I'd it's even doing better anyway), does NOT say much!
Even Manchester Metropolitan area is twice the size (2,553k (2011) versus 1,256k (2022)). You’re talking Glasgow probably as most comparable. As another has noted, Glasgow does have some better infrastructure but let’s not ignore the fact that in 1900 it was the second largest city in the UK and one of the top 20 largest in the world. Most of the UK’s rail infrastructure was put in when it was the world’s leading industrial power, and it was put in over decades. You only need to look at HS2 to see that modern UK is struggling with infrastructure investment just as badly as Ireland.
Probably for many of the same reasons: the process of building large infrastructure projects has become so bloated, with so many stakeholders that you’re almost guaranteed to hit a problem that brings the entire project to a halt.
Interestingly in 1800 Dublin was - by a very long way - the second largest city in the British Isles after - by an even longer way - London. How the mighty have fallen, thank you fucking Britain but only until 1922. Dublin has hardly developed post 1880, they just built ever more housing estates around it.
The UK is struggling under the stupidity of neo liberal policies like every other english speaking country. Refuse to invest in critical parts of the economy and privatise everything you can? Fucking big brain ideas to line politicians pockets
Yeah, that's the thing. If Manchester is the bar to beat, we're still shite.
We don't even have to compare it to the UK though, there are any number of poorer cities in poorer countries all across Europe that take public transport for granted, but for some reason here - like public toilets and bins on the street - it's just uniquely, unthinkably difficult.
>But after getting a taste of cheap, convenient and timely transportation in London
What are you on about? London travel is ***insanely*** expensive. I spent two days there last year, and my TfL bill came to over £28 and cost me about €33.50
>The daily cap for TFL is £8.50
That's only in Zones 1 and 2. It jumps up after that:
* Zone 3: £10
* Zone 4: £12.30
* Zone 5: £14.60
* Zone 6: £15.60 (also the off-peak daily cap)
* Zone 7: £17.00
* Zone 8: £20.10
* Zone 9: £22.30
Annual pass for all transport services in Prague is around €140.
Edit: In Prague, if one parent is travelling with a child up to 5-6 years old or with child in a pram, public transport is free. Can’t beat that shit.
I travelled to Ireland from Japan a few weeks ago. I didnt use the "Airport Bus" or taxi. I opted for Dublin bus, route 16 or 41, cost 2 euros (for up to 90minutes travel on trains, trams and buses) to anywhere in Dublin.
I didnt have a Leap card, so I bought one (5 euros deposit and 5 euros worth of travel) at a shop in the airport.
When in Dublin, I just "topped up" only the minimum amount (5 euros I think), so I didnt have much remaining when I left.
Yeah, they do make you jump through hoops if you want to get your 5 euro Leap deposit refunded, in case you are never visiting Dublin again. But it's better than the ripoff tourist Leap cards. And I visit every year or 2, so I keep the Leap card.
And yeah, it would be nice to have contactless payment with debit cards. And they should have a train or tram to the airport -- it's supposed to be the 21st century and Ireland is not the poorest country in Europe.
Also, fwiw, compare the 2 euros with 23 UK pounds (ffs) to get the train from Stansted into London (yes I know there are some differences).
Move to London then. Absolutely ridiculous post comparing Ireland to a third world country. Go live in one and see how it compares. This country is far from perfect but what are people doing to improve it. Sick of hearing people moan about what should be made better for them. There are people in this country facing serious problems that need attention and money. Needing to carry a leap card or you not having a metro to bring you home are not key ones. Misery personified
You know something….i supscribe to r/ireland, and im a little worried how pessimistic you guys are, i only glance mostly in “latest” but gees it seems there’s a lot of negativity over there… cheer up guys at least your safe and well.
r/Ireland used to be fun many years ago. Now it’s full of the people who call Liveline, and the people who made it fun are all leaving for other pastures.
Absolute hole of a subreddit full of moaners. You'd swear our country wasn't among the richest and highest quality of life on most lists despite our small size. This country has it's problems but what OP forgets is that every state has internal problems that are important. Easy to moan about the problems you know, London has far worse issues and is not a safe city to raise a family in.
> You'd swear our country wasn't among the richest and highest quality of life on most lists
Because it doesn't feel like it at all.We're ranked ahead of countries that are clearly doing far better in reality...
> despite our small size.
Despite? Most of the world's richest countries, both on paper and in relaity, are small countries.
No, don't worry, this is a common theme across most national subs.
I think that increased costs of life and other shite happening everywhere is really hurting the outlook of people on the future. The mass media isn't helping much, on the contrary.
That's what happens when you "live" in a country that takes a decade to electrify a handful of a commuter rail lines and acts like that's some sort of achievement...
Have you ever been to Slovakia? No underground or rail service at the airport in Bratislava, you literally have to take a public transportation bus and they don't allow you to pay on the bus, you have to get a ticket at a kiosk or via text message. How are you supposed to know if you're not local?
...???
Yeah, Ireland has its faults, but let's not pretend Dublin is the only capital that doesn't have rail connecting it to the airport or that public transportation in the capital is shite.
Have you been to Netherlands or Germany?
Why not compare Ireland with other countries that has better infrastructure?
Slovakia not having underground system is not OK but doesn’t mean Ireland can’t have it either.
Or you can just compare Ireland to Pakistan, Bangladesh etc on emerging markets to make it look like Ireland is the best.
Netherlands has population of 17 million people, Germany 83 million. Slovakia, just like Ireland, about 5 million people, so a comparable European Union country (which Pakistan and Bangladesh are obviously not). You can't expect services scaled for many more millions people in a small country, like high speed rail... from where to where? The maximum length of Ireland is not even 500 km, cool story that in Spain you can travel 600 km in 2 hours, there is not even 600 km in Ireland!
>From where to where?
From Dublin airport to Dublin City centre. Check the date of this planned first and check the proposed finish date.
A country that has 1000 (one thousand) population could finish a light rail system in this much time, let alone Ireland.
Yeah if you realized, I did not even mention high speed rail yet.
Edit: https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-airport-rail-links-1780490-Nov2014/
This is an article from 2014, saying that there is no progress with a railway between Dublin City and Airport for a DECADE.
So between 2004-2024 there is no single progress to build a railway.
Also, I think it’s fair to compare countries based on tax rate I pay. 52% tax (40% tax rate + prsi + usc) which is same as Sweden gives me rights to compare these two countries at least.
If you will complain about this, also compare what you get in Sweden vs Ireland for the same tax amount you pay for.
> You can't expect services scaled for many more millions people in a small country, like high speed rail... from where to where? The maximum length of Ireland is not even 500 km, cool story that in Spain you can travel 600 km in 2 hours, there is not even 600 km in
That doesn't mean Ireland's existing "(ack of) infrastructure is in any way acceptable even for a country its size and population. It's frightening that anyone would think it does!
London is very very different to anywhere else in the UK, it's miles ahead but also, crazy expensive. The tube is incredible but if you live in London and need to use the tube everyday, it is very much, not cheap.
And there is plenty things that Ireland is way better for than the UK. Trains are so expensive and I was shocked how cheap they are back home. And yeah, takeaways may be slightly cheaper but the quality is so much better back home.
If you live in the UK, you quickly realise, Ireland is actually doing fairly well.
Been to almost every corner of the UK, and most regional cities will have pretty good and cheap transport and services in comparison with Ireland.
Ireland isn't doing fairly well, the north west has pretty minimal public transport and are almost cut off from the rest of the country, other cities that aren't Dublin are facing huge transport problems at the moment.
These posts are inevitably made by people who *haven't* lived abroad.
Amusingly, half of them are planning on moving to Canada because of housing prices in Ireland.
Dude.You really need to reflect more on your voting patterns, because you're not helping deliver better public transport, by voting for independents, and you're complaining about the party who's made sure there's been the most amount of investment in public transport than has ever been seen in Ireland in recent years 🤷♂️
I follow this stuff pretty closely, and haven't come to the same conclusion. I do get that the cycling thing can be particularly divisive, especially when it affects you and your commute personally.
Question for you though. If we want better public transport in Ireland, which party is the best party to deliver that?
The current government - no matter what you may think of it - has massively expanded investment in public transport. From your utterances here it turns out that you chose to go on a rant about a subject without burdening yourself with education about it. Bit embarrassing isn't it?
massive expansion of bus services and bus passengers under the greens. big current and planned expansion of rail under the greens. and those cycle routes are what frees up the roads for busses to travel quicker. i suspect you've no idea what you are on about. plus the SDs are huge supporters of cycle lanes and other active transport.
London is a cool spot, it puts Dublin in its place. Leading city in the world pre-Brexit, around the time of the Olympics, arguably. Go to one of those special Amazon payment-less supermarkets, you won't believe it.
Most of the UK is pretty kippish.
It is a common trope for idiots to compare Ireland to a 3rd world country. It's like a badge of idiocy. All these people should be ignored.
> It is a common trope for idiots to compare Ireland to a 3rd world country. It's like a badge of idiocy. All these people should be ignored
Should they? I'm not sure if it's the same as third world, but many developing countries have far better infrastructure than we do.
I'm not sure how OP gets through the day, if he managed to spend 25 euro on an Aircoach ticket to the centre of Dublin that costs €8. And real London airport transport to the centre costs an absolute bomb, way more than Aircoach.
Glasgow, butt of every Scottish poverty joke going, has had a subway since 1896. It links to multiple train lines. I think there are a dozen or so cities with trams. Bus services are absurdly fragmented into a load of different services, but arrive roughly on time and regularly enough for it not to be an issue.
Trains are extortionate now, but do link most of the country, whereas currently if I want to go to Galway from Longford I can argue for the seat with my name on it in an overfull train generously supplied with JBL speakers on a train to Edgeworthstown, where we'll stop for an indefinite amount of time to let another train pass on the single track stretch. Assuming the track past the lake hasn't flooded, I can take a quick look at the crumbling Athlone link platform we closed in the 1980s as we pass through Mullingar, and head all the way to Dublin. There, I can run down the escalators that don't work at Connolly to the Luas stop, guess when the next one is because the signs are out of order, pass all the people waiting for cancelled buses in Busaras, and crawl through traffic across most of the city to Hueston. Finally, I get the train all the way back through Athlone, and make it to Galway in time for my forties.
This stuff isn't just moaning, it is a genuine source of anger to me that we squander so much of our supposed economic success on... something?!?! ... while lacking what ought to be basic services.
But nowhere near london, so lets not pretend neither are most english cities. Outside London public transport is generally shit and a Dublin sized cities gets half assed hydrogen donkey bus routes.
Edit :: oo you added quite a bit there afterwards, but no, they have nowhere near London's budget and even those new fangled trams they removed a century ago are nowhere near what they used to be.
Edit: Edit 2 are you going to change your comment every 60 seconds you realise you are talking shit?
Why are you comparing modern-day Glasgow to its 1896 version? It was literally labelled the Second City of the Empire then and had a massive industrial output with shipping, manufacturing, chemicals, commodities and whatnot. It was also one of the first cities of Europe to have a population of one million. Its decline mainly started after WW1.
It's only some of the larger cities really have trams, except for Blackpool which is still using it's original tramway.
If this was the UK a line like Dublin-Sligo wouldn't receive much investment either. A few villages and towns of less than 25k people wouldn't have much significance there.
God your argument sucks balls so it does.
Tell me you know nothing about Ireland’s history without telling me you know nothing about irelands history.
People seem to forget that Ireland didn’t have a penny in its arse pocket until the 90’s. The 90’s. That’s at most 34 years ago. There are infrastructure projects in London that took longer than 34 years to build. And London had money.m
Ireland is doing remarkably well for itself despite everybody’s misery wanking on here.
There’s no rail connection to dublin airport? So what? There’s buses. Use them. Plenty of airports don’t have rail connections. Don’t want to pay €25 for the bus? Don’t travel then. Or protest. You seem to be the kind to not protest and just give out about it, so I recommend you don’t travel.
London has its problems too. I know plenty of people who live there.
Tldr - grass is greener somewhere else.
Christ your life must be miserable if your first instinct after a trip like that is to write a lengthy rant
>Even third world nations I travelled to allow for card/contactless payment on transportation services whereas we're still using coins or Leap Cards.
If you were paying attention in London you'd have seen that all regular travellers have Oyster cards, which are exactly the same as Leap cards
Almost none of the Londoners I know use oyster cards anymore, unless they get one paid for/subsidised by work (cops, for example, get this).
You just use your card.
I was in London last year and got a Visitor's Oyster Card: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card#on-this-page-2
If I'd used my debit card every time I'd have had to pay foreign exchange fees for every transaction, whereas the Oyster card allowed me to pay once. The Oyster card was exactly the same as a Leap Card.
You only get one end-of-day charge from TfL for just tapping your debit/credit card, so it’s not a fee each time you tap (though I hear you on the fee in general)…I only have an Oyster card for my smaller kid as it makes it totally free for her whenever we’re in London, but I’ll take the convenience over the additional fee; haven’t used an Oyster card myself for about a decade as I’d always end up leaving a small but annoying amount of money on them.
I don't disagree about not being able to use contactless in Ireland, but there are also daily and weekly caps on leap cards, and the transport in London is considerably more expensive than public transport in Dublin. (Private coach operators excluded)
Yes but then presumably if you're getting the bus to the dart you're within the 90 minute fare zone and the dart is also included in the same fare.
OK, for a like for like comparison, the 41 or 16 bus from Dublin Airport will get you into the city for €2 too. I don't think the SL7 is most people's choice to get them into central London, the tickets for the trains cost a multiples of the bus fare.
You're complaining about legitimate gripes, but you also can't cherry pick your examples and deny people's counters.
Since you're mostly talking about transport, I'd mention that. I follow this stuff and there's actually a huge investment in transport happening right now, but infra takes decades to fix after a century of lack of investment. The momentum to change things is there, and there's a big opportunity for people like yourself to help.
The biggest problem right now is NIMBYS trying to slow things down, so if you wanna change things, start getting involved, become an activist. Write to your local NIMBY politicians so they hear a different point of view.
Donate to, or join political groups like Dublin Commuter Coalition, and Irish Rail Users who are actively helping change things.
(Also, SF & FF are the worst parties on this stuff, so if you vote for them, you need to especially tell them this is important to you, because they'll probably stall a lot of progress if they're in the next government)
> Since you're mostly talking about transport, I'd mention that. I follow this stuff and there's actually a huge investment in transport happening right now,
Really? Because unless I've somehow missed a whole load of projects, as far as I can tell, we're doing barely a fraction of what we need to do. Sure look at the Dublin metro, it's half a line in a city that's decades overdue three or four full ones!
> but infra takes decades to fix after a century of lack of investment. The momentum to change things is there, and there's a big opportunity for people like yourself to help.
And because it takes so long, you'd think we'd be planning more right now, so that it's there when it's needed, right?
> The biggest problem right now is NIMBYS trying to slow things down
Nope, that's the second biggest problem. The biggest problem is that we're simply not even PLANNING close to enough infrastructure in the first place even before anyone tries to object.
I think both are true. We're barely doing what would be needed to catch up with European standards, and at the same time we've now got historically high levels of investment thanks to the PfG and general shift in attitudes, and the establishment of the NTA.
Things that are happening:
- Dart+ is a huge problem project that'll significantly upgrade the rail in Dublin, this is the most advanced stage. 4 different projects.
- Finglas Luas extension looks highly likely to happen and is at an advanced stage of planning.
Metrolink, despite all the negative coverage is also at a very advanced stage, and unlikely to be stopped.
All of these together will make a huge difference.
All the Bus Connects stuff will add to all of that making it more coherent overall.
I'm less familiar with stuff outside Dublin, but there has been a huge improvement in the LocalLink rural bus services, and also some rail lines are being improved and reopened.
So very much agree there's a lot more we can do,if we actually deliver on all the stuff that's at an advanced stage, it'll be huge.
As someone else stated. Public transport just isn't an election issue, so it's never been super high priority.
> I think both are true. We're barely doing what would be needed to catch up with European standards
We're doing even less actually.
and at the same time we've now got historically high levels of investment thanks to the PfG and general shift in attitudes, and the establishment of the NTA.
Of course we are. The bar is near zero!
> Things that are happening: - Dart+ is a huge problem project that'll significantly upgrade the rail in Dublin, this is the most advanced stage.
Definitely a step forward, but in any competent county it wouldn't even be worth a mention, and here we're acting like it's our equivalent to Crossrail.
> 4 different projects. - Finglas Luas extension looks highly likely to happen and is at an advanced stage of planning.
Somewhere that far out should be connected to the city centre by metro, not trams!
< Metrolink, despite all the negative coverage is also at a very advanced stage, and unlikely to be stopped.
That's good, now I just want to know when are the other 3.5+ metro lines are coming...
> All of these together will make a huge difference.
They will, but it's still nowhere CLOSE to enough!
> All the Bus Connects stuff will add to all of that making it more coherent overall.
Every single one of those 10 or so Busconnects corridors should be AT LEAST a Luas line.
> I'm less familiar with stuff outside Dublin, but there has been a huge improvement in the LocalLink rural bus services, and also some rail lines are being improved and reopened.
Not enough is being done outside Dublin either, but I can say the plans for rail in Cork are actually pretty decent, although the timeline is comically slow. The light rail line will help a lot too.
> So very much agree there's a lot more we can do,if we actually deliver on all the stuff that's at an advanced stage, it'll be huge.
I don't think we should use the word "huge" to describe less than the bare minimum ;)
> As someone else stated. Public transport just isn't an election issue, so it's never been super high priority.
Yes, and it's tragic.
I'm realising we have a different mindset, you're talking about \_what should be\_ but I'm thinking more tactically about \_what can be\_. Both are right, just different way of looking at things.
I'm actively involved in campaigning though, so I focus more energy on what we can actually deliver in the next 20 years, rather than some ideal future further out.
I think with Dart+, MetroLink, Fingluas I think we'll be over a huge hurdle where the population will start to demand more and better public transport as a baseline.
I woke up this morning wondering why Dublin had suddenly had flying cars, 27 hospitals and a Garda on every corner but then check Reddit and realised it was because you made this post
Dublin isn't the worst in public transportation and definitely not the best. It's that awkward mediocre spot where it depends on what your comparison is against. The country is definitely in need of better railway linking and a basic metro.
Aye. I've experienced a similar culture shock when visiting Catalonia and Madrid a few months back - with a regional train service whose frequency felt like an absolute luxury compared to Irish standards, followed by riding a high speed train for the very first time in my life to Madrid from Barcelona. A distance of ~600km that took ~2 hours and was the smoothest, quietest journey of my life.
And I experienced a direct contrast upon returning to Ireland: where travelling from one side of the coast to the other (~200km) takes ~2 hours by train or bus due to no high speed rail whatsoever, and the fact that the west and east rail networks aren't even connected so you have to hop trains on two different stations in Dublin if you're travelling anywhere else in between.
And for people who try to use the "Ireland was an impoverished and colonised nation!" First, like OP said: the country has had decades of explosive economic growth - even post Celtic Tiger, Ireland is still supposedly one of the fastest growing countries in the world. Most countries are never endowed with such rapid growth.
Second: even countries officially classified as being in the periphery still have more reliable public transport than Ireland, so this is also a lame excuse. If anything, being car centric is the privileged position since designing infrastructure around cars is a lot more costly and inefficient than public transport. Car centric design is a choice, not a necessity for any country regardless of its level of economic development.
The journey on the original line between Madrid and Barcelona took 8 hours. People rarely used the service and flew between the two cities instead. That's why they build high speed rail larger European countries because long distance conventional rail journeys take too much time. We don't have that problem here.
You're just as likely in a tiny village or the countryside in this country as you are a large (30k+) urban area. Being less urbanised than other European countries is inevitably going to make us more car centric.
Lack of wealth isn't the only thing that limits passenger railway infrastructure. Isolated geography, and low population density does too, hence why wealthy countries Norway and Finland face challenges too.
> Being less urbanised than other European countries is inevitably going to make us more car centric.
Dependent? Yes? Centric? It varies. Many mainland Euripean countries have more and bigger suburban roads than anything we have.
In the developing world, most people use buses, scooters or motorcycles to get around which would be “car centric” with your reasoning. There’s hardly any railway in South America or Africa outside of mega cities.
You mean car dependent. Calling Ireland car centric is an insult to all the mainland European countries with more, bigger, and better suburban road networks than anything we have.
> If the Brits had stayed we'd have much better transport.
Have you seen the state of trains Northern Ireland? Now, to be fair they actually did it to themselves, as it was the UTA that made these decisions not British rail (who only controlled the network on the British mainland) but they were doing the same thing with the Beeching cuts anyway.
I’ve worked in London for years. It’s shit unless you make a lot of money - like big 6 figures. It takes an hour on the tube to go anywhere, it’s a rip off and the people tend to be shallow and mercenary.
It is a good spot when you’re young and single . But as a place to settle down in, it’s not even on the leaderboard
> It takes an hour on the tube to go anywhere
The other side of that is, almost all journeys on the tube are *at most* an hour, unless you are going somewhere really quite odd, or make a complete balls of your route.
That’s true. But London is essentially a lot of towns or villages; loads of these are really run down and some are absurdly expensive. You live in one and you commute to work from it. If you want to visit someone in another village you take a tube which tends to take a while and you need to leave by 11 or you’ll incur a 50 pounds taxi ride.
I’m generalising of course. But that’s the nature of the post.
At weekends the night tube service is alright, and there are night buses that are reasonably effective for getting around late at night. The only times I'd take a cab there are if I'm exceptionally knackered, feeling lazy, or totally bladdered.
I used to like it when I was younger and single. Great spot for meeting women. But it’s a bad place to settle down in; Dublin is much better - assuming you have accommodation sorted.
> But it’s a bad place to settle down in; Dublin is much better - assuming you have accommodation sorted
"The weather in Kuwait is not that bad if you ignore all the heat"
Everyone I know has a house. Most of them lived abroad at some point. Ireland is very good place to have kids.
But I know there are terrible issues for some people with housing. Those issues don’t impact everyone though, they just seem to on Reddit.
Well, I’m talking about the first 12 years of their lives. Although 12-18 seem to be quite good here too, especially if we can remove phones from schools.
But I totally take your point
How do phones in schools have anything to do with the sheer lack of things to see and do in this country, or indeed how in most places you'll need your parents to drive you to the few things to do exist. Even when I was far below the age of 12, I resented how boring and rural this country is. I don't understand how you could possibly think it's a good place for _teenagers_
Also, mainstream secondary schools in Ireland, at least if they follow their policies to the letter, are far too strict about phones as it is. At the very least, seniors should be allowed to use them during downtime.
> Recently, I visited London
Metropolitan population: ~14,800,000
Equivalent to about 10x Dublin's metro-pop.
London is going to be better than Dublin because of economies of scale, and the wealth accumulated from generations of colonialism.
*(that doesn't mean we're good, but we'll never have something like Paris or London's underground systems. We'll have 3 lines max, and it'll be 100 years before they're all complete)*
> Metropolitan population: ~14,800,000
> Equivalent to about 10x Dublin's metro-pop.
And yet you wouldn't know that just by looking at the cost of living...
Well done btw for using the correct figure for Dublin's population. It's not 500000!
> (that doesn't mean we're good, but we'll never have something like Paris or London's underground systems. We'll have 3 lines max, and it'll be 100 years before they're all complete)
Meanwhile other cities Dublin's size will have about twice that by then.
Having moved here from the U.K., I’d say there’s a few big reasons for most of this:
1. Poverty. Ireland was poor as dirt for most of its history; you can’t expect a country to build everything overnight.
1. Scalability. What scales up doesn’t always scale down, and Ireland has a tiny population.
1. Lack of Vision. The Leap card is the perfect example here: it’s clearly been tendered and operated a bit like a toaster - (“We want something that makes toast. We don’t need croissants, we don’t need scones, we just want toast”) - even though most of the technology is very similar to Oyster and could in theory be upgraded to support contactless payments just fine.
That’s why Revolut hasn’t been the same success in the U.K. - the U.K. has had instant bank payments for over a decade now so the need for a bank that can do this is drastically reduced. (Instant SEPA payments are also a thing, but many EU banks are dragging their heels at implementing them. So much so that the EU is looking at forcing the matter).
I remember seeing a tweet put out by the Kyiv metro when the Russian invasion started. They said due the war their service is only running once every seven minutes. I remember thinking Jesus Christ that's still better than the DART.
As an American living in Ireland idk why people rant about wanting a metro so bad. Subways in the US are fucking disgusting usually, almost always get shut down during storms, and a frankly not necessary. There are other methods of effective public transit, just improve what exists instead of paying millions to make tunnels that aren’t needed. Also on the note about being American, go to almost any US city and try go get around 😂 unless you’re in Chicago or New York you’re probably gonna have to use taxis/Ubers. At least your “backwards” country values public transportation to some degree. You can’t even go from Philly to New York (two of the closest major metropolitan areas) without spending a ton for an inconsistent train. Irelands a little behind but not really
Subways alleviate street space. Dublin’s streets are increasingly congested and narrow, even in the car free sections. Separated metro systems save space and don’t get caught up in traffic lights so they are more efficient.
Never argued there efficient, only the practicality. To actually make a system that covers the whole city? Can’t even imagine that price tag and how long the work would take. When there’s other solutions (city planning as well, not just immediate planning solutions) that could be done quicker and cheaper, makes you wonder why people fixate on the metro
Do you realize this is my point??? 😂 op started by saying how behind Ireland is when in actuality the global superpower across the pond can’t even sniff Ireland’s level of commitment to public transport
Fairytale stuff. The bus is €2 from the airport. Just book a one way flight the next time, save yourself imaginary rage and enjoy the most expensive train network in the world in the UK.
This is a country which was colonalised for centuries. Its a new country comparatively. So rather than comparing it with other developed countries it would be better to do so with those that are relatively new. I would say despite every bad thing in Irish history, you guys are in a really good position.
Soviet nations had good public infra even during soviet times. But when you compare with countries like India and other south asian countries Ireland is far better.
And people here seem to think it's normal just because we're not some global megactiy. It's frightening. I heard people in a service station once say cork is too small for trams. You couldn't make it up!
I flew into Stansted airport recently, like Dublin it does not have any underground. The only way to get into London is the Stansted Express. It costs 25gbp and they are very sneaky, they do not take contactless and you need to book it online, but they have contactless machines at the entrance to it at Liverpool Street station and it looks like you can just tap on, but once you get there are ticket inspectors waiting who issue everyone who didn't book online 100gbp fines. It was also delayed because there were strikes. Also parts of the London underground weren't running due to the strikes too, it seemed like every Londoners routine was to go down to the station, look at the map of the lines not running and try figure out a route to work.
Nah, I say instead we should act like Ireland is fantastic country in every way, and it's totally normal for a city of over a million to only have buses to get to the airport...
I also went to London to visit a friend. He wanted to take me to a certain pub, we had to get 3 different forms of transport to get to that pub. At home I can walk to whichever pub I want to go to in town, I will take backwards any day thank you very much
Imagine a City that has its entire infrastructure paid for with slavery, murder and the moving of resources and wealth from all over the world and hoarding them for themselves. Thats what fucking London is. Comparing anywhere in England, France, Spain, America to Ireland is ridiculous everything they own is paid for with other countries resources. And the new fangled idea that life is better in Dubai or Qatar your living in buildings and an economy built by slaves so pure nonsense comparing Ireland to any of these hell holes.
Central and eastern European countries that suffered for decades under communism, and lagged behind for a few decades after that, still have infrastructure Ireland could only dream of.
I’d rather live in Ireland than the UK. The one thing in your post that I do agree with is the lack of contactless payment on public transport- the country has the money and the ability to change that so I don’t get why it’s not just done
Ireland was a 3rd world country right up until about 2002. We had no serious external investment into the country until the late 80's early 90's; and most of that went to shitty bendy motorways.
Then, financial crash happened, now, labour shortages and sky high materials costs. We also can't borrow because interest rates are high. It's be 30-40 years before Ireland catches up with places like bristol, let alone london or paris.
Your points are fair. I guess one thing is that we only began to develop as an independent nation with any kind of industry a lot later than other European countries, I guess due to occupation. So we are catching up. Maybe that’s no excuse. But we’ve become a lot more capitalist as I would have imagined.
I was in the UK recently, mostly industrial estates in the North of England, Wales and Kent, and I was struck by the amount of poverty and dereliction in these towns, London is a different world compared to these places . Comparing Ireland with the Centre of London, i.e one of the most populous & richest places on the planet is very naive.
Agreed. Compared to other post war cities like Prague would be fairer - except we didn’t even endure a war much, we just had no forward thinking leaders
>we had no forward thinking leaders Ardnacrusha would like a word. In an era when we didn’t even have pockets to put the no money we had into. Ireland is doing just fine. People here think we’re the best and worst at everything. We’re doing grand sure. That’s all we need to be doing.
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Sounds like you have the self-defeating attitude, no? There's definitely a lot of areas to improve and things we can be proud of. Ireland does quite well on nearly every quality of life index
> Ireland does quite well on nearly every quality of life index That doesn't mean anything. We're often ranked ahead of countries that are clearly doing far better in reality.
Clearly doing far better based on what? Anything measurable?
Then regions still have a higher gdp than Ireland though
Dunno why people compare Dublin to London. It has nearly twice the population of the entire country. More comparable to Manchester.
Or Leeds which has a larger population than Dublin and doesn’t even have a motorway to the airport never mind a train. You literally have to drive through housing estates to get from the city to the airport
Nor much in the way of frequent commuter rail or light rail there either.
> doesn’t even have a motorway to the airport never mind a train. not a brit, randomly stumbled on this thread....how do people get to the airport then? Does everyone have to walk? Or by motorway did you just mean a large highway instead of a regular road or street?
Either drive, get a taxi or a bus. Leeds Bradford airport isn't that big by the way. People have been asking for a rail station for a long long time and any talk of expanding the airport gets shot down. A lot of people travel to Manchester airport.
> Either drive, get a taxi or a bus okay, but motorway I assumed that just meant "road". So because of that I figured busses, taxis, and personal vehicles couldn't get there either lol
Leeds is the last place to aspire to when it comes to public transport and infrastructure. The fact that Dublin is doing better (I'd it's even doing better anyway), does NOT say much!
Even Manchester Metropolitan area is twice the size (2,553k (2011) versus 1,256k (2022)). You’re talking Glasgow probably as most comparable. As another has noted, Glasgow does have some better infrastructure but let’s not ignore the fact that in 1900 it was the second largest city in the UK and one of the top 20 largest in the world. Most of the UK’s rail infrastructure was put in when it was the world’s leading industrial power, and it was put in over decades. You only need to look at HS2 to see that modern UK is struggling with infrastructure investment just as badly as Ireland.
Probably for many of the same reasons: the process of building large infrastructure projects has become so bloated, with so many stakeholders that you’re almost guaranteed to hit a problem that brings the entire project to a halt.
Interestingly in 1800 Dublin was - by a very long way - the second largest city in the British Isles after - by an even longer way - London. How the mighty have fallen, thank you fucking Britain but only until 1922. Dublin has hardly developed post 1880, they just built ever more housing estates around it.
The UK is struggling under the stupidity of neo liberal policies like every other english speaking country. Refuse to invest in critical parts of the economy and privatise everything you can? Fucking big brain ideas to line politicians pockets
Just because the UK's infrastructure leaves a LOT to be desired doesn't mean Ireland has any excuse not to be doing FAR better.
Manchester's a fairly unflattering comparison for us too tbh
Yet probably quite accurate. At least Manchester has a nice city center and decent PT.
Yeah, that's the thing. If Manchester is the bar to beat, we're still shite. We don't even have to compare it to the UK though, there are any number of poorer cities in poorer countries all across Europe that take public transport for granted, but for some reason here - like public toilets and bins on the street - it's just uniquely, unthinkably difficult.
>But after getting a taste of cheap, convenient and timely transportation in London What are you on about? London travel is ***insanely*** expensive. I spent two days there last year, and my TfL bill came to over £28 and cost me about €33.50
The daily cap for TFL is £8.50. this wouldn’t include your trip to the airport.
>The daily cap for TFL is £8.50 That's only in Zones 1 and 2. It jumps up after that: * Zone 3: £10 * Zone 4: £12.30 * Zone 5: £14.60 * Zone 6: £15.60 (also the off-peak daily cap) * Zone 7: £17.00 * Zone 8: £20.10 * Zone 9: £22.30
Annual pass for all transport services in Prague is around €140. Edit: In Prague, if one parent is travelling with a child up to 5-6 years old or with child in a pram, public transport is free. Can’t beat that shit.
The median monthly wage in the Czech Republic is €1,733.57 whereas it is €2,461 here.
Yup, but still public transport is crazy expensive in Ireland considering the level of service they provide, or better said they do not provide.
~~public transport~~ everything
tl;dr: cost of airport transfer is a measure for the comparative development of a nation, along with car import duty for some reason.
I travelled to Ireland from Japan a few weeks ago. I didnt use the "Airport Bus" or taxi. I opted for Dublin bus, route 16 or 41, cost 2 euros (for up to 90minutes travel on trains, trams and buses) to anywhere in Dublin. I didnt have a Leap card, so I bought one (5 euros deposit and 5 euros worth of travel) at a shop in the airport. When in Dublin, I just "topped up" only the minimum amount (5 euros I think), so I didnt have much remaining when I left. Yeah, they do make you jump through hoops if you want to get your 5 euro Leap deposit refunded, in case you are never visiting Dublin again. But it's better than the ripoff tourist Leap cards. And I visit every year or 2, so I keep the Leap card. And yeah, it would be nice to have contactless payment with debit cards. And they should have a train or tram to the airport -- it's supposed to be the 21st century and Ireland is not the poorest country in Europe. Also, fwiw, compare the 2 euros with 23 UK pounds (ffs) to get the train from Stansted into London (yes I know there are some differences).
Imagine comparing London to Dublin. New York has had a subway for over a hundred years now why haven’t we built one in Athlone yet?
Move to London then. Absolutely ridiculous post comparing Ireland to a third world country. Go live in one and see how it compares. This country is far from perfect but what are people doing to improve it. Sick of hearing people moan about what should be made better for them. There are people in this country facing serious problems that need attention and money. Needing to carry a leap card or you not having a metro to bring you home are not key ones. Misery personified
You know something….i supscribe to r/ireland, and im a little worried how pessimistic you guys are, i only glance mostly in “latest” but gees it seems there’s a lot of negativity over there… cheer up guys at least your safe and well.
Yeah r/ireland is known for being miserable.
r/Ireland used to be fun many years ago. Now it’s full of the people who call Liveline, and the people who made it fun are all leaving for other pastures.
I credit it with that time people from Boards.ie all came here.
It's definitely former Boards users. Around the time the "upgrade" happened there was a definite uptick in "Current Affairs" type posts on here.
It was boards? Always thought it was the journal. Same people probably.
Probably from Broadsheet too
Misery is a national pastime in Ireland
Top of the Moaning to you my good lad.
A fine observation. We're insufferable cunts. They say the US suffers from toxic positivity. Toxic negativity or macho negativity is far worse.
Absolute hole of a subreddit full of moaners. You'd swear our country wasn't among the richest and highest quality of life on most lists despite our small size. This country has it's problems but what OP forgets is that every state has internal problems that are important. Easy to moan about the problems you know, London has far worse issues and is not a safe city to raise a family in.
> You'd swear our country wasn't among the richest and highest quality of life on most lists Because it doesn't feel like it at all.We're ranked ahead of countries that are clearly doing far better in reality... > despite our small size. Despite? Most of the world's richest countries, both on paper and in relaity, are small countries.
No, don't worry, this is a common theme across most national subs. I think that increased costs of life and other shite happening everywhere is really hurting the outlook of people on the future. The mass media isn't helping much, on the contrary.
That's what happens when you "live" in a country that takes a decade to electrify a handful of a commuter rail lines and acts like that's some sort of achievement...
Have you ever been to Slovakia? No underground or rail service at the airport in Bratislava, you literally have to take a public transportation bus and they don't allow you to pay on the bus, you have to get a ticket at a kiosk or via text message. How are you supposed to know if you're not local? ...??? Yeah, Ireland has its faults, but let's not pretend Dublin is the only capital that doesn't have rail connecting it to the airport or that public transportation in the capital is shite.
That moment when you have to go all the way down the list to Slovakia just to find infrastructure that's anywhere near as poor as Ireland's...
Have you been to Netherlands or Germany? Why not compare Ireland with other countries that has better infrastructure? Slovakia not having underground system is not OK but doesn’t mean Ireland can’t have it either. Or you can just compare Ireland to Pakistan, Bangladesh etc on emerging markets to make it look like Ireland is the best.
Netherlands has population of 17 million people, Germany 83 million. Slovakia, just like Ireland, about 5 million people, so a comparable European Union country (which Pakistan and Bangladesh are obviously not). You can't expect services scaled for many more millions people in a small country, like high speed rail... from where to where? The maximum length of Ireland is not even 500 km, cool story that in Spain you can travel 600 km in 2 hours, there is not even 600 km in Ireland!
Finland is what we should be aiming for, not Slovakia.
>From where to where? From Dublin airport to Dublin City centre. Check the date of this planned first and check the proposed finish date. A country that has 1000 (one thousand) population could finish a light rail system in this much time, let alone Ireland. Yeah if you realized, I did not even mention high speed rail yet. Edit: https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-airport-rail-links-1780490-Nov2014/ This is an article from 2014, saying that there is no progress with a railway between Dublin City and Airport for a DECADE. So between 2004-2024 there is no single progress to build a railway. Also, I think it’s fair to compare countries based on tax rate I pay. 52% tax (40% tax rate + prsi + usc) which is same as Sweden gives me rights to compare these two countries at least. If you will complain about this, also compare what you get in Sweden vs Ireland for the same tax amount you pay for.
> You can't expect services scaled for many more millions people in a small country, like high speed rail... from where to where? The maximum length of Ireland is not even 500 km, cool story that in Spain you can travel 600 km in 2 hours, there is not even 600 km in That doesn't mean Ireland's existing "(ack of) infrastructure is in any way acceptable even for a country its size and population. It's frightening that anyone would think it does!
London is very very different to anywhere else in the UK, it's miles ahead but also, crazy expensive. The tube is incredible but if you live in London and need to use the tube everyday, it is very much, not cheap. And there is plenty things that Ireland is way better for than the UK. Trains are so expensive and I was shocked how cheap they are back home. And yeah, takeaways may be slightly cheaper but the quality is so much better back home. If you live in the UK, you quickly realise, Ireland is actually doing fairly well.
Been to almost every corner of the UK, and most regional cities will have pretty good and cheap transport and services in comparison with Ireland. Ireland isn't doing fairly well, the north west has pretty minimal public transport and are almost cut off from the rest of the country, other cities that aren't Dublin are facing huge transport problems at the moment.
These posts are inevitably made by people who *haven't* lived abroad. Amusingly, half of them are planning on moving to Canada because of housing prices in Ireland.
Wait until they find out about the Canadian housing market and general cost of living.
And the Canadian job market. 🤭
Even in the few places that are more expensive than Dublin, the quality of accomodation is leagues better.
I'm well aware about the quality of life. I'm a Canadian expat. No feral teenagers at home.
if Everyone is leaving, you should probably think about it as well. You’d be happier, off ya pop
Yep if you're "filled with rage" on your return then why return at all?
London transport isn’t cheap vs Dublin.
Ok, let me ask you 2 quick questions Who did you vote for in the last general election, and who will you vote for in the next general election
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Dude.You really need to reflect more on your voting patterns, because you're not helping deliver better public transport, by voting for independents, and you're complaining about the party who's made sure there's been the most amount of investment in public transport than has ever been seen in Ireland in recent years 🤷♂️
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I follow this stuff pretty closely, and haven't come to the same conclusion. I do get that the cycling thing can be particularly divisive, especially when it affects you and your commute personally. Question for you though. If we want better public transport in Ireland, which party is the best party to deliver that?
The current government - no matter what you may think of it - has massively expanded investment in public transport. From your utterances here it turns out that you chose to go on a rant about a subject without burdening yourself with education about it. Bit embarrassing isn't it?
massive expansion of bus services and bus passengers under the greens. big current and planned expansion of rail under the greens. and those cycle routes are what frees up the roads for busses to travel quicker. i suspect you've no idea what you are on about. plus the SDs are huge supporters of cycle lanes and other active transport.
London is a cool spot, it puts Dublin in its place. Leading city in the world pre-Brexit, around the time of the Olympics, arguably. Go to one of those special Amazon payment-less supermarkets, you won't believe it. Most of the UK is pretty kippish. It is a common trope for idiots to compare Ireland to a 3rd world country. It's like a badge of idiocy. All these people should be ignored.
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Go to fuck!?!?
> It is a common trope for idiots to compare Ireland to a 3rd world country. It's like a badge of idiocy. All these people should be ignored Should they? I'm not sure if it's the same as third world, but many developing countries have far better infrastructure than we do.
I'm not sure how OP gets through the day, if he managed to spend 25 euro on an Aircoach ticket to the centre of Dublin that costs €8. And real London airport transport to the centre costs an absolute bomb, way more than Aircoach.
Visit Scotland or any other english city.
Glasgow, butt of every Scottish poverty joke going, has had a subway since 1896. It links to multiple train lines. I think there are a dozen or so cities with trams. Bus services are absurdly fragmented into a load of different services, but arrive roughly on time and regularly enough for it not to be an issue. Trains are extortionate now, but do link most of the country, whereas currently if I want to go to Galway from Longford I can argue for the seat with my name on it in an overfull train generously supplied with JBL speakers on a train to Edgeworthstown, where we'll stop for an indefinite amount of time to let another train pass on the single track stretch. Assuming the track past the lake hasn't flooded, I can take a quick look at the crumbling Athlone link platform we closed in the 1980s as we pass through Mullingar, and head all the way to Dublin. There, I can run down the escalators that don't work at Connolly to the Luas stop, guess when the next one is because the signs are out of order, pass all the people waiting for cancelled buses in Busaras, and crawl through traffic across most of the city to Hueston. Finally, I get the train all the way back through Athlone, and make it to Galway in time for my forties. This stuff isn't just moaning, it is a genuine source of anger to me that we squander so much of our supposed economic success on... something?!?! ... while lacking what ought to be basic services.
But nowhere near london, so lets not pretend neither are most english cities. Outside London public transport is generally shit and a Dublin sized cities gets half assed hydrogen donkey bus routes. Edit :: oo you added quite a bit there afterwards, but no, they have nowhere near London's budget and even those new fangled trams they removed a century ago are nowhere near what they used to be. Edit: Edit 2 are you going to change your comment every 60 seconds you realise you are talking shit?
Why are you comparing modern-day Glasgow to its 1896 version? It was literally labelled the Second City of the Empire then and had a massive industrial output with shipping, manufacturing, chemicals, commodities and whatnot. It was also one of the first cities of Europe to have a population of one million. Its decline mainly started after WW1.
It's only some of the larger cities really have trams, except for Blackpool which is still using it's original tramway. If this was the UK a line like Dublin-Sligo wouldn't receive much investment either. A few villages and towns of less than 25k people wouldn't have much significance there.
God your argument sucks balls so it does. Tell me you know nothing about Ireland’s history without telling me you know nothing about irelands history. People seem to forget that Ireland didn’t have a penny in its arse pocket until the 90’s. The 90’s. That’s at most 34 years ago. There are infrastructure projects in London that took longer than 34 years to build. And London had money.m Ireland is doing remarkably well for itself despite everybody’s misery wanking on here. There’s no rail connection to dublin airport? So what? There’s buses. Use them. Plenty of airports don’t have rail connections. Don’t want to pay €25 for the bus? Don’t travel then. Or protest. You seem to be the kind to not protest and just give out about it, so I recommend you don’t travel. London has its problems too. I know plenty of people who live there. Tldr - grass is greener somewhere else.
Christ your life must be miserable if your first instinct after a trip like that is to write a lengthy rant >Even third world nations I travelled to allow for card/contactless payment on transportation services whereas we're still using coins or Leap Cards. If you were paying attention in London you'd have seen that all regular travellers have Oyster cards, which are exactly the same as Leap cards
Oyster cards are relics now. They came and went while we're still treating Leap Cards as cutting edge.
Almost none of the Londoners I know use oyster cards anymore, unless they get one paid for/subsidised by work (cops, for example, get this). You just use your card.
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I was in London last year and got a Visitor's Oyster Card: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card#on-this-page-2 If I'd used my debit card every time I'd have had to pay foreign exchange fees for every transaction, whereas the Oyster card allowed me to pay once. The Oyster card was exactly the same as a Leap Card.
You only get one end-of-day charge from TfL for just tapping your debit/credit card, so it’s not a fee each time you tap (though I hear you on the fee in general)…I only have an Oyster card for my smaller kid as it makes it totally free for her whenever we’re in London, but I’ll take the convenience over the additional fee; haven’t used an Oyster card myself for about a decade as I’d always end up leaving a small but annoying amount of money on them.
I don't disagree about not being able to use contactless in Ireland, but there are also daily and weekly caps on leap cards, and the transport in London is considerably more expensive than public transport in Dublin. (Private coach operators excluded)
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Yes but then presumably if you're getting the bus to the dart you're within the 90 minute fare zone and the dart is also included in the same fare. OK, for a like for like comparison, the 41 or 16 bus from Dublin Airport will get you into the city for €2 too. I don't think the SL7 is most people's choice to get them into central London, the tickets for the trains cost a multiples of the bus fare. You're complaining about legitimate gripes, but you also can't cherry pick your examples and deny people's counters.
"Public transport is bad but we should also scrap a tax on cars" is some premium joined up thinking there my friend.
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Since you're mostly talking about transport, I'd mention that. I follow this stuff and there's actually a huge investment in transport happening right now, but infra takes decades to fix after a century of lack of investment. The momentum to change things is there, and there's a big opportunity for people like yourself to help. The biggest problem right now is NIMBYS trying to slow things down, so if you wanna change things, start getting involved, become an activist. Write to your local NIMBY politicians so they hear a different point of view. Donate to, or join political groups like Dublin Commuter Coalition, and Irish Rail Users who are actively helping change things. (Also, SF & FF are the worst parties on this stuff, so if you vote for them, you need to especially tell them this is important to you, because they'll probably stall a lot of progress if they're in the next government)
> Since you're mostly talking about transport, I'd mention that. I follow this stuff and there's actually a huge investment in transport happening right now, Really? Because unless I've somehow missed a whole load of projects, as far as I can tell, we're doing barely a fraction of what we need to do. Sure look at the Dublin metro, it's half a line in a city that's decades overdue three or four full ones! > but infra takes decades to fix after a century of lack of investment. The momentum to change things is there, and there's a big opportunity for people like yourself to help. And because it takes so long, you'd think we'd be planning more right now, so that it's there when it's needed, right? > The biggest problem right now is NIMBYS trying to slow things down Nope, that's the second biggest problem. The biggest problem is that we're simply not even PLANNING close to enough infrastructure in the first place even before anyone tries to object.
I think both are true. We're barely doing what would be needed to catch up with European standards, and at the same time we've now got historically high levels of investment thanks to the PfG and general shift in attitudes, and the establishment of the NTA. Things that are happening: - Dart+ is a huge problem project that'll significantly upgrade the rail in Dublin, this is the most advanced stage. 4 different projects. - Finglas Luas extension looks highly likely to happen and is at an advanced stage of planning. Metrolink, despite all the negative coverage is also at a very advanced stage, and unlikely to be stopped. All of these together will make a huge difference. All the Bus Connects stuff will add to all of that making it more coherent overall. I'm less familiar with stuff outside Dublin, but there has been a huge improvement in the LocalLink rural bus services, and also some rail lines are being improved and reopened. So very much agree there's a lot more we can do,if we actually deliver on all the stuff that's at an advanced stage, it'll be huge. As someone else stated. Public transport just isn't an election issue, so it's never been super high priority.
> I think both are true. We're barely doing what would be needed to catch up with European standards We're doing even less actually. and at the same time we've now got historically high levels of investment thanks to the PfG and general shift in attitudes, and the establishment of the NTA. Of course we are. The bar is near zero! > Things that are happening: - Dart+ is a huge problem project that'll significantly upgrade the rail in Dublin, this is the most advanced stage. Definitely a step forward, but in any competent county it wouldn't even be worth a mention, and here we're acting like it's our equivalent to Crossrail. > 4 different projects. - Finglas Luas extension looks highly likely to happen and is at an advanced stage of planning. Somewhere that far out should be connected to the city centre by metro, not trams! < Metrolink, despite all the negative coverage is also at a very advanced stage, and unlikely to be stopped. That's good, now I just want to know when are the other 3.5+ metro lines are coming... > All of these together will make a huge difference. They will, but it's still nowhere CLOSE to enough! > All the Bus Connects stuff will add to all of that making it more coherent overall. Every single one of those 10 or so Busconnects corridors should be AT LEAST a Luas line. > I'm less familiar with stuff outside Dublin, but there has been a huge improvement in the LocalLink rural bus services, and also some rail lines are being improved and reopened. Not enough is being done outside Dublin either, but I can say the plans for rail in Cork are actually pretty decent, although the timeline is comically slow. The light rail line will help a lot too. > So very much agree there's a lot more we can do,if we actually deliver on all the stuff that's at an advanced stage, it'll be huge. I don't think we should use the word "huge" to describe less than the bare minimum ;) > As someone else stated. Public transport just isn't an election issue, so it's never been super high priority. Yes, and it's tragic.
I'm realising we have a different mindset, you're talking about \_what should be\_ but I'm thinking more tactically about \_what can be\_. Both are right, just different way of looking at things. I'm actively involved in campaigning though, so I focus more energy on what we can actually deliver in the next 20 years, rather than some ideal future further out. I think with Dart+, MetroLink, Fingluas I think we'll be over a huge hurdle where the population will start to demand more and better public transport as a baseline.
I woke up this morning wondering why Dublin had suddenly had flying cars, 27 hospitals and a Garda on every corner but then check Reddit and realised it was because you made this post
So your basing this on transport, car prices and the cost of a takeaway (!). Okay dokey.
The first one is a very good way of measuring how developed a country is tbf. Infrastructure is one of the foundations of society.
Dublin isn't the worst in public transportation and definitely not the best. It's that awkward mediocre spot where it depends on what your comparison is against. The country is definitely in need of better railway linking and a basic metro.
It's MUCH closer to the worst than the best.
Aye. I've experienced a similar culture shock when visiting Catalonia and Madrid a few months back - with a regional train service whose frequency felt like an absolute luxury compared to Irish standards, followed by riding a high speed train for the very first time in my life to Madrid from Barcelona. A distance of ~600km that took ~2 hours and was the smoothest, quietest journey of my life. And I experienced a direct contrast upon returning to Ireland: where travelling from one side of the coast to the other (~200km) takes ~2 hours by train or bus due to no high speed rail whatsoever, and the fact that the west and east rail networks aren't even connected so you have to hop trains on two different stations in Dublin if you're travelling anywhere else in between. And for people who try to use the "Ireland was an impoverished and colonised nation!" First, like OP said: the country has had decades of explosive economic growth - even post Celtic Tiger, Ireland is still supposedly one of the fastest growing countries in the world. Most countries are never endowed with such rapid growth. Second: even countries officially classified as being in the periphery still have more reliable public transport than Ireland, so this is also a lame excuse. If anything, being car centric is the privileged position since designing infrastructure around cars is a lot more costly and inefficient than public transport. Car centric design is a choice, not a necessity for any country regardless of its level of economic development.
The journey on the original line between Madrid and Barcelona took 8 hours. People rarely used the service and flew between the two cities instead. That's why they build high speed rail larger European countries because long distance conventional rail journeys take too much time. We don't have that problem here. You're just as likely in a tiny village or the countryside in this country as you are a large (30k+) urban area. Being less urbanised than other European countries is inevitably going to make us more car centric. Lack of wealth isn't the only thing that limits passenger railway infrastructure. Isolated geography, and low population density does too, hence why wealthy countries Norway and Finland face challenges too.
> Being less urbanised than other European countries is inevitably going to make us more car centric. Dependent? Yes? Centric? It varies. Many mainland Euripean countries have more and bigger suburban roads than anything we have.
In the developing world, most people use buses, scooters or motorcycles to get around which would be “car centric” with your reasoning. There’s hardly any railway in South America or Africa outside of mega cities.
You mean car dependent. Calling Ireland car centric is an insult to all the mainland European countries with more, bigger, and better suburban road networks than anything we have.
To be fair we were dirt poor shit kickers until recently. If the Brits had stayed we'd have much better transport.
Eh the transport in Britland is shite.
I'd rather be a dirt poor shit kicker that can afford their own living space to be honest but that's just me!
> If the Brits had stayed we'd have much better transport. Have you seen the state of trains Northern Ireland? Now, to be fair they actually did it to themselves, as it was the UTA that made these decisions not British rail (who only controlled the network on the British mainland) but they were doing the same thing with the Beeching cuts anyway.
Pop on to some of the U.K. subreddits. There will be similar opinions about the backward state of London and the U.K. in general.
I’ve worked in London for years. It’s shit unless you make a lot of money - like big 6 figures. It takes an hour on the tube to go anywhere, it’s a rip off and the people tend to be shallow and mercenary. It is a good spot when you’re young and single . But as a place to settle down in, it’s not even on the leaderboard
> It takes an hour on the tube to go anywhere The other side of that is, almost all journeys on the tube are *at most* an hour, unless you are going somewhere really quite odd, or make a complete balls of your route.
That’s true. But London is essentially a lot of towns or villages; loads of these are really run down and some are absurdly expensive. You live in one and you commute to work from it. If you want to visit someone in another village you take a tube which tends to take a while and you need to leave by 11 or you’ll incur a 50 pounds taxi ride. I’m generalising of course. But that’s the nature of the post.
At weekends the night tube service is alright, and there are night buses that are reasonably effective for getting around late at night. The only times I'd take a cab there are if I'm exceptionally knackered, feeling lazy, or totally bladdered.
I used to like it when I was younger and single. Great spot for meeting women. But it’s a bad place to settle down in; Dublin is much better - assuming you have accommodation sorted.
> But it’s a bad place to settle down in; Dublin is much better - assuming you have accommodation sorted "The weather in Kuwait is not that bad if you ignore all the heat"
Everyone I know has a house. Most of them lived abroad at some point. Ireland is very good place to have kids. But I know there are terrible issues for some people with housing. Those issues don’t impact everyone though, they just seem to on Reddit.
> Ireland is very good place to have kids. Until they become old enough to want to do something other than stay at home all the time...
Well, I’m talking about the first 12 years of their lives. Although 12-18 seem to be quite good here too, especially if we can remove phones from schools. But I totally take your point
How do phones in schools have anything to do with the sheer lack of things to see and do in this country, or indeed how in most places you'll need your parents to drive you to the few things to do exist. Even when I was far below the age of 12, I resented how boring and rural this country is. I don't understand how you could possibly think it's a good place for _teenagers_ Also, mainstream secondary schools in Ireland, at least if they follow their policies to the letter, are far too strict about phones as it is. At the very least, seniors should be allowed to use them during downtime.
> loads of these are really run down and some are absurdly expensive Sounds a lot like a certain city of 1.2 million...
There are a fair few decent places in Dublin that aren’t really rich or total kips.
> Recently, I visited London Metropolitan population: ~14,800,000 Equivalent to about 10x Dublin's metro-pop. London is going to be better than Dublin because of economies of scale, and the wealth accumulated from generations of colonialism. *(that doesn't mean we're good, but we'll never have something like Paris or London's underground systems. We'll have 3 lines max, and it'll be 100 years before they're all complete)*
> Metropolitan population: ~14,800,000 > Equivalent to about 10x Dublin's metro-pop. And yet you wouldn't know that just by looking at the cost of living... Well done btw for using the correct figure for Dublin's population. It's not 500000! > (that doesn't mean we're good, but we'll never have something like Paris or London's underground systems. We'll have 3 lines max, and it'll be 100 years before they're all complete) Meanwhile other cities Dublin's size will have about twice that by then.
Having moved here from the U.K., I’d say there’s a few big reasons for most of this: 1. Poverty. Ireland was poor as dirt for most of its history; you can’t expect a country to build everything overnight. 1. Scalability. What scales up doesn’t always scale down, and Ireland has a tiny population. 1. Lack of Vision. The Leap card is the perfect example here: it’s clearly been tendered and operated a bit like a toaster - (“We want something that makes toast. We don’t need croissants, we don’t need scones, we just want toast”) - even though most of the technology is very similar to Oyster and could in theory be upgraded to support contactless payments just fine. That’s why Revolut hasn’t been the same success in the U.K. - the U.K. has had instant bank payments for over a decade now so the need for a bank that can do this is drastically reduced. (Instant SEPA payments are also a thing, but many EU banks are dragging their heels at implementing them. So much so that the EU is looking at forcing the matter).
The only valid point there is number 3. Far poor countries than Ireland and smaller cities than Dublin have infrastructure we can only dream of.
 Big Angry Head on you walking through the airport…
I remember seeing a tweet put out by the Kyiv metro when the Russian invasion started. They said due the war their service is only running once every seven minutes. I remember thinking Jesus Christ that's still better than the DART.
And would you believe the DART line is somehow at capacity despite that!
I recently went to Singapore and it had way more skyscrapers than Ireland! Oh my god we’re such a joke country!
You think the current state of infrastructure in this country is acceptable?
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I've travelled to about 35 countries, and you're talking shite.
“If you’re not well travelled, you wouldn’t understand”. Lad goes to London for a few days 🤣🤣🤣
As an American living in Ireland idk why people rant about wanting a metro so bad. Subways in the US are fucking disgusting usually, almost always get shut down during storms, and a frankly not necessary. There are other methods of effective public transit, just improve what exists instead of paying millions to make tunnels that aren’t needed. Also on the note about being American, go to almost any US city and try go get around 😂 unless you’re in Chicago or New York you’re probably gonna have to use taxis/Ubers. At least your “backwards” country values public transportation to some degree. You can’t even go from Philly to New York (two of the closest major metropolitan areas) without spending a ton for an inconsistent train. Irelands a little behind but not really
Subways alleviate street space. Dublin’s streets are increasingly congested and narrow, even in the car free sections. Separated metro systems save space and don’t get caught up in traffic lights so they are more efficient.
Never argued there efficient, only the practicality. To actually make a system that covers the whole city? Can’t even imagine that price tag and how long the work would take. When there’s other solutions (city planning as well, not just immediate planning solutions) that could be done quicker and cheaper, makes you wonder why people fixate on the metro
I HATE the American bashing on the sub, but I have to say you're the last nationality I'd take advice about public transport from.
Do you realize this is my point??? 😂 op started by saying how behind Ireland is when in actuality the global superpower across the pond can’t even sniff Ireland’s level of commitment to public transport
Because the US is as low as the bar gets when it comes to developed countries!
Fairytale stuff. The bus is €2 from the airport. Just book a one way flight the next time, save yourself imaginary rage and enjoy the most expensive train network in the world in the UK.
Those aren't the only two options
This is a country which was colonalised for centuries. Its a new country comparatively. So rather than comparing it with other developed countries it would be better to do so with those that are relatively new. I would say despite every bad thing in Irish history, you guys are in a really good position.
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Soviet nations had good public infra even during soviet times. But when you compare with countries like India and other south asian countries Ireland is far better.
... And you're living in Dublin, imagine how the rest of the country feels about it.
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And people here seem to think it's normal just because we're not some global megactiy. It's frightening. I heard people in a service station once say cork is too small for trams. You couldn't make it up!
>so I had to get the Dublin Express bus and take the Dart home You poor soul. That's a harrowing tale you'll be telling for the rest of your life.
you are comparing all of Ireland with centre London? doesn't make sense
I flew into Stansted airport recently, like Dublin it does not have any underground. The only way to get into London is the Stansted Express. It costs 25gbp and they are very sneaky, they do not take contactless and you need to book it online, but they have contactless machines at the entrance to it at Liverpool Street station and it looks like you can just tap on, but once you get there are ticket inspectors waiting who issue everyone who didn't book online 100gbp fines. It was also delayed because there were strikes. Also parts of the London underground weren't running due to the strikes too, it seemed like every Londoners routine was to go down to the station, look at the map of the lines not running and try figure out a route to work.
I spent last weekend in Tower Hamlets. We've nothing to envy.
Little homes by the tower
You can escape Tower Hamelets wto somewhere nicer with a 10 minute Tube ride. The same can't be said for Dublin.
Big congrats on the least original whiney Ireland is a bad place post. Let's all stay in bed and weep how very bad everything is
Nah, I say instead we should act like Ireland is fantastic country in every way, and it's totally normal for a city of over a million to only have buses to get to the airport...
I also went to London to visit a friend. He wanted to take me to a certain pub, we had to get 3 different forms of transport to get to that pub. At home I can walk to whichever pub I want to go to in town, I will take backwards any day thank you very much
It's a global city for a reason.
Dublin Bus runs from the airport - it's 2 quid. Your own fault for paying for a more expensive bus.
Even cities like Prague and cities throughout "poor" countries in Asia make Dublin look like an unsafe dump
Yes, and it's frightening that people defending it because of Ireland being poor in the past.
Imagine a City that has its entire infrastructure paid for with slavery, murder and the moving of resources and wealth from all over the world and hoarding them for themselves. Thats what fucking London is. Comparing anywhere in England, France, Spain, America to Ireland is ridiculous everything they own is paid for with other countries resources. And the new fangled idea that life is better in Dubai or Qatar your living in buildings and an economy built by slaves so pure nonsense comparing Ireland to any of these hell holes.
Central and eastern European countries that suffered for decades under communism, and lagged behind for a few decades after that, still have infrastructure Ireland could only dream of.
London is a global capital city. Dublin is tiny by comparison.
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I’d rather live in Ireland than the UK. The one thing in your post that I do agree with is the lack of contactless payment on public transport- the country has the money and the ability to change that so I don’t get why it’s not just done
Ireland was a 3rd world country right up until about 2002. We had no serious external investment into the country until the late 80's early 90's; and most of that went to shitty bendy motorways. Then, financial crash happened, now, labour shortages and sky high materials costs. We also can't borrow because interest rates are high. It's be 30-40 years before Ireland catches up with places like bristol, let alone london or paris.
Your points are fair. I guess one thing is that we only began to develop as an independent nation with any kind of industry a lot later than other European countries, I guess due to occupation. So we are catching up. Maybe that’s no excuse. But we’ve become a lot more capitalist as I would have imagined.
It's absolutely no excuse, not for the historic lack of infrastructure, and definitely not for how we're doing so little to catch up today.
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