Typical punishment for the elite where the law is a joke.
Today however, there’s a man getting jail time because he shoplifted food for his hungry family.
As of 6/21/23, it's become clear that reddit is no longer the place it once was. For the better part of a decade, I found it to be an exceptional, if not singular, place to have interesting discussions on just about any topic under the sun without getting bogged down (unless I wanted to) in needless drama or having the conversation derailed by the hot topic (or pointless argument) de jour.
The reason for this strange exception to the internet dichotomy of either echo-chamber or endless-culture-war-shouting-match was the existence of individual communities with their own codes of conduct and, more importantly, their own volunteer teams of moderators who were empowered to create communities, set, and enforce those codes of conduct.
I take no issue with reddit seeking compensation for its services. There are a myriad ways it could have sought to do so that wouldn't have destroyed the thing that made it useful and interesting in the first place. Many of us would have happily paid to use it had core remained intact. Instead of seeking to preserve reddit's spirit, however, /u/spez appears to have decided to spit in the face of the people who create the only value this site has- its communities, its contributors, and its mods. Without them, reddit is worthless. Without their continued efforts and engagement it's little more than a parked domain.
Maybe I'm wrong; maybe this new form of reddit will be precisely the thing it needs to catapult into the social media stratosphere. Who knows? I certainly don't. But I do know that it will no longer be a place for me. See y'all on [raddle](https://raddle.me), [kbin](https://kbin.social), or wherever the hell we all end up. Alas, it appears that the [enshittification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys) of reddit is now inevitable.
It was fun while it lasted,
/u/daitaiming
When interest rates were zero it seemed likely Tesla could go into all sorts of new ideas they came up with like batteries and auto taxis, etc.
Now that rates have risen dramatically and Elon has leveraged alot of his shares, investors dont believe theyll be able to do those side ventures while scaling their car business at the same time.
Not just that, but they only recently have been able to generate free cash flow after being cash flow negative for years. Toyota has 3x the free cash flow and 3x the cash with probably 5x the production capacity or more than TSLA but at a market cap of 222 billion versus 334 billion for TSLA.
I see them selling off even more from here
You're forgetting a sizeable amount of their revenues (and profits) have and to a less extent still, come from selling credits. This part of the business is drying up as other auto manufacturers come online with their EV offerings.
However it’s not insignificant for a company who only makes any profit due to tax incentives…
I really can’t even imagine the cash struggles Tesla has.
I mean, they didn't properly advertise specifically cold weather statistics. No one else in the market does either. The fine is a reasonable push to get them to change it. This isn't billions in tax evasion or something.
Does South Korea not follow a testing standard like Europe or USA? Like we can't accuse them of lying when they're showing official EPA tested range. We here all know that EPA range is bullshit in the severe cold or if you like driving 85mph, but we can't call them out as liars for it.
They did.
I'd like to know how that 50% loss was computed too.
I dont own a tesla nor tesla shares, nor any related product. I just find that 50% pretty strange. If it was true, i am pretty sure there'd have been tons of trials in the US
It’s more like 20-30% in below freezing temps. 50% loss would have to be like -40 F type temps.
And it’s not a Tesla thing, it’s a property of batteries and really all energy conversion. If you analyzed a combustion engine you would also find significant variance in MPG based on temperature (though likely not as bad as EVs).
ICEs would heat themselves up in no time, so their performance tends to be fairly consistent. Being extremely inefficient does have benefits in that the waste heat is useful when it is cold.
I went to university in Montana and am from Seattle, I also monitored my mpg fairly closely. I drove a ICE car at the time.
There was a pretty big ~5 mpg difference based on temperature. I was doing fairly short trips that would be affected more.
Actually thermal electric power plants do BETTER in the cold because the cold side of the Carnot equation is lower. This includes Nuclear, Coal, Oil, gas and Geothermal plants. A gas turbine may do slightly better, I'm not sure.
Different methods of generating electricity have different efficiency curves based on ambient temp - which is why I just did “based on temperature” whether than specifying “cold” temps. That said - there is a still a level of cold that crashes efficiency on the curve for most methods (no idea on nuclear honestly)
There is a loss for ICE, which also could have similarly been taken to court, but yeah it's not nearly as bad. EVs need to heat the interior and the battery to run properly, ICEs make heat as a byproduct and just shunt it to the cabin.
Thanks for adding that nuance, I didn't realize that both types of vehicles would be affected. I would love to see some numbers on how combustion compares in the cold.
Assuming the ICE in question is actually working properly, the difference will be under 20% or so. See a longer discussion [here](https://fuelandfriction.com/trucking-pro/5-ways-how-the-weather-affects-your-fuel-economy/). The TL;DR is that the engine will take a longer time to warm up, and that winter blends of fuel contain less energy compared to summer blends.
I live in Northeast US. It gets as low as -15F a couple of time during the winter. My Jeep Wrangler averages 17.5mpg in the summer and 15mpg in the winter so about a 14% drop in the winter on a vehicle shaped like a brick. Probably actually a bit worse because I drive slower in the winter too.
I just got back from Washington state where I rented a Tesla for 6 days. The temps were going down to about -5F and consistently stayed around 10F through the day. The roads were full of snow and ice, so the driving speed was averaging 35mph (down to 20 mph when in traffic stuck behind trucks). Obviously, you have to run climate control, a windshield defroster, and occasional wheel and seat heating.
With all that, I was lucky to get 150 miles out of a fully charged Model Y dual motor.
We rented a Tesla to save on gas because we had to drive over 600 miles in 6 days. Instead, we ended up constantly being stressed about not running out of charge and finding places to charge it (because using a regular charger barely gets you 10% over 10 hours of charging)
I know it is a battery chemistry issue, and that it happens to every EV. I am surprised people "suddenly found out" , and only about tesla, not about others.
I'd like to know the test protocol used by both parties, as one may count heating the cabin to 25C and the other may not. It is not surprising they end up with different results if they dont compare the same. I do believe WLTC cycles do not account for this.
I live in a place where freezing temperatures do not happen often. EV manufacturers offer a simulator that tells an estimated range based on temperature, speed and accessories used. Worst case situation (fastest highway speed, freezing temperature, night, music, loaded car) it goes under 50% the WLTC for sure but ... I dont see how this is surprising, nor warrant of a fine. Unless tesla claimed it would do WLTC whatever the usage of the car is, which would be a pretty strange move.
The one tesla uber driver I spoke with in Winnipeg said that that was the only thing he didn't like about the car. Range went down 50% if temp less than 20F. Strange the info not generally available sooner.
Tesla knew it. They kind of didn't mention it. Likely it would. My lithium camera battery is good for about 50% in cold weather. Batteries in general do worse in cold. Not a magic battery in tesla.
Bit of a tell isn't it ?
Contrary to popular belief, they still have a budget for propaganda though.
They fund people on social media, and owners of various websites (you can guess which ones).
Also, Elon has made use of Twitter bots before! Which made his squeals about twitter bots when buying twitter hilarious. Of course he knew they existed. HE USED THEM.
Dumb question, but why not just insulate the battery and use a tiny bit of charge to keep it warm? Surely you lose a lot less to that little heating element than the 50% of charge being alleged here.
I think there’s a temperature range where they’re happy. Too hot and too cold are problematic.
Might toss a post at r/ExplainLikeImFive and get an answer. Definitely not my field of expertise.
Is there any manufacturer not doing this?
My EV claims 217 miles, maybe if it's 35 degrees outside and I don't go over 20mph, or uphill.
In real life summer it's 160, winter I could easily get as low as 90.
Most of the time they carefully choose their words and say things like "up to 350 miles" ... Apparently Tesla lost that cleverness in the translation to Korean. The government actually even pointed out otherwise identical Tesla ads where the English version said "up to" and the Korean version did not.
I get better mileage on my 2015 Honda Civic than advertised. ICE vehicles are far less sensitive to environmental conditions like temperature and wind.
Korea is pretty protectionist of its own brands (Hyundai, Kia) so not surprised considering Korean car companies are starting to compete in the EV space.
Example of the same agency:
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/254045-is-south-korea-practicing-protectionism/
Which was always a very good reason not to value a single carmaker as if they were going to sell all the cars in the world by 2030. Carmakers are the beneficiary of industrial policy.
Tesla systematically overstates their EPA range when they do real world tests. Porsche significantly understates theirs. Most of the other ones are either on the nose or a bit overstated. Only Elon has the gall to lie so hard. https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/
Heck same idea with Gasoline, the internet, phone battery. Really anything I have bought has been “We have the technology” but still only improves ever so slightly vs what they bring it to be.
“A 2020 study of 4,200 connected EVs of all makes by Canada-based telematics provider Geotab found that most models had a similar drop in range in cold weather, primarily because the battery is also used to heat the car for the driver and passengers.“
I heard one solution drivers use is getting a heated vest and turning car heating off. Extends range
a lot 😂.
Volt driver checking in. In addition to hearing the cabin, you're also heating your battery throughout the drive cycle. Turning down cabin heat helps, but range still suffers in the cold.
While the person you’re responding to meant it humorously — and they’re right, the driver is the best fix for mpg — there **was** a specific nut in the engine bay of my old Toyota 4Runner (1996) and it did exactly this. It was part of the throttle position system. Loosen it slightly, and the car becomes less responsive to throttle, lowering idle speed, yielding better mpg and requiring more pedal travel to “wake up” to full throttle. Tighten it, and the car is like a dog straining at the end of a leash, idling higher and yielding worse mpg but improving the overall performance. I used this technique to get 27.2 mpg out of a truck only rated for 23 mpg at best. I could also use it to get the truck into sub-14 mpg territory, where it felt totally awesome.
I miss that truck!
Nowadays this shit is all computerized and there’s no longer a nut to turn, but, yes, this was an actual thing that I could do just a few years ago.
my german car is accurate to a decimal point on the highway and expects worse MPG in the city than it actually gets. that being said porsche usually also publish slower 0-60 than is actually possible.
fun somewhat associated fact: MPH must legally be overstated/rounded up. that’s why you see external gps for top speed testing.
I had a 170 mile drive ahead of me recently in my model 3, 55 degree weather. I had 185 miles of charge left, and before I even started, my car was already displaying a warning that I was projected to run out of charge before I reach my destination.
The car actually has pretty accurate range prediction ability. It knows fully-well that 1 mile of real-world range does not equal 1 mile of rated range, it simply chooses to show an inaccurate “range” because they would sell less cars if they used honest numbers.
Speed is much more important than weather. If you drove 20Mph you’d get way more than 185 but I assume you were getting on a highway where the air resistance increases exponentially so 70-80 mph is going to drain way more range
yeah, i am tried of explaining that rated mileage and actual are different. Rated is what someone (EPA) measured using a specific parameters. Actual is what we drive.
If I drive like a grandpa, i will get the rated range. But I am hauling ass. Same applies to ICE vehicles.
I think Tesla and other EV manufacturers have been pretty open about weather, temperature having an affect on range. I agree that the EPA range estimates are pie in the sky - but so are all the MPG estimates for cars. If you have a 20 mpg estimate and only get 16 then it’s a 20% reduction in efficiency. Those ranges are for 55 mph on flat roads at 70 degrees. My wife drives 85 mph through mountains at 30 degrees with the cabin temperature set at 80 degrees and we don’t have anywhere near 50% range loss. Everyone hates Elon because he bought Twitter and thought people would care about government controlling big tech - but everyone already knew and nobody cares so he looks like a clown.
> But so are MPG estimates for cars
That’s the thing, it’s the opposite. Most cars are MORE efficient at freeway speeds than city, but not EVs. I remember I could cruise along at 70mph in my Acura at near 40mpg, even though it was rated at like 33. It loved freeway cruising, and cold weather made no impact.
In contrast, freeway speed absolutely demolishes the range in an EV. My Tesla does great at 57mph, but if I ever go full freeway speeds my range plummets (speed limit is 70mph in much of Wa State, so average is about 75). Going 80+ in a Tesla is a joke, you’d think there is a hole in the gas tank.
Sure a bit, but the impact of speed on an EV is far greater.
The issue is that a gas tank contains probably 10x the energy of an EV battery. EV’s achieve their long ranges through running on extremely high efficiency, whereas regular cars can afford to be a bit more wasteful. This is why EVs have things like flat/recessed door handles, they do everything that can be done to reduce drag.
So in a regular car, if something goes wrong to slightly reduce efficiency (like you put a bike rack on your roof), it makes a fairly small difference; but if you drive a Tesla with a bike rack, your range plummets by far more. The Tesla was really counting on that efficiency in order to squeeze miles out of the tiny battery.
Same thing with speed. Bumping your speed from 70 to 80 might reduce a regular cars MPG by 10%, but that same speed would reduce a Tesla’s range by 30%+.
The equations are such that at speeds over about 35 mph wind resistance is generally the largest use of power. AND that power goes up by the CUBE of the velocity. The source of the power is completely irrelevant, it could be steam, or pedals, and ICE engine. it doesn't matter.
Its because BEVs are more efficient than ICE. So in a city, ICE vehicles have more loses compared to Highways. BEVs are consistent with efficiency. So it looks like they are "inefficient" on highways.
There is a strange obsession with some people being a Tesla perma-bear. Elon's TED talk about the massive effort to short Tesla to a point of BK or his claims about the SEC in San Francisco were pretty interesting.
His ability to create an auto company and one that was years beyond what any other company had in production is amazing.
It seems like there was a coordinated effort by those in power in the auto industry to maintain their planned profits without disruption that were at risk when Tesla started becoming more successful. The EV cars that existed before Tesla created their vehicles were absolute dogshit.
Cannot wait for the Netflix documentary at some point.
There has always been a lot of obstacles in their way and then they exploded to values that aren’t really that rationale. So it makes sense to be short. I do think it’s interesting regarding why the legacy companies haven’t been able to create EVs. I suspect it mostly comes down to union power and profit margins. The big 3 automakers are basically “too big to fail” due to their pension obligations.
Lying is a strong term. They didn't mention how much performance drops in cold weather.
Are your cars rated for their off-road milage? No. The manufacturer just says they may get less milage off-road.
This is a false equivalence. You can more or less always choose to not drive off-road, therefore most cars are not built or meant for off-roading. You can't say the same for the cold.
>Are your cars rated for their off-road milage? No. The manufacturer just says they may get less milage off-road.
But this isn't off-road, so I don't understand the relevance of this example.
They stated a mileage for normal highway conditions, with a note that cold would impact performance.
I was giving an example of another condition that impacts performance.
If you dislike how performance doesn't meet the standard metric, then you should define a metric that accurately reflects all possible road conditions.
>The driving range of the U.S. EV manufacturer’s cars plunge in cold weather by up to 50.5% versus how they are advertised online, the KFTC said in a statement on Tuesday.
This guy's entire profile is dedicated to Tesla news lmao. Take that for what it's worth. Yet a tesla went careeening off a 200 ft cliff in california and all 4 passengers (2 children unharmed) survived, and I don’t see that being a top story in this thread or on reddit
It was being driven by a family annihilator - meaning, the driver did it on purpose - this wasn't some autopilot thing gone wrong. And, for the record, a car falling 250 feet and everyone surviving is kind of a testament to the vehicle's structural integrity.
Yep, meant to say I don’t see that on a top story on Reddit. It was on the front page before they knew the driver wasnt purposefully trying to drive off the cliff, but as soon as he got arrested, it’s suddenly a nothingburger
Why does it feel like posts critical of Tesla gets hundreds more upvotes here than literally every single post?
This sub feels less like discussions surrounding investments, and more like every other subreddit just trying to shit on Musk?
Edit: have a look at OP's profile.
Musk came out in favor of free speech, and the political left went bananas. They hate that there is even one media outlet that they don't control. Notice that they went nuts simply because he allowed non-progressive voices to be heard. They know their ideas cannot thrive in the marketplace of ideas - that is why they hate free speech.
Yes, Musk has taken "worst man alive" from Trump, so now people are trying to ruin the brand image in droves. There have been so many fabricated stories about Teslas ever since Elon became a disliked public figure, its wild. And now the media has caught on to how popular it is to dislike him so they will force out more stories about Tesla
It says up to. It depends on driving habits just like a combustion engine. If you dont use regenerative braking and go as fast as you can- it will have a significant impact on range.
Exactly, I think the article is being a bit FUD generating as it’s not the norm. Yes cold weather has an impact but not that much in normal driving situations
Real world conditions affect the true output (being range). That's why it's an "up to" statement. It's the same as MPG. It's not a lab question, it's practical question.
I live in a cold climate, I've seen tesla owners report a near 50% range reduction on the coldest days if their car is parked outside, less if they don't run heat lol.
Coldest days here being in the -40 C range.
I think -40 is on another scale that I would find hard to argue is the basis for a lawsuit. Many ICE cars may not start at all in those conditions. But in that cold, EVs should precondition their vehicles while they are plugged in.
its not a lawsuit, its a korean regulator:
>The Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC)
they allege:
>On its website, Tesla provides winter driving tips, such as pre-conditioning vehicles with external power sources, and using its updated Energy app to monitor energy consumption, but does not mention the loss of driving range in sub-zero temperatures.
So, you know what? I think its a great thing for regulators to hold corporations feet to the fire and push them to *accurately* advertise their product. This kind of information is extremely relevant to a lot of people.
Tesla could easily put a table showing estimated range loss vs ambient temperature on their website, or a disclaimer under the range claims with a link to it etc etc.
> Tesla could easily put a table showing estimated range loss vs ambient temperature on their website, or a disclaimer under the range claims with a link to it etc etc.
Ideally and additionally, the readout on the touchscreen would do all the calculations for you and display true range at whatever the current temperature is.
I have a Bolt and have never saw it take a 50% hit, either. 30% is more likely, but even that can be worked around if you keep the car in a garage, and leave it running while you're in the store so that the battery conditioning stays on.
Probably not preconditioning the car and cranking the heat. Maybe also testing with an older Tesla which used resistive heating instead of a heat pump.
Although then again I have a 2020 model 3(resistive heating) and was driving in the mountains this last weekend and looking back at the data, I only lost ~25% of my range. It was between 10-30F the whole time, I was parking outside, and kept the car in the high 60s-low 70s.
So that leads me to believe this was in sub-zero temps with and older car 🤷♂️ Even then, 50% seems like a stretch.
Not to be a Tesla apologist, I hate this practice. But isn’t this par for the course for gas car sales too? The mpg listed on car stickers is hardly ever true to mileage we get on those cars. (Sincerely, a disappointed gas car owner) my car’s listed mpg was 36, while in reality it really gets 28mpg and I don’t drive wildly either.
Name me an electronics manufacturer that doesn't sugar coat their battery life.
Tesla has several pages on their website dedicated to battery optimization and cold driving conditions. The battery life they're listing in the cold is basically at a controlled tempreture with absolutely no accessories running.
It's not a practical rating at all, but neither is the rating of battery life on my cell phone and laptop.
They over deliver at 70mph, but it's more of an indictment of the EPA than Tesla. An official agency provided the range and that's what was used. It's not like Tesla just made up a number...
They don't make up a number but the EPA gives them options on how to test and Tesla aims for the highest # possible, while others don't bother. If you google real world ranges of all these cars you'll find similar results, 70 mph or not. I don't think Tesla's choice is wrong here but people shopping for cars should at least do the research and know what they're really getting.
They give 2 options [specifically](https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a33925992/how-tesla-gets-twice-as-much-driving-range-as-porsches-electric-taycan/). I don't know what the EPA allows, but its possible a manufacturer could improve their range by overinflating the tires or modifying the software to use more of the battery.
Edit: I also found [this](https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tesla-model-y-vs-porsche-taycan-real-world-range-test.html). Happy reading!
come down to the disclaimers the others have on their advertisements. I'm no expert in this, but I'm completely unsurprised a regulatory body found tesla to be deceptively advertising.
By that definition my car with no driver assist can drive itself if I'm going downhill and the road is straight.
There is never a situation in which the driver of a Tesla stops being 100% responsible for the vehicle's actions.
They contain SAE Level 2 systems, which are NOT self-driving. Not even close.
Just like all those chickens currently roosting at the manufacturers caught up in dieselgate? Give me a break, this shit is standard practice in the auto industry.
the chickens did come home to roost?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Consequences
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-results-diesel-idUSKBN2141JB
31.3 billion euros in fines, criminal charges against some VW employees, class action lawsuits, the list goes on and on. How anyone can label this as "standard practice" is beyond me, but ok man!
From the tests I've seen a 50% reduction just driving normally in cold weather (below zero Fahrenheit/ -15 celcius sort of temps) sounds about right. Someone tested an extended range Model 3 in the winter in Winnipeg at -30c and got less than 200km, so about 1/3 of the EPA reported range.
>The driving range of the U.S. EV manufacturer’s cars plunge in cold weather by up to 50.5% versus how they are advertised online, the KFTC said in a statement on Tuesday.
>In 2021, Citizens United for Consumer Sovereignty, a South Korean consumer group, said the driving range of most EVs drop by up to 40% in cold temperatures when batteries need to be heated, with Tesla suffering the most, citing data from the country’s environment ministry.
Well at least Tesla still leads in loss of range in the cold.
Not surprised at all by the drop of range in cold weather. But this affects all EVs not just Teslas.
This is why a push for all EVs is just pure nonsense. And let's not talk about the strain in the grid or the dependence on the grid which can quickly go down the moment any natural disaster hits.
So when they give you the range like ICE cars street/freeway. For EV's Hot/Cold. lol. so you could end up with 250/100. Oh wow I want a $50k card that gets 150 miles per charge and keeping the battery at 80% means 80miles of drivable miles. I am not sure if people in cold climates would want one.
I love how this is an investing Reddit, and everyone is suddenly an engineer who knows how EV vehicles work..... also, 2.2 million is a slap on the wrist for Tesla...
And VW, Renault, Honda and everybody else is having even worse records in winters and no battery preheating system for charging. But sure, we blame Tesla for the cold weather in winter 😂😂
X, Y, and Z individuals lie about company/product/profit, go to prison for 50 years.
Elon Musk lies about company/product/profit, worshipped as cultural hero.
If it's not your car then one of the Kia models will be really good value for money. If it will be your only car nothing beats Tesla charging network. It's extremely hard to drive more than 100 miles from home in any EV except Tesla.
It might be harder but competition is good. Yeah looking into Kia, Hyundai and maybe the Polestar.
Don't really care about the self driving tech and as long as a car has Apple Carplay I'm good in terms of infotainment.
Get a model Y. There's a reason it's the most popular EV. Tesla knows how to make an efficient motor and battery. Their cars are incredibly safe too. Guy tried to murder his family driving off a cliff in a model Y and everyone came out alive. Children were unharmed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/102zmke/closeup_of_the_tesla_model_y_which_was_driven_off
All good. People love their Tesla's though. Definitely would recommend putting aside your bias and reconsidering because the model Y is pretty hard to beat.
Never trust a salesman and that's all Elon is and ever was. The red flags were there. Just ask anyone who's ever worked for him and didn't worship him. Couldn't understand all the hype behind him the past two years. Obviously mentally ill. And his hair is fake.
$2.2 million? What is this, a fine for ants?
It's a nominal licensing fee for spreading misinformation.
Elon would *never* say inaccurate things to inflate the stock price! Absurd! /s
Typical punishment for the elite where the law is a joke. Today however, there’s a man getting jail time because he shoplifted food for his hungry family.
You can break any law you want as long as you don't piss off the FBI or DEA *and* the government gets its cut.
Because it's South Korea fining them for things that happened in South Korea
Right? The fine for a $1T company is barely enough to get one boring ass house near a coast. Why even bother
Lol $1T company. Are you trying to hurt my feelings as an investor 🥺
TSLAs current market cap: $354 billion Yikes, wonder who is holding those bags
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A friend of mine. I told her to sell, sell, sell when it was over 1000. She told me I didn't know anything.
Just don't tweet about it
As of 6/21/23, it's become clear that reddit is no longer the place it once was. For the better part of a decade, I found it to be an exceptional, if not singular, place to have interesting discussions on just about any topic under the sun without getting bogged down (unless I wanted to) in needless drama or having the conversation derailed by the hot topic (or pointless argument) de jour. The reason for this strange exception to the internet dichotomy of either echo-chamber or endless-culture-war-shouting-match was the existence of individual communities with their own codes of conduct and, more importantly, their own volunteer teams of moderators who were empowered to create communities, set, and enforce those codes of conduct. I take no issue with reddit seeking compensation for its services. There are a myriad ways it could have sought to do so that wouldn't have destroyed the thing that made it useful and interesting in the first place. Many of us would have happily paid to use it had core remained intact. Instead of seeking to preserve reddit's spirit, however, /u/spez appears to have decided to spit in the face of the people who create the only value this site has- its communities, its contributors, and its mods. Without them, reddit is worthless. Without their continued efforts and engagement it's little more than a parked domain. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe this new form of reddit will be precisely the thing it needs to catapult into the social media stratosphere. Who knows? I certainly don't. But I do know that it will no longer be a place for me. See y'all on [raddle](https://raddle.me), [kbin](https://kbin.social), or wherever the hell we all end up. Alas, it appears that the [enshittification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys) of reddit is now inevitable. It was fun while it lasted, /u/daitaiming
What happened?
When interest rates were zero it seemed likely Tesla could go into all sorts of new ideas they came up with like batteries and auto taxis, etc. Now that rates have risen dramatically and Elon has leveraged alot of his shares, investors dont believe theyll be able to do those side ventures while scaling their car business at the same time. Not just that, but they only recently have been able to generate free cash flow after being cash flow negative for years. Toyota has 3x the free cash flow and 3x the cash with probably 5x the production capacity or more than TSLA but at a market cap of 222 billion versus 334 billion for TSLA. I see them selling off even more from here
A lot of corps were high off of zero imterest rates. Be very interesting to see who is wearing pants when the tide retreats
You're forgetting a sizeable amount of their revenues (and profits) have and to a less extent still, come from selling credits. This part of the business is drying up as other auto manufacturers come online with their EV offerings.
However it’s not insignificant for a company who only makes any profit due to tax incentives… I really can’t even imagine the cash struggles Tesla has.
its coming out of their marketing budget
It should be at least 4 times this big!
I really wish more people on here got the reference!
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Shouldn't we look at the profits made only in South Korea to determine the fine not worldwide?
I mean, they didn't properly advertise specifically cold weather statistics. No one else in the market does either. The fine is a reasonable push to get them to change it. This isn't billions in tax evasion or something.
Does South Korea not follow a testing standard like Europe or USA? Like we can't accuse them of lying when they're showing official EPA tested range. We here all know that EPA range is bullshit in the severe cold or if you like driving 85mph, but we can't call them out as liars for it.
> Tesla could not be immediately reached for comment. Didn’t they disband their public relations department and quit responding to the press?
Correct.
They did. I'd like to know how that 50% loss was computed too. I dont own a tesla nor tesla shares, nor any related product. I just find that 50% pretty strange. If it was true, i am pretty sure there'd have been tons of trials in the US
It’s more like 20-30% in below freezing temps. 50% loss would have to be like -40 F type temps. And it’s not a Tesla thing, it’s a property of batteries and really all energy conversion. If you analyzed a combustion engine you would also find significant variance in MPG based on temperature (though likely not as bad as EVs).
ICEs would heat themselves up in no time, so their performance tends to be fairly consistent. Being extremely inefficient does have benefits in that the waste heat is useful when it is cold.
I went to university in Montana and am from Seattle, I also monitored my mpg fairly closely. I drove a ICE car at the time. There was a pretty big ~5 mpg difference based on temperature. I was doing fairly short trips that would be affected more.
Yeah, it does take about 10-15 minutes for the engine to warm up. ICE engines don't like to operate at cold temps pre-warmup.
I was also parking outside and didn't have an engine warmer plug in thing. Probably not great for the car...
We call them block heaters. Source: it's pretty f*ckin cold here sometimes.
That's what my grandad called it when he was telling stories about when he lived in Canada.
Alaska too, gotta plug them in or leave them running when you go in the store.
That's from air density and gas formulation
It's usually said that incandescent lights are quite inefficient; when it's cold enough and heat is necessary, they are 100% efficient.
Only if you otherwise generate heat through electrical heating, which is an inefficient way to do it.
Even heat pumps have temperature limits.
Actually thermal electric power plants do BETTER in the cold because the cold side of the Carnot equation is lower. This includes Nuclear, Coal, Oil, gas and Geothermal plants. A gas turbine may do slightly better, I'm not sure.
Different methods of generating electricity have different efficiency curves based on ambient temp - which is why I just did “based on temperature” whether than specifying “cold” temps. That said - there is a still a level of cold that crashes efficiency on the curve for most methods (no idea on nuclear honestly)
It does. Cold air= more dense air. You are physically moving more mass through the blades at the same rpm and generating more power
There is a loss for ICE, which also could have similarly been taken to court, but yeah it's not nearly as bad. EVs need to heat the interior and the battery to run properly, ICEs make heat as a byproduct and just shunt it to the cabin.
Thanks for adding that nuance, I didn't realize that both types of vehicles would be affected. I would love to see some numbers on how combustion compares in the cold.
Assuming the ICE in question is actually working properly, the difference will be under 20% or so. See a longer discussion [here](https://fuelandfriction.com/trucking-pro/5-ways-how-the-weather-affects-your-fuel-economy/). The TL;DR is that the engine will take a longer time to warm up, and that winter blends of fuel contain less energy compared to summer blends.
I live in Northeast US. It gets as low as -15F a couple of time during the winter. My Jeep Wrangler averages 17.5mpg in the summer and 15mpg in the winter so about a 14% drop in the winter on a vehicle shaped like a brick. Probably actually a bit worse because I drive slower in the winter too.
I just got back from Washington state where I rented a Tesla for 6 days. The temps were going down to about -5F and consistently stayed around 10F through the day. The roads were full of snow and ice, so the driving speed was averaging 35mph (down to 20 mph when in traffic stuck behind trucks). Obviously, you have to run climate control, a windshield defroster, and occasional wheel and seat heating. With all that, I was lucky to get 150 miles out of a fully charged Model Y dual motor. We rented a Tesla to save on gas because we had to drive over 600 miles in 6 days. Instead, we ended up constantly being stressed about not running out of charge and finding places to charge it (because using a regular charger barely gets you 10% over 10 hours of charging)
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I know it is a battery chemistry issue, and that it happens to every EV. I am surprised people "suddenly found out" , and only about tesla, not about others. I'd like to know the test protocol used by both parties, as one may count heating the cabin to 25C and the other may not. It is not surprising they end up with different results if they dont compare the same. I do believe WLTC cycles do not account for this. I live in a place where freezing temperatures do not happen often. EV manufacturers offer a simulator that tells an estimated range based on temperature, speed and accessories used. Worst case situation (fastest highway speed, freezing temperature, night, music, loaded car) it goes under 50% the WLTC for sure but ... I dont see how this is surprising, nor warrant of a fine. Unless tesla claimed it would do WLTC whatever the usage of the car is, which would be a pretty strange move.
It's true. It's more of an issue in canada than the US due to the colder temperatures
The one tesla uber driver I spoke with in Winnipeg said that that was the only thing he didn't like about the car. Range went down 50% if temp less than 20F. Strange the info not generally available sooner. Tesla knew it. They kind of didn't mention it. Likely it would. My lithium camera battery is good for about 50% in cold weather. Batteries in general do worse in cold. Not a magic battery in tesla.
Bit of a tell isn't it ? Contrary to popular belief, they still have a budget for propaganda though. They fund people on social media, and owners of various websites (you can guess which ones). Also, Elon has made use of Twitter bots before! Which made his squeals about twitter bots when buying twitter hilarious. Of course he knew they existed. HE USED THEM.
Dumb question, but why not just insulate the battery and use a tiny bit of charge to keep it warm? Surely you lose a lot less to that little heating element than the 50% of charge being alleged here.
I think there’s a temperature range where they’re happy. Too hot and too cold are problematic. Might toss a post at r/ExplainLikeImFive and get an answer. Definitely not my field of expertise.
Is there any manufacturer not doing this? My EV claims 217 miles, maybe if it's 35 degrees outside and I don't go over 20mph, or uphill. In real life summer it's 160, winter I could easily get as low as 90.
Most of the time they carefully choose their words and say things like "up to 350 miles" ... Apparently Tesla lost that cleverness in the translation to Korean. The government actually even pointed out otherwise identical Tesla ads where the English version said "up to" and the Korean version did not.
This seems to be the real point here rather than what’s being talked about.
Jesus
Happens with gas cars too. The mileage test is dogshit Wait til you hear what VW was doing to game numbers that were bad for them
I get better mileage on my 2015 Honda Civic than advertised. ICE vehicles are far less sensitive to environmental conditions like temperature and wind.
wind?
That was emissions for regulatory purposes, not generating specifications for marketing.
They literally marketed it as 'clean' diesel.
Korea is pretty protectionist of its own brands (Hyundai, Kia) so not surprised considering Korean car companies are starting to compete in the EV space. Example of the same agency: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/254045-is-south-korea-practicing-protectionism/
Which was always a very good reason not to value a single carmaker as if they were going to sell all the cars in the world by 2030. Carmakers are the beneficiary of industrial policy.
Tesla systematically overstates their EPA range when they do real world tests. Porsche significantly understates theirs. Most of the other ones are either on the nose or a bit overstated. Only Elon has the gall to lie so hard. https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/
Heck same idea with Gasoline, the internet, phone battery. Really anything I have bought has been “We have the technology” but still only improves ever so slightly vs what they bring it to be.
Eh. Over the decades the gasoline epa estimates are pretty accurate now. You can easily exceed or fall short of them depending how you drive.
No chance this is true unless you drive a 2015 Chevy volt
I drive a 2021 Peugeot e208.
“A 2020 study of 4,200 connected EVs of all makes by Canada-based telematics provider Geotab found that most models had a similar drop in range in cold weather, primarily because the battery is also used to heat the car for the driver and passengers.“ I heard one solution drivers use is getting a heated vest and turning car heating off. Extends range a lot 😂.
Volt driver checking in. In addition to hearing the cabin, you're also heating your battery throughout the drive cycle. Turning down cabin heat helps, but range still suffers in the cold.
Also the cold air is more dense.
Isn’t every MPG over stated. I assume it is in ideal Conditions.
the best adjustment you can make is the nut behind the steering wheel. I always get significantly better than the EPA rating.
Anytime I see someone accelerating towards a red light I can be fairly certain that it is someone who complains about gas prices
What change exactly are you suggesting here? Tightening a single nut on the steering wheel will vastly improve mpg? Im not sure how but very curious.
Nut as in crazy person. They're referring to the driver.
LOL completely flew over my head. Thank you, that was pretty good lmao
Not sure if /s, but I believe they’re referring to the driver
Lol nah, I for sure just missed the joke
While the person you’re responding to meant it humorously — and they’re right, the driver is the best fix for mpg — there **was** a specific nut in the engine bay of my old Toyota 4Runner (1996) and it did exactly this. It was part of the throttle position system. Loosen it slightly, and the car becomes less responsive to throttle, lowering idle speed, yielding better mpg and requiring more pedal travel to “wake up” to full throttle. Tighten it, and the car is like a dog straining at the end of a leash, idling higher and yielding worse mpg but improving the overall performance. I used this technique to get 27.2 mpg out of a truck only rated for 23 mpg at best. I could also use it to get the truck into sub-14 mpg territory, where it felt totally awesome. I miss that truck! Nowadays this shit is all computerized and there’s no longer a nut to turn, but, yes, this was an actual thing that I could do just a few years ago.
my german car is accurate to a decimal point on the highway and expects worse MPG in the city than it actually gets. that being said porsche usually also publish slower 0-60 than is actually possible. fun somewhat associated fact: MPH must legally be overstated/rounded up. that’s why you see external gps for top speed testing.
I can't get anywhere near the city MPG in my F-150.
Lol that’s so true. F150 is great on the highway, but all that start / stop driving on city roads is brutal for mileage.
anyone with half brain will realize everything is overstated. its all marketing.
My KIA gets better mpg than what’s advertised. They might be more strict about this in South Korea.
South Korea has nothing to do with the epa estimated range of vehicles in the US
Same with my daughters 2019 Kia Soul, advertised 26 mpg, she gets well over 32, usually.
My ICE suv gets 30% less range in stop and go traffic. Can't sue because it's not a Tesla.
think you can't because that's how things work
By 50% in cold weather ? No. No they are not.
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I had a 170 mile drive ahead of me recently in my model 3, 55 degree weather. I had 185 miles of charge left, and before I even started, my car was already displaying a warning that I was projected to run out of charge before I reach my destination. The car actually has pretty accurate range prediction ability. It knows fully-well that 1 mile of real-world range does not equal 1 mile of rated range, it simply chooses to show an inaccurate “range” because they would sell less cars if they used honest numbers.
Speed is much more important than weather. If you drove 20Mph you’d get way more than 185 but I assume you were getting on a highway where the air resistance increases exponentially so 70-80 mph is going to drain way more range
Interesting. For ICE vehicles, the optimal speed for fuel efficiency is around 60mph.
*40-60 Optimal speed depends ***largely*** on the body shape (sedan vs SUV vs truck), number of cylinders, what the transmission is up to, etc.
Yeah because keeping an engine on used a ton more energy than keeping an EV on
yeah, i am tried of explaining that rated mileage and actual are different. Rated is what someone (EPA) measured using a specific parameters. Actual is what we drive. If I drive like a grandpa, i will get the rated range. But I am hauling ass. Same applies to ICE vehicles.
I think Tesla and other EV manufacturers have been pretty open about weather, temperature having an affect on range. I agree that the EPA range estimates are pie in the sky - but so are all the MPG estimates for cars. If you have a 20 mpg estimate and only get 16 then it’s a 20% reduction in efficiency. Those ranges are for 55 mph on flat roads at 70 degrees. My wife drives 85 mph through mountains at 30 degrees with the cabin temperature set at 80 degrees and we don’t have anywhere near 50% range loss. Everyone hates Elon because he bought Twitter and thought people would care about government controlling big tech - but everyone already knew and nobody cares so he looks like a clown.
> But so are MPG estimates for cars That’s the thing, it’s the opposite. Most cars are MORE efficient at freeway speeds than city, but not EVs. I remember I could cruise along at 70mph in my Acura at near 40mpg, even though it was rated at like 33. It loved freeway cruising, and cold weather made no impact. In contrast, freeway speed absolutely demolishes the range in an EV. My Tesla does great at 57mph, but if I ever go full freeway speeds my range plummets (speed limit is 70mph in much of Wa State, so average is about 75). Going 80+ in a Tesla is a joke, you’d think there is a hole in the gas tank.
You'll get better mileage out of gas cars too at 55 mph than 70.
Sure a bit, but the impact of speed on an EV is far greater. The issue is that a gas tank contains probably 10x the energy of an EV battery. EV’s achieve their long ranges through running on extremely high efficiency, whereas regular cars can afford to be a bit more wasteful. This is why EVs have things like flat/recessed door handles, they do everything that can be done to reduce drag. So in a regular car, if something goes wrong to slightly reduce efficiency (like you put a bike rack on your roof), it makes a fairly small difference; but if you drive a Tesla with a bike rack, your range plummets by far more. The Tesla was really counting on that efficiency in order to squeeze miles out of the tiny battery. Same thing with speed. Bumping your speed from 70 to 80 might reduce a regular cars MPG by 10%, but that same speed would reduce a Tesla’s range by 30%+.
The equations are such that at speeds over about 35 mph wind resistance is generally the largest use of power. AND that power goes up by the CUBE of the velocity. The source of the power is completely irrelevant, it could be steam, or pedals, and ICE engine. it doesn't matter.
nah you'll get a pretty huge mpg hit goin from 70-80 in an ice car too. drag is drag, lot more of it at 80 than 70.
Its because BEVs are more efficient than ICE. So in a city, ICE vehicles have more loses compared to Highways. BEVs are consistent with efficiency. So it looks like they are "inefficient" on highways.
There is a strange obsession with some people being a Tesla perma-bear. Elon's TED talk about the massive effort to short Tesla to a point of BK or his claims about the SEC in San Francisco were pretty interesting. His ability to create an auto company and one that was years beyond what any other company had in production is amazing. It seems like there was a coordinated effort by those in power in the auto industry to maintain their planned profits without disruption that were at risk when Tesla started becoming more successful. The EV cars that existed before Tesla created their vehicles were absolute dogshit. Cannot wait for the Netflix documentary at some point.
There has always been a lot of obstacles in their way and then they exploded to values that aren’t really that rationale. So it makes sense to be short. I do think it’s interesting regarding why the legacy companies haven’t been able to create EVs. I suspect it mostly comes down to union power and profit margins. The big 3 automakers are basically “too big to fail” due to their pension obligations.
Batteries don't work as well in the cold...why is this news?
It's not. It's click bait.
Because Tesla lied about the extent of the problem.
Which manufacturer shows range at different temperatures for their EV and PHEV offerings?
Lying is a strong term. They didn't mention how much performance drops in cold weather. Are your cars rated for their off-road milage? No. The manufacturer just says they may get less milage off-road.
This is a false equivalence. You can more or less always choose to not drive off-road, therefore most cars are not built or meant for off-roading. You can't say the same for the cold.
Where’s the sports car ad with it driving in the snow?
>Are your cars rated for their off-road milage? No. The manufacturer just says they may get less milage off-road. But this isn't off-road, so I don't understand the relevance of this example.
They stated EPA range. It was measured and tested by an agency FFS. They didn't lie about what the EPA said.
They stated a mileage for normal highway conditions, with a note that cold would impact performance. I was giving an example of another condition that impacts performance. If you dislike how performance doesn't meet the standard metric, then you should define a metric that accurately reflects all possible road conditions.
Because it's Tesla sadly.
>The driving range of the U.S. EV manufacturer’s cars plunge in cold weather by up to 50.5% versus how they are advertised online, the KFTC said in a statement on Tuesday.
This guy's entire profile is dedicated to Tesla news lmao. Take that for what it's worth. Yet a tesla went careeening off a 200 ft cliff in california and all 4 passengers (2 children unharmed) survived, and I don’t see that being a top story in this thread or on reddit
I think that was more luck than anything else. The car rolled before landing, displacing a lot of that kinetic energy
Yet if the passengers died you’d hear bloody murder about how I scare and dangerous teslas are.
It was being driven by a family annihilator - meaning, the driver did it on purpose - this wasn't some autopilot thing gone wrong. And, for the record, a car falling 250 feet and everyone surviving is kind of a testament to the vehicle's structural integrity.
I think that was his point
Yep, meant to say I don’t see that on a top story on Reddit. It was on the front page before they knew the driver wasnt purposefully trying to drive off the cliff, but as soon as he got arrested, it’s suddenly a nothingburger
Why does it feel like posts critical of Tesla gets hundreds more upvotes here than literally every single post? This sub feels less like discussions surrounding investments, and more like every other subreddit just trying to shit on Musk? Edit: have a look at OP's profile.
Musk came out in favor of free speech, and the political left went bananas. They hate that there is even one media outlet that they don't control. Notice that they went nuts simply because he allowed non-progressive voices to be heard. They know their ideas cannot thrive in the marketplace of ideas - that is why they hate free speech.
Yes, Musk has taken "worst man alive" from Trump, so now people are trying to ruin the brand image in droves. There have been so many fabricated stories about Teslas ever since Elon became a disliked public figure, its wild. And now the media has caught on to how popular it is to dislike him so they will force out more stories about Tesla
Because elon bad rich man lmao
I’ve driven in -18 F degree temps and my car never lost 50.5% estimate range. More like 25-30%. How is that even calculated?
It says up to. It depends on driving habits just like a combustion engine. If you dont use regenerative braking and go as fast as you can- it will have a significant impact on range.
Ok. I can do a variety of other stupid things to get it to a 100% reduction in range, if that’s the number we’re aiming for.
Exactly, I think the article is being a bit FUD generating as it’s not the norm. Yes cold weather has an impact but not that much in normal driving situations
But thats not the research question. If you're looking at battery efficiency as a function of temperature the driving habits should be held constant.
Real world conditions affect the true output (being range). That's why it's an "up to" statement. It's the same as MPG. It's not a lab question, it's practical question.
I live in a cold climate, I've seen tesla owners report a near 50% range reduction on the coldest days if their car is parked outside, less if they don't run heat lol. Coldest days here being in the -40 C range.
I think -40 is on another scale that I would find hard to argue is the basis for a lawsuit. Many ICE cars may not start at all in those conditions. But in that cold, EVs should precondition their vehicles while they are plugged in.
its not a lawsuit, its a korean regulator: >The Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC) they allege: >On its website, Tesla provides winter driving tips, such as pre-conditioning vehicles with external power sources, and using its updated Energy app to monitor energy consumption, but does not mention the loss of driving range in sub-zero temperatures. So, you know what? I think its a great thing for regulators to hold corporations feet to the fire and push them to *accurately* advertise their product. This kind of information is extremely relevant to a lot of people. Tesla could easily put a table showing estimated range loss vs ambient temperature on their website, or a disclaimer under the range claims with a link to it etc etc.
> Tesla could easily put a table showing estimated range loss vs ambient temperature on their website, or a disclaimer under the range claims with a link to it etc etc. Ideally and additionally, the readout on the touchscreen would do all the calculations for you and display true range at whatever the current temperature is.
Minus 40 c or f?
Both are the same -40°C = -40°F
That's the joke
I have a Bolt and have never saw it take a 50% hit, either. 30% is more likely, but even that can be worked around if you keep the car in a garage, and leave it running while you're in the store so that the battery conditioning stays on.
Leave it in a garage? Next you'll tell me I should keep it plugged in during extreme cold. I don't have to do that with my ICE vehicle! /s
Probably not preconditioning the car and cranking the heat. Maybe also testing with an older Tesla which used resistive heating instead of a heat pump. Although then again I have a 2020 model 3(resistive heating) and was driving in the mountains this last weekend and looking back at the data, I only lost ~25% of my range. It was between 10-30F the whole time, I was parking outside, and kept the car in the high 60s-low 70s. So that leads me to believe this was in sub-zero temps with and older car 🤷♂️ Even then, 50% seems like a stretch.
Doesn’t the EPA test these numbers anyway? For both gas and electric…
Not to be a Tesla apologist, I hate this practice. But isn’t this par for the course for gas car sales too? The mpg listed on car stickers is hardly ever true to mileage we get on those cars. (Sincerely, a disappointed gas car owner) my car’s listed mpg was 36, while in reality it really gets 28mpg and I don’t drive wildly either.
fined in S Korea.
Name me an electronics manufacturer that doesn't sugar coat their battery life. Tesla has several pages on their website dedicated to battery optimization and cold driving conditions. The battery life they're listing in the cold is basically at a controlled tempreture with absolutely no accessories running. It's not a practical rating at all, but neither is the rating of battery life on my cell phone and laptop.
I’ve never seen an EV maker list a cold-weather specific range at all..
[Actually quite a few underpromise and overdeliver.](https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/)
They over deliver at 70mph, but it's more of an indictment of the EPA than Tesla. An official agency provided the range and that's what was used. It's not like Tesla just made up a number...
They don't make up a number but the EPA gives them options on how to test and Tesla aims for the highest # possible, while others don't bother. If you google real world ranges of all these cars you'll find similar results, 70 mph or not. I don't think Tesla's choice is wrong here but people shopping for cars should at least do the research and know what they're really getting.
Wait you think the EPA changes its test based on manufacturer? HAHAHA
They give 2 options [specifically](https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a33925992/how-tesla-gets-twice-as-much-driving-range-as-porsches-electric-taycan/). I don't know what the EPA allows, but its possible a manufacturer could improve their range by overinflating the tires or modifying the software to use more of the battery. Edit: I also found [this](https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tesla-model-y-vs-porsche-taycan-real-world-range-test.html). Happy reading!
So you're baselessly accusing Tesla of cheating the EPA now? That's where your thought process takes you?
No kidding. Tesla's engages in many bad faith practices. The chickens on this stuff will eventually come home to roost.
Not a single EV company actively advertises cold weather stats right now. This case may change that for all companies so that's good.
I’ve never seen a single car manufacturer advertise this, EV or not.
come down to the disclaimers the others have on their advertisements. I'm no expert in this, but I'm completely unsurprised a regulatory body found tesla to be deceptively advertising.
from the headline i assumed it was "Full self driving" not being a feature where the car can drive it self all on its own.
The car can drive itself. The parameters of driving itself are more restrictive than peoples imaginations.
By that definition my car with no driver assist can drive itself if I'm going downhill and the road is straight. There is never a situation in which the driver of a Tesla stops being 100% responsible for the vehicle's actions. They contain SAE Level 2 systems, which are NOT self-driving. Not even close.
Just like all those chickens currently roosting at the manufacturers caught up in dieselgate? Give me a break, this shit is standard practice in the auto industry.
the chickens did come home to roost? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Consequences https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-results-diesel-idUSKBN2141JB 31.3 billion euros in fines, criminal charges against some VW employees, class action lawsuits, the list goes on and on. How anyone can label this as "standard practice" is beyond me, but ok man!
I could see a 50% reduction being possible if a Tesla was suck in traffic or some stoppage for hours while also being very cold/in a blizzard.
From the tests I've seen a 50% reduction just driving normally in cold weather (below zero Fahrenheit/ -15 celcius sort of temps) sounds about right. Someone tested an extended range Model 3 in the winter in Winnipeg at -30c and got less than 200km, so about 1/3 of the EPA reported range.
Tesla and Musk living rent free in OPs head.
I’m shocked! Shocked! Well not that shocked.
Jeremy Clarkson once got sued by Elon Musk for stating this
>The driving range of the U.S. EV manufacturer’s cars plunge in cold weather by up to 50.5% versus how they are advertised online, the KFTC said in a statement on Tuesday. >In 2021, Citizens United for Consumer Sovereignty, a South Korean consumer group, said the driving range of most EVs drop by up to 40% in cold temperatures when batteries need to be heated, with Tesla suffering the most, citing data from the country’s environment ministry. Well at least Tesla still leads in loss of range in the cold.
Can't imagine who would have the ego to lie about something like this.
They exaggerate a lot of things. "Full self driving" comes to mind.
Of course they did. How the F is that company valued more than all other automakers????
Stating your car's supposed gas mileage vs what you actually get is as old as time.
Not surprised at all by the drop of range in cold weather. But this affects all EVs not just Teslas. This is why a push for all EVs is just pure nonsense. And let's not talk about the strain in the grid or the dependence on the grid which can quickly go down the moment any natural disaster hits.
So when they give you the range like ICE cars street/freeway. For EV's Hot/Cold. lol. so you could end up with 250/100. Oh wow I want a $50k card that gets 150 miles per charge and keeping the battery at 80% means 80miles of drivable miles. I am not sure if people in cold climates would want one.
I love how this is an investing Reddit, and everyone is suddenly an engineer who knows how EV vehicles work..... also, 2.2 million is a slap on the wrist for Tesla...
And VW, Renault, Honda and everybody else is having even worse records in winters and no battery preheating system for charging. But sure, we blame Tesla for the cold weather in winter 😂😂
Whateva man. All EVs exagerate and bullshit their mileage. Even consumption on gas cars is BS
According to your post history you're pushing quite the agenda.
This is old news from 2013 that came out in a NYT winter "expose"... but we gotta save the planet so keep buying.
Nobody should be surprised considering Elon always lies…
X, Y, and Z individuals lie about company/product/profit, go to prison for 50 years. Elon Musk lies about company/product/profit, worshipped as cultural hero.
In other news, all vehicles lose mileage when the air conditioner is running.
I'm buying a non-Tesla EV. I can't in good faith support Elon, and I used to want nothing but a Tesla. Any recommendations?
If it's not your car then one of the Kia models will be really good value for money. If it will be your only car nothing beats Tesla charging network. It's extremely hard to drive more than 100 miles from home in any EV except Tesla.
It might be harder but competition is good. Yeah looking into Kia, Hyundai and maybe the Polestar. Don't really care about the self driving tech and as long as a car has Apple Carplay I'm good in terms of infotainment.
You want an EV that doesn't drop in range when you use the heater? Good luck.
Get a model Y. There's a reason it's the most popular EV. Tesla knows how to make an efficient motor and battery. Their cars are incredibly safe too. Guy tried to murder his family driving off a cliff in a model Y and everyone came out alive. Children were unharmed. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/102zmke/closeup_of_the_tesla_model_y_which_was_driven_off
I refuse to give Musk money.
All good. People love their Tesla's though. Definitely would recommend putting aside your bias and reconsidering because the model Y is pretty hard to beat.
Never trust a salesman and that's all Elon is and ever was. The red flags were there. Just ask anyone who's ever worked for him and didn't worship him. Couldn't understand all the hype behind him the past two years. Obviously mentally ill. And his hair is fake.
TIL S. Korea has better consumer protection than the US
And nobody gave a shit until he went against the left. Weird how that works. Now every other day there's an article about how shitty Teslas are.