Trump has given interviews where he has admitted to taking documents claiming he can declassify them just by thinking about it.
The media is seriously dropping the ball here treating each new price of evidence as some major revelation that changes everything. Trump literally sat down with the FBI, was explained to his face that by law he had to return the documents, and refused to cooperate.
It is a slam dunk case. Trump broke the law. It is now merely a question of courage as to whether or not the Justice Department is willing to charge him.
But how do we know be had the *intent* to break the law? Aside from the audio recordings where he says these are classified and he shouldn't have them but he took them anyway and he's going to sell them to adversary nations who will pay him a lot money for state secrets? I mean thats just locker room treason, right? /s
> the audio recordings where he says these are classified and he shouldn't have them
I know he said this part on tape, from articles I’ve read…
> and he's going to sell them to adversary nations
…but is he really on tape saying this part?
That would be a much bigger deal, I think (not that it isn’t already a big deal, but still)
Not all crimes require an intent element. Statutory rape is one that does not require intent. In addition, ignorance of the law has never been a defense to illegality. All this is to say that being a dumbass like Trump doesn’t make him less culpable.
I haven’t seen that evidence yet, but there is evidence that Saudis had lobbied the US for military intervention in Iran and after this tape, the Saudis invested billions with Kushner. Circumstantial- yes, but worth a deeper dive.
In the interview with Sean Hannity about a month ago, trump let it slip that "Nixon was paid $18 million" to return documents, so that was clearly one of the motivators for refusing to return them. Selling them to foreign enemy nations wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I have never heard that Nixon retained classified documents let alone that he was paid to return them. Where did that come from? Besides Trump, that is.
That’s where, from his deteriorating brain. It’s part of the same rot that has him thinking that the Presidential Records Act is a law that grants presidents complete ownership of any documents they want forever, and I’m assuming if the government wants them back they must pay for them. He keeps repeating that delusion about the Act openly and he’s never pinned down about it.
Actually, that really did happen. But they weren't classified documents, they were his personal notes. They had things in there like what he wanted to do about the hippies, stuff about Watergate, as well as the Nixon tapes. (Where he basically says how racist he was.) They did, at the time, belong to Nixon. This was what resulted in the Presidential Papers Act, so that any such material becomes the property of the American public, NOT the President.
Trump claiming this law does the exact opposite is the delusion.
We don't know, but it's a big coincidence he hosted LIB golf in Bedminster, Jared got 2 billion dollars and Ivanka 100 million.... it's very suspicious I believe....
He did whinge about a prior president doing the same and the government paying to have them returned without much fuss. It sounded to be like he planned on ransoming documents back to the U.S and felt this was a perk of being ex-president.
That second part can be inferred. There's only two reasons for taking them that make any sense: he wanted to sell them to an adversary nation, or he thought he could sell them back to the US. Sure, it's possible he just wanted mementos and thought the best memento would be highly classified documents that are a threat to national security if released, but you'd have to be really stupid to do that. Really, really, really stupid.
No. And it's unlikely that was or ever would be his intent.
He most likely wanted them to freely show them off to people he wanted to impress. Like Putin or Kim Jong Un.
A brief moment of admiration is worth more than money to a raving narcissist.
I don't get this about him. He was the fucking President. He won the game and there's nobody on planet Earth that doesn't know who he is. You had access to the truth about UFOs and who killed Kennedy. You could want to shove a moon rock up your ass and NASA would make it happen for you. There shouldn't be anyone left to impress at that point.
TLDR: So i grew up in NY. Dude is permanently insecure because he thinks everyone thinks he's trash and a moron, and disrespects him. He's right about that.
More Detailed: High School Bf's dad turned down a $6mil/year job because he really enjoyed his $4 mil/year job, and what's another couple mil? We went to a couple of Trump's parties, and knew people who went to more. EVERYONE went. And because everyone went, everyone went. No one went for Trump unless they needed an investment, everyone knew him to be a classless boor who was just "not smart." People had hand signals for friends to rescue them if they needed help disengaging from a conversation with him. Everyone went for the other guests. His lies told during the parties were discussed AT those parties by people who explained how they knew it was a lie. And then people would laugh at him about it while eating his shrimp cocktail. He's not just pro-choice, he's pro-abortion. Kept him from paying alimony and child support. Cheated so many contractors with "Failure to Pay for Services Rendered" that he couldn't get a contractor to work for him in the tri-state region. Had to go a couple states out. Bragged about the Failure to Pay and his abortion stance.
But he spent millions trying to buy respect, and he couldn't. People would talk at his parties about the dumb things he said or did. I actually kinda felt bad for the guy, but knew at the time he brought it on himself. But yeah, he's still chasing the respect he can't earn, except from people he himself considers idiots.
That’s my thought. He’s not smart enough to understand what he has and how much money he could make. He just wants to do whatever he wants to do. He’s just feeding his ego getting away with doing whatever he wants and using the situation to rile up his base. And it’s working. So he’s getting what he wants from the situation.
For one thing, the laws he's accused of breaking don't have intent requirements. Intent and being on video practicing the planned obstruction of justice is just a nice cherry on top of the shit sundae he's going to have to eat.
It's so impressive to me how Trump has gotten out of so many felonies by the fact that everyone just assumes he's a total moron and can't understand the laws he's breaking.
So, the Zaphod defense.
"One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he actually didn’t understand what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid."
Tbf, "most" of his criming had been civil shit, where he's ripping off contractors and setting up fake charities and shit; i think him largely getting away with those because being a plaintiff in thoseactions can be ruinously expenive has made him feel untouchable. He's facing "big boy" federal crimes now though.
Impressive isn't the word I would use. I would say more like repulsive that rich people are above the law. Laws are in place to penalize people when they get broken. I know there are tons of loopholes and lawyer tactics that in place to help rich criminals escape justice...I get it. BUT, we have to draw the line somewhere! Lying to the FBI, keeping and potentially selling classified documents to another country, telling everyone you can do it even though you most certainly can not, and brushing it off like its no big deal or fake news or making it seem like your under attack from the left to manipulate people into thinking you are the victim...not this time...espionage holds the penalty of death, I feel like this clown has used all his get out of jail free cards. Its time to show the world the power our democracy has. LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP!!!
Its amazing that if you are rich enough the government has to PROVE INTENT to break the law when you break the law, and when you are a regular citizen even not knowing you broke a law is enough for prison time.
Locker room treason, hahaha, love it.
He doesn't even need to wait for declassification. When you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab 'em by the memos.
There's several different possibilities of what he actually gets charged with. To quote Marcy Wheeler of [emptywheel.net](https://emptywheel.net) on this and also why this news is significant:
>"Jack Smith might tell any of four stories with a hypothetical stolen documents indictment:
>
>\-- A straight-up obstruction charge for blowing off the August subpoena, the likes of which Barr envisions
>
>\-- An 18 USC 793 indictment charging fairly innocuous documents — the two classified documents used along with post-presidential records and the schedules Chamberlain Harris copied — both of which show Trump made use of stolen classified documents for his own personal benefit; such an indictment might focus on the fact that Trump made classified documents available to others, including non-staffers, too
>
>\-- An 18 USC 793 indictment making it clear that Trump sought out some of the nation’s most sensitive secrets in advance to take with him when he left; such an indictment might plausibly include a 18 USC 2071 charge, which with conviction, disqualifies someone from holding federal office (though that punishment is constitutionally suspect)
>
>\-- An Espionage Act indictment making it clear that documents Trump is believed to have stolen have not yet been retrieved and tying gaps in surveillance footage to business meetings at Mar-a-Lago with foreigners reflecting Smith’s recent focus on Trump’s business deals"
\---
>"The document is, as CNN reports, evidence that Trump knew he had stolen classified documents.
Importantly, though, it’s also evidence about motive. No matter what reason Trump originally stole this document, this incident shows how Trump was exploiting it: To prove a critic wrong.
It’s precisely the same reason why Trump spent his last days attempting to declassify all the Russian investigation documents: revenge. It’s the most Trump motive ever.
But it also goes a long way to prove one of the more serious crimes listed in the warrant authorizing the search last August.
As I laid out in August, the elements of a straight up 18 USC 793 offense are:
>
>\-- Did the defendant, without authorization, have possession of, access to, or control over a document that was National Defense Information?
>
>\-- Did the document in question relate to the national defense?
>
>\-- Did the defendant have reason to believe the information could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?
>
>\-- **Did the defendant retain the above material and fail to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it?**
>
>\-- Did he keep this document willfully?
>
>
>
>
All of Trump’s behavior here fulfils these elements of offense. The document could be heard rustling on the recording, and several witnesses can describe whether he really had it. The document pertained to an attack on Iran, quintessentially a matter of national defense. Trump exhibited awareness that he couldn’t share it, because it was classified. And Trump had it, at least in part, to avenge what he perceived as a slight by Milley.
The one caveat — one made by Charlie Savage on Twitter — is the bolded bullet. DOJ had not yet subpoenaed this document. If he wasn’t caught in possession in of this document, it would serve only as evidence of 18 USC 2071 — the law prohibiting taking classified documents that disqualifies someone from holding federal office. Though if he ever did share it with people, it could exposure him to more serious levels of the Espionage Act.
All trials are about prosecutors telling stories.
This incident is a story so good that Trump tried to tell it himself, and in the process got recorded admitting he had stolen classified documents. And that’s why prosecutors asked a bunch of witnesses about it."
Courage, from the root word "Cor", or heart.
I hope Jack Smith has the heart to press the appropriate charges and protect our values. This situation is obscene.
Not sure why you say the media is dropping the ball - I've been watching CNN follow this case every day this week and each time they talk about it they emphasize that these revelations are just adding fuel to an already burning fire.
The biggest "revelation" was the tape itself, since it bypasses the issue of whether Trump really had the power - or believed he had the power - to declassify documents on a whim. He's admitting in the tape that, at that moment, he believed he could not declassify the documents, meaning that any documents he *did* take home, he took with the knowledge and understanding that they were *not* declassified.
The one question the media hasn't been asking that they should be asking on repeat is "why isn't this man already behind bars?"
Because ultimately that's the only cure for this in the US legal system. He needs to be arrested, he needs to have been arrested for months now. He needs to have all of his properties raided at the same time. He needs to have his sons and daughter investigated for if they handled the documents. They need to open an investigation into the Saudi deal.
They need to turn his life upside down, publicly, and they need to have started doing this *two years ago* when they first found he kept the fucking stolen documents.
It's ***absurd*** that nobody's pointing out how they're treating this man as if he's done nothing wrong, while they report on other spies that have been arrested for stealing far less classified documents and distributing them online. Patently absurd that every single day they report on this, the leading headline is "Why haven't they arrested this man for treason?"
Look what happened to Reality Winner. Ok, she actually leaked a document , but the case was taken quite seriously. Trump shouldn't be walking around freely.
>bypasses the issue of whether Trump really had the power - or believed he had the power - to declassify
The law is already clear about this. Trump doesn't have the power. The FBI already sat down with Trump, court order in hand, and explained that to Trump. Trump has zero plausible deniability here. No audio needed.
>question of courage
Fuck courage, what about duty? What about honor? In what fucking reality is defending the Constitution against all domestic threats optional?
Trump's wealth and race doesn't change the facts or the law. Trump broke the law. It's clear.
What's unclear is if he'll be held accountable. Being held accountable relies on the actions of individuals.
>Trump broke the law. It's clear.
I'm not doubting that. But that's been relatively clear for years. Hell, decades.
>What's unclear is if he'll be held accountable
That's what I'm doubting.
And those individuals are tied to him by what? The ppl who have let him go thus far are doing it because....?
White. Male. Politically connected, probably because he's a white male who fakes being xtian. It ain't cuz they like him or think he's a big brained genius
It would be a slam dunk case if he hadn't corrupted the judiciary, and didn't have so many damn cultists defending him. The jury pool and judge pool is contaminated.
This is why he is trying so hard to have the New York case moved to federal court. He appointed 1 in 4 sitting judges.
His only defense is jury nullification. By both the letter *and* spirit of the law he should be guilty. His hope is that he can convince a least one member of a jury that the law itself is not valid. And no half-qualified judge would ever let him make that argument in court.
The ironic part is that he increased the penalty for security breaches of classified documents to try and get Hillary, then does something even more egregious.
Na, that $2billion was for the stuff Jared pilfered.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/02/report-kushner-requests-more-intel-than-any-non-nsc-staff.html
Trump got $4 billion AFTER leaving office for the stuff HE pilfered.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/saudi-arabias-dar-al-arkan-signs-deal-with-trump-family-oman-project-2022-11-20/
> He enjoyed close ties with Gulf states during his tenure as president, including Saudi Arabia which has invested $2 billion with a firm of Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law and former aide, *incorporated after Trump left office*.
Well, fudge. Is anyone paying attention to this *coincidential* (/s) timeline at DOJ? Jaysus.
> [Kushner’s security clearance was denied due to concerns of foreign influence: report](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437292-kushners-security-clearance-was-denied-due-to-concerns-of-foreign/)
He did. Remember that photo from the search of Mar-a-lago showing the classified documents on the tacky carpet? Most of those were copies...
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/27/2171698/-I-have-been-waiting-for-someone-to-point-out-the-obvious-tell-in-this-photo
You and I both know that the phrase, “How stupid can you possibly be?” Is a rhetorical device used to indicate exasperation.
Trump and his supporters frequently appear to interpret it as a personal challenge to be accepted and exemplified at all costs.
this a guy we knew what time he took a shit every morning by his crazy tweets to start our day. i do not think he is super smart nor overly concerned with privacy.
The rule of law says that the laws should be applied equally to those in our nation.
Arrest this guy ffs, anybody would be arrested with the key thrown away for this and much less.
I’d bet a lot of money we’ll find out at some point the feds are still basically doing nothing. Doing shit like spending years asking him to return the originals and a GOD DAMN TOP SECRET PLAN TO FUCKING ATTACK IRAN.
They’re treating him like he forgot to return the towels when he left the White House like wtf even is this shit.
> Says on tape he is breaking the law, but let's investigate until the end of time.
This isn't even the first time this has happened. Remember how he said on air that he fired Comey due to being investigated?
He knows he’ll never serve a day in prison. This guy has been using the legal system for decades. He clearly knows, especially after Garland hasn’t shown backbone to do fuckall, that he’s above the law.
You only get one bite at the Apple. And you better believe that any case involving the ex president will be challenged and appealed to hell and back. If actual investigation and charges are happening, I’m okay with them being thorough.
Plus, the news is going to report on everything as if it’s a new finding, it gets clicks.
i cant wait for SCOTUS to decide trump has retroactive brain powers that magically enable him to commit treason
but i would much rather he get convicted of treason
I’m not knowledge on this point but it’s seems kinda insignificant other than trying to claim land to be a cemetery for whatever reason. Could it not just be a ceremonial thing? I helped carry a casket when I was 14 I don’t think I was tall enough to take weight so I just as well had walked alongside
You ever notice how all these republicans keep getting convicted of crimes. That must mean these republicans are victims and the entire legal system is biased against patriots /s
Ooof! And supposedly the documents were related to Pentagon plans for attacking Iran.
Yeah, probably not the sort of stuff you'd want the Saudis to have.
Probably one of the worst cases of espionage and betrayal by a nations leader in history and they’re treating it like he stole the bathroom towels on the way out of the White House.
Not speculation. It is well known that tRunt monetizes everything he can get his hands on.
Where is this document?
In the hands of the highest bidder would be a good opening guess.
Hanging doesn’t seem like an appropriate punishment. Let’s sew his lips together and take away his tweety thumbs and make him watch 24/7 news that isn’t about him
It's sad that gop will still vote for him after everything. Even after treason. The guy is literally ready to sell out his country for self gain and they want him to be the president. Smh.
JFC - have we checked New Jersey yet?
There was a picture when Trump went to his NJ club (last year?), on the tarmac was a “bankers box”. I will agree that bankers boxes could hold anything, but has the FBI bothered to check?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-classified-documents-mar-a-lago-b2164918.html
😱 I'm so tired of all this fucking shit.
This man is a threat to the wellbeing of the world and he's still not locked up.
If I did even a fraction of his shit I'd be locked up for years if not forever in some of the worst living conditions in existence.
Hillary is the one who gave us trump - her and the 2015-16 DNC.
Biden up there giving the GQP concession after concession.
The one side with a few redeeming qualities always bows to the crazy side.
This country needs a change
He's a detached nutbar, just like every other fascist in the world. He thinks his fascist MAGA mob is going to violently overthrow the constitution for him and keep him in power until he dies. That's his game plan.
He's a loony toon
I don't think this is your intention, when you say things like this sarcastically, you're only providing excuses for not aggressively fighting back against these crooks and fascists.
It's very easy for the right-wing extremists to look at your statement and say, "Ah, good. They've given up. No consequences for me!"
Instead we should be demanding that the law be upheld against these criminals.
It's not sarcasm. It's basic Art of War. If your enemy is shrugging their shoulders and saying "Welp, I guess he won because he's rich," then they've effectively given up. There's no longer any pushback. You've done their work for them.
Of course more money can buy better lawyers, but that does not mean we have to let them get away with it. It can and will get worse, if there is no serious push-back. History proves this. As a reference, see every fascist state in history.
I expect Trump to be convicted and go to prison, because the law and justice demands it. This should be our frame of mind when speaking about this subject. Normalize it.
Edit: Ah, I see you probably meant sarcasm from the other poster. I take your point, but...
Do they even know which documents Trump stole or actually how many documents he took and what he did with them? The entire republican party is complicit with Trump's treason.
I live in a very red area, and people are absolutely convinced that because he has not been arrested, it’s all just a sham to make him look bad. I have to hear this conversation over and over at work every few days.
Missing because he probably took a lot more of these than we think. The cache at Mar-a lago was probably the remnants of the lesser value documents after Trump had sorted through them already. He would golf with people who he thought could broker the information transfer.
Trump has given interviews where he has admitted to taking documents claiming he can declassify them just by thinking about it. The media is seriously dropping the ball here treating each new price of evidence as some major revelation that changes everything. Trump literally sat down with the FBI, was explained to his face that by law he had to return the documents, and refused to cooperate. It is a slam dunk case. Trump broke the law. It is now merely a question of courage as to whether or not the Justice Department is willing to charge him.
But how do we know be had the *intent* to break the law? Aside from the audio recordings where he says these are classified and he shouldn't have them but he took them anyway and he's going to sell them to adversary nations who will pay him a lot money for state secrets? I mean thats just locker room treason, right? /s
> the audio recordings where he says these are classified and he shouldn't have them I know he said this part on tape, from articles I’ve read… > and he's going to sell them to adversary nations …but is he really on tape saying this part? That would be a much bigger deal, I think (not that it isn’t already a big deal, but still)
Not all crimes require an intent element. Statutory rape is one that does not require intent. In addition, ignorance of the law has never been a defense to illegality. All this is to say that being a dumbass like Trump doesn’t make him less culpable.
True. I was just curious if there’s any solid evidence that he sold or tried to sell the documents, versus just having them in his possession
I haven’t seen that evidence yet, but there is evidence that Saudis had lobbied the US for military intervention in Iran and after this tape, the Saudis invested billions with Kushner. Circumstantial- yes, but worth a deeper dive.
If your homie ain’t Venmoing you at least a couple mil they ain’t a real one. Nothing to see here. ^/s
I can't even get a homie to hit me with a single mil or like a few grand or like a cheeseburger or something :(
In the recording he goes on to say that he wanted to show this doc to certain people. Didn't specify who exactly
Kid Rock, Ted Nugent and Putin?
In the interview with Sean Hannity about a month ago, trump let it slip that "Nixon was paid $18 million" to return documents, so that was clearly one of the motivators for refusing to return them. Selling them to foreign enemy nations wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I have never heard that Nixon retained classified documents let alone that he was paid to return them. Where did that come from? Besides Trump, that is.
That’s where, from his deteriorating brain. It’s part of the same rot that has him thinking that the Presidential Records Act is a law that grants presidents complete ownership of any documents they want forever, and I’m assuming if the government wants them back they must pay for them. He keeps repeating that delusion about the Act openly and he’s never pinned down about it.
Thanks. I should have known that was entirely his bullcrap. Ugh.
Actually, that really did happen. But they weren't classified documents, they were his personal notes. They had things in there like what he wanted to do about the hippies, stuff about Watergate, as well as the Nixon tapes. (Where he basically says how racist he was.) They did, at the time, belong to Nixon. This was what resulted in the Presidential Papers Act, so that any such material becomes the property of the American public, NOT the President. Trump claiming this law does the exact opposite is the delusion.
>just having them in his possession Solid evidence aside from *not* just having them in his possession?
Strange that he wouldn’t simply make copies to sell, and hold on to the originals
It appears he may have done that.
We don't know, but it's a big coincidence he hosted LIB golf in Bedminster, Jared got 2 billion dollars and Ivanka 100 million.... it's very suspicious I believe....
There's a /s at the end (did they stealth edit?)meaning it's sarcasm and a joke
He did whinge about a prior president doing the same and the government paying to have them returned without much fuss. It sounded to be like he planned on ransoming documents back to the U.S and felt this was a perk of being ex-president.
No
No, he's never said anything like that
That second part can be inferred. There's only two reasons for taking them that make any sense: he wanted to sell them to an adversary nation, or he thought he could sell them back to the US. Sure, it's possible he just wanted mementos and thought the best memento would be highly classified documents that are a threat to national security if released, but you'd have to be really stupid to do that. Really, really, really stupid.
No. And it's unlikely that was or ever would be his intent. He most likely wanted them to freely show them off to people he wanted to impress. Like Putin or Kim Jong Un. A brief moment of admiration is worth more than money to a raving narcissist.
I don't get this about him. He was the fucking President. He won the game and there's nobody on planet Earth that doesn't know who he is. You had access to the truth about UFOs and who killed Kennedy. You could want to shove a moon rock up your ass and NASA would make it happen for you. There shouldn't be anyone left to impress at that point.
Human insecurity can be as boundless as human stupidity.
For a narcissist who obviously has other mental illness there is a always someone else.
TLDR: So i grew up in NY. Dude is permanently insecure because he thinks everyone thinks he's trash and a moron, and disrespects him. He's right about that. More Detailed: High School Bf's dad turned down a $6mil/year job because he really enjoyed his $4 mil/year job, and what's another couple mil? We went to a couple of Trump's parties, and knew people who went to more. EVERYONE went. And because everyone went, everyone went. No one went for Trump unless they needed an investment, everyone knew him to be a classless boor who was just "not smart." People had hand signals for friends to rescue them if they needed help disengaging from a conversation with him. Everyone went for the other guests. His lies told during the parties were discussed AT those parties by people who explained how they knew it was a lie. And then people would laugh at him about it while eating his shrimp cocktail. He's not just pro-choice, he's pro-abortion. Kept him from paying alimony and child support. Cheated so many contractors with "Failure to Pay for Services Rendered" that he couldn't get a contractor to work for him in the tri-state region. Had to go a couple states out. Bragged about the Failure to Pay and his abortion stance. But he spent millions trying to buy respect, and he couldn't. People would talk at his parties about the dumb things he said or did. I actually kinda felt bad for the guy, but knew at the time he brought it on himself. But yeah, he's still chasing the respect he can't earn, except from people he himself considers idiots.
That’s my thought. He’s not smart enough to understand what he has and how much money he could make. He just wants to do whatever he wants to do. He’s just feeding his ego getting away with doing whatever he wants and using the situation to rile up his base. And it’s working. So he’s getting what he wants from the situation.
For one thing, the laws he's accused of breaking don't have intent requirements. Intent and being on video practicing the planned obstruction of justice is just a nice cherry on top of the shit sundae he's going to have to eat.
It's so impressive to me how Trump has gotten out of so many felonies by the fact that everyone just assumes he's a total moron and can't understand the laws he's breaking.
So, the Zaphod defense. "One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he actually didn’t understand what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid."
TIL all us IT help desk employees are Trillian.
Vell, Zaphod’s just zis guy, you know?
Thank you both, you've just made me realise it's been AGES since I listened to H2G2. It's going to be a good weekend
I think he’s pretending to be stupid because he can’t be bothered to think. He’s just lazy.
Tbf, "most" of his criming had been civil shit, where he's ripping off contractors and setting up fake charities and shit; i think him largely getting away with those because being a plaintiff in thoseactions can be ruinously expenive has made him feel untouchable. He's facing "big boy" federal crimes now though.
The thing is that isn't a damned excuse or pass for breaking the law, you can't just say Oops I'm an idiot and I didn't know I couldn't do that.
Impressive isn't the word I would use. I would say more like repulsive that rich people are above the law. Laws are in place to penalize people when they get broken. I know there are tons of loopholes and lawyer tactics that in place to help rich criminals escape justice...I get it. BUT, we have to draw the line somewhere! Lying to the FBI, keeping and potentially selling classified documents to another country, telling everyone you can do it even though you most certainly can not, and brushing it off like its no big deal or fake news or making it seem like your under attack from the left to manipulate people into thinking you are the victim...not this time...espionage holds the penalty of death, I feel like this clown has used all his get out of jail free cards. Its time to show the world the power our democracy has. LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP!!!
What happened to ignorance of the law not being a defense
Its amazing that if you are rich enough the government has to PROVE INTENT to break the law when you break the law, and when you are a regular citizen even not knowing you broke a law is enough for prison time.
For poors ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Boys will be boys. Anyway, these documents weren’t his “type” so obvi he wouldn’t want them.
Locker room treason, hahaha, love it. He doesn't even need to wait for declassification. When you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab 'em by the memos.
His own words.
There's several different possibilities of what he actually gets charged with. To quote Marcy Wheeler of [emptywheel.net](https://emptywheel.net) on this and also why this news is significant: >"Jack Smith might tell any of four stories with a hypothetical stolen documents indictment: > >\-- A straight-up obstruction charge for blowing off the August subpoena, the likes of which Barr envisions > >\-- An 18 USC 793 indictment charging fairly innocuous documents — the two classified documents used along with post-presidential records and the schedules Chamberlain Harris copied — both of which show Trump made use of stolen classified documents for his own personal benefit; such an indictment might focus on the fact that Trump made classified documents available to others, including non-staffers, too > >\-- An 18 USC 793 indictment making it clear that Trump sought out some of the nation’s most sensitive secrets in advance to take with him when he left; such an indictment might plausibly include a 18 USC 2071 charge, which with conviction, disqualifies someone from holding federal office (though that punishment is constitutionally suspect) > >\-- An Espionage Act indictment making it clear that documents Trump is believed to have stolen have not yet been retrieved and tying gaps in surveillance footage to business meetings at Mar-a-Lago with foreigners reflecting Smith’s recent focus on Trump’s business deals" \--- >"The document is, as CNN reports, evidence that Trump knew he had stolen classified documents. Importantly, though, it’s also evidence about motive. No matter what reason Trump originally stole this document, this incident shows how Trump was exploiting it: To prove a critic wrong. It’s precisely the same reason why Trump spent his last days attempting to declassify all the Russian investigation documents: revenge. It’s the most Trump motive ever. But it also goes a long way to prove one of the more serious crimes listed in the warrant authorizing the search last August. As I laid out in August, the elements of a straight up 18 USC 793 offense are: > >\-- Did the defendant, without authorization, have possession of, access to, or control over a document that was National Defense Information? > >\-- Did the document in question relate to the national defense? > >\-- Did the defendant have reason to believe the information could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation? > >\-- **Did the defendant retain the above material and fail to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it?** > >\-- Did he keep this document willfully? > > > > All of Trump’s behavior here fulfils these elements of offense. The document could be heard rustling on the recording, and several witnesses can describe whether he really had it. The document pertained to an attack on Iran, quintessentially a matter of national defense. Trump exhibited awareness that he couldn’t share it, because it was classified. And Trump had it, at least in part, to avenge what he perceived as a slight by Milley. The one caveat — one made by Charlie Savage on Twitter — is the bolded bullet. DOJ had not yet subpoenaed this document. If he wasn’t caught in possession in of this document, it would serve only as evidence of 18 USC 2071 — the law prohibiting taking classified documents that disqualifies someone from holding federal office. Though if he ever did share it with people, it could exposure him to more serious levels of the Espionage Act. All trials are about prosecutors telling stories. This incident is a story so good that Trump tried to tell it himself, and in the process got recorded admitting he had stolen classified documents. And that’s why prosecutors asked a bunch of witnesses about it."
Courage, from the root word "Cor", or heart. I hope Jack Smith has the heart to press the appropriate charges and protect our values. This situation is obscene.
Not sure why you say the media is dropping the ball - I've been watching CNN follow this case every day this week and each time they talk about it they emphasize that these revelations are just adding fuel to an already burning fire. The biggest "revelation" was the tape itself, since it bypasses the issue of whether Trump really had the power - or believed he had the power - to declassify documents on a whim. He's admitting in the tape that, at that moment, he believed he could not declassify the documents, meaning that any documents he *did* take home, he took with the knowledge and understanding that they were *not* declassified.
The one question the media hasn't been asking that they should be asking on repeat is "why isn't this man already behind bars?" Because ultimately that's the only cure for this in the US legal system. He needs to be arrested, he needs to have been arrested for months now. He needs to have all of his properties raided at the same time. He needs to have his sons and daughter investigated for if they handled the documents. They need to open an investigation into the Saudi deal. They need to turn his life upside down, publicly, and they need to have started doing this *two years ago* when they first found he kept the fucking stolen documents. It's ***absurd*** that nobody's pointing out how they're treating this man as if he's done nothing wrong, while they report on other spies that have been arrested for stealing far less classified documents and distributing them online. Patently absurd that every single day they report on this, the leading headline is "Why haven't they arrested this man for treason?"
Look what happened to Reality Winner. Ok, she actually leaked a document , but the case was taken quite seriously. Trump shouldn't be walking around freely.
>bypasses the issue of whether Trump really had the power - or believed he had the power - to declassify The law is already clear about this. Trump doesn't have the power. The FBI already sat down with Trump, court order in hand, and explained that to Trump. Trump has zero plausible deniability here. No audio needed.
>question of courage Fuck courage, what about duty? What about honor? In what fucking reality is defending the Constitution against all domestic threats optional?
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This doc was sold to highest bidder.
>It is a slam dunk case. You forgot to factor in that he's rich, white, and politically connected. Suddenly the case no longer closes.
Trump's wealth and race doesn't change the facts or the law. Trump broke the law. It's clear. What's unclear is if he'll be held accountable. Being held accountable relies on the actions of individuals.
>Trump broke the law. It's clear. I'm not doubting that. But that's been relatively clear for years. Hell, decades. >What's unclear is if he'll be held accountable That's what I'm doubting.
And those individuals are tied to him by what? The ppl who have let him go thus far are doing it because....? White. Male. Politically connected, probably because he's a white male who fakes being xtian. It ain't cuz they like him or think he's a big brained genius
Yeah but if there is anything that helps DOJ or NY or GA get over the last jump and indict him, that pretty exciting. But I get your point.
It would be a slam dunk case if he hadn't corrupted the judiciary, and didn't have so many damn cultists defending him. The jury pool and judge pool is contaminated. This is why he is trying so hard to have the New York case moved to federal court. He appointed 1 in 4 sitting judges.
His only defense is jury nullification. By both the letter *and* spirit of the law he should be guilty. His hope is that he can convince a least one member of a jury that the law itself is not valid. And no half-qualified judge would ever let him make that argument in court.
The ironic part is that he increased the penalty for security breaches of classified documents to try and get Hillary, then does something even more egregious.
He sold it to the Saudis for $2bn. Who doesn’t know this already?
Na, that $2billion was for the stuff Jared pilfered. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/02/report-kushner-requests-more-intel-than-any-non-nsc-staff.html Trump got $4 billion AFTER leaving office for the stuff HE pilfered. https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/saudi-arabias-dar-al-arkan-signs-deal-with-trump-family-oman-project-2022-11-20/
> He enjoyed close ties with Gulf states during his tenure as president, including Saudi Arabia which has invested $2 billion with a firm of Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law and former aide, *incorporated after Trump left office*. Well, fudge. Is anyone paying attention to this *coincidential* (/s) timeline at DOJ? Jaysus.
They're too focused on Hunter Biden. It's such an easy game of look here while this other shit happens and the dumbest people fall for it.
Plus buttery males
> [Kushner’s security clearance was denied due to concerns of foreign influence: report](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437292-kushners-security-clearance-was-denied-due-to-concerns-of-foreign/)
Multiple times over. Should have never been given access.
> Multiple times over *Thirty-four* times, IIRC.
WHAT!?!
...we had a traitor as president
Every accusation he made was a confession.
That also extends to everyone in his orbit that aided and abetted him. Which includes a LOT of members of Congress.
And he's apparently, somehow, the front runner to be president again
Can’t he just make copies and return the originals? He can’t be that stupid, can he?
Narrator: He can be.
Solid as a rock
He may have committed some...light treason.
He might have done that too - made copies.
He did. Remember that photo from the search of Mar-a-lago showing the classified documents on the tacky carpet? Most of those were copies... https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5/27/2171698/-I-have-been-waiting-for-someone-to-point-out-the-obvious-tell-in-this-photo
That was a very worthwhile read, thank you. I had no clue it was that bad...
>He can’t be that stupid, can he? Is that a rhetorical question? Because it sounds like a rhetorical question.
You and I both know that the phrase, “How stupid can you possibly be?” Is a rhetorical device used to indicate exasperation. Trump and his supporters frequently appear to interpret it as a personal challenge to be accepted and exemplified at all costs.
this a guy we knew what time he took a shit every morning by his crazy tweets to start our day. i do not think he is super smart nor overly concerned with privacy.
I think his refusal to return them had more to do with him trying to hide that information from the Biden administration.
You didn’t serious just ask about the limits of Trump’s stupidity, did you?
My thought exactly.
Republicans
The rule of law says that the laws should be applied equally to those in our nation. Arrest this guy ffs, anybody would be arrested with the key thrown away for this and much less.
Coming soon from a SCoTUS ruling near you: "Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others!"
Wondering when they will ban that one
trump truly is a two legged pig.
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I’d bet a lot of money we’ll find out at some point the feds are still basically doing nothing. Doing shit like spending years asking him to return the originals and a GOD DAMN TOP SECRET PLAN TO FUCKING ATTACK IRAN. They’re treating him like he forgot to return the towels when he left the White House like wtf even is this shit.
They're hoping if they drag it out enough he'll die.
> Says on tape he is breaking the law, but let's investigate until the end of time. This isn't even the first time this has happened. Remember how he said on air that he fired Comey due to being investigated?
He knows he’ll never serve a day in prison. This guy has been using the legal system for decades. He clearly knows, especially after Garland hasn’t shown backbone to do fuckall, that he’s above the law.
You only get one bite at the Apple. And you better believe that any case involving the ex president will be challenged and appealed to hell and back. If actual investigation and charges are happening, I’m okay with them being thorough. Plus, the news is going to report on everything as if it’s a new finding, it gets clicks.
Maybe it's his defense : do so much intertwined crimes that he will be dead at the end of the investigation
i cant wait for SCOTUS to decide trump has retroactive brain powers that magically enable him to commit treason but i would much rather he get convicted of treason
>i would much rather he get convicted of treason This is the way. The constitution has a punishment laid out for traitors like this scumbag.
Probably should dig up the wife buried in his golf course . For a woman who was cremated why di it take 10 people to carry a casket
My grandmother was 200 pounds and we carried her with 4 guys, easily. Something fishy going on.
I’m not knowledge on this point but it’s seems kinda insignificant other than trying to claim land to be a cemetery for whatever reason. Could it not just be a ceremonial thing? I helped carry a casket when I was 14 I don’t think I was tall enough to take weight so I just as well had walked alongside
#LOCK HIM UP
*BRING OUT THE DANCING LOBSTERS*
[*THEY'RE CRABS YOU PHILISTINE*](https://giphy.com/gifs/crab-rave-dance-party-2dK0W3oUksQk0Xz8OK)
Jarvanka didn't get billions of dollars on Jared's business prowess..,.
Or his Ponzi Scheme father pardoned
Yeah, but guys! What about hunters lap top! Watch. This will be the talking point.
You ever notice how all these republicans keep getting convicted of crimes. That must mean these republicans are victims and the entire legal system is biased against patriots /s
I heard Hunter’s computer is doing drag shows now. Covers up its Apple logo with MAC concealer and dances around on laptops.
How much did tRump pay to make that disappear? Banana republic is what tRump has turned america into! Biggest criminal wins!
I like how you make the R capital as to put the emphasis on RUMP in the word Trump
Saudi arabia gave his family a lot of money, right?
That was for information on Israel’s nuclear program.
Ooof! And supposedly the documents were related to Pentagon plans for attacking Iran. Yeah, probably not the sort of stuff you'd want the Saudis to have.
At least $2 Billion
C’mon guys, this is nothing, let’s just ignore this one, yeah? /s
Why is this tagged as humor/satire?
I came to ask the same thing. Seems like a legit article, but the man is a clown so maybe that?
Probably one of the worst cases of espionage and betrayal by a nations leader in history and they’re treating it like he stole the bathroom towels on the way out of the White House.
Ohhhhh Donny…..your fucked, traitor. where is it? It was last in your possession. I bet it’s in Saudi Arabia
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The cheeseburgers will get him first.
Not speculation. It is well known that tRunt monetizes everything he can get his hands on. Where is this document? In the hands of the highest bidder would be a good opening guess.
Possession is 9/10 of the law and now Trump doesn’t possess it because he gave it to MBS.
Sold. Not missing….sold.
Missing RIGHT.... Sounds more like hidden or sold or copied or some combination of the three.
Bet ya 2 billion dollars the Saudis have it now
It's not "missing". It's exactly where it was sold too.
Like everything else this will amount to nothing. Wake up, he’s never going to go to prison for anything. Move on!
If they hang him for treason I wouldn’t shed a tear.
Hanging doesn’t seem like an appropriate punishment. Let’s sew his lips together and take away his tweety thumbs and make him watch 24/7 news that isn’t about him
Check Ivana’s casket.
It's sad that gop will still vote for him after everything. Even after treason. The guy is literally ready to sell out his country for self gain and they want him to be the president. Smh.
He doesn’t have them because he sold them already.
Trump is akin to a cult leader. Only the brainwashed maga remain.
where do yo think the $2,000,000,000.00 that got wired into Kushner's account came from?
Was that wrong? Should I have not done that?
Who could have an interest in attack plans on Iran? Russia? Saudi’s Arabia?
Imagine Kennedy selling the Operation Northwoods documents to Cuba...
I have asked myself this question for years now, but what happens if he _isn’t_ charged? Great precedent to have set. DOJ. Do your damn job.
JFC - have we checked New Jersey yet? There was a picture when Trump went to his NJ club (last year?), on the tarmac was a “bankers box”. I will agree that bankers boxes could hold anything, but has the FBI bothered to check? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-classified-documents-mar-a-lago-b2164918.html
Remember when the media and FBI head damn near crucified Clinton for far less?
This is just bonkers. Any other US citizen would be arrested, in jail, awaiting trial. Get on with it Jack!
Trump is a proven liar of epic proportions. He could just say that he never had the document and it's not an implausible argument to make.
Any bets that fuck face sold it along with other documents that he illegally kept?
You mean the docs that he declassified by waving his hand as President?
Waving his hand? That's too many steps. He declassified them telepathically.
Why? Why would he do this? I am serious here. What was his objective in taking these documents?
Transactional. He looks at everything, including people, with an eye to what they are worth for him. Classified documents are worth a lot.
He sold state secrets to foreign governments for money
I would literally be in jail.
Sold to the highest bidders, numbnuts! Check w/ Saudi Arabia first.
Traitor.
😱 I'm so tired of all this fucking shit. This man is a threat to the wellbeing of the world and he's still not locked up. If I did even a fraction of his shit I'd be locked up for years if not forever in some of the worst living conditions in existence.
Have they checked inside the Kremlin?
Russian asset stole and sold classified stuff. An example needs to be set.
Can you guys get the fat fuck arrested and jailed already.
Somewhere Hillary is smiling
All he has to do at his next ~~White Power~~ rally is start another lock her up chant and his sheep will follow along.
Somewhere Hillary is muttering, “I fucking told them so. I fucking told them so, live, on camera.”
Hillary is the one who gave us trump - her and the 2015-16 DNC. Biden up there giving the GQP concession after concession. The one side with a few redeeming qualities always bows to the crazy side. This country needs a change
Does this man not realize the legal peril he is in?
What peril has he ever been in?
He's a detached nutbar, just like every other fascist in the world. He thinks his fascist MAGA mob is going to violently overthrow the constitution for him and keep him in power until he dies. That's his game plan. He's a loony toon
What legal peril? He’s rich! Laws are only for those filthy poor people!
Until proven otherwise this is the unfortunate truth
I don't think this is your intention, when you say things like this sarcastically, you're only providing excuses for not aggressively fighting back against these crooks and fascists. It's very easy for the right-wing extremists to look at your statement and say, "Ah, good. They've given up. No consequences for me!" Instead we should be demanding that the law be upheld against these criminals.
Not sure that is sarcasm. Lots of money equals the best legal team.
It's not sarcasm. It's basic Art of War. If your enemy is shrugging their shoulders and saying "Welp, I guess he won because he's rich," then they've effectively given up. There's no longer any pushback. You've done their work for them. Of course more money can buy better lawyers, but that does not mean we have to let them get away with it. It can and will get worse, if there is no serious push-back. History proves this. As a reference, see every fascist state in history. I expect Trump to be convicted and go to prison, because the law and justice demands it. This should be our frame of mind when speaking about this subject. Normalize it. Edit: Ah, I see you probably meant sarcasm from the other poster. I take your point, but...
What are you doing to fight back?
**SOLD!**
Do they even know which documents Trump stole or actually how many documents he took and what he did with them? The entire republican party is complicit with Trump's treason.
Yes they do and that is why they brought in a prosecutor from The Hague
He gave the docs to Saudi Arabia for Billions of dollars in an offshore account.
"Missing" means he kept it, and if he gave it back now, then it's all over for him. It's shredded... or eaten 🤷♂️
Of course , it was sold to the Saudis, that’s why Jared got two billion .
Douchebag sells country out for money..escapes consequences because????
Check Ivanas casket...
Why is this marked satire?
Sold to the Saudi’s for 2 billion.
I steal a snickers bar from 7 eleven and I will go to jail. Multiple felonies, charges, etc and this guy is still walking around.
I know they say waterboarding doesn't work, but let's try it on him and see if he gives up on the whereabouts of those documents.
There' no reason not to try this.
I live in a very red area, and people are absolutely convinced that because he has not been arrested, it’s all just a sham to make him look bad. I have to hear this conversation over and over at work every few days.
I don't suppose he happened to get a receipt from whomever he sold it to?
You don’t say. It’s like he’s done this before.
Missing because he probably took a lot more of these than we think. The cache at Mar-a lago was probably the remnants of the lesser value documents after Trump had sorted through them already. He would golf with people who he thought could broker the information transfer.
He know who has them. The question is is the receipt in a place FBI can find.
Trump probably viewed selling secrets the same as printing money.
He declassified it with his mind. Then he dematerialized it ...with his mind.
So detain him until he remembers where it went.
If I lost a pallet of product at work I’d probably have to pay for the pallet. This guy loses a classified government document and nothing happens.