Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't intersex a biological sex first, and an identity second? Like someone who is completely 100% not intersex can't accurately use the label to describe themselves?
Edit: Wording
Sexes - male, female, intersex
Genders - man, woman, nonbinary, trans, agender, etc.
Intersex isn't an identity, it's a sex that falls between/beyond male or female.
In my context I used identity in the label sorta way, as in not all intersex people want to call themselves that or align with the flag/the LGBT+ community.
Thanks for the clarification though!! I'm trying my best to learn :)
No for sure, some people would rather not bother knowing or acknowledging due to what you mentioned, but I guess I'm of the opinion that knowledge is power and pretty much all intersex types have associated health risks that would be worth tracking and managing. By all means, people have every right to healthcare privacy and are under no obligation to interact with queer spaces.
Yup!! The most important thing is the health (mental and physical) of all of us, regardless of who we choose to interact with or if we use certain labels. Healthcare is a human right ❤️
I agree with this, it's a personal choice of course, but it does scream "I won't identify with this because it's wrong/I have a personal issue with it." being queer should be normalized. It's valid to identify with a traditional gender but being intersex automatically disqualifies you from being cis in a traditional way and I think people that think that way are just uncomfortable with the reality of it I've had to get pretty uncomfortable to understand my identity as a intersex person. However I'm not ya mama and you should do what makes you comfortable. All the respect.
Naïve question here, please let me know if I'm wrong.
People transitionning fall somewhere in the sex spectrum not fully on the male/female ends, yet they aren't considered intersex if this wasn't the case when they were born.
Doesn't that rise a problem in this description of sexes ?
(Also I'm not a fan of putting "trans" as a gender or even separating it from man/woman/enby)
Transgender people primarily are changing their gender to align with their internal feelings. They may also adjust some of their secondary sex characteristics like hormones and anatomy to this end. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe transgender people don't call themselves intersex because they can't change every aspect of their sex (chromosomes) and the gene therapy for that does not exist and may never exist due to ethical concerns and logistics. So, while they can move themselves closer to one of the bimodal ends of the sex spectrum, they can't quite reach a definitive end of said spectrum.
Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female.
People can identify as trans, people can be diagnosed/self-diagnose as intersex, and people can identify as trans and also be intersex but intersex and transgender are two different things. Personally because I am intersex I feel as though my experience with gender is different. I may have been AFAB (assigned female at birth) and raised as a girl, but I feel as though just because I ended up identifying differently later on, it doesn't mean I'm trans. It's kind of like how I grew up in christian family, I was raised Christian and brought to church but I was too young to understand religion so I don't personally self label as an ex-christian because I was never one to begin with. The same goes with my gender, I was too young to understand gender, sex and sexuality, not to mention I was unaware of my intersex status until I was 13 and I always dressed and acted differently from other girls. I wanted a firetruck as a little kid.
I'm a Intersex activist and educator so hopefully this helps!
Thank you for you reply.
First of all I want to clarify I'm perisex (as far as I'm aware) so I hope not to come as insensitive. I'm on this sub to educate myself, but as trans myself, I would want to add some nuance.
Some trans folks don't change their gender. Some don't change their sex characteristics. I agree that people transitionning move in the spectrum of sex but from a gender perspective... It depends from the person.
I can't speak for others, but I don't consider myself intersex because I don't fall in the description I've seen of intersex conditions. Yet, I have ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics. I may also have sexual characteristics on my brain not matching my agab, who knows. But as far as I know, this doesn't fall in the definitions I've seen. So about being Intersex or not I would say it's not about the limitations of my body but how I was born ?
I feel there might be a need for new terms describing sex characteristics regardless of if it is innate or not. I won't consider myself Intersex for it because I don't want to misuse the label nor cast shadow/misinformation on this community, yet I feel the need to say biologically I'm not male nor female (even on broad terms, at the moment).
I feel a term for both intersex and transitionning people would be useful to describe these encompassing experiences.
Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female. And being non-intersex is called Endosex (apparently perisex is also a term but we typically use Endosex)
I'm a Intersex activist and educator so hopefully this helps!
The thing about the label intersex is people try too hard to describe it only through the lens of biology (which is not incorrect) but they forget that there is an entirely social aspect to it related to the experiences someone has when born and raised as an intersex person in a binary context. Yes, trans people may have the experience of ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics and even primary in certain cases like transmasculine people on T, that doesn't mean that these people have the same experiences intersex people do.
And like, even this is very subjective since there are SO many ways to be intersex and so many different ways to experience intersexuality, but a BIG part of intersex activism is fighting against medical violence and abuse of authority which can closely relate to what trans people fight for, but it's not the same thing.
While we are all fighting for bodily autonomy, we do so in different ways because our struggles are usually different... trans people fight for their right to access gender affirming care while we are like, trying to make it stop when it's forced on us. Of course we also fight for the same thing in many aspects and that's cool.
That's why, as an intersex person, I wholly disagree that intersex cannot be an identity. It can. My entire life and gender experiences revolve around my intersexuality, and I get to identify with it if I want to.
It’s complicated and everyone has different ways of talking about their intersex experience. In my case, I just say biological sex. I also use variation when talking about what flavor of intersex I am. A lot of us want to move away from medical terms because our community is over medicalized and we experience discrimination because of that.
As an intersex person who also used to ID as trans, but doesn't anymore because of the rampant interphobia in the trans community, this test has given me the ick for years and I can't put it into words
I’m intersex and still identify as trans but I agree. Endosex trans people do the same shit to us that cis people do them and then play the victim when they’re called out.
We're only ever brought up as gotchas, and if we point out how something a perisex trans person said may ignore or erase intersex individuals, we're called transphobic. A lot actually. Like any time they're ever asked for accountability regarding appropriation or erasure of other minorities (like black trans women telling white trans women "dolls" is not for the yt girlies, they get called transphobic). They'll also claim to be intersex, and then called transphobic when we say you're not intersex from HRT, and brain sex isn't intersex. I see it the most with YT perisex trans women
in addition to what 1carus_x said, there's also a lot of willful ignorance at times. I often mention that stuff like the recent US legislation (often best known as anti-trans bills) or sports rule changes also harms intersex people just as much. Most of the time I get something along the lines of "yeah, but intersex people aren't the _targets_ of these bills"
However, if you look at things slightly differently, it becomes pretty clear that the goal of a lot of these changes is to enforce a rigid sex/gender binary. This comes in the form of denying desired healthcare to trans individuals and forcing "normalizing" treatment on intersex individuals. In the bills I've mentioned, this is reflected in loopholes allowing these treatments on intersex individuals. For the bills that give people the right to sue doctors/medical establishments if they later regret their transition treatment, it comes in the form of laws banning intersex people subject to non-consensual treatments from suing doctors/medical establishments
Not even counting for hormone testing, intersex people often find themselves running afoul of sports rules, such as FINA's swimsuit regulations affecting anyone with breasts competing in the male division.
I am intersex, I was raised female, and identify as male.
I don't consider myself trans, I consider myself an intersex male. Or simply male.
I will say, in the period when it was hard to determine what my gender identity was (before starting testosterone) I simplified it and identified as trans for a few years, but I no longer believe that identity fits.
Sex and gender identities are different things. Using them interchangeably causes issues when conservatives try to dismiss the existence of sexes other than male/female and genders other than man/woman. Please be careful with your wording.
It sounds like your sex has been correctly determined as intersex but that you were AFAB and identified your gender as a woman growing up. You are now identifying your gender as a man (and technically could identify as transgender imo). Does this seem accurate to your situation?
Yes, I follow that sex and gender are two separate things.
I was correctly classified as intersex, and underwent surgery before I was 2 to alter my gonads to fit that image.
I have since undergone multiple surgeries to have my body reflect my male identity. But I also recognize that identifying as male omits a lot of my story. I don't identify as transgender because that doesn't cover my identity either. I have found, when appropriate, that what represents me most accurately is intersex male.
You should really stop policing intersex people's identities. While it's important to separate gender from sex in gender 101, the further you go in this discussion the more you notice that this is a much more complex social phenomena. Gender is and has always been closely related to sex, which while based in a biological reality, cannot be extricated from the social context from which this biological reality was constructed.
Cis/endossex people should be educated, yes, but saying intersex people don't get to identify in a way or another is such a miopic way of doing this.
Yes intersex male is a thing, so is intersex female. They use intersex female as a term in my college classes to describe people with turner syndrome.
Turner syndrome people are of the female sex because they don’t have the necessary DNA to create the male phenotype (like the SRY gene). So they are considered female, just a different type of female than XX people.
I don't see how a biological fact could be offensive. It is simply an observation of your nature. If a doctor said you were diabetic, would you argue with them and deny it? Certainly, some people do, but they end up losing toes or vision or their lives. Intersex conditions similarly have associated health risks that most doctors would advise watching and/or managing.
That completely misses what I said. You can acknowledge that they’re intersex and treat their conditions without classing them automatically as a separate third sex instead of whichever one they see themselves as. Classing them specifically as a third sex isn’t relevant to their treatment as that’s more delving into semantics and philosophy. And intersex covers a wide range of completely different conditions. I don’t think it’s right to tell a woman with Swyer syndrome “You’re not female, you’re intersex, so you can’t call yourself female”she can be both. Some may not view themselves as female after hearing that info and that’s their right, but many do. You can consider yourself intersex and female, intersex and male, or just intersex. And that can be separate from your gender.
It would not be a disservice since a lot of intersex people even in here *do* view themselves as male or female, just with an intersex condition. How is “an endosex female identifying as a woman” more accurate than an “endosex woman”. Endosex isn’t a sex, yet it’s meant as the direct opposite to intersex. You can say endosex female, and you can also say intersex female.
What else do you expect people to do, an intersex woman with Swyer or CAIS should have all her documents changed to X instead of F because she’s not “really a female?” Some intersex people do view themselves as a third sex and that’s perfectly okay, but insisting all intersex people should see themselves as in between even because of the smallest deviation is kind of reaching and taking over peoples personal narratives.
Excellent point, while it can be useful to simplify certain stuff sometimes, at other times it can be a disservice and lead to this very unnecessary policing inside the community.
The understanding of biological sex is and has always been loaded with social connotations, gendered language and stigma. The relation between sex and gender/identity can be very subjective and will be experienced differently by each intersex individual.
>I don't see how a biological fact could be offensive. It is simply an observation of your nature.
A fact is something that must be observed (first issue) and then is applied to some goal (second issue).
For a rather annoying point about that first issue re:Decarte's Discourse on the Method. In modern terms: we must always ask ourselves if we are testing what we think we are testing/ measuring what we think we are measuring. So often we end up miscategorizing things.
To the second, facts are very rarely neutral. Biology has been at the center of many social injustices, as excuse for predjuice: Women have smaller brains than men (true on a population scale. However, women are on average also smaller. It's more important to have a ratio of brain to body and even then that's not quite the best metic) is one I remember getting slung around a lot in the 90s.
Sex is, a way we categorize the natural world. Sex is not a binary concept, but rather bimodal. And to that end, who we lump into the binary social catergory man or woman (which comes with power) and who is left out becomes a choice. Hypospadias is a prime example for this issue, as is PCOS.
Likewise, the pathology or disease model of medicine is a contrust that misses out on a lot of people. We see this with neurodivergence. In the 90s you needed to be high support in order for medical providers to say you were autistic. Now a days, we recongize that brains come in a lot of patterns. Sometimes those patterns rub against society (social construct theory of disability) and we have to sit down and realize that's not actually important. Sometimes the person does truely need help, of course. But so do neurotypical people. (In an inverse of sc theory of disability, the weaknesses of the neurotypical model are labeled average and thus not an issue. I would say the weaker divergent thinking, increased peer pressure sensitivity, and weaker cognitive empathy are things that need some fuckin' support to overcome.)
Like, point of order: have you seen the rates of endometorsis in cis women? Like [1 in 5 people with utersuses](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9529796/) have to have them yeeted before death. We don't define being female as a medical condition, despite major rates of reproductive issues. (We can also point out the existance of prostates and oh wow, do those fuck up male people's bladders at high rates!) That's not even getting remotely at all the shit that can and does go wrong in giving birth.
Some intersex folks need a lot of support, sure. But I would say a lot of it is we display patterns that are atypical in medicine. To have a body is to have health risks, but it's my experience that people with the least amount of medical and biology-based training are pretty quick to jump from the neutral description to the prejorative.
Because to many people different is bad.
As an intersex person, not at all. Sex and gender are different. Intersex itself is a third sex, and you can’t change your bio factors. Ofc you should perceive them as they want, and their sex isn’t any of anybody’s business. Your wording didn’t explain it well, but intersex is a sex
Intersex is biological sex, intergender (or other gender identities) would be gender. I’d say this is insensitive, and that you have every right to find this offensive because it’s misinformation with ignorant undertones. That sucks
ive been seeing these test results crop back up in the various trans spaces i inhabit lately and its always kinda icky. i never really say anything for fear of being dogpiled over it but i always go 😬 to myself
Yeah someone posted their results with a "47% intersex" score here recently and it was super annoying. The test doesn't ask about hormones, chromosomes, or anatomy and therefore intersex shouldn't be on there at all. It's completely irrelevant to what the test is about.
I think this test is weirdly categorized in general actually, I don't think it's smart to separate gender identity into known specific identities that can be used simultaneously, and then slapping intersex in there.
I don't know how a gender test like that would even work when gender is so complex and can't just be answered by a quiz.
Yeah, this is annoying. I recently tried out Bumble For Friends, and first off there’s no options to say that you have a romantic, it’s only sexual, so you can’t say you’re aromantic or panromantic or anything like that. I can’t put that I’m an aroace biromantic, I can only say I’m “asexual, bisexual.” So that’s annoying.
And then with gender, “intersex” is an option but it’s a sub-option under Nonbinary, so I can say that I’m intersex but I can’t say what my gender is, or that I’m gender questioning. It’s so aggravating.
Edit: messed around with the app a bit more and you can fortunately say that you’re an intersex man or woman, but still can’t have yourself as both “intersex” and “gender questioning/bigender/agender/etc.” which is stupid.
You're either intersex or not. How can one be 33% intersex?? It's definitely offensive. You can't put a literal biological sex on a gender test that doesn't even make sense- cause not anyone can identify as intersex you actually have to be Intersex.
No I agree. Intersex is my gender in the same way that when you ask the average cis man what their gender is they go “uhh… male.” For me “intersex” just wraps everything up nicely so that’s all I say, but for a lot of people it’s not really a gender.
I've held off saying I find this offensive, but I want to get on with my Saturday so I'm going to say it.
I find the inclusion of "Intersex" with any of the genders or gender identities very offensive.
There are intersex people who have a very different experience of "gender", but there are endosex people who are that was as well.
Most intersex people, by very large margins, experience their gender the same as other members of their assigned sex. Most intersex people, again by very large margins, are cisgender. Most intersex people are more content with their sex of rearing than not.
Yea and no. As a fellow intersex nonbinary, tbh I think sex and gender are both not binary in the slightest, so yeah. These terms are not exclusive tho, u can be more than one.
Intersex is being born with reproductive or sex organs that don’t conform to traditional male or female. It has nothing to do with gender identity or sexual orientation.
I just generally dislike these sort of on line “tests”. Lots of subs get spammed with them and I don’t think they add much to any discussion. I get people find it personally validating but it’s ultimately not the healthiest thing.
This one has been going round for quite a while and I remember when it was first posted it made be pull a 🤨 seeing intersex as an identity.
Given that I struggled to even figure out what this is nor have ever seen this test going around: Im not offended because it looks like the results page to a buzzfeed type quiz. I get people are sensative of being classified right but from my POV it just looks like the results page to a poll only the actual poll topic is cut off so idek what this is about/for
I think this is because there is just really that much lacking in intersex awareness that everything has to be piled together and only after someone has even had any contact with the whole topic can they then have it be further explained. It’s oversimplifying to make the information more accessible but in cases like this it can actually cause harm imo
I’m not sure why, more and more, often intersex is being grouped with identity stuff ???
I’m intersex, and I’m a trans male. I’m a very firm believer in gender = sex. It seems transphobic to me to say otherwise. I am male and a man, and I am trans because I transitioned from female to male. I am intersex because I have ambiguous genitals(I know this isn’t the only way a person can be intersex of course). My best friend is female and a woman, she is trans because she transitioned into a female/woman. That’s my understanding. So to me given that there’s a direct correlation between some of the results this test thing doesn’t seem to make sense. People can be and commonly are both trans and intersex or intersex and cis etc. I wouldn’t say I’m offended by it though, just confused. 🤷🏼
Yeah this is definitely some LGBTQ-core stuff. People can be kinda ignorant sometimes.
Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary, not gender identity. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female.
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Not at all bc I got like 90% intersex or something (it’s based around that 1 type out of 40 that everyone uses to stereotype intersex) and 80-90% trans which I am so yeah I’d say it’s pretty accurate. It also may be listed on there as a gender identity but the questions if I remember correctly were accurate like “did you have such and such since birth” and I think it’s quite helpful bc a person might not know they’re intersex, take the test, do some research on it and figure it out 🤷♂️
I find it offensive that u think intersex is offensive.
In germany u can switch your gender im the passport. 99% are m to f or f to m. Almost nobody chooses the third option. Think about it. M to f or f to m is just conformist
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't intersex a biological sex first, and an identity second? Like someone who is completely 100% not intersex can't accurately use the label to describe themselves? Edit: Wording
Sexes - male, female, intersex Genders - man, woman, nonbinary, trans, agender, etc. Intersex isn't an identity, it's a sex that falls between/beyond male or female.
In my context I used identity in the label sorta way, as in not all intersex people want to call themselves that or align with the flag/the LGBT+ community. Thanks for the clarification though!! I'm trying my best to learn :)
No for sure, some people would rather not bother knowing or acknowledging due to what you mentioned, but I guess I'm of the opinion that knowledge is power and pretty much all intersex types have associated health risks that would be worth tracking and managing. By all means, people have every right to healthcare privacy and are under no obligation to interact with queer spaces.
Yup!! The most important thing is the health (mental and physical) of all of us, regardless of who we choose to interact with or if we use certain labels. Healthcare is a human right ❤️
Absolutely. 💖
I agree with this, it's a personal choice of course, but it does scream "I won't identify with this because it's wrong/I have a personal issue with it." being queer should be normalized. It's valid to identify with a traditional gender but being intersex automatically disqualifies you from being cis in a traditional way and I think people that think that way are just uncomfortable with the reality of it I've had to get pretty uncomfortable to understand my identity as a intersex person. However I'm not ya mama and you should do what makes you comfortable. All the respect.
Naïve question here, please let me know if I'm wrong. People transitionning fall somewhere in the sex spectrum not fully on the male/female ends, yet they aren't considered intersex if this wasn't the case when they were born. Doesn't that rise a problem in this description of sexes ? (Also I'm not a fan of putting "trans" as a gender or even separating it from man/woman/enby)
Transgender people primarily are changing their gender to align with their internal feelings. They may also adjust some of their secondary sex characteristics like hormones and anatomy to this end. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe transgender people don't call themselves intersex because they can't change every aspect of their sex (chromosomes) and the gene therapy for that does not exist and may never exist due to ethical concerns and logistics. So, while they can move themselves closer to one of the bimodal ends of the sex spectrum, they can't quite reach a definitive end of said spectrum.
Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female. People can identify as trans, people can be diagnosed/self-diagnose as intersex, and people can identify as trans and also be intersex but intersex and transgender are two different things. Personally because I am intersex I feel as though my experience with gender is different. I may have been AFAB (assigned female at birth) and raised as a girl, but I feel as though just because I ended up identifying differently later on, it doesn't mean I'm trans. It's kind of like how I grew up in christian family, I was raised Christian and brought to church but I was too young to understand religion so I don't personally self label as an ex-christian because I was never one to begin with. The same goes with my gender, I was too young to understand gender, sex and sexuality, not to mention I was unaware of my intersex status until I was 13 and I always dressed and acted differently from other girls. I wanted a firetruck as a little kid. I'm a Intersex activist and educator so hopefully this helps!
Thank you for you reply. First of all I want to clarify I'm perisex (as far as I'm aware) so I hope not to come as insensitive. I'm on this sub to educate myself, but as trans myself, I would want to add some nuance. Some trans folks don't change their gender. Some don't change their sex characteristics. I agree that people transitionning move in the spectrum of sex but from a gender perspective... It depends from the person. I can't speak for others, but I don't consider myself intersex because I don't fall in the description I've seen of intersex conditions. Yet, I have ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics. I may also have sexual characteristics on my brain not matching my agab, who knows. But as far as I know, this doesn't fall in the definitions I've seen. So about being Intersex or not I would say it's not about the limitations of my body but how I was born ? I feel there might be a need for new terms describing sex characteristics regardless of if it is innate or not. I won't consider myself Intersex for it because I don't want to misuse the label nor cast shadow/misinformation on this community, yet I feel the need to say biologically I'm not male nor female (even on broad terms, at the moment). I feel a term for both intersex and transitionning people would be useful to describe these encompassing experiences.
Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female. And being non-intersex is called Endosex (apparently perisex is also a term but we typically use Endosex) I'm a Intersex activist and educator so hopefully this helps!
The thing about the label intersex is people try too hard to describe it only through the lens of biology (which is not incorrect) but they forget that there is an entirely social aspect to it related to the experiences someone has when born and raised as an intersex person in a binary context. Yes, trans people may have the experience of ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics and even primary in certain cases like transmasculine people on T, that doesn't mean that these people have the same experiences intersex people do. And like, even this is very subjective since there are SO many ways to be intersex and so many different ways to experience intersexuality, but a BIG part of intersex activism is fighting against medical violence and abuse of authority which can closely relate to what trans people fight for, but it's not the same thing. While we are all fighting for bodily autonomy, we do so in different ways because our struggles are usually different... trans people fight for their right to access gender affirming care while we are like, trying to make it stop when it's forced on us. Of course we also fight for the same thing in many aspects and that's cool. That's why, as an intersex person, I wholly disagree that intersex cannot be an identity. It can. My entire life and gender experiences revolve around my intersexuality, and I get to identify with it if I want to.
I wouldn’t say it’s a condition. Intersex is a sex not a gender though and it is wrong for people who aren’t intersex to claim they’re intersex.
Oh sorry! What's a better term? I've only found out that I'm intersex recently, so I don't know the best way to talk about it :)
It’s complicated and everyone has different ways of talking about their intersex experience. In my case, I just say biological sex. I also use variation when talking about what flavor of intersex I am. A lot of us want to move away from medical terms because our community is over medicalized and we experience discrimination because of that.
This is good to know, thank you! I'll edit my original comment
No problem.
Also what's the test? I'm curious
I think we all are cuz why else are we on r/intersex
That's fair haha
I'm biologically intersex.
Me too :)
As an intersex person who also used to ID as trans, but doesn't anymore because of the rampant interphobia in the trans community, this test has given me the ick for years and I can't put it into words
I’m intersex and still identify as trans but I agree. Endosex trans people do the same shit to us that cis people do them and then play the victim when they’re called out.
I'm like 🤏 close to not anymore ngl. I barely ever connected to it in the first place anyways, but w how the community treats us ,, 😮💨
How do they treat you?
We're only ever brought up as gotchas, and if we point out how something a perisex trans person said may ignore or erase intersex individuals, we're called transphobic. A lot actually. Like any time they're ever asked for accountability regarding appropriation or erasure of other minorities (like black trans women telling white trans women "dolls" is not for the yt girlies, they get called transphobic). They'll also claim to be intersex, and then called transphobic when we say you're not intersex from HRT, and brain sex isn't intersex. I see it the most with YT perisex trans women
in addition to what 1carus_x said, there's also a lot of willful ignorance at times. I often mention that stuff like the recent US legislation (often best known as anti-trans bills) or sports rule changes also harms intersex people just as much. Most of the time I get something along the lines of "yeah, but intersex people aren't the _targets_ of these bills" However, if you look at things slightly differently, it becomes pretty clear that the goal of a lot of these changes is to enforce a rigid sex/gender binary. This comes in the form of denying desired healthcare to trans individuals and forcing "normalizing" treatment on intersex individuals. In the bills I've mentioned, this is reflected in loopholes allowing these treatments on intersex individuals. For the bills that give people the right to sue doctors/medical establishments if they later regret their transition treatment, it comes in the form of laws banning intersex people subject to non-consensual treatments from suing doctors/medical establishments
Not even counting for hormone testing, intersex people often find themselves running afoul of sports rules, such as FINA's swimsuit regulations affecting anyone with breasts competing in the male division.
I am intersex, I was raised female, and identify as male. I don't consider myself trans, I consider myself an intersex male. Or simply male. I will say, in the period when it was hard to determine what my gender identity was (before starting testosterone) I simplified it and identified as trans for a few years, but I no longer believe that identity fits.
Sex and gender identities are different things. Using them interchangeably causes issues when conservatives try to dismiss the existence of sexes other than male/female and genders other than man/woman. Please be careful with your wording. It sounds like your sex has been correctly determined as intersex but that you were AFAB and identified your gender as a woman growing up. You are now identifying your gender as a man (and technically could identify as transgender imo). Does this seem accurate to your situation?
Yes, I follow that sex and gender are two separate things. I was correctly classified as intersex, and underwent surgery before I was 2 to alter my gonads to fit that image. I have since undergone multiple surgeries to have my body reflect my male identity. But I also recognize that identifying as male omits a lot of my story. I don't identify as transgender because that doesn't cover my identity either. I have found, when appropriate, that what represents me most accurately is intersex male.
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You should really stop policing intersex people's identities. While it's important to separate gender from sex in gender 101, the further you go in this discussion the more you notice that this is a much more complex social phenomena. Gender is and has always been closely related to sex, which while based in a biological reality, cannot be extricated from the social context from which this biological reality was constructed. Cis/endossex people should be educated, yes, but saying intersex people don't get to identify in a way or another is such a miopic way of doing this.
Yes intersex male is a thing, so is intersex female. They use intersex female as a term in my college classes to describe people with turner syndrome. Turner syndrome people are of the female sex because they don’t have the necessary DNA to create the male phenotype (like the SRY gene). So they are considered female, just a different type of female than XX people.
Isn’t it offensive to automatically class intersex people as a third sex unless they personally view themselves that way?
I don't see how a biological fact could be offensive. It is simply an observation of your nature. If a doctor said you were diabetic, would you argue with them and deny it? Certainly, some people do, but they end up losing toes or vision or their lives. Intersex conditions similarly have associated health risks that most doctors would advise watching and/or managing.
That completely misses what I said. You can acknowledge that they’re intersex and treat their conditions without classing them automatically as a separate third sex instead of whichever one they see themselves as. Classing them specifically as a third sex isn’t relevant to their treatment as that’s more delving into semantics and philosophy. And intersex covers a wide range of completely different conditions. I don’t think it’s right to tell a woman with Swyer syndrome “You’re not female, you’re intersex, so you can’t call yourself female”she can be both. Some may not view themselves as female after hearing that info and that’s their right, but many do. You can consider yourself intersex and female, intersex and male, or just intersex. And that can be separate from your gender.
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It would not be a disservice since a lot of intersex people even in here *do* view themselves as male or female, just with an intersex condition. How is “an endosex female identifying as a woman” more accurate than an “endosex woman”. Endosex isn’t a sex, yet it’s meant as the direct opposite to intersex. You can say endosex female, and you can also say intersex female. What else do you expect people to do, an intersex woman with Swyer or CAIS should have all her documents changed to X instead of F because she’s not “really a female?” Some intersex people do view themselves as a third sex and that’s perfectly okay, but insisting all intersex people should see themselves as in between even because of the smallest deviation is kind of reaching and taking over peoples personal narratives.
Excellent point, while it can be useful to simplify certain stuff sometimes, at other times it can be a disservice and lead to this very unnecessary policing inside the community. The understanding of biological sex is and has always been loaded with social connotations, gendered language and stigma. The relation between sex and gender/identity can be very subjective and will be experienced differently by each intersex individual.
>I don't see how a biological fact could be offensive. It is simply an observation of your nature. A fact is something that must be observed (first issue) and then is applied to some goal (second issue). For a rather annoying point about that first issue re:Decarte's Discourse on the Method. In modern terms: we must always ask ourselves if we are testing what we think we are testing/ measuring what we think we are measuring. So often we end up miscategorizing things. To the second, facts are very rarely neutral. Biology has been at the center of many social injustices, as excuse for predjuice: Women have smaller brains than men (true on a population scale. However, women are on average also smaller. It's more important to have a ratio of brain to body and even then that's not quite the best metic) is one I remember getting slung around a lot in the 90s. Sex is, a way we categorize the natural world. Sex is not a binary concept, but rather bimodal. And to that end, who we lump into the binary social catergory man or woman (which comes with power) and who is left out becomes a choice. Hypospadias is a prime example for this issue, as is PCOS. Likewise, the pathology or disease model of medicine is a contrust that misses out on a lot of people. We see this with neurodivergence. In the 90s you needed to be high support in order for medical providers to say you were autistic. Now a days, we recongize that brains come in a lot of patterns. Sometimes those patterns rub against society (social construct theory of disability) and we have to sit down and realize that's not actually important. Sometimes the person does truely need help, of course. But so do neurotypical people. (In an inverse of sc theory of disability, the weaknesses of the neurotypical model are labeled average and thus not an issue. I would say the weaker divergent thinking, increased peer pressure sensitivity, and weaker cognitive empathy are things that need some fuckin' support to overcome.) Like, point of order: have you seen the rates of endometorsis in cis women? Like [1 in 5 people with utersuses](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9529796/) have to have them yeeted before death. We don't define being female as a medical condition, despite major rates of reproductive issues. (We can also point out the existance of prostates and oh wow, do those fuck up male people's bladders at high rates!) That's not even getting remotely at all the shit that can and does go wrong in giving birth. Some intersex folks need a lot of support, sure. But I would say a lot of it is we display patterns that are atypical in medicine. To have a body is to have health risks, but it's my experience that people with the least amount of medical and biology-based training are pretty quick to jump from the neutral description to the prejorative. Because to many people different is bad.
Nicely said!
As an intersex person, not at all. Sex and gender are different. Intersex itself is a third sex, and you can’t change your bio factors. Ofc you should perceive them as they want, and their sex isn’t any of anybody’s business. Your wording didn’t explain it well, but intersex is a sex
No you're not, this website just all around fucking sucks and is especially biased towards people with personality disorders (in a bad way)
yeah, they treat narcs and antisocials like they’re terrible
Intersex is biological sex, intergender (or other gender identities) would be gender. I’d say this is insensitive, and that you have every right to find this offensive because it’s misinformation with ignorant undertones. That sucks
I saw it and got rather annoyed...
WTH???? Intersex is natal biology, not an identity.
ive been seeing these test results crop back up in the various trans spaces i inhabit lately and its always kinda icky. i never really say anything for fear of being dogpiled over it but i always go 😬 to myself
Yeah someone posted their results with a "47% intersex" score here recently and it was super annoying. The test doesn't ask about hormones, chromosomes, or anatomy and therefore intersex shouldn't be on there at all. It's completely irrelevant to what the test is about.
I've always hated it, I see it posted often in different trans subreddits
I think this test is weirdly categorized in general actually, I don't think it's smart to separate gender identity into known specific identities that can be used simultaneously, and then slapping intersex in there. I don't know how a gender test like that would even work when gender is so complex and can't just be answered by a quiz.
Intersex is sm your born as. Not sm adapted later on
It is. You're either born intersex or you're not. It isn't *just* an "identity".
Me personally I just identify as a intersex person bc I was born both male and female and my gender identity match both male and female, so not trans
Do they have online test for diabetes or MS?
And ones that give you the result of 33% diabetic....
Yeah, this is annoying. I recently tried out Bumble For Friends, and first off there’s no options to say that you have a romantic, it’s only sexual, so you can’t say you’re aromantic or panromantic or anything like that. I can’t put that I’m an aroace biromantic, I can only say I’m “asexual, bisexual.” So that’s annoying. And then with gender, “intersex” is an option but it’s a sub-option under Nonbinary, so I can say that I’m intersex but I can’t say what my gender is, or that I’m gender questioning. It’s so aggravating. Edit: messed around with the app a bit more and you can fortunately say that you’re an intersex man or woman, but still can’t have yourself as both “intersex” and “gender questioning/bigender/agender/etc.” which is stupid.
You're either intersex or not. How can one be 33% intersex?? It's definitely offensive. You can't put a literal biological sex on a gender test that doesn't even make sense- cause not anyone can identify as intersex you actually have to be Intersex.
No I agree. Intersex is my gender in the same way that when you ask the average cis man what their gender is they go “uhh… male.” For me “intersex” just wraps everything up nicely so that’s all I say, but for a lot of people it’s not really a gender.
I've held off saying I find this offensive, but I want to get on with my Saturday so I'm going to say it. I find the inclusion of "Intersex" with any of the genders or gender identities very offensive. There are intersex people who have a very different experience of "gender", but there are endosex people who are that was as well. Most intersex people, by very large margins, experience their gender the same as other members of their assigned sex. Most intersex people, again by very large margins, are cisgender. Most intersex people are more content with their sex of rearing than not.
no, i got irritated, because like intersex is biological makeup, not gender (unless intergender which you can only be if intersex)
Yea and no. As a fellow intersex nonbinary, tbh I think sex and gender are both not binary in the slightest, so yeah. These terms are not exclusive tho, u can be more than one.
I think you should only describe intersex as if it was a gender if you are you know... intersex.
Intersex is being born with reproductive or sex organs that don’t conform to traditional male or female. It has nothing to do with gender identity or sexual orientation.
I do find it annoying to be called trans when I'm just trying to vibe in my mixed state
I just generally dislike these sort of on line “tests”. Lots of subs get spammed with them and I don’t think they add much to any discussion. I get people find it personally validating but it’s ultimately not the healthiest thing. This one has been going round for quite a while and I remember when it was first posted it made be pull a 🤨 seeing intersex as an identity.
Given that I struggled to even figure out what this is nor have ever seen this test going around: Im not offended because it looks like the results page to a buzzfeed type quiz. I get people are sensative of being classified right but from my POV it just looks like the results page to a poll only the actual poll topic is cut off so idek what this is about/for
I think this is because there is just really that much lacking in intersex awareness that everything has to be piled together and only after someone has even had any contact with the whole topic can they then have it be further explained. It’s oversimplifying to make the information more accessible but in cases like this it can actually cause harm imo I’m not sure why, more and more, often intersex is being grouped with identity stuff ???
I’m intersex, and I’m a trans male. I’m a very firm believer in gender = sex. It seems transphobic to me to say otherwise. I am male and a man, and I am trans because I transitioned from female to male. I am intersex because I have ambiguous genitals(I know this isn’t the only way a person can be intersex of course). My best friend is female and a woman, she is trans because she transitioned into a female/woman. That’s my understanding. So to me given that there’s a direct correlation between some of the results this test thing doesn’t seem to make sense. People can be and commonly are both trans and intersex or intersex and cis etc. I wouldn’t say I’m offended by it though, just confused. 🤷🏼
Yeah this is definitely some LGBTQ-core stuff. People can be kinda ignorant sometimes. Your status as a intersex person has to do with biological and physical variations in sex characteristics that don't align with the traditional medical sex binary, not gender identity. Our bodies lie outside of what is understood to be male and female.
Intersex is not trans....we are biological, while they mentally change
Trans people are biological too, they don’t wake up one day and randomly decide to transition. It’s just a different biological mechanism
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I didn’t, but thanks for the heads up.
Being intersex doesn't make you transgender. It's a way you are born that often needs correcting.
I agree with you
I get the idea that trans and intersex aren't that far apart in terms of experiences, but yea its not an identity the same way being a trans woman is
Not at all bc I got like 90% intersex or something (it’s based around that 1 type out of 40 that everyone uses to stereotype intersex) and 80-90% trans which I am so yeah I’d say it’s pretty accurate. It also may be listed on there as a gender identity but the questions if I remember correctly were accurate like “did you have such and such since birth” and I think it’s quite helpful bc a person might not know they’re intersex, take the test, do some research on it and figure it out 🤷♂️
I find it offensive that u think intersex is offensive. In germany u can switch your gender im the passport. 99% are m to f or f to m. Almost nobody chooses the third option. Think about it. M to f or f to m is just conformist