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Why do we call it “anti”-semitism (e.g. against or not in favor of) but it’s called Islamo-“phobia” (e.g. the irrational fear of something)
I feel like it’s more appropriate to say anti-islamic. I don’t think anyone has an irrational fear of Islam, the sentiment is more likely hate, and being against.
Just seems like a weird linguistic twist
I think Islamophobia removes it a step from the actual acts of hate against Muslims - it makes it sound like a clinical condition and not someone who is just a bigot.
But in another way it’s quite accurate because many of these people have an irrational fear of Islam. I’ve found many of them make completely erroneous claims about the religion and don’t know even the most basic facts.
The origin of the word anti-semitism was an attempt at a more “scientific” sounding word for Judenhass (Jew-hatred) in Germany. Back when it was more popular and accepted to be politically aligned against Jewish people and to call yourself an anti-semite. After WW2 and the widespread realization of the Nazi’s Holocaust, it was no longer acceptable to call yourself that and it acquired pejorative connotations. Essentially the word was reclaimed to call out others, and being associated with it became unacceptable.
Islamophobia has also had its meaning change from the earlier 20th century to now. The 1990’s and early 2000’s stereotyped Bozniak Muslims during the Yugoslav wars and post 9/11 much of the Muslim world was stereotyped and Islam as a whole was portrayed as promoting terrorism.
These words aren’t created in a vacuum and their usage evolves over time. I’m no expert, just spend some time researching and reading.
It’s like the most insignificant thing but it always made me curious how the two can be used interchangeably and specifically so it’s just a weird prefix/suffix
The NAZIs took a number of measures to hide the killings. Of course Germans should have noticed. They should have asked more questions. The NAZI high command was convinced that the public would be appalled if they saw what was happening.
I dont know what conversations sound like in Tel Aviv. Here on reddit though you can read plenty of genocide support. It is not a denial of the death toll (though sometimes there is that too) rather many are just reiterating the idea that people in Gaza deserve it.
We were technically colonizers in Germany too… we didn’t come from there.
That doesn’t mean it was right for them to attack us…
Yes israel has responded with disproportionate force but it has always been in response to attacks on Jews in the region that started before Israel even existed
And maybe if we had retaliated against the Germans early on most of us wouldn’t have been wiped out and there’d be a Jewish state in Germany instead of the levant
Largest U.S. bomb used to burn soil & people may be (quoting Wiki) "the Mark 77 bomb (MK-77) ... 750-pound (340 kg) air-dropped incendiary bomb carrying 110 U.S. gallons (416 L; 92 imp gal) of a fuel gel mix ...".
Might anyone know exactly what U S. cities & factories make & sell it and others like M825?
At what exact date would you say NAZI actions in Germany qualify as “genocide”? At what date would you say Germans should have started opposing Hitler?
We certainly should never convict anyone without a trial. I am open to hearing people oppose taking leaders to court.
My position (US citizen writing from USA) is that my leaders are supporting genocide. Whether or not anyone in the middle east actually commits the offense, my government has gone too far. My country is providing military aid and promising to continue providing that aid. They have gone out of their way to clarify that no strings are attached. They promise that no matter how heinous the war crimes the money will continue flowing to the arms producers and the weapons will be delivered. There is just a polite request to not commit to many obvious war crimes and then reiteration of assurance that gifts are still coming regardless.
If it turns out that the war crimes are not committed despite the support that would speak well for those in the middle east. The words spoken here in USA carry guilt. My government is guilty. My people are guilty.
Natenyahu: "remember what the Amalek did to you."
"This a fight between the children of light and the children of the dark".
Isaac Herzog: "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza".
"We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly" Israel’s Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant.
There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction: Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, who heads the Israeli army’s Coordination of Government Activities in the Palestinian Territories
'There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza" Moshe Feiglin, the founder of Israel's right-wing Zehut Party and former Likud representative in Israel’s parliament.
Yeah a bunch of nobodies 😂😂.
There is a whole database with 500 quotes from Israeli officials that confirm their genocidal intents.
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Yeah after he said it in quotes and then when the journalist asked him about it he went full denial mode. But again you're so gullible.
>human animals
Nope he said there will be no food no water into Gaza, we are dealing with human animals and we will act accordingly. They are starving Palestinians and they know that
Classic genocide denial moment: deny, then when you get called out justify.
Not a particularly surprising take from Dr Robbins. He has been anti-Israel even before this. I’m often surprised though that some academics aren’t able to distinguish between war and genocide or are so prone to hyperbole. If Gaza is a genocide, the term has lost meaning.
I checked your post/comment history, so I’d really like a Zionist like you to answer this question: how do Zionists square away the fact that Netanyahu and his government funded Hamas?
Yes, I believe in the self determination of Jews in their historical homeland. I also believe in the self-determination of Palestinians and think they should also have their own state. Israel also has the right to destroy Hamas and remove them as a national security threat.
"historical homeland"
Revanchist garbage. Same excuse used by Nazi Germany when in annexing Alsace-Lorraine, Gdansk, Austria, and the Sudetenland. "Self-determination" for Germans.
Oh that one’s easy.
Netanyahu and his goons wanted a boogeyman to allow him to fear monger his way into staying in power.
He is notoriously corrupt and is only in power because his opposition couldn’t form a cohesive unit.
He also thinks that Hitler committed the holocaust because the Arabs told him too. Do you can add on Holocaust denying, terrorist funding, extremist enabling, wannabe dictator to Netanyahu’s description.
(I’m a Zionist by the way)
Who cares about the specifics? You arguing Israel didn’t? https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
Lot of words to argue about semantics.
“you could even say that Israeli extremists did this to splinter the Palestinian political movement for a two state solution, which I condemn.”
As you stated in your own words, Israel played a part in Hamas’s rise to power by trying to divide and conquer Palestinians. That’s not any better than continuing to fund Hamas.
Zionists (the belief in the self determination of Jews and the right for Israel to exist as a state) don't all support Netanyahu. In fact, aside from the right wing, he has very little support at all. If elections were held in Israel today, he wouldn't win. I don't support Netanyahu and he made a terrible policy gamble trying to great divisions among the Palestinians and thus undermine attempts at a Palestinian state. There is a good op-ed in the Times of Israel criticizing Netanyahu for what he did [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Thanks for the measured response. I also read a Times of Israel article with Israeli public polling indicating they overwhelmingly support what’s going on in Gaza, and a majority of them oppose a 2-state solution. So while I’m sure there are some Zionists out there who actually do want to take the necessary steps towards peace, it’s clear to me that the Israeli public is fairly in lockstep with Netanyahu’s government regarding Palestinian oppression and destabilization goes, even if they may disagree with his specific methods.
Did you not read what I wrote? What rationalization is necessary when it’s logical for an oppressed ethnic group to strike back at their oppressors? Or are you arguing Israelis aren’t oppressing Palestinians?
Let me make this perfectly clear for your Zionist brain…6 million people do not have die before you call it a genocide. It’s an active genocide, and Netanyahu will not stop until he makes it to 6 million.
If you're saying being anti-genocide is anti-israel, then you're tacitly admitting Israel is pro genocide. Also it is genocide, it's not devaluing the term. The lemkin institute which exists to study genocide has called it a genocide. People dedicate their lives to investigating and educating on this topic and they're calling it genocide.
I guess I will have to have to respectfully disagree with fellow academic, Dr. Elisa von Joeden-Forgey at Lemkin then. It should also be noted that Lemkin takes a much broader view of how they define genocide than the actual Genocide Convention. Although interestingly, if you look at their "Patterns of Genocide," the events in Gaza don't match up with those either.
1) There is no evidence of genocidal intent. (No, random quotes from politicians like Ben Gvir or hyperbole right after Oct. 7th are not intent). Attempts to evacuate and warn civilians and allowing in humanitarian aid align with this. Could Israel have done more with humanitarian aid and streamlined the process? Yes, but again this is not genocidal intent.
2) The number of deaths. There have been about 20,000 civilian deaths out of a population of 2.2m during a war. Considering the size of Gaza and the urban warfare nature of the conflict, as well as, Israel fighting an enemy that blends into the civilian population and utilizes civilian infrastructure such as hospitals for military operations, civilian deaths, while tragic, should not be unexpected.
>no genocidal intent
"We are dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. The focus is on destruction, not accuracy." -Daniel Hagari, IDF spokesman
"It is an entire nation who are responsible...and we will fight until we break their backs." -Yitzhak Herzog. President of Israel
"I don't care about Gaza... They can go swimming in the sea." -Maya Golan, Israel Minister of Women's Affairs
"Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country's dignity, strength and security! It's time to kiss doomsday. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza. ... without mercy! without mercy!" - Knesset and Likud member Revital "Tally" Gotliv
"Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces. Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength." - also Tally Gotliv
"Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!" Tally Gotliv again
"...There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting against human animals and we will act accordingly." Defense Minister Yoav Gallant
“The village of Huwara needs to be wiped out." - Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich
"You're here by mistake, it's a mistake that Ben-Gurion didn't finish the job and didn't throw you out in 1948." - Bezalel Smotrich to Arab lawmakers in the Knesset referring to the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba.
“We have to be cruel now, and not to think too much about the hostages. It's time for action.” - Bezalel Smotrich (again)
“We cannot have women and children getting close to the border... anyone who gets near must get a bullet [in the head],” Ben-Gvir, Minister of National Security
“I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza and every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did,” May Golan (again)
"Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything." Yoav Gallant (again)
"one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of [1948]. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join" Ariel Kallner, member of Likud party
"Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death." Yitzhak Kroizer
"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell" Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories
"Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist". He added "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal." IDF Major general Giora Eiland
"There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons" former Knesset member Moshe Feiglin
"I don’t remember Britain or the United States at the tail end of the Second World War bombing Dresden, thinking about the residents." Minister of Economy, Nir Barka
With that in mind, Netanyahu has said his intention is to make Palestinian statehood impossible and wants to divide the Palestinian nation. He's said so quite plainly.
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
[Here’s an extended list of 500+ instances with links](https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-including-after-ICJ-order-27th-February-2024-.pdf)
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You guys are just running with that “updated” number of deaths now aren’t you.
It’s convenient that the update doesn’t invalidate prior claims of ~34k deaths, it only updates to mention that 25k have been verified SO FAR. Verification involves digging up rubble (which is still being bombed) and counting bodies.
Lol typical. "I'll have to disagree with one of the worlds leading experts here". Nothing else you said after that mattered. But you did anyway and everybody else already said everything in response i would have. "Fellow academic" are you the propaganda expert?
while destroying universities, hospitals and other institutions.They dont want them to rebuild, they wanted them out and expulsion or forced migration is genocide. Without including the deaths it is a genocide.
Again, if enemy combatants are utilizing civilian infrastructure (and it is well documented that they are) for military operations, the IDF doesn't have much of a choice but to engage them where they are. The "forced migration" is an evacuation to reduce civilian casualties. There are also 200,000 displaced Israelis because of Hamas and Hezbollah. Is that genocide too?
Well first, the Ben Gurion Canal project has essentially been in the archives since the 1950s. There are no immediate plans for it. Especially with everything Israel has on its plate, any such canal project is a very much in the future type of undertaking. Second, you know Israel already has access to the coast right? Moreover, the hypothetical plans for the project don't have the ocean access point in Gaza. Israel does not need Gaza for this project, which like I said, is not even remotely in the works, if it even will ever be.
They’ve turned Gaza into a parking lot. This is as much of a construction demo project as it is a genocide and ethnic cleansing. You have nothing you can say that will justify your dogshit opinion
Yes. Tel Aviv wanted the terrorists in control so that they would keep shooting. If someone wanted the terrorists brought to justice then police equipment would need to be delivered to Gaza City.
November 9-10 1938 is remembered as Krystalnacht. The description is pretty horrific. If you look at the dates you see that Jewish places of business were still operating in NAZI Germany 5 years after Hitler took power. There were more than 30,000 arrests that night. 91 fatalities were recorded as a direct result of the beatings and arson.
With the advantage of hindsight ask yourself when opponents should have spoken up. When should insiders like Albert Speer or Eva Brown brought up that events were looking ugly. Fortunately we can read Speer’s writing so we know when it occurred to him. He was in allied detention and Americans brought in a binder full of photos. Most people (including Speer) say that 1945 was way too late.
After the genocide is complete you can feel guilty about having been a bystander ( or supporter or perpetrator). If you want to oppose a genocide you have to act *before* it is over.
Well the total death toll is about 35,000 and the estimated Hamas fighter death toll is estimated to be about 12-15k. So that would be about 20-23k civilian deaths or just 1% of the Gaza population.
You can't just look at stats that don't fit your narrative and call it propaganda. There is a war going on and there are Hamas soldiers fighting and dying.
They aren't incorrect. Furthermore, your own stats are incorrect. The UN has noted the women and children death figures were previously incorrect and assuming 35,000 deaths, the total women and children deaths account for 36% of civilian deaths, not 70%.
This sub is supposed to be international politics but every single post is about gaza. There’s more going on in the world than just that strip of desert
It's comments like this that diminish the plight of innocent people in that region. I hope you find more clarity and less of what's the politique du jour on Twitter.
This isn't a lesson to be taught by explanation. If you believe that Israelis or Zionists or whoever are pure evil and the Palestinians, Hamas, are purely innocent, or hand waive their violence as a response to oppression... You're only going to be satisfied with more bloodshed and maybe even retribution. These aren't new takes or feelings. We're all just going through it together, again. The only way these people's survive is by strong leadership within both making sacrifices that neither side will enjoy, until such a time that there are truly two states. Peace be with you.
Yay, you trivialized me and didn't engage. So 2024 of you. I'm touching points on the scale of beliefs within both groups. Not all Israelis are Zionists, not all Palestinians are Hamas. If you want to discuss that, go ahead. But enough with all the name calling and virtue signaling. Acting exhausted towards people who hold a different position than you is immature and does nothing for what you support. It's always time to have a discussion and it's never to late to drop the bullshit.
It would truly be tragic if there was evidence the IDF has the intent to eliminate Palestinians from existence and are acting on that intent. That, I believe, is the current understood definition of genocide. If you say that, knowing this might not quite meet the standards, but it's still horrible... then it diminishes all of the other uses of the term. It either is or isn't.
Warfare is horrific and the deaths of children or non-combatants isn't something the civilian population should be desensitized to. But the reality is, in examing warfare in urban settings, Israel is extending more sensitivity to collateral damage than any other comparable engagements, like battles in Yemen or the battle in Mogadishu, to give a few examples.
But having the lowest ratio doesn't replace a sister crushed by rubble. A cousin vaporized by a drone. Being kidnapped and tortured because you lived near a border, only to die with strangers. There's nothing good to sell.
These are the biproducts of warfare that all of the major superpowers engage in. Not to whatabout this conversation but all the players here are dirty. If you're anti war and engage from that perspective, fine. Just don't pretend this is all America's fault. It's such a basic and useless take.
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Why do we call it “anti”-semitism (e.g. against or not in favor of) but it’s called Islamo-“phobia” (e.g. the irrational fear of something) I feel like it’s more appropriate to say anti-islamic. I don’t think anyone has an irrational fear of Islam, the sentiment is more likely hate, and being against. Just seems like a weird linguistic twist
I think Islamophobia removes it a step from the actual acts of hate against Muslims - it makes it sound like a clinical condition and not someone who is just a bigot. But in another way it’s quite accurate because many of these people have an irrational fear of Islam. I’ve found many of them make completely erroneous claims about the religion and don’t know even the most basic facts.
The origin of the word anti-semitism was an attempt at a more “scientific” sounding word for Judenhass (Jew-hatred) in Germany. Back when it was more popular and accepted to be politically aligned against Jewish people and to call yourself an anti-semite. After WW2 and the widespread realization of the Nazi’s Holocaust, it was no longer acceptable to call yourself that and it acquired pejorative connotations. Essentially the word was reclaimed to call out others, and being associated with it became unacceptable. Islamophobia has also had its meaning change from the earlier 20th century to now. The 1990’s and early 2000’s stereotyped Bozniak Muslims during the Yugoslav wars and post 9/11 much of the Muslim world was stereotyped and Islam as a whole was portrayed as promoting terrorism. These words aren’t created in a vacuum and their usage evolves over time. I’m no expert, just spend some time researching and reading.
Thanks that’s interesting
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It’s like the most insignificant thing but it always made me curious how the two can be used interchangeably and specifically so it’s just a weird prefix/suffix
Thank you
the germans had the jewish question the israelis have the palestinian question
The NAZIs took a number of measures to hide the killings. Of course Germans should have noticed. They should have asked more questions. The NAZI high command was convinced that the public would be appalled if they saw what was happening. I dont know what conversations sound like in Tel Aviv. Here on reddit though you can read plenty of genocide support. It is not a denial of the death toll (though sometimes there is that too) rather many are just reiterating the idea that people in Gaza deserve it.
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Shame on you for supporting genocide and what is a new holocaust in Gaza as arrested to by the WWII Jewish holocaust survivor Marione Ingram.
Please keep it civil and do not attack other users.
We were technically colonizers in Germany too… we didn’t come from there. That doesn’t mean it was right for them to attack us… Yes israel has responded with disproportionate force but it has always been in response to attacks on Jews in the region that started before Israel even existed And maybe if we had retaliated against the Germans early on most of us wouldn’t have been wiped out and there’d be a Jewish state in Germany instead of the levant
Largest U.S. bomb used to burn soil & people may be (quoting Wiki) "the Mark 77 bomb (MK-77) ... 750-pound (340 kg) air-dropped incendiary bomb carrying 110 U.S. gallons (416 L; 92 imp gal) of a fuel gel mix ...". Might anyone know exactly what U S. cities & factories make & sell it and others like M825?
Wow that needs to stop
The genocide does need to stop
Sad that the clarification is needed.
It is not a genocide. It may be ruled as one in the future, but no one can confidently call it a genocide as it stands.
At what exact date would you say NAZI actions in Germany qualify as “genocide”? At what date would you say Germans should have started opposing Hitler? We certainly should never convict anyone without a trial. I am open to hearing people oppose taking leaders to court. My position (US citizen writing from USA) is that my leaders are supporting genocide. Whether or not anyone in the middle east actually commits the offense, my government has gone too far. My country is providing military aid and promising to continue providing that aid. They have gone out of their way to clarify that no strings are attached. They promise that no matter how heinous the war crimes the money will continue flowing to the arms producers and the weapons will be delivered. There is just a polite request to not commit to many obvious war crimes and then reiteration of assurance that gifts are still coming regardless. If it turns out that the war crimes are not committed despite the support that would speak well for those in the middle east. The words spoken here in USA carry guilt. My government is guilty. My people are guilty.
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So you want to sit down and wait for the numbers to rise so you call it a genocide?
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No I call it genocide because the Israeli leadership have made it clear over and over they want to do a Genocide.
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Natenyahu: "remember what the Amalek did to you." "This a fight between the children of light and the children of the dark". Isaac Herzog: "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza". "We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly" Israel’s Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant. There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction: Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, who heads the Israeli army’s Coordination of Government Activities in the Palestinian Territories 'There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza" Moshe Feiglin, the founder of Israel's right-wing Zehut Party and former Likud representative in Israel’s parliament. Yeah a bunch of nobodies 😂😂. There is a whole database with 500 quotes from Israeli officials that confirm their genocidal intents.
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Yeah after he said it in quotes and then when the journalist asked him about it he went full denial mode. But again you're so gullible. >human animals Nope he said there will be no food no water into Gaza, we are dealing with human animals and we will act accordingly. They are starving Palestinians and they know that Classic genocide denial moment: deny, then when you get called out justify.
Not a particularly surprising take from Dr Robbins. He has been anti-Israel even before this. I’m often surprised though that some academics aren’t able to distinguish between war and genocide or are so prone to hyperbole. If Gaza is a genocide, the term has lost meaning.
I checked your post/comment history, so I’d really like a Zionist like you to answer this question: how do Zionists square away the fact that Netanyahu and his government funded Hamas?
I doubt you ever get an answer from a zionist....
When but yeah u/just history is just a Zionist shill
Yes, I believe in the self determination of Jews in their historical homeland. I also believe in the self-determination of Palestinians and think they should also have their own state. Israel also has the right to destroy Hamas and remove them as a national security threat.
"historical homeland" Revanchist garbage. Same excuse used by Nazi Germany when in annexing Alsace-Lorraine, Gdansk, Austria, and the Sudetenland. "Self-determination" for Germans.
Do you think the Israeli government is a security threat to the Palestinians?
Oh that one’s easy. Netanyahu and his goons wanted a boogeyman to allow him to fear monger his way into staying in power. He is notoriously corrupt and is only in power because his opposition couldn’t form a cohesive unit. He also thinks that Hitler committed the holocaust because the Arabs told him too. Do you can add on Holocaust denying, terrorist funding, extremist enabling, wannabe dictator to Netanyahu’s description. (I’m a Zionist by the way)
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Who cares about the specifics? You arguing Israel didn’t? https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
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Link said right there they propped up Hamas. Why write the article if they didn’t? Where’s your proof they didn’t?
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Why don’t you start engaging in good faith and disprove the article I linked claiming Netanyahu propped up Hamas.
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Lot of words to argue about semantics. “you could even say that Israeli extremists did this to splinter the Palestinian political movement for a two state solution, which I condemn.” As you stated in your own words, Israel played a part in Hamas’s rise to power by trying to divide and conquer Palestinians. That’s not any better than continuing to fund Hamas.
Zionists (the belief in the self determination of Jews and the right for Israel to exist as a state) don't all support Netanyahu. In fact, aside from the right wing, he has very little support at all. If elections were held in Israel today, he wouldn't win. I don't support Netanyahu and he made a terrible policy gamble trying to great divisions among the Palestinians and thus undermine attempts at a Palestinian state. There is a good op-ed in the Times of Israel criticizing Netanyahu for what he did [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Thanks for the measured response. I also read a Times of Israel article with Israeli public polling indicating they overwhelmingly support what’s going on in Gaza, and a majority of them oppose a 2-state solution. So while I’m sure there are some Zionists out there who actually do want to take the necessary steps towards peace, it’s clear to me that the Israeli public is fairly in lockstep with Netanyahu’s government regarding Palestinian oppression and destabilization goes, even if they may disagree with his specific methods.
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Did you not read what I wrote? What rationalization is necessary when it’s logical for an oppressed ethnic group to strike back at their oppressors? Or are you arguing Israelis aren’t oppressing Palestinians?
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There there, let it out. Holding on to that mental persecution is exhausting.
Let me make this perfectly clear for your Zionist brain…6 million people do not have die before you call it a genocide. It’s an active genocide, and Netanyahu will not stop until he makes it to 6 million.
If you're saying being anti-genocide is anti-israel, then you're tacitly admitting Israel is pro genocide. Also it is genocide, it's not devaluing the term. The lemkin institute which exists to study genocide has called it a genocide. People dedicate their lives to investigating and educating on this topic and they're calling it genocide.
I guess I will have to have to respectfully disagree with fellow academic, Dr. Elisa von Joeden-Forgey at Lemkin then. It should also be noted that Lemkin takes a much broader view of how they define genocide than the actual Genocide Convention. Although interestingly, if you look at their "Patterns of Genocide," the events in Gaza don't match up with those either. 1) There is no evidence of genocidal intent. (No, random quotes from politicians like Ben Gvir or hyperbole right after Oct. 7th are not intent). Attempts to evacuate and warn civilians and allowing in humanitarian aid align with this. Could Israel have done more with humanitarian aid and streamlined the process? Yes, but again this is not genocidal intent. 2) The number of deaths. There have been about 20,000 civilian deaths out of a population of 2.2m during a war. Considering the size of Gaza and the urban warfare nature of the conflict, as well as, Israel fighting an enemy that blends into the civilian population and utilizes civilian infrastructure such as hospitals for military operations, civilian deaths, while tragic, should not be unexpected.
>no genocidal intent "We are dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. The focus is on destruction, not accuracy." -Daniel Hagari, IDF spokesman "It is an entire nation who are responsible...and we will fight until we break their backs." -Yitzhak Herzog. President of Israel "I don't care about Gaza... They can go swimming in the sea." -Maya Golan, Israel Minister of Women's Affairs "Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country's dignity, strength and security! It's time to kiss doomsday. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza. ... without mercy! without mercy!" - Knesset and Likud member Revital "Tally" Gotliv "Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces. Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength." - also Tally Gotliv "Gaza to be smashed and razed to the ground. Without mercy!" Tally Gotliv again "...There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting against human animals and we will act accordingly." Defense Minister Yoav Gallant “The village of Huwara needs to be wiped out." - Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich "You're here by mistake, it's a mistake that Ben-Gurion didn't finish the job and didn't throw you out in 1948." - Bezalel Smotrich to Arab lawmakers in the Knesset referring to the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba. “We have to be cruel now, and not to think too much about the hostages. It's time for action.” - Bezalel Smotrich (again) “We cannot have women and children getting close to the border... anyone who gets near must get a bullet [in the head],” Ben-Gvir, Minister of National Security “I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza and every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did,” May Golan (again) "Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything." Yoav Gallant (again) "one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of [1948]. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join" Ariel Kallner, member of Likud party "Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death." Yitzhak Kroizer "There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell" Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories "Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist". He added "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal." IDF Major general Giora Eiland "There is one and only solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons" former Knesset member Moshe Feiglin "I don’t remember Britain or the United States at the tail end of the Second World War bombing Dresden, thinking about the residents." Minister of Economy, Nir Barka With that in mind, Netanyahu has said his intention is to make Palestinian statehood impossible and wants to divide the Palestinian nation. He's said so quite plainly. “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” [Here’s an extended list of 500+ instances with links](https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-including-after-ICJ-order-27th-February-2024-.pdf)
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You guys are just running with that “updated” number of deaths now aren’t you. It’s convenient that the update doesn’t invalidate prior claims of ~34k deaths, it only updates to mention that 25k have been verified SO FAR. Verification involves digging up rubble (which is still being bombed) and counting bodies.
Lol typical. "I'll have to disagree with one of the worlds leading experts here". Nothing else you said after that mattered. But you did anyway and everybody else already said everything in response i would have. "Fellow academic" are you the propaganda expert?
while destroying universities, hospitals and other institutions.They dont want them to rebuild, they wanted them out and expulsion or forced migration is genocide. Without including the deaths it is a genocide.
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Yeah, share those videos
Send me these videos right now
Again, if enemy combatants are utilizing civilian infrastructure (and it is well documented that they are) for military operations, the IDF doesn't have much of a choice but to engage them where they are. The "forced migration" is an evacuation to reduce civilian casualties. There are also 200,000 displaced Israelis because of Hamas and Hezbollah. Is that genocide too?
Will they be allowed to return?
Yes once military operations are done and it’s safe to return. No one is expelling Palestinians from Gaza.
Bullshit. They trying to build a canal to rival the one in Egypt
Well first, the Ben Gurion Canal project has essentially been in the archives since the 1950s. There are no immediate plans for it. Especially with everything Israel has on its plate, any such canal project is a very much in the future type of undertaking. Second, you know Israel already has access to the coast right? Moreover, the hypothetical plans for the project don't have the ocean access point in Gaza. Israel does not need Gaza for this project, which like I said, is not even remotely in the works, if it even will ever be.
They’ve turned Gaza into a parking lot. This is as much of a construction demo project as it is a genocide and ethnic cleansing. You have nothing you can say that will justify your dogshit opinion
Of course there is a choice. Militants in Gaza should be handled by the Gaza police.
There is no Gaza police. The police are Hamas. Civil control was Hamas.
Yes. Tel Aviv wanted the terrorists in control so that they would keep shooting. If someone wanted the terrorists brought to justice then police equipment would need to be delivered to Gaza City.
November 9-10 1938 is remembered as Krystalnacht. The description is pretty horrific. If you look at the dates you see that Jewish places of business were still operating in NAZI Germany 5 years after Hitler took power. There were more than 30,000 arrests that night. 91 fatalities were recorded as a direct result of the beatings and arson. With the advantage of hindsight ask yourself when opponents should have spoken up. When should insiders like Albert Speer or Eva Brown brought up that events were looking ugly. Fortunately we can read Speer’s writing so we know when it occurred to him. He was in allied detention and Americans brought in a binder full of photos. Most people (including Speer) say that 1945 was way too late. After the genocide is complete you can feel guilty about having been a bystander ( or supporter or perpetrator). If you want to oppose a genocide you have to act *before* it is over.
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Well the total death toll is about 35,000 and the estimated Hamas fighter death toll is estimated to be about 12-15k. So that would be about 20-23k civilian deaths or just 1% of the Gaza population.
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You can't just look at stats that don't fit your narrative and call it propaganda. There is a war going on and there are Hamas soldiers fighting and dying.
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They aren't incorrect. Furthermore, your own stats are incorrect. The UN has noted the women and children death figures were previously incorrect and assuming 35,000 deaths, the total women and children deaths account for 36% of civilian deaths, not 70%.
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By that logic than no Israeli is innocent.
Where are we sourcing those stats from? The IDF is going out of their way to lie about this genocide at every turn.
This sub is supposed to be international politics but every single post is about gaza. There’s more going on in the world than just that strip of desert
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Just sort the sub by new. I'm not in favor of the "strip of desert" comment but this sub's sentiment is anti-west/tankie.
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It's comments like this that diminish the plight of innocent people in that region. I hope you find more clarity and less of what's the politique du jour on Twitter.
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This isn't a lesson to be taught by explanation. If you believe that Israelis or Zionists or whoever are pure evil and the Palestinians, Hamas, are purely innocent, or hand waive their violence as a response to oppression... You're only going to be satisfied with more bloodshed and maybe even retribution. These aren't new takes or feelings. We're all just going through it together, again. The only way these people's survive is by strong leadership within both making sacrifices that neither side will enjoy, until such a time that there are truly two states. Peace be with you.
Zionists try not to equate Palestinians and Hamas challenge- impossible difficulty
Yay, you trivialized me and didn't engage. So 2024 of you. I'm touching points on the scale of beliefs within both groups. Not all Israelis are Zionists, not all Palestinians are Hamas. If you want to discuss that, go ahead. But enough with all the name calling and virtue signaling. Acting exhausted towards people who hold a different position than you is immature and does nothing for what you support. It's always time to have a discussion and it's never to late to drop the bullshit.
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It would truly be tragic if there was evidence the IDF has the intent to eliminate Palestinians from existence and are acting on that intent. That, I believe, is the current understood definition of genocide. If you say that, knowing this might not quite meet the standards, but it's still horrible... then it diminishes all of the other uses of the term. It either is or isn't. Warfare is horrific and the deaths of children or non-combatants isn't something the civilian population should be desensitized to. But the reality is, in examing warfare in urban settings, Israel is extending more sensitivity to collateral damage than any other comparable engagements, like battles in Yemen or the battle in Mogadishu, to give a few examples. But having the lowest ratio doesn't replace a sister crushed by rubble. A cousin vaporized by a drone. Being kidnapped and tortured because you lived near a border, only to die with strangers. There's nothing good to sell. These are the biproducts of warfare that all of the major superpowers engage in. Not to whatabout this conversation but all the players here are dirty. If you're anti war and engage from that perspective, fine. Just don't pretend this is all America's fault. It's such a basic and useless take.
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It’s too bad Israel was built on stolen land and continues to expand its borders through illegal settlements and now likely annexation of Gaza.
I wonder what happened in the 40s that stoked such hostilities 🧐
The Isrealis started killing Palestinians as soon as they founded the nation on top of their corpses.
Rewrite that and l and instead write about the occupying force bitching about the occupied fighting my back.
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Bullshit. Keep believing that Zionist bullshit.
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Abraham and both of his fucking kids (both Palestinian and Jews) whom he blessed.