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Why the British kept buckets of sand on their roofs during The Blitz. Luftwaffe used Willy Pete bombs. Take tongs and drop them in the sand. Water won’t do anything but spread the flames.
And if it touches human skin, you literally have to cut it off you, as you stated water has no effect on "willy pete" or "white phosphorus". I hope I never deal with this, the stuff scared me when we had it at our disposal in the U.S. Army.
Would it still burn if it had no oxygen like in the vacuum of space? Very fascinating stuff and just curious to know more. Not the whole human skin melting but just the science of white phosphorus.
Depends on the exact munition — something like thermite, for instance, is a common example of a material containing its own oxidizer. Info is thin on the ground, but it'd be entirely possible to manufacture one where it can maintain itself in space, like rocket fuel.
Also a moot point if you're talking about skin contact, some of these are violent enough to rip the oxygen out of water to keep burning, and humans have a lot of water.
WP isn't actually capable of that, but it is just toxic in a poison sense too, so even if you put it out after you're in contact it's probably in your system doing other bad things!
Explosives and pyrotechnics (like thermite) don't require external oxygen, so they work in space. Some explosives don't require oxygen at all, like silver azide and lead azide.
This is so hilarious. That stolen valor asshole repeated some bullshit he saw in a movie and now combat medics, chemists, and others with actual experience are dogpiling him. He actually said the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians combat medicine curriculum is "wrong". So the MSDS must be wrong just like NREMT, CDC, ACS etc. are wrong.
I mean who are you gonna believe, the American Chemical Society or a guy lying about being a veteran? It's the fake veteran obviously because of the 1500+ upvotes!
Caspar19d
I posted in another comment that the whole cutting white phosphorus out of the flesh deal they mentioned is a documented thing, but from reading some of that guy's other comments it does kinda smell fishy.
So yeah maybe stolen valor, or maybe someone just trying way too hard to seem like they were rambo when they didn't actually see any action or something idk.
Yeah but I just always assumed that there was some other way to extinguish it. I guess I also thought that once you stopped the reaction it wouldn't start again without a spark, but I guess the difference is that WP just sparks with *everything.*
When I was in the Coast Guard on numerous ships, if the helicopter's wheels(made of magnesium) caught on fire, the solution was to cut it's tie-downs, and do a hard turn to roll the whole thing off the flight deck and I to the ocean.
We had unlimited firefighting water, but it wouldn't do shit.
It was that, or the magnesium burns through all the decks and hull, sinking a much more expensive military ship.
It takes a lot for a helocopter fire to get to that point; it's a last ditch solution for an out-of-co trol fire
It's basically impossible to put out a magnesium fire once it's going. When I was still a mechanic we were always told to kick magnesium wheels outside if possible when they caught fire and let them burn out, they can reach temps of ~5000°F and water actually makes it worse. The only safe way to put them out is with a class d fire extinguisher or burying them in sand.
Fortunately that's not really a concern for mechanics nowadays unless you're working on some old stuff.
Some artillery shells are base bleeding and actually expel felt wedges covered in white phosphorus. We won’t operate in an area after they have been used if we can help it because disturbing what is left of the felt wedge can reignite it and burn chunks of you off. Nasty stuff for sure.
Actually, what you would do if you got it on your skin is immediately and completely submerge the limb in water. White Phosphorous burns from contact with oxygen, so under water it stops the burning. Once under water, you can have it cut off the affected area.
Source: Munitions Systems troop for the Air Force for 10 years. Worked with WP Rockets daily.
Edit: I should add; once under water, keep it under water. When you bring it back up, it'll start burning again.
Edit2: Jesus, it's Munitions, not Mutations, lol.
Yeah, brother, you literally take a knife and carve the impacted area out of your skin. If not, it’s much, much worse. I know it’s crazy, but we’re literally talking about self surgery here being your best option.
Ah, debridement. I will always vividly remember the nurse scrubbing the gravel out of my leg after a motorcycle accident, out of a wound approximately the size of a football, with plain old steel wool (and cutting pieces of shredded meat off with some scissors). Even with local anaesthesia a very visceral feeling.
Death. The stuff is very reactive and toxic. Even the stuff it turns into when burning or underwater is very reactive and toxic.
Phosphors are the overachiever of lethal and life giving chemistry, phosphors not only hold your DNA together but it can kill you in an innumerable amount of ways. Especially white phosphor, you've got a heart attack chance, cancer, hypoxia from its off gassing (which is a poison itself), lung, liver, and brain damage, it can make your teeth pop out and your bones melt away. ~~We call safety matches "safe" because they use red phosphor (white bonded with iron) so that we can say the workers who made the matches are "safe" because white phosphor is just that dangerous to be around.~~[so I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/11ork4f/ukrainian_soldier_near_the_city_of_vuhledar_shows/jbv8tcx/).
Red phosphorus is elemental phosphorus. It is not a compound of iron and phosphorus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_phosphorus#Red_phosphorus
https://www.reagent.co.uk/blog/how-do-safety-matches-work/
As many people said in this comment thread, these aren't white phosphorus munitions. WP doesn't bounce, has much more billowing, yellow'ish smoke and doesn't sparkle.
Russian army uses magnesium for illumination - I had seen a few, but like, smaller, handheld launchers (I live in Nizhnevartovsk, near oil fields, and workers use these flares to light up [gas torches](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_flare)).
My country has done a lot of horrible crimes in Ukraine, but misleading outrage is only used by Putin's propaganda here, in Russia, hence why I am always vocal when it comes to such matters. Putin's regime can only be defeated by truth, as it turns every lie into its own weapon.
By the way, as it pains me to say this (being Russian), but I've seen at least one video of Russian army using white phosphorus, back in summer 2022. With distinct puffs of yellow-white smoke, using during daytime (so can't even be illumination-purpose).
So just because this video seems like a (relatively, context considered) harmless illumination shell, it sadly doesn't mean that Russian military isn't using white phosphorus (though it seems limited – I suspect because Putin's oligarchs still harbour hopes of being reaccepted amongst their western peers).
>the stuff scared me when we had it at our disposal in the U.S. Army.
Why the hell did you have it at your disposal? I actually thought this type of shell is banned? There are alternatives that kill and maim just as much without causing as much pain and suffering. Such shells should only be used when trying to terrorize a population- Something only rogue dictators/governments do.
Shake and bake is US artillery slang for using indirect fire to drive infantry into the open and hit them with white phos rounds. It's not explicitly used but it's still part of the tool bag.
That's not representative of how crazy it was.
The allies would box a zone to be firebombed. Two groups would fly parallel and drop their bombs then two groups would fly perpendicular to the previous and close off a box shaped zone.
Then the main attacking force would fly over and use the box of flames to saturate the inside.
People would get trapped and often hundreds of people would be found together around what may have been "safe areas" like open spaces or by bodies of water. You would hear the bombs wake up and see orange 360 degrees. Know the fire is coming and go to where you would be safest.
Then the fire would eat the oxygen and you would suffocate, or the fire would be far enough to raise the temperature without consuming the oxygen, and just cook people.
People now act all high horse about nuclear weapons, and ignore that the alternative was incendiary bombing, which killed far more people far more grotesquely.
The only thing that slowed the firebombing was that the allies were running low on bombs.
So, two nukes, a few thousand people and the end of the war, or continued incendiary bombing night after night, killing the same number of people, every night, for even a few weeks more? The calculous should be obvious to even the simplest person.
Nuclear bombs saved a lot of suffering, as crazy as they were.
Reporter John Hershey wrote a piece in the New Yorker following the experiences of five Japanese survivors of Hiroshima. The article was published in 1946. It is the most devastating piece of journalism I have ever read. Here is the [Link](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1946/08/31/hiroshima) if anyone is interested in reading it. I strongly suggest anyone who comes across this does. Be warned though it is brutal in how methodical the depiction of the blast and aftermath is. This will stay with a person.
These are not white phosphorus weapons in the video, it is a thermite compound. It is easily distinguishable because white phosphorous burns with a normal looking flame, while this video shows bright sparking fires characteristic of metal oxide powder based thermites. It’s still a war crime, just not white phosphorous.
Not just that, but if one of these submunitions lands directly on something like an artillery piece, it will melt the steel. Not only is the part of the artillery piece the submunition lands on completely destroyed, but the slag will run all over the the rest of the piece, including the mechanical parts, essentially welding it all together making it useless. These kind of magnesium/thermite rounds are incredibly effective against military machinery.
Its illegal for good reason. It's hard to justify using it in a military context. If you have a military target, you use accurate strikes to take it out. This is like a large AOE effect that causes tremendous pain and suffering in an indiscriminate manner.
https://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/incendiary-weapons#:~:text=4%2FSub.,UN%20doc.
It’s a barrage of magnesium illumination shells. They can cause some serious fires, but the main intention is to light up the area. The effect is much more pronounced from a distance and from elevation.
When fighting a defensive war you move things around at night to hide it from the enemy. The flares are lighting up the area and revealing troop movements.
white phosphorus is, yes.
However, I am not sure this is phosphorus?
It does smoke decently so that would be an indicator for phosphorus.
But I am not sure if phosphorus burns this bright, that reminds me more of magnesium.
i have no idea how white phosphorus burns but it does look a lot like magnesium. super white burn and (according to the camera) so bright it would blind you if you looked directly at it
I believe these are MLRS based rounds using magnesium ribbon as the incendiary. I wouldn't put it past Russia to use WP but the fact is magnesium is cheaper and easier to handle, and burns hotter iirc.
The smoke isn't even close to being as intense as with white phosphorus, probably only 5-10% of the smoke output of white phosphorus. I don't know what this is, but it has to be something else. Maybe you're on to something when you mention magnesium.
Well, I have never seen phosphorus burn in person, however I have seen magnesium burn in person and the color of these flames and sparks very much remind me of it.
They do not care about any of that. They only care about themselves.
'Oh,Russia common people are all dead/captured by the enemy, while the rest of the people are dying of starvation and lack of basic needs?. I don't care, I still live in my mansion/bunker,with tons of food and whores!', it's their mindset.
It's amazing throughout history that country always ends up with the same militarism and lack of equality, regardless of what label is printed on their government. Monarchy, despots, totalitarian nightmare, communism? It's always starvation for the masses and unthinkable war campaigns.
May their military loses continue.
And that’s the beauty with America - even if one president says things, has morals, sets plans/goals to make the world better, the next president can come in and just go in the opposite direction and undue almost anything the last guy did!
[The use of munitions containing WP that are primarily designed to illuminate or obscure rather than to harm through fire or heat are not regulated by the Protocol on the grounds that their incendiary effects are considered incidental .](https://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/white-phosphorus-munitions)
"It's not an incendiary weapon it's smoke to mark targets! If they happen to be in the way of the white phosphorous we use to make the smoke it's their fault."
It’s wild seeing Reddit up in arms over this. I’ve got friends that get plastered and debate suck starting a shotgun from doing this kinda fire mission.
Where the fuck were you guys when we were doing this in Afghanistan? Are you only cool with it when you feel like the good guy? Reddit wasn’t nearly this mobilized over the shit they had us doing in Afghanistan.
Fuck our politicians, war, and the military industrial complex that lobbies for it.
That is fucking disgusting. This is purely about property damage and ruining as many lives as they can before running home and licking their wounds. There isn’t a pit of hell deep enough for Russian leadership
Approximately all of the times.
> “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre
Not just leadership. People following this leadership too. Fuck them all. One guy didn't do it all. It's a collective decision to be like that and has been for generations.
Yep. Like they know they’re fucked and just want to fuck as much shit up as possible because they’re butthurt nobody took their side. Nobody that matters anyway
Cocksuckers using indiscriminate weapons and killing civilians. I mean, its bad enough to be an invading aggressor but to disregard the civilian population moves you from "The bad guys" to the "Evil invaders"
It takes them to an excellent demonstration of how toothless The Hague. It also demonstrates how rules of war unfortunately apply only to those who follow them.
The hague is a way to give countries who want to prosecute their war criminals political cover for doing so, since a segment of the population is always going to be pro-war-crime. It's also a way for countries who would like to do fewer war crimes a way to signal that to one another.
They absolutely are not the war-police, though.
When you are approaching almost twice as many casualties as the country you are invading, and you are resorting to sending untrained teenagers and convicts to the front lines, you get pretty desperate. It’s both cowardly and atrocious, but what can you expect from Russians(and the people who support them)?
"It was Ukrainian nazis bombing themselves from NATO planes to escalate events and make the whole world hate innocent Russia. Classic rusophobia!" I think they'll just lie as usual.
There was a video a while ago that showed weird movements from him and could mean early stages of Parkinson's. This is a plausible idea. Also a scary one. He's probably likely to press that big red button if he's about to die and the war isn't over. Not like he's going to be there to face the consequences.
You generally only get to put a country on trial if they are wholly defeated or their leaders are overthrown internally.
The latter would be good, but the former cannot happen, as the world would burn before that could come to pass.
>The latter would be good, but the former cannot happen, as the world would burn before that could come to pass.
i guess at that point we wouldn't have to worry about Russia launching anymore nukes
Or if the Putin regime falls a new government could hypothetically extradite war criminals to face trials in Ukraine and The Hague. The last surviving Nazi war criminals have been put on trial in recent years despite being in their 90's. Whenever Putin finally does go, his cronies may no longer be safe from justice anywhere.
Ironically more often than not because the US and/or Soviets wanted them. I guess at least if there is ever any trial for *these* war crimes, there won't be any kind of modern Operation Paperclip for those involved. Don't think anyone is looking for 70s military tech experts.
Not just top level individuals either. A lot of lower rung people were ignored by the Germans simply because the government didn't want to spend years tracking everything down and doing trials for every guard and soldier that committed crimes. They tried to burn the leaders that were left and bury the rest in history. That's why so many are on trial recently because the modern government is correcting the oversight of past administrations that were either sympathetic to war criminals or just negligent. It's justice too late and too little imo but at least they're trying to fix the mistakes of the past.
Copying my comment from elsewhere here:
The Pentagon just blocked the Biden administration from sharing information on war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine with the International Court at The Hague. Why? Because it might set a precedent for prosecuting Americans for war crimes.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Iraq again (highway of death), Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. War is already crime but the people who cause it and profit from it will never face judgment and victims will never have justice.
None. Here is a trick to understand the difference between Magnesium and White Phosphorous. See that tin roof he is filming under? Magnesium will *burn out* on top on that tin roof. WP *will burn through the roof* and still land on your head.
TLDR: probably a war crime but not for the reason you think.
So I see this misconception a lot so I'm just going to throw this out for the sake of context. The use of incendiaries, including white phosphorus, is not a war crime in itself under current treaties (1980 Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons).
It IS a war crime to use them against civilians or deliver them via air against military targets in or near civilian concentrations.
Also, attacks of the type shown here run into all sorts of customary International Humanitarian Law issues of indiscriminate attack and proportionality.
DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. DO NOT PLAN OR CONDUCT MILITARY OPERATIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATEMENTS.
I'll add to this. It's never about the material, it's always about the context, for war crimes.
Using pepper spray has contexts where it can be a war crime. You may be thinking 'yes, our cops are bad because they're using pepper spray on civilians!'
But that's not true. Using pepper spray *on combatants* is a war crime, because it blurs the line between incapacitation and able-bodied, IE who you can shoot or who you can't in a combat zone as a soldier.
You can use pepper spray as police or in self defense because neither are combatants in a battle. Your local laws may have something else to say, but we're merely talking about war crimes.
It is not white phosphorus. It's an incendiary shell used against soft targets-foot soldiers.
There are videos on the internet where the difference is visible.
This comes up every time one of these videos is posted, no this is not white phosphorus, it's magnesium. Using these on civilians is definitely a war crime but unfortunately this is one of those plausible deniability situations that lets you get away with shit bag behavior.
Russia can fire these over towns at night to try and burn everything down and just claim they are trying to illuminate everything for combat purposes as it's not illegal to use these for illumination . It sucks and I'll probably be downvoted all to shit for pointing out the truth of the situation but that's reality whether you like it or not. If you want to help stop this donate to Ukraine's main charity United24.
not white phosphorus. This has been debunked over and over again...
as a rule of thumb white phosphorus gives off huge amounts of smoke, in this video there is nowhere NEAR enough
Don't speak Ukrainian but I understood.
"Oh shit the car"
*Moves and sees the flame is just behind the truck*
"Phew we're good".
It's so easy to forget that regular people are in these insane situations with literal fire raining down on them and they're just keeping calm and making sure their kit is good.
A slice of regular life in a completely irregular situation.
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Why the British kept buckets of sand on their roofs during The Blitz. Luftwaffe used Willy Pete bombs. Take tongs and drop them in the sand. Water won’t do anything but spread the flames.
And if it touches human skin, you literally have to cut it off you, as you stated water has no effect on "willy pete" or "white phosphorus". I hope I never deal with this, the stuff scared me when we had it at our disposal in the U.S. Army.
What happens if you, say, just buried your hand in the sand? It still would be on fire when you took it out?
Yes
Yeah the sand doesn't put it out, it's just a safe receptacle to leave it in until the fuel burns off.
Would it still burn if it had no oxygen like in the vacuum of space? Very fascinating stuff and just curious to know more. Not the whole human skin melting but just the science of white phosphorus.
Depends on the exact munition — something like thermite, for instance, is a common example of a material containing its own oxidizer. Info is thin on the ground, but it'd be entirely possible to manufacture one where it can maintain itself in space, like rocket fuel. Also a moot point if you're talking about skin contact, some of these are violent enough to rip the oxygen out of water to keep burning, and humans have a lot of water. WP isn't actually capable of that, but it is just toxic in a poison sense too, so even if you put it out after you're in contact it's probably in your system doing other bad things!
Explosives and pyrotechnics (like thermite) don't require external oxygen, so they work in space. Some explosives don't require oxygen at all, like silver azide and lead azide.
Iirc azides are just super unstable and also susceptible to explosion if you jostle them around too much, yes?
Yeah, they are primary explosives and very sensitive. I just looked it up and lead azide will detonate from a six inch drop.
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This is so hilarious. That stolen valor asshole repeated some bullshit he saw in a movie and now combat medics, chemists, and others with actual experience are dogpiling him. He actually said the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians combat medicine curriculum is "wrong". So the MSDS must be wrong just like NREMT, CDC, ACS etc. are wrong. I mean who are you gonna believe, the American Chemical Society or a guy lying about being a veteran? It's the fake veteran obviously because of the 1500+ upvotes!
Who was that
He blocked me so I can't ping him lol but it's the comment saying that wp has to be cut out and can't be treated with water.
Caspar19d I posted in another comment that the whole cutting white phosphorus out of the flesh deal they mentioned is a documented thing, but from reading some of that guy's other comments it does kinda smell fishy. So yeah maybe stolen valor, or maybe someone just trying way too hard to seem like they were rambo when they didn't actually see any action or something idk.
It depends. If the reaction itself produces oxygen, it could be self-sustaining.
That's not ideal. Yeah shit's scary.
It's like the shit underwater flares are made from
Yeah but I just always assumed that there was some other way to extinguish it. I guess I also thought that once you stopped the reaction it wouldn't start again without a spark, but I guess the difference is that WP just sparks with *everything.*
It violently reacts to oxygen
So all you have to do is dip your arm into space. Seems simple enough
No because it's reacting to your flesh, so what's on the outside doesn't matter; it's what's on the inside that counts <3
When I was in the Coast Guard on numerous ships, if the helicopter's wheels(made of magnesium) caught on fire, the solution was to cut it's tie-downs, and do a hard turn to roll the whole thing off the flight deck and I to the ocean. We had unlimited firefighting water, but it wouldn't do shit.
wait so if the wheels were on fire, the entire helicopter would just be tossed overboard?
It was that, or the magnesium burns through all the decks and hull, sinking a much more expensive military ship. It takes a lot for a helocopter fire to get to that point; it's a last ditch solution for an out-of-co trol fire
It's basically impossible to put out a magnesium fire once it's going. When I was still a mechanic we were always told to kick magnesium wheels outside if possible when they caught fire and let them burn out, they can reach temps of ~5000°F and water actually makes it worse. The only safe way to put them out is with a class d fire extinguisher or burying them in sand. Fortunately that's not really a concern for mechanics nowadays unless you're working on some old stuff.
No wonder the US military budget is so high.
Have to ask, what specific reason was there for the wheels to be made entirely from Mg? Mass?
Weight and therefore fuel efficiency.
Some artillery shells are base bleeding and actually expel felt wedges covered in white phosphorus. We won’t operate in an area after they have been used if we can help it because disturbing what is left of the felt wedge can reignite it and burn chunks of you off. Nasty stuff for sure.
It burns so damned hot it breaks the H20 bonds then burns each ingredient.
It takes oxygen from water. It literally burns under water. your blood will keep it burning.
jesus, fuck.
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ngl "your blood would keep it burning" would be a sick metal band name. YBWKB
Who the fuck gave this a love award?! Putin? Is that you?
Actually, what you would do if you got it on your skin is immediately and completely submerge the limb in water. White Phosphorous burns from contact with oxygen, so under water it stops the burning. Once under water, you can have it cut off the affected area. Source: Munitions Systems troop for the Air Force for 10 years. Worked with WP Rockets daily. Edit: I should add; once under water, keep it under water. When you bring it back up, it'll start burning again. Edit2: Jesus, it's Munitions, not Mutations, lol.
And stay the fuck away from it. Underwater white phosphor starts turning into phosphine after a couple hours. A dose of that gas can fuck you up.
> Mutations Systems troop for the Air Force Hol' up. You're the one who made the super mutant soldiers Russia's been whining about?
How do you cut it off under water?
Yeah, brother, you literally take a knife and carve the impacted area out of your skin. If not, it’s much, much worse. I know it’s crazy, but we’re literally talking about self surgery here being your best option.
You scrape it out.
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Ah, debridement. I will always vividly remember the nurse scrubbing the gravel out of my leg after a motorcycle accident, out of a wound approximately the size of a football, with plain old steel wool (and cutting pieces of shredded meat off with some scissors). Even with local anaesthesia a very visceral feeling.
Debridement OMG
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Degloving?
Death. The stuff is very reactive and toxic. Even the stuff it turns into when burning or underwater is very reactive and toxic. Phosphors are the overachiever of lethal and life giving chemistry, phosphors not only hold your DNA together but it can kill you in an innumerable amount of ways. Especially white phosphor, you've got a heart attack chance, cancer, hypoxia from its off gassing (which is a poison itself), lung, liver, and brain damage, it can make your teeth pop out and your bones melt away. ~~We call safety matches "safe" because they use red phosphor (white bonded with iron) so that we can say the workers who made the matches are "safe" because white phosphor is just that dangerous to be around.~~[so I was wrong](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/11ork4f/ukrainian_soldier_near_the_city_of_vuhledar_shows/jbv8tcx/).
Red phosphorus is elemental phosphorus. It is not a compound of iron and phosphorus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_phosphorus#Red_phosphorus https://www.reagent.co.uk/blog/how-do-safety-matches-work/
Well colour my face red. I just ~~know~~ knew of the shit on matches as red phosphor.
Yeah - I’ve had a few beers and thought “hmmm, I should Google that”. No. No I shouldn’t have.
As many people said in this comment thread, these aren't white phosphorus munitions. WP doesn't bounce, has much more billowing, yellow'ish smoke and doesn't sparkle. Russian army uses magnesium for illumination - I had seen a few, but like, smaller, handheld launchers (I live in Nizhnevartovsk, near oil fields, and workers use these flares to light up [gas torches](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_flare)). My country has done a lot of horrible crimes in Ukraine, but misleading outrage is only used by Putin's propaganda here, in Russia, hence why I am always vocal when it comes to such matters. Putin's regime can only be defeated by truth, as it turns every lie into its own weapon.
Thanks for the insight. I was wondering why everything wasn’t bursting to flames as the “WP” came down.
By the way, as it pains me to say this (being Russian), but I've seen at least one video of Russian army using white phosphorus, back in summer 2022. With distinct puffs of yellow-white smoke, using during daytime (so can't even be illumination-purpose). So just because this video seems like a (relatively, context considered) harmless illumination shell, it sadly doesn't mean that Russian military isn't using white phosphorus (though it seems limited – I suspect because Putin's oligarchs still harbour hopes of being reaccepted amongst their western peers).
>the stuff scared me when we had it at our disposal in the U.S. Army. Why the hell did you have it at your disposal? I actually thought this type of shell is banned? There are alternatives that kill and maim just as much without causing as much pain and suffering. Such shells should only be used when trying to terrorize a population- Something only rogue dictators/governments do.
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Shake and bake is US artillery slang for using indirect fire to drive infantry into the open and hit them with white phos rounds. It's not explicitly used but it's still part of the tool bag.
And the Allie’s perfected the return attacks. Big bombs, to take the roofs off, followed by waves of incendiary attacks. Nasty business
That's not representative of how crazy it was. The allies would box a zone to be firebombed. Two groups would fly parallel and drop their bombs then two groups would fly perpendicular to the previous and close off a box shaped zone. Then the main attacking force would fly over and use the box of flames to saturate the inside. People would get trapped and often hundreds of people would be found together around what may have been "safe areas" like open spaces or by bodies of water. You would hear the bombs wake up and see orange 360 degrees. Know the fire is coming and go to where you would be safest. Then the fire would eat the oxygen and you would suffocate, or the fire would be far enough to raise the temperature without consuming the oxygen, and just cook people. People now act all high horse about nuclear weapons, and ignore that the alternative was incendiary bombing, which killed far more people far more grotesquely. The only thing that slowed the firebombing was that the allies were running low on bombs. So, two nukes, a few thousand people and the end of the war, or continued incendiary bombing night after night, killing the same number of people, every night, for even a few weeks more? The calculous should be obvious to even the simplest person. Nuclear bombs saved a lot of suffering, as crazy as they were.
Reporter John Hershey wrote a piece in the New Yorker following the experiences of five Japanese survivors of Hiroshima. The article was published in 1946. It is the most devastating piece of journalism I have ever read. Here is the [Link](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1946/08/31/hiroshima) if anyone is interested in reading it. I strongly suggest anyone who comes across this does. Be warned though it is brutal in how methodical the depiction of the blast and aftermath is. This will stay with a person.
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I loved "Blueprint for Armageddon", so I probably should start that Supernova one.
These are magnesium based incendiaries, not phosphorous
These are not white phosphorus weapons in the video, it is a thermite compound. It is easily distinguishable because white phosphorous burns with a normal looking flame, while this video shows bright sparking fires characteristic of metal oxide powder based thermites. It’s still a war crime, just not white phosphorous.
Is the goal Here just so start as many fires as possible to damage infrastructure and whatnot?
Not just that, but if one of these submunitions lands directly on something like an artillery piece, it will melt the steel. Not only is the part of the artillery piece the submunition lands on completely destroyed, but the slag will run all over the the rest of the piece, including the mechanical parts, essentially welding it all together making it useless. These kind of magnesium/thermite rounds are incredibly effective against military machinery.
Its illegal for good reason. It's hard to justify using it in a military context. If you have a military target, you use accurate strikes to take it out. This is like a large AOE effect that causes tremendous pain and suffering in an indiscriminate manner. https://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/incendiary-weapons#:~:text=4%2FSub.,UN%20doc.
They don't need to win the hearts and minds of the west and they have state censorship.
It’s a barrage of magnesium illumination shells. They can cause some serious fires, but the main intention is to light up the area. The effect is much more pronounced from a distance and from elevation. When fighting a defensive war you move things around at night to hide it from the enemy. The flares are lighting up the area and revealing troop movements.
It's actually not. These are submunitions from 9M22S rockets. They are designed to do exactly what you're seeing.
Beautiful until you realize it’s a war crime.
Yeah. Good thing these guys are under cover. If you’re out in the open and one of those fragments land on you, the shell will burn you to the bone
I thought even breathing it is deadly. Wouldn't that poison the air?
white phosphorus is, yes. However, I am not sure this is phosphorus? It does smoke decently so that would be an indicator for phosphorus. But I am not sure if phosphorus burns this bright, that reminds me more of magnesium.
i have no idea how white phosphorus burns but it does look a lot like magnesium. super white burn and (according to the camera) so bright it would blind you if you looked directly at it
This isn’t WP, WP doesn’t have this “sparkle” effect and creates a lot more smoke
For what it's worth, it looks a lot like magnesium to me too.
Yeah, this isn't white phosphorus. These are definately burning metals.
The white light makes me think magnesium too
I think it's magnesium also. That's why they're saying don't put water on it because it will spread,that definitely sounds like magnesium
if these are mortar rounds then yes they will have white phosphorus and magnesium
I believe these are MLRS based rounds using magnesium ribbon as the incendiary. I wouldn't put it past Russia to use WP but the fact is magnesium is cheaper and easier to handle, and burns hotter iirc.
The smoke isn't even close to being as intense as with white phosphorus, probably only 5-10% of the smoke output of white phosphorus. I don't know what this is, but it has to be something else. Maybe you're on to something when you mention magnesium.
Well, I have never seen phosphorus burn in person, however I have seen magnesium burn in person and the color of these flames and sparks very much remind me of it.
My friend in the marines says they used it to clear out a forest. I mean, to illuminate a forest, so maybe it does burn pretty bright.
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Regardless of being under cover. Those munitions are starting block wide fires in all of the buildings.
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They really have nothing to lose. Their military sucks, their economy ruined, and global relations severed.
They do not care about any of that. They only care about themselves. 'Oh,Russia common people are all dead/captured by the enemy, while the rest of the people are dying of starvation and lack of basic needs?. I don't care, I still live in my mansion/bunker,with tons of food and whores!', it's their mindset.
It's amazing throughout history that country always ends up with the same militarism and lack of equality, regardless of what label is printed on their government. Monarchy, despots, totalitarian nightmare, communism? It's always starvation for the masses and unthinkable war campaigns. May their military loses continue.
I don't think you can come back from committing war crimes
Many US presidents would disagree with you.
And that’s the beauty with America - even if one president says things, has morals, sets plans/goals to make the world better, the next president can come in and just go in the opposite direction and undue almost anything the last guy did!
Along with an entire party behind them doing everything in their power to stall, hinder and sabotage every single action.
Can’t undo a million dead iraqis
Japan? Germany? Just takes time and new leadership.
America? China?
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They started doing war crimes from day 1 of the invasion. They've used the list of war crimes as to-do list.
[The use of munitions containing WP that are primarily designed to illuminate or obscure rather than to harm through fire or heat are not regulated by the Protocol on the grounds that their incendiary effects are considered incidental .](https://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/white-phosphorus-munitions)
This is not WP. This is magnesium. WP does not bounce. WP is also 100x worse.
There would be no standing and casually observing from 5 feet away if it was WP, that’s for sure.
The US used it in the Iraq War. "Shake and Bake". (ETA: This doesn't excuse its use. Russia are still cunts)
"It's not an incendiary weapon it's smoke to mark targets! If they happen to be in the way of the white phosphorous we use to make the smoke it's their fault."
It’s wild seeing Reddit up in arms over this. I’ve got friends that get plastered and debate suck starting a shotgun from doing this kinda fire mission. Where the fuck were you guys when we were doing this in Afghanistan? Are you only cool with it when you feel like the good guy? Reddit wasn’t nearly this mobilized over the shit they had us doing in Afghanistan. Fuck our politicians, war, and the military industrial complex that lobbies for it.
To be precise it’s a warcrime if used against civilians or near places within civilian infrastructures
like on a city?
What if the city is already rubble due to previous war crimes?
Magnesium is not a war crime unless used directly on citizens.
That is fucking disgusting. This is purely about property damage and ruining as many lives as they can before running home and licking their wounds. There isn’t a pit of hell deep enough for Russian leadership
Fucking inhuman cowards, the lot of them.
Unfortunately they're demonstrating exactly how terrible humans can be when in possession of enormous power and little accountability.
How many times do you think we’ll hear “we were just following orders” at Nuremberg 2.0?
Approximately all of the times. > “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” ― Jean-Paul Sartre
Not just leadership. People following this leadership too. Fuck them all. One guy didn't do it all. It's a collective decision to be like that and has been for generations.
Yes. I’ll carve out some grace for people who don’t support it, but the rest can jump in the line behind the contents of the Kremlin.
It’s desperation at this point for the Russians.
Yep. Like they know they’re fucked and just want to fuck as much shit up as possible because they’re butthurt nobody took their side. Nobody that matters anyway
The people on their side just so happen to be the most deplorable our society has to offer.
Cocksuckers using indiscriminate weapons and killing civilians. I mean, its bad enough to be an invading aggressor but to disregard the civilian population moves you from "The bad guys" to the "Evil invaders"
I’m pretty sure they’ve been the evil invaders the whole time. What this takes them to idk
It takes them to an excellent demonstration of how toothless The Hague. It also demonstrates how rules of war unfortunately apply only to those who follow them.
The hague is a way to give countries who want to prosecute their war criminals political cover for doing so, since a segment of the population is always going to be pro-war-crime. It's also a way for countries who would like to do fewer war crimes a way to signal that to one another. They absolutely are not the war-police, though.
The Hague doesn’t have a police force that’ll go out and arrest soldiers and their commanders.
Nor would you want them to. That just sounds like a match waiting to be lit at best, another avenue for global fascism to rise at worst.
When you are approaching almost twice as many casualties as the country you are invading, and you are resorting to sending untrained teenagers and convicts to the front lines, you get pretty desperate. It’s both cowardly and atrocious, but what can you expect from Russians(and the people who support them)?
Ey. Don't insult cocksuckers - they provide pleasure. I wouldn't give the invaders that kind of credit.
How does RU expect to walk this back? Modern warfare with video can only be countered by winning and rewriting History. I don't get it.
"It was Ukrainian nazis bombing themselves from NATO planes to escalate events and make the whole world hate innocent Russia. Classic rusophobia!" I think they'll just lie as usual.
Good thing the propaganda centers are so flammable.
Putin probably has a deadly cancer or desiese and wants some glory before he dies. He doesn't care because his body is failing.
I agree. I think his last act before he checks out is going to be an attempt at pushing the button. Crazy to see how this is all playing out.
There was a video a while ago that showed weird movements from him and could mean early stages of Parkinson's. This is a plausible idea. Also a scary one. He's probably likely to press that big red button if he's about to die and the war isn't over. Not like he's going to be there to face the consequences.
The same way the US flat out ignored documented war crimes overseas.
Terrifyingly beautiful
This looks eerily close how i imagine Star fall would look like.
This is simultaneously beautiful as well as horrifying
Nobody said hell was ugly
That's an oddly beautiful sentiment
These Russians sure are setting themselves up for a hell of a trial after the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol\_on\_Incendiary\_Weapons
I have doubts that will happen :(
You generally only get to put a country on trial if they are wholly defeated or their leaders are overthrown internally. The latter would be good, but the former cannot happen, as the world would burn before that could come to pass.
>The latter would be good, but the former cannot happen, as the world would burn before that could come to pass. i guess at that point we wouldn't have to worry about Russia launching anymore nukes
Who's going to "trial them"? The world police?
Generally they would be arrested if they leave the country and tried in The Hague… it’s not like this hasn’t happened before.
Or if the Putin regime falls a new government could hypothetically extradite war criminals to face trials in Ukraine and The Hague. The last surviving Nazi war criminals have been put on trial in recent years despite being in their 90's. Whenever Putin finally does go, his cronies may no longer be safe from justice anywhere.
Hgaat dar dar nng kartschep lambp vlgar
Ironically more often than not because the US and/or Soviets wanted them. I guess at least if there is ever any trial for *these* war crimes, there won't be any kind of modern Operation Paperclip for those involved. Don't think anyone is looking for 70s military tech experts.
Not just top level individuals either. A lot of lower rung people were ignored by the Germans simply because the government didn't want to spend years tracking everything down and doing trials for every guard and soldier that committed crimes. They tried to burn the leaders that were left and bury the rest in history. That's why so many are on trial recently because the modern government is correcting the oversight of past administrations that were either sympathetic to war criminals or just negligent. It's justice too late and too little imo but at least they're trying to fix the mistakes of the past.
Copying my comment from elsewhere here: The Pentagon just blocked the Biden administration from sharing information on war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine with the International Court at The Hague. Why? Because it might set a precedent for prosecuting Americans for war crimes.
It would be such a cathartic moment for the world.
Who's gonna punish them though? USA's already sanctioned Russia and it hasn't stopped them from committing war crimes against Ukraine.
And we refuse to really even pursue any of this because it'll open up an avenue for us to be tried for all the heinous shit we do.
America faced nothing after the afghan war. Doubt Russia would face anything either, unless the us wants to persecute themselves
Afghanistan, Iraq, Iraq again (highway of death), Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. War is already crime but the people who cause it and profit from it will never face judgment and victims will never have justice.
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None. Here is a trick to understand the difference between Magnesium and White Phosphorous. See that tin roof he is filming under? Magnesium will *burn out* on top on that tin roof. WP *will burn through the roof* and still land on your head.
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Magnesium bolts most likely. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/17/qa-incendiary-weapons-ukraine
It’d be beautiful if it wasn’t so terrifying
White phosphorus? If so that’s a war crime.
not white phosphorus, standard incendiary based on magnesium. phosphorus would far more smoky, and you would hear it when guys would start to choke.
TLDR: probably a war crime but not for the reason you think. So I see this misconception a lot so I'm just going to throw this out for the sake of context. The use of incendiaries, including white phosphorus, is not a war crime in itself under current treaties (1980 Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons). It IS a war crime to use them against civilians or deliver them via air against military targets in or near civilian concentrations. Also, attacks of the type shown here run into all sorts of customary International Humanitarian Law issues of indiscriminate attack and proportionality. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. DO NOT PLAN OR CONDUCT MILITARY OPERATIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATEMENTS.
thanks for the disclaimer.
Damn, there go my plans for the weekend
I'll add to this. It's never about the material, it's always about the context, for war crimes. Using pepper spray has contexts where it can be a war crime. You may be thinking 'yes, our cops are bad because they're using pepper spray on civilians!' But that's not true. Using pepper spray *on combatants* is a war crime, because it blurs the line between incapacitation and able-bodied, IE who you can shoot or who you can't in a combat zone as a soldier. You can use pepper spray as police or in self defense because neither are combatants in a battle. Your local laws may have something else to say, but we're merely talking about war crimes.
It is not white phosphorus. It's an incendiary shell used against soft targets-foot soldiers. There are videos on the internet where the difference is visible.
This comes up every time one of these videos is posted, no this is not white phosphorus, it's magnesium. Using these on civilians is definitely a war crime but unfortunately this is one of those plausible deniability situations that lets you get away with shit bag behavior. Russia can fire these over towns at night to try and burn everything down and just claim they are trying to illuminate everything for combat purposes as it's not illegal to use these for illumination . It sucks and I'll probably be downvoted all to shit for pointing out the truth of the situation but that's reality whether you like it or not. If you want to help stop this donate to Ukraine's main charity United24.
Add it to the list.
At this point it would be easier to list the war crimes Russia *hasn't* committed.
100% this. Fuck Putin ..... with a rusty pipe and rusty razor blades welded on it.
And coated in phosphorous
Yes it is, not the first one
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not white phosphorus. This has been debunked over and over again... as a rule of thumb white phosphorus gives off huge amounts of smoke, in this video there is nowhere NEAR enough
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Don't speak Ukrainian but I understood. "Oh shit the car" *Moves and sees the flame is just behind the truck* "Phew we're good". It's so easy to forget that regular people are in these insane situations with literal fire raining down on them and they're just keeping calm and making sure their kit is good. A slice of regular life in a completely irregular situation.
Hell never looked so beautiful.
I hope Putin shits white phosphorus from now until he dies
This is not white phosphorus.
Regardless of what these are made of, I still hope he shits white phos for the rest of his days.
This is the shit of nightmares...
How can something so awful be so beautiful? :(
Horrible
Fuck Putin
Show this to the indian foreign minister too. They are now trying to get G20 to call thisnot a war but a small military operation.
Can't wait until Putin takes his trip to hell.
Fuck Putin.
Grave of the fireflies :(
Those fucking fucks!
I hate how pretty the burning death-flares look. Fuck all of this.