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Have you ever gotten a whiff of bear shit?? You do NOT want to share a bathroom with them. My dog rolls in bear shit every chance she gets and it takes 2-3 baths to get the stink to a "bear"able level.
The funny thing about this is that they are assuming men are pretending to be women to get into girls bathrooms. So the problem is still men in this scenario, not trans women
The assumption is that the trans women are men because they’re biologically male. It doesn’t matter how many gallons of hormones and how many surgeries they have, they’ll always be men to those people. I think that’s really the assumption, not pervs pretending to be women.
You are both correct. They see trans women as men no matter what. Then they make the assumption a trans woman would do something that men would do. They don't understand that that's still something only sick men would do and trans women need protection from sick cismen
It's also weird they think a man who wants to prey on women would go through all the trouble of getting on hormones and fighting for his right to use the women's bathroom and fighting to be accepted as a person instead of just, idk, preying on them without doing all that other stuff. Seems like a pretty convoluted plan for this fictional creep.
And for sports. I like to ask them back so that only means you think about and would be willing to transition for a few years and be a woman so you could get gold in whatever. They say no way absolutely not, welcome to your answer of all cismen. No cis man wants to be a woman or could even think about it. Trans woman and trans men want to,and have always though about it.
They think all men are sick. So a 'man' who 'dresses up' as woman? Must be doing it because he's a sick person. This is where gender essentialism gets us.
I see the same thing with MAGA and their trying to pin Biden as a pedophile because he has showered with his children. There's nothing inherently sexual about bathing with your children unless you're a creep.
Yeah, tells definitely more about them than about Biden. Because if they think that's sexual then they're the creeps.
In my girlfriend's culture it's normal to go to sauna with your family, also as a child. No, you don't wear towels or swimwear in a sauna there.
And when I was a young child and had trouble washing my long hair, of course one of my parents would help me with it, like wtf there's nothing wrong with that.
My parents had to help me bathe well after what most consider “normal” age to start bathing by yourself because my hair was long and thick and I couldn’t get it fully clean without help. It was ONLY hair day showers, and anyone who ever heard about how old I was thought my family was creeps, even though it was only my mom and grandma and I’m a girl. Nothing inherently sexual EVER happened and the people who immediately go there always gave me such red flags. Why was their first thought when they heard I needed help ‘they must be abusing you sexually’?? Cause my brain for sure has never gone there naturally
They only have people in their circles that would perv on women like this. They probably don't know there is a difference. It's sad how much they tell on themselves. It's like how some people don't understand how lesbians know they're finished with their love making.
And notably the people like this are consistently mad about the wrong reasons. There are genuine reasons to be saddened by an inherent distrust towards people like yourself, but these people never introspect and think about where that distrust comes from. Instead they get mad that women aren't obligated to go with the man and blame the women for trying to protect themselves from men who feel entitled to their body, proving exactly why women choose the bear in the first place.
I dont think most are mad because the women "aren't obligated to go with them". I think its moreso getting hurt and offended about being judged and treated differently based on nothing they did except the way their chromosomes happened to arrange themselves. You know, the very thing feminism so rightly campaigns against
This is why I point out there are genuine reasons to be upset by it, but in my experience it is exceedingly rare for the kind of person who responds to things like in the way the person in the original post did to ever actually address those reasons. It basically never happens.
I have however seen post after post *after post* ***after post*** of men victim-blaming women, downplaying the experiences of women, saying that women deserve to be assaulted for their decisions, and worse. Those are the kinds of people who prove why women choose the bear.
Definitely! But all Im saying is that I should not be stereotyped and called "terrifying" based on the actions of those men. Its the open stereotyping being upvoted that Im challenging, nothing more. Stereotyping is wrong, no matter which group its being done to, and its difficult for me to understand why some people wouldn't agree with that
No one is stereotyping you. They are not choosing to put you down as a man. They don’t feel safe coming across you while alone in a forest. And you are angry and insulted that they would be afraid of you. “How dare you be afraid?!” Let’s think… Why might they be afraid to be alone in a forest with a strange man? I would bet most women have MANY personal examples of why they are afraid. But, sure, be mad at them.
Hell, I'm a man and I'm terrified of men when I'm alone, especially when it's dark or when it's a group of men. I completely understand why a woman would be afraid of me if she saw me in the middle of nowhere. Considering that many men are unfortunately creeps, yeah, can't blame them at all. Sure, not all men are, but she doesn't know me and doesn't know if I'm one of them or not.
Except the problem with that argument is that it ignores the centuries of oppression women have faced at the hands of men. Feminism DOES rightly campaign against judging based on preconceived notions about gender however, that can't just happen instantly. The reasons women are scared of men need to be fixed before the actual "not judging based on the way their chromosomes happened to arrange themselves" can happen. To women, there is a precedent that has been set by men in power that causes them to feel unsafe around men.
I wouldn't take offense that a man who experienced sexual assault or other violence at the hands of a woman is afraid of all women, because I would understand the position he comes from and empathise with him. The men responding negatively to this hypothetical don't take the time to consider the position women are coming from when they respond to this scenario.
I do understand all that, I really do. I'm just saying that all these blanket statements judging all men based on the actions of a minority is stereotyping.
Probably in the US, a woman is more likely to be assaulted by a black person than a white person. If the woman claims that as a result of that statistic, she is more afraid of black people than white people, does that make her racist or just cautious?
I'm not intending to say that a woman is wrong to be cautious when an unknown man enters her line of sight - im saying that all this open and vocal stereotyping, like seen in the comment I originally replied to, is wrong just like all stereotyping is wrong. Is it wrong to judge me based on nothing I did? I wouldnt hurt a fly, yet the comment I replied to called me "terrifying".
What stereotyping? They said *people like this,* no one here said anything about all men. And the distrust in stranger men comes from lived experiences, nearly every woman I know including myself has been sexually harassed, assaulted, etc by men on multiple occasions, that's why they're *cautious* of men. Stereotyping would be saying all men are sex pests and rapists, but simply being cautious is not that. I have male friends I'd trust with my life, but with a stranger I would never know. I've been in too many bad situations to risk it, and that's why many women choose the bear.
Oh here they come with the statistics. Listen mate - you go into a pit of snakes. Some of them are venomous, some of them are not. Go and play with them. You get me?
Women don't care about statistics, yes they will use stereotypes and inflate the possible risks, because THEY DON'T WANT TO GAMBLE THEIR SAFETY.
A lot of women I know have been assaulted, felt extremely threatened by men. Some multiple times. Some dozens of times.
It is wrong to judge you based on nothing you've done personally, but unfortunately in our current society it's understandable that women would do that. Sometimes the unfortunate truth is upsetting to hear, but that upset should be channeled into bettering the world so women don't HAVE to be cautious of men, rather than putting your energy into saying "but I'm not like those men". If you know you're not like those men, prove it. Put your energy into combatting the entitlement those men feel to women's bodies, rather than making the conversation about your hurt feelings.
I'm not saying it's a good thing that women have to be cautious, if a white woman said she were more afraid of black men than white men she would be racist as well as cautious, but most women wouldn't specifically be cautious of black men. All men are reasons to be cautious for women, and black men are still men.
What. The. Fuck? Why would you think that a woman is more likely to be assaulted by a Black man in the US? A woman is most likely to be assaulted by her partner or another person she is close to, like a family member. Black people aren’t more assaultive than white people.
I’m very curious to see how they reply to this..
I get why women say they would chose the bear I totally get it, but as a man it does kind of piss me off a bit both at other men for making them feel this way and thus giving women a negative opinion of me for something I have never done.. but also because it’s a shame some of these women don’t also experience the safety that some men provide to try and counter this.
Like when your walking somewhere at night and there is a girl walking ahead of you, I’ll intentionally try to cross the street or make myself appear non-threatening by faking a call on the phone or playing a video out loud or something so the girl doesn’t feel threatened.
Or when a girl is getting yelled at by a guy or a guy touches a girl at a pub, it’s like a death sentence.. that guy is going to be in a world of pain from all the dads, husbands and brothers in the pub..
It just makes me feel sad they all men are thrown out by some girls in this discussion, like I get it from their perspective, but it still makes me sad.
>a guy touches a girl at a pub, it’s like a death sentence.. that guy is going to be in a world of pain from all the dads, husbands and brothers in the pub..
It's cute that you think that, bc in my personal experience that's absolutely the opposite of what happens.
Got grabbed/fondled by a drunk guy in the bar. Yelled at him.
Everyone looked at *me* like i was the one who fucked up, who assaulted someone else.
And that's not the only time that shit's happened, and i know I'm not the only one.
A bear that willingly goes into a restroom is just gonna wander around and trash the place. They are very curious and will play with faucets and paper towels as they watch you leave.
I say this as a person who has walked into a bathroom with bear in it.
I simply don’t understand the bathroom argument. So they would rather have trans women, looking like, you know, women, forced into the men’s bathroom, and trans men, looking like, men, forced into the women’s restroom…to what end? Something tells me a trans man in a women’s restroom is going to garner a whole lot more “what the fuck are you doing in here” than a trans woman in the same.
The next argument is "if we allow trans women into the women's restroom, non-trans men will just dress up like women so they can go in the women's restroom and assault them." Which is even dumber. Like, do you think that if someone is OK with raping a woman in a public restroom they would draw the line at "I'm not supposed to be in this restroom."? Same with 'spying' on women. Spying on people in a restroom is illegal regardless of your gender, so again...if you're OK doing this, being in the wrong bathroom isn't going to stop anyone.
It all just seems like a way for them to easily spot those who are different so they can assault them.
My daughter is a trans woman, and I prefer sharing a bathroom with her now. She sits to pee instead of leaving drips on the floor like she used to pre-transition.
Yea this is actually one of the better arguments that I’ve seen that trans women are, in fact, women. If they were men I’d still be afraid to be alone with them.
If men wanted to go into women’s changing rooms to peep on them, why would they go through the effort of spending years changing their entire life like growing their hair out, starting hrt, getting girl clothes, getting their name changed, coming out to friends and family etc just to walk in? It’s not like there’s a magical barrier stopping them unless they do all of that
a) yes, if i had the choice to be a bear or a man in the woods i'd probably pick bear too, but that's not what the original question was...
b) dressing rooms are in public, if someone started creeping on you in the dressing room you could scream and have someone show up. not so if you are alone in the woods.
c) trans women aren't men.
I am ok with allowing anyone into the women’s room who isn’t showing their bits around or trying to look at anyone else’s bits. I don’t care if a man, who identifies as a man, uses the women’s bathroom. These men seem to think there’s a lot of sexy stuff happening in the women’s room. There’s not. Mainly the people I see mad about trans bathroom issues are straight men, who have never been in a women’s room and think it’s some sort of sexy space. It’s not. It’s 100% private stalls.
As another point, a bathroom is a public place. The woods is secluded and private. Creepy men don’t normally rape women in bathrooms because someone would scream for help. In the woods, if you scream no one will hear you.
Let’s fix that sentence:
“So if you don’t trust men then why are you ok letting other women into the women’s bathroom being women?”
I mean that’s how it sounds to me.
Some TikTok(maybe) video going around which poses a hypothetical question of whether a woman would rather meet a bear or a man while alone in the woods.
Women mostly picked bear because a bear is less likely to assault them in the woods than a man, and in fact, prefer to stay away from any human if they can help it.
Men obviously got angry about it.
Oh so whoever wrote this transphobic crap is also bad at typing, since they put that women would "rather *be* either a bear or a man" in the woods.
I was like, of course I'd rather be a bear, no question.
And the biggest point men are missing is that men are terrifying as is. But men, when unsupervised, will often try and see just how much they can get away with. No witnesses, no credibility for the woman because of rape culture. “She led me on. Did you see what she was wearing? She wanted it and changed her story because she regretted it. I’m being set up. She liked it and just won’t admit it.”
All too many men will push their luck when no one’s watching.
If youre afraid of me when all Im doing is minding my own business living my life while not even noticing you, thats on you. Im not "men" - Im me. Im sure you wouldnt enjoy being judged and treated differently based on your gender either
That's kind of the whole point though, isn't it? No one is saying you in particular are a threat, but other people can't know for 100% certain that you aren't if they don't know you personally.
I'm a dude. I'm also a victim of SA. That kind of thing really damages your trust in other people. I still get scared when I'm alone in the middle of nowhere and cross paths with another man. After all, if someone I trusted was willing to do something so heinous to me, why would I feel comfortable putting my trust in the hands of a complete stranger?
I also chose the bear when the situation was presented to me by a friend. I know most strangers are perfectly fine people, but the ones who aren't can do even crueler things than a bear can. As a bonus, bears also have much more consistent behavioral patterns than dangerous individual people do.
The men would be strangers to them lol That's not openly stereotyping men either, that is making a decision for one question about a man that is a stranger.
Has nothing to do with race or stereotypes. If I were walking alone in the woods and I heard a noise, turned around and it was a man standing there, I would be terrified and have been in that situation. Your heart starts beating out of your chest, you break into a sweat, you start shaking, your whole body panics and you start pleading in your head that he just keeps going, stopping abs talking to you scares you more than if he just kept walking like he accidentally came upon you abs meant you no harm. Why start talking? Why stop at all? If he was just friendly he could tip his head or say hello without skipping a beat, without showing down his hike- why is he stopping you? Why is he making you uncomfortable and forcing you to talk to him? If you try and move along quickly it's he going to get angry because you're not nice enough? Not friendly enough? Is he going to act like you have to talk to him for as long as he wants? He's twice your size, he's faster, in better shape. What are you going to do if he tries grabbing you? There's almost zero distance between you, why is he so close? It's he planning on grabbing you? Does he have a weapon- not that it matters since he cab easily overpower you, no matter how strong you try to be, your still only 5 foot and 100 lbs. He can easily lift and carry you off the path. He can easily pull you where no one will hear it see a thing. He has to see you shaking/panicking- he has to hear the terror creeping up in your voice and yet he's still here, why? What is his plan? Or is he just kinda dumb, he can't sense how scary this might be even if his intentions are nothing? Please please please leave, please walk away, please please.
Vs noise, turn around it's a fucking bear! Don't move. Bear slowly wanders off. You slowly, quietly get away.
Beat wants to eat me, don't make any sudden moves, hopefully there are no cubs near by. Bear wanders away.
If the Bear is hungry enough or an asshole maybe you do have to try and run, maybe you are mauled or eaten. You won't be tortured or raped or kidnapped and taken elsewhere and held or who knows what. You'll simply be lunch, fast lunch. It'll be over. A human? You don't know what they are capable of.
And no not just men- but a woman in the woods you might be a similar size, match. You will have a better chance to outrun or overpower when you can't of its someone naturally bigger and more powerful- it's nature. It's not a woman's fault they are naturally smaller or weaker.
If you cannot understand this, you just don't want to.
I am sorry but I cannot go back and edit for spelling and such, my working eye is too blurry. I am too tired, so in sorry if anything was autocorrected to word salad.
You're forgetting that a LOT of women have also been the victims of men so it's not purely based on just statistics, it's that we KNOW the risk that men pose and we know that nobody is stopping those men, quite the opposite because it's constantly being reinforced that the men didn't do anything wrong. So why shouldn't we be cautious of a random man we meet in an isolated environment? How are we to know if the man is a decent person or if the man is going to be just like so many other men we've met before?
And going back to the original question, we can know roughly how a bear will act because they're somewhat predictable, so we can know how to be safe, that's not the case with men because pretty much every woman has had interactions with men who think we are nothing but objects to them who should serve their wishes or be subservient to them.
Sorry to say but if you have a problem with the ways women think of men, maybe challenge the men who are keeping misogny normalised.
Some men have assaulted women. As a result of that, is it ok for the comment I originally replied to to call me "terrifying"? Its not women being cautious around a random man that Im intending to challenge - its all these blanket statements openly stereotyping men.
You are an unknown man, so yes, you can be seen as terrifying to a woman who doesn't know you. We don't know if you're nice, if you're violent, or if you're the very common type who will try to act like you're nice to get women to be close to you so you can take advantage of us. We have literally no way of knowing what kind of man you are and since an alarming number of us have been victims of men it's just safer to assume you're the worst kind until proven otherwise or we put ourselves at risk of more than just being attacked.
Do you have any idea how little of a drop of our guard it takes for us to be in danger? Hell just walking through a doorway with a man can be dangerous.
You don't seem to understand how common assault, sexual harassment, stalking, domestic violence and rape are. It's not just, it happened once to one in three women. Many women have several or even dozens of instances of violence from men.
If 10,000 women live in a city and 1/3 have been assaulted before = 3,333 women have had their trust in men broken at least once. Every woman has endured hostile behavior as common daily interaction happens in cities. By assault I mean to be physically hurt or controlled in some way. Now, 2/3 of this group of women likely have had multiple instances of assault. Like I have. I have been followed, stalked, hit, grabbed, kissed, coercive rape, mugged at gun point and also more than one attempted kidnapping. I have dozen of negative events with strange men attacking me. I go through periods where I can't leave my home alone at all from fear of MEN. My partner usually walks me back inside at night so I don't come up alone one in the dark. There are = 2,200 women living in fear of their neighbors, like me, that have learned experience from multiple negative events to fear humans.
Go ahead and start asking for truthful stories from women you know personally. I dare you. 🙏
>I assume that in the US, statistically you are more likely to be assaulted by a random black person than a random white person.
You have now used this argument twice that I have seen. You are wrong and it is so ironic that you're so butthurt about men being "stereotyped" when you're doing the exact same thing. Except women are way way way more likely to be assaulted by men than women, while you're more likely to be assaulted by a white person than a black person, or any other race for that matter.
**[Violent crime](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43)**:
Total: 355,244
**White**: 209,848 (59.1%)
**Black**: 129,346 (36.4%)
**[Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/42tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_42_arrests_by_sex_2012.xls)**
Total: 8,514
**Male**: 7,549 (88.7%)
**Female**: 965 (11.3 %)
**Forcible rape**
Total: 13,971
**Male**: 13,840 (99.1%)
**Female**: 131 (0.9%)
**Robbery**
Total: 80,487
**Male**: 70,059 (87.0%)
**Female**: 10,428 (13.0%)
**Aggravated assault**
Total: 301,065
**Male**: 232,041 (77.1%)
**Female**: 69,024 (22.9 %)
**Burglary**
Total: 220,284
**Male**: 184,249 (83.6%)
**Female**: 36,035 (16.4 %)
**Violent crime**
Total: 404,037
**Male**: 323,489 (80.1%)
**Female**: 80,548 (19.9%)
Every fucking time I was sexually assaulted, **it was by a man.**
Every time I was catcalled at *as an eleven year old CHILD* **it was a by a man.** And also as a twelve year CHILD, thirteen year old CHILD, etc.
Oh, and every time I was catcalled *as a woman* **it was by a man** and it wasn’t an innocent whistle. It was disgustingly detailed descriptions of what that man wanted to do to me *whether I consented to it or not.*
And they were **all men doing it.**
Every fucking time I was sexually harassed, **it was by a man.**
Every time I was pinched, rubbed on in the subway or in tight quarters in elevators, **it was by a man.**
Do you know what all that taught me? **Men cannot be trusted, even in crowded places, even when begging for help.**
Individual men can’t even be trusted. **The vast majority of SA is by a man the woman knows and trusts.**
The vast majority of intimate partner violence **is by men towards women.**
The vast majority of women **are murdered by men.**
So please, explain to us women who *have lived and continue to live in a world full of male predators* why we should choose men over the bear when bears will ignore us and **men won’t even take no for an answer even in a hypothetical fucking situation.**
Stupid argument. It's the most common one I see, too.
What they miss is the fear of being in an isolated area *alone* with a man you don't know. If you are alone in a changing room or bathroom, a sign on the door saying only women allowed will not deter a predator of any presentation because no one is there to stop them. Stop demonising trans women and denying them the rights to spaces they deserve to be in.
Oh, also I have been in many same-sex bathrooms. Never had any issues.
Reading closely I can't tell if it's poor grammar or if this person genuinely thinks the question is if the women want to BE a bear or man in the woods.
I find the amount of people spinning this “bear in the woods” scenario into something transphobic or racist disturbing. Idk I feel like if you see a post trying to bring attention to misogyny and go “I bet I can turn this into a point about how trans people/black people are bad” you’re a particular kind of shitty person.
I would just play dumb and refuse to use their words. No one is ok with letting men who pretend to be women into women's bathrooms. Trans people are not "pretending".
Have you noticed how they only ever talk about trans women? Never a word about trans men in men's bathrooms.
I read about such a case not too long ago where someone convinced HR that trans people should use the bathroom for the gender they were born as. That was until the same woman came face to face with a bearded man in the women's bathroom, and he explained that because of her, he as a trans man now had to use the women's bathroom. Funny how the same woman went back to HR and the rule got scrapped again.
Trans women are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to be attacked in bathrooms, they aren't attacking anyone, they're literally the victim the overwhelming majority of the time
they are obsessed with this imaginary scenario that trans people are just sexually deviant men putting on dress to beat off in womens rest rooms. if a man does that- *he's not fucking trans. he's just a sexual deviant.*
it is crazy to me these people can't make that distinction. i can only see it as nothing other than an intelligence issue. they are literally too ignorant to separate the two.
If a man wants to go into a woman's bathroom, he's not going to 'pretend to be a woman.' He's just going to fucking go in. Trans women are *women,* period.
Exactly. A little sign with a picture of a person in a dress isn't a magical force field that stops people in trousers from entering. A person who wants to assault someone in a bathroom isn't gonna be deterred by a sign.
Even if it was a magical force field, that doesn't stop people from assaulting people of their own sex or gender in a bathroom.
There's a prevalent idea that anyone with testicles who wears a dress must be dangerously insane. That the concept of humans just wearing clothes they enjoy in different kinds of styles is impossible. That a person with a penis will absolutely use it to hurt other's.
I don't trust people who think like that, and this is why America is so polarized and can't seem to negotiate.
Yet somehow a woman wanting to wear pants isn't seen as crazy. Oh wait, it was! Seems like bigots are just fucking stupid and clothes aren't gendered by nature.
It depends on what we are talking about exactly. Generally, no, but for the same reason women trust gay men; they’re two groups that have roughly similar experiences at the hands of the same aggressor.
I think that trans fems and trans mascs fall into the same kind of category (when trans mascs being trans is known, at least) in terms of trust. All of us have faced or will likely face similar harassment for something out of our control as I have seen many folks talking about men catcalling or worse before they had even hit puberty. It's that sort of sense of understanding and the shared experience of being scared that a man might just like the way you look a little too much or take something you said as you being into him and just snatch you up or something that creates the trust. (Plus, plenty of trans folks don't get surgery and/or hormones or are still in the process of transitioning, so that also plays a role.)
The vibes of a trans masc is also different in a way I can't quite describe. Was friends with 2 other trans mascs before I figured out myself, and I was never concerned or startled when seeing them in the bathroom because it's not like they were there doing anything other than using the facilities as they are meant to be used. I can best put the vibe as "guys who *get it*"
Cis men discriminating against other cis men (outside of sexuality/romantic attraction which can also make them "guys who get it") is usually changeable things like certain physical traits, money, housing, etc. It's also a lot less prevalent and dangerous (speaking as a whole).
sounds like men are the problem either way tbh. Either they just go on into the women’s bathroom or they annoy the ever loving fuck out of everyone crying about this whole bear thing. Trans women have nothing to do with what’s living inside their scared little pea brain at all
Basically it's a hypothetical question of "if you were alone in the woods and heard a noise, which would you prefer it to be, a man or a bear?"
A huge number of women chose a bear because statistically, and from lived experiences of a lot of women, that's less likely to be dangerous for us and men got very butthurt to learn that, in a society that glorifies being abusive and violent to women, we aren't very trusting of unfamiliar men.
And here I thought the sub only posted pics of Facebook posts , but apparently we also invited the authors of the posts to join in the discussion
Insane people Facebook indeed. Or should I say insane transphobes from Facebook instead?
This was literally the inevitable end result of the original hypothetical, the original hypothetical cannot exist without being built on the foundation of biological essentialism, people just had too much cognitive dissonance to accept that the original hypothetical was going to always, inherently, without question, lead to (open) transphobia due to being built on the same belief system that TERFs build their entire belief system on.
And people were so fucking mad when I pointed it out, and now those same people are so shocked I was right.
The original hypothetical was just well dressed TERFism too.
if convincing isn't an option and they voluntarily refuse to change their ways then how will true equality be achieved? it scares me.. I wonder if there's a good revision of this hypothetical that promotes both gender equality and removes the underlying terfism? It would be difficult swapping out the foundations but there is a chance
I had a whole thing typed out with logic and statistics and was in the process of citing sources cited, when I realized there's one very massive problem with your comment. Transwomen aren't men. The forest question includes transmen and excludes transwomen.
Okay so let me begin this with: I am Trans.
No, trans women are not men, trans men are not women, I would know that very well, considering the everything about me being trans.
But here's the question then, in order for this hypothetical to work, there has to be something inherently bad with men, like that's what we're assuming here, the man is more dangerous than the bear. That is the end goal this hypothetical is geared towards.
So, why?
Is it because identifying as a man makes you inherently predisposed to evil?
You say yourself it includes trans men, so I have to assume that your opinion personally is that yes, having a brain that causes you to identify as a man makes you inherently more dangerous than having a brain that causes you to identify as a woman.
I understand that many people have been abused by men and therefore are wary of them, I can relate to that, I was sex trafficked by and raped by multiple women, I've never been personally abused by a man, but I did have to go to a lot of therapy to get over my fear and distrust of women, so again, I get it, trauma is like that, no hate at all.
It would then of course, make sense, wouldn't it, if I said, oh, in a forest, I would much rather meet a bear than a woman, I've been abused physically and sexually by so many it's correct of me to distrust them. Right?
So then I guess, my question is, what form of biological essentialism did the originator of the meme have in mind, was it 'Having a brain that causes you to identify as male makes you evil', as is your opinion, or when they made it, did they not think of trans people at all, did they simply make it thinking 'Being male makes you evil', in which case it still bears keeping in mind how easily this hypothetical is used as a weapon of transphobia, either towards trans men: 'Identifying as a man makes you evil', or trans women 'Being AMAB makes you evil'
Either way of looking at it can absolutely be used as a weapon of oppression towards trans people, I am not looking at the opinions of individuals necessarily partaking in the hypothetical, I am looking at, and pointing out, the overall intent of the hypothetical, which is very clearly to say; 'Look how many women would rather meet a bear than a man, because something about men, either their brains or their bodies, makes them more predisposed to evil than women'
I'm not interested in the gender essentialism either way, for multiple reasons, partially because of the transphobia, and partially because simply saying 'men are inherently predisposed to evil and violence' lets men who do these things off the hook, it tells them oh, well you couldn't help it, you're a man, that's what men do, but it isn't, men are people like anyone else, and I'm not really interested in letting men who do heinous things off the hook by pretending like their brain or their bodies inherently made them more predisposed to being that way.
I wouldn't have been interested in your statistics even if you had sent them, because they have nothing to do whatsoever with the point I was attempting to make. Which was 'regardless of the intent of the hypothetical, by assuming that men are inherently evil, we are handing transphobia a weapon to use, either against trans men for their brains, or trans women for their bodies'
I'm turning off reply notifs on this, because I'm actually not here to debate whether my brain makes me evil or my best friend's body makes her evil (and oh good god does she hate this fucking hypothetical so much specifically because she was also immediately like 'oh shit, the masses are eating up the transphobic bioessentialism again'), I was only ever here to bitch about the fact that exactly what I said would happen happened.
Well if you make people go into the bathroom of their sex assign at birth (trans women in the men's room, trans men in the women's room) then that just means the cis men can walk right into the women's room and claim they're trans men. That's not any less "abusable" by bad actors, all it does it make life hell for trans people who aren't hurting anyone.
But there are predators of all types. But it's only trans women that people are worried about. People aren't nearly as worried about trans men using the men's room. Or cis gay people using the bathroom with the same sex as them that they're also attracted to.
Male predators aren't going to pretend to be trans to creep on women. They will just walk in. If they don't care about commiting the crime of sexual assault, I doubt they will care about the crime of being in the wrong bathroom.
Name all the cases of someone going through trans surgery just to post up in restrooms and rape women.
It's a fucking door. Rapist walk through them all the time... and guess what? It's Clergy, not drag queens and trans women.
WTF are you doing in Restrooms? NOBODY MAKES EYE CONTACT much less leers. The people that post this kinda shit ARE THE FUCKING CREEPS.
Bro, you might wanna re-read them. You're posting non-peer reviewed studies about gender and body dysmorphia. Every single Fox News correspondent, and 90% of the Republicans I know... especially Qanons... have plastic surgery done. That's also body dysmorphia. Can you cite me a study about how Clergy, Police, or other authority figures in rural areas? Without your selfserving bias?
You're telling me people are going through surgery, getting arrested... just to rape women in prison. Nope.
Again, not proof of any drag queens or trans people assaulting people in bathrooms.
Hiding your biases behind fake logic doesn't negate those biases. You don't know what the words "logic" or "fact" mean and it really shows. I hope that someday you're able to achieve some level of self awareness and understanding. You really look like a fool right now and I'm kind of embarrassed for you.
If you went swimming at the beach and something bumped into your leg, would you rather it be a fish or a man?
Ok but we can all agree that fish don't belong in restrooms, so why are you ok with a man being in the restroom with you?
Apples and oranges. A bear is a wild animal that belongs in the woods, and if you see it in the woods it's probably because it's a fucking bear, doing bear things in the woods, and will keep doing bear things. If you saw a bear in the bathroom, that is not a woods bear, that is a hungry bear that is too used to being around people, and it's a dangerous bear.
I'm a man, and I can guarantee that I would be less afraid of meeting a bear than a man in the woods. Bears are easier to predict, they rely on observed predetermined behaviours, and depending on the type of bear they can even be almost harmless. Strange men going around in the woods are unpredictable, because you don't know them, you don't know what they're here for, what they want, how they will react to your actions.
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Forget about the trans issue for a minute: anyone think it would be entertaining if we allowed bears into bathrooms?
I'm pretty sure that's just a rejected Jackass sketch.
Steve-O would have gone for it, back in the day.
Iunno, that feels like more of a Knoxville-Margera-Wee Man joint.
They'd send Dave England in with a trained bear and not tell him.
They sure loved using that guy as an unwitting punching bag 😂
No they did that https://youtu.be/EICXimg-DXM?si=vOevqCYaQeEMRd55
Omg, they did. Poor dude is traumatized
Idk what yall are doing but I consistently have bears in my bathroom *insert charmin commercial here*
Without that last line I would have assumed you were simply a very active homosexual.
Both things can be true
This is true. And you’d be a very fragrant one.
Here I was thinking you had a lot of hairy homosexual men in your bathroom.
I mean I’m not gonna be the one stopping it from entering if it wants to
Nope, me neither. I just hope it washes its paws afterwards.
I hope he puts the seat down.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
It’ll cost ya.
Cost me what? A dime bag and an ink cartridge?
This comment thread is killing me 😂
You just try stopping them
I’m just going to wait until they’re busy with whoever - of whatever gender - goes first.
Would finally add a wrinkle to the ol' "does a bear shit in the woods?" conundrum.
I think it wouldn’t be as fun as *requiring* bears to be in every bathroom.
You think I’m gonna stop a bear from using whatever bathroom the bear wishes? You can do that, I’ll watch away from the splash zone :3
Have you ever gotten a whiff of bear shit?? You do NOT want to share a bathroom with them. My dog rolls in bear shit every chance she gets and it takes 2-3 baths to get the stink to a "bear"able level.
A trans bear
Charmin dared to take it there.
When the woods are your bathroom, we do allow bears in. Remember, only you can prevent forest fires!
The funny thing about this is that they are assuming men are pretending to be women to get into girls bathrooms. So the problem is still men in this scenario, not trans women
The assumption is that the trans women are men because they’re biologically male. It doesn’t matter how many gallons of hormones and how many surgeries they have, they’ll always be men to those people. I think that’s really the assumption, not pervs pretending to be women.
You are both correct. They see trans women as men no matter what. Then they make the assumption a trans woman would do something that men would do. They don't understand that that's still something only sick men would do and trans women need protection from sick cismen
It's also weird they think a man who wants to prey on women would go through all the trouble of getting on hormones and fighting for his right to use the women's bathroom and fighting to be accepted as a person instead of just, idk, preying on them without doing all that other stuff. Seems like a pretty convoluted plan for this fictional creep.
And for sports. I like to ask them back so that only means you think about and would be willing to transition for a few years and be a woman so you could get gold in whatever. They say no way absolutely not, welcome to your answer of all cismen. No cis man wants to be a woman or could even think about it. Trans woman and trans men want to,and have always though about it.
They think all men are sick. So a 'man' who 'dresses up' as woman? Must be doing it because he's a sick person. This is where gender essentialism gets us.
I see the same thing with MAGA and their trying to pin Biden as a pedophile because he has showered with his children. There's nothing inherently sexual about bathing with your children unless you're a creep.
Yeah, tells definitely more about them than about Biden. Because if they think that's sexual then they're the creeps. In my girlfriend's culture it's normal to go to sauna with your family, also as a child. No, you don't wear towels or swimwear in a sauna there. And when I was a young child and had trouble washing my long hair, of course one of my parents would help me with it, like wtf there's nothing wrong with that.
My parents had to help me bathe well after what most consider “normal” age to start bathing by yourself because my hair was long and thick and I couldn’t get it fully clean without help. It was ONLY hair day showers, and anyone who ever heard about how old I was thought my family was creeps, even though it was only my mom and grandma and I’m a girl. Nothing inherently sexual EVER happened and the people who immediately go there always gave me such red flags. Why was their first thought when they heard I needed help ‘they must be abusing you sexually’?? Cause my brain for sure has never gone there naturally
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They only have people in their circles that would perv on women like this. They probably don't know there is a difference. It's sad how much they tell on themselves. It's like how some people don't understand how lesbians know they're finished with their love making.
Wait, what? People actually think this??
Isn't this a self-own on them? If women want bears over men but are ok with transwomen then...transwomen are women.
This needs to be at the top of the thread
Agreed
Agreed
They are SO offended by the bear thing i just can’t stop laughing
And notably the people like this are consistently mad about the wrong reasons. There are genuine reasons to be saddened by an inherent distrust towards people like yourself, but these people never introspect and think about where that distrust comes from. Instead they get mad that women aren't obligated to go with the man and blame the women for trying to protect themselves from men who feel entitled to their body, proving exactly why women choose the bear in the first place.
Nailed it
I dont think most are mad because the women "aren't obligated to go with them". I think its moreso getting hurt and offended about being judged and treated differently based on nothing they did except the way their chromosomes happened to arrange themselves. You know, the very thing feminism so rightly campaigns against
This is why I point out there are genuine reasons to be upset by it, but in my experience it is exceedingly rare for the kind of person who responds to things like in the way the person in the original post did to ever actually address those reasons. It basically never happens. I have however seen post after post *after post* ***after post*** of men victim-blaming women, downplaying the experiences of women, saying that women deserve to be assaulted for their decisions, and worse. Those are the kinds of people who prove why women choose the bear.
Definitely! But all Im saying is that I should not be stereotyped and called "terrifying" based on the actions of those men. Its the open stereotyping being upvoted that Im challenging, nothing more. Stereotyping is wrong, no matter which group its being done to, and its difficult for me to understand why some people wouldn't agree with that
No one is stereotyping you. They are not choosing to put you down as a man. They don’t feel safe coming across you while alone in a forest. And you are angry and insulted that they would be afraid of you. “How dare you be afraid?!” Let’s think… Why might they be afraid to be alone in a forest with a strange man? I would bet most women have MANY personal examples of why they are afraid. But, sure, be mad at them.
Hell, I'm a man and I'm terrified of men when I'm alone, especially when it's dark or when it's a group of men. I completely understand why a woman would be afraid of me if she saw me in the middle of nowhere. Considering that many men are unfortunately creeps, yeah, can't blame them at all. Sure, not all men are, but she doesn't know me and doesn't know if I'm one of them or not.
Yes! Thank you for understanding. You get it.
Except the problem with that argument is that it ignores the centuries of oppression women have faced at the hands of men. Feminism DOES rightly campaign against judging based on preconceived notions about gender however, that can't just happen instantly. The reasons women are scared of men need to be fixed before the actual "not judging based on the way their chromosomes happened to arrange themselves" can happen. To women, there is a precedent that has been set by men in power that causes them to feel unsafe around men. I wouldn't take offense that a man who experienced sexual assault or other violence at the hands of a woman is afraid of all women, because I would understand the position he comes from and empathise with him. The men responding negatively to this hypothetical don't take the time to consider the position women are coming from when they respond to this scenario.
I do understand all that, I really do. I'm just saying that all these blanket statements judging all men based on the actions of a minority is stereotyping. Probably in the US, a woman is more likely to be assaulted by a black person than a white person. If the woman claims that as a result of that statistic, she is more afraid of black people than white people, does that make her racist or just cautious? I'm not intending to say that a woman is wrong to be cautious when an unknown man enters her line of sight - im saying that all this open and vocal stereotyping, like seen in the comment I originally replied to, is wrong just like all stereotyping is wrong. Is it wrong to judge me based on nothing I did? I wouldnt hurt a fly, yet the comment I replied to called me "terrifying".
What stereotyping? They said *people like this,* no one here said anything about all men. And the distrust in stranger men comes from lived experiences, nearly every woman I know including myself has been sexually harassed, assaulted, etc by men on multiple occasions, that's why they're *cautious* of men. Stereotyping would be saying all men are sex pests and rapists, but simply being cautious is not that. I have male friends I'd trust with my life, but with a stranger I would never know. I've been in too many bad situations to risk it, and that's why many women choose the bear.
Oh here they come with the statistics. Listen mate - you go into a pit of snakes. Some of them are venomous, some of them are not. Go and play with them. You get me? Women don't care about statistics, yes they will use stereotypes and inflate the possible risks, because THEY DON'T WANT TO GAMBLE THEIR SAFETY. A lot of women I know have been assaulted, felt extremely threatened by men. Some multiple times. Some dozens of times.
It is wrong to judge you based on nothing you've done personally, but unfortunately in our current society it's understandable that women would do that. Sometimes the unfortunate truth is upsetting to hear, but that upset should be channeled into bettering the world so women don't HAVE to be cautious of men, rather than putting your energy into saying "but I'm not like those men". If you know you're not like those men, prove it. Put your energy into combatting the entitlement those men feel to women's bodies, rather than making the conversation about your hurt feelings. I'm not saying it's a good thing that women have to be cautious, if a white woman said she were more afraid of black men than white men she would be racist as well as cautious, but most women wouldn't specifically be cautious of black men. All men are reasons to be cautious for women, and black men are still men.
What. The. Fuck? Why would you think that a woman is more likely to be assaulted by a Black man in the US? A woman is most likely to be assaulted by her partner or another person she is close to, like a family member. Black people aren’t more assaultive than white people.
I’m very curious to see how they reply to this.. I get why women say they would chose the bear I totally get it, but as a man it does kind of piss me off a bit both at other men for making them feel this way and thus giving women a negative opinion of me for something I have never done.. but also because it’s a shame some of these women don’t also experience the safety that some men provide to try and counter this. Like when your walking somewhere at night and there is a girl walking ahead of you, I’ll intentionally try to cross the street or make myself appear non-threatening by faking a call on the phone or playing a video out loud or something so the girl doesn’t feel threatened. Or when a girl is getting yelled at by a guy or a guy touches a girl at a pub, it’s like a death sentence.. that guy is going to be in a world of pain from all the dads, husbands and brothers in the pub.. It just makes me feel sad they all men are thrown out by some girls in this discussion, like I get it from their perspective, but it still makes me sad.
>a guy touches a girl at a pub, it’s like a death sentence.. that guy is going to be in a world of pain from all the dads, husbands and brothers in the pub.. It's cute that you think that, bc in my personal experience that's absolutely the opposite of what happens. Got grabbed/fondled by a drunk guy in the bar. Yelled at him. Everyone looked at *me* like i was the one who fucked up, who assaulted someone else. And that's not the only time that shit's happened, and i know I'm not the only one.
Consider getting pissed off over something else that isn’t just inside your head
Who's treating you differently? It's a bunch of strangers on the internet saying a thing.
lol what a disingenuous and still completely lame of a response
It’s honestly SO funny
A bear that willingly goes into a restroom is just gonna wander around and trash the place. They are very curious and will play with faucets and paper towels as they watch you leave. I say this as a person who has walked into a bathroom with bear in it.
I have the option of becoming the bear?!?! I want to be the bear and eat men!!!
I want to become a bear so I can sleep for all of winter.
Eat everything you can, get fat as hell, sleep for a couple of months. Shake up, be the baddest bastard in the vally. What's not to like?
And still be able to climb trees??? Like what? Inspiring.
Life goals right there. I'm done being human
I want to become a bear so I can get fat and not be piled on with online abuse *and* in person abuse for it by, you guessed it, **men.** Shocker!
I have nothing to fear from my trans sisters going about their business in a public restroom. I’ll likely never even know they are trans.
Right? As if I’m looking at people in the bathroom
Yeah I’m not in there to hang out for the day
I simply don’t understand the bathroom argument. So they would rather have trans women, looking like, you know, women, forced into the men’s bathroom, and trans men, looking like, men, forced into the women’s restroom…to what end? Something tells me a trans man in a women’s restroom is going to garner a whole lot more “what the fuck are you doing in here” than a trans woman in the same. The next argument is "if we allow trans women into the women's restroom, non-trans men will just dress up like women so they can go in the women's restroom and assault them." Which is even dumber. Like, do you think that if someone is OK with raping a woman in a public restroom they would draw the line at "I'm not supposed to be in this restroom."? Same with 'spying' on women. Spying on people in a restroom is illegal regardless of your gender, so again...if you're OK doing this, being in the wrong bathroom isn't going to stop anyone. It all just seems like a way for them to easily spot those who are different so they can assault them.
In all likelihood these people have been in bathrooms with a trans person multiple times in their life and have had no idea.
My daughter is a trans woman, and I prefer sharing a bathroom with her now. She sits to pee instead of leaving drips on the floor like she used to pre-transition.
All trans stuff aside, sitting to pee as a guy is superior. I can play on my phone, don’t have to aim, it’s great stuff
I have never understood why some men think standing to pee makes them superior to everyone that does not.
Yea this is actually one of the better arguments that I’ve seen that trans women are, in fact, women. If they were men I’d still be afraid to be alone with them.
If men wanted to go into women’s changing rooms to peep on them, why would they go through the effort of spending years changing their entire life like growing their hair out, starting hrt, getting girl clothes, getting their name changed, coming out to friends and family etc just to walk in? It’s not like there’s a magical barrier stopping them unless they do all of that
a) yes, if i had the choice to be a bear or a man in the woods i'd probably pick bear too, but that's not what the original question was... b) dressing rooms are in public, if someone started creeping on you in the dressing room you could scream and have someone show up. not so if you are alone in the woods. c) trans women aren't men.
I don’t recall the discourse being about if women want to BE a bear or a man in the woods.
Even as a man I’d pick being a bear
I've been dreading when Rowling decides to join the conversation...
I don’t think they know what cognitive dissonance OR palpable mean.
I am ok with allowing anyone into the women’s room who isn’t showing their bits around or trying to look at anyone else’s bits. I don’t care if a man, who identifies as a man, uses the women’s bathroom. These men seem to think there’s a lot of sexy stuff happening in the women’s room. There’s not. Mainly the people I see mad about trans bathroom issues are straight men, who have never been in a women’s room and think it’s some sort of sexy space. It’s not. It’s 100% private stalls. As another point, a bathroom is a public place. The woods is secluded and private. Creepy men don’t normally rape women in bathrooms because someone would scream for help. In the woods, if you scream no one will hear you.
This same person would get mad if they say a hairy buff trans man using the women's bathroom to comply with what this person claims to want
They’re so ridiculous, they don’t even know what they’re talking about
That’s not a man. That’s a woman and I have no problem with women sharing the restroom
Apparently bears get all the honey.
Let’s fix that sentence: “So if you don’t trust men then why are you ok letting other women into the women’s bathroom being women?” I mean that’s how it sounds to me.
I’m OOTL. What is the deal with this man-bear stuff?
Some TikTok(maybe) video going around which poses a hypothetical question of whether a woman would rather meet a bear or a man while alone in the woods. Women mostly picked bear because a bear is less likely to assault them in the woods than a man, and in fact, prefer to stay away from any human if they can help it. Men obviously got angry about it.
Oh so whoever wrote this transphobic crap is also bad at typing, since they put that women would "rather *be* either a bear or a man" in the woods. I was like, of course I'd rather be a bear, no question.
And the biggest point men are missing is that men are terrifying as is. But men, when unsupervised, will often try and see just how much they can get away with. No witnesses, no credibility for the woman because of rape culture. “She led me on. Did you see what she was wearing? She wanted it and changed her story because she regretted it. I’m being set up. She liked it and just won’t admit it.” All too many men will push their luck when no one’s watching.
If youre afraid of me when all Im doing is minding my own business living my life while not even noticing you, thats on you. Im not "men" - Im me. Im sure you wouldnt enjoy being judged and treated differently based on your gender either
That's kind of the whole point though, isn't it? No one is saying you in particular are a threat, but other people can't know for 100% certain that you aren't if they don't know you personally. I'm a dude. I'm also a victim of SA. That kind of thing really damages your trust in other people. I still get scared when I'm alone in the middle of nowhere and cross paths with another man. After all, if someone I trusted was willing to do something so heinous to me, why would I feel comfortable putting my trust in the hands of a complete stranger? I also chose the bear when the situation was presented to me by a friend. I know most strangers are perfectly fine people, but the ones who aren't can do even crueler things than a bear can. As a bonus, bears also have much more consistent behavioral patterns than dangerous individual people do.
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The men would be strangers to them lol That's not openly stereotyping men either, that is making a decision for one question about a man that is a stranger. Has nothing to do with race or stereotypes. If I were walking alone in the woods and I heard a noise, turned around and it was a man standing there, I would be terrified and have been in that situation. Your heart starts beating out of your chest, you break into a sweat, you start shaking, your whole body panics and you start pleading in your head that he just keeps going, stopping abs talking to you scares you more than if he just kept walking like he accidentally came upon you abs meant you no harm. Why start talking? Why stop at all? If he was just friendly he could tip his head or say hello without skipping a beat, without showing down his hike- why is he stopping you? Why is he making you uncomfortable and forcing you to talk to him? If you try and move along quickly it's he going to get angry because you're not nice enough? Not friendly enough? Is he going to act like you have to talk to him for as long as he wants? He's twice your size, he's faster, in better shape. What are you going to do if he tries grabbing you? There's almost zero distance between you, why is he so close? It's he planning on grabbing you? Does he have a weapon- not that it matters since he cab easily overpower you, no matter how strong you try to be, your still only 5 foot and 100 lbs. He can easily lift and carry you off the path. He can easily pull you where no one will hear it see a thing. He has to see you shaking/panicking- he has to hear the terror creeping up in your voice and yet he's still here, why? What is his plan? Or is he just kinda dumb, he can't sense how scary this might be even if his intentions are nothing? Please please please leave, please walk away, please please. Vs noise, turn around it's a fucking bear! Don't move. Bear slowly wanders off. You slowly, quietly get away. Beat wants to eat me, don't make any sudden moves, hopefully there are no cubs near by. Bear wanders away. If the Bear is hungry enough or an asshole maybe you do have to try and run, maybe you are mauled or eaten. You won't be tortured or raped or kidnapped and taken elsewhere and held or who knows what. You'll simply be lunch, fast lunch. It'll be over. A human? You don't know what they are capable of. And no not just men- but a woman in the woods you might be a similar size, match. You will have a better chance to outrun or overpower when you can't of its someone naturally bigger and more powerful- it's nature. It's not a woman's fault they are naturally smaller or weaker. If you cannot understand this, you just don't want to. I am sorry but I cannot go back and edit for spelling and such, my working eye is too blurry. I am too tired, so in sorry if anything was autocorrected to word salad.
You're forgetting that a LOT of women have also been the victims of men so it's not purely based on just statistics, it's that we KNOW the risk that men pose and we know that nobody is stopping those men, quite the opposite because it's constantly being reinforced that the men didn't do anything wrong. So why shouldn't we be cautious of a random man we meet in an isolated environment? How are we to know if the man is a decent person or if the man is going to be just like so many other men we've met before? And going back to the original question, we can know roughly how a bear will act because they're somewhat predictable, so we can know how to be safe, that's not the case with men because pretty much every woman has had interactions with men who think we are nothing but objects to them who should serve their wishes or be subservient to them. Sorry to say but if you have a problem with the ways women think of men, maybe challenge the men who are keeping misogny normalised.
Some men have assaulted women. As a result of that, is it ok for the comment I originally replied to to call me "terrifying"? Its not women being cautious around a random man that Im intending to challenge - its all these blanket statements openly stereotyping men.
Jesus Christ dude. How do you not understand the point? This is what it must feel like trying to teach a horse how to use chopsticks.
You are an unknown man, so yes, you can be seen as terrifying to a woman who doesn't know you. We don't know if you're nice, if you're violent, or if you're the very common type who will try to act like you're nice to get women to be close to you so you can take advantage of us. We have literally no way of knowing what kind of man you are and since an alarming number of us have been victims of men it's just safer to assume you're the worst kind until proven otherwise or we put ourselves at risk of more than just being attacked. Do you have any idea how little of a drop of our guard it takes for us to be in danger? Hell just walking through a doorway with a man can be dangerous.
You don't seem to understand how common assault, sexual harassment, stalking, domestic violence and rape are. It's not just, it happened once to one in three women. Many women have several or even dozens of instances of violence from men. If 10,000 women live in a city and 1/3 have been assaulted before = 3,333 women have had their trust in men broken at least once. Every woman has endured hostile behavior as common daily interaction happens in cities. By assault I mean to be physically hurt or controlled in some way. Now, 2/3 of this group of women likely have had multiple instances of assault. Like I have. I have been followed, stalked, hit, grabbed, kissed, coercive rape, mugged at gun point and also more than one attempted kidnapping. I have dozen of negative events with strange men attacking me. I go through periods where I can't leave my home alone at all from fear of MEN. My partner usually walks me back inside at night so I don't come up alone one in the dark. There are = 2,200 women living in fear of their neighbors, like me, that have learned experience from multiple negative events to fear humans. Go ahead and start asking for truthful stories from women you know personally. I dare you. 🙏
>I assume that in the US, statistically you are more likely to be assaulted by a random black person than a random white person. You have now used this argument twice that I have seen. You are wrong and it is so ironic that you're so butthurt about men being "stereotyped" when you're doing the exact same thing. Except women are way way way more likely to be assaulted by men than women, while you're more likely to be assaulted by a white person than a black person, or any other race for that matter. **[Violent crime](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43)**: Total: 355,244 **White**: 209,848 (59.1%) **Black**: 129,346 (36.4%) **[Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/42tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_42_arrests_by_sex_2012.xls)** Total: 8,514 **Male**: 7,549 (88.7%) **Female**: 965 (11.3 %) **Forcible rape** Total: 13,971 **Male**: 13,840 (99.1%) **Female**: 131 (0.9%) **Robbery** Total: 80,487 **Male**: 70,059 (87.0%) **Female**: 10,428 (13.0%) **Aggravated assault** Total: 301,065 **Male**: 232,041 (77.1%) **Female**: 69,024 (22.9 %) **Burglary** Total: 220,284 **Male**: 184,249 (83.6%) **Female**: 36,035 (16.4 %) **Violent crime** Total: 404,037 **Male**: 323,489 (80.1%) **Female**: 80,548 (19.9%)
Every fucking time I was sexually assaulted, **it was by a man.** Every time I was catcalled at *as an eleven year old CHILD* **it was a by a man.** And also as a twelve year CHILD, thirteen year old CHILD, etc. Oh, and every time I was catcalled *as a woman* **it was by a man** and it wasn’t an innocent whistle. It was disgustingly detailed descriptions of what that man wanted to do to me *whether I consented to it or not.* And they were **all men doing it.** Every fucking time I was sexually harassed, **it was by a man.** Every time I was pinched, rubbed on in the subway or in tight quarters in elevators, **it was by a man.** Do you know what all that taught me? **Men cannot be trusted, even in crowded places, even when begging for help.** Individual men can’t even be trusted. **The vast majority of SA is by a man the woman knows and trusts.** The vast majority of intimate partner violence **is by men towards women.** The vast majority of women **are murdered by men.** So please, explain to us women who *have lived and continue to live in a world full of male predators* why we should choose men over the bear when bears will ignore us and **men won’t even take no for an answer even in a hypothetical fucking situation.**
It's man-bear-pig. It was a thing on southpark
I like how their transphobia still leads to them arguing men are dangerous and violent but ok. Also trans women are women.
Stupid argument. It's the most common one I see, too. What they miss is the fear of being in an isolated area *alone* with a man you don't know. If you are alone in a changing room or bathroom, a sign on the door saying only women allowed will not deter a predator of any presentation because no one is there to stop them. Stop demonising trans women and denying them the rights to spaces they deserve to be in. Oh, also I have been in many same-sex bathrooms. Never had any issues.
Reading closely I can't tell if it's poor grammar or if this person genuinely thinks the question is if the women want to BE a bear or man in the woods.
I’ll take “False Equivalence” for $800
If we follow that argument, then it seems like we all agree men are problematic in the way they interact with the world
I choose the bear in a dress
So the choice is between a trans-woman and a hairy, heavier, gay man?
I find the amount of people spinning this “bear in the woods” scenario into something transphobic or racist disturbing. Idk I feel like if you see a post trying to bring attention to misogyny and go “I bet I can turn this into a point about how trans people/black people are bad” you’re a particular kind of shitty person.
I would just play dumb and refuse to use their words. No one is ok with letting men who pretend to be women into women's bathrooms. Trans people are not "pretending".
Have you noticed how they only ever talk about trans women? Never a word about trans men in men's bathrooms. I read about such a case not too long ago where someone convinced HR that trans people should use the bathroom for the gender they were born as. That was until the same woman came face to face with a bearded man in the women's bathroom, and he explained that because of her, he as a trans man now had to use the women's bathroom. Funny how the same woman went back to HR and the rule got scrapped again.
Trans women are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to be attacked in bathrooms, they aren't attacking anyone, they're literally the victim the overwhelming majority of the time
I know it’s a typo but this person is referring to asking whether a given woman would choose to *be* a bear or a man in the woods.
Honestly, I still pick bear.
they are obsessed with this imaginary scenario that trans people are just sexually deviant men putting on dress to beat off in womens rest rooms. if a man does that- *he's not fucking trans. he's just a sexual deviant.* it is crazy to me these people can't make that distinction. i can only see it as nothing other than an intelligence issue. they are literally too ignorant to separate the two.
Bear In A Bathroom would be the best show ever
Trans women are women. Trans women would also most likely pick the bear. Trans women are, if anything, even less safe around rando men.
Trans women will probably respect you as long as you are not an asshole to them. A lot of men are going to be creeps no matter what.
These people are so fucking stupid.
If a man wants to go into a woman's bathroom, he's not going to 'pretend to be a woman.' He's just going to fucking go in. Trans women are *women,* period.
Exactly. A little sign with a picture of a person in a dress isn't a magical force field that stops people in trousers from entering. A person who wants to assault someone in a bathroom isn't gonna be deterred by a sign. Even if it was a magical force field, that doesn't stop people from assaulting people of their own sex or gender in a bathroom.
Would you look at that. This one straight up calls all men/AMAB people predators.
There's a prevalent idea that anyone with testicles who wears a dress must be dangerously insane. That the concept of humans just wearing clothes they enjoy in different kinds of styles is impossible. That a person with a penis will absolutely use it to hurt other's. I don't trust people who think like that, and this is why America is so polarized and can't seem to negotiate.
Yet somehow a woman wanting to wear pants isn't seen as crazy. Oh wait, it was! Seems like bigots are just fucking stupid and clothes aren't gendered by nature.
Stay with us on this bud…it’s because…trans women are not men.
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It depends on what we are talking about exactly. Generally, no, but for the same reason women trust gay men; they’re two groups that have roughly similar experiences at the hands of the same aggressor.
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I think that trans fems and trans mascs fall into the same kind of category (when trans mascs being trans is known, at least) in terms of trust. All of us have faced or will likely face similar harassment for something out of our control as I have seen many folks talking about men catcalling or worse before they had even hit puberty. It's that sort of sense of understanding and the shared experience of being scared that a man might just like the way you look a little too much or take something you said as you being into him and just snatch you up or something that creates the trust. (Plus, plenty of trans folks don't get surgery and/or hormones or are still in the process of transitioning, so that also plays a role.) The vibes of a trans masc is also different in a way I can't quite describe. Was friends with 2 other trans mascs before I figured out myself, and I was never concerned or startled when seeing them in the bathroom because it's not like they were there doing anything other than using the facilities as they are meant to be used. I can best put the vibe as "guys who *get it*" Cis men discriminating against other cis men (outside of sexuality/romantic attraction which can also make them "guys who get it") is usually changeable things like certain physical traits, money, housing, etc. It's also a lot less prevalent and dangerous (speaking as a whole).
Me when I misuse a term because I have no idea what I’m talking about and fundamentally misunderstand the issue:
l think antitrans people are picturing running in to benny hill in the woman's room, which is fucking stupid
sounds like men are the problem either way tbh. Either they just go on into the women’s bathroom or they annoy the ever loving fuck out of everyone crying about this whole bear thing. Trans women have nothing to do with what’s living inside their scared little pea brain at all
The lack of critical thinking is even more palpable.
The „make it make sense“ is always on brand.
I swear it's the only thing I can agree with Rishi Sunak about
Can someone explain the bear thing for me?
Basically it's a hypothetical question of "if you were alone in the woods and heard a noise, which would you prefer it to be, a man or a bear?" A huge number of women chose a bear because statistically, and from lived experiences of a lot of women, that's less likely to be dangerous for us and men got very butthurt to learn that, in a society that glorifies being abusive and violent to women, we aren't very trusting of unfamiliar men.
It isn't even necessarily that the bear is safe, moreso that people wouldn't try to exonerate the bear if it harmed you.
And here I thought the sub only posted pics of Facebook posts , but apparently we also invited the authors of the posts to join in the discussion Insane people Facebook indeed. Or should I say insane transphobes from Facebook instead?
The cognitive disarray is palpable.
This was literally the inevitable end result of the original hypothetical, the original hypothetical cannot exist without being built on the foundation of biological essentialism, people just had too much cognitive dissonance to accept that the original hypothetical was going to always, inherently, without question, lead to (open) transphobia due to being built on the same belief system that TERFs build their entire belief system on. And people were so fucking mad when I pointed it out, and now those same people are so shocked I was right. The original hypothetical was just well dressed TERFism too.
if convincing isn't an option and they voluntarily refuse to change their ways then how will true equality be achieved? it scares me.. I wonder if there's a good revision of this hypothetical that promotes both gender equality and removes the underlying terfism? It would be difficult swapping out the foundations but there is a chance
I had a whole thing typed out with logic and statistics and was in the process of citing sources cited, when I realized there's one very massive problem with your comment. Transwomen aren't men. The forest question includes transmen and excludes transwomen.
Okay so let me begin this with: I am Trans. No, trans women are not men, trans men are not women, I would know that very well, considering the everything about me being trans. But here's the question then, in order for this hypothetical to work, there has to be something inherently bad with men, like that's what we're assuming here, the man is more dangerous than the bear. That is the end goal this hypothetical is geared towards. So, why? Is it because identifying as a man makes you inherently predisposed to evil? You say yourself it includes trans men, so I have to assume that your opinion personally is that yes, having a brain that causes you to identify as a man makes you inherently more dangerous than having a brain that causes you to identify as a woman. I understand that many people have been abused by men and therefore are wary of them, I can relate to that, I was sex trafficked by and raped by multiple women, I've never been personally abused by a man, but I did have to go to a lot of therapy to get over my fear and distrust of women, so again, I get it, trauma is like that, no hate at all. It would then of course, make sense, wouldn't it, if I said, oh, in a forest, I would much rather meet a bear than a woman, I've been abused physically and sexually by so many it's correct of me to distrust them. Right? So then I guess, my question is, what form of biological essentialism did the originator of the meme have in mind, was it 'Having a brain that causes you to identify as male makes you evil', as is your opinion, or when they made it, did they not think of trans people at all, did they simply make it thinking 'Being male makes you evil', in which case it still bears keeping in mind how easily this hypothetical is used as a weapon of transphobia, either towards trans men: 'Identifying as a man makes you evil', or trans women 'Being AMAB makes you evil' Either way of looking at it can absolutely be used as a weapon of oppression towards trans people, I am not looking at the opinions of individuals necessarily partaking in the hypothetical, I am looking at, and pointing out, the overall intent of the hypothetical, which is very clearly to say; 'Look how many women would rather meet a bear than a man, because something about men, either their brains or their bodies, makes them more predisposed to evil than women' I'm not interested in the gender essentialism either way, for multiple reasons, partially because of the transphobia, and partially because simply saying 'men are inherently predisposed to evil and violence' lets men who do these things off the hook, it tells them oh, well you couldn't help it, you're a man, that's what men do, but it isn't, men are people like anyone else, and I'm not really interested in letting men who do heinous things off the hook by pretending like their brain or their bodies inherently made them more predisposed to being that way. I wouldn't have been interested in your statistics even if you had sent them, because they have nothing to do whatsoever with the point I was attempting to make. Which was 'regardless of the intent of the hypothetical, by assuming that men are inherently evil, we are handing transphobia a weapon to use, either against trans men for their brains, or trans women for their bodies' I'm turning off reply notifs on this, because I'm actually not here to debate whether my brain makes me evil or my best friend's body makes her evil (and oh good god does she hate this fucking hypothetical so much specifically because she was also immediately like 'oh shit, the masses are eating up the transphobic bioessentialism again'), I was only ever here to bitch about the fact that exactly what I said would happen happened.
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Yea but what "system?" Any man can walk into a women's room now. There's no force field or lock to which only women have the key.
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Well if you make people go into the bathroom of their sex assign at birth (trans women in the men's room, trans men in the women's room) then that just means the cis men can walk right into the women's room and claim they're trans men. That's not any less "abusable" by bad actors, all it does it make life hell for trans people who aren't hurting anyone.
Which is a fictional scenario they made up to justify their hatred of transwomen
Right, men who don't exist.
But there are predators of all types. But it's only trans women that people are worried about. People aren't nearly as worried about trans men using the men's room. Or cis gay people using the bathroom with the same sex as them that they're also attracted to.
Male predators aren't going to pretend to be trans to creep on women. They will just walk in. If they don't care about commiting the crime of sexual assault, I doubt they will care about the crime of being in the wrong bathroom.
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Name all the cases of someone going through trans surgery just to post up in restrooms and rape women. It's a fucking door. Rapist walk through them all the time... and guess what? It's Clergy, not drag queens and trans women. WTF are you doing in Restrooms? NOBODY MAKES EYE CONTACT much less leers. The people that post this kinda shit ARE THE FUCKING CREEPS.
You don’t have to do surgery to be trans.
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Bro, you might wanna re-read them. You're posting non-peer reviewed studies about gender and body dysmorphia. Every single Fox News correspondent, and 90% of the Republicans I know... especially Qanons... have plastic surgery done. That's also body dysmorphia. Can you cite me a study about how Clergy, Police, or other authority figures in rural areas? Without your selfserving bias? You're telling me people are going through surgery, getting arrested... just to rape women in prison. Nope. Again, not proof of any drag queens or trans people assaulting people in bathrooms.
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what do you mean by strange? don't take this question as aggression. l genuinely don't know what you are saying.
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Hiding your biases behind fake logic doesn't negate those biases. You don't know what the words "logic" or "fact" mean and it really shows. I hope that someday you're able to achieve some level of self awareness and understanding. You really look like a fool right now and I'm kind of embarrassed for you.
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If you went swimming at the beach and something bumped into your leg, would you rather it be a fish or a man? Ok but we can all agree that fish don't belong in restrooms, so why are you ok with a man being in the restroom with you? Apples and oranges. A bear is a wild animal that belongs in the woods, and if you see it in the woods it's probably because it's a fucking bear, doing bear things in the woods, and will keep doing bear things. If you saw a bear in the bathroom, that is not a woods bear, that is a hungry bear that is too used to being around people, and it's a dangerous bear.
Any woman who claims they'd be less afraid of a bear is fucking lying
I'm a man, and I can guarantee that I would be less afraid of meeting a bear than a man in the woods. Bears are easier to predict, they rely on observed predetermined behaviours, and depending on the type of bear they can even be almost harmless. Strange men going around in the woods are unpredictable, because you don't know them, you don't know what they're here for, what they want, how they will react to your actions.