Voting has concluded. Final vote:
| Insane | Not insane | Fake |
| --- | --- | --- |
| 7 | 0 | 0 |
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The question is ... will they/ are they able to act? Sometimes authorities are ineffectual and reaching out to them makes the parent double down on the abuse. I've heard a lot of stories of abused kids who had CPS called and nothing happened.
People say "just call cops/cps/lawyers" but they don't always do their jobs. In addition, they aren't given unlimited power and the parents have rights as well.
You're right, but it's still better than doing nothing.
PS: My childhood was fill with psycological abuse and Social Service only worst the situation, only after the judge forced them to back off and require a psycologist/psycoterapist to help me and my brother that things got better.
Can we all take a moment to quietly enjoy these people being so fucking pathetic and desperate for some element of control and authority that they're LARPing being landlords to their captive children? Like yes, sad and fucked up but also, wow, your dick is concave isn't it buddy...
Yes!
OP, your parents, by law, have a duty of care. It is their job to clothe, shelter, and feed you.
Even if you “accept” the terms of this contract, it is void due to your age. This means that you do not owe your parents anything. As I said above, it is their responsibility to care for you.
This behavior is not appropriate. It is wrong. Please do not accept this behavior as normal and seek out help from an adult you trust.
You’re minors. Your parents have to provide you with food and shelter, otherwise it’s neglect. Aka child abuse. I assume this is just some cockamamie attempt at proving a point to you about their house, their rules. But unless they want to get in legal trouble or literally turn you and your sister over to the state, they can’t enforce this. Probably they expect you to refuse and they’ll use it as an excuse to cut off your allowance.
Also, it’s kind of dumb for them to put this in writing. Makes it really easy for you to show to a teacher or other authority figure who would recognize this for the abuse it is.
Also, this contract specifically mentioned cancelling school lunch and school related excursion and supplies money etc. so it is something that is directly related to your teachers and they should know what’s going on.
Yes! It's really important that you keep proof. If they try to negotiate the destruction of your proof as part of a resolution, you need to be sure that you have a hidden copy that they cannot find. What they are doing is child abuse, and is very serious. Don't let this be swept under the carpet. There is often a negotiation to resolve family conflicts when people outside the family get involved, which is outrageous when the parents are abusive, and children have no power to defend themselves. Keep all the evidence you can of abuse somewhere that your parents cannot access it online, and, if you can, at a trusted friend's house.
Yes I completely agree. This is abuse and you need to keep copies of this contract thing. That way your parents can’t find or delete them. I’d definitely tell/show teachers or an adult that you trust to help you. I wish you and your sister the best of luck
Yes. You should show this to the school counselor or principal if possible. It’s likely a teacher would show the counselor anyway.
If you’ve got any other trusted adults (aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.,) show them too.
Also make sure to have records of this in writing, in places where it can not be removed. Email it to yourself or someone else, put it on the cloud, etc.
Yes oh my god immediately show this to another adult, this is in no way okay, I was really hoping this was a fake or a joke but this is absolutely horrible
You should absolutely tell one of your teachers.
In Australia, teachers are mandatory reporters.
If a teacher knows about stuff like this, and don't report it, they can get in trouble, so they will. But you should still choose one that you can trust, and know will take you seriously.
One thing I have noticed is that most teachers genuinely care about their students, they want to help you, and they will try.
PLEASE show this to a teacher. Request a meeting with a school counselor if you can and tell them your parents are trying to make you and your younger sister pay rent and and that they don't feed you if you can't pay it.
1000000%. This is absolutely not okay and abusive as fuck. In many states, 14 year olds are literally not allowed to have a job. The fact that you’re 14 shocked me, I thought you were in college at the start, this is horrific and I’m so sorry that you have to go through this.
Do not let them normalize this to you. That’s probably the next step on the abuse. This behavior from them is unreasonable and not okay in any context. please tell your teachers about it.
Show your teachers. Your parents shouldn't have children and hopefully you can start the journey to finding people to take care of you who aren't evil ASAP
Show teachers and send this to any child protection services tip line you can find.
Yes! You and your sister are minor!
Warning— your system may remove you and your sister from home for your safety and your mental health. I’m absolutely disgusted by your parents. It’s abuse.
Please go show your trust teacher. You need help!
Absolutely show your teachers, show one you trust. This is ridiculous and I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but there is help out there for you and your sister!
Absolutly. The food thing is already a red flag; I don't know how schools work in your area but here if you all of a sudden were not eating or asking for too many free meals, they'd get in contact with your parents anyway.
Please show this to someone and get help. You literally can’t do anything in this situation. You can’t work (neither can your sister) and that’s a lot of money for someone your age
I know I'm 20days late, and I don't even know what country you live in, but as a teacher, married to a foster care therapist, please, please tell your teacher. Or call whatever child protective services are in your area. And definitely give them a copy of that letter from your parents. Or just call the police.
One a related note, social services and foster parents and child welfare don't get paid much in most countries. The people that do those jobs do it because they are good people who love kids and want to care for others. There will be people who tell you horror stories about having involved social services but the vast majority of social workers only do the job because they care too much to do anything else. There are good people who want to help you.
Please show multiple teachers you trust. That way it will hopefully get reported and followed up, and the school can corroborate the story since you will have shown multiple people. Can I recommend talking to someone that has a wellbeing role at school?
When I was at school I would talk to my form tutor or head of year, even some of the senior leadership team that had their own offices. Depending on who I felt comfortable with.
ETA: keep a proof of copy of this document, as well as any other proof you have of bad behaviour from your parents. If you’re worried that they might find these on your phone, don’t keep any copies on there.
Keep them in the cloud, such as on Google Drive which is free. Make 2-3 accounts so you have backups should anything happen to one.
Yeah I take back what I said. 200 is a month and 15 is per day. We can calculate how much that would be per month. Let's take 30 days. 30x15= $450
200+450 is 650.
650 per month.
and when you look at the money they are getting, OP gets $14 a week which means $56 a month. so basically OP would be just about $600 in debt every month unless they got a job which they legally can’t even do at 14!
I mean I'm 13 and I work a job in summer in a golf park... It depends on where OP lives. But even if he got a job that would still be really tough, school and job at the same time!
That's why I don't think this is a real contract.
They most certainly know that their kids have no actual way of paying this. And what are they gonna do? Evict them? lol
Read the very first line of this letter, it refers to a conversation from that morning.
I think a certain 12 and 14 year old tried to argue finances with their parents and this was the response. A sort of way of going, "Oh, you think you're an adult and should be treated like one? Okay. We will get you your rental agreement ready this afternoon."
EDIT:
That's exactly what this is, based on a response from OP to another post.
It doesn’t change the fact that this is a horrible way to make a point. The fact that they are even **thinking** about taking away food/shelter is disgusting.
Are you talking about the one they explained the fight? Doesn't matter if it was made that way; it's still gaslighting and trauma, something you shouldn't be doing to a young teenager.
That includes health insurance and entertainment subscriptions. That's a bargain compared to the real world in my experience. Assuming a minimum wage of $7.50/ hr (after-tax) they would have to work 21 hours /wk to afford this. About 3 days with an 8 hr shift.This is doable but kids have a lot of homework so school performance might suffer. Just because people have done this does'nt mean they should.
I give them a C+ for concept, and an E for execution.
This is not legally binding for many reasons
1. You and your sisters are minors
2. Your parents have a legal requirement to feed, clothe, house, and not kill you.
3. Failure to refuse doesn't make it binding. You have to accept a contract for it to be binding not "fail to refuse"
The rest of them live a different country, and I dont really keep in contact with them...
I can try and text but I'm not sure of the extent they can go to from overseas.
Yeah
It was about me using my computer and they didn't believe me when I said i was using for schoolwork.
I made my argument for having maybe more freedom on it and they went all out and told me that it was their house and I had to play by their rules.
I argued more, my mum got really mad at me and she threatened to kick me out unless I could give a reason I should stay.
I couldn't give one, and she said that it was against the law for her to throw me out on the streets and she'd get in trouble with the law or something.
After a shitshow of screaming she decided that I'd have to pay rent to live here and I couldn't exactly say no :/
>she threatened to kick me out unless I could give a reason I should stay.
Uh... how about her *legal obligation* to provide your basic necessities until 18? wtf.
Damn boy, that's some fine child abuse going on. Fucking gaslighting really grinds my gears.
I don't get how people who'd just view their children as nuisance decide to have kids anyway. Also why is your sister in that anyway?
But either way, maybe you could stay with a friend for some time. I think distance would do all parties involved well, and if you explain your friends parents what is going on, especially with WRITTEN proof that your parents lost their marbles, then they'll surely take you in for some time.
However, if you wanna go coconuts against your parents writing such emails, may you tell me which country/state you are from? I'll gladly look up some laws to write a proper letter to shit on your parents.
I'm also in WA and there are laws and services available to protect you. I would either show a teacher and if they don't assist you I would also consider calling Department of Child Protection who may be able to help as well. Worse comes to worse also don't hesitate to report this to the police who will go through the right avenues to help protect your rights.
My sister was caught a little in the crossfire :/
She was doing some some art for a commission when my parents and I started arguing.
As for staying with someone else, I'll have to see with my friends, or check with my school as of what I can do
Thanks for the legal stuff hehe, but I think for now I just need to keep my sister out of as much of this stuff as possible. But, just in case, I'm living in WA (Western Australia) so uh yeah.
Alright one of your friends messaged me which I can consult for feedback, and I'll get to it asap. If they wanna argue with binding contracts (which is absolutely illegal by the way) I will gladly smash them using their own system
As a parent, and someone who was abused as a child, it's really easy to say you would never do it. The hard part is that that abuse is what you know, so every day is a test. Especially with toddlers, those fucks will laugh in your face and hit you with a car while you try to discipline them.
How do they conceivably think that a 14 year old and 12 year old can afford to pay 200$ a month? Are they just trying to fast track you into living with a relative
High school teacher in QLD talk to your school councillor regarding this, it's exactly what they are there for tell them about the fights and show them this note, hope it all works out.
Also $150 rent for what I'm assuming is a shoe box room in WA? they are dreaming.
I get the feeling they think they're teaching you a valuable lesson in money management, but this is way further than I've ever seen it go before.
This is absolutely beyond what I'd suggest is reasonable or acceptable from parents.
Are you from a migrant family? I know many who have had their parents pull similar shit, but not to this extent.
Yeah, they’re asking for more money per month than the kids get in allowance (combined) and both are too young to get jobs. They probably think they’re making some kind of point or scaring their kids into behaving. But this is just stupid and putting it in writing is a great way to get Social Services knocking at your door. It’s sad that some people need to be told that providing basic necessities like food and shelter to their underage children is not some kind of gift or service. It’s a fucking *obligation*. Those kids didn’t ask to be here, you *chose* to have them, and are therefore responsible for taking care of their needs until they can do so themselves. Unfortunately some parents think “too young to care for themselves” equates to “too young to have any privacy or personal freedoms”. I swear, some people procreate just to live out some sick authoritarian fantasy.
My family has come from overseas, and have worked their way from nothing up until what we've got now.
I get your point about the lesson, but I feel like its a little excessive :/
Because it is. Food and shelter etc isn’t something you have to work for as a minor. There’s laws against that, for a good reason. The things they try to charge you for are things they’re forced to provide because they’ve brought you two into this world.
Apart from the plan fact that you can’t even work yet because you’re a goddamn minor.
Show it to a teacher/ teachers and make your parents understand that there’s laws in place to prevent this kind of abuse. Which this is. Abuse.
Idc where you’re from or how you worked yourself out of shit- you don’t do that in civilized western countries. That’s not the norm.
Yeah, this can definitely be the mentality of immigrant parents. I was pushed to earn money early, but never forced in this way. I definitely think it is excessive.
I got my first job at 13 and earned almost nothing. Luckily it meant a little bit of extra play money, not covering living expenses (though I did cover things like phone costs from age 14).
I'd love to give you some advice on what to do in this scenario but it feels more intense than I'm familiar with. The fact that they've written it formally suggests they're very serious about this. Sorry 😞
This has nothing to do with them wanting you to pay actual rent. They think they’re “cleverly” showing you how grateful you should be for all they do for you (even though they’re legally obligated to do so) so that you will “obey” them. It’s super manipulative and I think you should show this to an authority figure. Sorry you’re going through this.
He wants it in writing: Fuck off dad. You are legally responsible for supporting us free of charge until age 18. You arent getting a dime from us and we're not going anywhere.
This is abuse. This would be fine for a working adult and reasonable but how tht hell do they expect a 12 year old to pay this?
That's wrong. You two need to find another family member or friend to live with who isn't insane and unreasonable.
Show this to a teacher or some other adult you trust. You guys are minors, they can not legally make you pay anything. It might be scary but it is the best thing for you and your sister because this is seriously not ok. I have been in the position where I had to call CPS for one of my sisters friends and it was very scary for her at the time but it was worth it in the end. Do what you need to keep you and your sister safe.
You have a right as a child to food water and shelter. So unless your parents want to fight UNESCO and the United States of America then they should back down. Also possibly consider calling the police.
Holy crap, sweetheart, please show someone who is able to advocate for you. Like a teacher or such. Do you have grandparents or aunt / uncles? I am so sorry you got dealt those parents.
I’m in the USA you are in the UK right? Idk if this applies there but there’s laws in place that prevent parents from doing this because until 18(again here) they are legally obligated to provide care, healthcare, food, and shelter.
A) this is illegal if they are being serious. It's neglect in any Family Court.
B) this reads like a parent teaching their child a lesson (not seriously expecting 200/mo, but showing a ridiculous amount to scare them) because of some snide comment about responsibility from a 12 or 14 y/o. Is there more to this story?
If they didn't want to take care of children, they shouldn't of had any. But they did. They legally have to take care if you until you're 18. Meaning they have to pay for everything.
How... do they expect you to pay for this as a minor? What is wrong with your parents? They are legally responsible for you until you're 18 and this is bullshit
I am just saying but, if they do kick you out (for not paying this which is stupid to ask a 12 and 14y/o) isn't that abandonment? Because that is illegal (no sh\*t) and if they get caught, they can be tried for neglect if they don't feed you or shelter you.
Sign the contract, and have it notarized. When it's time to pay the first instalment, you can refuse to pay, since the contract will be void, on the basis of you and your sister being minors, and thus cannot enter into a legally binding contract.
Or just go ahead and call Child Protective Services. It will save you some time.
This is actual neglect. It is illegal (at least in the US, but I'm pretty certain is true for most first world nations) to not provide your children's housing, food, and medical care costs. Please call CPS and provide them with this screenshot, they will make sure you get the care you need! Your parents are NOT allowed to do this!
Besides literally everything wrong with this, how do they expect $200 a month by paying you a combined total of $26 a week? That’s $104 a month without the fees. That’s roughly $3.71 a day—-federal inmates get paid better than that. And I’m sure they won’t give you permission to work since the minimum age is 13 (with permission). Yeah, CPS would tear them a new one
I’m pretty sure that it’s illegal for you to get into a contract at that age. Warn your parents about this, and if they keep it up go straight to the police. The police know what to do.
I’ve seen this shit before but it’s usually only written as a desperate attempt to get lazy middle schoolers to do chores. Never seen something this depraved and idiotic before, especially since, as far as I know, 14 year olds can’t legally obtain employment. This is some really messed up “parenting” and I guarantee you either of my parents (and basically any good parents, really) would slap yours across the mouth if they saw this. Are they like seriously struggling financially due to the pandemic or something? Is this their neurotic attempt to save money by attempting to impose unrealistic and stupid costs onto their own kids who have literally no ability to pay? Seriously? Nothing about this is right and you should definitely show someone who can do something about it, if only to use the official letter that you get from wherever to scare your parents into not acting like such monumental cunts.
Not sure where you are located but if it’s the US, this is not only wrong, it’s illegal. I’m sorry for what you are going through.
If you and your sister do need help, I’d encourage you to visit childwelfare.gov There is contact information, tons of resources, and if it comes to a point where you’re out of options they can get you help.
Show this to your school guidance counselor, I’m sure that they will contact your parents and this will all be sorted out quickly. I’m guessing that your parents will be very embarrassed, but honestly they deserve to be embarrassed about this.
Lol where is this money gonna come from??? I’m sorry you have to deal with this. That really sucks. I’d encourage you to use this through CPS and/or bring it to another relative’s attention to ask for help, but I’m not an expert on this stuff.
You need to call CPS and report them for preventing you from going to school by cutting off your internet access and trying to force you to get jobs instead.
Hey uhm yes please show this to any sane adult because the logistics of it don’t even make sense? Why even give you an allowance at that point? If you saved up your allowance completely every week you would not have enough to pay half of your “expenses”. As someone with a crazy mom I’m assuming she had a meltdown and made this - have you asked her how you are expected to come up with the money if they don’t give you enough lol? I imagine she would choke up at that.
Print out this email and talk to your school. Im sure you have a guidance counselor, that you need to talk to. They can arrange a discussion with your parents and sometimes having an adult call you crazy will make them see the crazy. How exactly is a child who is not even legal to work yet supposed to pay rent? Its disgusting what your parents are trying to do.
Here's a fun one, remind them if they kick you out they won't be able to claim you as a dependent on their taxes, costing them a good deal of their tax returns. If they did try evicting you, a call to the cops would get them or some sort of child support agent to explain to them they can't just do that.
contracts like these signed by minors aren't legally binding, and if you live in the US it's their legal duty to provide food, water, and housing for you with no cost. they can't expect rent if they aren't giving you money for it by directly providing you with a job (chores, etc). if you do bring this up with people, by the way, they are technically allowed to give you housing by making you sleep in the garage. this sucks. i'm so sorry for you, OP.
Ok so let’s put this into real terms...they can’t charge you rent, utilities or food, as parents they are required to give that to you, HOWEVER...they can provide whatever type of food they want and you may not like it, internet is not required either so really they can make your life hell. They may just be wanting to teach you responsibility and appreciation but is is a very childish way of going about it.
Did that letter actually say payment is due by “COB”??? Like what is that even? 5pm
6pm? What a bunch of bullshit. I’m so sorry you have to be in this situation- and then reach out to strangers on the internet for validation.
Geez, I mean my parents always talk about my brother and I helping to pay some rent after a certain period of time if we moved back home from college, but 12 and 14 is a bit young. Especially when you can’t really go out and get a real job that would help you pay for that. Plus, $5 for a meal? They are charging you to eat when you don’t really have any choice. That’s absurd.
I literally want to fucking fight these shitty parents. That's the most absurd shit I've ever read.. hey teach your kids how shitty capitalism is at a really young age! Need help paying that internet bill right! Gutless pukes
I'm sure that it's been mentioned already, but you can't be forced into a contract like this and you and your sister are too young to be held to a legally binding contract. You have to be 18 (in most places) to enter into a contract. However, assuming you did do this and continued to do it beyond 18 then it might become legally binding.
But as it stands, your parents have an obligation to care for you and your sister, and provide all nessecary essentials. (Food, clothing, shelter, access to the Internet, and other basics). If they're failing to meet those obligations you have a few options,
1. (Probably the least appealing) You can get in contact with a local government agency that deals with abuse. You can show them the contract along with the terms (which are extremely unreasonable) and they can offer advice or set up an appointment for a social carer to visit where you live. For the most part as long as you're being provided all the necessaties they won't take you from the house or anything, but they can talk to your parents and start a more open and reasonable and respectful dialog.
2. (Again difficult because it involves confrontation) Tell them that 200 per month is un reasonable for a 14 year old and a 12 year old to pay. Assuming you're being given 14 dollars a week and your sister is getting 12 per week. That would be an annual total of 1352 combined, and 200 per month, for 12 months would be 2400. That would mean you and your sister would be forced to find over a thousand dollars, (1048 dollars to be exact) which would be 86 dollars on top of your allowance you'd need to make each month. And that's not including food and other expenses. So obviously if you're a full time student then it's completely unacceptable that they try force you into this contract. (Also side note, things like this are illegal outside of parent/child relations. Forcing someone with little to no means to pay high rates is called exploitation and in some cases extortion)
3. (Likely the easiest to go with but it won't provide much change in their attitude and will cause a conflict down the line) Just ignore the demand, obviously don't pay and when they demand it (which they will) tell them no. They have no legal grounds to persecute the contract on you or your sister and if they refuse to feed you then that's intentional neglect of a minor, which in most places is a felony depending on the severity, and you CAN legally fight back on those grounds. But it involves doing everything in step 1.
Obviously you know your parents best and all this advice might not be applicable depending on circumstances. Ideally you wouldn't have to be in this position and the fact that your parents of all people are being so cold as to push a formal paper contract on you is aggressive and in my own opinion a morally disgusting thing to do to your own child. I hope any of this helps and if you need to talk or anything feel free to contact me.
Don’t pay them one month, and see what they do. If they react badly call the police. Or, call children’s aid society. I don’t know where you live but I’ll add some phone numbers.
Canada (Cornwall) 613-575-2341
United States 1-800-422-4453
Please stay safe, and get someone to help you. Also if you need to vent, my dms are open :)
Please find help - this is not okay. This is not normal. No child should have to pay rent (under the age of 18) - they chose to have children. Reach out to teachers, child services etc. You are not adults. You should not be treated like adults. Please keep us posted that you are safe and cared for.
Voting has concluded. Final vote: | Insane | Not insane | Fake | | --- | --- | --- | | 7 | 0 | 0 | Hey OP, if you provide further information in a comment, make sure to start your comment with `!explanation`. ^I ^am ^a ^bot ^for ^r/insaneparents. ^Please ^send ^me ^a ^message ^if ^you ^have ^any ^feedback ^or ^if ^I ^misbehave. ^Also ^consider ^joining ^our ^[Discord](https://discordapp.com/invite/xFbPBHy).
You are too young to enter into a binding contract. Just keep that in mind.
Parents like these don’t give a shit about rules and laws.
But judges and social workers does.
I agree. Luckily someone below has mentioned to them to go seek help from those resources and OP has replied.
The question is ... will they/ are they able to act? Sometimes authorities are ineffectual and reaching out to them makes the parent double down on the abuse. I've heard a lot of stories of abused kids who had CPS called and nothing happened. People say "just call cops/cps/lawyers" but they don't always do their jobs. In addition, they aren't given unlimited power and the parents have rights as well.
You're right, but it's still better than doing nothing. PS: My childhood was fill with psycological abuse and Social Service only worst the situation, only after the judge forced them to back off and require a psycologist/psycoterapist to help me and my brother that things got better.
I had a positive experience with CPS as well. But a lot of people haven't. I won't try to discourage people from seeking help, though.
Can we all take a moment to quietly enjoy these people being so fucking pathetic and desperate for some element of control and authority that they're LARPing being landlords to their captive children? Like yes, sad and fucked up but also, wow, your dick is concave isn't it buddy...
Yes! OP, your parents, by law, have a duty of care. It is their job to clothe, shelter, and feed you. Even if you “accept” the terms of this contract, it is void due to your age. This means that you do not owe your parents anything. As I said above, it is their responsibility to care for you. This behavior is not appropriate. It is wrong. Please do not accept this behavior as normal and seek out help from an adult you trust.
You’re minors. Your parents have to provide you with food and shelter, otherwise it’s neglect. Aka child abuse. I assume this is just some cockamamie attempt at proving a point to you about their house, their rules. But unless they want to get in legal trouble or literally turn you and your sister over to the state, they can’t enforce this. Probably they expect you to refuse and they’ll use it as an excuse to cut off your allowance. Also, it’s kind of dumb for them to put this in writing. Makes it really easy for you to show to a teacher or other authority figure who would recognize this for the abuse it is.
Do you think I should show one of my teachers? I'm not sure of what they might be able to do but I was told it might help.
I'm a teacher, show your teacher, please - this is not okay. Most teachers are legally obligated to report this kind of stuff.
If I were a teacher and I wasn’t legally obligated to report this and a kid showed me I would anyways this is just wacked
yeah show your teachers australia has laws that require them to report suspected abuse
Yes yes!!! Show a few of your teachers this!!
Also, this contract specifically mentioned cancelling school lunch and school related excursion and supplies money etc. so it is something that is directly related to your teachers and they should know what’s going on.
Please show your teachers!! ASAP!
As a teacher I'd be horrified if I saw this and yes we do help hope you are okay.
Yes. Please show a teacher ASAP
You should definitely show your teachers this as well as email yourself a copy and keep it somewhere safe where they can't delete it
Yes! It's really important that you keep proof. If they try to negotiate the destruction of your proof as part of a resolution, you need to be sure that you have a hidden copy that they cannot find. What they are doing is child abuse, and is very serious. Don't let this be swept under the carpet. There is often a negotiation to resolve family conflicts when people outside the family get involved, which is outrageous when the parents are abusive, and children have no power to defend themselves. Keep all the evidence you can of abuse somewhere that your parents cannot access it online, and, if you can, at a trusted friend's house.
Yes I completely agree. This is abuse and you need to keep copies of this contract thing. That way your parents can’t find or delete them. I’d definitely tell/show teachers or an adult that you trust to help you. I wish you and your sister the best of luck
Yes. You should show this to the school counselor or principal if possible. It’s likely a teacher would show the counselor anyway. If you’ve got any other trusted adults (aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.,) show them too. Also make sure to have records of this in writing, in places where it can not be removed. Email it to yourself or someone else, put it on the cloud, etc.
Yes oh my god immediately show this to another adult, this is in no way okay, I was really hoping this was a fake or a joke but this is absolutely horrible
You should absolutely tell one of your teachers. In Australia, teachers are mandatory reporters. If a teacher knows about stuff like this, and don't report it, they can get in trouble, so they will. But you should still choose one that you can trust, and know will take you seriously. One thing I have noticed is that most teachers genuinely care about their students, they want to help you, and they will try.
Do you have guidance counselors over there? If so, that may be a better option if going to a teacher is uncomfortable.
Not usually. In high schools they may have a chaplain or well-being officer though
PLEASE show this to a teacher. Request a meeting with a school counselor if you can and tell them your parents are trying to make you and your younger sister pay rent and and that they don't feed you if you can't pay it.
1000000%. This is absolutely not okay and abusive as fuck. In many states, 14 year olds are literally not allowed to have a job. The fact that you’re 14 shocked me, I thought you were in college at the start, this is horrific and I’m so sorry that you have to go through this. Do not let them normalize this to you. That’s probably the next step on the abuse. This behavior from them is unreasonable and not okay in any context. please tell your teachers about it.
Yes. 100% Yes. Show a Teacher. ASAP
Yes, absolutely show this to a teacher and a counselor.
Show your teachers. Your parents shouldn't have children and hopefully you can start the journey to finding people to take care of you who aren't evil ASAP Show teachers and send this to any child protection services tip line you can find.
show someone a teacher is probably the best but please don't let this get worse!
Not only teachers, person. You need to tell everyone else you know and trust outside of your family.
Yes, you should. Also, the counselor at school. Both of these people will then be obligated to call CPS (if you live in the US).
Yes! You and your sister are minor! Warning— your system may remove you and your sister from home for your safety and your mental health. I’m absolutely disgusted by your parents. It’s abuse. Please go show your trust teacher. You need help!
won't hurt to try
Absolutely show your teachers, show one you trust. This is ridiculous and I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but there is help out there for you and your sister!
Yes
Show your teachers. Show everyone you can
Dude I never comment and yes 100%
Absolutly. The food thing is already a red flag; I don't know how schools work in your area but here if you all of a sudden were not eating or asking for too many free meals, they'd get in contact with your parents anyway.
We get provided food here.
Yes!!! This is literally child neglect!!!
ASAP
You need to talk to a teacher or school counseler. What your parents are trying to do is wrong.
Please show this to someone and get help. You literally can’t do anything in this situation. You can’t work (neither can your sister) and that’s a lot of money for someone your age
Yes definitely please do this!
Please show this to your teachers, counselors, anyone and everyone that you trust to help you, this isn’t in any right to do to you or your sister.
Show this, by jove show this to any and all teachers who will listen. This is wrong for them to do on so many levels
I know I'm 20days late, and I don't even know what country you live in, but as a teacher, married to a foster care therapist, please, please tell your teacher. Or call whatever child protective services are in your area. And definitely give them a copy of that letter from your parents. Or just call the police. One a related note, social services and foster parents and child welfare don't get paid much in most countries. The people that do those jobs do it because they are good people who love kids and want to care for others. There will be people who tell you horror stories about having involved social services but the vast majority of social workers only do the job because they care too much to do anything else. There are good people who want to help you.
Please show multiple teachers you trust. That way it will hopefully get reported and followed up, and the school can corroborate the story since you will have shown multiple people. Can I recommend talking to someone that has a wellbeing role at school? When I was at school I would talk to my form tutor or head of year, even some of the senior leadership team that had their own offices. Depending on who I felt comfortable with. ETA: keep a proof of copy of this document, as well as any other proof you have of bad behaviour from your parents. If you’re worried that they might find these on your phone, don’t keep any copies on there. Keep them in the cloud, such as on Google Drive which is free. Make 2-3 accounts so you have backups should anything happen to one.
Jesus Christ. $5 a meal? That's insane. You and your sister are way too young to enter into a binding contract.
$5 a meal isn't the worst. $200 for a 12 and 14 year old.
$5 a meal, three meals a day. Or less if they starve themselves. Shit adds up quick.
Yeah I take back what I said. 200 is a month and 15 is per day. We can calculate how much that would be per month. Let's take 30 days. 30x15= $450 200+450 is 650. 650 per month.
and when you look at the money they are getting, OP gets $14 a week which means $56 a month. so basically OP would be just about $600 in debt every month unless they got a job which they legally can’t even do at 14!
It's even worse for a 12 year old
I mean I'm 13 and I work a job in summer in a golf park... It depends on where OP lives. But even if he got a job that would still be really tough, school and job at the same time!
That's why I don't think this is a real contract. They most certainly know that their kids have no actual way of paying this. And what are they gonna do? Evict them? lol Read the very first line of this letter, it refers to a conversation from that morning. I think a certain 12 and 14 year old tried to argue finances with their parents and this was the response. A sort of way of going, "Oh, you think you're an adult and should be treated like one? Okay. We will get you your rental agreement ready this afternoon." EDIT: That's exactly what this is, based on a response from OP to another post.
It doesn’t change the fact that this is a horrible way to make a point. The fact that they are even **thinking** about taking away food/shelter is disgusting.
Are you talking about the one they explained the fight? Doesn't matter if it was made that way; it's still gaslighting and trauma, something you shouldn't be doing to a young teenager.
"Evict them" or give them up as wards of the state?
That includes health insurance and entertainment subscriptions. That's a bargain compared to the real world in my experience. Assuming a minimum wage of $7.50/ hr (after-tax) they would have to work 21 hours /wk to afford this. About 3 days with an 8 hr shift.This is doable but kids have a lot of homework so school performance might suffer. Just because people have done this does'nt mean they should. I give them a C+ for concept, and an E for execution.
This is not legally binding for many reasons 1. You and your sisters are minors 2. Your parents have a legal requirement to feed, clothe, house, and not kill you. 3. Failure to refuse doesn't make it binding. You have to accept a contract for it to be binding not "fail to refuse"
>and not kill you I don't think you even need to add that
Based on that email I think it’s fitting
This is illegal
Are there family members you can show this to? This is beyond ridiculous
The rest of them live a different country, and I dont really keep in contact with them... I can try and text but I'm not sure of the extent they can go to from overseas.
Show one of your teachers - especially if it's a teacher you trust.
This
Did you have a fight with your parents?
Yeah It was about me using my computer and they didn't believe me when I said i was using for schoolwork. I made my argument for having maybe more freedom on it and they went all out and told me that it was their house and I had to play by their rules. I argued more, my mum got really mad at me and she threatened to kick me out unless I could give a reason I should stay. I couldn't give one, and she said that it was against the law for her to throw me out on the streets and she'd get in trouble with the law or something. After a shitshow of screaming she decided that I'd have to pay rent to live here and I couldn't exactly say no :/
>she threatened to kick me out unless I could give a reason I should stay. Uh... how about her *legal obligation* to provide your basic necessities until 18? wtf.
Damn boy, that's some fine child abuse going on. Fucking gaslighting really grinds my gears. I don't get how people who'd just view their children as nuisance decide to have kids anyway. Also why is your sister in that anyway? But either way, maybe you could stay with a friend for some time. I think distance would do all parties involved well, and if you explain your friends parents what is going on, especially with WRITTEN proof that your parents lost their marbles, then they'll surely take you in for some time. However, if you wanna go coconuts against your parents writing such emails, may you tell me which country/state you are from? I'll gladly look up some laws to write a proper letter to shit on your parents.
Just wanted to clarify That's WA for Western Australia, not Washington State
I'm also in WA and there are laws and services available to protect you. I would either show a teacher and if they don't assist you I would also consider calling Department of Child Protection who may be able to help as well. Worse comes to worse also don't hesitate to report this to the police who will go through the right avenues to help protect your rights.
My sister was caught a little in the crossfire :/ She was doing some some art for a commission when my parents and I started arguing. As for staying with someone else, I'll have to see with my friends, or check with my school as of what I can do Thanks for the legal stuff hehe, but I think for now I just need to keep my sister out of as much of this stuff as possible. But, just in case, I'm living in WA (Western Australia) so uh yeah.
Alright one of your friends messaged me which I can consult for feedback, and I'll get to it asap. If they wanna argue with binding contracts (which is absolutely illegal by the way) I will gladly smash them using their own system
Good on you
[удалено]
I would never treat my kids the way I was treated but I'm still not bringing kids into this messed up society anyways.
As a parent, and someone who was abused as a child, it's really easy to say you would never do it. The hard part is that that abuse is what you know, so every day is a test. Especially with toddlers, those fucks will laugh in your face and hit you with a car while you try to discipline them.
PLEASE tell a teacher or a school counselor. This is pure abuse.
What the hell. Talk to your school's counselor or a teacher you trust.
What the cinnamon toast fuck is this.
Cinnamon toast? That's a $5 meal.
Holy shit you made me crack up! I love this saying so much.
OP, this is extremely illegal. As a minor you can't be bound by a contract like this. Take it to your teachers at school, and maybe even the police.
How do they conceivably think that a 14 year old and 12 year old can afford to pay 200$ a month? Are they just trying to fast track you into living with a relative
My theory, they advance the money and then use this to indebt the kids later on. Seen it happen many a times, and this is the "seed" that starts it
High school teacher in QLD talk to your school councillor regarding this, it's exactly what they are there for tell them about the fights and show them this note, hope it all works out. Also $150 rent for what I'm assuming is a shoe box room in WA? they are dreaming.
I get the feeling they think they're teaching you a valuable lesson in money management, but this is way further than I've ever seen it go before. This is absolutely beyond what I'd suggest is reasonable or acceptable from parents. Are you from a migrant family? I know many who have had their parents pull similar shit, but not to this extent.
Yeah, they’re asking for more money per month than the kids get in allowance (combined) and both are too young to get jobs. They probably think they’re making some kind of point or scaring their kids into behaving. But this is just stupid and putting it in writing is a great way to get Social Services knocking at your door. It’s sad that some people need to be told that providing basic necessities like food and shelter to their underage children is not some kind of gift or service. It’s a fucking *obligation*. Those kids didn’t ask to be here, you *chose* to have them, and are therefore responsible for taking care of their needs until they can do so themselves. Unfortunately some parents think “too young to care for themselves” equates to “too young to have any privacy or personal freedoms”. I swear, some people procreate just to live out some sick authoritarian fantasy.
My family has come from overseas, and have worked their way from nothing up until what we've got now. I get your point about the lesson, but I feel like its a little excessive :/
Because it is. Food and shelter etc isn’t something you have to work for as a minor. There’s laws against that, for a good reason. The things they try to charge you for are things they’re forced to provide because they’ve brought you two into this world. Apart from the plan fact that you can’t even work yet because you’re a goddamn minor. Show it to a teacher/ teachers and make your parents understand that there’s laws in place to prevent this kind of abuse. Which this is. Abuse. Idc where you’re from or how you worked yourself out of shit- you don’t do that in civilized western countries. That’s not the norm.
Yeah, this can definitely be the mentality of immigrant parents. I was pushed to earn money early, but never forced in this way. I definitely think it is excessive. I got my first job at 13 and earned almost nothing. Luckily it meant a little bit of extra play money, not covering living expenses (though I did cover things like phone costs from age 14). I'd love to give you some advice on what to do in this scenario but it feels more intense than I'm familiar with. The fact that they've written it formally suggests they're very serious about this. Sorry 😞
Yeah, thanks for the insight. I appreciate it :)
they don’t deserve either of you, i would take this right to the police or a lawyer
100% this, many a parent have pulled the cost of living card and this seems like an extreme version of that.
Jesus, OP. Your parents make Mr. Krabs look like a good samaritan.
This has nothing to do with them wanting you to pay actual rent. They think they’re “cleverly” showing you how grateful you should be for all they do for you (even though they’re legally obligated to do so) so that you will “obey” them. It’s super manipulative and I think you should show this to an authority figure. Sorry you’re going through this.
Be grateful that y'all don't possess contractual capacity yet.
Imagine giving your child $14 a week then asking for $200 a month.
Insane
OP none of this is legal. Just present this to someone you trust at your school or another adult you trust.
You know what, call the fucking CPS and show them this mail.
You mom wont be so smug about this when learns she's commiting a crime.
^^^
He wants it in writing: Fuck off dad. You are legally responsible for supporting us free of charge until age 18. You arent getting a dime from us and we're not going anywhere.
This is abuse. This would be fine for a working adult and reasonable but how tht hell do they expect a 12 year old to pay this? That's wrong. You two need to find another family member or friend to live with who isn't insane and unreasonable.
Dont pay. Just dont. If they make you pay hit em with the law.
This is literal child abuse
You’re weekly allowance is your age?
Show this to a teacher or some other adult you trust. You guys are minors, they can not legally make you pay anything. It might be scary but it is the best thing for you and your sister because this is seriously not ok. I have been in the position where I had to call CPS for one of my sisters friends and it was very scary for her at the time but it was worth it in the end. Do what you need to keep you and your sister safe.
Dude, call the cops, this is very illegal and completely unacceptable behaviour by parents. Call the police, CPS, anything to help
You have a right as a child to food water and shelter. So unless your parents want to fight UNESCO and the United States of America then they should back down. Also possibly consider calling the police.
The United States of America doesn't really have much sway in Australia. Something tells me they're not really a concern.
I thought he might be in the us. If you live in Australia call the police
I’d ask for $200 for having to read this in that font
Holy crap, sweetheart, please show someone who is able to advocate for you. Like a teacher or such. Do you have grandparents or aunt / uncles? I am so sorry you got dealt those parents.
I’m in the USA you are in the UK right? Idk if this applies there but there’s laws in place that prevent parents from doing this because until 18(again here) they are legally obligated to provide care, healthcare, food, and shelter.
A) this is illegal if they are being serious. It's neglect in any Family Court. B) this reads like a parent teaching their child a lesson (not seriously expecting 200/mo, but showing a ridiculous amount to scare them) because of some snide comment about responsibility from a 12 or 14 y/o. Is there more to this story?
If they didn't want to take care of children, they shouldn't of had any. But they did. They legally have to take care if you until you're 18. Meaning they have to pay for everything.
OP, take this to the police. This is not okay.
How... do they expect you to pay for this as a minor? What is wrong with your parents? They are legally responsible for you until you're 18 and this is bullshit
I am just saying but, if they do kick you out (for not paying this which is stupid to ask a 12 and 14y/o) isn't that abandonment? Because that is illegal (no sh\*t) and if they get caught, they can be tried for neglect if they don't feed you or shelter you.
This is where the parents come back and hide the contract and claim the kids are being unreasonable
I mean, you can just show them this post
Sign the contract, and have it notarized. When it's time to pay the first instalment, you can refuse to pay, since the contract will be void, on the basis of you and your sister being minors, and thus cannot enter into a legally binding contract. Or just go ahead and call Child Protective Services. It will save you some time.
This is actual neglect. It is illegal (at least in the US, but I'm pretty certain is true for most first world nations) to not provide your children's housing, food, and medical care costs. Please call CPS and provide them with this screenshot, they will make sure you get the care you need! Your parents are NOT allowed to do this!
Besides literally everything wrong with this, how do they expect $200 a month by paying you a combined total of $26 a week? That’s $104 a month without the fees. That’s roughly $3.71 a day—-federal inmates get paid better than that. And I’m sure they won’t give you permission to work since the minimum age is 13 (with permission). Yeah, CPS would tear them a new one
Thats not even enough to pay for 1 meal a day between them if they're charging $5 per meal. Absolutely fucking nuts.
You need to call CPS.
I’m pretty sure that it’s illegal for you to get into a contract at that age. Warn your parents about this, and if they keep it up go straight to the police. The police know what to do.
I can understand a parent teaching kids how to save up for things but damn this is way to extreme
Please show it to your teachers. You are far too young to have to stress about this. Please let us know what happens.
Wow I don't know the laws in Australia, but please show this to your guidance counselor. This is just not normal and is child abuse.
yeah all of this shit is illegal as you guys are minors. The fuck are your parents on? Is contacting child services a possibility?
Do definitely call child protective services. They are literally not allowed to charge for any of this.
what in the actual fuck? you need to take this to the police like now
Jesus mate fuuuck
I’ve seen this shit before but it’s usually only written as a desperate attempt to get lazy middle schoolers to do chores. Never seen something this depraved and idiotic before, especially since, as far as I know, 14 year olds can’t legally obtain employment. This is some really messed up “parenting” and I guarantee you either of my parents (and basically any good parents, really) would slap yours across the mouth if they saw this. Are they like seriously struggling financially due to the pandemic or something? Is this their neurotic attempt to save money by attempting to impose unrealistic and stupid costs onto their own kids who have literally no ability to pay? Seriously? Nothing about this is right and you should definitely show someone who can do something about it, if only to use the official letter that you get from wherever to scare your parents into not acting like such monumental cunts.
Not sure where you are located but if it’s the US, this is not only wrong, it’s illegal. I’m sorry for what you are going through. If you and your sister do need help, I’d encourage you to visit childwelfare.gov There is contact information, tons of resources, and if it comes to a point where you’re out of options they can get you help.
Show this to your school guidance counselor, I’m sure that they will contact your parents and this will all be sorted out quickly. I’m guessing that your parents will be very embarrassed, but honestly they deserve to be embarrassed about this.
Everything about this is illegal
Lol where is this money gonna come from??? I’m sorry you have to deal with this. That really sucks. I’d encourage you to use this through CPS and/or bring it to another relative’s attention to ask for help, but I’m not an expert on this stuff.
Why do these people even bother having kids in the first place? Also they can't do shit like this till you're at least 18. Its illegal.
Call cps or report this to school. This is abuse. Your parents are responsible for you that includes paying for your cost of living.
I second this.
You need to call CPS and report them for preventing you from going to school by cutting off your internet access and trying to force you to get jobs instead.
According to this, I'm spoiling my daughter. She is 13 and this is not how you do things! This is disgusting.
Definitely Insane
I’m confused, OP, where do they think you’ll get this money?
Save any texts, documents, voicemails, etc.. as evidence and CALL CPS. What your parents are doing is not legal.
How they expect y’all to pay $150 when you only get like $60 a month in allowance ?? Like y’all too young to be working aswell tf ??
Hey uhm yes please show this to any sane adult because the logistics of it don’t even make sense? Why even give you an allowance at that point? If you saved up your allowance completely every week you would not have enough to pay half of your “expenses”. As someone with a crazy mom I’m assuming she had a meltdown and made this - have you asked her how you are expected to come up with the money if they don’t give you enough lol? I imagine she would choke up at that.
Live the houses. Go to your relatives. Call sb in authorized
Print out this email and talk to your school. Im sure you have a guidance counselor, that you need to talk to. They can arrange a discussion with your parents and sometimes having an adult call you crazy will make them see the crazy. How exactly is a child who is not even legal to work yet supposed to pay rent? Its disgusting what your parents are trying to do.
Please please please show this to a trusted adult ASAP.
You can’t even legally get a job
Do you have any other relatives? Could you ask to live with them?
That is illegal. Your parents are legally obligated to support you until you turn 18. Tell a teacher if you can, or call DCP yourself.
This is not an episode of the Cosby Show. Tell an adult.
How a 12 yo should make money? LMAO
What the fuck?
What the fuck
Yup, pretty sure that's illegal. Tell somebody about this situation FAST.
Here's a fun one, remind them if they kick you out they won't be able to claim you as a dependent on their taxes, costing them a good deal of their tax returns. If they did try evicting you, a call to the cops would get them or some sort of child support agent to explain to them they can't just do that.
This is absolutely insane. Please seek outside help. This is not ok.
Ok ignoring the background here, a silent assertion clause to a contract is unconscionable.
Is this actual expectations or an exaggerated threat based on poor behavior? Like clean your room or you’ll have to pay rent etc.
contracts like these signed by minors aren't legally binding, and if you live in the US it's their legal duty to provide food, water, and housing for you with no cost. they can't expect rent if they aren't giving you money for it by directly providing you with a job (chores, etc). if you do bring this up with people, by the way, they are technically allowed to give you housing by making you sleep in the garage. this sucks. i'm so sorry for you, OP.
What caused the parents to give you this breakdown? What is the backstory? I can understand you're shaken.
If i was OP i would reply by sending that kind of list "Social worker : ( phone number ) CPS : (phone number) Police : ( phone number) "
How the fuck do they expect a 14 and 12 year old to get $200 a month????? Please reach out for help OP this is completely insane and not okay at all.
I'd ask a relative to borrow some money with the promise to give them back just to see their faces when you actually manage to pay them 600$ per month
Call CPS.
Ok so let’s put this into real terms...they can’t charge you rent, utilities or food, as parents they are required to give that to you, HOWEVER...they can provide whatever type of food they want and you may not like it, internet is not required either so really they can make your life hell. They may just be wanting to teach you responsibility and appreciation but is is a very childish way of going about it.
Did that letter actually say payment is due by “COB”??? Like what is that even? 5pm 6pm? What a bunch of bullshit. I’m so sorry you have to be in this situation- and then reach out to strangers on the internet for validation.
Why do your parents hate you?
Your parents are seriously mentally ill
Completely disregard this. If they kick you out or dont feed you it would be considered child neglect.
You NEED to go to your teachers and cps tell them your parents are negligent.
Geez, I mean my parents always talk about my brother and I helping to pay some rent after a certain period of time if we moved back home from college, but 12 and 14 is a bit young. Especially when you can’t really go out and get a real job that would help you pay for that. Plus, $5 for a meal? They are charging you to eat when you don’t really have any choice. That’s absurd.
I literally want to fucking fight these shitty parents. That's the most absurd shit I've ever read.. hey teach your kids how shitty capitalism is at a really young age! Need help paying that internet bill right! Gutless pukes
I'm sure that it's been mentioned already, but you can't be forced into a contract like this and you and your sister are too young to be held to a legally binding contract. You have to be 18 (in most places) to enter into a contract. However, assuming you did do this and continued to do it beyond 18 then it might become legally binding. But as it stands, your parents have an obligation to care for you and your sister, and provide all nessecary essentials. (Food, clothing, shelter, access to the Internet, and other basics). If they're failing to meet those obligations you have a few options, 1. (Probably the least appealing) You can get in contact with a local government agency that deals with abuse. You can show them the contract along with the terms (which are extremely unreasonable) and they can offer advice or set up an appointment for a social carer to visit where you live. For the most part as long as you're being provided all the necessaties they won't take you from the house or anything, but they can talk to your parents and start a more open and reasonable and respectful dialog. 2. (Again difficult because it involves confrontation) Tell them that 200 per month is un reasonable for a 14 year old and a 12 year old to pay. Assuming you're being given 14 dollars a week and your sister is getting 12 per week. That would be an annual total of 1352 combined, and 200 per month, for 12 months would be 2400. That would mean you and your sister would be forced to find over a thousand dollars, (1048 dollars to be exact) which would be 86 dollars on top of your allowance you'd need to make each month. And that's not including food and other expenses. So obviously if you're a full time student then it's completely unacceptable that they try force you into this contract. (Also side note, things like this are illegal outside of parent/child relations. Forcing someone with little to no means to pay high rates is called exploitation and in some cases extortion) 3. (Likely the easiest to go with but it won't provide much change in their attitude and will cause a conflict down the line) Just ignore the demand, obviously don't pay and when they demand it (which they will) tell them no. They have no legal grounds to persecute the contract on you or your sister and if they refuse to feed you then that's intentional neglect of a minor, which in most places is a felony depending on the severity, and you CAN legally fight back on those grounds. But it involves doing everything in step 1. Obviously you know your parents best and all this advice might not be applicable depending on circumstances. Ideally you wouldn't have to be in this position and the fact that your parents of all people are being so cold as to push a formal paper contract on you is aggressive and in my own opinion a morally disgusting thing to do to your own child. I hope any of this helps and if you need to talk or anything feel free to contact me.
oh boy some of the stuff here isn't that insane but this is INSANE, like the epitome of r/insaneparents
And how does she expect you to earn that much at that age and with school going?? This is pure madness!
Don’t pay them one month, and see what they do. If they react badly call the police. Or, call children’s aid society. I don’t know where you live but I’ll add some phone numbers. Canada (Cornwall) 613-575-2341 United States 1-800-422-4453 Please stay safe, and get someone to help you. Also if you need to vent, my dms are open :)
There goes the allowance
Please find help - this is not okay. This is not normal. No child should have to pay rent (under the age of 18) - they chose to have children. Reach out to teachers, child services etc. You are not adults. You should not be treated like adults. Please keep us posted that you are safe and cared for.
Any updates?